The Back Spike From A Coil Can Destroy Switches, Relays And Electronic Parts.
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 3 ต.ค. 2017
- I had made a previous video called free energy Vs the laws of physics, and I had talked about some of the devices people built, hoping they could build what amounts to a free energy motor. or better known as a perpetual motion machine. Shortly after I made the video one of my viewers corrected me on a mistake I made in saying that the back spike which comes out of a coil when it's input is interrupted has more energy for a short segment of time than the input power if sampled for the same segment of time. It turns out I was incorrect, so I wanted to talk about this mistake in this video, and attach it to my first video.
Really well explained. Thank you!
Good show, man. Well done!
I went into your shop once when I was 6 and it blew my mind. It was definitely an inspiration.
It's always nice to hear I inspired someone. Thanks for the comment.
Thank you for the great video.
THE LAW OF CREATION OF ENERGY
How Electromagnetic Field Energy is created in all Current Bearing Wires at the Sub-Atomic Quantum Electron Level via Electron Fission and Electron Fusion: th-cam.com/video/hVPT1KvVmFE/w-d-xo.html
Why can't every educative video on YT be like this.
Nice job ...does the reverse voltage breakdown that makes the diode to conduct , have any impact in selecting the diode ratings to used across a coil ?
If it does , how do you now determine the diode to used if , for instance the supply Voltage is 24vDC ?
Yes. It's important to use a diode which can handle the power without being damaged.
Interesting video.. I've been experimenting with the Spike & I've come across what you're explaining in your video.. I built an Automotive Relay Charging device which I'm currently having a go at sound proofing & when I tried measuring the output going to the charge battery it killed my meter.
It sounds like you may have low end meter, and you exceeded it's voltage capacity.
Thanks Dave.
Your welcome. Thanks for subscribing!
This was really well explained with that practical example. Thank you so much.
Thank you. I appreciate the comment.
Which video did you mention the "audio oscilloscope" you show towards the end?
I'd like to know what components are needed to make one, looks like it's really useful.
Regards
I mentioned it in a few of my videos. Here is one. th-cam.com/video/y-DAutCRuLo/w-d-xo.html
I now realise I have seen that video earlier in the year, just it was so long ago and I don't have the best memory. Thanks :)
Keep producing the engaging content, hope it continues to pay the bills.
Thanks!
Great video could you tell me how you would control the voltage spike in a bidirectional dc motor such as a power window circiut to protect the switches. Thank you
If you have a bidirectional motor that means it's being controlled by two switches that are in one package. This means the switch must reverse the polarity of the power going to the motor. so placing a diode across the motor output would be impossible since one position of the switch would allow power to flow in the forward biased position of the diode which would short out the diode when the polarity going to the motor changed, but if you had a reverse biased diode at the contacts of each switch output rather than on the motor itself that's the only way I'm aware of that you could do this, but perhaps a non-polarized capacitor at the motors input contacts might also be used to absorbe the back spike. Since the voltage of the back spike is much higher than the input voltage to the motor just make sure your capacitor is rated to handle the voltage. You can google "putting a capacitor across a switch to prevent arcing" to learn more. I hope this helps.
In your first example with the 12v battery. Does the back emf have any affect on the battery at all? Since it’s a reverse voltage to it?
The energy gets dumped somewhere. Part of it can return to the source, but not all.
Thank you!
Genius man
Thanks for the video. maybe you can educate me.
I'm using a timer to energize two 6v relays. One relay provides + current to a dc motor the other provides ( - ) current to the motor. The motor opens a small door. When the door is fully open it hits a limit switch which cuts the power. In time a different timer activates 2 other 6v relays that then sends + and ( - ) to the same motor but in the opposite polarity to reverse the motor thus closing the door. All are running off of the same 6v battery. When one timer activates the relay and the door hits its limit switch killing the power the opposite timer picks up some sort of back spike and goes dead. What do I need to do? Do I need a resister, a diode or something else? And where in line would it go?
Hope you can help!
That's more details than I'd care to figure out withouting being well compensated for my time.
when you transfere hyer voltage into capacitors it is just a matter of time, for it to gain amperage, so just by including the time it take to charge you using time has the converter,consider we can speek of pico second and down dto .0000001 herts
Great Job! But W=V x A by time. The current kill the time and the dipole, if current is zéro ( Fogal transistor) is great. now if W= V x A (0) the time is modified, for distribution of energy. You want a good timing, very critical, The back spike is the discharge of the capacity coil , all coil have a R L C in.
Hi thank you for.tge video.
I am really interested in what you called ' audio oscilloscope. I take it it's some kind of current probe. By any chance, do you know where I can get one. Or can I make one.
