I would also like to boldly state that Greco-Roman wrestling, Western European as well as American boxing and European fencing as well as American catch wrestling and of course French savate are all Western martial arts!
@@dragoncrusader3356 please please please as a fellow adult in 2021 if you're going to discuss hema don't call someone bro! I have an Irish name recognize that okay I'm not a bro!
@@williambreen4290 Wait a minute !! are you get mad of me? im proud of EU martial art . and so you are. right? i'm just remind you forgot the name you listed, not mocking your comment. Im American. if "bro" not fit for your culture . so i will take it back . and maybe im taking critical guilty cuz cant realize where is hard Irish and where is not . do i miss new TH-cam standard. im 30 does it count still young in 2021? if you are older . im sory cuz i thought i have some gracefull react comment like before when im discuss medieval fighting stratergy but not here . if you have a name . yes i saw it. but im stupid to be used men to men the friendly style to wrong place
@@dragoncrusader3356 okay listen I apologize perhaps maybe I was being a jerk and I realize that please excuse me for being rude I sincerely apologize! That was a very childish response from me and I am ashamed of my behavior! Sometimes I become irritated with adult men in any society they keep using the word bro LOL please excuse me my friend I wish you the best of luck in your training! Strength and honor! And honest to God I think historical European martial arts are a very fascinating subject that unfortunately gets overlooked a lot by Asian martial arts! I think all forms of wrestling as well as French savate and Western pugilism and Western Weaponry tactics are absolutely effective and awesome! Once again I would like to be apologetic for my rude and childish response!
@@williambreen4290 Glad to heard it. friend . dont worry. im welcome brothers and sisters from EU knows more about EU classic . btw im a half Caucasian and Asian. About the Asian martial art . i think it became commercialization from long time ago and everybody have alot of chance to contact to it , that why we are forgot EU martial and being overlooked. and Savate have lost 100 years cuz of EU civil war to ressrected (about XVII - XIX) . it named Savate d'Rue
Finally I found someone talking about the French boxing gloves... Would you please mention them in detail about the colors and their arrangement so that everyone who passes by here can benefit from it. 🙏🌹. Of course, I am the first to be happy
@@matarahmadal_atif9359 1) Blue 2) green 3) red 4) white 5) yellow Examen before the professor After there is two sorts of silver glove. I. ) Technical : Silver glove 1 degre Silver glove 2 degre Silver glove 3 degre This one can be obtened before ligue or your fédération. II. Fight : Bronze glove Sliver glove 1 degre Silver glove 2 degre Silver glove 3 degre Silver glove 4 degre Silver glove 5 degre This one can only be win thanks points won in fight. 3 Pts victory, 1 pts lost, 2 pts draw. Bronze need 10pts. Silver 1 degre need 10 pts, 2 degree 15 pts, 3 degree 20 pts, after don't remember. This one is the most difficult. Not comparison with the other (technical). Fight is so tough my friend!
@@matarahmadal_atif9359 thanks, know that there is also gold glove but this one hasn't comparison with skill in savate. It's just honorific tittle giving by federation. It's a reward.
Savate is really one of the most effective martial arts in the world. That said, there are legitimate Western martial arts. Savate is a great sport and that can't be denied. But it is real.
Great video, informative and concise but also thought provoking... Savate is all encompassing and has appeal to so many sections of society. The fact that even within the modern "combat sport" evolution of the original, more street self defense based, style, there are 3 distinct (and quite different) divisions Assaut - controlled contact, point fighting, Combat - full contact and governed by the distancing, technique and duration rules of Savate Savate Pro - where Savate fighters get the opportunity to compete against other styles of kickboxing in a full contact bout but with adapted rules to allow competitors from other kick / punch styles to enter the affray... Then, as you mention, there are the associated disciplines of Canne de combat, (Cane fencing), Grand baton (staff / bo fighting), Savate Defense,(street self defense including chokes, throws, locks and disarming techniques to deal with weapons) Lutte Parisian (rarely seen wrestling & throw techniques) and Savate Forme (a non contact, cardio fitness style often performed to music, similar to "Tai Bo", circuit training or general aerobics classes. It is even possible to combine some of the aspects of savate in a sporting but competitive way Panache - Combination of Canne de combat with some kick techniques The idea of "Panache is what attracted me to the art...a friend had told me there was a "sport" that allowed punching, kicking and hitting with a stick !! Almost everyone can enjoy Savate, it is open to all ages and both genders. It can be described as a martial art, a combat sport or a fun way to stay fit, meet people and bash them up...lol
Thank you for sharing your research. Your enthusiasm is inspiring and I have learned so much more about Savate in such a short video. I think definitions and labels may depend on your personal perspective and training focus. Yes, I find your thoughts interesting and inclusive; I like the idea of working together and promoting peace: that in a view of sport "competition", rather than making one win and one lose, it is possible to have harmony resulting in both being winners.
A concise, superbly presented overview, Thank You James. In my opinion it is def a martial art, a Western striking form that can more than hold its own against the better know oriental striking arts. Its fluid round based scoring and utilization of footware sets it well apart from its opposition. The techniques present are not flashy or numerous, but undoubtedly effective. To watch a well practised exponent is in my opinion art in motion.
Great video as always. I'd define Savate Boxe Francaise (both combat and assaut) and la Canne de combat as a combat sports , however I think the defense system as Savate de rue o savate defense may be more 'martial' as you defined in this video. If we consider the term 'martial' as origined for combat/war and 'art' as the continuous development and improvement of a technique of something then Savate, included all the branches, as a Western martial art along with Wrestling, Boxing and Pankration.
It's an interesting question or debate that I have been having since the eighties, and I would say yes it is a full martial art but understand some prefer to call it a sport. My Savate has been called nasty Savate by some practitioners, but that's because my interest is self-defence and has a slightly different flavour because that is the flavour and interest my coach and I had. I certainly can appreciate the noble sportspeople and love to watch the back and forth of a great match. I guess our Savate can be whatever we want it to be on an individual level. Like the channel and have subscribed.
I used to pratice kung fu, tae kwon do and savate. My opinion: the difference between combat sport and martial art isn't in the style but in the way you practice
@@LondonSavate my tae kwon do teacher was very intersted in competion, so we work cardio and few techniques but very effective in competition. In the other side, my savate teacher (who teached also canne) gave us many techniques and strategies, searching for the perfect mouvement. I think his approach was more martial. By the way the sparring rules of savate made my kung fu way better!
@@Tibosan2 So you would consider sport / fitness less 'martial' and strategy and technique more so? That could work. I'd be interested to hear more about how the sparring rules help your kung fu, either here or elsewhere :) Nice.
@@LondonSavate I don't think there's a line between sport and martial art. The difference is in the goal you want to reach. Sport is about competition (even agains't yourself), martial art is about beating an ennemy by many way as possible. If I do push-ups to be able to punch or to be fit, it's still push-ups. But this goal can modify the way you teach, learn and train. When I used to practice at the savate gym, I do for martial art but my partner was possibly here for sport. We practice same exercices but not for the same purpose. I don't want to be rude or disrespectful with my kung fu teachers but they made us practice in a very traditionnal way, sparring was only for the higher level. When I push a savate gym's door, after an hour of lesson, I had my gloves up for a sparring session: even with years of kung fu, I had my ass kicked by a kid who had under a year of practice. I simply didn't have the basics of fighting (mouvement, timing, being beaten! ...). The savate sparring skills (strategie, sequences, light foot stance, ...) suit more for skill transposition with kung fu than muay thai or kick boxing for exemple. Isn't there a chinese organisation named "Kung Fu World Cup" which is in fact a Savate pro championship? Funniest of this story: I'm french and I spent more than 20 years seeking martial art in Orient while It was probaly already in my own culture ...
"Art" in martial art is used in the original Latin meaning which is "skill" or "craft". It could be considered synonymous with "fighting skill", which could include any high level fighting skill. Since no one calls shooting or air combat a martial art, we can take it to mean any melee fighting skills: wrestling, striking, submissions or melee weaponry.
I think this is a good point. As with the other term 'martial' we have to decide whether the derivation/root or the current usage is more relevant, but this is certainly part of the consideration.
@@LondonSavate Mars was the god of everything military, but he was also the god of warriors and weapons. Boxing, wrestling and fighting with hand weapons are the oldest forms of human combat, so I would say that the skills of boxing/savate comprise a martial art and the competitions and associated rules done in front of spectators are the sport. I think a martial art ceases to be a martial art and becomes only a sport when the techniques become abstract or entirely useless for fighting or outside a sport context. Thus freestyle wrestling would be a martial art while arm wrestling is not. Modern fencing, which has almost nothing to do with real swordfighting, is probably only a sport while classical fencing and HEMA are true martial arts.
