Very important! I fortunately was taught this lesson early on by my college roommate Andrew. I said the equivalent of "nah man, I suck," and he very firmly said, "don't ever say that, because when you say that, I look dumb. This is me trying to connect with you after enjoying what you did. Learn to take the compliment." And I still forget it! Because saying "nah I suck" almost always comes from a place of insecurity, and whenever I'm feeling insecure, I've caught myself saying the equivalent. The more you place your self-worth on your abilities as a musician, the more insecure you'll feel at all times, and so it's important to move away from that.
Oh, man, i feel that sometimes, wanting to say "nah i suck" just cus you're feeling insecure. Luckily, for me, I started my musical journey at a moment in my life where i rediscovered the "playing" in life, like, actual playing like a kid, and so everytime i go up the stage, i go with that attitude in mind and i know i can't "fail". Of course later i'll think "ah shit i could've done XY better" but i'll take the compliment and be thankful that someone recognized my efforts, and that i did my best at that time.
This was me throughout undergrad - I simply assumed (and still do to some degree) that putting myself down equated to my desire to be ‘better than I was yesterday’. My main teacher at college tried to get me out of this mentality for 4 years..!
Truer words have never been spoken! In my years spent recording and producing I have run into very few musicians that actually "suck" - (and even fewer that are natural prodigies). The only true difference between them all is practice and dedication. I find when I have the sense that someone is more proficient than me, I tend to think "well Im not THAT good" - but it's always been a marker for me - a wake up call to practice more - expand my musical vocabulary - study a style I'm less familiar with. My first music teacher told me "practice makes perfect - and perfect doesn't exist". Music is an infinite loop of practice and learning, you'll never be finished, and to me that's what makes it all the more fun.
Paused at 3:32 to say that I once read something that stuck with me all these years. When a person gives a compliment, it’s not all about the receiver. The giver feels great knowing that the receiver acknowledges the appreciation of the giver. When a person rejects a compliment, it puts the giver in an awkward spot. To a giver, you’re hearing “you don’t know what you’re talking about” and I’ve learned to say “thank you, I really appreciate it” to any compliment ever since.
@@PatrickBartleyMusic Stephen Fry the British actor and 'gentleman' personality spent some time doing TV in the US. He would always react to the compliments he got in the way you describe. Its 'self effacement'. Its a typical British trait not to be seen 'blowing your own trumpet' as its considered vulgar, embarrasing and inpolite. But in the US its different. Folk are generally more gregarious and display emotion more readily. So after a while (as he tells it) his colleague pulls him aside and says to him, 'Stephen, your politeness is really causing offence, you need to learn how to take a compliment' And thats it. Even he had to learn, and exactly as you said, when someone hands you a compliment, say 'Thankyou, I appreciate that'. not, 'Nah you don't know what you're talking about'. BTW I've never been very good at self-effacement....
I swear this has been the most informative, beneficial, and eye-opening real talk you’ve done so far. As somebody who puts them self down as a way to give credit where credit is due, this video helped me realize that i can only sound as good as I think i can sound. Thank you so much Patrick! you’re helping the younger generation of jazz get started on the best possible path!
It means a lot to see you say this. I'm super glad this was able to be helpful to you in some way, thank you very much! I hope you can always remind yourself of your improvements every day, no matter how small they might seem!
I'll never forget my buddy saying after he gave me a compliment that I declined "Maybe I just shouldn't of said anything." Stopped me dead in my tracks and I've never declined a compliment since.
This is like when someone wants to give you $20 for helping them out with something and immediately going "oh no I can't accept that...". This is not healthy. People feel better when they feel like they can reciprocate. It's better to freely accept compliments and gifts and just do it in a humble way "Wow, thank you so much! I'm so glad I had the chance to help you with that. (Or "Thank you so much, I'm so glad you enjoyed the show! That makes my day, that's what I'm here for.") The more intense the compliment, the more you can just be like "wow, that really means a lot, I don't know what to say other than thank you!" And that often opens the door for more enjoyable conversations with that person. The last thing you want is to make them feel awkward for mustering up the courage to complement you- complimenting someone can be hard to do for the very reason that we don't know how they're going to take it- so when someone complements you, it's good to immediately give as much positivity in return as possible.
Man a few years ago I dropped the "nah man" for a honest "yo thanks dude!". On the other side of it, when i get a "nah man" I dont contradict them, instead I take it seriously and ask questions like "oh really, what do you think couldve gone better?" and find it has a way more encouraging effect. Most of the time they either know specifically what went wrong, or realize its just bullshit. This change i feel made me a lot more approachable for both good and bad critiques, and also when i give others a compliment they know i mean it. As always outstanding content man, giving good stuff to think about!
One semester I performed A Remark You Made on fretless bass for an applied music recital, and the whole time I thought "I know I cant read all of this, I'm just gonna try my best to get through it confidently even if its wrong". As I was leaving the building, this guy was trying to come up to me and talk to me about my performance and I just wanted to run to my car. My fiancé insisted I stop and listen to him. He was EXTREMELY impressed by my performance, said it sounded like a cool Pink Floyd song or something. I'm pretty sure he wasn't a musician, but I did tell him he should listen to more of Weather Report's stuff. He said "I will!" I'd never seen him since, but for a second I was more interested in him doing that than complimenting me any more. But if I could go back, I wish I stayed put and let him say what he wanted to say, because when you're in college, people don't often get that excited about your performances. And who knows if I'll ever be famous or make music that gets that response from someone ever again?
yep, i'm very guilty of this. A wise lady at church a couple years ago yelled, "just say thanks!" as I trashed my performance. . So since then, i just say thanks.
Whenever someone compliments me, I always just say “thank you, that means a lot!” …because those words of affirmation at the very least mean a lot to the GIVER of the compliment even if my performance fell below my own standards. Graciousness & gratitude are virtues borne of humility too :)
The "Jazz Humble" thing you just talked about is one of the reasons why I ended up falling out of love with the genre and stopped playing trumpet, seeing other people do it made me start doing it, plus I was never taught about positive reinforcement due to the way I was raised. It SEVERLY affected my mental health, and it got so bad that no one wanted to even associate with me because I was so insecure and so negative, which eventually led to me pushing everyone away. Now after almost a year of therapy I FINALLY am starting to address the root of the problem, and this video helped me realize even more about myself and where these issues came from. Thank you dude, I really appreciate you talking about this especially from the jazz world that I started out in.
Exactly! If you make the person giving you the compliment feel like they have no taste, what do you think is going to happen? If someone says they really enjoyed my sax playing, I am sooo grateful! It makes me feel that all the work has not gone in vain. I'm often in situations where I feel "I gotta up my game" and then I go home and work on things. Positive vibrations!!!
I had to learn how to take compliments and just say “thanks”. When you pull the “oh no I’m not that good” thing, it offends people because you’re low key telling them they don’t know what they’re talking about or they’re lying to blow smoke up you’re @$$. I’ve even had people say “Hey bro, you do know you’re really good”…and now I just say…”I know”…as matter of factly as possible because to me, being good isn’t the point…the point is, how did I serve the music.
Thanks for the words Pat. I've been only playing for 3 years and a little more than a half, and I started at 19. I'm now in jazz school, playing with folk who's been playing for 10 years or so. I've always felt like I should be put down since those guys are playing for way longer and have way more capabilities. It feels specially hard coming from an instrument such as the piano, where sometimes it seems everyone around me knows how to play it better. After my first concert ever, I acted like a complete idiot after getting those "ah man you did great" and kept denying it. I'll certainly keep everything you said in mind, as I'm trying more and more to show my playing.
@@lukki1377 Really appreciate it man, best of luck to you too. It used to feel like a curse that I only started this late, but now I see it as a blessing that I can be fully conscious and understand all about learning an instrument. Do your best man, you got this.
This was amazing thank you. I’m an Army musician, and I play jazz all the time with my colleagues. This “I suck” mentality is still pervasive even in our professional setting at all skill levels, so thank you for creating this video. I’ll be sharing it with all of them!
I've been trying to make a point of this with my friends lately. Whenever someone starts going down that self-deprecating road, I try to shut it down as quick as I can. "None of that. You're good, and I wouldn't be telling you that if I didn't truly believe it. You build me up, I build you up, and we don't take down the bricks the other laid." Nothing rude, but firm that we don't do this here. We're each other's support network.
