Are EVs Actually WORSE for the Environment?
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 4 มิ.ย. 2024
- Many believe that EVs have a bigger carbon footprint than gasoline-powered vehicles. Here's what we learned.
Read the full article at www.cnet.com/news/are-electri...
Sections:
00:00 -Intro
01:40 -Specifics on our Focus
02:46 -Why It’s Important (Greenhouse Gases/CO2 Emissions in US)
04:19 -Cars to Compare EV vs ICE Tesla Model 3 BMW M340i xDrive
05:45 -Why Location matters for EVs
06:48 -CO2 Outputs for Vehicles
08:00 -Battery Production
10:13 -EV miles driven to be efficient
11:06 -Conclusion
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Sources:
www.epa.gov/ghgemissions/draf...
www.epa.gov/system/files/docu...
www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/fas...
sdgs.un.org/sites/default/fil...
www.tesla.com/model3/design#o...
www.bmwusa.com/vehicles/3-ser...
www.epa.gov/egrid/power-profi...
www.aaroads.com/guides/oahu-h...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midwest...
www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find....
www.press.bmwgroup.com/united...
www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/label...
iopscience.iop.org/article/10...
changeit.app/blog/2021-03-26-...
www.transportenvironment.org/...
publications.anl.gov/anlpubs/...
www.kbb.com/car-advice/averag...
www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find....
theicct.org/sites/default/fil...
2021 Nature study comparing total emissions:
www.nature.com/articles/s4146...
EPA Power Profiles:
www.epa.gov/egrid/power-profi...
Tailpipe emissions calculator:
www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find....
Sources of emissions, shows that transportation is #1, and that light duty vehicles are the #1 contributor:
www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/fas...
Argonne model:
www.anl.gov/es/vision-model-d...
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You added a CO2 offset for the manufacturing of the EV battery but didn't take into account all of the additional parts in an ICE vehicle. They may not be equivalent to the battery pack, but they take a lot to manufacture, and over the life of the vehicle they require a lot more resources to maintain.
Good point. I love EV has way less maintenance because of environmental reasons and also because these dealerships rip-off consumers with service pricing.
That is true....no oil changes twice or three times a year, based on the ICE maintenance schedule. I drive a Chevy Volt and while it isn't a full EV...it requires less maintenance like oil changes (I do them annually) and other wear items like brake rotors and pads since regen does most of the braking.
@@325xitgrocgetter so you're just destroying your car. Great.
@@THESLlCK Check the maintenance schedule for the Volt...they can go up to two years without an oil change time wise....usually the Maintenance Minder is down to 50 percent when I change it....
I came away thinking the same thing after hearing the end of the comparison. It’s as if the ICE vehicles simply appear on the lots without a single gram of CO2 having been released to produce them.
Can we see a more accurate comparison taking in to account the manufacturing of combustion engine vehicles
Ya, there seemed to be a lot of focus of battery creation, but what about the environmental impacts of extracting oil from the ground, transporting it, refining it into gasoline, etc. Seems like the video is missing a lot of related data points.
@@dougclark8183 Agreed but then we would also need to take into account the environmental impact of mining rare earth minerals and their transportation, manufacturing solar cells etc. All comparable data points need to be included.
In all fairness the comparison should also include the manufacturing process of the entire ICE vehicle, the entire EV, the transportation of both, the average miles driven post covid -19 lockdowns (both working from home and not, less/more road trips, etc), and all the other factors that should be included in a true apples to oranges comparison. It's not just the manufacturing of the battery pack, but also the life of the vehicle, the ability(or inability) to repair said vehicle, the need to replace a part (like the battery pack) vs repairing said part, and everything else that goes into the ownership of a vehicle. Insurance, rebates, incentives, smog testing, inspections, subscription to supercharging, etc the list goes on and on. The fact that there are such endless possibilities of the amount of factors that should be included in a comparison between ICE and EVs will continue to making ANY comparison between the two types of vehicles difficult, period.
@@JS-wc4xs- Long but sweet. 🏆
@@JS-wc4xs Very well said, many proponents of EV's tend to forget that for the better part of a century ICE powered has had the choice of being repaired by anyone including the end user while EV's are being designed to make it that only the manufacturer can do repairs updates etc. Also the charging issue needs to be addressed we have as of today the Tesla, J1772, ChDeMO, and CCS too many connectors so charging while on the road is a challenge at best unless you spent the big bucks for a Tesla and there supercharger network.
Wouldn’t it be fair if you include how much CO2 is produced refining the oil to gasoline?
Would need to add the same for the 80% of electric production too right? Probably more evaporite emissions with gas vehicles, but net not much difference it would seem.
@@mweaver45 I don’t know if I understand your reply, but didn’t the video cover the electric production CO2 emissions for EV?
@@mweaver45 Nonsense, there's a huge difference. BEV CO2 battery production cost is done one time upfront.
The CO2 impact of oil extraction and gasoline refinement is reoccurring for gas vehicles, even before the gas is transported from the refinery to the pump. For "dirty" electrical power production, the delta between the gas production and comparative electrical demand narrows, but the BEV will still be cleaner.
How about the energy used to manufacture the engine and transmission for the BMW?
