Just some quick corrections: - Marth and Sheik can also react to everything out of crouch. The way I phrased it made it sound like Sheik couldn't react, which I knew (I've seen Faceroll do it plenty of times), but I also didn't know Marth could cover every option on reaction. - Walking forward will help Marth hit the CC f-smash, but you can also ASDI towards the opponent (achieved by holding crouch diagonally towards opponent or using c-stick diagonally towards opponent) to better close the distance when pushed away - Falcon has better options, making f-smash not a good recommendation. Grab is still good, but he can also short hop knee or dair, or raptor boost, among other options. Hope that clears up any mistakes I might have made. I'm trying to make these videos as accurate as possible, but Melee is such a complex game something always slips through the cracks.
MichaelRadar Thanks for making this video! I’m one month into the game after playing Smash 4 since its release and I’m already making huge strides for myself. This information will definitely be put to good use.
Keep on liking, subscribing, upvoting etc and I won't! I'm really trying to get this channel off the ground and every little bit helps. Glad to hear you're enjoying the channel! I'm enjoying making videos!
I learned that you're a fellow Canadian today and it made me feel oddly proud :) You consistently make some of the best melee tutorial content I've seen. Keep it up!
TheBeggies95 originally I lived in Mississauga Ontario, and then last May I moved to Vancouver with my girlfriend! However, I did a road trip to the east coast two summers ago and it was beautiful! Drove through New Brunswick, looked chill.
You're videos are really usefull and interesting content. Editing well done and you go thoroughly and not too slow through all the stuff. 5/5 Melee vids
Glad you liked it! I'd say this was my hardest video, maybe tied with the Falco kill setups in terms of pure hours...¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I'm glad it shows though. This video took so much effort and the fact that it had to be pushed back due to how long it took + other commitments was really a bummer. Because of work I'm pretty much only able to really work on videos on saturday/sunday, and sometimes there just isn't enough time in the weekend to finish!
Thanks! Yeah it's definitely a lot of work to make each video, and sometimes that can get overwhelming when work starts asking me for overtime etc... I really want to still produce weekly content, but I also am starting to realize I can't truly guarantee that... Hopefully other people feel the same and don't mind if I'm a little behind sometimes!
Good video but one thing you should talk about is CCing with your control stick at the notch so you asdi the attack slightly in. If you're a character who wants to grab after you can also hold cstick toward the opponent to get more distance on the asdi but this requires a weird setup and makes your followup harder. Also Marth can cover everything on reaction, Druggedfox has a post talking about it on the blog. Marth's fsmash connects on getup attack if you asdi in / cc at notch. In addition to the grab followup you discuss you can sourspot uptilt if you're at low percent or dash upB at high percent. You fsmash roll behind and you either upB or pivot fsmash roll away.
Awesome dude! It's pretty difficult to research, test, and cover everything myself, so I knew there were gonna be things I left out. Having people clarify or add on to the existing material is super helpful! As long as the ASDI isn't directly to the right, that wouldn't affect the crouch cancelling, so you're totally right. I'll definitely experiment with that in my own gameplay. Ultimately the point of the video was to cover some common options, not every single possible option for each character. I intentionally left out concepts like dashing back out of crouch for example just to keep the video short, as it already was quite long!
Luigi and ICs definitely DO have punishes after crouching GUAs. I only bothered to test Luigi at 104% since that was your first example, but here's the breakdown: - Luigi is +30 after CCing GUA since he lands almost immediately. - Luigi is +16 after a perfectly timed WD. That means you can easily hit with literally any move other than side-B and taunt. - If you hold down+in, you noticeably reduce the distance you're sent, but even without doing so, Luigi's WD goes PLENTY far to get right next to Fox before he is actionable. - If WDing towards the opponent seems too difficult, you can always just misfire into them instead.
I'm still not sure what you mean by +30 or +16. Are you suggesting luigi has 30 frames to punish after GUA? That's literally never true with any character in the game. I tested this by having a second player shield as soon as they possible could, and tried to punish afterwards in a variety of ways. On top of this, I researched the frame data to determine the defenders frame advantage after they CC a getup attack. This accounts for the fact that some characters getup attacks are significantly less laggy than others. For example because Marth's getup attack isn't very laggy , you only have 15 frames to punish it...against Samus/Falcon/Sheik/Yoshi/Ganon you have 17. Luigi's wavedash alone takes 14 frames (wavedash is jump squat plus 10). I'm not sure how he could possibly punish Marth's getup attack for example in 15 frames with a "perfectly timed wavedash" when he literally doesn't have a one frame move to follow up after his wavedash... I actually believe misfire is viable, but no one would really consider that a practical option considering it's based on luck....
