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Those modular PC cards were the way everything was done in the 70s and most of the 80s. Most applications are very efficient both for speed and ease of troubleshooting. They fell out of popularity for several reasons, but mostly because cheaper (and crappier alternatives) became available. I ran a bowling center for 22 years. For the first 20 years, I had AMF AccuScore II scoring units. Each pair of lanes had a curtain wall chassis with 5 modular PC cards. I had spares on hand and downtime was minimal. The Qubica system that replaced it when my owner decided to "modernize" was a series of networked Linux based units. The old system would boot up in about 10 seconds including self-diagnostics with pinspotters, foul lines, etc. That's because the assembly level programming was stored on eproms. The newer system stayed on all the time (burning electricity) and took about 20 minutes if a reboot was needed... which was frequent.
Yep, like ben said about the high level shit, it probably connects to the internet to download ads or some shit
I can actually imagine some less competent graduates wanting to implement such a system in javascript, using 2Gb of memory just to do nothing. They will never get real jobs as embedded developers though. Multiple boards were used because everything is through hole, boards are likely only 2 layer, components were far less integrated from this era. There is an awful lot of stuff done in hardware that would be implemented in software in modern design. Modern microcontroller for example has on board flash, memory, clock generator, I/O. On 80s design, much of this would have been multiple discrete chips, maybe even using a full board. It also looks to be a physically complicated system with a lot of sensors/wiring. You could easily implement the same system using modern tools, with far lower part count/cost. I wouldn't relate technology of the implementation to the actual control strategy. Writing software in asm would be poor use of time. Most people will do a worse job than a compiler, and the designed behaviour will be met by the code either way. Behaviour is not a consequence of implementation. The opposite should be true, particularly in something as safety critical as this, where it will be rigorously tested against design constraints. I wonder why they do not use such a control strategy in modern systems. Most likely high part count and the extensive wiring requirements, maintenance and installation cost, and overall physical complexity. Some bean counter likely dictates that - who for obvious reasons is never going to go anywhere near a lift shaft. I'm sure engineers would love to build a more complex system, but western countries are now being stripped bear by the financial vultures. Design compromises are not just technical.
I won't be surprised if some cheap lift logics created by modern day programmers would use actual Java, every time a button is pressed the os will load the JIT compiler which then will interpret the CLASS into machine code while taking up loads of memory and time.
Old lift logic: An Arduino but more complex. You literally program it using C.
New lift logic: Raspberry Pi. Programmed with Python and runs on an OS.
Everything now just runs on CPU's now. With SUPER heavy kernels and stuff. this way they get NOT only complex but super unreliable honestly. RIP the days
I saw this on a building, the monitor output is connected to the ground floor to a modem display. It was a schlinder computer control XD.
This is so interesting and I've learnt so much. Beno you're a boss teacher
Why can't Schindler be like this today?!
Schindler is still the best European lift company here in Indonesia although their escalators often went crappy after a while imo
Rahan2003
😂
Schindler is the best elevator company
Elevators around the world
As of currently, Mitsubishi’s make very good reliable lifts
Cio Dokop yes
Miconic is awesome, we have a few buildings at my work with Schindler 700 (US) models and all run with MT/Miconic logic. Instant leveling, awesome accel and decel, smooth operation. I don't think ours have video out, but there is a desktop computer in the lobby that powers a terminal, which outputs the current position of each elevator, plus calls and locking, etc. Really neat system.
Do 700A use the Schindler W140 motor too?
I wonder how long it took them to design and perfect miconic advanced before it was released into the market
Great question 🙋♀️
About the modular thing: IBM PC XT is a good 80’s example of modularity, maybe schindler enginers got inspired by that?
WOW! This is awesome! I love Schindler M-Series!
Good video, am curled up in my mini TH-cam cinema watching
On the topic of computer graduates developing systems with operating systems underneath the software they have written, I recall several years ago (there might even still be a video on TH-cam of it), somebody posted a video of an ATM that hadn't booted properly after a power failure. The ATM software had only partly loaded and then crashed and the display clearly showed the machine was run by a vanilla copy of Windows XP.
