Kel said eat the rich and then stubbornly refused to die after being killed, which I absolutely love. He’s a hero in my eyes. The difference between Kel and Rashek is: Rashek oppressed and enslaved an entire group of people, Kel hated the nobility and upper class because of that. That’s not the same in any way.
@@ZachTaylorReads while that is true, that was motivated more by their actions and corruption rather than, in Rashek's case, the Skaa's ethnicity. Similar to an extent, perhaps, but one is still clearly far worse than the other. One is punching up, the other down. Plus, Kel did save Elend, which I think shows room for growth, where Rashek continued to be an authoritarian tyrant for centuries.
@@Joenah5 I just call Kel chaotic neutral and leave it at that personally. Fantastic character, I think he is (mostly) trying to be good with mixed success. I do think SH was a VERY good look for him.
@@Joenah5 that’s why I love this kind of thing. The idea that there are two similar actions, one making someone a hero one making someone a villain, boiling down to motivation. It’s fascinating to me. And to continue being the devils advocate, Kelsiers motivation was personal revenge, while the lord rulers motivation was to save the world. Being pierced by metal for a thousand years I think messed him up a little tho
I feel like a major theme in Sanderson’s books is that anyone can do good. Kelsier has some bad personality traits, but you can’t deny he uses them to do good. In a way, I think he became his best self. Especially when he saved Elend because of Vin
With the Lord Ruler comparison, let's not forget that like Kelsier, the Lord Ruler also used every means at his disposal, distasteful or not, in the interests of survival at any cost. Ensuring that he survived, that the people could survive the damage he caused, ensuring the planet itself could survive through to round 2 with Ruin. Kelsier might have been the Survivor, but he learned the tenents of Survivorism from the Lord Ruler's example.
I love how in the first 5 seconds you gave a warning about which books you'll talk about I'll save your video and come back after reading era 2 & secret history
After reading the 4 books mentioned above...wow, absolutely brilliant and unexpected comeback from Kel, glad I didn't spoil it for myself, thanks again for the spoiler warning. My thoughts on the Kel Hero/Villain discussion: Kel might be the most heroic character in all of fantasy, I can't wrap my head around how so many people even have "Villain" as a possible description. Kel is realistic, kinda reminds me of Erwin smith from AOT. Both are leading powerless people against an all powerful force of evil, and when the deck is so rigged and you barely have any cards to play, it's not evil to go for slightly unheroic in order to have a slight fighting chance against absolute evil.
I started with stormlight and so I was introduced to Kelsier without even knowing it. And finding out he is the leader of the ghostbloods after reading his journey in mistborn was shocking. It made me question things a lot, are the ghostbloods right to tell Shalan to kill a Herald? Are they just using Roshar without a care for the people? Has he become more harsh and cruel after sooo many years? It is one of the most amazing bits of story Sanderson has written. He has taken a man seen as a hero and made us question what he wants more and more even as he has done so much good
Kelsier is my favorite character of the cosmere too! I always felt like I related to him, so... when Brando Sando revealed Kelsier could also be a villain that was bad news haha
I think that Kelsier is good in his eyes but is about to be evil to a lot of other peoples eyes. I believe that Kelsier is so angry that the shard gods have allowed people to suffer and he is going to become obsessed with taking over all of the shards and basically trying to become adonalsium himself. He is going to try to do this because he wants people not to suffer so he believes if he can become adonalsium then he can make people not suffer. However, I also think that if anyone gets in his way he will not be afraid to kill them off immediately. So he will become a bad guy in someways but to some people and in his own mind he will be a good guy.
And that kind of nuanced character is why I love the Cosmere. Nothing is clean cut good guys vs bad guys. It’s all grayish if you look at it from enough angles, and the Cosmere has like 500 viewpoints so yeah lol
I think it’s all POV. If you’re on Scadriel and you know about Odium, then there is no quarter really considered for Roshar. I think we could see him teaming up with a SA character in the back half or in Ghostbloods.
I think people who defend him till the end have never known someone like him. as far as the he did save El yeah but he needed Vin to do what he could not. so i question the goodness of his heart there also.