I get that there is essentially no "free lunch" to be had, but I do know one thing...Standing in a traffic jam surrounded by EVs vs ICE cars is undeniable win win...for me and for the environment.
When it come to passenger vehicles we just need to reduce idiotic commuting usage of cars. While commercial vehicles is still problematic and better systems need to be developed. Very true the best method is to reduce vehicle usage in the first place. But that is not viable in many cases you still need to change to BEVs in densely populated areas just to improve air quality which that alone is massively important.
@@Neojhun true that... this is a very good point..better public transit systems have to be developed..people who like to drive could occasionaly drive to work..that's what i did pre-covid times. i have a bike.. but mostly I used train or bus..but when I really feel that I need to ride, I take my bike to work for 2 days or so.. just like that. it was fun as my route had very less traffic jams.
@@jijokoshyksjijo3989 I grew up in Melbourne Aus. Which has a relatively good Public Transit system. It is famous for the biggest Tram (street cart) network in the world. I truly adore that form of transportation because it's on Rails yet operates like Bus has No Station and just drops you at your destination. That is true convenience when you get to a place faster and easily get to your destination. Kind of sad such systems is not more popular. I'm not talking about light rail with dedicated land.
@MrAbletospeak point taken. Thanks :). I'll be stuck from now on :)
@@Neojhun Trams that operate in the same road space as other vehicles are horrible; they need to have dedicated road space separated from other vehicles just like cyclists should have as well.
Did I miss the carbon foot print to produce gas (oil drilling and refining), seems that needs to be part of the calculating if we are doing the same for a battery that only produces that once when the battery is created verse refining all the time and oil drilling.
It's much more than that. Drilling, transporting the crude around the world, refining, transporting by rail pipe and truck to the station, the operation/electricity and staffing of gas stations. As a rule of thumb, for every gallon of gas that gets into your tank, it takes another gallon for it to find it's way there. Then it's all burnt up and goes into the air. We can't ignore the constant oil changes and other fluids that gas engines require. Then there are the oil spills.
True, but then we also need to take into account the carbon footprint & environmental impact of mining and transportation of rare earth minerals, manufacturing of solar cells, environmental cost of disposing used batteries etc.
@@darreng8084 True, but then we also need to take into account the carbon footprint & environmental impact of mining and transportation of rare earth minerals, manufacturing of solar cells, the environmental impact of disposing batteries etc.
@@monash4250 the difference is it happens all the time refining, vs once with battery. Also as recycling starts to happen there will be less mining. The point is we looked at a number of factors and the EV still does better at a CO2 footprint, and it would be even worse overall for ICE. We want to find the reason EVs are worse but don't factor in the things that ICE requires. That data is clear if you are willing to listen.
@@CraigMatsuura Some of the data is clear, the one big issue that you cannot get around is weight an EV with a large battery pack has a ton of weight committed to the battery pack it never goes away and therein contributes to more wear and tear to roads, tires etc. Right now the best way forward is to embrace both EV and hybrid.
An electricity generating power station running on petrol powering say 10,000 electric cars. Compared to 10,000 petrol cars the power station will use way less petrol for the same number of miles travelled.
You left out the co2 footprint from converting raw oil to gasoline.
Great in-depth analysis, and thanks to CNET for pulling it all together. One thing to consider. You covered the carbon cost of EV batteries, but what about the carbon cost of manufacturing parts for the petrol vehicles. I understand it's not a 1 to 1 comparison, and I know EV batteries are a factor, but there are other factors as well. Im sure it ends up being a rabbit hole type of scenario, but just looking for the most equal comparison. Would also love to see a state by state breakdown too. Thanks!
Yes that was unfair, PLUS while this video included the carbon footprint of the electricity used as fuel for an EV "including transmission losses" they assumed the BMW starts with a full tank of fuel that was somehow "carbonless" failed to include the carbon footprint of oil-extraction, pipelines, refineries, and final transportation of fuel in order to be able to pump it into the BMW. This not so insignificant "fueling" issue was not accounted for equally in this CNET assessment rendering is flawed and useless.
@@wopontour simple; use propane which is a by-product of natural gas extraction.
It would be interesting to also provide average life of the batteries in the EV before needing to be replaced and compared to similar life of consumables in a petroleum vehicle.
Ultimately people want something that is cheap to fuel and to maintain. Plus filling up at home with solar panels saves gas and home electricity. EV’s just need new tires every few years as low maintenance costs.
What about emissions from mining and smelting Fe/Al/other metals for gas engine and transmissions?
Gas engines used in the production of EVs?
I would love to see a follow-up considering the choice between keeping an existing gas vehicle vs a new ev. The cost to the environment in building a brand new ev in total vs keeping the gas vehicle I own on the road.
Now do the Honda Accord Hybrid or even better, the Toyota Camry Hybrid LE. Comparing a 350 hp sports sedan is a bit misleading...
Nope because most BEVs is are equivalent to a 300hp Sport Sedan. 200lb/ft realy should be the Bare Minimum for a 1.5 tonne BEV. You are the one forcing Apples vs Oragne comparison. Responsive Electric Performance is also a SAFETY Feature that does not cost much extra.
