True my way to decide if the car needs it is to see if the pp limit goes up or down when i apply it if it stays the same it wont make much diference but if the pp drops it might create understeer but thats just the tip of the iceberg because the rollcage also increses rigidity it takes some tries to find the right combo
I was always dubious that it did anything because in my mind the cars are just one rigid polygon like in other games. Kudos to PD for incorporating body flex
People forget that NASCAR has rollcages, and rollcages stiffen the car up. Civilian version you get in GT was never supposed to go on an oval unmodified, so it starts to bounce around without rigidity upgrades.
Yup, that is why I have two one I use without the body rigidity (I have managed to drive that boat like a speedboat) and one that could obliterate a ZL1 in Nascar and a 911 RS (901) in the Nür.
Yup, also, i can be wrong, but i wouldn't be surprised if Polyphony Digital used recently collected data for body rigidity for older cars. So they use the current rigidity of 40+ Yo race cars, who likely have lost most if not all their original rigidity through years of hard use and normal metal fatigue. The Daytona/Superbird being such extreme cars for their time mean that the lost rigidity is much more apparent and detrimental than on a Honda S800 for example.
its kind of funny that the devs will make old cars wobbly (as they were in real life), but will leave in rear alignment settings for cars that came with a solid rear axle
I haven't played this game, but I work on old cars. Rear alignment is possible with a solid rear axle. It just involves bending the axle housing, usually with a hydraulic jack. I do think it is unfortunate that body rigidity and suspension stiffness are grouped to-gether in this simulation (in real life, I like a car with a rigid body and soft springs due to the ride quality.) Chrysler products are usually quite rigid compared to Fords, as they adopted a unibody across the lineup early on.
Not to surprised really as Superbirds had great power to weight ratios, and surprisingly high torque even by modern standards. Also, people are forgetting that Superbirds got banned from NASCAR because it was way to fast, compared to it's competition.
I guess the important thing to say is that the Superbird, on the racetrack of yore, was a heavily modified car with a cage in it (makes the whole chassis stiffer) using every trick NASCAR would allow, and some it didn't, while some of the smartest mechanics to ever live tweaked the car for the high speed oval. But the version the game gives you seems to be the civilian version of a 1960s road car, with a full interior, none of the modifications, and it would appear a very floppy chassis with a solid rear axle and 1960s suspension technology. This car knew it was going on the American highway, at maybe 100mph if the cops aren't looking, for a brief period, in an arrow straight line. Go figure, it's not ready for serious racing without modification.
is hilarious as it is sad that people see the street superbird and go "yeah this is exactly the same as the race version" like my brother in christ they aren't the same car at all
I've gone more than 150mph in old 1960's street version mopars. One an old 1969 Coronet 440 and another a 1966 New Yorker more highly modified. The Coronet was doing what I would call seesawing at high speed. Kind of rolling side to side and the steering was very light. I went by about nine Mass state police clustered in the highway center. If any came out to play I never saw them in my rearview mirror. The New Yorker had a polygraphite front suspension and a 440 built for me by someone that built Nascar Mopar engines in the 1960's and was still building offshore powerboat race engines. I lightened the New Yorker a lot. Took out the dash, AC, and heater, removed the rear window regulators and locked them closed, all the seats and put in two Dodge Omni buckets for seating. I put in a custom aluminum dash with digital gauges. It actually was far better handling than the Coronet. I ran that to 150 or more many times. The thing about old Mopars is you had to know how to drive them! You didn't know how to drive them you could die real easy. To me though they were far better at high speeds than any Ford or Chevy I drove of 1960's vintage. Bias ply tires weren't exactly great for handling but would leave the best smoke shows.
Gotta love it when some stubborn person whips out the ol', "Erm, you're clearly bought by a company." Excuse when it's just a skill issue on their part lmao
@viruscaught3826 it's not passion, it's just fanboyism. It's a major issue with GT7's fanbase, has been for awhile now and is part of why so many have abandoned the franchise. The game has clear problems and issues that remain un-addressed but the remaining fanbase will simply screech "ackshully the game does this" when it doesn't, or the classic "but forza! But grid!" This youtuber just exemplifies it. This is literally a video about "no, The physics are actually fine you're just wrong" where he ***adjusts the toe and camber on a solid axle***. Same as his other videos where he speeds up/slows his footage or pulls punches to make GT look better than it is. There's another youtuber who literally writes AI music about GT VS Forza. No, the GT fanbase isn't passion. It's fanboyism. Passion would be something like the Saints Row fanbase, where they actually fought for what they wanted. This is just blind sony glazing, which is an ever increasing problem in the games industry
@boredguy2935 some of the cars in GT7 do handle like the Plymouth Superbird stock and just simply installing the Body rigidity upgrade significantly improved the stability and handling, I know this because I've tested myself.
@@turnipgaming9747 I've tested it myself as well. In the original post he was referencing, the issue was that the car was completely fucked stock There are numerous GT tuners who have pointed out something was off with its physics long ago.
To be fair it's basically a Dodge Charger with a big wing and sharp nose if you dumb it down to the core. Handles a bit better than your regular Charger R/T but don't expect it to run tight rings around a Lotus Esprit
Does look kinda fun though. Seeing it glide through the corners at those speeds, bouncing all the way. The idea of pushing to the limit an old car with that sort of roughness or lack of refinement to it's design would be appealing to some. So in that respect it does look fun lol.
@@FLAMABBLE I'm correlating it to a period correct(ish) example (1970s). If period correctness is not in my mood an Exige or Elise would work just as well to demonstrate comparison, but since it's not the case, I put the Esprit as a comparison (1976, compared to Superbird which is made in 1970. Course I can also use the Elan or Europa instead which is even more period correct but I bend my own rules sometimes, I know, I'm a scrutinizable pillock)
You just have to appreciate how people who do not understand the game well enough to feel the body roll of a car on the limit and do not understand how to tune will go and call you a paid shill. There is a vocal minority of players who want everything for free and no challenge to be too difficult and they need to be shamed. Good video!
The unfortunate reality is that there's a lot of people who just assume that if something isn't perfect for them, there's some sort of conspiracy going on.
Please make more videos exploring how to redeem poorly-handling cars in GT games. Racing game fans rarely discuss min/maxing because going off-meta just isn’t rewarding with massive car lists and seldom need for a specialized build. It’s why I love FailRace’s Horizon videos so much - their arbitrary race requirements show love to cars you never actually see in lobbies, and sometimes someone strikes gold with an insanely potent build. I really think this could be a great niche for this channel.
Which is ironic, given that Gran Turismo and Polyphony Digital always had an unmatched love for cars in general and an absurd amount of customization, ever since the 2000's, to the point of including all the worst and most commin roads cars one could find, like a 90's Ford Ka. It is not for racing, and you are not expected to use them, but they are there solely because they are cars people actually drive around in. It is the vehicle selection of Assetto Corsa, before Assetto Corsa. But perhaps it is the customization itself that allows people to think it is all about minmaxing. I admit, I used to do the same. When the dial for spring rates is in decimals, should I go for multiples of 0.5 (4.5, 6.0...) or actually nail it down (4.3, 6.2...)? How much downforce? How much differential lock? How much toe and camber? You see in forums entire breakdowns of every car, down to fractions of decimals. It is all absurd as well.
@@Maximus20778At what point did they suggest only putting on a rear spoiler/wing is crazy customization? The moment you add anything to the stock vehicle, it's customized. Most customize with tires, wheels/wheel diameter/width, wide body(if applicable), engine tuning, air, forced induction, gear box, gear ratio, weight distribution, weight savings and the list goes on. How did you come to the conclusion of a wing is confusing, do you even play this game at all?
There is one massive oversight on the part of PD when it comes to old car like this, and the pickup trucks. They have solid axles in the rear. They do not have adjustable toe or camber in the rear. For some reason, PD chose to allow us to make impossible adjustments when they should've either blocked them for an easy solution, or even provided the various adjustments that adjustable solid axle setups allow, none of which still include camber or toe mind you. So yes this car and others like it are simply simulated wrong, and that's largely why they have quirky handling.
@@Agent-mb1xx the fuck are you on about the Daytona and the Judge both came with 4 speed manuals. Automatic slushboxes were available but not widely used.
I don't play GT7 and I'm a total novice at racing games but from a general gamer and car enthusiast perspective, this was a pretty fun video. It's something that could basically never exist, a hemi plymouth superbird worth a bazillion dollars with wild track focused modifications, racing at the 10/10 limit, no less at the ring. Great video and impressive driving :)
Wow, I wasn't expecting that result. I'll have to try this out next time the Superbird Weekly Race comes around. As for future video ideas - You seem to have a fantastic understanding of the physics in GT7, so it might be interesting to see some sort of comparisons between how the physics change from their current workings to the new physics that are coming in the next update on July 25 once that is available.
If you notice on that Daytona wind tunnel test, they laid out the rear wing just about flat, then did the test. Those wings (both Daytona and Superbird) IRL can be adjusted factory stock. If they had given it a bit of angle, there would be a significant difference to the "new" Charger duck tail.
