Elden Ring - What's inside?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 8 ก.ย. 2024
- The Jar Innards are an excellent follow-through on the setup provided by the Living Jars. The visual language of seeing jars in an area had been set by the basegame, only to create an opportunity for a deeply unnerving reveal in the DLC once we finally got a peek inside.
Song used: Faron Woods - The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess OST
What all sorts of people went into the Hornsent's Jars isn't entirely obvious, but it seems possible it was more than just the Shamans themselves. Even the Shadows of other Hornsent can be found wailing within the Gaols, so it may be both horned folk who were condemned for breaking some law and those seen as impure, misconduct or not, simply because they lacked horns, with one ghost even insisting that the Jars are the sole reason for the Shamans to have ever existed in the first place.
there's a theory that claims what the Hornsent alchemists wanted to do was create a Saint through the combination of a Crucible blessed being (aka one of them) and a Numen, since the latter are apparently inherently related to night stuff. so combing two negatives, which makes sense with the themes of duality. you get the gist of it
Snakes coil like a spiral, seems like they might have been keen on putting some snakes in there. Shed snake skin near Bonny Village, then Marika happens to have a kid filled with snakes, eh?
@@imannam Makes me think Radagon might have been a hornsent that Marika fused with.
I think the best theory out there is that Marika was an artificially-created empyrean. She is what the Hornsent strived to achieve, 'rebirth'. It would make sense as the Hornsent are those of a lineage blessed by the crucible, many of them were condemned to jars, and some of Marikas offspring inherit crucible traits very similiar to the Hornsent. It would also explain how Marika 'betrayed' the Hornsent. They simply saw her as the thing they were trying to create, and made peace with her, but she waged war on them.
@@BaldorfBreakdowns Radagon is a zealot of Golden Order. I don't think he may be hornsent.
I think it is also important to note that the Living Jars of the Erdtree don't seem to seek out the living to add to themselves, instead they scavenge bodies, thus not condemning any more to the same fate of the Shamans.
Alexander challenges you so that he can add you to himself, but that might just be an exception
@@paxtonl1330Yeah; after a long time of knowing each other and knowing you're a " champion" like him who throws themselves at death at a regular basis. He also makes it a mutual thing. Frames it in honor, so to speak.
@@paxtonl1330Even in this case, Alexander will add the Tarnished only after he kills him, so technically still applies
@@paxtonl1330 he wants your DEAD BODY, not to stuff you alive.
The Jarwight Puppet description talks about someone who wanted to become jar innards, but was told he had to become a better warrior first. So the Jars are definitely taking living people for their innards and not just corpses, but it seems to be more consensual at least.
Just imagine the Jar in front of the coliseum in Caelid. Bro has an entire civilization inside
Maybe it was the jar that "cleaned up" Caelid after Malenia and Radahn fought in the shattering
Probably an entire town like... hmmm ... Bonnie village.
Or simply, gladiators who died fighting in the coliseum.
imagine the size of the jar maiden if theres a shaman inside😬
@@GonnaBeatchaBad that make sense, after all raddan vs malenia was the biggest battle, there's also the ones that died afterward, caelid is a radioactive wasteland where only rot can spread, caelid had a lot of cities and towns, like the city of Sellia which look like it used to be as big as Aeonia's swamp, and Caelem ruins and Forsaken ruins, 2 smaller towns, fort Gael also seem to have a town attacht to it
by all means it look like Caelid used to be a quite populated area, maybe as populated as altus
The way that Marika did everything in her power to transform perhaps one of the most horrific fates for her people into a position of honour and reverence is certainly one of the most sympathetic and human aspects of her character
And yet, a good question to pose is why would she continue with such a barbaric practice (supposedly turned into an honorable ritual) in a place where Death was entirely removed from natural order. Nobody can die, yet we stuff dead warriors into jars as an honorable death. Very logical indeed.
@@wolfshade124
" I can see how immortal essence exists as spirit under the Golden Order"
There's your answer. Everyone can die physically; all of them continue as spirit. Simple as.
@@wolfshade124i think minds of those stuffed in jars become one, making a new person, maybe that's why she continous with it, jars help the Erdtree from their free will and why would she stop other people from helping her
@@wolfshade124 Maybe warriors were only turned into jars if they were injured beyond recovery. I'd rather live as a jar than a head and half a mangled torso for eternity
@@wolfshade124 because spirits go back to the eardtree living abandoned corpses
Marika's reversal of the Jar symbology seems like a nod to Christianity. Romans crucified anyone for almost any reason, making the torturous and (as remarked by people of the time) morally degrading death on a cross to be the centerpiece of psychological operation to strike fear into anyone who dares to step out of line. Ironically, this instrument of death became the symbol of rebirth.
As someone who grew up in a mainly catholic country is easy to forget that you're looking at a instrument of gruesome torture.
Basically yes! Jars became a holy symbol, while they were meant to be a torture device. Even Marika's rune mirrors this. In origin the rune was a symbol used by the hornsent inquisitors but Marika turned it into a basin or a cup, associating it to a jar.
An astute comparison, I'd say!