Pankration originated between 2000 BC and 7th century BC, included kicks, knees, punches, elbows, wrestling and grappling, and originated from Ancient Greece. Also had boxing, kickboxing (pyx lax), and wrestling. They fought differently because usually the "area" they fought was wet sand, so footwork was slower. Pankration stopped being widely practiced in 393 AD, due to Theodosius stoppage of the Ancient Olympic Games, and Philosophical schools in the Eastern Romam Empire (Byzantium). The stance of pankratium was very similar to Muay Thai but with more extended hands and knees more bend (to balance between striking and grappling)
These methods included among others the periodization of training; a wealth of regimens for the development of strength, speed-strength, speed, stamina, and endurance; specialized training for the different stages of competition (i.e., for anō pankration and katō pankration), and methods for learning and engraining techniques. Among the multitude of the latter were also training tools that appear to be very similar to Asian martial arts forms or kata, and were known as cheironomia (χειρονομία) and anapale (ἀναπάλη). Punching bags (kōrykos κώρυκος "leather sack") of different sizes and dummies were used for striking practice as well as for the hardening of the body and limbs. Nutrition, massage, and other recovery techniques were used very actively by pankratiasts.
European HEMA is a set of martial arts, Lusitanian fencing or stick game Portuguese is martial art, zipota from Spain is martial art! Capoeira Brasil is martial art.
A very interesting video James, I initially had the idea that martial arts were any codified system of fighting, including styles some might not consider martial arts, such as boxing and wrestling. The connection to budo from the term "martial art" was very interesting as well. I am always skeptical about the idea that a martial art has to have an outlined philosophy and connection to eastern cultures and ideas, with even old karate masters dismissing this idea, such as mikio yahara, saying "my philosophy is to knock my opponent out with a single blow", which interestingly reads more like a Conor McGregor quote than an old karate master's. I did also like the tie in with the sporting attitude and values of sportsmanship and competition as a means of self-mastery. Great video
Thanks for the thoughtful response. If we ever get to the stage of needing to quoting MacGregor as philosopher we might need to take stock ;) But I agree with the idea that directness is generally a good sign and it can usually be found in the more useful philosophies - for example, Zen buddhism or Stoicism (I recently wrote a piece on Stoic Boxing if you are interested modernstoicism.com/on-anger-and-impulse-control-in-boxing/)
A very interesting video, thank you for producing it. There’s a lot to consider but one jumping out right now is on the methods of practice. You mentioned dangerous techniques done slowly or techniques made safe done at full speed. As Kata is such a large part of some MA and both methods you mentioned are partner based, would you consider Kata/Shadow Fighting as a third stand alone category or simply a training tool, a part of the process?
Hi, I'd say kata fits right in to that idea. You can do full-speed practice of dangerous technique, just without a partner. Another way to train dangerous techniques. Thanks for watching!
In swedish the term for combat sport is more common than the term for martial arts, so it's used to describe everything basically. In english it's martial arts that's the common term so that's what everyone uses. That's how I see it anyways.
Interesting. The accidents of language are often more important for the explanation than the things themselves. Are you part of Sweden Savate (have we met?)
First of all as an avid historian or an individual who likes history in general rather I would like to start by saying that it's not fair for a western system of established combat and self-defense as well as an established spectator sport not to be considered a martial art! I would like people to understand that the term martial art was actually a western 17th century English reference for people participating in the Mastery of fencing! The term martial art is not what all you Asian Kung Fu nerds think! Boxe Francaise savate was a collection of techniques perfected by Frenchman who had the testicular fortitude to experience life and travel abroad all over Asia especially and particularly Indochina and gained technical expertise from observation through other cultures! They brought their experience back to France and perfected something that is highly effective and they don't have to stand on a wooden post for 5 hours and practice breathing techniques like they're some fucking tiger! These Frenchmen know who they are and they will kick you upside your head before you can blink or breathe! You better believe savate is a martial art!
Thanks for watching William. Great to meet an avid Savate enthusiast. Yes, I agree and make the point that 'martial art' is clearly a western term, so you can call Savate a martial art with full justification. (I read that it was used by as early as 1500s - do you have a source for that?) Thankfully, I have trained with - and sometimes beaten - those Frenchmen you talk about. Great fight art! Although I think they will claim it originated in France - I haven't seen any historical evidence of it being imported, have you seen any source documents on that?
@@LondonSavate Thank you very much James for the accurate and engaging presentation. Savate is definitely a martial art and a form of communication. About fencing and duelling legal aspects, there are plenty of 16th century Italian manuals talking about 'art of war' (arte della guerra) or similar definitions (Camillo Agrippa's one perhaps is the most famous for the beautiful images, although he defined it a 'science of arms' not an 'art'. archive.org/details/trattatodiscient00agri/page/n16/mode/1up). Also, here you can find a treatise in English, by an Italian master, printed in 1595 referring to 'Martial affairs' or 'art Military'. www.academia.edu/34114011/Vincentio_Saviolo_His_Practise_in_two_books_modernized_typeface_annotated_vocabulary_ver_1_1_pdf
@@LondonSavate well I think it's also important to note that early contests between French foot Fighters and English bare-knuckle boxers we're very interesting and had mixed outcomes with the Englishmen winning and sometimes the Frenchman winning. Later on I believe the French realized the importance of English pugilism therefore adding it to their already-established kicking techniques giving birth to boxe francais! I am absolutely fascinated with Western martial arts as well as Eastern but I think enough Eastern dogmatic crap has been shoved up everyone's ass and it's time to explore something new and different that has always been right under our nose especially based on the fact that if you have European blood you owe it to yourself to research something fascinating that your predecessors developed.
@@williambreen4290 I think more people should watch a video by Jesse Enkamp, about karate being influenced by savate :) It was strange and refreshing to learn how japanese fighters incorporated savate techniqoues in karate. I agree that too many believe in martial arts being rooted in asia, which is complete bullshit (no disrespect to any of these arts of course).
What a great video . Thank you for taking the time to make these video..i have 36 yrs training in martial arts and ive always wanted to study savate but there are no folks in NYC who are Savatuers..
the term martial arts is an English term, first arrived in the late 1500s if I remember correctly. It is derived from Latin and means the arts of Mars; Mars being the Roman God of war whose Greek equivalent is Aries. In the term martial arts don't think of art as fine art; like portraits in oils on a canvas. Instead think of art as in artisan; like a methodology of hand made furniture making. In other words art in martial art describes a methodology for the martial. Also war does not necessarily have to be a large scale conflict it can be small scale look at definition 2a. Even a one-on-one street fight could be considered war under this definition. Definition of war (Entry 1 of 4) 1a(1): a state of usually open and declared armed hostile conflict between states or nations (2): a period of such armed conflict (3): STATE OF WAR b: the art or science of warfare c(1)obsolete : weapons and equipment for war (2)archaic : soldiers armed and equipped for war 2a: a state of hostility, conflict, or antagonism b: a struggle or competition between opposing forces or for a particular end
From James philosophy of controlled sparring and when I got into a situation with 6 youths, equipt with my London savate boxing lessons I was able to control the power of my kicks to simply avoid further conflict😝
War does not necessarily have to be a large scale conflict it can be small scale. (See definition 2a below) Even a one-on-one street fight could be considered war under this definition. Definition of war (Entry 1 of 4) 1a(1): a state of usually open and declared armed hostile conflict between states or nations (2): a period of such armed conflict (3): STATE OF WAR b: the art or science of warfare c(1)obsolete : weapons and equipment for war (2)archaic : soldiers armed and equipped for war 2a: a state of hostility, conflict, or antagonism b: a struggle or competition between opposing forces or for a particular end
Other sources refer the origins of savate to Indonesia, due to the contact that french marines had in those colonies, they brought to Marseille some pencat silat techniques, and later on these ways of combat spread all over France. But surely you have a more precise reference to the history of savate. It's pretty cool to point out the influence that savage had in modern karate, Jesse Enkamp (the karate nerd) explains very well this influence. Thanks for the content, you have a new subscriber.
Thanks for the sub! Do you have any links to the other sources, as for years I have heard the theory of south-east asian influence without seeing anything really convincing? (I pose the same question to Jesse about karate and Savate).
@@LondonSavate actually there is no document that can prove convincingly any historical root from Asia for the creation of Savate as a combat system. In contrast with Okinawan karate, that is related to Chinese nobility, or Chinese martial arts that were brought by Bodhi Dharma from India, the history of savate has a less clear origin. It is, probably, because french marines had learned by casually watching asian fighters and then imitating them. Most of them probably were illiterate, so no document had been written. Just my two cents, sir.
Hi Edward, yes, Savate boots are specialised and allow you to hit with the toe effectively. If you want to see what they are like, check out 'Savate Live' and Rivat, both of which I use londonsavate.co.uk/savate-boots/
As a Jeet Kune Do practitioner (who regrettably is on the other side of London as id love to train with you at some point). Savate is part of one of the martial arts I study's (I do JKD and BJJ) make up. So for it to be part of its parentage its a martial art.
Yes, Bruce Lee made studies of Savate kicks when he wrote about his art. One of the many reason Savate is fascinating to practise in context with other martial arts (so called or otherwise).
@@LondonSavate Not forgetting Edward William Barton-Wright the founder of Bartitsu, he studied Savate and Canne De Combat when he was being educated in France, I actually started off getting back into martial arts through doing Bartitsu when I was at university(I did karate and judo when I was younger). The reason why I got into Jeet Kune do is because it's similar enough to Bartitsu with its kicks/punches etc (all from savate) its just as a club they trained more regularly and were closer.