The question is not how this was done back in the days, the question is, why any of todays tech isn't as good as it could be?
Because of the careless engineers.
Actually you could program this short of things not just in assembly. C or C++ considered high-level language, and you could perfectly do this with them. I did this not for a lift, but for a winding machine which spins at 12000 RPM then stops at the exact turns count you ask for. With the maximum possible accel/decel rate. No need to tinker with offsets, timings, etc. When the machine was new, the original controller had just a turns count, high-speed setting, low-speed setting and a threshold when to switch from high to low speed to maybe try to approach the target when all the stars line up. It would be acceptable for an 60s tech using switches and potmeters. But these were all settable digitally in a multi-level menu!!! As a developer it always makes me sad when there is an MCU in a device, there is a software, somebody worked on it, and it could do everything, but it is just not programmed to do the task it is made for and the user have to manually do things...
Clear representation of when the developers never actually used the thing or don't even know how it is used in it's field...
most of the logic's you see today are just rip-off's of the other ones. I bet many of these companies like Lester controls/TVC hardly have their own piece of code written ont hem
Amazing system, it’s got everything. That monitor has very sharp text, looks proper RGB to me, none of the composite video rubbish. I think the modularity is more of a reflection of the time, the density of the boards is quite low, like how the first IBM pc’s had lot’s of ISA cards in them, all dedicated to one purpose. Even for something as essential as a floppy drive you needed a full length controller card. The benefit of this modular design is that it is very repairable and easily serviceable unlike modern day tech. The software is probably cycle optimized, kind of like what game developers did on systems like the Sega Megadrive. It’s all 68000 assembly and they coded everything on the bare metal without any OS in between. The game code itself was the OS so to speak. Good programmers could do amazing things with it but bad programmers would show up with slow, sluggish animations and sloppy framerates. Sadly a lot of modern hardware is very complex. But certain things could really benefit from real time processing such as anything to do with audio. This doesn’t sit well with today’s multitasking environments..... Back in the 80’s when I was a kid everything seemed so magical and interresting nowerdays I get the “meh” feeling with a lot of new inventions. A lot of software these days is so horribly slow eventhough the hardware is faster then ever before. Any Autodesk product that I use is like that. Why do we still have loading screens or buisy wait cursors? It’s like the programmers put a lot of “do nothing” loops in their applications on purpose. Software should be called “slowware”😂.
R D I still use a 1080p TV, I see no benifit in 4K tv’s. Mostly because most people would be sitting about 3m away from the screen and the size must be really big to make it somewhat noticeable. With computer monitors it’s different, the viewing distance is much shorter. The jump from standard definition to high definition was big, but 4K, I am not going to hurry with that. When it comes to smartphones I was quite late to the party, until about a year ago I used a Nokia 3310 until the keypad gave up the ghost. Bought a second hand, refurbished iPhone SE that fit’s my needs as a replacement. I like the compact size and it’s quite an upgrade to what I was used to. It does the basic things I want to be able to do with a phone. I have been using tablets since about 2012, I quite liked them since they where first introduced. Mostly use it for watching youtube video’s and creating music. I like the ease of use, for me it’s a companion device along my PC. For gaming, I still use a PS3 and my classic consoles.
If I could, I would give you 10,000 likes. We think the same, I am surprised with the resources that are wasted on current hardware, each time they require more cpu, gpu to perform the same function.
Windows 10 is an example, it needs ssd because it is badly programmed and it needs an ssd to work, the uwp apps go super slow, badly programmed antivirus, forced updates, etc ... and the applications are getting worse and the games the same.
In the past, software wonders were created that worked really well under slow hardware.
It's actually a monochrome monitor, probably using composite.
@@und4287 looks like it wasn't composite (as the text is very sharp and doesn't have dot crawl or blurry text), also the monitor is not monochrome, as it can display white (using all RGB) aswell as blue.