Kelsier is my hero in the books, and id point something out. he could have tried to get revenge in many many ways. But he chose to find a way that would hopefully make the world a better place. I agree. He is broken AF. But he brought something amazing to sooo many. hope. i think Saze said it best when Vin brought up that kel wasnt a prophet, he was jsut a normal man, and Saze said most usually are. He was a broken man, working in a broken world, and just trying to make it better in the only way he know how. Also, I appreciate your even take on the lord ruler, i agree with you, he was also doing the best he could. in a broken world
Please don't Kill me for saying it Kelsier fans, but I think he IS a villain or pretty close to being one. It's like they said in the Badman movies: You either die a Hero or live long enough to see yourself become a villain. so Kelsier didn't even start as a Hero he was more of an Anti-Hero it was foremost his interactions with Vin that changed him. Let's not forget while his goals seemed "good" he wanted to Achieve them by Killing a lot of people, and he killed a lot of nobles. And while those were put on display as evil it's never that easy. Like Marsh said" Did you think about their families" when Kelsier said it's okay to kill Skaa if they work for nobels. Things are pretty grey in Mistborn, to begin with so I wouldn't describe Kelsier in the first book as either Hero or villain.... he was the Protagonist together with Vin. but after Mistborn 1 he fell more and more into his bad habits he lost his moral compass and became seemingly more ruthless even had sort of a breakdown with his last two friends/family Marsh and Sazead seemingly plotting to "kill harmony if needed" not that Sazed fairs that much better since he seems to be in a permanent state of inability to do anything...but he did become the leader of a cashmere white Organization that doesn't do that much good thing apparently. And he does this with his old marking" for the greater good". I think he DOES care for his world but he is losing it slowly but surely, we did see a lot of glimpses of highly invested people breaking over time. Like most Shards or the Herolds, this will probably be his future too if he doesn't get it together again. I think Kelsier will play a big role in the last parts of the Cosmere book maybe he will turn the problems on Scadriel around to make it a Fortress that will survive the big troubles when Automy or Odium start to make their moves.
After reading Secret History, I don't think Kelsier even truly understands himself. He just does what he thinks is right, whether he's correct or not, and 'right' to him can also include stuff he wants. He's a broken man trying to achieve his goals, he's not a particularly altruistic guy, but that doesn't mean that he doesn't have good qualities. He's a paradox of selfishness and love, and he himself doesn't really know where it will end.
I think it’s all POV. If you’re on Scadriel and you know about Odium, then there is no quarter really considered for Roshar. I think we could see him teaming up with a SA character in the back half or in Ghostbloods. Also as an American, after last week, Kelsier’s murder fest of the greediest and most corrupt is a check in the hero box for me.
Pump the brakes. Kelsier is very different from TLR. One 3 main points, Kelsier plans never 1) Mutilated and oppressed his own people to keep a unique position/set of powers, 2) He didn't genetically alter one race of power in an attempt to make them a slave class, and 3) This is a big one, he didn't create a system where oppression and assault (both regular and sexual) was totally ok. And he had the power to do each of those things, at least on a smaller scale. 1) He could have killed Vin to be the only Skaa mistborn. 2) Instead of killing nobles he could have captured and enslaved them. 3) He could have used future oppression of nobles as a selling point and instead focused on freeing the Skaa. The worst part is that TLR did all of these things totally separate from any good he was trying to do. I don't think Kel would do any of those things, but if he did it would absolutely come from trying to do something good, not from a personal separate desire.
Hi! I'm also a fantasy reader. I have a request\suggestion to make. I think you would love the monarch : a prince out of time by J McCoy. I won't say that its an absolute masterpiece of writing but what is absolutly stunning about this novel, for me , is its characters- especially the MC- who I think you would extremely like if you loved kelsier. The scenes and the emotions are just ....enough to leave you gapping at how the author successfuly pulled off doing such a thing to a character and I have reread this series twice within one month, though I warn you, some scenes will just leave you gapping. And screaming.(you will discover what kind) I don't know if you will read it , but if you do please to do share your opinion . Its not a perfect book but somehow , its in my treasured ones. I'll let you discover the brutality of this book on your own. Please do give it a look.
It’s not debatable. Kel is chaotic good. The problem is people tend to judge him based off their own lives and worlds. Instead place yourself in his shoes.