You think there's anywhere that we can look for a primary source of soldiers that were participating in the sino French war that may have transmitted Savate to south east asia during their campaigns?
That's a good question and one I have posed myself. So far, few answers, but only a few correlations. I would also be interested to know how much historians value credible secondary sources for that sort of period. Do you have any leads yourself?
@@LondonSavate I don't. A few pdf s here and there on Savate in France and borrowing german Grid patterns to train people in mass as a way of building confidence in soldiers being indoctrinated into service. The grid pattern training method coming from German gymnastics which we then see in the "traditional" east asian training methods. There is an interesting secondary source I was reading that there was a difference between the type of Savate practiced by the gentile that called for light contact and gloves while there was another savate among the lower enlisted and working class that was bare knuckle and hard spar. Which to me is very interesting for the Sino French War transmission theory when you look at the difference between Lethwei in Myanmar and Muay Thai rules and training approaches. This is a new project for me so my notes are all over the place. I'm basically trying to build up an idea of what sources may be reliable and what's currently available in English, but I fear picking up my high school french may be needed to see this research to a fruitful source.
Great questions : personally I feel it may be naive to assume or suggest that Europe did not have a empty hand fighting system. Or furthermore that individual countries etc were without fighting systems that were formalised in some way. All other regions of the world claim a traditional fighting system from the americas to Africa and ofcourse asia. Maybe there is a cultural or political or even technological reason why these "martial arts" have gone by the wayside. I couldn't image why medieval soldiers would train rigorously to perfect the use of various weapons and not also focus on toe to toe empty hand combat .. is there any history on traditional European fighting systems other than savate ?? Thanks 🙏
you don't have to explain... you're allowed to have your own French martial art... :) You're not supposed to say "oriental," that's been politically incorrect since like the 1990s. "Asian"... anyway. There are European martial arts. Historically European Martial Arts, HEMA. Sambo is a non-Asian martial art, even though it's mixed with boxing, greco-roman, judo, and traditional wrestling styles of the soviet peoples. Lots of nations have traditional martial arts. Persians, Arabs, probably every culture has a traditional martial art, even if it's been lost over time. Boxing itself is a martial art. BJJ is a martial art, based in Japanese martial arts but changed over time. There were whole treatises written about swordsmanship in the Arab world and in Europe hundreds of years ago--they obviously had martial arts related to swordsmanship. It is likely and possible that many of the European martial arts were not so systematized as the Asian ones, but the modern form of most Asian martial arts is very different from the forms they had even 100 years ago. A martial art doesn't have to be from Asia to be a martial art, that is not even something to argue about. You don't have to prove it, it is just true. If someone doesn't accept that then you can't argue with them. It's like arguing about whether the earth is flat or if people have martians inside their brains steering them--if you get into that argument it just reflects badly on you even though you're right. If you're asking if Savate is a martial art then it means you're implying whether non-fighting aspects are primary. Like you could say Tai Chi is in a grey area. Eventually bottom line it is a martial art but you could make a strong argument that it is not because real fighting is not so slow...
Art of an artisan not artist; other words art in martial art describes a methodology for the martial. Think the art of cabinet making, beer making, etc.
Interesting video. My own opinion is that martial arts are designed and practised with the intention of them being used for actual combat and not as a sport. There are sporting versions of Karate and Taekwondo etc. and in my opinion they are watered down versions of martial arts which are now sports. What's everyone opinion of Boxing? Sport or a Martial art? Learning to punch with wrapped and padded fists is impractical for self defence for the simple reason that one could easily break one's hand punching a head or face when the fists are not wrapped, and let's face it, who walks around with wraps and boxing gloves on on the off chance they'll get into a fight? Similarly, learning/practising to kick above the groin is also unhelpful for actual fighting. When in an actual fight, in my experience, people resort to what they're best at and what they've done (practised) the most. I've therefore seen people trained in combat sports use high (above the waist) kicks in fights and I've seen every one of them end up on the floor and get a pasting. I've also seen people trained in Japanese Ju Jitsu and Karate who've finished fights within seconds. Each using techniques which would be completely illegal in any competition. TL;DR Savate Boxe is a sport, Savate Défense is a martial art. An interesting thought, German has two words for "martial arts": "Kampfsport" and "Kampfkunst" literally "fight sport" and "fight art" I don't know whether they consider gloved ring sports "Kampfsport" and systems of self defence "Kampfkunst". I do know that in Germany Savate and associated disciplines are all considered "Kampfsportarten" - "combat sport types"
The west has taught fighting skills through sport traditionally. In the Anglophone countries the militaries taught marching, target shooting, fencing (bayonet, pugil sticks, saber, foil, and fisticuffs "boxing & milling"), and wrestling as drills then sports to maintain these skills. The sport of Track and Field are bronze age fighting methods. Its not until you get into the 19th century that games and other leisure activities that have no crossover with military applications were considered as part of the category of sports or athletics or exercises. Boxing is still mandatory in British and USA military service academies and part of basic training in the USA. Gloves and wraps are used to minimize cuts, bruises and sprains as training aids they don't define Boxing nor are they necessary for Boxing. Bare knuckle Boxing still exists and has existed long before wraps and gloves were invented or mandated. In fact of all combat sports its has the most fatalities and of homocides and assaults without weapons punching is the most common technique, which is why its mandatory skill to learn at least within the Anglophone military academies.
I see nothing wrong with calling savate boxe francaise a combat sport. If you're suddenly throwing baffe, coude, headbutts and training situational awareness and knife work, then it starts to depart from that while using it as a tool. I play it (badly, after many injuries and no instructor for a very long time) and teach it to some interested students who do combat sambo almost as a meditation on body mechanics and fight principles (I earned gant jaune way back in the day but would CLEARLY be on the technical track were I good enough to get back up to snuff). I think the distinction between technical and sporting track alone suggests a broad inclusive definition should be considered.
Am I the only who find it very strange that there seems to be no Savate nor Karate document which indicates the French exported their kicks to Japanese Karate?
Hi Jake, you have the right art. It is possible Chausson (slipper fighting, a precursor of BF Savate) was influenced in the way you described, especially with its origins around the maritime centre of Marseilles, but hard evidence for this is sketchy.
I know this is debated, but the high kicks derived from chausson are virtually *identical* to the kicks I learned from Shaolin kung fu and related styles, right down to the stepping and the hand positions. The hand strikes thrown from the hip look remarkably similar to the those of kung styles that utilize those kicks. Given that it emerged in a port city in a country with a 1000 year history of trade with China, it's really hard to ignore a likely Chinese influence. That being said, there were styles of no-rules pugilism and street fighting extant in France, Italy and Britain, just like any culture really. So even if it had some Chinese influence, Savate would still be a natively European martial art in the same way that Muay Thai is a Thai art despite its incorporation of western boxing.
I've been researching this recently, and I'm more and more convinced that the kicking techniques of savate are not only a native invention, they were "stolen" by many Asian martials arts, particularly karate and by extension TKD. Despite my comment above, I increasingly suspect that many of the kicks I learned were influenced more by other martial arts and Bruce Lee (who emulated savate with JKD), and the traditional kicking methods in northern kung fu styles are quite distinct from savate. The possibility that savate influenced some kung fu styles rather than the other way around can't be ruled out either.
Hello! Savate could be influenced by today's Thailand. You can see my 2 videos about Karate and Savate influence. Savate is not really French Boxing within my knowledge...it's only a "marketing" term for the transformation of Savate by Charlemont and the people of it's time to the sporting of Savate French Boxing. I agree that FBoxing is mostly a XIX century sport founded on the pursuit of a better human following the sports movement in France. Great video with alot of info. Cheers, Renato
Thanks for your kind words. Yes, because of the French colonial presence in East Asia, many people infer a Thai or Asian influence in Savate development. Yet I have not seen any primary or secondary sources - beyond the coincidence - that says it is anything more than possible. You are smart to say 'could be'. If you have some, please send it my way :) In any case, my own view is that it is more useful to be concerned with understanding with what we have now. Enjoy your training!
@@LondonSavateThanks again for other great points. There are links in history in French language (btw if you need any translation I can help) of demos of Siam Kingdom martial arts to french officials and military. In my video here (after 6') I talk about that ;) th-cam.com/video/qJVzGXKnQvo/w-d-xo.html
If you do kata, as @martinomalley says below, you make it safe by removing a partner from the equation. Full-contact knockdown karate looks pretty unsafe when they are fighting, but this necessarily removes techniques designed to kill from the equation. Either way, made safe in some aspect.
In one or other of the two ways described in the video, yes. You have the Dangerous Movements Done Slowly / Without Contact - eg Kata / Kata Application, and you have the Movements Made Safe (including targets restricted) Done At Speed / With Contact - eg Competitive Matches (rules vary).
