How Ion Propulsion, Lifters and Ionocrafts Work
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 26 ส.ค. 2024
- How ion propulsion in lifters, my Star Trek Enterprise model and other ionocrafts work, basically how ion wind works in these types of devices. This shows how the electric field between a sharp object connected to a smooth object cause movement in the direction of the sharp object and an ion wind in the opposite direction. To create this electric field I use my homemade high voltage power supply.
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See also:
Star Trek Enterprise Model with Ion Propulsion added
• Star Trek Enterprise M...
How to Make/Build a Lifter or Ionocraft
• How to Make/Build a Li...
How to Make Piezoelectric Crystal Speaker
• How to Make Piezoelect...
And more...
How to Make 30kV High Voltage DC Power Supply
• How to Make 30kV High ...
Make Ionocraft/Ion Wind Spinning Disks
• Make Ionocraft/Ion Win...
Lifter Voltage/Current and Smoke/Aiflow Test Measurements
• Lifter Voltage/Current...
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3D drawing and animation done using Blender 2.63.
Music used throughout:
Bicycle Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
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Great explanation and great animations! Your videos just keep getting better and better! Nice work!
Thanks! The animations are a lot of fun to do.
InstaBlaster
This is a great explanation. Read about lifters in a visual novel recently that didn't really give an explanation as to how it worked or even what it is. This fills that gap perfectly.
So the big question is, can an ion lifter produce enough lift to carry its own high voltage power supply, some passengers, a bathroom, a kitchen, and a living room?
Hsfh Fejtpo you would have to make one. I was thinking of using solar panels, batteries, and a custom transformer.
They use them in space on satellites with a liquified gas where gravity isnt a factor.
The military does
Sure. Just scale it up.
Yes. If you could produce enough power... We'll probably have to wait for fusion.
Earlier on I decided I wanted to learn exactly how ion propulsion works. Thanks for uploading this
You're welcome. Glad to hear it was timely.
A wonderful, compelling explanation. Well done!
great explanation
Thanks.
Great physics explanation! The rollerblades analogy was a nice touch.
Thanks for all of your ultra-high-quality videos--it is rare to find someone who has the gift of true teaching (which requires core knowledge of the subject). This allows others with the potential to excel quickly. After studying your "how ion propulsion works" video, I would like to ask your opinion on something. I have the requirement to set up TWO independent spark gaps--one, let's say points north-south, and the other east-west. They are at about the same level and will intersect each other, however, their high voltage power supply's are 100% isolated capacitors, no common grounds, etc. I would like to ensure that if the two arcs fire simultaneously that no electrical connection or current path will be present--sort of like light or sound,i.e once passed the "region of crossing" it is as if neither was aware the other existed!! Any ideas on this construction?
Thanks MUCH,
--dalE
+dale nassar Unfortunately sparks are not like light. If I understand you correctly, I don't see how this can work. Each sphere will spark to the one closest to it that is at the opposite polarity.
The fast-moving ions produce the corona discharge from the point of drag air molecules along to create the electrical windand since the luminous portion of the flame is positively charged maybe
Great explanation and also great to see you are still working with these devices. I see you still have my old PDFs on your site :) If you want to collaborate on making a stronger force, let me know and we can see if we can come up with some ideas.
Leon Tribe Thanks. Great hearing from you again. From what I can tell from analytics, your PDFs still get some looking over each month. I'm not really working on these devices anymore, I'm more showing them to people who've never seen them before.
Great explanation
Well then... when I was younger, I built a remake of Rimsterorg's ion lifter, but I never knew you needed high voltage. I USED A HALF DEAD 9 VOLT BATTERY!!!
Great video
That reminds me to change my DILITHIUM CRYSTALS. Thanks.
Outstanding Sir. Great explanation. My electric shop teacher told us about the "theory " of thi back in 1974, making a working model is another story. 73 OM
They have made a drone using this method
Technology is fucking amazing!
th-cam.com/video/UGM4JXVB5FM/w-d-xo.html
Thanks so very much, that was the most clear and easy to digest information about ion propulsion I have ever heard, mere words cannot express my sincere gratitude to you. Big smiles from me to you!! 😊
P.s. I have already made one lifter type in the past without much success but with this added information I'm most certain I can do it now.
It's not just about sharp & smooth, but also about charge distribution , with the wire the charge is concentrated promoting ionization, whilst the collector electrode has a larger surface area which doesn't promote ionization.
Amazing video.