I would think any audio amplifier would work. I just use an old telephone amplifier that came with an inductive pick up microphone. You may find these two links helpful. www.electronickits.com/product/suction-cup-phone-pickup-kit/ www.amazon.com/Telephone-Microphone-Suction-Cup-Pickup/dp/B0034I75IK
I have 28v DC with 2-6 amp panel meter flowing, with 2 or 4 Millihenry metal core inductors. How do I set it up with capacitor for end use of 6amps across a separate spark gap for approx with 100volts output, and 6 amps same time? Peak amps on oscilloscope , or average amps on small hand meter?. Standard panel meters do not register at high speed. Is this current final flow from the battery through the coil and out, or is current only out from capacitor?
Also, the vibrator relay with capacitor I tested ,only allowed flow of 1 amp through separate set contacts. Either problem of duty cycle or frequency of L + C.
Your not saying anything I can understand.
Now THAT'S a spark!
there is something bothering me in your explanation but I can't really put the finger on what it is. Isn't it so that when you stop the current / open the switch, the coil doesn't create a reverse polarity, but in fact keeps pushing current in the original direction, because the coil resists changes? So this is why placing a reverse diode works, because then the current can just go on in the same direction, looping back to the start of the coil, while without it it would burn your LED (in the motor example) overpowering the LED in its reverse (blocked) direction with +80V on the anode, and boom
You are right. The video creator has not understood that "Back emf" occurs only when the coil is charged.
Hi. From 1:40 on, I wonder how the capacitor will discharge once it is fully charged, since the diode is then reverse-biased? Maybe this is a mistake of yours.
The electrons from the negative side of the capacitor will go back to the positive side of the battery, no?
They could also go back inside the coil and the voltage will dissipate
Sir what we need to do to if their is coil workig on 220 volt, means i m using a relay of 220volt, what type of diode or capister i used to avoid back spike??
Your question is difficult to understand. If you're asking how to eliminate the back spike you can use any diode which can handle the back spike current and voltage without being harmed.
Electric Fan Capacitor 1uf, parrallel in both 220v relay terminal
If you have 2 coils with the same resistance then, for the same input wattage, the coil with higher inductance will store more energy in it's magnetic field - worth pondering.
@dylans voice One interesting reference to I think what Gary may be referring to is Joseph Newman where this is explained. He has a free PDF that is interesting reading related to this.
@GerymcKinnonUFO THE LAW OF CREATION OF ENERGY
How Electromagnetic Field Energy is created in all Current Bearing Wires at the Sub-Atomic Quantum Electron Level via Electron Fission and Electron Fusion: th-cam.com/video/hVPT1KvVmFE/w-d-xo.html
Energy is conserved, but power could theoretically be momentarily larger than before the spike. Energy is the sum of power. If the energy is released very quickly, the power could be destructive. In fact, the lower the resistance next to the diode, the slower the release of energy. This is initially counterintuitive because we associate a short with danger. But the current in the coil is allowed to die down slowly, letting the energy in the magnetic field die down slowly.
THE LAW OF CREATION OF ENERGY
How Electromagnetic Field Energy is created in all Current Bearing Wires at the Sub-Atomic Quantum Electron Level via Electron Fission and Electron Fusion: th-cam.com/video/hVPT1KvVmFE/w-d-xo.html
You mentioned that the power would be reversed after opening the circuit. This was confusing to me until I realized you probably meant that the *voltage* across the coil swapped polarity. I'm pretty sure the *current* through the coil continues in the same direction - you apply a voltage across the coil, like spinning up a flywheel, and when you break the circuit the flywheel tries to keep spinning, pushing really hard and building up large voltages almost immediately. (I suppose technically power = voltage*current, so the power DID reverse, but I sorta don't think that's what you meant.)
Yes I meant the polarity was reversed coming from the coil the moment I opened the switch.
This is how it works. Consider the coil as an energy storage component just like a battery which store energy during charging and release energy when the battery is used to power a load, so when you send current into the coil, you are actually charging it and when you remove the power source, the stored energy comes out but due to the nature of coils the polarity of the stored energy will be reverse
went it school for electrical theory and if the current is ac or pulsed one can for limited time observe reactive power and power flow from anther demotion. one has to balance capacitance, reactence, inductance, and it can be observed!!! get the balance right and the electric meter will spin backwards!!! been a long time do not have my papers or books but their are is some solid theory. but it has yet to be quantified. if one wants to find alternative electrical energy, electro statics and rf/pulsed dc is where I wold look, all the study has been ac/dc. take care.
look into newman motors. they run on that principle and uses negetive amps to run.