I’m not going to front. I was in tears in the first few minutes of this video. People have been saying I was good for years and I always felt like I had to say no I’m not. But why? Thank you for your thoughts. A lot of people need to hear this. Just because I've stuff to work on it doesn’t make me bad.
the feeling of getting a compliment from a much older and very accomplished musician after you feel like you played like shit is so hard. i’ve learned that i have to just say thank you but the feeling inside kind of hurts. like i’m accepting a lie
"just because you have more to learn, doesnt mean you havent learned anything" thats great. i actually relate to this more with japanese than with music(should i be worried lol) but yea, ill feel down about "oh i cant hold a full conversation" or "oh my comprehension sucks" or "oh there are so many kanji/words i dont know", but i remember not knowing any kanji at all. i remember typing out my first sentences, and adding "and" or "because" to make a bigger sentence. i remember not knowing where this word ends and that one begins, and lots of other stuff, but i know all that now. we get too focused on what we cant do and it actively prevents us from getting there and its so silly. like, surely we can reach without beating ourselves up the whole time
This definitely ties into the whole notion of someone being the “BEST” saxophonist in town. This is incredibly subjective, as it really depends on the personal aesthetics of the listener. If a person really digs Stan Getz, then they may prefer one player over the next. Same if someone loves Kenny G. My goal is to always express myself sincerely within the style of music as I sincerely listen to the other musicians. Some people would like it, some will love it, and some will be hatin. I try to always say thank you whenever I receive a compliment, for some reason I’ve been receiving criticism recently, and I say thank you to that too! No one really knows us the way we knew ourselves so it’s best just to take peoples impressions with a grain of salt
This is such an incredibly hard habit to break once you start doing it. Even though I've gotten to the point that I don't say it out loud whenever someone gives me a compliment, I still think it. It's a fine line between understanding and positively accepting your limitations, failures, and mistakes and then actually working to fix it, versus negatively accepting your limitations, etc, and allowing those to keep you held down. I'm mostly still in the latter of those two and haven't learned how to stop.
Learned an important lesson at my church gig once - after what I felt to be a particularly sloppy set I got a compliment from one of the singers. After I gave this same “nah nah nah” reaction, this person was actually insulted not only because they felt it diminished their own opinions of taste and sensibility, but also because they went out of their way give the compliment in the first place. I’ve also learned the more difficult lesson that front loading a self-deprecating response to something you’ve done makes it more difficult for a leader/music director to give constructive criticism, because then they see your disappointment in yourself and don’t want to pile on. Thanks Patrick once again for speaking so eloquently about the difficult hard to put into words topics like this! Also congrats on the visa
Thats me, I stated alto in quarantine and I feel like im behind everyone else who has been playing way longer than me. i kept telling myself i was going to jam with others and busk but i felt like I was just shit and wanted to give up.
Thanks Patrick! I'm a 20 yr old Trumpet player from UK, can confirm this is definitely me. I get compliments a lot but I always dismiss them, saying to myself 'I'm not where I want to be at so it doesn't count', and it ends up making me feel down cause I then start to look for things I'm not happy with. But when I compliment someone else's playing, I really mean it cause I see something in their playing, so I guess its a little hypocritical. Maybe some of it is just a learned response from the sort of current jazz culture of trying to always seem humble. I guess it's all about taking the healthy side of humility and aspiring to play like the greats, whilst maintaining some level of self confidence. It's great to hear this sort of stuff from someone like you, who I admire a lot. Please keep these "real talks" coming, I'm sure I speak for everyone when I say we all get a lot from them. Have a great day :))
i've never had anyone actually call me out on me saying i'm bad, especially that part of the "prodigy" and having to stay humble. I did it so much that I stopped feeling confident in myself at all. I even started saying stuff like oh i only made it in all-region cause the competition wasn't as big this year I got lucky. I needed this video to get back my confidence in my playing
I'm one of those who used to argue that I suck when folks would give me a compliment. Then, one day my mentor told me to stop it. Just say thank you. That's what I do now so as to not insult the one giving me that compliment. Yes, I still want to tell them I'm bad but I know that the real issue is wanting to play better. We all want that. It's self defeating to be always self deprecating. Good subject. Thanks Patrick !!
In my experience this is much more common in the jazz world than when working in other musical contexts. I did attend a jazz school (bubble) albeit 35 years ago, and the world was a little different. That said, I work in a variety of musical styles and don't really hear the "I suck" and "humility" issues with funk, R&B, and Rock gigs. In the jazz world I agree that it's because we love our heroes so much and try to constantly get better and reach that high bar. Also agree that the attitude is counter-productive on several levels. In this context if one can realize that the joy is in doing the work and learning, and in supporting each other then it's a positive outcome.
Great talk.. I think as musicians we tend to compare ourselves and our musical progress to our musical heroes … it takes a long time to learn to base our view of progress on ourselves not others .. negativity can definitely become a self fulfilling prophecy
Thank you, Patrick for your inspirational insights! As a person who came very late to music making, I have often dealt with frustration and guilt concerning my very late start and my limited amount of practice time over the past 4 years. Music only became something I wanted to make starting at the age of 49 years , back in January of '20. Dana Colley's bari sax and how he played in the band Morphine were the epiphany for me. For the first time in my life, I had this moment: "I wanna make that sound!!" Trouble is, I'm in middle management at a community college, and my time and energies are taken up in keeping my program running (through bad decisions from above, Covid, and even more bad decisions from above than I ever imagined possible). Despite it all, I have had lessons once a week for 30 minutes for about a year's worth of time, I have plenty of books, watch all of the videos, and even signed up for an online course taught buy a very nice young man in England. I fault myself for only now focusing on getting all the major scales really under my fingers, and I'm also learning the 12 most used pentatonic blues scales. I've transcribed a lot from listening to the players I love (Colley, Temperley, Prez, Mulligan, and Payne), and I am working on dexterity and being able to play faster (glissandos). Age-related pain (and recovery times) slows this process... I used to get so mad every time I messed up a note, but now, perhaps because I'm older and less insecure, I try to approach playing and learning the way a child would. But I have the benefit of metacognition, so I can both experiment AND note what works on a more conscious level. Anyways, if someone compliments me, I always thank them humbly and remark that I am trying and this is a work in progress. It's a real shame that learning to make music is not more valued in US society and education. Took me 49 years to "get it." A whole new universe opened up to me, and it has given me a new purpose, with exciting things to learn and goals to achieve. This universe of music will be new to me for the rest of my life! How many other things in life can we say that about? Thanks again for doing what you do! 🙂 Arigato gozai-masu!
I’m 24 and been playing 6 strings since I was 8/9. There was a period between ages 15-22 where I didn’t have a guitar and was homeless so it really stunted my growth and learning. All that time I never mentioned my ability to play guitar at all and If I did I would say “I play a little bit of guitar.” I’m not a fast player by any means, but at this point I still get plenty of “wows” from the music/rhythms I create when jamming. I always thought I would be rhythm/chords only player, but I’ve got a lot of people telling me now “you’d be a great lead too”. I’ve surpassed the point of “where I want to be” and had no clue because of years of not having an instrument, not jamming with anyone, and doubting/belittling my ability. I remember one time I was playing with the first person I ever jammed with, we were recording some demos and he told me to do a solo. I did the solo and we listened back to it, and in the middle of it he goes “wow man you sound good” meanwhile I’m thinking we were listening to HIS solo and saying in my head “that’s definitely not me” I don’t remember how I responded, but I’m really hoping I didn’t shut the compliment down. I think I said something along the lines of “is that really me? you really think so?” It meant a lot to me because I looked up to him more than any other musician in this world, probably still do. At the time we were 14/15 and he already knew how to play 5 different instruments and it was my first very recorded solo. I’d like to add that phantom practice is real thing. During the 7 years I didn’t have a guitar to play, I would practice in my head and come up with licks and melodies, and solo to songs in my head, when I finally got a guitar again at 22, my ability had skyrocketed without practicing in 7 years. I could do licks I never thought I’d do, solo without hitting the wrong notes, effortlessly fret complicated chords, and I was 2x faster at playing my scales cleanly.
And I'm fed up with my insecurities since I know I've got more to give. Last time at the jamsession, I decided to straighten up and focus only on Giving and Listening. Insecurity leads to me holding back and living in my head on stage. I want to let it all out and I've seen time and time again that people enjoy what I have to give. And how humble a thing is that, to want to share everything I have as best I can? How grateful I am to be in the position to do that. And now noticing realtime how I'm Not recognising that I've worked really hard to get to that place, because I need to be there.
Super simple: Smile and say "thank you." There's absolutely no reason you need to affirm or deny other people's opinions of you, just accept them and move on.
"Comparison is the thief of joy." I've always tried to play something that I'd want to listen to...if I listen to myself and think "I don't like that" then I go and make it better and the end result is something that I like. If you enjoy what you're doing that's really the best thing - people should enjoy making music, it's such a beautiful gift. Thanks Pat!
Another 'spot on' video my friend, because it's very differcult to sell yourself on the business side of music with a negative outlook on yourself! Be safe my friend, Jazz On & God Bless!!!
I used to do something similar (answering acompliment poorly), and at 50 it's a hard habit to break. Breaking it is something I've been really proud of myself for (only managed it recently). When I decided to go pro, the head of the music union here asked me "are you good?" I'm not sure I answered it very well. I said "some other professional sax players say I am, but..." This was before I had gained more confidence and broke the habit.
This was REAL talk. I've been way too guilty of this for way too long, pre-college, during, and just after. I also have autism, so the "other people's perspective" thing doesn't usually come easily or make sense to me, so thanks for explaining it! Thanks Patrick! PS, the bits where you said "this'll go into a therapy session" were the most powerful. Would love more of that! Also, the "just because you've got more to learn doesn't mean you haven't learned anything" is gold.