The action Lab made a video about ion propulsion and I wanted to know more, so here I am :)
In 2003 Thomas Bader and Chris Farzi worked together to examine the Biefeld-Brown effect by first reproducing the effect and reviewing the history through patents held by Brown. Several theories were tested and proposed, with quick theoretical calculations to determine whether the theory was sufficient to provide the force necessary for the thrust noticed by operating ionocraft. A conclusion is reached that the Ionic wind force is too small is reached by assuming that the particles being propelled are electrons. This assumption would suggest that a small force would be noticed in a vacuum since the electrons could come from the emitter on the ionocraft. Using the following two equations:
1/2mv^2 =qV
where m is the mass of the moving particle, v is the velocity of that particle, q is the charge on the particle, and V is the voltage across the asymmetric capacitor. This is the kinetic energy of the particles being moved around by the electric field.
F=mv*i/q
Assuming collisions are completely elastic the change in momentum is calculated as above. The variables are the same as before with I being the current flowing across the capacitor. This also assumes that none of the particles collide with the collector.
Combining these equations they conclude that the force is 5 orders of magnitude too small to be the cause.
Dude.
Unbelievably well explained.
You're the next Bill Nye ; )
David Hart Nye is a hack
The movie star?
Nye doesn't know shit
Thaks , its a really helpfull explanation !
Best video explanation 👍👍👍👍
Wonderful explanation.
That video was so good maybe the best one I seen in sometime, years ago I seen I guy make a big one of them in he's garage ever since then I always wanted to know if that was real, because it looked like magic lol
Nice style of explaining.
Great video!
Great video! Thanks for explaining this, but I'm really curious how switching the polarity works. Would electrons be pushed towards the smooth end and cause ionic wind?
Brainscrawler Roughly speaking, yes. See starting here en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corona_discharge#Mechanism_of_corona_discharge for more about the differences between the positive and negative coronas.
Pressure Mediation based in frequency and bandwidth...
No particles involved...
Makes me think of brushed motor to brushless,..then to rail gun,... Inverted to "ion" thruster... (Sympathetic resonant magnetic drive)
Nice video
The best explanation ever.
very very very didactic!!! thank you!!!
best channel bro
very nice video.
I find this fascinating. I believe that the wheel is holding us back. We seem to be at a standstill. Keep at it I believe you are on to something very big maybe not in my life time I am 70. But wouldn't be amazing if this teck worked incredibly well in the waitress state of space
This is the first time I seen anyone who knew what they were talking about, Most people are clueless when it comes to this stuff
But since I agree with your principles and know of it and am not involved with this type of thrust, but maybe after I finish my research, here's something you may be able to incorporate into your thrust-er as an experiment.
I'm researching constant magnetic acceleration, Now I would suggest to see if you could build a set of magnetic coils that encompass the one end or through the whole accelerating chamber .a number of small coils to accelerate the flow of ions,
Do that to see if it will increase the speed of movement of your vehicle. It would be interesting to know what effect this would have on acceleration etc.
Keep thinking and let me know what happens if you do it.
Well yea it would because the more your wrap a coil the stronger the magnetic field and thus higher voltage. More voltage more current per second. Current is electrons adn the electrons bumb into atoms making ions.
Thank you, It's very clear comments!
great thanks✌
Really nice explanation
This tech is amazing
I should have come across this years ago
Sir, that is remarkable presentation, thank you.
Great explanation but I have a few questions.
1.) Is the propulsion activated by the positively charged ions that are headed back to the positive source after collision with the neutral atoms?
2.) If the fields were reversed, how will that affect the atoms in order to get the same result?
Thanks.
1) Yes. That collision is what pushes on the electric field that the positive ions are a part of. That's what causes the propulsion.
2) It's too much detail for a comment but if the fields were reversed then the details would be a little different but the effect and the direction of the motion would be the same.
There are two ways (that I know of) to maybe improve the thrust ratio, 1.using a magnetic field to increase the rate of flow of ions 2.using an enclosed space like a long flat box with openings at each end & at the front end two wires, the first nearest the opening is positively charged to encourage molecular clustering Nitrogen & Oxygen naturally occur in deuto or diatomic forms, then the second wire is negatively charged to encourage repulsion between the air atoms which may make the flow to the collector electrode at the other end faster producing more thrust.
يجب أن يتحد المخترعون وكل من ساهم في تطوير تقنية تكاثر أيونات البلازما الأيونية لتطوير هذا المستقبل لتقنية البلازما الأيونية لإنقاذ العالم من الاحتباس الحراري وتلوث الهواء والضوضاء التي تدمر العالم!
Is the electric wind sufficient to lift the lifter ? One thing is to prop the enterprise suspended to a crane and that doesnt move so fast, another thing is to have the sufficient amount of force applied on the lifter to couter his weight ... some mesures ?