I always wondered why there was a diode present so often on magnetic coils.
I thought it was just a passive overvoltage protection for the coil, but it's actually an overvoltage protection for the relay powering the coil.
The diode across a relay prevents the back spike from the coil from damaging one of the regulators or other components in the power supply.
@@GrantsPassTVRepair THE LAW OF CREATION OF ENERGY
How Electromagnetic Field Energy is created in all Current Bearing Wires at the Sub-Atomic Quantum Electron Level via Electron Fission and Electron Fusion: th-cam.com/video/hVPT1KvVmFE/w-d-xo.html
Could that back spike burn the motor from where it originated?
I would think that would depend on the driver circuit in the motor. If it was a purely inductive motor I would think that would be unlikely, but if you have a transistor driver and no internal protection from a back spike that could be a problem. A motor with brushes might wear a little faster on the commutator contacts due to the back spike, but not instantly.
What interests me is if it’s possible to temporarily store some of the coil energy in a motor into capacitors to improve efficiency and protect against sparks when turning the coil off. (And feed energy back when more effective.)
I've done this, but there are problems you encounter in attempting to recycle the back spike, which slow the motor down.
ReGen-X Stepper Motor - EV Regenerative Acceleration Motor Operation
Flyback Mode Process Harnessing Generator Action in a Motor: th-cam.com/video/jQyMdRMERaQ/w-d-xo.html
US Patent: patents.google.com/patent/US10291162B1/en
@@GrantsPassTVRepair ReGen-X Stepper Motor - EV Regenerative Acceleration Motor Operation
Flyback Mode Process Harnessing Generator Action in a Motor: th-cam.com/video/jQyMdRMERaQ/w-d-xo.html
US Patent: patents.google.com/patent/US10291162B1/en
I suspect that your experiments can go further.Try the very same experiment but this time with various cores.The usual soft iron laminated core, ferrite , the phenomenal Metglas and Permalloy. In addition, pulse it at its resonant frequency......And lets see how the BEMF behaves...... I have subscribed and I have clicked the bell.Waiting to hear from you.
Aa one who loves to experiment, you have stimulated my curiosity. Have you ever conducted the kinds of experiments you suggest. If so what did you discover?
@@GrantsPassTVRepair Glad to hear from you.Like you I have a interest in magnets and coils ;-). I was fascinated when I actually proved that BEMF existed.So it lead me to start planning experiments like what I am suggesting.Air Core versus Iron versus metglas etc.As Metglas has high permeability and can operate at higher freqencies, I am thinking we should see something interesting.
I only got to the charging capacitors with BEMF.So my next move is a series of Microwave transformers driven at their resonant frequency.....But i gotta get volt meter number 10 and a handheld scope.You however have the equipment and drive.I would love if you did those experiments.I am learning from them.
@@garydunn9418 I've put many of my ideas to rest, in pursuit of so my responsibilities, but it's still fun to ponder now and then.
@@GrantsPassTVRepair Does that meant you wont be trying the experiment with the suggested cores ,resonance etc?
I plan to.I will report my results here.I wont buy the metglas yet as I have to experiment with the iron cores I have first.I see no point in moving on to metglas if the theoretical effect is not seen in iron cores.
@@garydunn9418 Perhaps at some time in the future I will,
Babcock recommends TVS diodes.
You are making hybrids of Tesla’s hairpin circuit. It uses a spark gap to generate back EMF, as a normal capacitor would be burned out. The primary coil is acting like a capacitor.
That process to pulse a coil to get back that spike of energy causes the battery to heat up when you constantly ark off that wire to get that high voltage spike and ruins your battery.. TO GET RID OF THIS , just get a transistor and heat sink , that way the transistor and coil gets all the heat.
Wait!? Still alive🤗 or .. ur dads other channel?
If another coil is added in series with the flyback diode so that the back emf from the main coil energizes this new coil, can a feedback loop occurs in the system in which current from the battery adds up in parallel with the back emf of the second coil to power the main coil once again
I'm not entirely sure I understand your question, but it sounds like you're wondering if the back spike from a coil can be recycled, to where it can go from one coil to another, and keep going indefinitely. If that's what you're asking the anwer is no. Due to the resistance in the coil, the flyback spike keeps getting weaker every time it oscillates. You may find this video I made a few years ago to be of interest. th-cam.com/video/Ky2T1-n_Fks/w-d-xo.html
@@GrantsPassTVRepairyes, thats the idea.since the second coil can also produce back emf current during operation could it be recycled
@@GrantsPassTVRepair if the back emf from the second coil is recycled back to the first coil and results in a higher back emf from the first coil to the second coil in the next cycle perhaps this could be useful
@@GrantsPassTVRepair I believe since the back emf from the second coil would be in parallel arrangements with the battery to power the first coil again in the next cycle assuming you are using a make and break device or pulse generator to run the system
@@GrantsPassTVRepair I know what I said my be tricky but I believe that if the timing is right there should be effective feedback between the two coils
531 / 5000
Translation results
Can i ask a good question, why don't you put the switch on the positive side and flash several lights in the circuit after the coil so as to use the initial coil power-up, then re-loop the capacitor at the source with either a handcrafted capacitor risistor, oxide plate to transfer the hyer voltage potential in the caps to the source ... and try to balance the system (light) for self-sustainability or extreme efficiencies.