Brilliant video. I'd like to call savate a martial art but only becuase I feel like it makes more sense to me personally to incorporate that philosophy into practise of sport as well. May I also say that krav maga was not actually developed for the Israeli military originally, it was actually first devised in Hungary during world war two by Imi Lichtenfeld, and it was originally a combination of wrestling and dirty boxing, along with a changed mind set from being more sport orientated to more martial based after learning the hard way that a fascist gang picking on a local Jewish family may need more aggression based combative motivation. When isreal became a country, Imi was the one who gained a high reputation after the war was over for showing the local jewish hungarians how to defend themselves, and it was then he ended up being the one asked to be a hand to hand combative instructor for the Israeli military. These days with krav maga there is a lot of controversy when it comes to it's label, becuase in isreal currently, krav maga when taught is something like a two week course (I think it might be less then that) and it is more focused on basic close quarters combat with teaching the mind to be more aggressive towards danger, as it being the opposite when taught in the west where it is more self defense based (I.e getting away from the danger) so now there are a lot of opinions darting around weather or not it should be classed as a martial art becuase of these things, but that's only becuase the literal translating for krav maga is "contact combat", and it is pretty much the same as how any other combative form compared to other specual forces /militry. Personally I don't really think it matters XD. What would your opinion on that matter be?
Thanks for filling in some krav maga history, which I didn't know about. I think you've added another interesting dimension to the discussion - that of aggression vs self-preservation. Does a martial art necessarily have aggressive intent? Great question. My view is that it reveals further how a single term 'martial art' is insufficient to describe every variant of fighting. The purpose of posing the question is not to include or disqualify certain arts, but to help us investigate and understand what we do. So I agree with your summary - I don't think it matters - so long as it helps us to think better.
Good question. There are 4 named kicks: Fouetté, Chassé, Revers, Coup de Pied Bas. The Chassé and Revers can be done frontal or latéral, so you might add 2 variants there. Plus there are 3 heights (low, middle, high) which changes a little the technique but not much the nature of the kick. Thanks!
@@jackjax7921 Hey Jack, I also train Savate though not nearly at the level of James, but maybe I can answer your question. Love Tekken (Bad at it though) and while its a fun game full of diverse fighters its very rare that the fighters in it look much like the style they are said to represent. Lee/Violet has a few techniques that look a little like Savate techniques but if I look at him as a whole I don't really see a Savate fighter. One of the big things he is missing is the lateral movement (Side stepping) that you frequently see in Savate alongside the chambering of most of the kicks. Here Lee throws a 1-2 followed by a roundhouse/fouette kick. This technqiue is frequently thrown in Savate but with a bit more of a chamber on the kick. By chamber I mean the knee comes up then the leg goes out rather that the leg being swung upwards. th-cam.com/video/5KYzTvYBJqo/w-d-xo.html On this counter hit launcher after he Lee kicks the opponent into the air the side kick or chasse has a chamber somewhat similar to how many savate practioners throw the technique. th-cam.com/video/5KYzTvYBJqo/w-d-xo.html This next combo 1-2 High kick. IS thrown with no chamber and a full rotation on the kick. This is far similar to a Thai or Kyokushin style round house where they will power through their stike and often swing the strike upwards. This is powerful but a Savate practioner is more likely to bring their leg up kick to the head and then return to their original stance in sacrificing some power for control and balance. th-cam.com/video/5KYzTvYBJqo/w-d-xo.html Lee quite uses backfists and spinning backfists which are not allowed in Savate competitions. This next set of kicks however do look quite similar to a Savate style fouette. You can see the chambering of the kick and Lee throwing multiple kicks on one leg, which you see quite often in Savates lighter contact form of competition called assaut. th-cam.com/video/5KYzTvYBJqo/w-d-xo.html2 Sadly ive also never seen a Savatuer kick someone with a backflip. In fact im pretty sure it would be against the rules if they could, as awesome as it would look. My conclusion is that Lee/Violet doesn't look like a Savate fighter, however some of his techniques are similar to those in Savate but albeit stylised version to work better in game.
I would say it’s a marshal art anything can be if the mind is on the application of it. Now to say the word competition is a like philosophy compared to Krav Maga or wu shu is in my opinion wrong due to the fact you can not find your self a practitioner of art if you need some one else to practice with or the end result is sparing with some one cause Krav Magas mind set is to take another’s life how can you say old shoe is this ? Yes you get attributes or byproducts of good practice like sportsman ship and discipline but I wouldn’t say there the same.
Check it carefully. French savate appeared before or after French conquered to Laotian. Lethwei (Burma/Myanmar), Muay Thai (Thailand), Khun khamar (Cambodia) came from same root (southern India) and arrived south east Asia with Mahayana Buddhism/Ari Buddhism in around 10 century AD (India, Burma, Lao, Cambodia were colonialized and colonial governments forbid their martial art, except Thai which never been colonialized and therefore Muay Thai became well-known martial art. Now Burma, Cambodia got chance to mention their martial art and appeared again. Unfortunately this art is totally disappeared in its birth place, India. Remember, Chinese Shao Lin martial art was established by Indian Buddhist monk, Bodhi Dharma.) Some said that French took it from south east Asian and invented as theirs. Please check it carefully. Perhaps they are right. French savate has no knee strike and elbow strike. Muay Thai & Khun Khamar use 8 limps (2 fists, 2 elbows, 2 knees, 2 legs) while Lethwei uses 9 limps (including head butt). Please check these facts. 1) Savate: The modern formalized form is mainly an amalgam of French street fighting techniques from the beginning of the 19th century. 2) Muay Thai: is believed to have been developed by the Siamese army as a form of self-defence and it can be traced at least to the 16th century as a peace-time martial art practised by the soldiers of King Naresuan. An exhibition of Muay Thai was observed and reported by Simon de la Loubère, a French diplomat who was sent by King Louis XIV to the Kingdom of Siam in 1687, in his famous work and the Ayutthaya Kingdom Burmese-Siamese War (1765-1767). 3) Lethwei: The traditional martial arts of Myanmar are regrouped under a term called "thaing", which includes bando, banshay, naban, shan gyi and Lethwei. According to researchers, thaing can be traced in its earliest form to the 12th century of the Pagan Kingdom dynasty. Lethwei went through many years of suppression during the British colonial rule of Burma. The sport was revived under General Ne Win's nationalistic government. Compared to Muay Thai, in Lethwei, punches are generally favoured over kicks because of their ability to draw blood easier. 4) Kun Khamar (a) pradal serey: The story of pradal serey starts with the Khmer Empire. The Khmer Empire was founded in 802 A.D. at a time when many modern Southeast Asian countries didn't exist yet. Martial arts were used by the military of the Khmer Empire. Pradal Serey has its root from the hand-to-hand combat use by the military of the Khmer Empire. In the Angkor era, both armed and unarmed martial arts were practiced by the Khmers. Evidence shows that a style resembling pradal serey existed in the 9th century, which may be one of the reasons why the Khmer Empire was such a military powerhouse in Southeast Asia. The Khmer Empire used an early form of pradal serey along with various weapons and war elephants to wage war against their main enemy, the principalities of Champa. The combat between Vāli and Sugrīva is depicted on the western gopura of the Banteay Srei (967 A.D.). Thrust kicks and clinching depicted in the bas-relief are still used in pradal serey today. At this time, the Khmer Empire dominated and controlled most of what is now Cambodia, Laos, Thailand and parts of Vietnam. As a result, Cambodia has influenced much of Thai and Lao culture. This leads the Khmer to assert all Southeast Asian forms of boxing started with the early Mon-Khmer people (Mon-Khmer people living coastal area of southern Burma, southern Thai). CONCLUSION: Savate (beginning of the 19th century), Muay Thai (16th century), Lethwei (12th century), Kun Khamar (a) pradal serey (802 A.D.).
I would also like to boldly state that Greco-Roman wrestling, Western European as well as American boxing and European fencing as well as American catch wrestling and of course French savate are all Western martial arts!
you just forgot about HEMA. bro
@@dragoncrusader3356 please please please as a fellow adult in 2021 if you're going to discuss hema don't call someone bro! I have an Irish name recognize that okay I'm not a bro!
@@williambreen4290 Wait a minute !! are you get mad of me? im proud of EU martial art . and so you are. right? i'm just remind you forgot the name you listed, not mocking your comment. Im American. if "bro" not fit for your culture . so i will take it back . and maybe im taking critical guilty cuz cant realize where is hard Irish and where is not . do i miss new TH-cam standard. im 30 does it count still young in 2021? if you are older . im sory cuz i thought i have some gracefull react comment like before when im discuss medieval fighting stratergy but not here . if you have a name . yes i saw it. but im stupid to be used men to men the friendly style to wrong place
@@dragoncrusader3356 okay listen I apologize perhaps maybe I was being a jerk and I realize that please excuse me for being rude I sincerely apologize! That was a very childish response from me and I am ashamed of my behavior! Sometimes I become irritated with adult men in any society they keep using the word bro LOL please excuse me my friend I wish you the best of luck in your training! Strength and honor! And honest to God I think historical European martial arts are a very fascinating subject that unfortunately gets overlooked a lot by Asian martial arts! I think all forms of wrestling as well as French savate and Western pugilism and Western Weaponry tactics are absolutely effective and awesome! Once again I would like to be apologetic for my rude and childish response!