FYI Spark EV has 327 lb/ft and it weighs 1365kg.
A hybrid may be cheating, but a more reasonable comparison would be a ICE purchased with the intent of minimizing fuel consumption, such as a small 4 cylinder and/or something turbo charged.
Great video. A question. Since the production of the battery and electric energy is taken into account, for the gas carbon emission calculation is the carbon footprint of drilling the oil and refining the oil also taken into account?
Others have stated it. Gasoline powered cars typically use around 30,000 parts. EVs typically have about half that. An extra 15,000 parts per vehicle, primarily all in the engine compartment, has to have a large manufacturing Co2 footprint.
The question that I have is what do we do with all of the EV batteries at the end of their life? Will that have impact of the environment?
Sure. Heavy metals leaching happily away everywhere.
I agree, if you are going to take into account the cost of producing the battery pack, what is the CO2 cost of pumping, shipping and refining petroleum into gasoline? Plus if you want to be more detail, EVs does not require engine oil which adding the cost of production and recycling of engine oil will make the EV more green for the environment.
The gearbox do have oil so it's not a 100% elimination of petroleum products in there operation but is a great reduction.
@@chrisherbert4454 that is why I said engine oil, not transmission oil. Many productions specially plastics use petroleum. The world use of petroleum will never go away, hopefully just greatly reduce.
@@chrisherbert4454 Yep even Tesla Model 3 uses very light Engine Oil in it's TransAxel drive unit. But it's NEVER Burning HOT and introduction of containments is far less likely as nothing is being BURNT. The engine oil in a Tesla last several times than even an Abused neglected ICE car. Sure 100% is not viable but Relative ammount being used is Gigantic LESS.
Good review. I would have liked to see information regarding the mining and environmental impact for mining the internal combustion engine and some of the materials required for that (think Catalytic Converter). I think (I have not fact checked myself) that the environment impact of mining lithium ion batteries is steep, but the impact of mining resources for an internal combustion engine is not 0.
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A catalytic converter is a relatively small "tube," generally made out of ceramic, and it converts harmful gasses of the exhaust into something less toxic for the environment. Ceramic is made with materials like clay, water, and heat, and even though clay is an unrenewable resource, the process to dig and collect clay is far less damaging to the environment compared to lithium mining, a much rarer and tougher element. That being said, even though the construction of ICE cars produces less of a carbon footprint than building EVs, Electric cars are better for the environment in every other way. They're also boring as f***, but oh well.
ICE vehicles are not produced using child slave labor. That alone should end the conversation.
At the beginning of its life an EV is more harmful to the environment, but as you own it longer EVs get cleaner compared to ICE cars. Because the power grid is gets cleaner and you don't have as much maintenance, so less brake changes. Also no oil changes, transmission oil changes and air filters.
You'd better have a good home generator with plenty of gas stockpiled for the many power failures to come.
Like an air filter is some big deal. Any idiot can change it in two minutes. How often does a vehicle need transmission oil changes? Maybe two or three times in its lifetime. And today's ICE vehicles can go 5K to 10K miles between oil changes.
Might've missed it but I have three main issues that weren't addressed that favor EVs very significantly. 1) even if the CO2 emissions were equal for the entire life of the vehicle (which they're not), emitting CO2 where people ARE is probably the most harmful aspect that people should care about. Having more CO2 emissions in remote areas (some more remote than others) is better than CO2 emissions where we eat, sleep, work, walk, etc. 2) There's a much more clear path to cleaning up the electrical grid in terms of CO2 emissions (ie. nuclear plants, renewables, etc). However there's not much more improvements that can be made for ICE vehicles. 3) Oil production/drilling is limited and we will run out one day. At least batteries can be recycled and repurposed. This is why investing in the future of ICE vehicles is not wise and we should instead invest in improving our electrical grid infrastructure and energy production methods.
WOAH! Since you are adding in the CO2 crated in making the TESLA battery pack how about ALSO figuring in the CO2 created in making the BMW's power train?
The web article had a "Circular Energy Storage" link you referenced. It describes 20% of the carbon to be from cell production itself. Tesla Gigafactory (where they produce the model 3 battery packs) is powered by 100% renewables. Also, did you subtract the production of the ICE components not present in the EV?
The math will also get much better as over time new EV batteries come more and more from recycled old EV batteries.
Nice job, but seems like the long term solution is to make electricity generation cleaner, and more renewable like solar and use renewable to make the solar panels 😊
This is a great video. I'm starting to do my research to determine the best course for my next vehicle. One factor that wasn't considered, possibly because this is perhaps not 'carbon footprint' related, are the effects of waste from battery manufacturing and disposal. I've heard anecdotally, not read peer reviewed research, stating that the waste from battery manufacturing and disposal is significant.
The batteries in an EV last quite long and after that it mostly gets reused in himebbattery storage. Only after it has completely died will it be almost totally recycled. Tesla already recycle all their in house batteries used in testing vehicles etc
the best course for your next vehicle is a 2.5 turbo petrol engine
@@Luciano-mx7sm How so?
@@brewcity53207 because if u want to drive a real car a petrol engine is the answer. beside that,can you charge the car at home? do you have a charger at work? what happened if you have to drive 300 miles on a trip with ac on and 4 people in the car?