@@kyle8952 Could be, I'm not sure. I just noticed it in the clip provided here. Wouldn't surprise me that Stellantis would "nerf" an old car to make a new one look better.
Honestly, the Daytonas and Superbirds that were actually sold were really just a slightly faster and gripper Charger/Roadrunner. Underneath they're basically identical to their base cars, i think people forget that these cars only existed so they could be modified further for NASCAR and attribute the Stock Cars performance to the street car also
Totally, the Superbirds were a RoadRunner with a different front bumper and a big wing, that's it. Also, there's a video of an old man that explained how you could notice if a Charger Daytona and a Superbird are original, and it's that the Charger Daytona has real fender vents/scoops and the Superbird didn't. The car is amazing but it was made like you said just because it was a regulation and at that time it didn't even sell.
there are issues with live axel track and thrust angles under load, its why any serious live axel car has a panhard bar or watts links. Even with those items you can run into some silly issues. When racing my 1985 RX-7 GSL-SE due to the fact the watts links is offset to the passenger side of the axel you can get travel bind on that side under extreme compression. so if I hit a large bump or do hard corner loads it can really throw the car off because the right side compression bottoms out before the left.
take it to the extreme, if one side has shorter links than the other side then as the axle bumps the side with shorter links will pull forward more, creating a bump steer effect. That's a simplified example, but lots of cases where the axle will pivot. This is easily seen in rock crawlers where there is so much suspension travel you can easily see the rear axle angling to one side.
i like how the people where so mad that he fixed the super bird on the oval(a track it was built for originally) then told him to take it on the hardest track ever built. classic
A tale as old as time. It's always "It's someone or something else's fault", never "I suck at how I play the game, what can I do different". These same people will never be remembered. And I believe that haunts them
people dont realize that downforce is a collective value rather than wing/splitter focused. the reason why modern dodge charger has similar downforce with just small oem rear lip is because modern cars have way better roof/window shape and more well positioned exhaust, axles, and other underbody parts compared to rougher 60s dodge charger underside. So if that wing being put in modern charger, the downforce may be way higher than both cars (oem modern charger and 60s daytona). talking about irl. but yeah talking about gt7, i have no idea how the downforce works tho.
@@aleks_jonesdownforce is the result of all aerodynamic pressures acting on the panels of a car pulling/ and or pushing down on a car. Ground effects is just an aerodynamic device to either create lower underbody pressure to pull the car down/ and or reduce drag. I dont understand your comment saying these 2 intertwined things are different
So, I am gonna say I that I have earned more than 1B in credits in GT7, I have duplicates of every vehicle. I have 4 Superbirds, each a different tune for different compounds and powertrims. It is not "undriveable" ... rather it suffers from the same problem as a LOT of vehicles in GT7 --- It can bottom out and scrub it's own tires in the wheelwells. When this happens think of it like the brake being applied to just that wheel, which often has the highest load on it at that moment in the first place... creating oversteer on high load corners, and understeer on braking. This is solved best by increasing minimum ride height. I find this car in particular doesn't like being under 160mm without considerable spring rate and higher dampening, which then turns it into a skateboard eventually. The next issue is gear ratios/differential. The lower the settings on the diff, the slower it will accelerate out of corners, but it will wag less.
I had that happen to me Ferrari GTB front would bottom out Causing deadly understeer so Raise the height and got rid of the camber it originally had now feel nice to drive
It tends to be a rather major issue with practically every muscle car, you can't really lower them all that much before running into this issue (some may still work with stock wheel setup), the worst I've seen was the Mangusta, thing would literally not turn at all once lowered even a little bit
I think some folks don't understand limits. I found out that many cars cannot be lowered to the limit given by the suspension, it might look cool, but you car become highly unstable due to contact with the wheel wells. I had tuned an Italia and had added slightly bigger wheels and the ride height was bare minimum, went for a drive, almost ended up in a wall, the car has trouble turning at low speeds because wheel well coming into contact with the tires. Raised the ride height a couple of mm and back to normal turning radius. Things that weren't in previous games actually ended up in this one. I tune my own cars and never over tuned, just added some power, and spiced up the handling to make it for into usually a few categories between 400pp to 700pp. Old road cars simply do not have the Aerodynamics for absurd power and their tire sizes also can barely keep up with the torque from highly tuned engines, becomes a massive waste of power. Only if PD included more options for older cars like changing their axles and widening the track to allow for wider rubber. One day, I hope! Now I hope the include the old '68 Charger. Another thing I don't get, is why PD lists cars with built in wings as 0 on their down force. They need something better than this, such as a lbs of df @ X speed. I remember having to translate their gobbledygook back in GT6 to get suspension settings which somehow worked. I'm like why do they use these ridiculous digits when they actually use real world values beneath the crap?!
A friend of mine invited me to do some back roads driving with a bunch of his sports car owning friends, and to be funny I took one of my Superbirds (yes really-I have two) instead of my mom’s 911. I ran out of rear brakes in a hurry, and while I upgraded my torsion bars I didn’t have enough spring rate out back to balance the car. The engine has Edelbrock heads and some other work so it didn’t get lost in the straights but I had to brake really, really early. Still a ton of fun to hustle a car that doesn’t want to around roads it shouldn’t be on lol
@@therobustmole1137she’s 76 years old, owns a 911, a turbo Legacy GT and a ‘69 Charger Daytona, all stick shifts. She’s more hardcore than most car guys.
Its kinda funny how person could forget that only a few metal tubes and melted metal can make an old car drive better, it's kind of like they don't see racecars in a racing game
I don't know why, but my superbird is completely stable at daytona, watkins glen and laguna seca, but still there's a way, that I accidently put that reduce ridgity tune because I always tune my car before playing the special event in the weekly challenges section.
It can still be stable(I didn’t use increases rigidity on my 200mph oval test) but it needs wide height and actually ran better on comfort/sport tires with more slip angle. On race tires it seems to be more sensitive and especially at lower ride heights.
@@hubblesphere considering the car was designed around 1960s bias ply tires, it would be set up around a slipping tire and would handle better with it.
This is gone in the latest update... the car doesn't allow any adjustable suspension, showing a triangle with exclamation mark instead of a PP number. Only accepting the standard suspension now.
The rear wings on the production Daytona's and Superbird's are adjustable! so keep in mind that during the wind tunnel tests referenced in this video, the wing was rested!
It's a 1960/70s American landbarge, do people really expect it to drive well? It's not a Corvette. Also if I recall correctly the rear spoiler didn't have any effect in reality, it was all aesthetics
Old NASCAR regulations make it so that the race cars were very close in function to the road cars, the wing did something, but you had to be going at speed, which the road car coudnt really do
The Superbird/Daytona's wing does something atleast that is functional (enough) for what it was made to be in it's time. If you want a real useless wing, look at the Lamborghini Countach 5000QV's wing.
Old vehicles used the frame as a suspension member. As i come through the driveway, my '72 F100 will have obvious cab and bed separation as the two halves of the frame roll independently. This makes the ride softer with leaf springs and poor suspension geometry, but can cause oscillations and feedback loops at higher speeds. Lots of old trucks had "death wobbles". The superbird had a solid rear axle and leaf springs with nothing but track bars to keep the axle from wrapping. Not even a panhard rod. It had very simple arm-on-coil front suspension with a torsion bar at the bottom. It had drum brakes at the rear. Of COURSE it handles poorly at 180mph. People criticizing this car have no understanding of vehicle physics or history.
Being an old man I have actually driven something similar, a Roadrunner. Young men, weaned on game physics and driving cars that are so far advanced from the 60s counterparts simply do not understand how gawdawful a 1970 muscle car was in handling. I've driven a Ferrari 458 GTB around a track for quite a few laps. Their is simply no comparison. I would probably kill myself even trying to get an actual Super Bird around a track. The steering on an old muscle car requires so much input before you get anything approximating a turn compared to a modern sedan. The Brakes are a joke. So it doesn't surprise me at all that younger gamers who have never experienced it would think you could drive it like some high performance super car and be shocked when they were upside down.
Something is still off if it fishtails that poorly. The wings uprights are essentially vertical stabilizers, and as per many wing car drivers, they would correct oversteer and keep it straight
It's these kind of videos that just go all over the place because there's an immense amount of passion and understanding and enough of a need to point at something that everyone can understand even if they don't play the game, especially if they don't play the game.
Great channel. I love your GT7 videos and trust your opinion. Next week GT7 will receive a new tire physics update 1.49. I'd be really grateful if you could make some comments about it when it goes live and you have a chance to test it in action. I'm wondering if it will make the GT7 more realistic or opposite. Thank you in advance.
as a 45 year old muscle car guy that got to drive these cars when i was younger i salute you IRL youd be surprised how incredibly fast and well handling these muscle cars could be
I've not played a Grand Tourismo since the PS3, but I vividly remember that thing has been undrivable since the first game back on the ps1 (Old man yelling at cloud). Like most of those really long American muscle cars of the era, they were not built to corner flat. In game, while I could catch up on the straights through sheer power, approaching a corner at the speed required to stay with the pack resulted in either making passing acquaintance with half the cars in the race and the barrier, or my exiting the bend arse-first. There were some mods you could do to mitigate some of this, but was still still terrible. I remember really regretting blowing my money on one near the beginning of the game and just having race after terrible race to try and buy mods to make it even remotely good.