I'm not trying to be a dick, but are you even testing with debug mode? It honestly seems like you just had your friend hit you with GUAs in training mode and you weren't able to punish doing the inputs manually (and even that is inexcusable considering how easy the immediate dsmash punish is). Here are some gifs; you can go frame by frame and I left the input display on at the top so you can see that you have plenty of frames to punish in a variety of ways on both the front and back hits of GUA. gfycat.com/WellgroomedPessimisticAfricanjacana gfycat.com/TautHalfDogwoodclubgall gfycat.com/SkeletalReliableIberianmole gfycat.com/DecimalFatBluefintuna
@MichaleRadar is it possible for certain characters with strong wave dash out of shield game like marth to just shield in front of a knocked down opponent and still cover all options?
Apparently according to druggedfox, Marth can actually cover all options. He can cover tech roll in by f-smashing behind him, and cover roll away with dash forward up-b/pivot f-smash. Sounds tricky af though. However, if you shield I doubt that’s possible. Shielding getup attack is totally an option but it’s generally more of a commitment and can’t cover options as well. Wavedashing our of shield takes 14 frames which doesn’t leave you with enough frames to f-smash afterwards for example.
I’m actually releasing a correction video in regards to this video, I’ve just been kind of behind because my dog had surgery so I need to take care of him. The main thing I got wrong was that if you crouch down and towards your opponent, this allows you to follow up on punishes that wouldn’t work otherwise. This allows characters like Luigi and ICs to get a punish. All the percents and stuff are still correct, but I didn’t do enough testing with Luigi and ICs!
In the second video (spreadsheet explanation) I address this point. I imagine staling is a factor with a two-hit getup attack, but I didn't factor that in. I did test it beforehand though and based on the stale queue on ikneedata, it would probably increase the percent by 1%. This is because the double-hit data assumes the hits add 6 percent each. If the second hit added 5%, you'd have 1% more room to work with. In the interest of guaranteed accuracy, I chose to not include staling into the final numbers. Better to know it works than to assume you have one extra percent to work with, but not be sure...ya know? If anyone wants to test this, I'd love to bump everything up by one! It's worth mentioning staling is very unlikely to affect the single hit of a get-up attack...it could happen but it's not practical to predict it would. You'd have to have some scenario where they're consistently getting knocked down and only using get-up attack and that just doesn't really happen hahaha.
BurritoGalaxy apparently if you crouch diagonally towards your opponent or c-stick diagonally, you can ASDI towards them and hit it! Didn’t think of that when testing. Also, yup you could downsmash! Good point.
Hey, great content. I'd recommend using different content in the opening than the ones you see in your 'lesson'. It just reduces the 'fatigue' from seeing the same visual again and again. Otherwise, good stuff, been enjoying the channel for a couple months now.
Totally agree. Worth mentioning that I try to mix it up but remember that it takes me several hours (have definitely dedicated 10+ hours on some videos) sorting through pro footage just to find the clips I want. It's not like there's some resource that exists of every time a pro crouch cancelled a getup attack. Once I've found clips I like, I usually focus on other aspects of the video. Trying to come out with content on such a regular basis forces me to make these kinds of decisions just so I can get it to certain level.
Adrian Valenzuela mhm! I still appreciate the feedback a ton. I just think people really overlook how long it takes to get footage for stuff like this. For the Falco kill setups videos, it sometimes took hours just to find one example.
Derpy apparently Luigi can wavedash forward down smash and that’s 20 frames. However sometimes the amount of frames you have after CC get up attack is lower than 20. I also think a frame perfect punish isn’t super realistic when opponent can just hold shield. As for ICs, I’m not sure. From my testing it seemed way too far but someone could prove me wrong. Either way they’re hard to execute, don’t work against certain characters, and might just not work altogether. So that’s why I didn’t include it!
Ricky Johnson yup! I was thorough. Most characters have only one hitbox for both, or two hitboxes for both sides. Samus was one of the few I remember off the top of my head where she does the “normal” hitbox on one side, and the hard hitting one on the other. Since I didn’t think people would realistically be able to check which side she landed on, I didn’t bother making a special case for Samus when her percents are already different lol
you said the mario bros have 2 hitboxes but the different one is weaker... but thats only true if youre at 160% or lower. 0.50(x) + 80 is equal to 0.100(x) when x is 160. So at 160+ your knockdown % goes up vs Mario bros.
Just some quick corrections:
- Marth and Sheik can also react to everything out of crouch. The way I phrased it made it sound like Sheik couldn't react, which I knew (I've seen Faceroll do it plenty of times), but I also didn't know Marth could cover every option on reaction.