@@williambreen4290 Glad to heard it. friend . dont worry. im welcome brothers and sisters from EU knows more about EU classic . btw im a half Caucasian and Asian.
About the Asian martial art . i think it became commercialization from long time ago and everybody have alot of chance to contact to it , that why we are forgot EU martial and being overlooked. and Savate have lost 100 years cuz of EU civil war to ressrected (about XVII - XIX) . it named Savate d'Rue
I'm French and it's so cool to heard an English man who practice savate with good legs.
From a former fighter silver glove 3th degre 😉
Finally I found someone talking about the French boxing gloves... Would you please mention them in detail about the colors and their arrangement so that everyone who passes by here can benefit from it. 🙏🌹.
Of course, I am the first to be happy
@@matarahmadal_atif9359
1) Blue
2) green
3) red
4) white
5) yellow
Examen before the professor
After there is two sorts of silver glove.
I. ) Technical :
Silver glove 1 degre
Silver glove 2 degre
Silver glove 3 degre
This one can be obtened before ligue or your fédération.
II. Fight :
Bronze glove
Sliver glove 1 degre
Silver glove 2 degre
Silver glove 3 degre
Silver glove 4 degre
Silver glove 5 degre
This one can only be win thanks points won in fight. 3 Pts victory, 1 pts lost, 2 pts draw. Bronze need 10pts. Silver 1 degre need 10 pts, 2 degree 15 pts, 3 degree 20 pts, after don't remember. This one is the most difficult. Not comparison with the other (technical). Fight is so tough my friend!
@@francois2599 Dear sir... Thank you so much for sharing your Knowledge 🌹🙏🎰.
@@matarahmadal_atif9359 thanks, know that there is also gold glove but this one hasn't comparison with skill in savate. It's just honorific tittle giving by federation. It's a reward.
@@francois2599 Noted ☝🏽😅
Savate is really one of the most effective martial arts in the world. That said, there are legitimate Western martial arts. Savate is a great sport and that can't be denied. But it is real.
Great video, informative and concise but also thought provoking...
Savate is all encompassing and has appeal to so many sections of society.
The fact that even within the modern "combat sport" evolution of the original, more street self defense based, style, there are 3 distinct (and quite different) divisions
Assaut - controlled contact, point fighting,
Combat - full contact and governed by the distancing, technique and duration rules of Savate
Savate Pro - where Savate fighters get the opportunity to compete against other styles of kickboxing in a full contact bout but with adapted rules to allow competitors from other kick / punch styles to enter the affray...
Then, as you mention, there are the associated disciplines of Canne de combat, (Cane fencing), Grand baton (staff / bo fighting), Savate Defense,(street self defense including chokes, throws, locks and disarming techniques to deal with weapons) Lutte Parisian (rarely seen wrestling & throw techniques) and Savate Forme (a non contact, cardio fitness style often performed to music, similar to "Tai Bo", circuit training or general aerobics classes.
It is even possible to combine some of the aspects of savate in a sporting but competitive way
Panache - Combination of Canne de combat with some kick techniques
The idea of "Panache is what attracted me to the art...a friend had told me there was a "sport" that allowed punching, kicking and hitting with a stick !!
Almost everyone can enjoy Savate, it is open to all ages and both genders.
It can be described as a martial art, a combat sport or a fun way to stay fit, meet people and bash them up...lol
Agreed Ross. I didn't really go into the Assaut/Combat distinction in this video, but might take that up in future.
@@LondonSavate 👍🏻🔥🤝🏻
Thank you for sharing your research. Your enthusiasm is inspiring and I have learned so much more about Savate in such a short video. I think definitions and labels may depend on your personal perspective and training focus. Yes, I find your thoughts interesting and inclusive; I like the idea of working together and promoting peace: that in a view of sport "competition", rather than making one win and one lose, it is possible to have harmony resulting in both being winners.
Excellent take on it. Thanks for your kind words Simon!
A concise, superbly presented overview, Thank You James. In my opinion it is def a martial art, a Western striking form that can more than hold its own against the better know oriental striking arts. Its fluid round based scoring and utilization of footware sets it well apart from its opposition. The techniques present are not flashy or numerous, but undoubtedly effective. To watch a well practised exponent is in my opinion art in motion.
Well said Mat!
Great video as always.
I'd define Savate Boxe Francaise (both combat and assaut) and la Canne de combat as a combat sports , however I think the defense system as Savate de rue o savate defense may be more 'martial' as you defined in this video. If we consider the term 'martial' as origined for combat/war and 'art' as the continuous development and improvement of a technique of something then Savate, included all the branches, as a Western martial art along with Wrestling, Boxing and Pankration.
It's an interesting question or debate that I have been having since the eighties, and I would say yes it is a full martial art but understand some prefer to call it a sport. My Savate has been called nasty Savate by some practitioners, but that's because my interest is self-defence and has a slightly different flavour because that is the flavour and interest my coach and I had. I certainly can appreciate the noble sportspeople and love to watch the back and forth of a great match. I guess our Savate can be whatever we want it to be on an individual level.
Like the channel and have subscribed.
Regards Richard
I think of it like a fight-sport, and liked you advocating for the sport!! Great clip, and questions! Thank you!
Thanks Dale!
I used to pratice kung fu, tae kwon do and savate. My opinion: the difference between combat sport and martial art isn't in the style but in the way you practice
That sounds reasonable. Where would the difference in practice lie?
@@LondonSavate my tae kwon do teacher was very intersted in competion, so we work cardio and few techniques but very effective in competition. In the other side, my savate teacher (who teached also canne) gave us many techniques and strategies, searching for the perfect mouvement. I think his approach was more martial. By the way the sparring rules of savate made my kung fu way better!
@@Tibosan2 So you would consider sport / fitness less 'martial' and strategy and technique more so? That could work.
I'd be interested to hear more about how the sparring rules help your kung fu, either here or elsewhere :) Nice.
@@LondonSavate I don't think there's a line between sport and martial art. The difference is in the goal you want to reach. Sport is about competition (even agains't yourself), martial art is about beating an ennemy by many way as possible.
If I do push-ups to be able to punch or to be fit, it's still push-ups. But this goal can modify the way you teach, learn and train.
When I used to practice at the savate gym, I do for martial art but my partner was possibly here for sport. We practice same exercices but not for the same purpose.
I don't want to be rude or disrespectful with my kung fu teachers but they made us practice in a very traditionnal way, sparring was only for the higher level. When I push a savate gym's door, after an hour of lesson, I had my gloves up for a sparring session: even with years of kung fu, I had my ass kicked by a kid who had under a year of practice. I simply didn't have the basics of fighting (mouvement, timing, being beaten! ...).
The savate sparring skills (strategie, sequences, light foot stance, ...) suit more for skill transposition with kung fu than muay thai or kick boxing for exemple.
Isn't there a chinese organisation named "Kung Fu World Cup" which is in fact a Savate pro championship?
Funniest of this story: I'm french and I spent more than 20 years seeking martial art in Orient while It was probaly already in my own culture ...
Sorry for that very long and verbose answer! And thank you for your videos and work!
When kickboxing organisations banned deadly Savate kicks, that speaks volumes why Savate can be effective.
Thank you James for this wonderful explanation. Since I had no opinion on this matter I know so much more now :)
Thanks for this :)
"Art" in martial art is used in the original Latin meaning which is "skill" or "craft". It could be considered synonymous with "fighting skill", which could include any high level fighting skill. Since no one calls shooting or air combat a martial art, we can take it to mean any melee fighting skills: wrestling, striking, submissions or melee weaponry.
I think this is a good point. As with the other term 'martial' we have to decide whether the derivation/root or the current usage is more relevant, but this is certainly part of the consideration.
@@LondonSavate Mars was the god of everything military, but he was also the god of warriors and weapons. Boxing, wrestling and fighting with hand weapons are the oldest forms of human combat, so I would say that the skills of boxing/savate comprise a martial art and the competitions and associated rules done in front of spectators are the sport. I think a martial art ceases to be a martial art and becomes only a sport when the techniques become abstract or entirely useless for fighting or outside a sport context. Thus freestyle wrestling would be a martial art while arm wrestling is not. Modern fencing, which has almost nothing to do with real swordfighting, is probably only a sport while classical fencing and HEMA are true martial arts.
Art means to be creative and/or Express yourself
Pankration originated between 2000 BC and 7th century BC, included kicks, knees, punches, elbows, wrestling and grappling, and originated from Ancient Greece. Also had boxing, kickboxing (pyx lax), and wrestling.
They fought differently because usually the "area" they fought was wet sand, so footwork was slower.
Pankration stopped being widely practiced in 393 AD, due to Theodosius stoppage of the Ancient Olympic Games, and Philosophical schools in the Eastern Romam Empire (Byzantium).