That was my first thought too. I find it interesting how the Elden Ring blends western and eastern myths and fantasy tropes. Even Marika being a shaman has a historical context to it.
oh this goes even deeper with all the celtic imagery/architecture in the DLC and how it's connected to the hornsent
That’s a very cool observation that I never would have noticed on my own, neat!
Additionally, in the bottom of Messmer's castle, there's what looks like a medieval operating room where a bunch of jar innards wander. Some are mobile and fight you. Others are laying on beds. Someone pointed out that it looks like they were potentially trying to salvage the people subjected to this fate.
That room says so much about what Marika persevered through before Godwyn's death finally sent her over the edge.
They really let us believe she was some kind of monster for two years...
@@Jumungous she is a monster, but not just a monster, she is a person
@@francismayer3841 Person traumatized by the Hornset deciding to shove her people into jars and think it's funny.
@@TheWarmachine375 what are you talking about it was never stated Marika started or ordered to start making living jars
@@Laurent503-n5b I'm referring that the Hornset are the reason why Marika went on to the path of ascending into a god, made the Golden Order and sent Messmer to attack the Hornset in a vicious cycle of revenge.
The DLC really ended up telling more of Marika's story than Miquella's. They really fleshed out some of the motivations and made her more human in ways I did not expect.
In my eyes, Miquella was so desperate to make the world a "gentler place" that he shedded everything that made him the ideal replacement in the first place. And even so, he still retained so much wisdom that his discarded half St.Trina recognized that this was not the right way, and it was far too late to turn back. "Godhood would be Miquella's prison. A caged divinity." And even after you beat him, there's cut content of St.Trina saying "Thank you. We are finally free." Which personally I do consider some cut content canon, especially this line.
Its through telling this part of Marika's story that we can see how Miquella would likely end up; Miquella is like past!Marika
"Fleshed out" in the context of this video, lol
I think that's on purpose, because it tells us more about both of them at the same time. As we learn more about the atrocities of Marika's life (both received and given), we start to understand Miquella's motivations and reasoning. But the more we learn, the more we realize that what Miquella plans to do is actually worse, but they don't realize it. It shows how alike mother and son are, and how the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
good
Miquella has always been an overrated and overhyped mess of a character
meanwhile, everyone seemed content with just going "golden woman bad" and calling it a day
I think it's worth noting that there was one Bonnie village potentate that was horrified by his people's practice of jarring others. He wrote cookbooks about stuffing jars with anything but living people. I initially thought that he might've been the person who founded Jarburg, to redefine what a potentate was.
Horrified*
It’s a completely different meaning, fix your typo
@@oniongummy8969say please
@@tnoztnoz3547 but why do you assume Bonny Village jars came before Jarburg jars..? no one seems to have an answer to that. i'd guess the shadow realm jars are an imitation of the Golden Order jars.
@@seratoxin3825How are they an imitation? The Bonny jars came first, it's part of the reason why Marika decided to go full on genocidal on the Hornsent and turn the pratice from a horrifying process to one full of honour.
@@prophetoffuture6596 this is exactly what i'm saying. why are you assuming the Bonny jars came first. i can't find any evidence suggesting the jars existed while Marika was in the shadow realm. it looks to me like that happened much later, and Marila never knew anything about it.
I theorized a few weeks ago that the "melding" property of the shamans is probably what allowed godrick to perform his grafting, considering his lineage, and that both might be due to the split-self trait that marika and miquela have, which could be the actual thing that made the shamans unique. aside from their disconnection from the crucible I guess.
WAIT
YOU'RE RIGHT
This was my first thought. It also explains the god devouring serpent and Rykard integrating all those tarnished. "They share the same blood now, bound together as Family" indeed
I love that theory, it explains why the dragon is able to come alive when godrick just shoves it's neck stump into his arm stump
And can probably explain how Radagon is Marika.
It also might explain some of what's going on with Rykard/the serpent/the "family" they're amassing.
Backstab Hornsent. Dryleaf kick Hornsent into Abyssal Woods. Mandatory Hornsent vigor check. Slay Hornsent. Fallingstar Beast charge Hornsent off the cliff.
Perform elden beast's grab on hornsent. Lock hornsent in promised consort radahn's arena. Feed hornsent to the God-devouring serpent.
astel clone grab hornsent
Stir fry Hornsent in furnace golem
Waterfowl Hornsent
Take a shit in Hornsent's Scorpion Stew.
This revelation is quite...jarring.
My mouth was left ajarred after such a discovery.
reluctant +2
There it is. The big funny
Hehe hoooha. "Applaud this message?" Yis
Nice one
After Marika ascended as a god and formed her Golden Order, she sent Messmer to go for a walk to the Land of Shadow.
A very enthusiastic walk.
Messmer should’ve gave Rellana a jar canon. Bitches love canons.
literally what does this have to do with anything deadass
damn getting ratio'd and called humorless because i dont get every reference, tbh i thought this was one of those comments referencing something completely unrelated, maybe you guys take things too seriously.
@@AurosteelIt's a reference to Hellsing Abridged, Alucard taking a "walk"
Is this a helsing abridged reference?
This reference made my day lol
Should note that a "potentate" doesn't have anything to do with pots IRL and is just wordplay. An actual potentate is any kind of ruler with a level of authority that allows the law to bend to their will. The interpretation within the game lore might be that the potentates are powerful enough to bend the shaman and the jar ritual to their will for rebirth. Or it could just be a pun, who knows.