@0:45 yes you can drive this car at 200 MPH around Daytona. It was a stock car to compete at NASCAR events. Anyone who thinks that it wouldn’t handle a NASCAR track might not be thinking clearly
NASCAR is just an oval, a Track has more left and right hand turns than the the yippee kay yey equivalent. The Firebird had a traditional body on frame as opposed to a relatively stiffer Unibody.
Many cars struggle with the front wheels binding in the fenders. Even with mild lowering or no lowering as soon as the front wheels touch the fender and they basically stop steering until you hit a barrier lol
I love how people are complaining about how this car can't be controlled, he fixes the problem with stiffening and takes it to Daytona and then they're still not convinced and want it driven with a bunch of turns. People this car was made in 1970 for NASCAR which means left turn, then left turn, then left turn, etc. It was never meant to drive left then right, then left, then left, then right, etc. Great job Hubble on proving it is possible and with the right tuning it can be done.
I wonder if they forgot to model the aerodynamics of the vertical stabilizers. The wing wasn't made that tall for downforce, the vertical supports are designed to create a large horizontal force and slight roll moment when the back end starts to step out (Also on oval tracks they could scew the wheel alignment a degree or two to enhance this effect.).
The Daytona’s and Superbirds actually handled great in real life. It’s why with weight, a big hp and torque engine they were so dominant on the big ovals especially. My pops drove a few to test out and after years of living and hot ridding he loved a mean high winding small block. LoudLove
I love how poorly modeled oval racing is in most modern racing games. Developers seem to think they're just driving in circles, yet they have a lot more complexity to them.
@@yowhatsup9909 I'm referring to a lot of things. No game (besides iRacing) properly models how forces affect the cars in oval racing. Especially on high speed oval racing. The amount of g forces constantly on the car and the angle is never shown properly. The suspension compression and handling is never shown correctly and neither is the power of drafting. Drafting is barely modeled at all in most racing games. There's way more to it that also isn't shown like Tire wear and how throttle affects them differently for example.
the tweaking and overall revision of the stock superbird/daytona just speaks to how many casual drivers misunderstand old cars and just think mindlessly or absently of tuning. In nascar it had a cage and many other things for stiffening. It had custom knuckles and brakes, it had unrestricted carburetor, and many more things to avoid instability at high speed. The car was made to register the nosecone and wing into NASCAR for the aero advantage at top end
I had to raise the ride height in the VW Bug when I raced it for laughs. Under hard braking I couldn’t turn, just run right off the track. It was also a substantial ride height adjustment to make it work.
The problem with being "an introduction to cars for new people" is that you will get stubborn idiots who refuse to learn about the mechanics of cars and just want to race, thus getting angry when they can't race properly.
The issue is the mechanics of the car arent being respected by the game. A leafspringed solid rear axle "muscle car" shouldnt be having impressively crippling toe changes in its rear end.
It’s gran Turismo tradition to have cars that are undrivable without extreme tuning, Escudo, S7, etc. Try the Ctr3, biggest disappointment in the game, you think you’re getting a supercar and it’s slow as molasses and steers like a brick.
One advantage you probably won't get in a game is all the cheats these guys would do. These cars for instance didn't use coil springs but torsion bars. Because the ride height was only measured at the beginning of the race, they would have the bars mounted in plastic which after a couple of laps would crush, allowing the bars and ride height to lower. Often something like a screw near the air intake would be a secret NOS port attached to a hidden bottle. Body parts might be designed to change shape with enough wind pressure creating a better aerodynamic shape. Various parts might be acid dipped to become lighter. A fuel line might be made a lot bigger to hold more fuel so less needs for a pit-stop were required. There was constant cheating going on.
The fully upgraded version or motor swapped version has the same issue. The suspension and rigidity are very big issues. But at high speeds there is so much drag that you can starting torque spinning the tires. That is the real biggest issue. Gear ratios and shift points can fix a lot of high power traction issues. C4 vette, and 69’ Camaro have same issues. Motor swapped or not. Remember, transmissions are “TORQUE MULTIPLIERS” in high horsepower cars you want the combined trans gear and rear gear to be as close to a 1:1 ratio as possible in 4th or 5th gear. Most standard transmissions and rear gear combos have 3rd gear as 1:1. Combine gearing and suspension adjustments to achieve the best setup for any car on any course. These old cars don’t have 5th and 6th gears sometimes. So to achieve the desired ratios you’ll need to adjust final drive gear ratio. The lower the number of the rear the more rotations you get out of the wheel for each rotation of the trans gear. Also remember not to down shift too soon at high speed and high rpm. The drag on the running gear is modeled in this game. So just letting off accelerator too soon at high speed can cause the tires to lock up… Have fun 👍
I'm a Forza 8 player, but the first thing I do to a classic car (especially american muscle) is stiffen up the suspension, get anti-roll bars, and invest in at least some basic roll cage in there. Does wonders not only for cornering but also to maintain it stable on the track through height variations and bumps. Rigidity = nice!
dang... thanks for making this video. i could never figure out how to make this car competitive. i would *always* spin or wreck, no matter what i tried. next time the Superbird comes available it's going back in my garage!
I own two Mopars IRL from this time period. One of the most popular up grades is installed frame connectors to tie the front and rear of the unibody together. Also most didnt come with any sway bars. My Road Runner has them front and rear but its uncommon to find and America car from this time with sway bars or disc brakes. The men who raced these cars IRL were real men and risked their lives every weekend. It was easy to throw around a car like this. Sony got it right!
The only problem I have with the Superbird is the vehicle settings menu trying to tell me that the giant rear wing somehow generates 0 lbs of downforce and it isn't adjustable. Fully customizable suspension, fully customizable limited slip diff, dropping the weight as much as I could, and medium racing tires did the trick for me. If you do the high RPM supercharger, it also helps to play with the throttle at the top of second and third so it doesn't eat its own back tires. I have two and routinely drive both at Sarthe, Trial Mountain, and Watkins Glen with no problems even though I think something happened with one of mine with the last update where it tells me that its performance points can't be classified so it won't let me drive it in anything. The car I have the most problem with is the '70 Chevelle SS 454 which is probably my own fault because I refuse to put that giant, stupid looking drag wing on the back
No doubt, when i got the HP cranked up in that superbird, I really thought that I was going to advance until the thing decided to leave the track at every chance it got.
Hell yeah, 👍 great video as always man, I love the attention to detail in this game and in your videos-can’t wait for this new update so we can see your physics comparison videos maybe that will be a good video idea 💡 also maybe a Subaru video next just the road ones maybe Mitsubishi vs Subee lol
I remember doing the licence test at Seattle on Gran Turismo in the thunderbird with my best friend who’s no longer here one of the few times he praised my skills.
the one gripe i have with this video is that the car was tuned for RS tires instead of RH or SS tires to have fair level playing field, like going off of Gr. 3 class cars and how manufactures BOP works is that the RS tires are ~6 seconds faster than the RH tires so in my mind to have it be fair the tire selection would of been RH tires to allow for more grip and less wheel spin but still be closer to the SS tire grip you used for the Merc. otherwise its a look into tuning in GT7 that makes sense but would have to be adapted since it was worked on and came out on the old physics and tire model that was changed with the 1.49 patch
One thing to realize : road cars are not suitable for slicks - and sport tyres in this game are already extremely grippy, to the point sport softs already provide more grip than some real life slicks. Comfort tyres makes most road cars and even some old race cars (like the old Honda F1) much more predictable, balanced and fun to drive. When you have too much tyre grip vs spring rate / natural frequency, what happens is your springs get overloaded and you bottom out from lateral Gs mid corner. At that point it is as if you had no suspension anymore, which often leads to disaster. That's why race cars have very high spring rates, even more so when they have lots of downforce. Otherwise, you'd actually want to run softer springs. And the range of spring rate (which is effectively what natural frequency is hiding in GT7) you have with custom suspension is still not high enough for a lot of cars. Main exceptions are cars like the latest Ford GT or the RUF CTR3 which can drive on racing hards. Fun fact : inters on dry works very well with old scholl race cars as well (but you can't have tyre wear in those conditions). Now, maybe the upcoming update with new physics and the new Michelin tyre model will change things regarding sport tyres, but World Series drivers are saying the race cars are actually faster now on the new physics, so chances are the "problem" will be worse.
Why would you put slicks on a road car stuck suspension? You wouldnt is the answer, negating much of what you wrote. One thing you do notice with slicks on older cars (with suspension upgrages, including but not limited to steering springs, shock absorbers, bushes, sway bars and brakes), is the front stub axles start flexing on fast corners and you touch the brakes and the brakes are spongy or worse.