The stance of pankratium was very similar to Muay Thai but with more extended hands and knees more bend (to balance between striking and grappling)
These methods included among others the periodization of training; a wealth of regimens for the development of strength, speed-strength, speed, stamina, and endurance; specialized training for the different stages of competition (i.e., for anō pankration and katō pankration), and methods for learning and engraining techniques. Among the multitude of the latter were also training tools that appear to be very similar to Asian martial arts forms or kata, and were known as cheironomia (χειρονομία) and anapale (ἀναπάλη). Punching bags (kōrykos κώρυκος "leather sack") of different sizes and dummies were used for striking practice as well as for the hardening of the body and limbs. Nutrition, massage, and other recovery techniques were used very actively by pankratiasts.
Great video, James. Very informative and thought provoking
Thanks Micah!
Wow, lovely presentation - even your wise old dad learnt something...
Glad you enjoyed it
European HEMA is a set of martial arts, Lusitanian fencing or stick game Portuguese is martial art, zipota from Spain is martial art! Capoeira Brasil is martial art.
A very interesting video James, I initially had the idea that martial arts were any codified system of fighting, including styles some might not consider martial arts, such as boxing and wrestling. The connection to budo from the term "martial art" was very interesting as well. I am always skeptical about the idea that a martial art has to have an outlined philosophy and connection to eastern cultures and ideas, with even old karate masters dismissing this idea, such as mikio yahara, saying "my philosophy is to knock my opponent out with a single blow", which interestingly reads more like a Conor McGregor quote than an old karate master's. I did also like the tie in with the sporting attitude and values of sportsmanship and competition as a means of self-mastery. Great video
Thanks for the thoughtful response. If we ever get to the stage of needing to quoting MacGregor as philosopher we might need to take stock ;) But I agree with the idea that directness is generally a good sign and it can usually be found in the more useful philosophies - for example, Zen buddhism or Stoicism (I recently wrote a piece on Stoic Boxing if you are interested modernstoicism.com/on-anger-and-impulse-control-in-boxing/)
Savat is an effective martial art that was confirmed in a lot of real situations.
A very interesting video, thank you for producing it. There’s a lot to consider but one jumping out right now is on the methods of practice.
You mentioned dangerous techniques done slowly or techniques made safe done at full speed. As Kata is such a large part of some MA and both methods you mentioned are partner based, would you consider Kata/Shadow Fighting as a third stand alone category or simply a training tool, a part of the process?
Hi, I'd say kata fits right in to that idea. You can do full-speed practice of dangerous technique, just without a partner. Another way to train dangerous techniques. Thanks for watching!
@@JamesSouthwood thank you. I really enjoyed the video. Looking forward to more!
In swedish the term for combat sport is more common than the term for martial arts, so it's used to describe everything basically. In english it's martial arts that's the common term so that's what everyone uses. That's how I see it anyways.
Interesting. The accidents of language are often more important for the explanation than the things themselves.
Are you part of Sweden Savate (have we met?)
First of all as an avid historian or an individual who likes history in general rather I would like to start by saying that it's not fair for a western system of established combat and self-defense as well as an established spectator sport not to be considered a martial art! I would like people to understand that the term martial art was actually a western 17th century English reference for people participating in the Mastery of fencing! The term martial art is not what all you Asian Kung Fu nerds think! Boxe Francaise savate was a collection of techniques perfected by Frenchman who had the testicular fortitude to experience life and travel abroad all over Asia especially and particularly Indochina and gained technical expertise from observation through other cultures! They brought their experience back to France and perfected something that is highly effective and they don't have to stand on a wooden post for 5 hours and practice breathing techniques like they're some fucking tiger! These Frenchmen know who they are and they will kick you upside your head before you can blink or breathe! You better believe savate is a martial art!
Thanks for watching William. Great to meet an avid Savate enthusiast. Yes, I agree and make the point that 'martial art' is clearly a western term, so you can call Savate a martial art with full justification. (I read that it was used by as early as 1500s - do you have a source for that?) Thankfully, I have trained with - and sometimes beaten - those Frenchmen you talk about. Great fight art! Although I think they will claim it originated in France - I haven't seen any historical evidence of it being imported, have you seen any source documents on that?
@@LondonSavate Thank you very much James for the accurate and engaging presentation. Savate is definitely a martial art and a form of communication.
About fencing and duelling legal aspects, there are plenty of 16th century Italian manuals talking about 'art of war' (arte della guerra) or similar definitions (Camillo Agrippa's one perhaps is the most famous for the beautiful images, although he defined it a 'science of arms' not an 'art'. archive.org/details/trattatodiscient00agri/page/n16/mode/1up).
Also, here you can find a treatise in English, by an Italian master, printed in 1595 referring to 'Martial affairs' or 'art Military'. www.academia.edu/34114011/Vincentio_Saviolo_His_Practise_in_two_books_modernized_typeface_annotated_vocabulary_ver_1_1_pdf
Excellent sources, thanks very much for adding these!
@@LondonSavate well I think it's also important to note that early contests between French foot Fighters and English bare-knuckle boxers we're very interesting and had mixed outcomes with the Englishmen winning and sometimes the Frenchman winning. Later on I believe the French realized the importance of English pugilism therefore adding it to their already-established kicking techniques giving birth to boxe francais! I am absolutely fascinated with Western martial arts as well as Eastern but I think enough Eastern dogmatic crap has been shoved up everyone's ass and it's time to explore something new and different that has always been right under our nose especially based on the fact that if you have European blood you owe it to yourself to research something fascinating that your predecessors developed.
@@williambreen4290 I think more people should watch a video by Jesse Enkamp, about karate being influenced by savate :) It was strange and refreshing to learn how japanese fighters incorporated savate techniqoues in karate. I agree that too many believe in martial arts being rooted in asia, which is complete bullshit (no disrespect to any of these arts of course).
What a great video
. Thank you for taking the time to make these video..i have 36 yrs training in martial arts and ive always wanted to study savate but there are no folks in NYC who are Savatuers..
Thanks for your kind comments! I have quite a few US Savateurs training distance with me if you'd like a chance to do some video training meanwhile.
the term martial arts is an English term, first arrived in the late 1500s if I remember correctly. It is derived from Latin and means the arts of Mars; Mars being the Roman God of war whose Greek equivalent is Aries.
In the term martial arts don't think of art as fine art; like portraits in oils on a canvas.
Instead think of art as in artisan; like a methodology of hand made furniture making.
In other words art in martial art describes a methodology for the martial.
Also war does not necessarily have to be a large scale conflict it can be small scale look at definition 2a. Even a one-on-one street fight could be considered war under this definition.
Definition of war (Entry 1 of 4)
1a(1): a state of usually open and declared armed hostile conflict between states or nations
(2): a period of such armed conflict
(3): STATE OF WAR
b: the art or science of warfare
c(1)obsolete : weapons and equipment for war
(2)archaic : soldiers armed and equipped for war
2a: a state of hostility, conflict, or antagonism
b: a struggle or competition between opposing forces or for a particular end
From James philosophy of controlled sparring and when I got into a situation with 6 youths, equipt with my London savate boxing lessons I was able to control the power of my kicks to simply avoid further conflict😝
War does not necessarily have to be a large scale conflict it can be small scale. (See definition 2a below) Even a one-on-one street fight could be considered war under this definition.
Definition of war (Entry 1 of 4)
1a(1): a state of usually open and declared armed hostile conflict between states or nations
(2): a period of such armed conflict
(3): STATE OF WAR
b: the art or science of warfare
c(1)obsolete : weapons and equipment for war
(2)archaic : soldiers armed and equipped for war
2a: a state of hostility, conflict, or antagonism
b: a struggle or competition between opposing forces or for a particular end
very interesting!
Thanks Andy!
Other sources refer the origins of savate to Indonesia, due to the contact that french marines had in those colonies, they brought to Marseille some pencat silat techniques, and later on these ways of combat spread all over France. But surely you have a more precise reference to the history of savate. It's pretty cool to point out the influence that savage had in modern karate, Jesse Enkamp (the karate nerd) explains very well this influence. Thanks for the content, you have a new subscriber.
Thanks for the sub! Do you have any links to the other sources, as for years I have heard the theory of south-east asian influence without seeing anything really convincing? (I pose the same question to Jesse about karate and Savate).
@@LondonSavate actually there is no document that can prove convincingly any historical root from Asia for the creation of Savate as a combat system. In contrast with Okinawan karate, that is related to Chinese nobility, or Chinese martial arts that were brought by Bodhi Dharma from India, the history of savate has a less clear origin. It is, probably, because french marines had learned by casually watching asian fighters and then imitating them. Most of them probably were illiterate, so no document had been written. Just my two cents, sir.
It originates from French navy that's why they wear cork soles boots
I've seen examples of savate kicks landing with the point of the shoe. Is this real and is it because savate boxers wear a specialized style of shoe?
Hi Edward, yes, Savate boots are specialised and allow you to hit with the toe effectively. If you want to see what they are like, check out 'Savate Live' and Rivat, both of which I use londonsavate.co.uk/savate-boots/
As a Jeet Kune Do practitioner (who regrettably is on the other side of London as id love to train with you at some point). Savate is part of one of the martial arts I study's (I do JKD and BJJ) make up. So for it to be part of its parentage its a martial art.