"Thanks for the compliment, but I'll try and work more to sound even better" This is a "real talk" indeed, I'll watch this over and over till it sinks in properly. Thanks Pat You're indeed a mentor 🙌🏿🙌🏿🔥
Patrick, over the last few months you have become one of my musical heroes. I think your playing and your philosophy around music have helped respark my passion for music, and I am so thankful to you for that. In high school, I was one of these "prodigy kids" who stood out from the other kids. But after coming to college (not music school) I realized how poor my music education and ability actually was compared to my new peers, and I've struggled with feeling confident enough to share my music. I feel like I have a very good ear and knowledge of music theory, and I play a few different instruments fairly well, but I struggle to put my MUSIC, my heart and soul, out there for others to see. I always feel like I need to practice more, or that I'm not good enough. This video connected with me in a deep way, and I think that taking your advice will help me with my musical confidence.
I had a recent encounter like this where a friend who I think is a lot better than me and admire gave me a compliment and I said “thank you that makes me feel a lot better actually” which was 100% true I thought I really clammed some stuff on stage and when they said that it got me out of my own head and realized not everyone sees me the way I see me. I basically was trying to say I accepted the compliment and also acknowledged that I don’t feel that great about my playing and I am trying to form a more positive self-image. I felt that was an honest way to respond, do you (including all y’all in the comments) think that was an appropriate thing to say? Also, I think it’s a lot worse in the internet age because we see all these virtuosos all the time on social media. It’s been helping me to remember that social media is a concentration of the greatest players around the world, and it’s normal to not be able to play at that level with the amount of experience I have. I’ve been playing guitar with no live or band experience for 6 years but I’ve only been actually studying jazz with a jazz teacher for 1 and have just barely started to play with bands, meaning I can play well with jam band stuff but feel I am way less versed in jazz, like I am having a lot of trouble outlining the changes of a jazz blues right now in a bebop style. I know so much more theory and analysis than I can actually perform confidently right now, and that’s why I feel so frustrated and have had a bad self image
I've learned to simply say "thank you so much-I'm still working on it" which to me acknowledges the compliment and also the fact that I'm not satisfied yet - I'm still on the journey as I will always be.
I guess my point is, why does the person who gave you the compliment NEED to know you're "still working on it"? You can just say thank you and be grateful for where you are, even if you know that there's always something to work on. You made it this far. You don't need to convince yourself or anyone else that you're "humble".
@@PatrickBartleyMusic I'm not trying to convince myself or anyone else-rather just acknowledging that it's a never-ending journey. I don't know if they need to hear it or not. Some folks don't know. I talk to many people who don't know anything about jazz and aren't familiar with what it takes to really make music in this way. This is simply how I feel comfortable responding, wether they need to hear it or not. I think it's an inspiring message, in any art form.
Struggling from life long confidence issues as well as perfectionism has really made it difficult for me to accept compliments, up till the point where I realise I come off as ungrateful - lost track of all the chase-up texts to people to say an earnest thank you after the show. That said, when people tell me to ‘keep going’, that always activates my gratitude, because they recognise that I’m a work in progress (which doesn’t feed into the imposter syndrome of usual compliments; it feels like it’s hard to discern between genuine praise and post-gig politeness) but still believe in the good I can do later.
I had an album recording with some peeps and the whole time i felt like crap. Everything i played and and thought of just wasnt there all of a sudden. Pretty sure i annoyed everyone and brought the mood down. Listened to the recordings recently and damn. If i would've had a good mindset it would be really sick. There was some cool stuff, but my own self doubt at the time actually ruined it for me xD So yeah. From now on im taking all the compliments and not doubting my abilities anymore
Jazz has been a major part of my life but the pursuit that I actually learned this lesson in was gaming! Overwatch specifically, I was playing in tournaments and had major confidence issues in my ability to play well. I became somewhat notorious in my group for talking down to myself if I ever made a mistake and it made me a real pain to be around in hindsight. Eventually one day one of the guys in our server had to take me aside and talk. I remember everything he said word for word, he told me: "I get why you feel this way, really. But these guys have watched you grow from just learning to being one of the better players around here. And a lot of them skill-wise are still where they were when you started. You've been rolling us in these games, if you're calling yourself trash, what does that make us?" That was really eye-opening for me, and it helped me realize just how damaging that kind of negative self-talk can actually be for OTHER people's self confidence (for music this would be a matter of musicians talking to other musicians). If they watch someone they see as really good or better than them talk down to themselves about their ability, how do you think it makes those people feel about themselves and their own abilities? Being willing to accept yourself as being good at something if you're good at it can actually be really healthy for the self-confidence of those around you doing the same thing as you, and that's something that I think we often forget about when we think about staying "humble".
I started playing just a year ago; I used to play the violin in elementary and was above average but the passion wasn’t there. I just turned 20 and I’m studying percussion and piano now; but Im always going back and forth with being good and not being good enough bc I compare myself to much, but this video helped; love the community ❤
Writing this to remind myself of the things that resonated with me the most “Just because you have more to learn, doesn’t mean you haven’t learned anything”
This is great! I had an old director in high school who always told us that no matter how we felt we played, if we receive a compliment we should always be appreciative of the fact that the person giving the compliment was still moved enough to say something to us. If we reply with "It wasn't that good" or "Nah man I suck" it isn't respectful of the person giving the compliment, because we're saying they shouldn't feel that way.
Part of this is just that next to fantasy, reality is just going to be a disappointment. And it can be hard to find inspiration without getting stuck in fantasy. You gotta decide if you want to preserve the fantasy or actually do something. One way you get to imagine yourself better than you are, but the other way might show you something better than you could imagine.
Dude, I sucked at sax for so long in college, that when I finally felt the scale tip in the other direction, I was very eager to say, "hell yah, I worked hard to get this good".
this is such great advice. i dont know what it feels like to be prodigious nor am i a virtuoso…but im up the mountain-maybe halfway on my musical journey. but, thanks to working in an unrelated field for 33 years, day-dreaming of playing my guitar in every crappy meeting, im now too old to become a “great” jazz musician. thats just a fact. but, i still have enuff years left to be the best me i can be whether i reach the top of the mountain or not. Like u said-you just gotta like climbing aka music. and i f$&@ing love it. Two people who I respect enormously-one being my teacher, the great guitarist and barry Harris expert: chris parks, the other one of my fellow students-an advanced piano player- recently told me to stop prefacing things I’ve been posting with all the type of negative self incrimination that you’re describing and just post the stuff and let it stand up instead tearing it down. and they’re right. 👊hell, i may have to change the whole tile and tenor of my humble little channel now that im thinking on this…🤔
I’ve actually been working on my confidence and self Image playing wise and I appreciate stuff like this man. NO ONE talks about this!! This is extremely important, and Im so glad to hear you talk about it. Thank you for making this video
Rocky- It’s a battle against the self, man. Always ask yourself questions of awareness like, “was I able to do, or did I do this yesterday? Did you make an attempt to better yourself today? Did you make a legitimate effort? From where you began to now, who are you and how are you?”
Damn, I've never been so glad to land on the right video at the right time. Wanting to Learn to play jazz has me so lost in not even acknowledging I can probably play a simple song just fine. Or maybe a scale slow but sure. Then I end up worrying about how to play triads because of the pressure to get good. In that I forget everything else I know and feel bad about myself. It's also almost like the rush to get good makes you feel you're not where you want to be ,also making yourself say your not good enough, to the point that practicing is hard because it almost feels you've done it all as much as you know you haven't.
Man this video was a deep cut. I started gigging with my dad's band at 13, played through high school and college and learned from many elders. Fast forward to now in my 30s I don't practice as much as I should or gig as much as I want to and I know my technique is not my best right now but I'm going to stop focusing on thinking that I suck and focus on the knowledge I still have and positive affirmations of the bread and butter tunes I can still bust out.
Your comment about being the kid that was slightly better through school and having to keep yourself down hits hard. I was always the kid that practiced a lot so I kept pushing further and further ahead of my peers, but I felt like I couldn't come out and say I was good without being like "look at me I work hard and can play all this stuff." I still sometimes feel like I need to keep my head down but I'm trying to unlearn it because I'm not a top level player at all, but I'm soooo much better than I pretend to be in conversations with musicians but I always feel like admitting it is a bad thing even though it's not.
Being a beginner accordionist starting a year ago it's important to reframe things so instead of saying I'm bad I say I'm a beginner still learning. As a way to not shut myself down but to acknowledge my state and accomplishment in a year.
Personally, I'd say that the best way I confront this issue is by saying " Yeah! I'm always learning " This phrase goes both ways. When I think / know that my performance could've been better and when I receive a compliment, I'll say the same thing but with a " thank you! " added. It allows me to not be arrogant but also to confront my fellow musicians who, one way or another you feel kinda criticized by them, but mainly because you know they know AND you know, that they know you know. And that is the full thruth from me, because i've gotten to the point that assuming a constant learning path allows me to understand the sharps and flats of life and enjoy more doing the thing that I love, and that is playing trumpet and making music.
Ever since i got my tenor sax about 5 months ago, I've always wanted to be better and better, and I think that it makes it really hard for me to feel like im getting any better at all. I'm obsessed with dexter gordon, and the more i listen to him the more i realise how far away i am from reaching that peak. its discouraging when ive been playing sax for 5 years(alto) and im still not as good as i should be. always been a tough thing for me to fix 😮💨
Patrick, you are a leader in the community, and I truly appreciate your words here. Coming from an american christian background where a premium was placed on humility, I've struggled with this for years (and still do). I appreciate you kindly calling us those of us out who need to hear it. And your call to action for a more supportive community of cats and one that acknowledges individual progress in favor of the comparison to the best cat in town is one that I fully subscribe to (yes, even though you didn't ask for it).