@@ThePaulv12 many people do in this game. Also, quoting my previous comment, "the range of spring rate (which is effectively what natural frequency is hiding in GT7) you have with custom suspension is still not high enough for a lot of cars"
Because for some reason it gets no rear downforce. They haven't even bothered to change or add options to fix that either. Though yeah I forgot about how easy the suspension bottoms out. It's been a while since I tried to use it
Well this Video is super cool! I like the content of it, even tho i have no issues driving this Car. A nice suggestion: do the same thing for the Ford Sierra RS500 Cosworth. That Car is pretty okay to drive while you are not to high in Horsepower, but the Sierra competed in Group A Racing with Way over 500HP, and that is pretty nasty to drive in GT7, compared to other Group A Legends of that time, like the BMW M3 Evo
They were mostly undriveable in real life. Even the Nascar version, which had a body-stiffening roll cage, was said to be unstable on high banking. Richard Petty even said it was the scariest ride he'd had in his career. Still though, you managed to tame the beast at put down a 6:41, so that's sure to shut up anybody who says you're in Polyphony's back pocket.
Could you update this video after the 1.49 update? I'm getting an error when using racing soft tires and can't use the Superbirds unless I change fronts to comfort
you gotta love that commitment to realism you can't just shove 700hp in a production car from the 1970s and say "yup that'll drive properly" and god forbid you keep them on the stock brakes
In real life, there is a guy named Chris birdsong, has a channel junkrup, and he mostly messes with vintage Mopars. He actually made a ball joint relocation bracket that improved steering geometry, and eliminated alot of the bump steer/caster gain issues the stock a body mopars were known for. He also explained it in a way that even a dipstick like me could understand. Maybe it will translate more to the game than one would expect
Having never played Gran Turismo not sure how the game mechanics work. But that 'wing' was more of a piece that held up the two big fins. It wasn't made so much to provide downforce, but to stabilize things from moving side-to-side like the rear wings on an arrow.
No, it was for downforce, the B-body cars had a lot of high speed lift they needed to counter. Why are so many people like you posting complete fucking nonsense?
Did you even take into account the damper tuning for even more stability??? I haven't heard you mention this, so you may get an even better lap time with that, too! Tuning is everything! Love the video!
Thumb Rule for lousy cars to get good handling : 1. Lower Ride Height 2. Negative -5 Degree Camber front and back 3. Stiffen the chassis 4. Front Toe Out and Rear Toe In 5. Setup the gear ratio to match the track 6. Add bodykits and adjust the spoiler 7. Trial and Error with the correct tire size
The Plymouth Super Bird was built for huge over tracks. And straight line racing. Originally! Now that we have a new physics update. Maybe this will help in controlling this monster. We look forward to your next video with this can after this new update.
I use a Superbird in Drift lobbies and do Tandems, but I do admit finding the balance for it to do that was difficult for me. I might have to mess with it in The Ring tonight. I do have to mention and I have found out the hard way is that if you completely slam/lower your car and you have low wheel arches in the front you will completely will have no turning radius/angle.
The winged cars by Chrysler (Dodge Daytona and a little later Plymouth Superbird) were built for homologation reasons only. A lot of them didn't sell themselves out of the dealership due to the odd looks and huge price. They were ordinary built cars and went to private companies for them to fit the rest touch ups. Don't expect a F1 car. Add today mods to it, then you have a Winged Wonder...
It's important to note that the Firebird was a hand made car, and came with all of the imprecision therein. Look at lots of parts on old cars and one side of a bolted joint will usually have room for adjustment to compensate. the first machine-made vehicle from GM where all of the bolt holes were the same on every single unit was none other than the Pontiac Fiero.
I’ve never thought of the Rigidity Upgrade in that sense. Definitely glad I found this video! Did you do a lap with Sport Soft tires? Interested in what that time would be.
It would still be better if they added a wing upgrade that looks about the same but added a decent amount of rear downforce. The front aero kit just won't be useful without it. I usually get the body rigidity upgrades but I'm always cautious on the widebody upgrade, not always sold on the look, plus I might want to test said cars top speed which should be better without the widebody
Rigidity is huge, but you also hit on something else important: most older cars need suspension travel. Hell, even in the 90s most cars tend to be kind of tippy-toed. If you pull all that travel out they simply can't grip
The reason the superbird and charger daytona were so dominant in nascar and at daytona 500etc, is because they had aero no other cars had. they actualy still handle really wel being a american car. my dad drove one once and you could feel the downforce do its job. they just were not made for the nürburgring. also the nascar cars were equiped with roll-cages providing more body stiffness ( same as the regidity upgrade). the only reason for the height of the rear wing was so the trunk could still open because the for some reason did not mount it on the trunk but the quater panels. the wing would do almost the same being lower than it is. y'all do need to keep in mind that it still is a video-game and not irl. also being an american car the factory commercial superbirds, daytona's and american cars in general had slopier steering and not like a modern german sports car made for the track that has little to any slop. these cars were made for diffrent kinds of racing than the merc so there is a reason y'all can't drive it that fast on the ring. they handle less good? (yes). they handle terrible(no), they just handle diffrent than modern cars.
Older car have softer suspension in Gran Turismo (This and Ruf Yellowbird for instance), and they have tendency to lose traction during braking, bodyroll during corner, and spin on the exit. That's why if you wanna try them out on Nordschleife, its recommended to stiffen your suspension like any other car being tested there.
the amount of people who don't realize that old American cars drive like garbage without a lot of modification is hilarious. i had to replace every single suspension component on my 71 Chevelle just to get it to handle as well as a 1990 Camry.
Considering the Daytona and Superbird were never built for mass production... its said they didnt even produce the number needed to qualify as a "stock" car. They were literally built to do 200, just not as is from factory
I'm kind of surprised some people completely forget about rigidity upgrades, they're very relevant for old cars.
True my way to decide if the car needs it is to see if the pp limit goes up or down when i apply it if it stays the same it
wont make much diference but if the pp drops it might create understeer but thats just the tip of the iceberg because the rollcage also increses rigidity it takes some tries to find the right combo
They forgot how wobly old cars are. It literally disorients the car.
I was always dubious that it did anything because in my mind the cars are just one rigid polygon like in other games. Kudos to PD for incorporating body flex
i think there are just more casual gamers, and the people who cant drive cars need to go back to forza horiozn and NFS
@@beatles42ohgg94 says the guy playing a casual racing game in GT7.
People forget that NASCAR has rollcages, and rollcages stiffen the car up. Civilian version you get in GT was never supposed to go on an oval unmodified, so it starts to bounce around without rigidity upgrades.
Yup, that is why I have two one I use without the body rigidity (I have managed to drive that boat like a speedboat) and one that could obliterate a ZL1 in Nascar and a 911 RS (901) in the Nür.
Yup, also, i can be wrong, but i wouldn't be surprised if Polyphony Digital used recently collected data for body rigidity for older cars. So they use the current rigidity of 40+ Yo race cars, who likely have lost most if not all their original rigidity through years of hard use and normal metal fatigue. The Daytona/Superbird being such extreme cars for their time mean that the lost rigidity is much more apparent and detrimental than on a Honda S800 for example.
@@Alystasalright, alright, I pick up what you’re putting down
its kind of funny that the devs will make old cars wobbly (as they were in real life), but will leave in rear alignment settings for cars that came with a solid rear axle
I haven't played this game, but I work on old cars. Rear alignment is possible with a solid rear axle. It just involves bending the axle housing, usually with a hydraulic jack. I do think it is unfortunate that body rigidity and suspension stiffness are grouped to-gether in this simulation (in real life, I like a car with a rigid body and soft springs due to the ride quality.) Chrysler products are usually quite rigid compared to Fords, as they adopted a unibody across the lineup early on.
The body rigidity upgrade was a game changer for me once I realized what it did
What does it do
@@Sneeppp did you watch this video?
@@tristjohnson9943 yes
@@Sneeppp2:06 2:26 2:32
@@Sneepppare you really asking what an upgrade called body rigidity does? Seriously?
Just wanted to mention, given the car that was a sensational lap. That was some serious jaw dropping performance mate
No kiding. It was surreal seeing that old boat blizing around the corners like that.
@@souldude6344the bounce on some of those corners was downright terrifying. I would’ve liked to see more cockpit footage of this lap
Indeed
Not to surprised really as Superbirds had great power to weight ratios, and surprisingly high torque even by modern standards. Also, people are forgetting that Superbirds got banned from NASCAR because it was way to fast, compared to it's competition.