- Walking forward will help Marth hit the CC f-smash, but you can also ASDI towards the opponent (achieved by holding crouch diagonally towards opponent or using c-stick diagonally towards opponent) to better close the distance when pushed away
- Falcon has better options, making f-smash not a good recommendation. Grab is still good, but he can also short hop knee or dair, or raptor boost, among other options.
Hope that clears up any mistakes I might have made. I'm trying to make these videos as accurate as possible, but Melee is such a complex game something always slips through the cracks.
MichaelRadar great video
MichaelRadar Thanks for making this video! I’m one month into the game after playing Smash 4 since its release and I’m already making huge strides for myself. This information will definitely be put to good use.
Thank you for clarifying this, when I got to that section, I went down here immediately.
If you can run up grab with falco can you not run up/wavedash shine? Or does the shine hitbox not reach far enough?
Don't stop making these!
Keep on liking, subscribing, upvoting etc and I won't! I'm really trying to get this channel off the ground and every little bit helps. Glad to hear you're enjoying the channel! I'm enjoying making videos!
Hell yes, we need more content like this. Good work man!
Idk if anybody has said this before but the fact that you use complementary colours for your thumbnails is fucking godlike lol
I learned that you're a fellow Canadian today and it made me feel oddly proud :)
You consistently make some of the best melee tutorial content I've seen. Keep it up!
88zachary88 Canada is lit 🇨🇦
CANADA BABY! Are any of you close to new brunswick??
TheBeggies95 originally I lived in Mississauga Ontario, and then last May I moved to Vancouver with my girlfriend! However, I did a road trip to the east coast two summers ago and it was beautiful! Drove through New Brunswick, looked chill.
TheBeggies95 hell yeah NB circle jerk lets go.
Nice man!! I need to see Vancouver someday, looks very beautiful!!
88zachary88, where are you from in Nb man!?
"If you have a big brain" LMAO
Your melee videos are really well done. Simple. Easy. Clean.
Thanks Radar, putting this to use 6 years later while watching the Egg Dog Invitational.
these really help fill in some significant gaps in mine and other players' game knowledge. earned a sub, keep it up!
Holy crap that spreadsheet is a godsend. Great work as always!
Yes! I love micro and macro melee
That sentence reminds me of star craft 2
Thanks for putting in all this work. Always nice to see a new vid.
surprised nobody has compiled this info before! good stuff man
"if you have a big brain..." Did Hugo write this?
Everything I know about Melee I learned from Grandpa Hugo
Best channel for improving,
small things make the difference
keep it up
You're videos are really usefull and interesting content. Editing well done and you go thoroughly and not too slow through all the stuff. 5/5 Melee vids
Great video as usual man! Please don't stop these!
Very nice. I can tell you put a lot of work into this one.
Glad you liked it! I'd say this was my hardest video, maybe tied with the Falco kill setups in terms of pure hours...¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I'm glad it shows though. This video took so much effort and the fact that it had to be pushed back due to how long it took + other commitments was really a bummer. Because of work I'm pretty much only able to really work on videos on saturday/sunday, and sometimes there just isn't enough time in the weekend to finish!
Your videos are amazing and your graphic design skills are equally great!
this is such a great series. And perfect speech
About time someone explains this
wtf this is amazing how did i not know about your content before???? immediate sub dude. this is outstanding stuff
Amazing video, man! Had no idea getupattack was that CC-able
Great video as always don't worry about the delay take your time this are amazing
Thanks! Yeah it's definitely a lot of work to make each video, and sometimes that can get overwhelming when work starts asking me for overtime etc... I really want to still produce weekly content, but I also am starting to realize I can't truly guarantee that...
Hopefully other people feel the same and don't mind if I'm a little behind sometimes!
You're doing great work man, keep it up!
Thanks! Glad people like the channel. Makes the hard work worth it!
Love this video man, thank you so much, your videos are awesome!
you're doing gods work :D
Good video but one thing you should talk about is CCing with your control stick at the notch so you asdi the attack slightly in. If you're a character who wants to grab after you can also hold cstick toward the opponent to get more distance on the asdi but this requires a weird setup and makes your followup harder. Also Marth can cover everything on reaction, Druggedfox has a post talking about it on the blog. Marth's fsmash connects on getup attack if you asdi in / cc at notch. In addition to the grab followup you discuss you can sourspot uptilt if you're at low percent or dash upB at high percent. You fsmash roll behind and you either upB or pivot fsmash roll away.
Awesome dude! It's pretty difficult to research, test, and cover everything myself, so I knew there were gonna be things I left out. Having people clarify or add on to the existing material is super helpful!