I didn't even recognize the pun at all. That's very morbid, considering what they were doing.
Considering this is the game with "Sold Jars of Fortune" I'm gonna lean towards the pun angle.
It's a pun, the Japanese is 大壺師, "great pot master/expert"
I figured they were just the leaders of the town.
I'd like to point out that multiple sources on the Japanese version of ER have said that the "become good" part of the Japanese dialogue is meant derogatorially. Basically it means "be a good little shrine maiden and get in the damn jar like you're supposed to."
Some people still believe that the hornsent tried to make a saint or a god but that wouldn't make sense is you stop to think about it.
Why would they want someone they see as lesser to become something more grand than themselves or important in their society? While yes, they were trying to "better" Marika's people, it's clearly nowhere as grand as most people think. They would go from something low to something the hornsent would accept and/or tolerate - whatever they consider "good people."
Still, it's clear the spirit said it degorative connotations. "Your only purpose in life as a shrine maiden is to be put in a jar," is a big yikes.
@@shaktosh524 I'm one who thinks Marika was reborn from being stuffed into a jar with various other contents. But I also think the Hornsent stumbled upon the correct combination or "formula" to birth Marika. The red and white mushrooms going into the jar hints at the alchemical process of creating the divine rebis which is what Marika and Radagon essentially are.
So I dont think they meant to create someone or something more powerful/holier than them but they did, accidentally. And through Marika's rebirth she was raised up in their society and allowed to teach about spread tree worship under hornsent rule before she finally amassed a large enough following to overthrow them and reach for Godhood/the Elden Ring with the Divine Gate.
@@ATC43The "betrayal" could make sense in that context too. "Sure we stuffed you into a jar with a slew of other flesh, but you came out all the better for it didn't you? We did a GOOD thing for you!'
I wish they had made it clearer, or just not used the word "saint." I think it's pretty clear that it was a form of punishment/rehabilitation. The line from the ghost in one of the gaols ("No, not the pot! I swear, I'll be a living saint!) reinforces the idea, I think. He's basically just saying "don't kill me, I promise I'll behave according to your moral standards. You really don't need to put me in the jar."
I‘ve always seen it as „saint“ just meaning they sacrifice themselves for the benefit of society.
They just made tree fertiliser. Becoming tree fertiliser instead of committing crimes is a „good deed“.
The use of the word “saint” in the innard meat description makes me think Leda’s “They were never saints, they just happened to be on the losing side of a war” line has a double meaning.
She's talking about the hornsent in that line though. I took it as, despite the hornsent seeming sympathetic because of the genocide committed against them by Marika, that doesn't mean they were blameless "good guys" either.
@@StillOnTrack Well yes, that's the textual meaning, that the hornsent being victims doesn't mean they were morally good. But by the same token, the shamans being victims doesn't necessarily mean they were morally good, either. We don't have enough lore about the shamans to know, but I think the idea here is that people are always people, for good or bad. Perpetuating the cycle of harm doesn't fix anything; the hornsent putting the shamans in jars didn't "purify" them, Messmer's crusade didn't absolve the hornsent, the hornsent and Romina laying curses on Marika's children didn't bring back the victims of her genocides, they all just led to revenge and further violence.
@alfalldoot6715 well of course, because tons of people are actively dying because of what the more harmful members of the hornsent are doing.
@@ViperhawkX exactly, what the hornsent people did to Marikas people fueled Marikas thirst for revenge and put her on the path she took, the genocide on the Hornsent people fueled the Hornsent NPC's thirst for revenge. It put it very clearly forward with his questline, we help him get his revenge on Messmer, but after Messmer has been killed, he decides to keep going, if he had the opportunity he would do the same to whoever he put the blame on, but we defeat him as he attacks us, stopping him from achieving it.
@@ViperhawkX this is like attack on titan with Marley and Subjects of Ymir
Imagine an alternate timeline of the Hornset not stuffing the people of Marika's village into the jars and Marika never went to the path of becoming a god in the first place.
Then Elden Ring might not be as depressing as it is.
maybe the god devouring serpent would have been the lord of the lands between if the golden order never received marika as a vessel
I like to think that timeline turns into bloodborne
Then there is no game in the first place
@@AydarBMSTU There would be. There'd just be drastic differences.
Marika didn't create the Elden Ring, she only took control of it. Had she not, then someone else would have.
Sure, the Shattering wouldn't happen either, so you wouldn't get Great Runes scattered throughout demi-god children. But on the other hand, other things could happen like Dung-Eaters world full of Omen curses.
How jarring...
This comment has some POTential...
Alright, get in the jar.
@@ZullietheWitch ._.
@@ZullietheWitchBro is already in the jar, he's been wearing it since launch
You're a hornsent under the helmet.
The statues of Marika we find everywhere, both in the land of Shadow and in the Lands Between, have her depicted with a large, billowing robe or cloak behind her. This really does mimic the same shape of the jar innards that crawl out of the jars in the gaols. Thought that was interesting.
"Stews of melded flesh" is how I've often described my cooking. I reserved the name in case I ever released a metal album.
Never thought i would learn about jar people being used as tree fertilizer, but here we are.