I do this all the time. But because in my head sometimes feels like people gives compliments just to be politically correct. I also agree with your point. Self deprecation is bad for oneself. This video is very helpful
I completely agree with this. I also feel like saying nah I'm not that good might give the impression to the person giving the compliment that you think they're naive for thinking you're good. Thank you for vocalizing this point!
I once asked my Arabic teacher how to say, "My Arabic is not very good." She taught me the phrase "3arabiiyyati 3a 2edde." I asked for the literal translation and she said, "My Arabic is just my size." It changed the way I looked at learning and being a learner in general.
Me thinking you were trying to address people calling themselves bad in general (calling out my entire band) You actually explaining that it's a compliment thing
My grandfather told me about this same topic 9 years ago. I could play better than the average player but still wanted to sound humble by declining a compliment after a performance. I’d even start talking about points in the music where I made some mistakes. My grandfather told me “when someone comes up to you and compliments your playing, just humbly say thank you and that you appreciate the compliment and move on! They don’t need the excuses!” That stuck with me! Glad you spoke on this topic.
Growing up As an Asian kid… this video truly touched me. Most of the people I know were growing up by getting lots of punishment (somehow this was a big part of asian parenting). And I felt I lot released after watching this video, thank you PJ! I came a long way, and I truly believe that I will be going where I wanna be too!
I think the biggest problem with having confidence as a musician is twofold. The amount of jazz musicians being arrogant, know-it-alls about whatever they think. I mean if you want an honest answer, I saw a post you made where you were pointing out this Miles Davis Bebop line and someone commented "Sounds like a typical bebop line." You commented with something along the lines of: you are telling jokes with a laughing face. Now on one hand, I totally see where your response came from lol, but I actually had the same response/feeling as the dude who commented that initially. To me, it sounded pretty inspired by Charlie Parker. I am not a jazz expert, and I am not amazing or anything, pretty average(the irony). But like I have been transcribing Donna Lee for the past two months or so (I have like 8 bars left I have been grinding), and to me, since I've had that in my ear, it just reminded me of Donna Lee, especially the chromatic part later in the head (I bet you are singing that in your head right now). And in my head, i genuinely couldn't think of anything in that moment that felt different to me than what Parker was doing. It didn't feel like something new at that moment. Now, the thing is, is after listening to Miles Davis playing that line over and over, I felt completely different. I agreed with you completely and saw where you were coming from. I realized the phrasing felt really speical, but I didn't really hear that the very first listen. The point of me saying this, is not that you are an arrogant asshole for saying what you said. I didn't think you did anything wrong. But I think for that guy, he probably felt stupid. Hell, I felt a little stupid too at first because I felt the same way as him. Again, you are an expert at jazz, and I think any casual jazz musician shouldn't feel bad at all for getting corrected by you. But the fact of the matter, is that being told your opinion is wrong, even just straight up laughable, hurts. I am sure any jazz musician has experienced this before. You are at one of your first jam sessions, you seem to be hanging in there, playing with great musicans, then all of a sudden you make a stupid mistake. Like you miss a beat, or you play a really sour note for too long, or you just fall on your face in some way. Whatever it is, right after you make that mistake, or even worse, as you are making the mistake, every musician in the band gives you a bad look. Then after the song or after the session, they tell you what you did. Has happened to me a handful of times, thankfully I get bad looks a lot less often, but these are real confidence killers. If you play with someone better than you, which is what we should all be doing in my opinion, you will not always play according to that person's standards. This is only natural. This happened to pretty much all the greats when they were playing with each other. Miles Davis used to scold Coltrane for playing too many notes. Herbie Hancock also received similar treatment from Miles (for different reasons). Pat Metheney used to get scolded by Gary Burton. I mean I'm sure we could think of plenty of examples. This is literally coated in the musician framework of jazz. The fact of the matter is that this is a feature of jazz music, not a bug. It makes us better to be scolded at. I am very grateful for every bad look I've gotten playing jazz because now I rarely, if at all, make those mistakes anymore. Getting bad looks makes you a good musician, but they kill our confidence, so it is very difficult to balance these things. Back to your original comment I brought up, I wouldn't have taken the time to listen to that lick over and over if you hadn't said that to that guy. I literally would've accepted that Miles wasn't doing anything new, yet because of your comment, I discovered something about the phrasing I would have otherwise ignored. So ultimately I am completely grateful for that comment, and again I mentioned it to show my experience and give you and everyone some insight not to bring you down in any way. I think when it comes down to it, the best players need to be more kind to less experienced players in my opinion. Of the jazz musicians I know, they are sometimes (perhaps often lol) toxic in how they teach. I don't think they intend to be either, for it's also how they were taught. It's this power thing where you spend years getting bad looks then all of a sudden you get to be the one to give the bad look. I think this power dynamic is easily exploitable, and many musicians enjoy doing this (perhaps subconsciously not even intentionally). I think also this is very dominant among jazz musicians who went to university, which I think is an added layer to all of this. The other thing here that is important IMO is that the most confident musicians are the ones who are always giving the bad looks lol. It's like if I don't play something your way, it is a problem. I think this is true outside of jazz too for sure. I played with a producer one time, and he acted like he was an expert at everything in his studio, like he knew everything there was about music. Granted, he is super talented, but he's a 22 year old kid who just has so much confidence that he's a narcissist. I don't think he thought I knew anything to teach him, and that was defintely frustrating. I will say after the fact a couple months later he said he looked up to me, which meant a lot to me, but in the moment of playing with him, I felt very belittled. Anyway, I think you are a great player man, and I didn't say all this to act like you are some arrogant guy because I don't think you are at all. My saxophonist friend who I think is unreal and amazing , best saxophone player I have ever played with, said this about you "that dude is a jazz god. His playing is otherworldly." I have the same opinion. Your playing on traditional standards, but also your Japanense music band, is just so phenomenal and inspiring. Thank you for your music but also thank you for making a video like this. It brings into conversation the essence of jazz culture, and I think this is an important conversation. I think it is important to be confident, but we should all remember that ANY musician can teach us something about music. I think if we are going to be humble and confident, it relies upon us to always look within ourselves and question ourselves, to always be willing to learn, but also be confident in what we know. Perhaps that is a good answer I don't know I am an idiot :). Thank you for this video.
Crucial video! "Thank you" really is the best way to reply whether someone is telling you rock, or you suck. Putting yourself down just lays all your insecurities out there for everyone else to see. Being thankful and grateful might not always get one further in life, but it always gives one the chance to leave a positive impression. I always remind myself when playing (especially when playing ticketed/cover charge) events: these people paid money because one way or another, they got the idea that they wanted to spend their night hearing the music I'm a part of. If you turn around and tell them after they bought the tickets, drinks, t shirt, etc that you think you suck, you pretty much just dissed their whole night, and you're essentially telling them they have bad judgement for coming to see you/your colleagues/bandleader! The negativity becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy in that moment.
Unfortunately all too many people can't find a middle ground. They either say: "I suck big time" or they have inflated egos and think they are great in spite of having glaring deficiencies musically. Only a few people are able to positively accept themselves as they are while at the same time knowing about their weaknesses and working to get better.
I don’t think I’ve had this problem because, if anything, I tend to be arrogant about my own skill, but it has definitely irked me when people say that because it comes off as being coy and trying to get more compliments. I realize that’s not actually what’s usually going on, but that’s the vibe it gives off, which can be annoying.
I've been guilty of so much of this to the point where it definitely has had negative effects, but I'm finally reaching a healthier attitude with the whole thing. Mindset is such a big deal, and it isn't built in a day either.
Very important! I fortunately was taught this lesson early on by my college roommate Andrew. I said the equivalent of "nah man, I suck," and he very firmly said, "don't ever say that, because when you say that, I look dumb. This is me trying to connect with you after enjoying what you did. Learn to take the compliment."
And I still forget it! Because saying "nah I suck" almost always comes from a place of insecurity, and whenever I'm feeling insecure, I've caught myself saying the equivalent.
The more you place your self-worth on your abilities as a musician, the more insecure you'll feel at all times, and so it's important to move away from that.
Oh, man, i feel that sometimes, wanting to say "nah i suck" just cus you're feeling insecure. Luckily, for me, I started my musical journey at a moment in my life where i rediscovered the "playing" in life, like, actual playing like a kid, and so everytime i go up the stage, i go with that attitude in mind and i know i can't "fail". Of course later i'll think "ah shit i could've done XY better" but i'll take the compliment and be thankful that someone recognized my efforts, and that i did my best at that time.
Thanks for watching and giving your input, Adam!
This was me throughout undergrad - I simply assumed (and still do to some degree) that putting myself down equated to my desire to be ‘better than I was yesterday’. My main teacher at college tried to get me out of this mentality for 4 years..!
@@sat.chid.ananda hell yeah dude! looking at music as "just playing around" helps me fly all over the fretboard!