@@Luciano-mx7sm I don't understand what you mean by a "real car"? Like it's a masculinity thing? I'm not really too concerned about that being a problem.
To do a fair comparison the manufacturing process of both EVs and ICE vehicles must be considered. There are significant environmental implications with gasoline production as well as lithium and cobalt mining for EVs. While these may not directly impact the end consumer in North America, cobalt and lithium mining has enormous impacts to the ecosystem where these activities take place.
Battery degradation cannot be ignored as the CO2 savings in year one may not be as significant in year five, six or seven.
Maintenance cost should also be considered as both have varying maintenance needs each with their own implications. With traditional ICE vehicles the consequences are quite apparent however with EVs the larger weight of the vehicle will create additional brake and tire wear resulting in these items needing to be replaced more frequently.
Additionally there needs to be a conversation about the end of life implications of both EVs and ICE vehicles and whether one has a materially greater environmental impact vs. the other. In other words, the full production cycle and vehicle life cycle should be factored in, hopefully we'll see a part two to this.
Interested to know if hydrogen fuel cell vehicles could be the real answer to this issue.
The worst part is that fast charging WASTES most of the electricity!! A gas poweredpower plant has a thermal efficiency of about 35%. losses in the input and output transformers and the transmission line where you plug into the outlet the output is between 15 and 20%!!!! The there is the tremendous LOSS if you charge quickly!!! If you charge in 1 hour the efficiency is 5.88%, in 15 minutes it is ONLY 0.3675%!!! This is really STUPID!!!!
CARB lies about EV efficiency, In their ARB/MSD/&-6-94 they claim that battery efficiency is 80% and the motor is 90%. These are LIES!!!! Every time the motor starts it and the system efficiency are almost ZERO!!!!! So it depends on how many stops are made!!!!
There are a lot of errors and bad assumptions in the video. If you're using Alaska as the state in which you're driving in, then the distance that the gas travels by truck to the gas station would be a fraction of the distance it traveled in Wisconsin.
The range of the EV is greatly reduced in a state like Alaska too. Making the CO2 number different for the tesla.
@@JS-wc4xs Max 25% difference for EV range loss. Relative to the difference ICE is more CO2 intensive it's negligible to the end result.
All the money going into EV infrastructure should have gone into rezoning and redevelopment of major cities so that we can walk, bike, or take public transit to most places.
And I say that as a car / motorcycle enthusiast. No one is saying to tear up the PCH or ACH, but I shouldn't have to sit in 405 traffic just to get to work, electric car or not.
Rishab, I agree with you. It would be nice if people in general would be willing to do that. But most people I know, don't care for green public transportation. They want to go from A to B fast. I live in rural NC and you have to have a car to go anywhere since there is no easy or possible reliable way to set up public transportation. In most of the US everything is too far away.
Amen!
The real question is what happens to all the batteries that can no longer hold a charge? in 7-8 years. You can recycle the metal from a combustion engine, and you're left with oil (which can also be recycled).
Those toxic chemicals and waste will go where humans want them to go. The technology already exists to contain lead, mercury, and cadmium when recycling batteries and it is improving by the year to the point that in about 20 years the need for mining will be reduced substantially. All the other mineral and elements in a EV battery are fully recyclable even after being used as second-life batteries. One nice thing about EV battery cells is, they find a second use in stationary grid storage. When there are enough of them to create a market, they will be recycled to reclaim the valuable metals just like any other high volume appliance does nowadays.
I don't know if they're worse for the environment, but replacing the entire global fleet of billions of vehicles with EVs will sure create a "carbon footprint" the size of a brontosaurus, just through the mining, manufacturing, etc etc.
Also the batteries are closed loop recyclable there needs to be a further calculation for that. Next generation battery will be less Co2 intensive?
A few observations on this. First, the Model 3 minus its battery pack is 700lbs lighter (23%) than the BMW, so you can't assume the only CO2 difference is the batter pack. This should give the Tesla {23%?) less CO2 before adding extra emissions from battery pack production. Second, catalytic converters have precious's metals (Rh, Pt, Pd) that are associated with notoriously polluting mining practices. This should add CO2 to the BMW footprint. Finally, its takes an estimated 3kw of electricity to put 1g of gasoline in your car (oil well to gas pump) on average. This adds CO2 to the BMW as well. In summary, this analysis shows with worst case scenarios that BEVs are much better than ICEVs when it comes to full life cycle CO2 emissions but in actuality it's much better.
10:04 but how much energy is required to manufacture and assemble a gas bmw?
The EPA is not a neutral observer and their figures are often way off and created to prolong climate hysteria. In reality carbon dioxide does not drive temperature, and adding more CO2 to our atmosphere only makes plants grow bigger, faster, and more resistant to drought. The toxic pollution caused by battery production is no laughing matter and often ignored by the "green" political establishment. The bottom line is that wind and solar projects are worthless, and actually counterproductive, and electric cars are a very long way from being efficient. The climate hysteria religion the masses have fallen for cannot last. What people should be worried about is the cost of food, the erosion of topsoil due to biofuel production, and our absolutely insane drive to start World War III over the needless expansion of NATO. The world needs peace and low cost food. Everything Biden is doing is raising the cost of food, creating more homeless people, and bringing the world closer to nuclear holocaust.