No , it was not about revenge. Just because he plotted and used people doesn't automatically make it a revenge story. All freedom fighters who fight a very established dictators , are already ready for their death . Just manipulating people and making stories to inspire your people is not a bad thing. You are painting him as a bad person. He did what a good freedom fighter and leader would do. He made sure that his rebellion continued even if he died. How can you paint someone who was ready to die for his cause a villain. He did not know that he will "Live" through the whole thing somehow. while rashek is not given much of a background. his motivations are not made clear in the story. so comparing them is not good. He just wanted to maintain order . And that is all . And his methods were very bad. He was a villain because he did things without thinking about it. Brandon has tried to give him a good side in the end. But it is not at all convincing. Its just his ego speaking. There is nothing that proves that he was a good person. He betrayed his own people , made numerous people slaves. converted many into fiends. made a system where a majority of people suffered for luxuries of few. I do not see where are all the good intentions you are talking about.
I appreciate that this is not scripted, but it was pretty slow and there was a lot of redundant explanation. It was a much better watch at 1.5x speed. Otherwise a good video.
Hes one of my least favorite cosmere characters. Due to the fact he died in book 1, and none of the characters seemed to be able no not mention him every sentence for the remainder of the series. In secret history he just nonchalantly is the secret savior of the planet. IMO hes just not that interesting, nothing in his character ark makes him relateable or sympathetic. his actions are interesting but feel fake, it feels like im reading a made up persona not a real person. Which compared vin and sazed, it feels real jarring. but i mean i guess he is insane.
"Wasing the liking the not but having the liking he was "
Well said
Kel said eat the rich and then stubbornly refused to die after being killed, which I absolutely love. He’s a hero in my eyes.
The difference between Kel and Rashek is: Rashek oppressed and enslaved an entire group of people, Kel hated the nobility and upper class because of that. That’s not the same in any way.
Well Kel was willing to murder an entire class of people, nobles, he just didn’t get the chance 🤷♂️
@@ZachTaylorReads while that is true, that was motivated more by their actions and corruption rather than, in Rashek's case, the Skaa's ethnicity. Similar to an extent, perhaps, but one is still clearly far worse than the other. One is punching up, the other down. Plus, Kel did save Elend, which I think shows room for growth, where Rashek continued to be an authoritarian tyrant for centuries.
@@Joenah5 I just call Kel chaotic neutral and leave it at that personally. Fantastic character, I think he is (mostly) trying to be good with mixed success. I do think SH was a VERY good look for him.
@@Joenah5 that’s why I love this kind of thing. The idea that there are two similar actions, one making someone a hero one making someone a villain, boiling down to motivation. It’s fascinating to me. And to continue being the devils advocate, Kelsiers motivation was personal revenge, while the lord rulers motivation was to save the world. Being pierced by metal for a thousand years I think messed him up a little tho
@@ZachTaylorReads Kelsier's motivation was *also* to prevent anyone else from suffering like he did.
I feel like a major theme in Sanderson’s books is that anyone can do good. Kelsier has some bad personality traits, but you can’t deny he uses them to do good.
In a way, I think he became his best self. Especially when he saved Elend because of Vin
With the Lord Ruler comparison, let's not forget that like Kelsier, the Lord Ruler also used every means at his disposal, distasteful or not, in the interests of survival at any cost. Ensuring that he survived, that the people could survive the damage he caused, ensuring the planet itself could survive through to round 2 with Ruin. Kelsier might have been the Survivor, but he learned the tenents of Survivorism from the Lord Ruler's example.
Exactly! They are so much more alike than different
I love how in the first 5 seconds you gave a warning about which books you'll talk about
I'll save your video and come back after reading era 2 & secret history
After reading the 4 books mentioned above...wow, absolutely brilliant and unexpected comeback from Kel, glad I didn't spoil it for myself, thanks again for the spoiler warning.
My thoughts on the Kel Hero/Villain discussion: Kel might be the most heroic character in all of fantasy, I can't wrap my head around how so many people even have "Villain" as a possible description.
Kel is realistic, kinda reminds me of Erwin smith from AOT. Both are leading powerless people against an all powerful force of evil, and when the deck is so rigged and you barely have any cards to play, it's not evil to go for slightly unheroic in order to have a slight fighting chance against absolute evil.