The tree guardians are likely their rebirth
I always wondered why so many sizeable jars were around the minor erd trees.
FromSoftware knows how to double down "Oh that's tragic? How cute, we're merely starting yet"
The fact that Miyazaki and his team was able to give an everyday item, a simple tool, like a jar/pot, such a prominent historical/cultural role in a fantasy setting as complex and grand as Eldenring, and manages to deeply connect it to to Marika, the most important character of the lore and story, is a testament to how talented they are as worldbuilders and writers.
George R.R. Martin took part of making Elden Ring lore as well.
Grr martin and fromsoft team erasure
@@TheWarmachine375 Yep
@@TheWarmachine375 true, sorry I was fanboying
@@ozsun9736 true, i'll make an edit
I went back to Jarburg cause it reminded me of happier times with the lil jar dude sitting by the stairs
A crucible by definition is a jar-like container used to melt substances together, so the Hornsent used crucibles to reach the Crucible
This is what I was thinking. I feel like the practice of melding flesh together like this is involved with the gate of divinity. The hornsent puts their access to the crucible at the center of their culture. I could see them doing something horrendous like creating a divine gateway at the top of a massive spiral structure (Enir Elim) to amass massive crucible energy or commune with higher beings. Just my guess since we have so little information on the gate of divinity.
Diallos also winds up becoming jar innards after being posthumously stuffed into Jar Bairn. He also drops a numen rune.
He told the tale of House Hoslow in blood, and the jars he saved honored him for it.
I'm glad this video clarifies the Warrior Jars are separate from the abominations in the Shadow Realm. Too many content creators and streamers were just saying "I don't like the jar people anymore" despite them only taking corpses and having life of their own. You can even see they have a different engraving on their lid.
Different lid pattern, different body color, lack of arms. It's obvious even at a glance they're completely different things.
@@TheCucuyo9779 apparently not obvious enough for a lot of people
@@matchanavi Right. I didnt pay attention so I never noticed them. I never liked the jar people anyway though.
One thing I find interesting about the Jar Innards is that the Gate of Divinity is similarly made of human corpses, which made me ponder if the former were meant to be some kind of prototype for the latter.
Perhaps the insistence that submitting to the Hornsent’s mutilations was shamankind’s moral obligation was just a more palatable lie the hornsent told themselves when in reality they just wanted to be gods and were fine with butchering innocent people to make it happen.
Sort of like how Manifest Destiny was used to dress up a violent conquest as a righteous holy mission.
It just hit me the reason potentates have "slick, slidy hands" is because they spend all their time working with clay to repair the jars!
I'm starting to lean a whole lot more to the "the-hornsent-got-what-they-deserved" angle the more I learn of the lore.
I'm surprised you never mentioned the hospital area in shadow keep that seems to be used for trying to heal or separate the shamans from inside the jars.
Oh wow, I never thought about that. In fact, I was confused why there were jar people in the shadow keep at all, but it makes perfect sense now that you mention it.
So the hornsent had this bizarre tradition of chopping down those they considered inferior or simply "evil", then stuffing them into jars for a twisted rebirth they considered "saint". This gives some context to the furnace golems; messmer returned the favor to the hornsent, a thousand times over.
That’s what I’ve been saying! The furnace golems seem designed to be Marika and Messmer’s own “jars” for the Hornsent!
It's interested to note that the Greatjar helmet talks about how the Shamans used to bury their dead in jars and pray to them to be reborn as "saints", that it was a manmade way of dealing with death and rebirth.
Maybe I'm misinterpreting that, but it seems to me that the jar-stuffing was originally a shaman burial rite that was taken by the hornsent as a form of torture against their enemies.
It would also explain what you wrote towards the end of the video, that Marika might find comfort in the way the jars are used in her Golden Order. Perhaps because that's how her people used the jars to begin with before the hornsent co-opted it.
I think the connection to fertilizing lesser erdtrees makes it clearly *different* than the original shaman tradition, but certainly closer in theme and intent to that than the cruelties of the Hornsent.
It seems symbolic of the crucible and the frenzied flame when all things are morphed back into one.
All things yearn to eternally converge again - The Golden Order
The description of the Greatjar does not say that. Stop lying
It doesn't say the shamans used to bury their dead in jars, however.
Also, I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that the "shaman" in this description isn't the same Japanese word as that used for the Marika's people. But for that I can't easily find proof.
@@jankbunky4279 correct. The correct translation would be "shrine maiden"
Imagine the reveal of walking into Consort Radahn's arena for the first time, and when the camera finally pans up to his face, it's covered by an enormous, overturned jar. Radahn was not revived with the remains of Mohg; Jar Bairn came along and ate his corpse after he set off in Alexander's footsteps.
I love that the player's version of Radahn's base game armor outright is missing a chunk of the chestplate. The exact same chunk that is in Alexander's shard talisman. Alexander got a chunk of Radahn into his jar, alongside other warriors.
@@daefaronOooh, thanks for pointing it out, that's a neat detail !
I’m imagining Radahn turning around and just saying “Hiya cos!” in Bairn’s voice 😂
@@daefaron Im gonna have to look for myself. I never noticed that, but sadly my Shard disappeared and I cant seem to find him again 2nd run.
i remember seeing a post somewhere that the symbols on the soreseals look very similar to the symbol on the shaman-flesh's forehead, which would be a neat detail if intentional.