I guess the important thing to say is that the Superbird, on the racetrack of yore, was a heavily modified car with a cage in it (makes the whole chassis stiffer) using every trick NASCAR would allow, and some it didn't, while some of the smartest mechanics to ever live tweaked the car for the high speed oval. But the version the game gives you seems to be the civilian version of a 1960s road car, with a full interior, none of the modifications, and it would appear a very floppy chassis with a solid rear axle and 1960s suspension technology. This car knew it was going on the American highway, at maybe 100mph if the cops aren't looking, for a brief period, in an arrow straight line. Go figure, it's not ready for serious racing without modification.
is hilarious as it is sad that people see the street superbird and go "yeah this is exactly the same as the race version" like my brother in christ they aren't the same car at all
I've gone more than 150mph in old 1960's street version mopars. One an old 1969 Coronet 440 and another a 1966 New Yorker more highly modified. The Coronet was doing what I would call seesawing at high speed. Kind of rolling side to side and the steering was very light. I went by about nine Mass state police clustered in the highway center. If any came out to play I never saw them in my rearview mirror.
The New Yorker had a polygraphite front suspension and a 440 built for me by someone that built Nascar Mopar engines in the 1960's and was still building offshore powerboat race engines. I lightened the New Yorker a lot. Took out the dash, AC, and heater, removed the rear window regulators and locked them closed, all the seats and put in two Dodge Omni buckets for seating. I put in a custom aluminum dash with digital gauges. It actually was far better handling than the Coronet. I ran that to 150 or more many times.
The thing about old Mopars is you had to know how to drive them! You didn't know how to drive them you could die real easy. To me though they were far better at high speeds than any Ford or Chevy I drove of 1960's vintage. Bias ply tires weren't exactly great for handling but would leave the best smoke shows.
These cars were built for torque and 1/4 mile times. They were not meant or geared to drive 100mph.
@@TheBeefSlayer I'd say you are pretty wrong about that! The whole point of the Daytona's and Superbirds were top end speed and aerodynamics.
@@TheBeefSlayer The Daytona was literally named after a nascar track.
0:15 lore accurate Dinoco moment
Gotta love it when some stubborn person whips out the ol', "Erm, you're clearly bought by a company." Excuse when it's just a skill issue on their part lmao
People have said this about this guy before because of his treatment of GT. He glazes it hard.
@@boredguy2935 id bet the people saying that dont have anything that theyre passionate about lol
@viruscaught3826 it's not passion, it's just fanboyism.
It's a major issue with GT7's fanbase, has been for awhile now and is part of why so many have abandoned the franchise. The game has clear problems and issues that remain un-addressed but the remaining fanbase will simply screech "ackshully the game does this" when it doesn't, or the classic "but forza! But grid!"
This youtuber just exemplifies it. This is literally a video about "no, The physics are actually fine you're just wrong" where he ***adjusts the toe and camber on a solid axle***. Same as his other videos where he speeds up/slows his footage or pulls punches to make GT look better than it is.
There's another youtuber who literally writes AI music about GT VS Forza.
No, the GT fanbase isn't passion. It's fanboyism. Passion would be something like the Saints Row fanbase, where they actually fought for what they wanted. This is just blind sony glazing, which is an ever increasing problem in the games industry
@boredguy2935 some of the cars in GT7 do handle like the Plymouth Superbird stock and just simply installing the Body rigidity upgrade significantly improved the stability and handling, I know this because I've tested myself.
@@turnipgaming9747 I've tested it myself as well. In the original post he was referencing, the issue was that the car was completely fucked stock
There are numerous GT tuners who have pointed out something was off with its physics long ago.
That car still looks scary as hell to drive..
To be fair it's basically a Dodge Charger with a big wing and sharp nose if you dumb it down to the core. Handles a bit better than your regular Charger R/T but don't expect it to run tight rings around a Lotus Esprit
Skill issue
@@PlatinumNathI think you mean the Lotus Exige?
Does look kinda fun though. Seeing it glide through the corners at those speeds, bouncing all the way.
The idea of pushing to the limit an old car with that sort of roughness or lack of refinement to it's design would be appealing to some. So in that respect it does look fun lol.
@@FLAMABBLE I'm correlating it to a period correct(ish) example (1970s). If period correctness is not in my mood an Exige or Elise would work just as well to demonstrate comparison, but since it's not the case, I put the Esprit as a comparison (1976, compared to Superbird which is made in 1970. Course I can also use the Elan or Europa instead which is even more period correct but I bend my own rules sometimes, I know, I'm a scrutinizable pillock)
This whole video is just Hubblesphere saying "skill issue"
You just have to appreciate how people who do not understand the game well enough to feel the body roll of a car on the limit and do not understand how to tune will go and call you a paid shill.
There is a vocal minority of players who want everything for free and no challenge to be too difficult and they need to be shamed.
Good video!
Best comment on GT7 I've seen. Sadly I don't think it's a minority though.
basically a skill issue
The unfortunate reality is that there's a lot of people who just assume that if something isn't perfect for them, there's some sort of conspiracy going on.
Agreed 💯
@@noggin6870more like this comment is a conspiracy?
Please make more videos exploring how to redeem poorly-handling cars in GT games.
Racing game fans rarely discuss min/maxing because going off-meta just isn’t rewarding with massive car lists and seldom need for a specialized build. It’s why I love FailRace’s Horizon videos so much - their arbitrary race requirements show love to cars you never actually see in lobbies, and sometimes someone strikes gold with an insanely potent build.
I really think this could be a great niche for this channel.
Which is ironic, given that Gran Turismo and Polyphony Digital always had an unmatched love for cars in general and an absurd amount of customization, ever since the 2000's, to the point of including all the worst and most commin roads cars one could find, like a 90's Ford Ka. It is not for racing, and you are not expected to use them, but they are there solely because they are cars people actually drive around in. It is the vehicle selection of Assetto Corsa, before Assetto Corsa.
But perhaps it is the customization itself that allows people to think it is all about minmaxing. I admit, I used to do the same. When the dial for spring rates is in decimals, should I go for multiples of 0.5 (4.5, 6.0...) or actually nail it down (4.3, 6.2...)? How much downforce? How much differential lock? How much toe and camber?
You see in forums entire breakdowns of every car, down to fractions of decimals. It is all absurd as well.
@@NothingXemnas I don't think putting a spoiler on a car is called "crazy customizations" lol
@@Maximus20778At what point did they suggest only putting on a rear spoiler/wing is crazy customization?
The moment you add anything to the stock vehicle, it's customized. Most customize with tires, wheels/wheel diameter/width, wide body(if applicable), engine tuning, air, forced induction, gear box, gear ratio, weight distribution, weight savings and the list goes on. How did you come to the conclusion of a wing is confusing, do you even play this game at all?
@@evilformerlys4704 He's a troll, and you fell for it. 💀
There is one massive oversight on the part of PD when it comes to old car like this, and the pickup trucks. They have solid axles in the rear. They do not have adjustable toe or camber in the rear. For some reason, PD chose to allow us to make impossible adjustments when they should've either blocked them for an easy solution, or even provided the various adjustments that adjustable solid axle setups allow, none of which still include camber or toe mind you. So yes this car and others like it are simply simulated wrong, and that's largely why they have quirky handling.
Or cars that are automatic only yet you can drive them manually
Full manual reverse valve body. And I know how to adjust toe and camber on a straight axle. Run into a curb!
@@keefgtp cars that are automatic only IRL being "manual" is also a crime, this car and the The Judge are culprits
@@Agent-mb1xx the fuck are you on about the Daytona and the Judge both came with 4 speed manuals. Automatic slushboxes were available but not widely used.
@@UnderwaterAlexJones not in the game, not the IRL models that they have used, I missed to precise that part. Use the pilot's view and see, automatics
I don't play GT7 and I'm a total novice at racing games but from a general gamer and car enthusiast perspective, this was a pretty fun video. It's something that could basically never exist, a hemi plymouth superbird worth a bazillion dollars with wild track focused modifications, racing at the 10/10 limit, no less at the ring. Great video and impressive driving :)
Wow, I wasn't expecting that result. I'll have to try this out next time the Superbird Weekly Race comes around.
As for future video ideas - You seem to have a fantastic understanding of the physics in GT7, so it might be interesting to see some sort of comparisons between how the physics change from their current workings to the new physics that are coming in the next update on July 25 once that is available.
If you notice on that Daytona wind tunnel test, they laid out the rear wing just about flat, then did the test. Those wings (both Daytona and Superbird) IRL can be adjusted factory stock. If they had given it a bit of angle, there would be a significant difference to the "new" Charger duck tail.
Wasn't that video basically a modern dodge commercial?
@@kyle8952 Could be, I'm not sure. I just noticed it in the clip provided here. Wouldn't surprise me that Stellantis would "nerf" an old car to make a new one look better.
probably gamed it to sell the new car. "look the new car has more downford that the superbird with that big 'ol WANG on it!"
Honestly, the Daytonas and Superbirds that were actually sold were really just a slightly faster and gripper Charger/Roadrunner. Underneath they're basically identical to their base cars, i think people forget that these cars only existed so they could be modified further for NASCAR and attribute the Stock Cars performance to the street car also
Totally, the Superbirds were a RoadRunner with a different front bumper and a big wing, that's it. Also, there's a video of an old man that explained how you could notice if a Charger Daytona and a Superbird are original, and it's that the Charger Daytona has real fender vents/scoops and the Superbird didn't. The car is amazing but it was made like you said just because it was a regulation and at that time it didn't even sell.