Awesome. I remember those or very similar RS232 keyboards in a Farnell catalogue from either the late 80s or early 90s.
That explains it then. I am pretty certain that the monitor is just an RS232 output. Later on these logics just had serial ports and a laptop or handheld gadget is used to interface with it. Modern logics still do this in the modern day. For some reason lift logics did not make the switch to USB. But on this very old Schindler Miconic it must have pre dated serial ports? I didn't recognize the keyboard connector as I am not familiar with computers from the early 80s. Having the keyboard as a RS232 input makes sense to how lift logics work. I wonder how expensive this lift logic was considering it was the early days of this stuff. How similar would you say this lift logic is compared to what computer technology was available at the time?
@@benolifts The monitor is composite video. The use of an RS232 serial keyboard was rather popular in many embedded systems for industrial control.
Incredible piece of technology
The electronic prints (cards shown side by side ) are industrial design norm . SGI graphic stations used similar arrangements. The Miconic electronic prints were serviced easily by any local technician even without EBI official wiring information. Schindler Macro was the programming tool and Miconic system was based on out sourced US tecnology.
That is soooo cool! Especially that you can control the lifts from the terminal. Even modern logics only have a tiny LCD and a few buttons, and like you said, a serial port where you need a shit tonna software on the computer, and its designed to break easier ect. But this. It's soooooo cool, especially considering that its from the early 80's. Also, if it was written in Assembly, that's also so cool, cuz I have a hard time even with C. Also yea, this modern world is too high level, we have internet connected fridges, and all apps on the PC use 2gb of RAM. I miss the better times.
Evil Owl wants to know the location
Your channel was the last place I expected to see a Monacor monitor lol
The modular PCB system was called Eurocard I believe
Ben what camera do you use for your videos, very good quality
R D
Ah, because he has so good quality vids xD. Yeah I know nowerdays androids camera are very good. I heard he uses a lumix camera too
i bet that those engineers who created this logic didnt knew it would be this nice in the future
I think that modular design came from the mini-computers of the day, I believe some of the PDPs and maybe VAX had modular boards like that.
Kone lCE logic is my favourite
The modular circuit board design is because of the limitations of the technology of the day. You have to remember this is 40 year old technology. All the functionality contained in all those boards could easily be accomplished by a single processor today. If they hadn't placed all the different required components on separate boards you'd end up with a motherboard 1 meter square which would be a real pain to install anywhere, or transport anywhere or pretty much do anything with. So this way they end up with a nice compact little box. The same limitations in technology is why PC's of this era are also modular. They used what would eventually develop into PCI slots in modern computers. But back then things like modems, serial ports, parallel ports, video outputs etc would all be on their own cards because if you tried to put it all on the motherboard you'd end up with the same 1 meter by 1 meter board which would be a bit impractical.
That is one epic M Series
Hey austin this is guys
That is epic logic though
hey miconic this is schindler
@@milkandduckrailway323 hey miconic this is thames valley
Hey Lester controls this is miconic
stfu windowsxpnt
A good lift is one you're not in for very long
...and now compare this to newlift logic: Reboot sequence takes 2-3 minutes!
back in 2015 when I was practicing at an generic comapny making a modernisation, seeing this reboot sequence for the first time, I was like "Oh my god".
thats not normal... usually takes 30 seconds to reboot. I managed to make a lot of Newlifts (almost) fully intellegent. the "crawl distance" is usually set to 050mm by default and the engineers probably dont even know that you can change it all the way to 000. There is a very slightly delay still but it almost runs fully intellegnt then. After a software update from 2015 you can also enable pre start without any extra switches.
@benolifts do you work anywere?
From the looks of this, the scene in Die Hard where you have a computer controlling all the lifts, escalators, gates etc in the building is not unrealistic even given the date the movie is supposedly set in.
schindler probs: meh here's som lift fo yo shit
*accidentally creates highly intelligent logic*
Fine videos , film more.