It's insane how people still don't understand the jars in the DLC and the Jars in the base game are different. Hopefully this video helps spread that knowledge.
To be fair, if you're not the type of person that pays attention to the lore, it's an easy mistake to make.
I didn't even think about this and I'm into lore yes
Lands Between: Happy Jars (mostly)
Lands of Shadow: S U F F E R I N G
How is it insane? Fromsoft lore outside the main "story" is always cryptic, incomplete, and requires going out of your way in some capacity to find it. Elden Ring probably has the most lore out of any of their games, so most people don't know shit about what's going on beyond the shardbearers. There's nothing obvious in the DLC that tells you that the jars are any different this time around. They're still foes, but this time you get to also fight the meat inside the jar. Most players are going to interpret that as an extra mechanic added to the same thing, not a different thing.
Insane? Your overreacting. It’s easy to miss. Your wrong here in your opinion
Truly the most horrifying revelation of the DLC. Ugh.
Basic game: Funny creature. DLC: The start of all the mess.
That and Midra. I audibly WTF'd when I saw him do... the thing.
@@katerynaberidukhova2923 If the screen didn't turn black when "that" happened, I swear the DLC would've been banned in some countries.
Same with the Human Flies, let alone that they also have a village, with BIGGER but dead Human Flies rotting around.
@@katerynaberidukhova2923Honestly, the most horrifying part wasn't the "thing" but what appears after. I saw this, I was instantly thinking "Oh no, not THAT".
The gaols are built around ancient dynasty ruins. The giant coffins belong to the ancient dynasty, sport low res copies of elden john and are covered in serpents carvings. Putrescence is called Mud in japanese and the claymen of the ancient dynasty are called "mud men". mud/clay could technically be used in pottery to bind a jar together, to mix the material armoniously. If we are talking about living jars, and the "mud" is an immortal body who turns into putrescence instead of dying, maybe the shamans are all part of the ancient dynasty. Would explain why the jars have the same legs and arms of the claymen
Ive always been intrigued by the apparently inherent magical properties of the jars themselves, that they can mend or seemingly have a life cyle of their own (the pot kid talking as if he can someday grow to alexanders size implies they're capable of it)
@@babafrog1877 maybe it is the property of the shaman's bodies, basically their bodies are living mud or clay, kinda like albinaurics, and this characteristic is passed upon the jars. Would explain why the body in the shaman and bonny's village instead of mummifying basically petrified, like Marika inside the Erdtree, and why the black knives bleed tar instead of blood or why the hornsent use them in their trees other than main ingredient for the jars. The shamans are basically sentient living soil, so perfect for "divine trees".
@MitridatedCarbon yeah that aligns with my thoughts. I was analysing some details about the Hornsent themselves today and found a couple interesting things. The phrasing of "Sculpted Keepers" and the stony skin of the Divine Beast dancers always stuck out, but I noticed on the Horned Warrior armor that they actually have skin showing, and sure enough they're of a similar complexion. Makes sense since I hear the keepers are chosen from the ranks of the warriors, but its also a match for the specimens in the Shadowkeep, too. The label of being hornsent doesnt seem to carry any universal racial characteristics outside of just having horns, its a pretty diverse label. And finally theres the divine gate itself being made from corpses yet frozen in stone. Weird
@@babafrog1877 they look strangely similar to onyx/alabaster lords with horns and without gravitational powers. maybe that's why they worship the crucible horns and its gifts. Since they are non organic beings, receiving traits typical of organic beings is seen as a gift to this ancient culture. And those who refuse these gifts are considered inferior or literally considered as mud.
yeah, shaman's are part of the numen race. and we the big cities of numen are underground in the Nox area, And that area have a lot of claymens. I would guess that Numen/Nox/Shaman are some kind of claymen varriation and this give them the ability to meld harmoniously.
0:55 beautiful shot
Alexander's Ultimate Move
@@Khann_2102"And here comes IronFIST ALEXANDER WITH THE ERDTREE ITSELF!! STRAIGHT OUTTA NOWHERE!!!"
Treenis
@@mangekarp3241 need to ask @zulliethewitch if they could make a modded Alexander fight where he uses the entire erdtree as a weapon for us.
"Take a picture, this is going to look so silly"
When i learn pottery, ill make me an alexander-themed flowerpot
Alexander my beloved.
Unfortunate that Marikas jars were then hunted for their innards, making a sort of inverse on how it went with the hornscent jars, where they hunted heretics to then be placed in jars.
Comments: Jar puns.
My brain: "It's the IMPLICATION of danger."
I would say that the usage of the word saint for both cases is a case of the jar rebirth being aimed at a "moral" sainthood, achieving a life of virtue. As opposed to Trina being a "holy" saint of divine portents.
the fact that the reaction to the game saying "marika committed atrocities because she was once the pained underdog trying to make the world a better place, like many in the lands between are doing with the very world that she created" has largely been "ok so the hornsent started everything and it's all their fault" has been amusing. the message of elden ring is that the cycle of violence repeats itself, but only twice, the first guys are the real bad guys
I think the Hornsent are a testament to reckless pursuit. They wanted ascension, that was their motivation for atrocities. Well, they did it with Marika's and her whole story happens. She removes death. Desperately trying to hold everything in her Golden Order suspended and unchanging until it breaks. After the lands between is on the brink of dying out, all the big players are back to clawing for ascension it seems.