How would a straight axle car have bump steer toe issue in real life, kinda wild theyd put that in the game
The front end will still have those issues , but you're right about the rear
Yeah wtf lol 💀
the axle can still twist entirely
there are issues with live axel track and thrust angles under load, its why any serious live axel car has a panhard bar or watts links. Even with those items you can run into some silly issues. When racing my 1985 RX-7 GSL-SE due to the fact the watts links is offset to the passenger side of the axel you can get travel bind on that side under extreme compression. so if I hit a large bump or do hard corner loads it can really throw the car off because the right side compression bottoms out before the left.
take it to the extreme, if one side has shorter links than the other side then as the axle bumps the side with shorter links will pull forward more, creating a bump steer effect. That's a simplified example, but lots of cases where the axle will pivot. This is easily seen in rock crawlers where there is so much suspension travel you can easily see the rear axle angling to one side.
0:58 the reach from that guy is hilarious 🤣
It’s not really. Hubble cut out all the crap he was saying in that thread lmao
@tecnoguy1136 I saw this lol. Yeah, Hubble was absolutely taking shit out of context to prove a point. Lol
i like how the people where so mad that he fixed the super bird on the oval(a track it was built for originally) then told him to take it on the hardest track ever built. classic
A tale as old as time. It's always "It's someone or something else's fault", never "I suck at how I play the game, what can I do different". These same people will never be remembered. And I believe that haunts them
people dont realize that downforce is a collective value rather than wing/splitter focused.
the reason why modern dodge charger has similar downforce with just small oem rear lip is because modern cars have way better roof/window shape and more well positioned exhaust, axles, and other underbody parts compared to rougher 60s dodge charger underside.
So if that wing being put in modern charger, the downforce may be way higher than both cars (oem modern charger and 60s daytona). talking about irl.
but yeah talking about gt7, i have no idea how the downforce works tho.
downforce and ground effect are two different things.
If you have a big wing in the rear then most of that downforce goes to the rear tires. theres a reason why f1 cars have front wing.
5:58
@@aleks_jonesdownforce is the result of all aerodynamic pressures acting on the panels of a car pulling/ and or pushing down on a car. Ground effects is just an aerodynamic device to either create lower underbody pressure to pull the car down/ and or reduce drag. I dont understand your comment saying these 2 intertwined things are different
So, I am gonna say I that I have earned more than 1B in credits in GT7, I have duplicates of every vehicle. I have 4 Superbirds, each a different tune for different compounds and powertrims. It is not "undriveable" ... rather it suffers from the same problem as a LOT of vehicles in GT7 --- It can bottom out and scrub it's own tires in the wheelwells. When this happens think of it like the brake being applied to just that wheel, which often has the highest load on it at that moment in the first place... creating oversteer on high load corners, and understeer on braking. This is solved best by increasing minimum ride height. I find this car in particular doesn't like being under 160mm without considerable spring rate and higher dampening, which then turns it into a skateboard eventually.
The next issue is gear ratios/differential. The lower the settings on the diff, the slower it will accelerate out of corners, but it will wag less.
I had that happen to me Ferrari GTB front would bottom out Causing deadly understeer so Raise the height and got rid of the camber it originally had now feel nice to drive
It tends to be a rather major issue with practically every muscle car, you can't really lower them all that much before running into this issue (some may still work with stock wheel setup), the worst I've seen was the Mangusta, thing would literally not turn at all once lowered even a little bit
I think some folks don't understand limits. I found out that many cars cannot be lowered to the limit given by the suspension, it might look cool, but you car become highly unstable due to contact with the wheel wells.
I had tuned an Italia and had added slightly bigger wheels and the ride height was bare minimum, went for a drive, almost ended up in a wall, the car has trouble turning at low speeds because wheel well coming into contact with the tires. Raised the ride height a couple of mm and back to normal turning radius. Things that weren't in previous games actually ended up in this one. I tune my own cars and never over tuned, just added some power, and spiced up the handling to make it for into usually a few categories between 400pp to 700pp. Old road cars simply do not have the Aerodynamics for absurd power and their tire sizes also can barely keep up with the torque from highly tuned engines, becomes a massive waste of power.
Only if PD included more options for older cars like changing their axles and widening the track to allow for wider rubber. One day, I hope!
Now I hope the include the old '68 Charger.
Another thing I don't get, is why PD lists cars with built in wings as 0 on their down force. They need something better than this, such as a lbs of df @ X speed. I remember having to translate their gobbledygook back in GT6 to get suspension settings which somehow worked. I'm like why do they use these ridiculous digits when they actually use real world values beneath the crap?!
A friend of mine invited me to do some back roads driving with a bunch of his sports car owning friends, and to be funny I took one of my Superbirds (yes really-I have two) instead of my mom’s 911. I ran out of rear brakes in a hurry, and while I upgraded my torsion bars I didn’t have enough spring rate out back to balance the car. The engine has Edelbrock heads and some other work so it didn’t get lost in the straights but I had to brake really, really early. Still a ton of fun to hustle a car that doesn’t want to around roads it shouldn’t be on lol
Mom's 911...
wtf
@@therobustmole1137she’s 76 years old, owns a 911, a turbo Legacy GT and a ‘69 Charger Daytona, all stick shifts. She’s more hardcore than most car guys.
People seriously dont buy the body rigidity upgrade?
My last Gran Turismo was GT4. In that game, body rigidity upgrade is kinda shat. It has opposite effects on what it should provide.
@@j0sH092 That's just how habits go. Especially with how little actual documentation Kaz puts into releases.
If you see someone say that Ovals are "easy" for THE car that won on ovals you need to run from those morons as far as possible.
The car was unironically made to win in ovals in a way that it ended up BANNED of racing beacuse of that
Its kinda funny how person could forget that only a few metal tubes and melted metal can make an old car drive better, it's kind of like they don't see racecars in a racing game
I think a lot of them didn't realize the Homologated Street cars were just a trick to get around the rules, not actual copies of the cars being raced.
I don't know why, but my superbird is completely stable at daytona, watkins glen and laguna seca, but still there's a way, that I accidently put that reduce ridgity tune because I always tune my car before playing the special event in the weekly challenges section.
It can still be stable(I didn’t use increases rigidity on my 200mph oval test) but it needs wide height and actually ran better on comfort/sport tires with more slip angle. On race tires it seems to be more sensitive and especially at lower ride heights.
@@hubblesphere considering the car was designed around 1960s bias ply tires, it would be set up around a slipping tire and would handle better with it.
This is gone in the latest update... the car doesn't allow any adjustable suspension, showing a triangle with exclamation mark instead of a PP number. Only accepting the standard suspension now.
Me too, I think they broke the Superbirds with the update
The rear wings on the production Daytona's and Superbird's are adjustable! so keep in mind that during the wind tunnel tests referenced in this video, the wing was rested!
My gripe about the Superbird in GT7 is the inability to change the wing angle.
I don't think the road car even had an adjustable wing. So it kind of goes together with the car they literally scanned.
@@evilformerlys4704 the commercial versions of both the daytona charger and superbird were adjustable.
@@fredrickalexander7023 Yep, 12 degrees
It's a 1960/70s American landbarge, do people really expect it to drive well? It's not a Corvette. Also if I recall correctly the rear spoiler didn't have any effect in reality, it was all aesthetics
Old NASCAR regulations make it so that the race cars were very close in function to the road cars, the wing did something, but you had to be going at speed, which the road car coudnt really do
The rear wing does produce downforce just not a significant amount. It was designed for NASCAR and the wing was 100% functional.
The Superbird/Daytona's wing does something atleast that is functional (enough) for what it was made to be in it's time. If you want a real useless wing, look at the Lamborghini Countach 5000QV's wing.
The bigger difference on the Daytona/Superbird was the reshaped rear window, but the wing still absolutely was effective.
it was also built for nascar, why does it need to drive well outside of a oval
2:55 "Zeroing out the rear toe"... on a car that canonically has a solid rear axle?
Old vehicles used the frame as a suspension member. As i come through the driveway, my '72 F100 will have obvious cab and bed separation as the two halves of the frame roll independently. This makes the ride softer with leaf springs and poor suspension geometry, but can cause oscillations and feedback loops at higher speeds. Lots of old trucks had "death wobbles". The superbird had a solid rear axle and leaf springs with nothing but track bars to keep the axle from wrapping. Not even a panhard rod. It had very simple arm-on-coil front suspension with a torsion bar at the bottom. It had drum brakes at the rear. Of COURSE it handles poorly at 180mph. People criticizing this car have no understanding of vehicle physics or history.