Why don’t take into account the amount of co2 emissions for extracting and processions the fuel for ICE vehicles?
How about GHG emissions at refinery where the gasoline for that BMW is generated ? You did not include it in your analysis.
So then, where do hybrids fall in the mix? I would like to see this covered in a future video.
Gigafactories are solar powered so the carbon footprint is lower than estimated. You'd also need to include the carbon footprint of making the BMWs engine, which includes mining the steel, smelting it, and machining it.
Mining (equipment), loading (excavators), transporting (trains, ships), unloading (excavators) the coal are worse that the same operations with the high energy density/fluid fuel that can be carried through pipelines over long distance and can be handled with pipes and pumps over short distances. Then there are several levels of up voltage conversion (transformers), losses on power lines and then several levels of down conversions (all with their own losses). Then there are all the controllers for battery charging, motor controls and the fact that the electric motors are dependent too on rpm and torque, efficiency wise. The battery itself, the motors and the controllers are liquid cooled because charging and discharging is not 100% efficient. All the numbers given by the EV industriy are suspicious, and the ones that are really bad are kept secret.
Also also keep in mind the co2 cost of the infrastructure that is required if evs are becoming adapted. We need better electric nets and more charging units which all require a ton of steel and oil to produce.
What about recycling. An ice car is nearly 100% recyclable. Elec car batteries are not. I believe it's less then 75%. They go into a dump above ot below ground. Much like depleted uranium rods are buried for a millenia underground. What happens when we have to start storing millions of car batteries. Where they decay into the environment?
All that gas you burned driving that ice vehicle into the ground isn't recyclable either... Assuming that you drive 180 thousand miles on that ice at 30 MPG, that's 6000 gallons of gas that will not be recycled, not counting all the gas that was burned getting that gas from the oil field to your local gas station.
Wrong. EV batteries are near 100% recyclable.
That was an excellent video. Could you then do a comparison of the life of the car? Because the battery landfill would be much larger with a Tesla for example. How then is the life of the car impact the environment in comparison? Is it still better?
Used EV batteries can be reused for domestic energy storage. A house doesn’t care how much 100kWh of energy storageweighs the way a car does, so even used EV batteries that have degraded 50% can be repurposed relatively cheaply to store excess solar or wind energy and then release it at night or when the wind is calm. And with that kind of use, batteries can last for decades.
@@Antenox And let's not forget batteries are 100% recyclable - they don't have to be disposed of after their useful life is over.
@@ColinFox The 100% recycle rate is for lead acid batteries only to be clear LiPo's are around 50 to 90% depending on the source and the study in time we may hit that 100% number but we are not there yet.
@@chrisherbert4454 We don't need to yet because reuse is a better option. We won't need to actually recycle batteries for another couple of decades.
the reason i didn't get a ev a few months ago was simple no chargers in my area for the leaf and the bolt was under that big recall.
Did you factor in the carbon output generated during the manufacturing of petroleum?
I’d like to see further evaluation on the byproducts of each motor transportation. The byproduct of an internal combustion engine is CO2, water and heat. Other than oil how do you spell recycled, what other waste products either other than CO2? In contrast, we do not know the environmental impacts of used lithium ion batteries, which could be detrimental to the environment long-term
A fair comparison would has to be on the differences. Outside the basics, wheels, interior, body, etc... If you are going to look at the battery manufacturing CO2 (minerals and metals), you also have to look at the minerals and metals used in the fabrication of the engine, tank, spark plugs, oil and lubricants, transmission, oil filter, air filter, etc for the a period of 10 or 15 years (the equivalent of the battery life expectancy). Also, it has to include the CO2 of the exploration of oil, its pumping, storage, transport to a refinery, the refining of oil into gasoline, storage, transport to s distribution center, transportation to a gas station all the way to the energy used to pump the gasoline and operation of the gas station. If you are comparing CO2 of electricity production, you have to compare the CO2 of each drop of gasoline going into the tank along with all the other consumables of the gasoline car CO2 emissions. I remember seeing production numbers of 6 to 9 liters of gas consumed (depending where the oil is produced (Canada tar sands for example 9 or more while Saud Arabia 6)
I have an ICE vehicle that uses propane fuel; emissions check shows minimal carbon dioxide, zero particulates.
in order to fight the environmental problems that we are facing, the world needs more than just 'electric'. We need more and various types of sustainable energies that suit different kinds of areas..and I'm happy that people and companies are putting effort into it.. 😌
I would like an impact study on the millions of pounds of batteries that we will have to find a home for when they have expired. I’m not sure how many pounds of batteries are in each vehicle, but I’m guessing it’s somewhere around 4 to 500 pounds. With millions of cars Sold each year that will hit their end of life at the same time, I’m guessing there is going to be a huge problem with lithium batteries in the environment in our future
Another easy factor to add is the disposal of the battery.
I wish the maintenance of Gasoline Vehicle included the maintenance ( oil changes, coolant, differential fluid, brake fluid, etc )
Thanks for the analysis good to know.