It really does not change the fact that Golden Order society is still better place to live than hornsent society.
Better omen under Golden Order, than shaman under hornsent rule.
In a way, they did. Their viewing of the Shamans as nothing more then fuel for purifying sinners led them to wiping out a people. Makes you wonder what would've been if Marika hadn't done what she did, after they took the last of the Shamans and had no more to make into jars.
It's interesting to think about. I suppose the dragons came before the hornsent, perhaps some sort of oppression from the dragons was what sparked this fascination with jarring people.
@@corpus1Well from what we see of Farum Azula the beastmen were heavily connected with dragons in what appears to be a servant/worshiper role. The beastmen are stated to have been granted intelligence by the greater will and the age of dragons apparently worshipped the greater will with its own god, elden lord, and elden ring as well. There is also a theory that Bael was basically a dragon omen and was persecuted by other dragons for it.
I like that Marika spared her people by turning their punishment into an honor.
Marika realised the necessity of combining the divine essence within living flesh as fertilizer for the erdtree, which manifests and spreads her power
She just changed the process into something less brutal
I know a theme of the dlc is cycles of violence, but I can't help but despise the Hornsent for subjecting the Shamans to that fate.
When they lament about being genocided and hate Marika and Messmer for it, I am like :
"Karma, b*tch"
The hornsent were a fanatic bunch that preferred persecuting, torturing, butchering and murdering the shamans for their own religious purposes rather than finding other ways to attain sainthood, but Marika and her Golden order are still absolutely genocidal maniacs that not only burned almost every single hornsent to a crisp, but also tortured and persecuted any trace of their existence in the lands between through the Omen and the demi humans, and that's without talking about what they did to the fire giants, the trolls, and pretty much any form of opposition to their murderous reign.
None of them brought justice to anything. The murder of countless innocents doesn't excuse or justify or make comprehensible the murder of even more innocents, and what happened with the Golden order and Marika is just the result of what happens when you let a profoundly broken human have just as much influence on the world as a god.
@@jacktheripper7935 You're gross. Incredible to watch someone exemplify the exact thing that Miyazaki is pointing out in these games about that kind of "justice" only leads to further cycles of violence. Seeing violence as retribution and deserved just breeds more violence. The DLC is literally about people like you and you don't even see it.
@@jacktheripper7935 You know genocide involves killing children, yeah?
hate the inquisitors and potentates, not the people as a whole
The Jar Innards made up of Marika's village people have no mouths and they must scream.
Besides the ones in Lamenter's Gaol. In that case, they scream as much as they damn well please.
ah i see what you did there
I see what you did there (havent reed the book but i will someday, cus it seems interesting)
They have a lot of mouths. And it wasn't one almighty entity who shoved them into jars. The reference is out of place here.
@@user-py4ek3vg3u so what?
I’m not saying marika was correct in her approach, but I understand.
Marika sending Messmer to the land of shadow after becoming a god is like when the coworker who gets picked on finally gets a promotion and fires the people who picked on them
Something about Twilight Princess’s music is so…comforting to me.
Indeed. It’s nice and relaxing.
I'm also pretty sure that the jar's purpose in the age of the golden order was the corpse wax they produced, as that is the main ingredient in the creation of gargoyles.
I was at first horrified by the idea that those things could be inside jars like Alexander, but I noticed almost immediately that the seal on the jars were different, so I was hoping it wasn't the same thing. Very glad it wasn't!
"haha funny pot people"
"oh.... no..."
thanks miyazaki
Literally my reaction the first time i found out about the jars Lore in the shaman village. Michael Zaky sure love making something funny and then making their Lore dark
I like the idea that Marika was, in a way, a created being. Like she was the only jar "saint" to successfully become an embodiment of the crucible.
The "connection" with Trina is a *long* stretch.
like their grab attack
Seriously, that the funny and weird jar guys were actually the products of a genocide of sort, and such a tragic history was behind them, is exactly why Miyazaki is a genius. George R.R. Martins is too, but that mark of madness seems straight up Miyazaki.
Babe wake up, new zullie post!!
Does the property of the flesh of the shamans explain grafting ? Godrick is a descendant of Queen Marika, and therefore, a descendant of the shamans. Maybe that's why he can graft different body parts to his own...
i mean, the grandmother in the shaman village seemed to literally be grafted to a tree-- even the word itself usually relates to plants. so probably
"Reborn into someone desirable" seems like the more accurate phrasing
Hopefully this video helps people realize that, no, Alexander does NOT have one of these nightmares inside of him
We even get his innards as an item.
The mark on their foreheads is the spitting image of Marika being crucified. It's like the Hornsents misinterpreted what making the pots would do by doing exactly what they thought it would do.