As long as the ASDI isn't directly to the right, that wouldn't affect the crouch cancelling, so you're totally right. I'll definitely experiment with that in my own gameplay. Ultimately the point of the video was to cover some common options, not every single possible option for each character. I intentionally left out concepts like dashing back out of crouch for example just to keep the video short, as it already was quite long!
Really intuitive, thanks!
wow amazing video !
Such a good channel
Luigi and ICs definitely DO have punishes after crouching GUAs. I only bothered to test Luigi at 104% since that was your first example, but here's the breakdown:
- Luigi is +30 after CCing GUA since he lands almost immediately.
- Luigi is +16 after a perfectly timed WD. That means you can easily hit with literally any move other than side-B and taunt.
- If you hold down+in, you noticeably reduce the distance you're sent, but even without doing so, Luigi's WD goes PLENTY far to get right next to Fox before he is actionable.
- If WDing towards the opponent seems too difficult, you can always just misfire into them instead.
What kind of testing did you do? You realize that the defender frame advantage after CC is different depending on the getup attack right?
What kind of testing did *you* do? I did Fox's GUA from his back on the first hit side, exactly like in your example @ 6:09.
I'm still not sure what you mean by +30 or +16. Are you suggesting luigi has 30 frames to punish after GUA? That's literally never true with any character in the game.
I tested this by having a second player shield as soon as they possible could, and tried to punish afterwards in a variety of ways. On top of this, I researched the frame data to determine the defenders frame advantage after they CC a getup attack. This accounts for the fact that some characters getup attacks are significantly less laggy than others.
For example because Marth's getup attack isn't very laggy , you only have 15 frames to punish it...against Samus/Falcon/Sheik/Yoshi/Ganon you have 17. Luigi's wavedash alone takes 14 frames (wavedash is jump squat plus 10). I'm not sure how he could possibly punish Marth's getup attack for example in 15 frames with a "perfectly timed wavedash" when he literally doesn't have a one frame move to follow up after his wavedash...
I actually believe misfire is viable, but no one would really consider that a practical option considering it's based on luck....
I'm not trying to be a dick, but are you even testing with debug mode? It honestly seems like you just had your friend hit you with GUAs in training mode and you weren't able to punish doing the inputs manually (and even that is inexcusable considering how easy the immediate dsmash punish is). Here are some gifs; you can go frame by frame and I left the input display on at the top so you can see that you have plenty of frames to punish in a variety of ways on both the front and back hits of GUA.
gfycat.com/WellgroomedPessimisticAfricanjacana
gfycat.com/TautHalfDogwoodclubgall
gfycat.com/SkeletalReliableIberianmole
gfycat.com/DecimalFatBluefintuna
Bones0 I retested it and you’re right. I didn’t do enough extensive testing the first time. Probably gonna upload a correction video
Bruh you're a god thanks
This is sooo useful thanks so much ❤️
With falcon if you struggle with dashing back out of crunch you can fade back stomp the roll behind you.
In doc vs Marth, if you dash into crouch at the right timing, you can completely avoid.the getup attack
Sam Vondersaar in Puff vs Marth you can crouch under it entirely lmao
Thanks a lot! I love your channel
Great vid. Thank you
Cool video man
Sweet video thanks for the useful info!
You're awesome. Keep it up.
Typo at 3:55, "the check spreadsheet" instead of "check the spreadsheet"
@MichaleRadar is it possible for certain characters with strong wave dash out of shield game like marth to just shield in front of a knocked down opponent and still cover all options?
Apparently according to druggedfox, Marth can actually cover all options. He can cover tech roll in by f-smashing behind him, and cover roll away with dash forward up-b/pivot f-smash. Sounds tricky af though.
However, if you shield I doubt that’s possible. Shielding getup attack is totally an option but it’s generally more of a commitment and can’t cover options as well. Wavedashing our of shield takes 14 frames which doesn’t leave you with enough frames to f-smash afterwards for example.
Dash into pivot D-smash for samus? Haven't tested it but it seems like it would work
Love this!
falcon kill setups please
Haven't tested, but waiting a little before f smashing as marth when cc against fox looks like it would work
I’m actually releasing a correction video in regards to this video, I’ve just been kind of behind because my dog had surgery so I need to take care of him. The main thing I got wrong was that if you crouch down and towards your opponent, this allows you to follow up on punishes that wouldn’t work otherwise. This allows characters like Luigi and ICs to get a punish. All the percents and stuff are still correct, but I didn’t do enough testing with Luigi and ICs!
did you take into account staling? not sure if get up attack even has it, just curious
In the second video (spreadsheet explanation) I address this point. I imagine staling is a factor with a two-hit getup attack, but I didn't factor that in. I did test it beforehand though and based on the stale queue on ikneedata, it would probably increase the percent by 1%. This is because the double-hit data assumes the hits add 6 percent each. If the second hit added 5%, you'd have 1% more room to work with.