Very good job on the video.
Refreshing! Especially if you just watched zombo TV box.
So this is possible to do on a dc circuit. Are there any formulas available gor this kind of device?
This circuit is DC. However, it's high voltage DC. As for formulas, there are but I don't have any off-hand. I know Peek's law is often used en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peek%27s_law.
Wondering how I my ion propelled Enterprise worked? Or how a lifter or other ionocraft works? All is revealed in this new video. Enjoy!
why do you tie your lifter? infact almost all the ionocraft videos ive seen, the lifter has been taped/tied to the ground quite closely. why not just let it fly straight up then lower the voltage and get it down ?
EpicBunty
The three sides of a lifter produce varying thrust in different amounts. Since there's no independent control for each side, if the lifter weren't tied down then it would fly erratically all over the place, within the limits of the feed wires. So the thrust is turned up such that the threads are all being pulled tightly. That means that two sides are thrusting more than they need to be and the third side is thrusting just enough to keep the threads on that side tight.
i thought so!
how erratic is it ? I'm sure with a little bit of experimenting and tinkering you can make a model which flies stably.. right? or have you not played around enough ?
EpicBunty
It can be very erratic. I've played around a lot because you often have to do that just to get it so that all sides are thrusting enough just to get off the ground. It appears as though the more sides you have, the more stable you can get it. I guess many more sides averages out the differences in different areas. So the lifters made up of many triangles tend to be more stable. But I've still never seen anyone be able to remove the threads.
wow! thanks for the info.
If you ever do end up finding a video of a stable lifter, mind sending me a link ?
Which Trek episide guys? The one that first mentioned Ion propulsion!
Great explanation,
How much volts of electricity is needed? And how to prevent any electric hazard ??
For the lifter, I needed around 25,000 volts. My ammeter wasn't in the correct range so I couldn't measure the current but it's a relatively high current. You can see me measuring in this video here th-cam.com/video/LOGAaObsN4g/w-d-xo.html . Regarding safety, see near the end of my how-to-make a lifter video where I show the use of discharging the power supply and lifter after turning it off th-cam.com/video/vzZy1Aqleno/w-d-xo.html . There are of course safety precautions to take while it's flying, like staying away from it.
@@RimstarOrg Thanks a lot gentleman! 😊
That was awesome 👌 👏 😎
Great explanation Thank you!
good music too
Here in 2022, the tech has advanced and there is currently a company working to make a drone powered by ionic propulsion. They’ve had success and are working on tuning the tech to accompany for fine control
what about creating a shield and injecting free ions in the direction of travel???
Brilliantly explained, thanks
Very nice shall we do it wireless ?
The analogy of pulling apart a piece of bread while wearing rollerblades was really helpful to create a mental picture of how boring my life must be to have watched that video in its entirety.
Kudos 👏
Given that the propulsion is reliant on pushing air molecules, this device should not move in vacuum, correct?
Correct, or at least not using ion propulsion. Other things like off-gassing, ejecting electrons, ejection of matter due to sparks, and attraction to the vacuum chamber parts can cause it to move, though if it does, it moves much more slowly.
Ion propulsion is used in the vacuum and zero gravity of space though. The Dawn spacecraft currently orbiting the asteroid Ceres used an ion thruster to get there. It carried along Xenon gas for the propellant.
thanks!
Wow, would have never known
This video helped me a lot, thank you.
Thanks for your high quality videos andr
explanation
The fast moving ions produced in the corona discharge oh i see
4:35 yes that is what i was thinking ...! 🤔🤔
But in space there's no neutral atoms other then that which exists in the chamber so what for this case ?
Extremely well-explained!
Does the geometric proportions and/or elemental property, structure and state have an influence?
What about the charge applied, does Voltage and frequency have a role? ie; 220V, 113mHz Poloyphase charge used to create a resonant signal sympathetic to that of the atmospheric gas being targeted? Or is the regular form of AC applied at, or above relevant thresholds adequate? I feel as though we are still creating crude and horribly inefficient proof of concepts.
Am thinking a crystalline metal such as bismuth (or what ever suits the particular nature of energy transfer) is a good starting point, furthered by accurate geometrical properties.
Further advancement from;
Accurate wave form adaptation to facilitate a reversible, self amplification characteristic to be implemented.
Thrust multiplication of thrust by application of force and/or wave forms -ultrasonic, microwave / alfven waves. Then refinement of such incorporations as indicative by environment, not mathematical guesswork.
And so on...