We now know what's inside them, I wish I didn't know now
The lands between jars are prepared in an honorable ritual, ensuring those who are put in are already dead or surely defeated at least
The land of shadow; the hornsent jars are vile echoes of the prior, shoving prisoners live into ceramic coffins to rot eternally
The latter is what true fear is made of
Therefore
Alexander is still pot-champ
We always knew, and this video is clearly separating the jars in the lands between with those in the land of shadows containing jar saints
I wanna have a looooong talk with the guy who thought it be a good idea to stuff people into jars regardless of where they’re from.
The shot of the jar holding up the Erdtree was actually really fucking good- Killer camera work as always!
Something I just thought of is that the "sainthood" being referred to could have some similarities to the Grace of Gold, or whatever the hornsent equivalent is. This, in turn, reminded me of the rebirths we see happening at the Haligtree, where graceless albinaurics journey all the way from Liurnia in order to be reborn into grace by Miquella. I'm also reminded of the Dungeater's quest to defile people so they are reborn cursed, which seems like an inversion of the process, taking those with grace and rebirthing them without.
Great editing as always, keep it up Zullie✨
It's interesting that the mushrooms in SotE note that they could be used for jar innards too.
You can also find the cookbooks of a potentate that escaped Bonnie Village, horrified with what he saw he was still obsessed with filling pots and found new ways to fill them without using living flesh, the mushrooms are probably one of the first things he tried because they look fleshy while not being actual flesh (in fact recipes for hefty pots use them).
this was a very jarring discovery
It’s kinda weird that Marika has such bad Hornsent trauma that she started a pogrom for all Crucible-marked in her empire, but one Greater Potentate apparently not only got out of the Shadowlands, he openly practiced and taught his Jar-necromancy enough that it became a semi-popular alternative to Tree Burial. Wait, Jarburg is in Liurnia, is that the reason she declared war on them twice?
Interestingly, there are no jars in Leyndell. Maybe the practice was done without her knowledge.
Because the Greater Potentate himself was AGAINST the practices of Bonnie Village, that's why he has cookbooks about putting anything but people into jars. One of his cookbooks even teaches how to start the Furnace Golems, implying he joined Messmer in his Crusade against the Hornsent. He helped Marika stop the practice.
Also, Jarburg is a village of warrior jars, which are filled with the bodies of warriors that they have scavenged (like Alexander). It's a completely different practice from the horrible torture the Hornsent inflicted on Marika's people.
Also can't help but think that small jars meant small people stuffed in them, namely children. They even have childlike movements when you think about it
If there was an interactable Jar Saint npc in a Jar Gaol, that would’ve added so much to the area. I think it’s a missed opportunity
Absence of this interaction tells us something about jarring ritual. Not a single one from hundreds of jars is okay.
@your_neko I think Marika barely qualifies as okay, so it makes sense.
@@tiacool7978 Well, she's clearly not okay too. She's nearly dead.
However, I can't remember her wearing a jar. And it would be hard to miss. There's only 1 direct interaction with her in game (a site of grace "Fractured Marika")
I also think the lamenters are what the hornsent wanted the living jars to become, seeing them full of horns finally reconnected to the crucible, however in a twisted and wrongful way
Look, I'm sorry Fromsoft but I'm not calling it the Shadowtree. It's the Scadooshtree and nothing can stop me from calling it thus.
So...there is either an extemely powerful being or an entire city's worth of people inside the Great Jar. Dang
Grafting always felt like an odd power for a descendant of Marika and Godwyn. After learning about the jars it makes sense where Godrick got this ability to attach others flesh to his own. Proves he really is a descendant of Marika, just one who uses the Shaman fleshmeld.
Just finished DLC last night. Now I can finally watch Zullie videos in peace.
Also these Living Jars and Flymen can stop showing in my game, thank you
This explains why marika was obsessed with separating the golden order to find all within it, this could be an attempt to get back the souls of her people. The ones hunting the jars are the perfumers (I think) and they have a sizeable presence in the capital, I believe under marika’s order they were sent out to get these jars and put them as fertiliser for the minor erdtrees. The flesh and the many souls within these jars would conjoin with the erdtree and then (I think) marika could SEPARATE the shamans from other people thus bringing back to life her people. I think she failed in this task ultimately though.
Ahh, glad you seem to share my thoughts on the Jars being a way to try and imitate the crucible in some way, that was my notion aswell. Pretty grim fate though. The toothed whip really makes it clear how gruesome the fate of a shaman was.
Alexander is still my favorite big boye
I think this jar obsession has roots in Japanese Sokushinbutsu - monks self-mummification in jars. Such mummies are revered as saints in Buddhism and monks did it voluntarily it to attain enlightnment.
In Elden Ring Hornsent put shamans with other people in jars trying to create man made gods basically. And they succeded because Marika took that divine hair lock thing from a shaman in a jar and obtained goodhood with it.
Same goes for regular jars in Lands Between - they were trying to emulate the ritual from Marika's home.
>be FromSoftware
>makes a joyfull NPC that becomes fan favorite
>Send gift to the Guy that is killing ur hardest boss while using the Jar head piece
>creates small jar enemies that are really cute
>engrain jar imagery into ur player minds as something cool that brings u joy
>wait 2 years
>give them some dark and disturbing lore
>makes players sad
THEY PLAYED US A DAAM FIDDLE
Just to say that I really love how often you use Twillight Princess OST in your videos, it had a perfect vibe !
