I'm guessing this was primarily invoked due to limited and the nature of the set having a number of potentially high-impact enchantments. Leaving black out from being able to interact on that axis feels bad when you can pretty much guarantee that W/U/G will all have options. That just leaves red alone in the "can't remove enchantments" corner (to my knowledge), but whether or not that matters might depend on how aggressive the typical R or R/x draft deck is; maybe those decks tend to just be too fast for crazy enchantments to matter 🤷♂️ In a broader sense though, I think it's fine as long as they aren't doing it frequently or super efficiently. They've had a few variations of this kind of effect over the past couple years and none have been particularly powerful or impactful, yet it serves as at least some kind of preventative measure were some format-defining enchantment come along. Tl;dr: It's better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it, even if the effect isn't something black usually gets access to.
To piggyback on the point about the context of this particular limited - what enchantments are there to remove? Rooms. Destroying Rooms feels Black to me
@@abeybaebe2514 The rare returning Glimmers are probably not worth a card to deal with a second time. Figure it out. However, I'm totally fine with Black being able to deal with the Mythic Impending cycle
I'd be more into it if it cost 1BB or was a sorcery, but given how good and relevant they're making enchantments, giving a third color access to it is probably pretty healthy.
At first I hated it, but Patrick's reasoning makes a lot of sense now. Enchantments in general have been very weak for most of the game's history, so 2 colors having few removal options (blue having counters and bounce spells is enough imo) wasn't much of a problem. But enchantments are catching up, so it makes sense that either black or red would have to be given that capability. Hopefully they don't print any better options, and don't continue to just add it as an extra mode on creature/planeswalker removal spells
Agree with the last statement in particular. Mire in Misery and Pharika's Libation are okay since it's harder to hit the permanent you want; these are very weak enchantment removal spells and weak cards in general. Feed the Swarm is so much better than those but probably still okay since as a creature removal spell it is very bad and as enchantment removal at least you pay a bunch of life. Presumably the enchantments you care about removing cost 4 or more. To give a 1993 example, Karma costs 4 mana and black mages at the time would do anything to get rid of that card (guess they played Dark Ritual into Gloom but's a whole other conversation). Whitering Torment I think may be too much. As creature removal it is mediocre, sure, but really that is the secondary mode on the card. Three mana and 2 life to destroy, I don't know, Omniscience, sounds like a great deal to be if I am not green or white. I'm holding out hope.
I'd say Withering Torment is fine, that's still much worse than what White and Green can do, but that should be the best Black gets at enchantment removal.
Yes. As was mentioned, having two colors unable to deal with enchantments at all was bad (Blue can counter them, and bounce anything on the field), but also because Black having no way to deal with two permanent types was equally bad (and that's two of the original permanent types). Black having no way to deal with enchantments or artifacts was a flaw. Saying that, Black should never be as good at it as White and Green.
I was initally against it, but i came around to black being able to make you sac enchantments, thats flavourful. Targeted, instantspeed, minimal cost? Nahhhhhhhhhhh
Yes! In theory black is the color of death and destruction so it should actually be the best at removal. In design it needs to do more just bc that’s the direction of the game…..every color is doing everything now. Black should have both enchantment and artifact removal tbh.
the problem with WOTC trying to be modest and infrequent will mean we get once every other set and before foundation is out of standard we got like 7 black enchantment removals.
No. Colors should have stronger strengths instead of fewer weaknesses. The mechanical nature of the color pie is that every color has things it cannot do. Not 'has trouble doing' but CANNOT do. If you want to destroy enchantments, play white or green in addition to black.
I'm guessing this was primarily invoked due to limited and the nature of the set having a number of potentially high-impact enchantments. Leaving black out from being able to interact on that axis feels bad when you can pretty much guarantee that W/U/G will all have options. That just leaves red alone in the "can't remove enchantments" corner (to my knowledge), but whether or not that matters might depend on how aggressive the typical R or R/x draft deck is; maybe those decks tend to just be too fast for crazy enchantments to matter 🤷♂️
In a broader sense though, I think it's fine as long as they aren't doing it frequently or super efficiently. They've had a few variations of this kind of effect over the past couple years and none have been particularly powerful or impactful, yet it serves as at least some kind of preventative measure were some format-defining enchantment come along.
Tl;dr: It's better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it, even if the effect isn't something black usually gets access to.
To piggyback on the point about the context of this particular limited - what enchantments are there to remove? Rooms. Destroying Rooms feels Black to me
And hitting the returned side of the rare glimmer creatures
Though that's probably less of a thing for limited
@@abeybaebe2514 The rare returning Glimmers are probably not worth a card to deal with a second time. Figure it out. However, I'm totally fine with Black being able to deal with the Mythic Impending cycle
Yes, absolutely, as long as it's never the best color at it (Invoke Despair).
I like how feed the swarm punished you but let you
I'd be more into it if it cost 1BB or was a sorcery, but given how good and relevant they're making enchantments, giving a third color access to it is probably pretty healthy.
At first I hated it, but Patrick's reasoning makes a lot of sense now. Enchantments in general have been very weak for most of the game's history, so 2 colors having few removal options (blue having counters and bounce spells is enough imo) wasn't much of a problem. But enchantments are catching up, so it makes sense that either black or red would have to be given that capability. Hopefully they don't print any better options, and don't continue to just add it as an extra mode on creature/planeswalker removal spells
I really don’t think it’s a problem if Naya can do Artifact destruction and Abzan can do Enchantment destruction.
Agree with the last statement in particular. Mire in Misery and Pharika's Libation are okay since it's harder to hit the permanent you want; these are very weak enchantment removal spells and weak cards in general.
Feed the Swarm is so much better than those but probably still okay since as a creature removal spell it is very bad and as enchantment removal at least you pay a bunch of life. Presumably the enchantments you care about removing cost 4 or more. To give a 1993 example, Karma costs 4 mana and black mages at the time would do anything to get rid of that card (guess they played Dark Ritual into Gloom but's a whole other conversation).
Whitering Torment I think may be too much. As creature removal it is mediocre, sure, but really that is the secondary mode on the card. Three mana and 2 life to destroy, I don't know, Omniscience, sounds like a great deal to be if I am not green or white.
I'm holding out hope.
I'd say Withering Torment is fine, that's still much worse than what White and Green can do, but that should be the best Black gets at enchantment removal.
Yes.
As was mentioned, having two colors unable to deal with enchantments at all was bad (Blue can counter them, and bounce anything on the field), but also because Black having no way to deal with two permanent types was equally bad (and that's two of the original permanent types). Black having no way to deal with enchantments or artifacts was a flaw.
Saying that, Black should never be as good at it as White and Green.
I was initally against it, but i came around to black being able to make you sac enchantments, thats flavourful.
Targeted, instantspeed, minimal cost? Nahhhhhhhhhhh
Yes!
In theory black is the color of death and destruction so it should actually be the best at removal.
In design it needs to do more just bc that’s the direction of the game…..every color is doing everything now.
Black should have both enchantment and artifact removal tbh.
the problem with WOTC trying to be modest and infrequent will mean we get once every other set and before foundation is out of standard we got like 7 black enchantment removals.
No. Colors should have stronger strengths instead of fewer weaknesses. The mechanical nature of the color pie is that every color has things it cannot do. Not 'has trouble doing' but CANNOT do. If you want to destroy enchantments, play white or green in addition to black.
It is fine, but it should be weak. 3 mana targeted enchantment removal at instant speed seems just a bit too efficient
No. The colour pie has been blurred too much