In 100 years these engines could advance in o the point that our best working models look no better than the wright brothers flight.
Holy wow!
Very well explained! Thanks for posting!
Thanks! Glad you like it!
Now I have to build one that I can rid around on!!! :)
It will not work in a vacuum? Didn't they test lifters in a vacuum in the original Bielfield-Brown experiments? I read the propulsion effect is stronger in a vacuum. Can you please elaborate.
Excellent explanation of ion propulsion. So seeing your smoke sticks at the end means it still needs something to push off of…in this case air right? You probably know where I’m going with this…
That's what I describe at 4:26.
I don't know about air temperature between the electrodes but I think buoyancy forces also may generate air flows in favor of propulsion.
I've never measured the temperature in the region of lifters. I imagine surfaces at least would be cooler than ambient due to all the air flow.
The electric field does create propultion. Still air isn't moving. Then it gets ionized and then it is accelerated by the electric field, by F=ma=eE. By Newton's third law this causes craft to be accelerated in the opposite direction. However you gave the the answer why my calculations predicted ridiculous amounts of power required (Gigawatts). I forgot the factor in the fact that charged atoms will bump into each other and you won't lose the ions created in 100ns (or something on that order).
More on the acceleration thing. Situation should be discribed by taking a bowling ball and throwing it (or 10^13 ions in case of the craft).
If controlling this would be erratic, that just means you have to think bigger and smarter!
First we have to solve the problem with energy.
If this craft can bend the air around it, I wouldn't be surprised if it could do exactly the same in space as well.
Enough power and we could very well be up and away in a flash with near light speed, isn't this how fast atoms travels?
The posibillity of this making every one of us able to understand and create our own craft, is huge.
This makes all the rambling about UFO's even more likely as well, because those who understand, must have made their own craft already. We are on to something good, I know that much.
I really want to make 1
Would This same experiment work in space?
I think the Coanda Effect comes into play on the rounded surface and the ions flow around the outside in a skin effect.
I agree. The Coanda effect definitely can come into play as I've seen it in my video here at three minutes in th-cam.com/video/x5dyIIpnE0Y/w-d-xo.html where I do a smoke demonstration.
what is the top speed promised from this technique at it's hypothetical perfection lvl? 99.999% light speed?
Please give us details about the power supply; voltage and amperage needed.
For the lifter, I use this power supply th-cam.com/video/GEuK1OdYxHk/w-d-xo.html (but the proper flyback and multiplier have gotten hard to find) or this one th-cam.com/video/r32e0QGdm8U/w-d-xo.html or you can buy one from here www.amazing1.com/. It has to be at least 25,000 volts DC but I don't know how much current, usually between 250 microamps and around 1 milliamp I think. See this video where I do measurements th-cam.com/video/LOGAaObsN4g/w-d-xo.html
I'm assuming it's not as efficient as a physical propeller or impeller, but still, very, very interesting mechanics at work.
Fantastic video!
Nicely done thank you.
Thanks.
hi if you make this a bigger engine do you get any electrical discharge "lightning bolts" i mean i work on plasma propulsion ideas. one i have is a plasma reactor rocket engine . a magnetron generating plasma from silicon dioxide that gets drawn to a dc magnet, then a cathode ray fires electrons at it to overload the plasma field. a plasma explosion equal to a combustion chamber of a rocket to create thrust. and a plasma turbojet doing the same thing . the pressure from the electrical/plasma explosion for thrust and to spin a turbine to bring in more plasma.
What are your thought on in atmosphere propulsion. It clearly works on a small scale but given an adequate power supply would it be possible for say small air craft?
A rough number is that there's a voltage of 100 volts for every meter of height through the atmosphere. And that varies depending on all sorts of things: nearby objects, humidity, air density, wind, ... So you'd need a tall aircraft to get the voltage. Then there's the question of how much charge is in the air, which also varies. That's extremely small. From Feynman's Lectures, volume II, 9-2, the current density (charge moving under the influence of that voltage) is around 10 micro micro amps crossing each square meter parallel to the earth. So I'd say it wouldn't work for a small aircraft.
THKS
Is that how real UFO works ? Thank you shearing but can you create without those cord for our daily use ?
No, a UFO can fly through space which is a vacume, these ion propulsion systems need air to work
Thank you !
isn't this the biefeld brown effect?? I want to make a lifter around 40ft in radius and able of getting to the speed of light..