why dont you place the switch on the right side is the question... thank you for the cool explanation. newbie lucky here. lol
you explain well theoretically about diode flyback function but unfortunately you didn't prove it practically in the video which i was expecting in the end of the video
Because the theory was wrong in not one but two places.
basicaly magneto ignition perhaps dual polarity is mentioned in waste spark ignition beleve it or now turn that staff to plazma ignition you see lot more suprise and no you dont use polarised capacitors they must by ceramic in your case I wuld not go near that coil it culd trow you acros the room so strong wuld by that spike
You see I have problem there Is there any calculation for alternators how is their starting charge effected be useing centrain capacitor types with the lead acid baterry .
I used hv ceramic capacitors just for fun to test out that plasma ignition just bunch 3kw multipel ceramic capacitors in series soldered together 1 goes to + E core type hei ignition coil the 2 side from capacitor directly to ground now I have strange problem me original starting charge from 1000rpm sudenly goes up to 3000rpm or more so tehnicaly speaking me altenator light is always ON if Im under that rpm range so me alternator who is a delco 12si I ques is constantly back charging.
So it apears true ground baterry potential is interacting with alternator and capacitors.
So is there any way I can stop alternator to get effected be this strange effect?
Similar happens to tractor alternators who have capacitors if the capacitor fails the baterry does not charge at all.
So any advice how to counter that problem?
Shuld I use capacitie on the alternator to counter those series hv capacitors on me ignition coil?
Plasma ignition is nice so is amplifier ignition but the baterry get effected from it sadly.
Be the way with plasma ignition the starter motor spin lot faster and smuther engine running perhaps litel bit bether fuel economy.
So thats why I wonder how is that potential controled with capacitor and baterrys exactly does there exist some equation or similar and exactly what type capacitor is used to control field in the alternator?
You ideas don't make much sense, so I can only comment on your last question . The field winding on an alternator is not controlled by a capacitor. It's controlled by a regulator which varies the power going to the field winding, and this in turn regulates the alternators output.
I was hoping you would put a big diode to your inductor.
When I did so my capacitor instantly went from zero to 80 volts just by opening my switch one time, but yes I should have shown the actual experiment.
👍👍
Recycling Back EMF, by regulating it can charge batteries even while supplying energy to a motor or generator. It's the basics of Free Energy being lost.
When you recycle the back spike it slows your rotor down.
it speeds up when u feed it back to the system
@BlacKnight Tech Facts it's the basics of Newman motors and Bedini circuits. What ppl don't get is that the energy you're getting back is a direct result of the mass of the coil. My understanding is that the mass is converted into energy when the coil collapses. capacitors and dumping it back into the circuit not only preserves the speed it increases it exponentially, you can even get to resonance levels where the current can "run away" and become uncontrollable. It's a direct result of the coil "ringing like a bell" when it collapses. Shit's super cool when you look at it from a different angle.
👍👍🙏
anyone has experiment to measure the max shock voltage of the EMF？
what i see is this, when you puslse energy all the energy bounces back to source when release but of the wrong end because the switch is at the end ot it...by purely pulsing a coil inwith useble source after it,, the energy of the pulse bounces back to source, or help to maintain the light on when closed, by adding a trasfer unite or purely voltage hyeght pontiel ro can balance its frequency with the source load( the light) to equilibrium, i manage master part of it. in a 4 hourer experiement that turned into 7 days of light rather then 4 hourers. been havent difficulties mastering..or having to make the caps by hand...not wanting to oxidise myself again..long story short. lots can be done. if you want to try some. give me a chat...
I ❤ your flipping examples 😊 eerrr that didn't sound good😂 but you all know what I mean 😅
Idid all that to charging the sam battery or another battery but it 's not work at all. Just in bedini motor.
Dear Sir,
Just to quote you:
"...interrupted has more energy for a short segment of time than the input power if sampled for the same segment of time. It turns out I was incorrect, so I wanted to talk about this mistake in this video, and attach it to my first video."