Being an old man I have actually driven something similar, a Roadrunner. Young men, weaned on game physics and driving cars that are so far advanced from the 60s counterparts simply do not understand how gawdawful a 1970 muscle car was in handling. I've driven a Ferrari 458 GTB around a track for quite a few laps. Their is simply no comparison. I would probably kill myself even trying to get an actual Super Bird around a track. The steering on an old muscle car requires so much input before you get anything approximating a turn compared to a modern sedan. The Brakes are a joke. So it doesn't surprise me at all that younger gamers who have never experienced it would think you could drive it like some high performance super car and be shocked when they were upside down.
At the 1:19 mark, that's my University lmao...
Something is still off if it fishtails that poorly. The wings uprights are essentially vertical stabilizers, and as per many wing car drivers, they would correct oversteer and keep it straight
Not to mention the rear is solid axle, it wouldn't have camber or toe regardless
Well that was fun, definitely cool seeing that big old boat going around the ring.
It's these kind of videos that just go all over the place because there's an immense amount of passion and understanding and enough of a need to point at something that everyone can understand even if they don't play the game, especially if they don't play the game.
Great channel. I love your GT7 videos and trust your opinion. Next week GT7 will receive a new tire physics update 1.49. I'd be really grateful if you could make some comments about it when it goes live and you have a chance to test it in action. I'm wondering if it will make the GT7 more realistic or opposite. Thank you in advance.
as a 45 year old muscle car guy that got to drive these cars when i was younger i salute you IRL youd be surprised how incredibly fast and well handling these muscle cars could be
I've not played a Grand Tourismo since the PS3, but I vividly remember that thing has been undrivable since the first game back on the ps1 (Old man yelling at cloud). Like most of those really long American muscle cars of the era, they were not built to corner flat. In game, while I could catch up on the straights through sheer power, approaching a corner at the speed required to stay with the pack resulted in either making passing acquaintance with half the cars in the race and the barrier, or my exiting the bend arse-first. There were some mods you could do to mitigate some of this, but was still still terrible. I remember really regretting blowing my money on one near the beginning of the game and just having race after terrible race to try and buy mods to make it even remotely good.
@0:45 yes you can drive this car at 200 MPH around Daytona. It was a stock car to compete at NASCAR events. Anyone who thinks that it wouldn’t handle a NASCAR track might not be thinking clearly
Didn't it hold the record for the highest speed??
NASCAR is just an oval, a Track has more left and right hand turns than the the yippee kay yey equivalent.
The Firebird had a traditional body on frame as opposed to a relatively stiffer Unibody.
Many cars struggle with the front wheels binding in the fenders. Even with mild lowering or no lowering as soon as the front wheels touch the fender and they basically stop steering until you hit a barrier lol
I love how people are complaining about how this car can't be controlled, he fixes the problem with stiffening and takes it to Daytona and then they're still not convinced and want it driven with a bunch of turns. People this car was made in 1970 for NASCAR which means left turn, then left turn, then left turn, etc. It was never meant to drive left then right, then left, then left, then right, etc. Great job Hubble on proving it is possible and with the right tuning it can be done.
I wonder if they forgot to model the aerodynamics of the vertical stabilizers. The wing wasn't made that tall for downforce, the vertical supports are designed to create a large horizontal force and slight roll moment when the back end starts to step out (Also on oval tracks they could scew the wheel alignment a degree or two to enhance this effect.).
The Daytona’s and Superbirds actually handled great in real life. It’s why with weight, a big hp and torque engine they were so dominant on the big ovals especially. My pops drove a few to test out and after years of living and hot ridding he loved a mean high winding small block. LoudLove
I love how poorly modeled oval racing is in most modern racing games. Developers seem to think they're just driving in circles, yet they have a lot more complexity to them.
Yeah! There are, like, three or four gentle corners to worry about!
@@DeathInTheSnow that's exactly the kind of ignorance I'm referring to!
Are you referring to corner banking?
@@yowhatsup9909 I'm referring to a lot of things. No game (besides iRacing) properly models how forces affect the cars in oval racing. Especially on high speed oval racing. The amount of g forces constantly on the car and the angle is never shown properly. The suspension compression and handling is never shown correctly and neither is the power of drafting. Drafting is barely modeled at all in most racing games. There's way more to it that also isn't shown like Tire wear and how throttle affects them differently for example.
driver skill + knowledge about the car + top notch setup = perfection. Love it!
the tweaking and overall revision of the stock superbird/daytona just speaks to how many casual drivers misunderstand old cars and just think mindlessly or absently of tuning. In nascar it had a cage and many other things for stiffening. It had custom knuckles and brakes, it had unrestricted carburetor, and many more things to avoid instability at high speed. The car was made to register the nosecone and wing into NASCAR for the aero advantage at top end
I had to raise the ride height in the VW Bug when I raced it for laughs. Under hard braking I couldn’t turn, just run right off the track. It was also a substantial ride height adjustment to make it work.
The problem with being "an introduction to cars for new people" is that you will get stubborn idiots who refuse to learn about the mechanics of cars and just want to race, thus getting angry when they can't race properly.
The issue is the mechanics of the car arent being respected by the game. A leafspringed solid rear axle "muscle car" shouldnt be having impressively crippling toe changes in its rear end.
It’s gran Turismo tradition to have cars that are undrivable without extreme tuning, Escudo, S7, etc. Try the Ctr3, biggest disappointment in the game, you think you’re getting a supercar and it’s slow as molasses and steers like a brick.
One advantage you probably won't get in a game is all the cheats these guys would do. These cars for instance didn't use coil springs but torsion bars. Because the ride height was only measured at the beginning of the race, they would have the bars mounted in plastic which after a couple of laps would crush, allowing the bars and ride height to lower. Often something like a screw near the air intake would be a secret NOS port attached to a hidden bottle. Body parts might be designed to change shape with enough wind pressure creating a better aerodynamic shape. Various parts might be acid dipped to become lighter. A fuel line might be made a lot bigger to hold more fuel so less needs for a pit-stop were required. There was constant cheating going on.
The fully upgraded version or motor swapped version has the same issue. The suspension and rigidity are very big issues. But at high speeds there is so much drag that you can starting torque spinning the tires. That is the real biggest issue. Gear ratios and shift points can fix a lot of high power traction issues. C4 vette, and 69’ Camaro have same issues. Motor swapped or not. Remember, transmissions are “TORQUE MULTIPLIERS” in high horsepower cars you want the combined trans gear and rear gear to be as close to a 1:1 ratio as possible in 4th or 5th gear. Most standard transmissions and rear gear combos have 3rd gear as 1:1. Combine gearing and suspension adjustments to achieve the best setup for any car on any course. These old cars don’t have 5th and 6th gears sometimes. So to achieve the desired ratios you’ll need to adjust final drive gear ratio. The lower the number of the rear the more rotations you get out of the wheel for each rotation of the trans gear. Also remember not to down shift too soon at high speed and high rpm. The drag on the running gear is modeled in this game. So just letting off accelerator too soon at high speed can cause the tires to lock up… Have fun 👍
I did not expect to see a recreation of that one crash I remember from Cars (2006 movie) in the intro 😂
Crazy thanks for making this I’ll upgrade mine with the same suspension height you used. The Super Bird is a very cool car
I'm a Forza 8 player, but the first thing I do to a classic car (especially american muscle) is stiffen up the suspension, get anti-roll bars, and invest in at least some basic roll cage in there. Does wonders not only for cornering but also to maintain it stable on the track through height variations and bumps.
Rigidity = nice!
dang... thanks for making this video. i could never figure out how to make this car competitive. i would *always* spin or wreck, no matter what i tried. next time the Superbird comes available it's going back in my garage!
I own two Mopars IRL from this time period. One of the most popular up grades is installed frame connectors to tie the front and rear of the unibody together. Also most didnt come with any sway bars. My Road Runner has them front and rear but its uncommon to find and America car from this time with sway bars or disc brakes. The men who raced these cars IRL were real men and risked their lives every weekend. It was easy to throw around a car like this. Sony got it right!
One note, the Daytona has an adjustable wing. You can see in the wind tunnel test that it is flat...
The only problem I have with the Superbird is the vehicle settings menu trying to tell me that the giant rear wing somehow generates 0 lbs of downforce and it isn't adjustable. Fully customizable suspension, fully customizable limited slip diff, dropping the weight as much as I could, and medium racing tires did the trick for me. If you do the high RPM supercharger, it also helps to play with the throttle at the top of second and third so it doesn't eat its own back tires. I have two and routinely drive both at Sarthe, Trial Mountain, and Watkins Glen with no problems even though I think something happened with one of mine with the last update where it tells me that its performance points can't be classified so it won't let me drive it in anything. The car I have the most problem with is the '70 Chevelle SS 454 which is probably my own fault because I refuse to put that giant, stupid looking drag wing on the back
No doubt, when i got the HP cranked up in that superbird, I really thought that I was going to advance until the thing decided to leave the track at every chance it got.