Truer words have never been spoken!
In my years spent recording and producing I have run into very few musicians that actually "suck" - (and even fewer that are natural prodigies). The only true difference between them all is practice and dedication.
I find when I have the sense that someone is more proficient than me, I tend to think "well Im not THAT good" - but it's always been a marker for me - a wake up call to practice more - expand my musical vocabulary - study a style I'm less familiar with. My first music teacher told me "practice makes perfect - and perfect doesn't exist". Music is an infinite loop of practice and learning, you'll never be finished, and to me that's what makes it all the more fun.
“Just cuz you have more to learn doesn’t mean you haven’t learned anything” someone put that on a poster right now
When someone compliments you, say thank you!!
Paused at 3:32 to say that I once read something that stuck with me all these years. When a person gives a compliment, it’s not all about the receiver. The giver feels great knowing that the receiver acknowledges the appreciation of the giver. When a person rejects a compliment, it puts the giver in an awkward spot. To a giver, you’re hearing “you don’t know what you’re talking about” and I’ve learned to say “thank you, I really appreciate it” to any compliment ever since.
This is exactly what I'm saying, thank you!
LOLOL just got to where you say this at 16:26. Thank YOU for sharing your wisdom :)
@@PatrickBartleyMusic Stephen Fry the British actor and 'gentleman' personality spent some time doing TV in the US. He would always react to the compliments he got in the way you describe. Its 'self effacement'. Its a typical British trait not to be seen 'blowing your own trumpet' as its considered vulgar, embarrasing and inpolite. But in the US its different. Folk are generally more gregarious and display emotion more readily.
So after a while (as he tells it) his colleague pulls him aside and says to him, 'Stephen, your politeness is really causing offence, you need to learn how to take a compliment'
And thats it. Even he had to learn, and exactly as you said, when someone hands you a compliment, say 'Thankyou, I appreciate that'.
not, 'Nah you don't know what you're talking about'.
BTW I've never been very good at self-effacement....
@@lyntedrockley7295 Yes! (Though, as a Brit, I’m conflicted 😅 )
I swear this has been the most informative, beneficial, and eye-opening real talk you’ve done so far. As somebody who puts them self down as a way to give credit where credit is due, this video helped me realize that i can only sound as good as I think i can sound. Thank you so much Patrick! you’re helping the younger generation of jazz get started on the best possible path!
It means a lot to see you say this. I'm super glad this was able to be helpful to you in some way, thank you very much! I hope you can always remind yourself of your improvements every day, no matter how small they might seem!
I'll never forget my buddy saying after he gave me a compliment that I declined "Maybe I just shouldn't of said anything." Stopped me dead in my tracks and I've never declined a compliment since.
You’re a good psychologist…! 👍💐
This is like when someone wants to give you $20 for helping them out with something and immediately going "oh no I can't accept that...". This is not healthy. People feel better when they feel like they can reciprocate. It's better to freely accept compliments and gifts and just do it in a humble way "Wow, thank you so much! I'm so glad I had the chance to help you with that. (Or "Thank you so much, I'm so glad you enjoyed the show! That makes my day, that's what I'm here for.") The more intense the compliment, the more you can just be like "wow, that really means a lot, I don't know what to say other than thank you!" And that often opens the door for more enjoyable conversations with that person. The last thing you want is to make them feel awkward for mustering up the courage to complement you- complimenting someone can be hard to do for the very reason that we don't know how they're going to take it- so when someone complements you, it's good to immediately give as much positivity in return as possible.
Man a few years ago I dropped the "nah man" for a honest "yo thanks dude!". On the other side of it, when i get a "nah man" I dont contradict them, instead I take it seriously and ask questions like "oh really, what do you think couldve gone better?" and find it has a way more encouraging effect. Most of the time they either know specifically what went wrong, or realize its just bullshit.
This change i feel made me a lot more approachable for both good and bad critiques, and also when i give others a compliment they know i mean it.
As always outstanding content man, giving good stuff to think about!
One semester I performed A Remark You Made on fretless bass for an applied music recital, and the whole time I thought "I know I cant read all of this, I'm just gonna try my best to get through it confidently even if its wrong". As I was leaving the building, this guy was trying to come up to me and talk to me about my performance and I just wanted to run to my car. My fiancé insisted I stop and listen to him. He was EXTREMELY impressed by my performance, said it sounded like a cool Pink Floyd song or something. I'm pretty sure he wasn't a musician, but I did tell him he should listen to more of Weather Report's stuff. He said "I will!" I'd never seen him since, but for a second I was more interested in him doing that than complimenting me any more. But if I could go back, I wish I stayed put and let him say what he wanted to say, because when you're in college, people don't often get that excited about your performances. And who knows if I'll ever be famous or make music that gets that response from someone ever again?
Yo pat. This spread round my high school jazz scene like wildfire. We all seen it and we all appreciate this message. Thank you.
“If I tell you I'm good, probably you will say I'm boasting. But if I tell you I'm not good, you'll know I'm lying.”
― Bruce Lee
yep, i'm very guilty of this. A wise lady at church a couple years ago yelled, "just say thanks!" as I trashed my performance. . So since then, i just say thanks.
Whenever someone compliments me, I always just say “thank you, that means a lot!” …because those words of affirmation at the very least mean a lot to the GIVER of the compliment even if my performance fell below my own standards. Graciousness & gratitude are virtues borne of humility too :)
The "Jazz Humble" thing you just talked about is one of the reasons why I ended up falling out of love with the genre and stopped playing trumpet, seeing other people do it made me start doing it, plus I was never taught about positive reinforcement due to the way I was raised. It SEVERLY affected my mental health, and it got so bad that no one wanted to even associate with me because I was so insecure and so negative, which eventually led to me pushing everyone away. Now after almost a year of therapy I FINALLY am starting to address the root of the problem, and this video helped me realize even more about myself and where these issues came from. Thank you dude, I really appreciate you talking about this especially from the jazz world that I started out in.
Exactly! If you make the person giving you the compliment feel like they have no taste, what do you think is going to happen? If someone says they really enjoyed my sax playing, I am sooo grateful! It makes me feel that all the work has not gone in vain. I'm often in situations where I feel "I gotta up my game" and then I go home and work on things. Positive vibrations!!!
I had to learn how to take compliments and just say “thanks”. When you pull the “oh no I’m not that good” thing, it offends people because you’re low key telling them they don’t know what they’re talking about or they’re lying to blow smoke up you’re @$$. I’ve even had people say “Hey bro, you do know you’re really good”…and now I just say…”I know”…as matter of factly as possible because to me, being good isn’t the point…the point is, how did I serve the music.
Thanks for the words Pat. I've been only playing for 3 years and a little more than a half, and I started at 19. I'm now in jazz school, playing with folk who's been playing for 10 years or so. I've always felt like I should be put down since those guys are playing for way longer and have way more capabilities. It feels specially hard coming from an instrument such as the piano, where sometimes it seems everyone around me knows how to play it better. After my first concert ever, I acted like a complete idiot after getting those "ah man you did great" and kept denying it. I'll certainly keep everything you said in mind, as I'm trying more and more to show my playing.
In the same boat as you but I’m on saxophone but trust me man, you got this, the work you put in will show I promise you
@@lukki1377 Really appreciate it man, best of luck to you too. It used to feel like a curse that I only started this late, but now I see it as a blessing that I can be fully conscious and understand all about learning an instrument. Do your best man, you got this.
Im the same, and also think is a bless to start late, you learn the real deal and are fully conscious as you said
Ayo I'm the exact same. I started saxophone at 17.
This was amazing thank you. I’m an Army musician, and I play jazz all the time with my colleagues. This “I suck” mentality is still pervasive even in our professional setting at all skill levels, so thank you for creating this video. I’ll be sharing it with all of them!
I've been trying to make a point of this with my friends lately. Whenever someone starts going down that self-deprecating road, I try to shut it down as quick as I can. "None of that. You're good, and I wouldn't be telling you that if I didn't truly believe it. You build me up, I build you up, and we don't take down the bricks the other laid." Nothing rude, but firm that we don't do this here. We're each other's support network.
I’m not going to front. I was in tears in the first few minutes of this video. People have been saying I was good for years and I always felt like I had to say no I’m not. But why? Thank you for your thoughts. A lot of people need to hear this. Just because I've stuff to work on it doesn’t make me bad.
My favorite is “nah I’m tryna be like you” 😂
the feeling of getting a compliment from a much older and very accomplished musician after you feel like you played like shit is so hard. i’ve learned that i have to just say thank you but the feeling inside kind of hurts. like i’m accepting a lie
"just because you have more to learn, doesnt mean you havent learned anything"
thats great. i actually relate to this more with japanese than with music(should i be worried lol) but yea, ill feel down about "oh i cant hold a full conversation" or "oh my comprehension sucks" or "oh there are so many kanji/words i dont know", but i remember not knowing any kanji at all. i remember typing out my first sentences, and adding "and" or "because" to make a bigger sentence. i remember not knowing where this word ends and that one begins, and lots of other stuff, but i know all that now. we get too focused on what we cant do and it actively prevents us from getting there and its so silly. like, surely we can reach without beating ourselves up the whole time
This definitely ties into the whole notion of someone being the “BEST” saxophonist in town. This is incredibly subjective, as it really depends on the personal aesthetics of the listener. If a person really digs Stan Getz, then they may prefer one player over the next. Same if someone loves Kenny G.