In the interest of guaranteed accuracy, I chose to not include staling into the final numbers. Better to know it works than to assume you have one extra percent to work with, but not be sure...ya know? If anyone wants to test this, I'd love to bump everything up by one!
It's worth mentioning staling is very unlikely to affect the single hit of a get-up attack...it could happen but it's not practical to predict it would. You'd have to have some scenario where they're consistently getting knocked down and only using get-up attack and that just doesn't really happen hahaha.
B I G B R A I N
So why can falco CC at stupid percents?
DJay Phresh ? Most of the characters CC at high percents? Falco is on the lower side actually for this technique.
Covers all options except roll to the right. Everything, excluding roll the to right
marth can do downsmash instead of f smash im fairly sure, its useful vs floaties especially Edit: Other than that amazing vid, i like this format
BurritoGalaxy apparently if you crouch diagonally towards your opponent or c-stick diagonally, you can ASDI towards them and hit it! Didn’t think of that when testing.
Also, yup you could downsmash! Good point.
Hey, great content. I'd recommend using different content in the opening than the ones you see in your 'lesson'. It just reduces the 'fatigue' from seeing the same visual again and again. Otherwise, good stuff, been enjoying the channel for a couple months now.
Totally agree.
Worth mentioning that I try to mix it up but remember that it takes me several hours (have definitely dedicated 10+ hours on some videos) sorting through pro footage just to find the clips I want. It's not like there's some resource that exists of every time a pro crouch cancelled a getup attack.
Once I've found clips I like, I usually focus on other aspects of the video. Trying to come out with content on such a regular basis forces me to make these kinds of decisions just so I can get it to certain level.
Totally, the effort is evident. Just a thought as you move forward and continue to polish the videos. Keep at it.
Adrian Valenzuela mhm! I still appreciate the feedback a ton. I just think people really overlook how long it takes to get footage for stuff like this. For the Falco kill setups videos, it sometimes took hours just to find one example.
Luigis and ICies can wavedash back towards the opponent can't they?
Derpy apparently Luigi can wavedash forward down smash and that’s 20 frames. However sometimes the amount of frames you have after CC get up attack is lower than 20. I also think a frame perfect punish isn’t super realistic when opponent can just hold shield.
As for ICs, I’m not sure. From my testing it seemed way too far but someone could prove me wrong. Either way they’re hard to execute, don’t work against certain characters, and might just not work altogether. So that’s why I didn’t include it!
But did you take into account that most(all?) characters have 2 get up attacks depending on how they got knocked down?
Ricky Johnson yup! I was thorough. Most characters have only one hitbox for both, or two hitboxes for both sides. Samus was one of the few I remember off the top of my head where she does the “normal” hitbox on one side, and the hard hitting one on the other. Since I didn’t think people would realistically be able to check which side she landed on, I didn’t bother making a special case for Samus when her percents are already different lol
As a luigi main i thought i was bad not getting anything off cc. Now i understand its simply not possible
RIP my boy luigi
Adrian Ruelas he actually can do it! I got that wrong, my bad lol. the input was kinda strange but a guy tested it and it’s definitely possible!
@@Radarssbm Could you(or anyone reading this) elaborate on this, or link to a video about it?
NotaSkeleton it really had to do with me just executing poorly, but also if you DI down and in, it’s easier to execute properly!
What about d smash for marth
The options I showed were just some of the many options you can do, experiment and find out what you like!
you said the mario bros have 2 hitboxes but the different one is weaker... but thats only true if youre at 160% or lower. 0.50(x) + 80 is equal to 0.100(x) when x is 160. So at 160+ your knockdown % goes up vs Mario bros.
Erik Anton Seastead the second hitbox actually has set knockback, so percent doesn’t matter lol.
so that fucking explains why I get knocked down
fucking double-hits
Angle : Sakurai?!?!
KoenBo www.ssbwiki.com/Sakurai_angle I figured someone would ask this. Check it out, it’s pretty interesting!
F 6:09
nerds just smoke n play 64
That pink/blue combination is making my eyes bleed.
In general, or just for the more data focused parts? I’ve gotten lots of compliments on the design so it’s hard to know what’s better haha.
In my case I gotta say all of it, maybe make the font have a darker-pink outline to separate the colors a bit more? :P
Trigger warning, a lot of micro aggression in this video