Thank you for doing this and identifying your data sources. Your assessment did not appear to include CO2 generated in production of motor and transmission as well as mining of materials used. Plus impact from the oil used in these parts over life of vehicle.
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We have heard for a good number of years, It's not If, but When the usa power grid will fail. 'Nuff said.
You failed to take in to account the CO2 cost of running an internal combustion engine, (super tankers that ship oil run on heavy fuel oil themselves), and the cost of refining that oil into gasoline to run an ICE engine as well as all of the trucks that slurp diesel to ship the refined gasoline to the gas stations. Want to try that again?
@Fake NameWant me to get my facts straight? Sure, here goes: According to the USGS, (United States Geological Survey), the world's volcanoes, both on land and undersea, generate about 200 million tons of CO2 annually. Our automotive and industrial activities cause some 24 billion tons of CO2 emissions every year worldwide. Greenhouse emissions from volcanoes comprise less than 1% of those generated by today's human endeavors.
Happy?
What about cost to operate over those first 2-3 years and the carbon footprint of the maintenance? And I believe the end-of-life for a petroleum station starts out as an environmental reclamation. That's a lot of bulldozers!
The best solution would be full hybrid diesel cars. Like a Prius but with a manual or automatic gearbox, not a CVT and a clean contemporary diesel engine.
I'm very interested in the sources of the carbon emissions in the process of the battery pack production, and to what extent the electrification of that process can reduce that footprint as well
A good start, but what about the CO2 production from oil refining? That is listed as the second largest CO2 source after power generation. If we are comparing the CO2 impact of battery manufacturing, then it is only fair to add in the impact of creating gasoline.
EVs are made thanks to slave labor. Child slave labor.
End of conversation.
There are two huge problems.
1. Reliability and right to repair: there's no way in hell that an electric car can last as long as a good ICE car. And even if so, no one knows how to work on them except for the dealerships. Because companies are gritty and they want to have control over the cars that they sell. And guess what? That creates a huge junkyard of these beautiful electric cars that are just useless. And then what? You gotta buy another one. More resources for a new car. Planned obsolescence.
2. Resources: There's no way that there's enough lithium on earth to put in the batteries for all the cars that people will need if we're one day gonna go all electric. It's just not physically possible. It'll destroy the planet till we mine all the lithium that we need to put in cars. And you might say well they're gonna get recycled and reused. Which is not exactly the way it goes. There might be a significant amount of lithium that's being recycled (on a good day) but a big part of them will not. And also a significant amount will be lost in fires/accidents. There's a lot of variables that aren't considered here.
Fun fact: here in California, 60% of electricity comes from non-carbon sources, with a goal of 90% by 2035.
You have not mentioned the mountains of obsolete lithium batteries after their end of life. It will be the biggest problem for EV cars.
The funny part is Alaska is super red yet they get their energy from the most renewable. Also, they are so pro oil too and that's a large sum of their exports.
Ironically a Garage Queen Ferrari V12 may have less environmental impact than some EVs if it's basically never driven. But that is not plausible for extreme majority of vehicles.
The comparison with the BMW, although apples to apples, misses the point of electrification - we need to compare total EV emissions (i.e. Tesla model3) with the average emissions of a gas car. I'm willing to best most people don't drive a BMW 3 series, so the comparison in the video doesn't really help us understand what would happen if everyone switches to an EV.
It would be necessary to include data on the CO2 expended extracting oil from the ground, transporting that oil to the refineries to be refined into their constituent fuels such as gasoline, diesel, kerosene, etc. Then, the transportation of the fuel to the fueling stations throughout America. The estimate provided seems for too small for the given example. I don't think there is even one gasoline refinery in the state of Wisconsin, let alone the mid-west. So given the provided example, the number is actually an incorrect estimate to start-- one that is far too conservative for the given example. The refueling has to occur with regular frequency (about once a week for the average American). Also, the above does not account for other emissions that are dangerous to biological lifeforms such as NOx emissions, carbon monoxide, formaldehyde, benzene, hydrocarbons, among other environmental pollutants expelled from combustion engines. Not to mention the oil, grease, and other fluids required to operate a combustion vehicle that have their own polluting effects over time with great regularlarity. Hmmm. 3 years to break even on CO2 emissions, well, seems quite generous, even for the most dirty part of the American electric grid. This is also a moving target as America's energy grid continues to employ more clean/renewable energy sources over time.
Very professional, unbiased, and informative. Great video.
What about the environmental cost after the battery is no longer any good or if the car is in an accident and gets totaled. What about the pollution caused by the weight of the car and the quicker wear on the tires and the brakes. Does the math used assume that the electric car is getting the mileage quoted by the manufacturer? Did you take weather into account and the loss of range due to cold weather? How about the impact of all the tow trucks picking up electric cars that ran out of juice? What about all the labor and human impact to mine the minerals? What about the all the repair vehicles that will be servicing the charging stations? This comparison seems highly biased.
"1 gallon of gas to get it to the car" and while you looked into battery materail extration for lithium and its impact you did not really do a like compariosn for fossil fuels. Electricity has to be used to extract it from the ground, to pump it. then vast amount of energy to refine it and transport it by fuel tankers in some cases by sea and land, to just burn it in a losey engine. its just not in the same ball park.