My goal is to always express myself sincerely within the style of music as I sincerely listen to the other musicians. Some people would like it, some will love it, and some will be hatin.
I try to always say thank you whenever I receive a compliment, for some reason I’ve been receiving criticism recently, and I say thank you to that too! No one really knows us the way we knew ourselves so it’s best just to take peoples impressions with a grain of salt
Patrick leading our way out of the valley of despair ❤
This is such an incredibly hard habit to break once you start doing it. Even though I've gotten to the point that I don't say it out loud whenever someone gives me a compliment, I still think it. It's a fine line between understanding and positively accepting your limitations, failures, and mistakes and then actually working to fix it, versus negatively accepting your limitations, etc, and allowing those to keep you held down. I'm mostly still in the latter of those two and haven't learned how to stop.
Learned an important lesson at my church gig once - after what I felt to be a particularly sloppy set I got a compliment from one of the singers. After I gave this same “nah nah nah” reaction, this person was actually insulted not only because they felt it diminished their own opinions of taste and sensibility, but also because they went out of their way give the compliment in the first place.
I’ve also learned the more difficult lesson that front loading a self-deprecating response to something you’ve done makes it more difficult for a leader/music director to give constructive criticism, because then they see your disappointment in yourself and don’t want to pile on.
Thanks Patrick once again for speaking so eloquently about the difficult hard to put into words topics like this! Also congrats on the visa
Thats me, I stated alto in quarantine and I feel like im behind everyone else who has been playing way longer than me. i kept telling myself i was going to jam with others and busk but i felt like I was just shit and wanted to give up.
Thanks Patrick! I'm a 20 yr old Trumpet player from UK, can confirm this is definitely me. I get compliments a lot but I always dismiss them, saying to myself 'I'm not where I want to be at so it doesn't count', and it ends up making me feel down cause I then start to look for things I'm not happy with. But when I compliment someone else's playing, I really mean it cause I see something in their playing, so I guess its a little hypocritical. Maybe some of it is just a learned response from the sort of current jazz culture of trying to always seem humble.
I guess it's all about taking the healthy side of humility and aspiring to play like the greats, whilst maintaining some level of self confidence. It's great to hear this sort of stuff from someone like you, who I admire a lot. Please keep these "real talks" coming, I'm sure I speak for everyone when I say we all get a lot from them. Have a great day :))
i've never had anyone actually call me out on me saying i'm bad, especially that part of the "prodigy" and having to stay humble. I did it so much that I stopped feeling confident in myself at all. I even started saying stuff like oh i only made it in all-region cause the competition wasn't as big this year I got lucky. I needed this video to get back my confidence in my playing
I'm one of those who used to argue that I suck when folks would give me a compliment. Then, one day my mentor told me to stop it. Just say thank you. That's what I do now so as to not insult the one giving me that compliment. Yes, I still want to tell them I'm bad but I know that the real issue is wanting to play better. We all want that. It's self defeating to be always self deprecating. Good subject. Thanks Patrick !!
In my experience this is much more common in the jazz world than when working in other musical contexts. I did attend a jazz school (bubble) albeit 35 years ago, and the world was a little different. That said, I work in a variety of musical styles and don't really hear the "I suck" and "humility" issues with funk, R&B, and Rock gigs. In the jazz world I agree that it's because we love our heroes so much and try to constantly get better and reach that high bar. Also agree that the attitude is counter-productive on several levels. In this context if one can realize that the joy is in doing the work and learning, and in supporting each other then it's a positive outcome.
Great talk.. I think as musicians we tend to compare ourselves and our musical progress to our musical heroes … it takes a long time to learn to base our view of progress on ourselves not others .. negativity can definitely become a self fulfilling prophecy
Thank you, Patrick for your inspirational insights!
As a person who came very late to music making, I have often dealt with frustration and guilt concerning my very late start and my limited amount of practice time over the past 4 years. Music only became something I wanted to make starting at the age of 49 years , back in January of '20. Dana Colley's bari sax and how he played in the band Morphine were the epiphany for me. For the first time in my life, I had this moment: "I wanna make that sound!!"
Trouble is, I'm in middle management at a community college, and my time and energies are taken up in keeping my program running (through bad decisions from above, Covid, and even more bad decisions from above than I ever imagined possible). Despite it all, I have had lessons once a week for 30 minutes for about a year's worth of time, I have plenty of books, watch all of the videos, and even signed up for an online course taught buy a very nice young man in England.
I fault myself for only now focusing on getting all the major scales really under my fingers, and I'm also learning the 12 most used pentatonic blues scales. I've transcribed a lot from listening to the players I love (Colley, Temperley, Prez, Mulligan, and Payne), and I am working on dexterity and being able to play faster (glissandos). Age-related pain (and recovery times) slows this process... I used to get so mad every time I messed up a note, but now, perhaps because I'm older and less insecure, I try to approach playing and learning the way a child would. But I have the benefit of metacognition, so I can both experiment AND note what works on a more conscious level.
Anyways, if someone compliments me, I always thank them humbly and remark that I am trying and this is a work in progress.
It's a real shame that learning to make music is not more valued in US society and education. Took me 49 years to "get it." A whole new universe opened up to me, and it has given me a new purpose, with exciting things to learn and goals to achieve. This universe of music will be new to me for the rest of my life! How many other things in life can we say that about?
Thanks again for doing what you do! 🙂
Arigato gozai-masu!
Watched the whole thing. I loved the metaphor of how each of us are "on the way."
I’m 24 and been playing 6 strings since I was 8/9. There was a period between ages 15-22 where I didn’t have a guitar and was homeless so it really stunted my growth and learning. All that time I never mentioned my ability to play guitar at all and If I did I would say “I play a little bit of guitar.” I’m not a fast player by any means, but at this point I still get plenty of “wows” from the music/rhythms I create when jamming. I always thought I would be rhythm/chords only player, but I’ve got a lot of people telling me now “you’d be a great lead too”. I’ve surpassed the point of “where I want to be” and had no clue because of years of not having an instrument, not jamming with anyone, and doubting/belittling my ability. I remember one time I was playing with the first person I ever jammed with, we were recording some demos and he told me to do a solo. I did the solo and we listened back to it, and in the middle of it he goes “wow man you sound good” meanwhile I’m thinking we were listening to HIS solo and saying in my head “that’s definitely not me” I don’t remember how I responded, but I’m really hoping I didn’t shut the compliment down. I think I said something along the lines of “is that really me? you really think so?” It meant a lot to me because I looked up to him more than any other musician in this world, probably still do. At the time we were 14/15 and he already knew how to play 5 different instruments and it was my first very recorded solo.
I’d like to add that phantom practice is real thing. During the 7 years I didn’t have a guitar to play, I would practice in my head and come up with licks and melodies, and solo to songs in my head, when I finally got a guitar again at 22, my ability had skyrocketed without practicing in 7 years. I could do licks I never thought I’d do, solo without hitting the wrong notes, effortlessly fret complicated chords, and I was 2x faster at playing my scales cleanly.
And I'm fed up with my insecurities since I know I've got more to give. Last time at the jamsession, I decided to straighten up and focus only on Giving and Listening. Insecurity leads to me holding back and living in my head on stage. I want to let it all out and I've seen time and time again that people enjoy what I have to give. And how humble a thing is that, to want to share everything I have as best I can? How grateful I am to be in the position to do that. And now noticing realtime how I'm Not recognising that I've worked really hard to get to that place, because I need to be there.
Super simple: Smile and say "thank you." There's absolutely no reason you need to affirm or deny other people's opinions of you, just accept them and move on.
"Comparison is the thief of joy."
I've always tried to play something that I'd want to listen to...if I listen to myself and think "I don't like that" then I go and make it better and the end result is something that I like. If you enjoy what you're doing that's really the best thing - people should enjoy making music, it's such a beautiful gift. Thanks Pat!
Another 'spot on' video my friend, because it's very differcult to sell yourself on the business side of music with a negative outlook on yourself! Be safe my friend, Jazz On & God Bless!!!
Sometimes we wonder if someone is actually being genuine or just trying to flatter. I have experienced both
I used to do something similar (answering acompliment poorly), and at 50 it's a hard habit to break. Breaking it is something I've been really proud of myself for (only managed it recently).
When I decided to go pro, the head of the music union here asked me "are you good?" I'm not sure I answered it very well. I said "some other professional sax players say I am, but..." This was before I had gained more confidence and broke the habit.
This was REAL talk. I've been way too guilty of this for way too long, pre-college, during, and just after. I also have autism, so the "other people's perspective" thing doesn't usually come easily or make sense to me, so thanks for explaining it!
Thanks Patrick!
PS, the bits where you said "this'll go into a therapy session" were the most powerful. Would love more of that! Also, the "just because you've got more to learn doesn't mean you haven't learned anything" is gold.
"Thanks for the compliment, but I'll try and work more to sound even better"
This is a "real talk" indeed, I'll watch this over and over till it sinks in properly.