Hell yeah, 👍 great video as always man, I love the attention to detail in this game and in your videos-can’t wait for this new update so we can see your physics comparison videos maybe that will be a good video idea 💡 also maybe a Subaru video next just the road ones maybe Mitsubishi vs Subee lol
I remember doing the licence test at Seattle on Gran Turismo in the thunderbird with my best friend who’s no longer here one of the few times he praised my skills.
the one gripe i have with this video is that the car was tuned for RS tires instead of RH or SS tires to have fair level playing field, like going off of Gr. 3 class cars and how manufactures BOP works is that the RS tires are ~6 seconds faster than the RH tires so in my mind to have it be fair the tire selection would of been RH tires to allow for more grip and less wheel spin but still be closer to the SS tire grip you used for the Merc. otherwise its a look into tuning in GT7 that makes sense but would have to be adapted since it was worked on and came out on the old physics and tire model that was changed with the 1.49 patch
I love seeing a good tuning challenge come together
One thing to realize : road cars are not suitable for slicks - and sport tyres in this game are already extremely grippy, to the point sport softs already provide more grip than some real life slicks. Comfort tyres makes most road cars and even some old race cars (like the old Honda F1) much more predictable, balanced and fun to drive.
When you have too much tyre grip vs spring rate / natural frequency, what happens is your springs get overloaded and you bottom out from lateral Gs mid corner. At that point it is as if you had no suspension anymore, which often leads to disaster. That's why race cars have very high spring rates, even more so when they have lots of downforce. Otherwise, you'd actually want to run softer springs. And the range of spring rate (which is effectively what natural frequency is hiding in GT7) you have with custom suspension is still not high enough for a lot of cars. Main exceptions are cars like the latest Ford GT or the RUF CTR3 which can drive on racing hards.
Fun fact : inters on dry works very well with old scholl race cars as well (but you can't have tyre wear in those conditions).
Now, maybe the upcoming update with new physics and the new Michelin tyre model will change things regarding sport tyres, but World Series drivers are saying the race cars are actually faster now on the new physics, so chances are the "problem" will be worse.
Why would you put slicks on a road car stuck suspension?
You wouldnt is the answer, negating much of what you wrote.
One thing you do notice with slicks on older cars (with suspension upgrages, including but not limited to steering springs, shock absorbers, bushes, sway bars and brakes), is the front stub axles start flexing on fast corners and you touch the brakes and the brakes are spongy or worse.
@@ThePaulv12 many people do in this game.
Also, quoting my previous comment, "the range of spring rate (which is effectively what natural frequency is hiding in GT7) you have with custom suspension is still not high enough for a lot of cars"
Because for some reason it gets no rear downforce. They haven't even bothered to change or add options to fix that either. Though yeah I forgot about how easy the suspension bottoms out. It's been a while since I tried to use it
Ever since the most recent update, there have been even more vehicles that just feel like death traps...its absolutely horrendous.
Dinoco livery? A man of culture indeed. Good solution amd explanation of the problem, thank you
Well this Video is super cool! I like the content of it, even tho i have no issues driving this Car.
A nice suggestion: do the same thing for the Ford Sierra RS500 Cosworth. That Car is pretty okay to drive while you are not to high in Horsepower, but the Sierra competed in Group A Racing with Way over 500HP, and that is pretty nasty to drive in GT7, compared to other Group A Legends of that time, like the BMW M3 Evo
They were mostly undriveable in real life. Even the Nascar version, which had a body-stiffening roll cage, was said to be unstable on high banking. Richard Petty even said it was the scariest ride he'd had in his career.
Still though, you managed to tame the beast at put down a 6:41, so that's sure to shut up anybody who says you're in Polyphony's back pocket.
Could you update this video after the 1.49 update? I'm getting an error when using racing soft tires and can't use the Superbirds unless I change fronts to comfort
you gotta love that commitment to realism
you can't just shove 700hp in a production car from the 1970s and say "yup that'll drive properly"
and god forbid you keep them on the stock brakes
Great vid kinda suprised u only have 4k subs keep it going
In real life, there is a guy named Chris birdsong, has a channel junkrup, and he mostly messes with vintage Mopars. He actually made a ball joint relocation bracket that improved steering geometry, and eliminated alot of the bump steer/caster gain issues the stock a body mopars were known for.
He also explained it in a way that even a dipstick like me could understand.
Maybe it will translate more to the game than one would expect
I've been playing GT for 20 years and never thought about the ride height.
the bounce before bravery is insane I would for sure lift wow 6:56
Like Vin Serento said: “it's not the car you drive. It's the driver who's driving the car that's doing the driving.”
Having never played Gran Turismo not sure how the game mechanics work. But that 'wing' was more of a piece that held up the two big fins. It wasn't made so much to provide downforce, but to stabilize things from moving side-to-side like the rear wings on an arrow.
No, it was for downforce, the B-body cars had a lot of high speed lift they needed to counter. Why are so many people like you posting complete fucking nonsense?
Did you even take into account the damper tuning for even more stability??? I haven't heard you mention this, so you may get an even better lap time with that, too! Tuning is everything! Love the video!
Thumb Rule for lousy cars to get good handling :
1. Lower Ride Height
2. Negative -5 Degree Camber front and back
3. Stiffen the chassis
4. Front Toe Out and Rear Toe In
5. Setup the gear ratio to match the track
6. Add bodykits and adjust the spoiler
7. Trial and Error with the correct tire size
I love how this car handles stock
It’s interesting to think how they got it wrong with such a famous and good car in real life
U
Buddy Baker told the story when he broke 200 MPH with the real thing of the left front tire being off the ground.
I guess it never occurred to people that cars in the past, especially production cars that were not built for track, don't handle well at high speeds.
The Plymouth Super Bird was built for huge over tracks. And straight line racing. Originally! Now that we have a new physics update. Maybe this will help in controlling this monster. We look forward to your next video with this can after this new update.
Bro you got some skill behind the wheel I feel like I need to re learn how to tune suspension with GT7
I use a Superbird in Drift lobbies and do Tandems, but I do admit finding the balance for it to do that was difficult for me. I might have to mess with it in The Ring tonight. I do have to mention and I have found out the hard way is that if you completely slam/lower your car and you have low wheel arches in the front you will completely will have no turning radius/angle.
I wouldn't be surprised if it did generate lift: the aero bodywork is to reduce drag, not to make it corner better
The winged cars by Chrysler (Dodge Daytona and a little later Plymouth Superbird) were built for homologation reasons only. A lot of them didn't sell themselves out of the dealership due to the odd looks and huge price. They were ordinary built cars and went to private companies for them to fit the rest touch ups. Don't expect a F1 car. Add today mods to it, then you have a Winged Wonder...
It's important to note that the Firebird was a hand made car, and came with all of the imprecision therein. Look at lots of parts on old cars and one side of a bolted joint will usually have room for adjustment to compensate. the first machine-made vehicle from GM where all of the bolt holes were the same on every single unit was none other than the Pontiac Fiero.
I’ve never thought of the Rigidity Upgrade in that sense. Definitely glad I found this video! Did you do a lap with Sport Soft tires? Interested in what that time would be.
It would still be better if they added a wing upgrade that looks about the same but added a decent amount of rear downforce. The front aero kit just won't be useful without it. I usually get the body rigidity upgrades but I'm always cautious on the widebody upgrade, not always sold on the look, plus I might want to test said cars top speed which should be better without the widebody
Rigidity is huge, but you also hit on something else important: most older cars need suspension travel. Hell, even in the 90s most cars tend to be kind of tippy-toed. If you pull all that travel out they simply can't grip
The reason the superbird and charger daytona were so dominant in nascar and at daytona 500etc, is because they had aero no other cars had. they actualy still handle really wel being a american car. my dad drove one once and you could feel the downforce do its job. they just were not made for the nürburgring. also the nascar cars were equiped with roll-cages providing more body stiffness ( same as the regidity upgrade). the only reason for the height of the rear wing was so the trunk could still open because the for some reason did not mount it on the trunk but the quater panels. the wing would do almost the same being lower than it is. y'all do need to keep in mind that it still is a video-game and not irl. also being an american car the factory commercial superbirds, daytona's and american cars in general had slopier steering and not like a modern german sports car made for the track that has little to any slop. these cars were made for diffrent kinds of racing than the merc so there is a reason y'all can't drive it that fast on the ring. they handle less good? (yes). they handle terrible(no), they just handle diffrent than modern cars.
Older car have softer suspension in Gran Turismo (This and Ruf Yellowbird for instance), and they have tendency to lose traction during braking, bodyroll during corner, and spin on the exit.
That's why if you wanna try them out on Nordschleife, its recommended to stiffen your suspension like any other car being tested there.
For reference, this car is now 6 seconds faster than a Pagani Zonda R’s original time of 6:47 seconds.
the amount of people who don't realize that old American cars drive like garbage without a lot of modification is hilarious. i had to replace every single suspension component on my 71 Chevelle just to get it to handle as well as a 1990 Camry.
Considering the Daytona and Superbird were never built for mass production... its said they didnt even produce the number needed to qualify as a "stock" car. They were literally built to do 200, just not as is from factory
That's completely and utterly wrong. They had to supply them to every dealership in the US. That's 1935 superbirds alone.