Yes, Bruce Lee made studies of Savate kicks when he wrote about his art. One of the many reason Savate is fascinating to practise in context with other martial arts (so called or otherwise).
@@LondonSavate Not forgetting Edward William Barton-Wright the founder of Bartitsu, he studied Savate and Canne De Combat when he was being educated in France, I actually started off getting back into martial arts through doing Bartitsu when I was at university(I did karate and judo when I was younger). The reason why I got into Jeet Kune do is because it's similar enough to Bartitsu with its kicks/punches etc (all from savate) its just as a club they trained more regularly and were closer.
You think there's anywhere that we can look for a primary source of soldiers that were participating in the sino French war that may have transmitted Savate to south east asia during their campaigns?
That's a good question and one I have posed myself. So far, few answers, but only a few correlations. I would also be interested to know how much historians value credible secondary sources for that sort of period. Do you have any leads yourself?
@@LondonSavate I don't. A few pdf s here and there on Savate in France and borrowing german Grid patterns to train people in mass as a way of building confidence in soldiers being indoctrinated into service. The grid pattern training method coming from German gymnastics which we then see in the "traditional" east asian training methods. There is an interesting secondary source I was reading that there was a difference between the type of Savate practiced by the gentile that called for light contact and gloves while there was another savate among the lower enlisted and working class that was bare knuckle and hard spar. Which to me is very interesting for the Sino French War transmission theory when you look at the difference between Lethwei in Myanmar and Muay Thai rules and training approaches.
This is a new project for me so my notes are all over the place. I'm basically trying to build up an idea of what sources may be reliable and what's currently available in English, but I fear picking up my high school french may be needed to see this research to a fruitful source.
Great questions : personally I feel it may be naive to assume or suggest that Europe did not have a empty hand fighting system. Or furthermore that individual countries etc were without fighting systems that were formalised in some way. All other regions of the world claim a traditional fighting system from the americas to Africa and ofcourse asia. Maybe there is a cultural or political or even technological reason why these "martial arts" have gone by the wayside. I couldn't image why medieval soldiers would train rigorously to perfect the use of various weapons and not also focus on toe to toe empty hand combat .. is there any history on traditional European fighting systems other than savate ?? Thanks 🙏
you don't have to explain... you're allowed to have your own French martial art... :) You're not supposed to say "oriental," that's been politically incorrect since like the 1990s. "Asian"... anyway. There are European martial arts. Historically European Martial Arts, HEMA. Sambo is a non-Asian martial art, even though it's mixed with boxing, greco-roman, judo, and traditional wrestling styles of the soviet peoples. Lots of nations have traditional martial arts. Persians, Arabs, probably every culture has a traditional martial art, even if it's been lost over time. Boxing itself is a martial art. BJJ is a martial art, based in Japanese martial arts but changed over time. There were whole treatises written about swordsmanship in the Arab world and in Europe hundreds of years ago--they obviously had martial arts related to swordsmanship. It is likely and possible that many of the European martial arts were not so systematized as the Asian ones, but the modern form of most Asian martial arts is very different from the forms they had even 100 years ago. A martial art doesn't have to be from Asia to be a martial art, that is not even something to argue about. You don't have to prove it, it is just true. If someone doesn't accept that then you can't argue with them. It's like arguing about whether the earth is flat or if people have martians inside their brains steering them--if you get into that argument it just reflects badly on you even though you're right. If you're asking if Savate is a martial art then it means you're implying whether non-fighting aspects are primary. Like you could say Tai Chi is in a grey area. Eventually bottom line it is a martial art but you could make a strong argument that it is not because real fighting is not so slow...
Orient does not refer to just asia but the starts with middle east
Art of an artisan not artist; other words art in martial art describes a methodology for the martial. Think the art of cabinet making, beer making, etc.
Interesting video. My own opinion is that martial arts are designed and practised with the intention of them being used for actual combat and not as a sport. There are sporting versions of Karate and Taekwondo etc. and in my opinion they are watered down versions of martial arts which are now sports. What's everyone opinion of Boxing? Sport or a Martial art? Learning to punch with wrapped and padded fists is impractical for self defence for the simple reason that one could easily break one's hand punching a head or face when the fists are not wrapped, and let's face it, who walks around with wraps and boxing gloves on on the off chance they'll get into a fight? Similarly, learning/practising to kick above the groin is also unhelpful for actual fighting. When in an actual fight, in my experience, people resort to what they're best at and what they've done (practised) the most. I've therefore seen people trained in combat sports use high (above the waist) kicks in fights and I've seen every one of them end up on the floor and get a pasting. I've also seen people trained in Japanese Ju Jitsu and Karate who've finished fights within seconds. Each using techniques which would be completely illegal in any competition.
TL;DR Savate Boxe is a sport, Savate Défense is a martial art.
An interesting thought, German has two words for "martial arts": "Kampfsport" and "Kampfkunst" literally "fight sport" and "fight art" I don't know whether they consider gloved ring sports "Kampfsport" and systems of self defence "Kampfkunst". I do know that in Germany Savate and associated disciplines are all considered "Kampfsportarten" - "combat sport types"
The west has taught fighting skills through sport traditionally. In the Anglophone countries the militaries taught marching, target shooting, fencing (bayonet, pugil sticks, saber, foil, and fisticuffs "boxing & milling"), and wrestling as drills then sports to maintain these skills. The sport of Track and Field are bronze age fighting methods. Its not until you get into the 19th century that games and other leisure activities that have no crossover with military applications were considered as part of the category of sports or athletics or exercises. Boxing is still mandatory in British and USA military service academies and part of basic training in the USA. Gloves and wraps are used to minimize cuts, bruises and sprains as training aids they don't define Boxing nor are they necessary for Boxing. Bare knuckle Boxing still exists and has existed long before wraps and gloves were invented or mandated. In fact of all combat sports its has the most fatalities and of homocides and assaults without weapons punching is the most common technique, which is why its mandatory skill to learn at least within the Anglophone military academies.
I see nothing wrong with calling savate boxe francaise a combat sport. If you're suddenly throwing baffe, coude, headbutts and training situational awareness and knife work, then it starts to depart from that while using it as a tool. I play it (badly, after many injuries and no instructor for a very long time) and teach it to some interested students who do combat sambo almost as a meditation on body mechanics and fight principles (I earned gant jaune way back in the day but would CLEARLY be on the technical track were I good enough to get back up to snuff). I think the distinction between technical and sporting track alone suggests a broad inclusive definition should be considered.
Am I the only who find it very strange that there seems to be no Savate nor Karate document which indicates the French exported their kicks to Japanese Karate?
I had heard that savant was used on ships using the ropes of the rigging to their advantage and wore hard shoes or do I have the wrong combat form?
Hi Jake, you have the right art. It is possible Chausson (slipper fighting, a precursor of BF Savate) was influenced in the way you described, especially with its origins around the maritime centre of Marseilles, but hard evidence for this is sketchy.
I know this is debated, but the high kicks derived from chausson are virtually *identical* to the kicks I learned from Shaolin kung fu and related styles, right down to the stepping and the hand positions. The hand strikes thrown from the hip look remarkably similar to the those of kung styles that utilize those kicks. Given that it emerged in a port city in a country with a 1000 year history of trade with China, it's really hard to ignore a likely Chinese influence.
That being said, there were styles of no-rules pugilism and street fighting extant in France, Italy and Britain, just like any culture really. So even if it had some Chinese influence, Savate would still be a natively European martial art in the same way that Muay Thai is a Thai art despite its incorporation of western boxing.
I've been researching this recently, and I'm more and more convinced that the kicking techniques of savate are not only a native invention, they were "stolen" by many Asian martials arts, particularly karate and by extension TKD. Despite my comment above, I increasingly suspect that many of the kicks I learned were influenced more by other martial arts and Bruce Lee (who emulated savate with JKD), and the traditional kicking methods in northern kung fu styles are quite distinct from savate. The possibility that savate influenced some kung fu styles rather than the other way around can't be ruled out either.
Hello! Savate could be influenced by today's Thailand. You can see my 2 videos about Karate and Savate influence.
Savate is not really French Boxing within my knowledge...it's only a "marketing" term for the transformation of Savate by Charlemont and the people of it's time to the sporting of Savate French Boxing.
I agree that FBoxing is mostly a XIX century sport founded on the pursuit of a better human following the sports movement in France.
Great video with alot of info. Cheers, Renato
Thanks for your kind words. Yes, because of the French colonial presence in East Asia, many people infer a Thai or Asian influence in Savate development. Yet I have not seen any primary or secondary sources - beyond the coincidence - that says it is anything more than possible. You are smart to say 'could be'. If you have some, please send it my way :) In any case, my own view is that it is more useful to be concerned with understanding with what we have now. Enjoy your training!
@@LondonSavateThanks again for other great points. There are links in history in French language (btw if you need any translation I can help) of demos of Siam Kingdom martial arts to french officials and military. In my video here (after 6') I talk about that ;) th-cam.com/video/qJVzGXKnQvo/w-d-xo.html
@@LondonSavate and I do agree that the NOW is more important a focus worthy
It does not come from Asia mate.