Thanks Pat
You're indeed a mentor 🙌🏿🙌🏿🔥
Patrick, over the last few months you have become one of my musical heroes. I think your playing and your philosophy around music have helped respark my passion for music, and I am so thankful to you for that. In high school, I was one of these "prodigy kids" who stood out from the other kids. But after coming to college (not music school) I realized how poor my music education and ability actually was compared to my new peers, and I've struggled with feeling confident enough to share my music. I feel like I have a very good ear and knowledge of music theory, and I play a few different instruments fairly well, but I struggle to put my MUSIC, my heart and soul, out there for others to see. I always feel like I need to practice more, or that I'm not good enough. This video connected with me in a deep way, and I think that taking your advice will help me with my musical confidence.
I had a recent encounter like this where a friend who I think is a lot better than me and admire gave me a compliment and I said “thank you that makes me feel a lot better actually” which was 100% true I thought I really clammed some stuff on stage and when they said that it got me out of my own head and realized not everyone sees me the way I see me.
I basically was trying to say I accepted the compliment and also acknowledged that I don’t feel that great about my playing and I am trying to form a more positive self-image. I felt that was an honest way to respond, do you (including all y’all in the comments) think that was an appropriate thing to say?
Also, I think it’s a lot worse in the internet age because we see all these virtuosos all the time on social media. It’s been helping me to remember that social media is a concentration of the greatest players around the world, and it’s normal to not be able to play at that level with the amount of experience I have.
I’ve been playing guitar with no live or band experience for 6 years but I’ve only been actually studying jazz with a jazz teacher for 1 and have just barely started to play with bands, meaning I can play well with jam band stuff but feel I am way less versed in jazz, like I am having a lot of trouble outlining the changes of a jazz blues right now in a bebop style.
I know so much more theory and analysis than I can actually perform confidently right now, and that’s why I feel so frustrated and have had a bad self image
I've learned to simply say "thank you so much-I'm still working on it" which to me acknowledges the compliment and also the fact that I'm not satisfied yet - I'm still on the journey as I will always be.
I guess my point is, why does the person who gave you the compliment NEED to know you're "still working on it"? You can just say thank you and be grateful for where you are, even if you know that there's always something to work on. You made it this far. You don't need to convince yourself or anyone else that you're "humble".
@@PatrickBartleyMusic I'm not trying to convince myself or anyone else-rather just acknowledging that it's a never-ending journey. I don't know if they need to hear it or not. Some folks don't know. I talk to many people who don't know anything about jazz and aren't familiar with what it takes to really make music in this way. This is simply how I feel comfortable responding, wether they need to hear it or not. I think it's an inspiring message, in any art form.
Struggling from life long confidence issues as well as perfectionism has really made it difficult for me to accept compliments, up till the point where I realise I come off as ungrateful - lost track of all the chase-up texts to people to say an earnest thank you after the show. That said, when people tell me to ‘keep going’, that always activates my gratitude, because they recognise that I’m a work in progress (which doesn’t feed into the imposter syndrome of usual compliments; it feels like it’s hard to discern between genuine praise and post-gig politeness) but still believe in the good I can do later.
I had an album recording with some peeps and the whole time i felt like crap. Everything i played and and thought of just wasnt there all of a sudden. Pretty sure i annoyed everyone and brought the mood down. Listened to the recordings recently and damn. If i would've had a good mindset it would be really sick. There was some cool stuff, but my own self doubt at the time actually ruined it for me xD So yeah. From now on im taking all the compliments and not doubting my abilities anymore
Jazz has been a major part of my life but the pursuit that I actually learned this lesson in was gaming! Overwatch specifically, I was playing in tournaments and had major confidence issues in my ability to play well. I became somewhat notorious in my group for talking down to myself if I ever made a mistake and it made me a real pain to be around in hindsight. Eventually one day one of the guys in our server had to take me aside and talk. I remember everything he said word for word, he told me: "I get why you feel this way, really. But these guys have watched you grow from just learning to being one of the better players around here. And a lot of them skill-wise are still where they were when you started. You've been rolling us in these games, if you're calling yourself trash, what does that make us?"
That was really eye-opening for me, and it helped me realize just how damaging that kind of negative self-talk can actually be for OTHER people's self confidence (for music this would be a matter of musicians talking to other musicians). If they watch someone they see as really good or better than them talk down to themselves about their ability, how do you think it makes those people feel about themselves and their own abilities?
Being willing to accept yourself as being good at something if you're good at it can actually be really healthy for the self-confidence of those around you doing the same thing as you, and that's something that I think we often forget about when we think about staying "humble".
I started playing just a year ago; I used to play the violin in elementary and was above average but the passion wasn’t there. I just turned 20 and I’m studying percussion and piano now; but Im always going back and forth with being good and not being good enough bc I compare myself to much, but this video helped; love the community ❤
One should accept a compliment graciously. Thats what i do. Js. Its really simple.
Writing this to remind myself of the things that resonated with me the most “Just because you have more to learn, doesn’t mean you haven’t learned anything”
This is great! I had an old director in high school who always told us that no matter how we felt we played, if we receive a compliment we should always be appreciative of the fact that the person giving the compliment was still moved enough to say something to us. If we reply with "It wasn't that good" or "Nah man I suck" it isn't respectful of the person giving the compliment, because we're saying they shouldn't feel that way.
Part of this is just that next to fantasy, reality is just going to be a disappointment. And it can be hard to find inspiration without getting stuck in fantasy. You gotta decide if you want to preserve the fantasy or actually do something. One way you get to imagine yourself better than you are, but the other way might show you something better than you could imagine.
Important subject...
Thanks, I'll try it, to become more confident about myself.
Dude, I sucked at sax for so long in college, that when I finally felt the scale tip in the other direction, I was very eager to say, "hell yah, I worked hard to get this good".
this is such great advice. i dont know what it feels like to be prodigious nor am i a virtuoso…but im up the mountain-maybe halfway on my musical journey. but, thanks to working in an unrelated field for 33 years, day-dreaming of playing my guitar in every crappy meeting, im now too old to become a “great” jazz musician. thats just a fact. but, i still have enuff years left to be the best me i can be whether i reach the top of the mountain or not.
Like u said-you just gotta like climbing aka music. and i f$&@ing love it. Two people who I respect enormously-one being my teacher, the great guitarist and barry Harris expert: chris parks, the other one of my fellow students-an advanced piano player- recently told me to stop prefacing things I’ve been posting with all the type of negative self incrimination that you’re describing and just post the stuff and let it stand up instead tearing it down. and they’re right.
👊hell, i may have to change the whole tile and tenor of my humble little channel now that im thinking on this…🤔
I’ve actually been working on my confidence and self Image playing wise and I appreciate stuff like this man. NO ONE talks about this!! This is extremely important, and Im so glad to hear you talk about it. Thank you for making this video
Great stuff, Patrick. Thanks for you sharing your thoughts!
Rocky- It’s a battle against the self, man. Always ask yourself questions of awareness like, “was I able to do, or did I do this yesterday? Did you make an attempt to better yourself today? Did you make a legitimate effort? From where you began to now, who are you and how are you?”
Damn, I've never been so glad to land on the right video at the right time. Wanting to Learn to play jazz has me so lost in not even acknowledging I can probably play a simple song just fine. Or maybe a scale slow but sure. Then I end up worrying about how to play triads because of the pressure to get good. In that I forget everything else I know and feel bad about myself.
It's also almost like the rush to get good makes you feel you're not where you want to be ,also making yourself say your not good enough, to the point that practicing is hard because it almost feels you've done it all as much as you know you haven't.
Man this video was a deep cut. I started gigging with my dad's band at 13, played through high school and college and learned from many elders. Fast forward to now in my 30s I don't practice as much as I should or gig as much as I want to and I know my technique is not my best right now but I'm going to stop focusing on thinking that I suck and focus on the knowledge I still have and positive affirmations of the bread and butter tunes I can still bust out.
Your comment about being the kid that was slightly better through school and having to keep yourself down hits hard. I was always the kid that practiced a lot so I kept pushing further and further ahead of my peers, but I felt like I couldn't come out and say I was good without being like "look at me I work hard and can play all this stuff." I still sometimes feel like I need to keep my head down but I'm trying to unlearn it because I'm not a top level player at all, but I'm soooo much better than I pretend to be in conversations with musicians but I always feel like admitting it is a bad thing even though it's not.
You're the realest of them all maestro!
Excellent advice, i'm gonna remember this.
Amen!!!
Very interesting talk, Im certainly guilty of saying Im bad whenever I got a compliment
Being a beginner accordionist starting a year ago it's important to reframe things so instead of saying I'm bad I say I'm a beginner still learning. As a way to not shut myself down but to acknowledge my state and accomplishment in a year.
Personally, I'd say that the best way I confront this issue is by saying " Yeah! I'm always learning " This phrase goes both ways. When I think / know that my performance could've been better and when I receive a compliment, I'll say the same thing but with a " thank you! " added. It allows me to not be arrogant but also to confront my fellow musicians who, one way or another you feel kinda criticized by them, but mainly because you know they know AND you know, that they know you know. And that is the full thruth from me, because i've gotten to the point that assuming a constant learning path allows me to understand the sharps and flats of life and enjoy more doing the thing that I love, and that is playing trumpet and making music.