Elden Ring could easily be called “The Tragedy of Queen Marika” To think she would have been whipped and stuffed into a jar had she not ascended to godhood, only then to put in motion the destruction of all she created. Damned if she did, damned if she didn’t.
She enjoyed a long and prosperous reign after conquering the Lands Between, and she may have done so forever - she is Queen Marika the Eternal - if Godwin hadn't been slain in the Night of Black Knives. I think that's the straw that broke the camel's back and led to her shattering the Elden Ring. She lost her faith that night, and decided that the Greater Will was no better a ruler than she was.
Another possible connection here is Metyr and her disconnection from the Greater Will. It's not shown how Marika came to ally herself with Metyr and the Fingers, but she did once declare her intent to "search the depths of the Golden Order." Maybe she realized that Metyr had been bullshitting her the entire time, and was determined to rule her own way until Night of the Black Knives took her (literal) golden child from her. Cue her destroying the Elden Ring out of despair.
FromSoft lore is fascinating - it's specific enough to hint at the truth, but vague enough to facilitate discussion.
My take is the jars of the light side are funerary. Meaning only the dead get stuffed into them. And was indeed an honor as it seems their essence would live on in the jars either as future protectors or as those graced to help the erd trees. But in the shadow lands it seems they are stuffed in while still alive...kinda a big difference
I wonder if the “Melding” property of the Shaman people is why Grafting took off
What I gather of the whole thing is that the Hornsent, who are obsessed with the concept of purity and "holiness", used Marika's clan as a "purging" mean.
Basically, they would take those guilty of impurity and throw them into a jar to become one with the "shamans", which would then purify them since they considered the shamans to be pure and connected to the spiritual world.
That's why the potentates wore their worm masks, to stay away impure thoughts that could lead them to perjure themselves while dominating the Shamans, which we know where all women...
Don't forget good citizens to report every Hornsent you see to the Messmer Crusade
3:33 love this interpretation of the difference between the jars in the base game and the jars in the dlc
One must grieve for Marika at times.
Then you remember what she did to her kids and the whole lands between and you realize oh shes just the worst
@@bajscast what, exactly, did she do to her kids?
@vyor8837 She threw two of them into a sewer to die. She locked Messmer in the shadow realm because of his fire powers and snake nature, endlessly trying to earn her pride, but she never had any intention of letting him out. She had children with her other self, an unnatural birth that resulted in malenia and miquella being stricken with different curses, malenias in particular turns her into a triple amputee who slowly corrupts everything around her. And Melina's purpose - as given to her by marika, her mother, is to burn herself to burn the tree. Also, while we don't know if she was aware it would happen, but by causing the shattering, she ensures the greater will would awaken the tarnished and send them after all the demigods, her or radagons children, to kill them and claim their runes
@@bajscast not to die, to be hidden
@@vyor8837 There's no love in the shunning grounds. Countless babies die down there - you can find omens cradling effigies in the shape of babies. Sure, mohg and morgott survived, but marika couldn't have known that
You know it's gonna be a slapper of a video when the Twilight Princess music hits LETS GOOOOO
Do you remember that shot from the trailer where Miquella removes the veil in a cutscene and Miyazaki himself talking about the veil seen in the game? Yeah, none of that can be seen in the final game; it seems a lot of stuff got cut or rewritten between the trailers and the final game.
First time watching a Fromsoft trailer?
I think the intention of the Hornsent is quite simple. The crucible is described as a vortex, a mixture of life. They try to replicate this characteristic by mixing people together into this capital "T" Thing.
I feel like marika and tadagon could have been the result of a "successful" Jar Saint process. The "eye" symbol on the shaman foreheads also looks like marika's rune + the rune of death.
The idea that Jarburg is Marika's way of righting the wrongs against her people explains why it is so uncharacteristically peaceful. Not to mention the flowers.
Why did they have to do the only upbeat npcs like this ;-;
They aren't the same. Living Jars like Alexander and Jar Bairn are modeled after the Shaman Jars, but their contents are different, specifically that their insides are already deceased, rather than alive like the Shaman Jars.
Thanks for the content, @ZullietheWitch , i enjoy the learning ER's lore without pointless yawning, and with nice music on the background
Of course the trees eat meat.
I have learned that all trees do this apparently, which I somehow did not know. This world wants to consume us all.
Always have.
I mean... All trees essentially do.
Put meat at the bottom of a tree and as it breaks down, the nutrients seep into the soil and the tree absorbs them.
The cycle continues.
Don't forget the Jar Talisman, which was before the dlc, said "Perhaps they were made to be better than their innards." which I always thought meant they were bad before or it could just be a comment on human nature.
Yeah, we also waiting 2 years for some more Lore about Godwyn, Melina, the Albunarics, the Crucible, and we ended with the Wish version of Lorian and Lothric.
I imagine Marika's hatred of omens are because of this.
But the thing is. The omen hunters mask states that it's a figure that appears in Omen's nightmares.
And it has similarities to a hornsent...
0:45 huh these are minor erdtrees?
nah, it's beside a minor erdtree, hence zulie showing off the jars next to them:p
It’s also interesting to see Messmer having some kind of lab or clinic in the Shadow Keep housing a bunch of the jar innards, either for study or possibly to find a way to relieve their suffering