It's impossible. Mearly because it was used before they colonized anything in asia.
Savate is older than Judo
Savate forme looks like fun! Especially if the ladies are in shape ;)
Is Karate also “made safe”?
If you do kata, as @martinomalley says below, you make it safe by removing a partner from the equation. Full-contact knockdown karate looks pretty unsafe when they are fighting, but this necessarily removes techniques designed to kill from the equation. Either way, made safe in some aspect.
In one or other of the two ways described in the video, yes.
You have the Dangerous Movements Done Slowly / Without Contact - eg Kata / Kata Application, and you have the Movements Made Safe (including targets restricted) Done At Speed / With Contact - eg Competitive Matches (rules vary).
Brilliant video. I'd like to call savate a martial art but only becuase I feel like it makes more sense to me personally to incorporate that philosophy into practise of sport as well.
May I also say that krav maga was not actually developed for the Israeli military originally, it was actually first devised in Hungary during world war two by Imi Lichtenfeld, and it was originally a combination of wrestling and dirty boxing, along with a changed mind set from being more sport orientated to more martial based after learning the hard way that a fascist gang picking on a local Jewish family may need more aggression based combative motivation. When isreal became a country, Imi was the one who gained a high reputation after the war was over for showing the local jewish hungarians how to defend themselves, and it was then he ended up being the one asked to be a hand to hand combative instructor for the Israeli military. These days with krav maga there is a lot of controversy when it comes to it's label, becuase in isreal currently, krav maga when taught is something like a two week course (I think it might be less then that) and it is more focused on basic close quarters combat with teaching the mind to be more aggressive towards danger, as it being the opposite when taught in the west where it is more self defense based (I.e getting away from the danger) so now there are a lot of opinions darting around weather or not it should be classed as a martial art becuase of these things, but that's only becuase the literal translating for krav maga is "contact combat", and it is pretty much the same as how any other combative form compared to other specual forces /militry. Personally I don't really think it matters XD.
What would your opinion on that matter be?
Thanks for filling in some krav maga history, which I didn't know about. I think you've added another interesting dimension to the discussion - that of aggression vs self-preservation. Does a martial art necessarily have aggressive intent? Great question. My view is that it reveals further how a single term 'martial art' is insufficient to describe every variant of fighting. The purpose of posing the question is not to include or disqualify certain arts, but to help us investigate and understand what we do. So I agree with your summary - I don't think it matters - so long as it helps us to think better.
@@LondonSavate I'll drink to that my friend 🙂
How old is Savate?
Most would trace the origins of the format used today to Charles Lecour in the 1830s or Jospeh Charlemont in the 1890s
Yes it is.
How many total kicks in Savate?
Good question. There are 4 named kicks: Fouetté, Chassé, Revers, Coup de Pied Bas. The Chassé and Revers can be done frontal or latéral, so you might add 2 variants there. Plus there are 3 heights (low, middle, high) which changes a little the technique but not much the nature of the kick. Thanks!
@@LondonSavate Can you do a review on Lee Chaolan of Tekken 7.
Is it pure Savate? Thanks great video.
@@jackjax7921 Hey Jack, I also train Savate though not nearly at the level of James, but maybe I can answer your question.
Love Tekken (Bad at it though) and while its a fun game full of diverse fighters its very rare that the fighters in it look much like the style they are said to represent.
Lee/Violet has a few techniques that look a little like Savate techniques but if I look at him as a whole I don't really see a Savate fighter. One of the big things he is missing is the lateral movement (Side stepping) that you frequently see in Savate alongside the chambering of most of the kicks.
Here Lee throws a 1-2 followed by a roundhouse/fouette kick. This technqiue is frequently thrown in Savate but with a bit more of a chamber on the kick. By chamber I mean the knee comes up then the leg goes out rather that the leg being swung upwards.
th-cam.com/video/5KYzTvYBJqo/w-d-xo.html
On this counter hit launcher after he Lee kicks the opponent into the air the side kick or chasse has a chamber somewhat similar to how many savate practioners throw the technique.
th-cam.com/video/5KYzTvYBJqo/w-d-xo.html
This next combo 1-2 High kick. IS thrown with no chamber and a full rotation on the kick. This is far similar to a Thai or Kyokushin style round house where they will power through their stike and often swing the strike upwards. This is powerful but a Savate practioner is more likely to bring their leg up kick to the head and then return to their original stance in sacrificing some power for control and balance.
th-cam.com/video/5KYzTvYBJqo/w-d-xo.html
Lee quite uses backfists and spinning backfists which are not allowed in Savate competitions.
This next set of kicks however do look quite similar to a Savate style fouette. You can see the chambering of the kick and Lee throwing multiple kicks on one leg, which you see quite often in Savates lighter contact form of competition called assaut.
th-cam.com/video/5KYzTvYBJqo/w-d-xo.html2
Sadly ive also never seen a Savatuer kick someone with a backflip. In fact im pretty sure it would be against the rules if they could, as awesome as it would look.
My conclusion is that Lee/Violet doesn't look like a Savate fighter, however some of his techniques are similar to those in Savate but albeit stylised version to work better in game.
@@jackjax7921 Jack, I don't know anything about Tekken but @cm13th trains with me and I trust his opinion.
@@LondonSavate Last question who are best Savate fighters of all time?
Savate is a shoes
I would say it’s a marshal art anything can be if the mind is on the application of it. Now to say the word competition is a like philosophy compared to Krav Maga or wu shu is in my opinion wrong due to the fact you can not find your self a practitioner of art if you need some one else to practice with or the end result is sparing with some one cause Krav Magas mind set is to take another’s life how can you say old shoe is this ? Yes you get attributes or byproducts of good practice like sportsman ship and discipline but I wouldn’t say there the same.
Check it carefully. French savate appeared before or after French conquered to Laotian. Lethwei (Burma/Myanmar), Muay Thai (Thailand), Khun khamar (Cambodia) came from same root (southern India) and arrived south east Asia with Mahayana Buddhism/Ari Buddhism in around 10 century AD (India, Burma, Lao, Cambodia were colonialized and colonial governments forbid their martial art, except Thai which never been colonialized and therefore Muay Thai became well-known martial art. Now Burma, Cambodia got chance to mention their martial art and appeared again. Unfortunately this art is totally disappeared in its birth place, India. Remember, Chinese Shao Lin martial art was established by Indian Buddhist monk, Bodhi Dharma.) Some said that French took it from south east Asian and invented as theirs. Please check it carefully. Perhaps they are right. French savate has no knee strike and elbow strike. Muay Thai & Khun Khamar use 8 limps (2 fists, 2 elbows, 2 knees, 2 legs) while Lethwei uses 9 limps (including head butt).
Please check these facts.
1) Savate: The modern formalized form is mainly an amalgam of French street fighting techniques from the beginning of the 19th century.
2) Muay Thai: is believed to have been developed by the Siamese army as a form of self-defence and it can be traced at least to the 16th century as a peace-time martial art practised by the soldiers of King Naresuan. An exhibition of Muay Thai was observed and reported by Simon de la Loubère, a French diplomat who was sent by King Louis XIV to the Kingdom of Siam in 1687, in his famous work and the Ayutthaya Kingdom Burmese-Siamese War (1765-1767).
3) Lethwei: The traditional martial arts of Myanmar are regrouped under a term called "thaing", which includes bando, banshay, naban, shan gyi and Lethwei. According to researchers, thaing can be traced in its earliest form to the 12th century of the Pagan Kingdom dynasty. Lethwei went through many years of suppression during the British colonial rule of Burma. The sport was revived under General Ne Win's nationalistic government. Compared to Muay Thai, in Lethwei, punches are generally favoured over kicks because of their ability to draw blood easier.
4) Kun Khamar (a) pradal serey: The story of pradal serey starts with the Khmer Empire. The Khmer Empire was founded in 802 A.D. at a time when many modern Southeast Asian countries didn't exist yet. Martial arts were used by the military of the Khmer Empire. Pradal Serey has its root from the hand-to-hand combat use by the military of the Khmer Empire. In the Angkor era, both armed and unarmed martial arts were practiced by the Khmers. Evidence shows that a style resembling pradal serey existed in the 9th century, which may be one of the reasons why the Khmer Empire was such a military powerhouse in Southeast Asia. The Khmer Empire used an early form of pradal serey along with various weapons and war elephants to wage war against their main enemy, the principalities of Champa.
The combat between Vāli and Sugrīva is depicted on the western gopura of the Banteay Srei (967 A.D.). Thrust kicks and clinching depicted in the bas-relief are still used in pradal serey today.
At this time, the Khmer Empire dominated and controlled most of what is now Cambodia, Laos, Thailand and parts of Vietnam. As a result, Cambodia has influenced much of Thai and Lao culture. This leads the Khmer to assert all Southeast Asian forms of boxing started with the early Mon-Khmer people (Mon-Khmer people living coastal area of southern Burma, southern Thai).
CONCLUSION: Savate (beginning of the 19th century), Muay Thai (16th century), Lethwei (12th century), Kun Khamar (a) pradal serey (802 A.D.).