Do these lifts use VF drives or DC pulsing?
Also, I rode a brand new schindler 5500 today. It appears that they have started to use MAD (american version of DMG) for their vandal resistant fixtures instead of higher quality adams survivor. Ugh.
These use pulsed AC. It isn't a VF drive as it doesn't generate AC, instead it chops into an AC supply. I thought that 1.6 m/s was the fastest speed for a non-VF AC lift, but these ate 2.5.
@@benolifts So it's variable voltage? Or do they chop bits out of a high-frequency AC wave to make a different wave?
You can probably start typing then hit the tab key to auto complete what you were typing
Now i know why the Schindler Miconics are faster than some other Lifts.
It's called smart people. They know how to do things properly with no previous example. Then they don't get paid enough, know they can do better, and quit and go work on things more important than elevator controllers. Stupid people come in and take their place, and hence why you get crap. Very simple.
Haha, wtf is this only program in assembly? No, you don't have to program in assembly to get things that work right. You just need people that know what they are doing.
If I am not wrong, this is Schindler Miconic V.
You're better than those logic lifts...
is the Schindler Miconic design basically a Schindler M-Series?
M stands for Miconic
@@benolifts ok so its the same
10:25 yes! IOT seems to be quite the trendy trend, the best thing since sliced bread. Everyone wants to stick that up everything's clacker. It's just mad.
I really wonder what microprocessor Miconic uses here. Considering it's from the 80's, the most common processor types were the Motorola 68K, the MOS 6502 (there was the 6501, but that got taken down by Motorola for patent infringement, because of one stupid processor layout engineer keeping the layout of the 68K on paper) and the Zilog Z80.
It would be a real-time microcontroller rather than a microprocessor. The user engineers interface would be a completely separate system to the main system that runs the lift. And there would be another separate system for the motor control. Running real world equipment is very different to running a computer. There is no operating system or layers of multi tasking. Any multi tasking of (lets say the motor controller and the lift controller) is done through having separate asynchronous real time real-time microcontrollers that talk to each other.
I would think it probably can upgrade to support UCMP without replacing the controller.
Actually the first laptop was the Osborne 1 made in 1980 but the only true laptop was the GRID compass in 1985
What about Mitsubishi’s? Is Miconic still better than Mitsubishi’s logic?
3rd! I haven't seen anyone else's video so soon after it was released. I like mechanical relay, pre digital lift logic. It ought to be in technology museums, in working order.
6th* xd
Woolf lecture theatre has a gen2 unfortunately
12:04 Flickering lights
Better than Mitsubishi?
Best logic ever indeed.
Ish Buckingham: they are wayyy tooooooooo old replace them with shit generics
A sensible human being: old mainly meens better so keep them
I'm going to disagree with you on the assembly only bit. I think C++ and nowadays maybe Rust are suitable for programming bare metal microcontrollers
Easy answer: back in the day Hardware and Low level languages were needed.
Today: bloated ass OS's and python
Microprocessors are computers Ben. Same thing. Washing machines, microwaves, TV's, cell phones, it's all computer controlled these days.
PC
For anyone out there that gets this joke:
God tier: Schindler Miconic (original)
Royalty tier: Kone LCE, Schindler Miconic MX-GC, Mitsubishi
Adam Sandler tier: ThyssenKrupp (AP/Germany)
Pleb tier: ThyssenKrupp (ISIS)
Would rather eat a bucket of cat vomit tier: Insert any shit generic logic here.
God tier: Schindler Miconic V (shown in this video)
LESTER CONTROLS BLIND VF
no old= not too good
I didn't understand a single piece of shit
@R D I see what you did there...
Boop 4 5 take car A beep beep beep Car A
Second
Minute
Hour
year
Decade
Millenium
(cxx tan loses, the reply of "week" was missed out)
So efficient, and yet redundant and no longer used, maintenance intensive, and unreliable, I think you might be slightly over excited by Schindler