I started with stormlight and so I was introduced to Kelsier without even knowing it. And finding out he is the leader of the ghostbloods after reading his journey in mistborn was shocking. It made me question things a lot, are the ghostbloods right to tell Shalan to kill a Herald? Are they just using Roshar without a care for the people? Has he become more harsh and cruel after sooo many years?
It is one of the most amazing bits of story Sanderson has written. He has taken a man seen as a hero and made us question what he wants more and more even as he has done so much good
Kelsier is my favorite character of the cosmere too! I always felt like I related to him, so... when Brando Sando revealed Kelsier could also be a villain that was bad news haha
I know you can't really relate the two, but I put him up there with Lightsong the brave for favorite cosmere characters
Reluctant do-gooders, I see what you like
I think that Kelsier is good in his eyes but is about to be evil to a lot of other peoples eyes. I believe that Kelsier is so angry that the shard gods have allowed people to suffer and he is going to become obsessed with taking over all of the shards and basically trying to become adonalsium himself. He is going to try to do this because he wants people not to suffer so he believes if he can become adonalsium then he can make people not suffer. However, I also think that if anyone gets in his way he will not be afraid to kill them off immediately. So he will become a bad guy in someways but to some people and in his own mind he will be a good guy.
And that kind of nuanced character is why I love the Cosmere. Nothing is clean cut good guys vs bad guys. It’s all grayish if you look at it from enough angles, and the Cosmere has like 500 viewpoints so yeah lol
Every man is a hero in his own story
I think it’s all POV. If you’re on Scadriel and you know about Odium, then there is no quarter really considered for Roshar. I think we could see him teaming up with a SA character in the back half or in Ghostbloods.
Kelsier is a hero when it suites him to be one... I think for him, its the destination not the journey that matters.
Alternatively, is he a hero? Yes. Is he a villain? Yes.
I think people who defend him till the end have never known someone like him. as far as the he did save El yeah but he needed Vin to do what he could not. so i question the goodness of his heart there also.
Kelsier is my hero in the books, and id point something out. he could have tried to get revenge in many many ways. But he chose to find a way that would hopefully make the world a better place. I agree. He is broken AF. But he brought something amazing to sooo many. hope. i think Saze said it best when Vin brought up that kel wasnt a prophet, he was jsut a normal man, and Saze said most usually are. He was a broken man, working in a broken world, and just trying to make it better in the only way he know how. Also, I appreciate your even take on the lord ruler, i agree with you, he was also doing the best he could. in a broken world
That last comparison was well worth it.
I love kelsier too
Charismatic, competent, and crazy. What’s not to love
Please don't Kill me for saying it Kelsier fans, but I think he IS a villain or pretty close to being one. It's like they said in the Badman movies: You either die a Hero or live long enough to see yourself become a villain.
so Kelsier didn't even start as a Hero he was more of an Anti-Hero it was foremost his interactions with Vin that changed him. Let's not forget while his goals seemed "good" he wanted to Achieve them by Killing a lot of people, and he killed a lot of nobles. And while those were put on display as evil it's never that easy. Like Marsh said" Did you think about their families" when Kelsier said it's okay to kill Skaa if they work for nobels. Things are pretty grey in Mistborn, to begin with so I wouldn't describe Kelsier in the first book as either Hero or villain.... he was the Protagonist together with Vin.
but after Mistborn 1 he fell more and more into his bad habits he lost his moral compass and became seemingly more ruthless even had sort of a breakdown with his last two friends/family Marsh and Sazead seemingly plotting to "kill harmony if needed" not that Sazed fairs that much better since he seems to be in a permanent state of inability to do anything...but he did become the leader of a cashmere white Organization that doesn't do that much good thing apparently. And he does this with his old marking" for the greater good". I think he DOES care for his world but he is losing it slowly but surely, we did see a lot of glimpses of highly invested people breaking over time. Like most Shards or the Herolds, this will probably be his future too if he doesn't get it together again.
I think Kelsier will play a big role in the last parts of the Cosmere book maybe he will turn the problems on Scadriel around to make it a Fortress that will survive the big troubles when Automy or Odium start to make their moves.