EVs are approximately 1% of the 250 million cars on the road today. What would happen to the electric grid as more and more EVs are sold especially with big government incentives both fed and state, I'm thinking CA that already has rolling blackouts?
Are you worried about people running their home A/C or doing laundry? If so, EVs aren't the problem.
Let's do some math! If the average daily commute is 40 miles and an EV can do 3 miles per kWh, then it's 13kWh daily to recharge the car, or about 2-3 hours of running home air conditioning or 2-3 loads of laundry.
FAIL! The same technology could be used to PREVENT CA having Rolling Blackouts. It's literally ENERGY STORAGE technology. Which the Cali electric grid currently lacks.
LIES like yours is what happens when Uneducated easily brainwashed people spread RUMORs about ENEGINEERING & Technology.
The fact is all cars are damaging environment more or less. It is better to use public transport as much as possible to save environment
Thanks for an excellent video and the start answered everything, the minute you start an ice car you are dumping pollutants into the atmosphere, enough said brother!
Now factor in the resources needed to keep the renewable components working at optimum levels.
most amazing thing about this video is this guys hair
I used to live in Alaska. It takes much more energy to charge and maintain batteries in this cold environment, often they do not last as long. I would suggest people research deeper into this issue, beyond what this pro electric video has to offer.
What about battery disposal?
How you going to recycle Burnt Gasoline?
At least a large proportion of the battery can be recycle. Just not 100% anytime soon.
You still need a battery for a gasoline vehicle 🤷🏽♂️
@@jeremiahbryant123 The battery is significantly different and smaller.
Excellent comparison, but if we are calculating carbon footprint of battery, why don't we do footprint for ICE engine, catalytic converter, muffler, transmission, etc as surely it is significant. We rarely see the carbon footprint of making an ICE vehicle.
1 big mistake you made is thinking that the EPA is not biased
You also are not factoring in the disposable of the batteries this is a whole new environmental problem that will be a disaster
Big point----soon we will have a hell of a lot of batteries to recycle----look around to see who is doing it now---and the impact of those lovely ingredients. We can't recycle plastic bags now--so don't Sugarfoot the numbers!. The other item---how about looking at 75 mph efficiency- personally lose 40%
Unlike plastic bags, the materials in a Battery are VALUABLE. It's all about $$$ Incentives. Soo your argument is logically flawed.
You forget to consider and mention that Tesla batteries from 2013, just 10 years ago folks, have deteriorated and suffer from substantial capacity loss and that the efficiency is no longer satisfactory or even safe for owners. A new battery means you are starting the 5500g deficit all over again in just 10 years! Remind me the safe uninhabited area where we dump giant Tesla batteries again? Meanwhile, the BMW's emissions systems are still, "like new" or in "good condition".
What about recycling? How much carbon footprint does each produce when they reach the end of their lives?
From your circular chart charging EVs quickly means the power plants will have to burn at least 100 times as much as they do now!!!
AND... disposal carbon costs?
Two factors that are missing are 1) the life expectancy of the vehicles, and the environmental impact of overall chassis production and disposal. One issue I see with EVs is their uncertain life span and lack of battery pack replacement. While the EV may be environmentally less-unfriendly than a ICE-V during its operation, the question remains as to its EOL environmental cost, particularly if it is not as reparable/recyclable as a comparable ICE-V.
Realistically, all vehicles, particularly in the U.S. are disposable commodities, albeit expensive ones. Yes, we are no longer “New-Every-Two,” but cars depreciate in a relatively short time period. One potential advantage of EVs is that the drive train could last decades, but for the battery. If this could be overcome, with the EV chassis being a long-lived, upgradable unit, then the argument is solidly in the EV’s favor.
Nope Lifespan is very well known, stop spreading falsehoods. Rav4 EV from 1990s averaged about 16 years for secure power output from is partially dead battery. That was Air Cooled large format NiMH. Modern BEVs with Liquid Cooled & Heated Lithium Ion is not much better around the same life span. Due to supply chain problems part few years the median age for Scrapped Junk Cars is just Under 20 years. Soo BEVs & ICE passenger cars basically have the same life span. But here is the massive benefit of BEVs. During that lfiespan you can easily wracked up 300,000 Miles with far less Parts Replacement & Consumables. Fact is the Life Expectacy argument is MOOT.
In regards to keeping the drivetrain in service for decades that's a pipe dream manufacturers are going to lean into planned obsolescence hard. Tesla, John Deere, Apple, One Wheel, Toyota have all been very much against right to repair so to think there going to forgo future income for the greater good is a great dream but is only that a dream.
@@Neojhun Citations or didn’t happen. A 1200 unit 1997 launch with a different battery chemistry is not predictive. The longest running EV’s currently on the road are the Model S , which launched in 2012. So, with only 10 years of large scale real world testing, one can hardly make any real comment on the lifespan of the battery.