Please say how did you establish that you where wrong? I am curious if it was by deduction or my a practical experiment which included measuring outputs ?
Did you use a wattmeter or did calculations?
Best regards,
This is a challenging concept to explain, and I apologize for any confusion, but in my experiment I used an oscilloscope to measure the power because of the speed of the back spike. What I realized after making this video is that the back spike power spread out over time is always less than the input power, but if your coil is large enough, for a given sample of time you can have current and voltage spikes that exceed your input power for the same segment of time. I hope I said this clear enough.
@@GrantsPassTVRepair Dear Sir, that you very much for replying. Thank you too for the answer.Now you have mentioned that it was after the video seen above that you made certain conclusions.I am also understanding that IF your coil is large enough (How large? Inductance? Ohms?) we get current + voltage spikes that exceed your input power for the same segment of time.Very very interesting.I do plan to replicate and share later on.
@@garydunn9418 I hope I made that clear enough for you to understand I'm not claiming you will ever get more overall energy output than your input power, and I don't have any inductance values, but if you have ever hooked up a 9 volt battery to a transformer or coil and noticed the huge increase in the size of the spark when you open the circuit, it's very apparent for a short segment of time there will be a huge increase in the intensity of the arc. Just as a capacitor stores energy in a static field, an inductor can store energy in a magnetic field, and release it so quickly it gives the appearance that it's actually more output power than your input power.
@@GrantsPassTVRepair Okay.I have charged caps with BEMF.I am not fooled by huge sparks or loud pops.I thought you had done a bench test with instruments and observation of experimental protocols.What I might do in the future is to reuse the microwave transformer I had used, and a true rms wattmeter on the input .Charge Cap for say 10 seconds or so with BEMF and without BEMF.Then measure the power leaving the cap.
in this book bemf induction is 10-12 more than at the input. www.rusphysics.ru/files/Ruchkin.Magnitoprovod.pdf
You can NOT harvest back EMF with capacitor. It won't ever work. It has to be a second battery. Actually you can, but it will never be OU.
This practically work with tiny 9V batteries in series up to 600V. Coil need to be at least big as yours. Probably much thinner wire and a lot more turns. Current is in miliamps.
This is a way to maintain voltage of batteries, not to charge them up. If voltage increase to much, you could use that little power, but is practically of no use. Your working part is actually a coil itself.
ReGen-X Stepper Motor - EV Regenerative Acceleration Motor Operation
Flyback Mode Process Harnessing Generator Action in a Motor: th-cam.com/video/jQyMdRMERaQ/w-d-xo.html
US Patent: patents.google.com/patent/US10291162B1/en
Most motor systems these days still do not use this bemf to reuse again from another capacitor or battery, so it's free if we are not using it in any motors in todays technology
Greg Stafford
Give me circuits to use bemf to tronetrickard@gmail.com
Remember that, even if Back EMF is not greater than the input, there is EMF also created ready to use . If you find right resonance you may get something interesting result. While you use back recovery diode, you are making half bridge Back emf at 3th rezonance. Remember, Coils and electricity bunces just like a springs, bouncing up and down with right resonance, Water drop on lake creates quantum waves on water or tizz sound from wine glass! While you absorbing that energy inefficiently, your resonance will be stopped..
I can barely understand anything you're saying.
@@GrantsPassTVRepair Then, I can simply say; I find efficient way to burn back emf of my Brushless motor, as soon as I switch on back emf brun setup, motor power consumption reduced to half and motor speed increase. While I am burning it, did make back emf of back emf force that help to the motor go forward rather than reverse that helps to gain more torque while refusing the dc power source energy! That's why power supply shows zero amps!
@@serkanozkani I'm guessing you are measuring your source amperes incorrectly, or measuring with an amp meter that's broken, wrong scale, or unable to deal with the switching pulses,
@@GrantsPassTVRepair switching speed might be the case. But however I have checked with different sensitive power analyzers. This is most sensitive one. 3 digit sensitivity. It might be below 3 digit power consumption.
@@serkanozkani It sounds like you need to use an oscilloscope with a current shunt to accurately measure the amperes your motor is consuming.
There is free energy in any coil your drive or pulse atvit resonant frequency. Back emf is free energy oy if harvested at resonance state of any given coil be it aircore or coreless inductor. Lern to attain resonance.
Well said👏👏👏👏👏👏👏
Give me circuits to extract emf
@@fapalakad665 search for bedini motor
It's not because we have to give it power and we can't harvest that efficiently
Only with coreless inductor? Why not with core? Please explain it, I’m a beginner in this.
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