After reading Secret History, I don't think Kelsier even truly understands himself. He just does what he thinks is right, whether he's correct or not, and 'right' to him can also include stuff he wants. He's a broken man trying to achieve his goals, he's not a particularly altruistic guy, but that doesn't mean that he doesn't have good qualities. He's a paradox of selfishness and love, and he himself doesn't really know where it will end.
I think it’s all POV. If you’re on Scadriel and you know about Odium, then there is no quarter really considered for Roshar. I think we could see him teaming up with a SA character in the back half or in Ghostbloods.
Also as an American, after last week, Kelsier’s murder fest of the greediest and most corrupt is a check in the hero box for me.
Lopen>
Pump the brakes. Kelsier is very different from TLR. One 3 main points, Kelsier plans never 1) Mutilated and oppressed his own people to keep a unique position/set of powers, 2) He didn't genetically alter one race of power in an attempt to make them a slave class, and 3) This is a big one, he didn't create a system where oppression and assault (both regular and sexual) was totally ok. And he had the power to do each of those things, at least on a smaller scale. 1) He could have killed Vin to be the only Skaa mistborn. 2) Instead of killing nobles he could have captured and enslaved them. 3) He could have used future oppression of nobles as a selling point and instead focused on freeing the Skaa. The worst part is that TLR did all of these things totally separate from any good he was trying to do. I don't think Kel would do any of those things, but if he did it would absolutely come from trying to do something good, not from a personal separate desire.
Hi! I'm also a fantasy reader. I have a request\suggestion to make.
I think you would love the monarch : a prince out of time by J McCoy. I won't say that its an absolute masterpiece of writing but what is absolutly stunning about this novel, for me , is its characters- especially the MC- who I think you would extremely like if you loved kelsier. The scenes and the emotions are just ....enough to leave you gapping at how the author successfuly pulled off doing such a thing to a character and I have reread this series twice within one month, though I warn you, some scenes will just leave you gapping. And screaming.(you will discover what kind) I don't know if you will read it , but if you do please to do share your opinion . Its not a perfect book but somehow , its in my treasured ones. I'll let you discover the brutality of this book on your own. Please do give it a look.
You know how to sell me on a book! That sounds amazing! I can’t wait to give it a try. Give me emotional trauma and deep characters any day
It’s not debatable. Kel is chaotic good. The problem is people tend to judge him based off their own lives and worlds. Instead place yourself in his shoes.
im about to finish the first mistborn book and wtf kelsier is hero 😑
Personally, when reading mistborn, I view him as a hero. When reading the stormlight archives… he’s a villain.
He is an anti hero. He is a good bad guy. Everything he dose is breaking the law, but the laws should be broken.
kelsier didn't have heroic motivations, he had moral justifications used to wage his own personal war.
There’s always another secret……..
My favorite line ever
No , it was not about revenge. Just because he plotted and used people doesn't automatically make it a revenge story. All freedom fighters who fight a very established dictators , are already ready for their death . Just manipulating people and making stories to inspire your people is not a bad thing. You are painting him as a bad person. He did what a good freedom fighter and leader would do. He made sure that his rebellion continued even if he died. How can you paint someone who was ready to die for his cause a villain. He did not know that he will "Live" through the whole thing somehow.
while rashek is not given much of a background. his motivations are not made clear in the story. so comparing them is not good. He just wanted to maintain order . And that is all . And his methods were very bad. He was a villain because he did things without thinking about it. Brandon has tried to give him a good side in the end. But it is not at all convincing. Its just his ego speaking. There is nothing that proves that he was a good person. He betrayed his own people , made numerous people slaves. converted many into fiends. made a system where a majority of people suffered for luxuries of few. I do not see where are all the good intentions you are talking about.
of course not.
I appreciate that this is not scripted, but it was pretty slow and there was a lot of redundant explanation. It was a much better watch at 1.5x speed. Otherwise a good video.
Hes one of my least favorite cosmere characters. Due to the fact he died in book 1, and none of the characters seemed to be able no not mention him every sentence for the remainder of the series.
In secret history he just nonchalantly is the secret savior of the planet.
IMO hes just not that interesting, nothing in his character ark makes him relateable or sympathetic. his actions are interesting but feel fake, it feels like im reading a made up persona not a real person. Which compared vin and sazed, it feels real jarring. but i mean i guess he is insane.
Hey Zach check your discord private messages.