This is real. Thank you.
Thanks, agreed,😊
I like the long video length.
Thank you for sharing Patrick, you provide an informative perspective.
Dang haven't watched it yet but had to comment real quick: i really struggle with putting myself down when it comes to music. Like a lot.
Thanks Patrick, I'll try)
Ever since i got my tenor sax about 5 months ago, I've always wanted to be better and better, and I think that it makes it really hard for me to feel like im getting any better at all. I'm obsessed with dexter gordon, and the more i listen to him the more i realise how far away i am from reaching that peak. its discouraging when ive been playing sax for 5 years(alto) and im still not as good as i should be. always been a tough thing for me to fix 😮💨
Brother I just discovered your channel and Im eating these videos up. You have a VERY important voice in this space.
Patrick, you are a leader in the community, and I truly appreciate your words here. Coming from an american christian background where a premium was placed on humility, I've struggled with this for years (and still do). I appreciate you kindly calling us those of us out who need to hear it.
And your call to action for a more supportive community of cats and one that acknowledges individual progress in favor of the comparison to the best cat in town is one that I fully subscribe to (yes, even though you didn't ask for it).
I do this all the time. But because in my head sometimes feels like people gives compliments just to be politically correct. I also agree with your point. Self deprecation is bad for oneself. This video is very helpful
Thank you.
I completely agree with this. I also feel like saying nah I'm not that good might give the impression to the person giving the compliment that you think they're naive for thinking you're good. Thank you for vocalizing this point!
Wow! Have you been following me around? I ALWAYS reject compliments. My mind breaks upon hearing them and doesn’t accept them.
Thanks for your insight!
I once asked my Arabic teacher how to say, "My Arabic is not very good." She taught me the phrase "3arabiiyyati 3a 2edde." I asked for the literal translation and she said, "My Arabic is just my size." It changed the way I looked at learning and being a learner in general.
Me thinking you were trying to address people calling themselves bad in general (calling out my entire band)
You actually explaining that it's a compliment thing
PREACH! So happy to see someone talking about this
I had a teacher that chewed me out over this in college during a lesson, haha.
Glad you’re speaking up on this for up-and-coming musicians to hear.
My grandfather told me about this same topic 9 years ago. I could play better than the average player but still wanted to sound humble by declining a compliment after a performance. I’d even start talking about points in the music where I made some mistakes. My grandfather told me “when someone comes up to you and compliments your playing, just humbly say thank you and that you appreciate the compliment and move on! They don’t need the excuses!” That stuck with me! Glad you spoke on this topic.
Growing up As an Asian kid… this video truly touched me. Most of the people I know were growing up by getting lots of punishment (somehow this was a big part of asian parenting). And I felt I lot released after watching this video, thank you PJ! I came a long way, and I truly believe that I will be going where I wanna be too!
I think the biggest problem with having confidence as a musician is twofold. The amount of jazz musicians being arrogant, know-it-alls about whatever they think. I mean if you want an honest answer, I saw a post you made where you were pointing out this Miles Davis Bebop line and someone commented "Sounds like a typical bebop line." You commented with something along the lines of: you are telling jokes with a laughing face. Now on one hand, I totally see where your response came from lol, but I actually had the same response/feeling as the dude who commented that initially. To me, it sounded pretty inspired by Charlie Parker. I am not a jazz expert, and I am not amazing or anything, pretty average(the irony). But like I have been transcribing Donna Lee for the past two months or so (I have like 8 bars left I have been grinding), and to me, since I've had that in my ear, it just reminded me of Donna Lee, especially the chromatic part later in the head (I bet you are singing that in your head right now). And in my head, i genuinely couldn't think of anything in that moment that felt different to me than what Parker was doing. It didn't feel like something new at that moment.
Now, the thing is, is after listening to Miles Davis playing that line over and over, I felt completely different. I agreed with you completely and saw where you were coming from. I realized the phrasing felt really speical, but I didn't really hear that the very first listen. The point of me saying this, is not that you are an arrogant asshole for saying what you said. I didn't think you did anything wrong. But I think for that guy, he probably felt stupid. Hell, I felt a little stupid too at first because I felt the same way as him. Again, you are an expert at jazz, and I think any casual jazz musician shouldn't feel bad at all for getting corrected by you. But the fact of the matter, is that being told your opinion is wrong, even just straight up laughable, hurts. I am sure any jazz musician has experienced this before. You are at one of your first jam sessions, you seem to be hanging in there, playing with great musicans, then all of a sudden you make a stupid mistake. Like you miss a beat, or you play a really sour note for too long, or you just fall on your face in some way. Whatever it is, right after you make that mistake, or even worse, as you are making the mistake, every musician in the band gives you a bad look. Then after the song or after the session, they tell you what you did. Has happened to me a handful of times, thankfully I get bad looks a lot less often, but these are real confidence killers.
If you play with someone better than you, which is what we should all be doing in my opinion, you will not always play according to that person's standards. This is only natural. This happened to pretty much all the greats when they were playing with each other. Miles Davis used to scold Coltrane for playing too many notes. Herbie Hancock also received similar treatment from Miles (for different reasons). Pat Metheney used to get scolded by Gary Burton. I mean I'm sure we could think of plenty of examples. This is literally coated in the musician framework of jazz. The fact of the matter is that this is a feature of jazz music, not a bug. It makes us better to be scolded at. I am very grateful for every bad look I've gotten playing jazz because now I rarely, if at all, make those mistakes anymore. Getting bad looks makes you a good musician, but they kill our confidence, so it is very difficult to balance these things.
Back to your original comment I brought up, I wouldn't have taken the time to listen to that lick over and over if you hadn't said that to that guy. I literally would've accepted that Miles wasn't doing anything new, yet because of your comment, I discovered something about the phrasing I would have otherwise ignored. So ultimately I am completely grateful for that comment, and again I mentioned it to show my experience and give you and everyone some insight not to bring you down in any way.
I think when it comes down to it, the best players need to be more kind to less experienced players in my opinion. Of the jazz musicians I know, they are sometimes (perhaps often lol) toxic in how they teach. I don't think they intend to be either, for it's also how they were taught. It's this power thing where you spend years getting bad looks then all of a sudden you get to be the one to give the bad look. I think this power dynamic is easily exploitable, and many musicians enjoy doing this (perhaps subconsciously not even intentionally). I think also this is very dominant among jazz musicians who went to university, which I think is an added layer to all of this.
The other thing here that is important IMO is that the most confident musicians are the ones who are always giving the bad looks lol. It's like if I don't play something your way, it is a problem. I think this is true outside of jazz too for sure. I played with a producer one time, and he acted like he was an expert at everything in his studio, like he knew everything there was about music. Granted, he is super talented, but he's a 22 year old kid who just has so much confidence that he's a narcissist. I don't think he thought I knew anything to teach him, and that was defintely frustrating. I will say after the fact a couple months later he said he looked up to me, which meant a lot to me, but in the moment of playing with him, I felt very belittled.
Anyway, I think you are a great player man, and I didn't say all this to act like you are some arrogant guy because I don't think you are at all. My saxophonist friend who I think is unreal and amazing , best saxophone player I have ever played with, said this about you "that dude is a jazz god. His playing is otherworldly." I have the same opinion. Your playing on traditional standards, but also your Japanense music band, is just so phenomenal and inspiring. Thank you for your music but also thank you for making a video like this. It brings into conversation the essence of jazz culture, and I think this is an important conversation. I think it is important to be confident, but we should all remember that ANY musician can teach us something about music. I think if we are going to be humble and confident, it relies upon us to always look within ourselves and question ourselves, to always be willing to learn, but also be confident in what we know. Perhaps that is a good answer I don't know I am an idiot :). Thank you for this video.
Thank you for this video.
Patrick chose language of facts.
Crucial video! "Thank you" really is the best way to reply whether someone is telling you rock, or you suck. Putting yourself down just lays all your insecurities out there for everyone else to see. Being thankful and grateful might not always get one further in life, but it always gives one the chance to leave a positive impression. I always remind myself when playing (especially when playing ticketed/cover charge) events: these people paid money because one way or another, they got the idea that they wanted to spend their night hearing the music I'm a part of. If you turn around and tell them after they bought the tickets, drinks, t shirt, etc that you think you suck, you pretty much just dissed their whole night, and you're essentially telling them they have bad judgement for coming to see you/your colleagues/bandleader! The negativity becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy in that moment.
Unfortunately all too many people can't find a middle ground. They either say: "I suck big time" or they have inflated egos and think they are great in spite of having glaring deficiencies musically. Only a few people are able to positively accept themselves as they are while at the same time knowing about their weaknesses and working to get better.
This was very educational and eye opening. Thank you patrick, truly
I don’t think I’ve had this problem because, if anything, I tend to be arrogant about my own skill, but it has definitely irked me when people say that because it comes off as being coy and trying to get more compliments. I realize that’s not actually what’s usually going on, but that’s the vibe it gives off, which can be annoying.
I've been guilty of so much of this to the point where it definitely has had negative effects, but I'm finally reaching a healthier attitude with the whole thing. Mindset is such a big deal, and it isn't built in a day either.
real one