@@chrisherbert4454 While, I agree with you in part, the reality is that the average age of rolling chassis and drive trains for ICE-V has been steadily increasing (IIRC, it stands around 11 years now). Since upgrades on a price-per-component basis can produce higher profits, it seems that this would be a market that manufacturers would be foolish to ignore. Also, with at least one recent EV introducing a monthly battery rental charge (don’t get me started on that scam), it seems that at least one manufacturer is recognizing that there is a profitable path in some sort of upgrade scheme.
@@detritus23 Yep buy the car and lease ahem... rent this battery pack it's a great product trust us 🤡 anyone remember Daewoo Cars thinking that this company is going to be a repeat of their performance.
What about taking into account manufacturing???
Although this is a rough and ready comparison, it still comes to a very strong and clear conclusion - EVs are definitively better for the environment. There are some more thorough Life Cycle Assessments out there if anyone is interested, for example from Volvo / Polestar.
Nope the Volvo report based on their own specific Factory that does more ICE cars than BEVs is not acceptable. That is clearly not geared towards BEVs and a conflict of interest. That is a infamous study from Volvo which has now been refuted.
@@Neojhun LCAs are always going to be very specific to the location they are designed around. The results would for sure have been even more favourable to electric had it been on a bespoke electric car platform rather than XC40, but I would suggest the methodology is still valid.
How about the disposing of the battery packs at the cars end of life?
The CO2 emissions of transporting oil from it's source to the oil station was missed. And here the worst case scenario is importing oil from the middle east. And in this case it's not just once.
I think that was a decent rough comparison. But there are a few major issues that remain. Battery Disposal? Environmental impacts of the rare earth mineral mines, Battery Pack Replacement and oh yeah, no new hydro and likely a significant reduction in the U.S. Very little new wind coming on now and solar has severe limitations in it's current formats. There is simply not enough electricity and not nearly enough renewable to now or in the foreseeable future to actually power the expected fleet. The share of renewable energy has remained fairly consistent in the last several years.
Not to mention wind and solar isn't on demand.
Regarding "...there is simply not enough electricity..." I'm not sure what your source was, but all the studies I''ve seen say just the opposite -- that there is quite enough generation. (The transmission grid is another matter, having suffered years of neglect and now straining under the loads *created* by climate change.) Moreover, car charging is kind of the ideal load from a utility's point of view since most EV charging occurs overnight. In the future, owners will even be able to opt-in to programs which tell ev's to delay charging when the grid is stressed and the owner isn't in a hurry, and some vehicles will be able to sell power back to the grid during a high-priced hour. The video did EV's a disservice by estimating battery manufacture emissions but not petroleum mining, transport, and (especially) refining emissions. As to "not nearly enough renewables ...foreseeable future" -- that future is foreseen in countless papers and plans. What kind of future is foreseen if we keep doing what we're doing?
To do a fair comparison the manufacturing process of both EVs and ICE vehicles must be considered. There are significant environmental implications with gasoline production as well as lithium and cobalt mining. While these may not directly impact the end consumer in North America, cobalt and lithium mining has enormous impacts to the ecosystem where these activities take place.
Battery degradation cannot be ignored as the CO2 savings in year one may not be as significant in year five, six or seven.
Maintenance cost should also be considered as both have varying maintenance needs each with their own implications. With traditional ICE vehicles the consequences are quite apparent however with EVs the larger weight of the vehicle will create additional brake and tire wear resulting in these items needing to be replaced more frequently.
Additionally there needs to be a conversation about the end of life implications of both EVs and ICE vehicles and whether one has a materially greater environmental impact vs. the other. In other words, the full production cycle and vehicle life cycle should be factored in, hopefully we'll see a part two to this.
The data here was quite lacklustre. Too many assumptions, too many things not factored in, for both cars.
As a person that works in the oil industry, you haven't take in to consideration the amount of carbon that is produced from these Mines and the refineries not to mention distribution. The equipment that I operated went through over 1000 gallons of diesel every day. That just 1 truck .
You should atleast talk about EV battery disposal system and how it impacts the environment.
looks like a 90s mr2 with enkei rpf1s
Are EVs Actually WORSE for the Environment? No.
Excellent video. Now that Chevy has dropped the price of the Bolt/EUV below $30k it would be nice to see you do the same analysis comparing the Chevy to a comparably priced ICE vehicle.
Ok, How about we use a 2004 Honda Insight that costs $3000. Why does the vehicle have to be new?
short answer yes
why not factor in the manufacturing impact on the environment of the BMW?
Cooley counterpoint coming in 3,2,1..
Ahh and it will be great he really seems to be able to speak to both sides of this landscape quite well.
the fatal flaw in EV's is simple: right now, a paltry 3% of new cars sold are EV's. what kind of grid will we need when 80% are electric? there is no amount of renewables that will be able to serve all of those, and no chance the highways wont be absolutely clogged with lines trying to charge these things. what about the installation, manufacture and maintenance of all of these "green" power systems? the cost will also be staggering. the long term solution for a fraction of the cost is biofuel research and distribution. this EV stuff is also only for non-weight sensitive scenarios like cars and trucks. you cannot have an EV powered boat (or not practically anyway) or long range jets. batteries just have terrible power density, and are already randomly catching on fire. 80% of rare earth mines are owned by communist china as well. this is going to be horrible for the environment. what about war zones and emergency services that need to charge? ain't gonna happen my friends.