Have you ever measured the pull when the lifter is active...does the size (dimensions) work better or increase lift the smaller the distance is between he sides of the equilateral triangle? Do the sides have to be rolled towards the inside or can the be either direction? Does the height (from top to bottom) matter as well, the higher the height of the AL the more lift... I've got so many questions on what the variables are....
shaun adlesperger A very long time ago I did these tests for the pullrimstar.org/sdprop/testrigs/shielded_scale.htmbut the only variable I tested was the affect on voltage. Higher voltage meant more lift. But I suspect a smaller and smaller distance will increase lift, but only until you start sparking, in which case it'll stop flying.The sides can be rolled in either direction, it doesn't matter. Just minimize the sharp edges at the top of the foil.The height of the foil only matters if it gets so short that the bottom edge starts acting like a top edge and you now have a sharp edge near the top, negating the fact that you rolled the real top edge. But that'd have to be pretty short.
Whats the voltage needed to make this work?
That depends on what you're powering. My lifter required around 25,000V and around 1 milliamp. You can see me measuring it in this video th-cam.com/video/LOGAaObsN4g/w-d-xo.html. The sharpness of the point, or points, the smoothness of the smooth electrode, and the distance between the electrodes are the main factors. In the lifter, the sharp point was the thin, bare 30 gauge (AWG) wire.
Can you recommend a cheap power source? Thanks
If it's a lifter you want to fly then no. It needs a fairly powerful high voltage DC power source so it's not cheap (www.amazing1.com/hv-dc-power-supplies.html). You could try making one. Mine is this one rimstar.org/equip/30kv_pwr_supply.htm but it still needs a lower voltage power supply to feed it. Also, it's hard to find the type of flyback transformer that it uses. It has to be one that doesn't have a built in diode and all the ones these days have built in diodes.
Ok thanks. But if you want to make a Enterprise model thing is the voltage any lower?
Actually, I've never measured the high voltage required for any spinning setup, including the Enterprise model so It's hard to say what voltage or current is needed in those cases. The fact that you can make an Enterprise model spin horizontally like I did but there's no way you'd be able to make it go vertical (too heavy) doesn't mean it's using less power. It may in fact be using more.
I just compared the AC voltage on the VARIAC meter dial and the DC voltage output going to the high voltage power supply at 2 minutes and 11 seconds into the Enterprise video (th-cam.com/video/x5dyIIpnE0Y/w-d-xo.html) and the same for flying a lifter at 8 minutes and 35 seconds into my HV power supply video (th-cam.com/video/GEuK1OdYxHk/w-d-xo.html) and the Enterprise needed much more: around 13 VDC going to the high voltage power supply versus 8 VDC.
But I used the same power supply in both cases, just giving it more power for the Enterprise.
Note that the voltage may actually be the same, just that the current is higher to produce more ions. That's why I say more power.
Really awesome!
5:10 you push to move neutral atoms that are coming from where, in the case of the vacuum of space?
In the vacuum of space you'd need to provide the neutral atoms yourself. Often xenon gas is used for ion engines in spacecraft in space.
@@RimstarOrg yes i got it..we provide them...so in other words we eject particles right?
Hi interesting, and first I'd like to thank you for the awesome, to the point, easy to understand and informative video.
I'm wondering how much power we're talking when it comes to moving an object using ionic thrust per any measure of weight?
I don't have any numbers for that. I have trouble measuring the current so I can't calculate power.
Thank you! Long time I thought that propulsion in the lifter is caused by some mysterious force. Now I have one less unexplained physical phenomena:)
Excellent explanation! Does this create ozone or any other dangerous gases while it's working?
Ionization created using high voltage can produce ozone. My lifter work at around 25,000 volts and that's high enough to produce ozone. So yes, it does.
ok so i was looking at hydrogen combustion engines and i was wondering if vaporizing the water exhaust and venting it through a system like this for the ions to push against would be better than just blowing it out through a pipe as waste
If I understand you correctly, you're talking about maybe adding an extra push to your wheeled vehicle by using this propulsion. If so, it probably wouldn't be worth it, the thrust is very, very low. The lifter that flies using it weighs only around 2 grams. When ion propulsion is used in space (by using xenon gas as the propellant), the spacecraft accelerate very slowly, have no air in the way like on Earth and have now ground as friction.
Hi Rimstar. Attempted ionic lifter but NO lift.. just some hissing sound and wind..... I connected to my high voltage flyback transformer: positive and negative terminals to the lifter.... ( thin copper wire and smooth aluminium side.
What could be the issues???
A flyback transformer outputs AC. A lifter needs either DC or pulsed DC and won't work with AC. My power supply have a voltage multiplier after the flyback transformer. The voltage multiplier both steps up the voltage and converts the AC to DC. I have some additional tips and tricks to getting it to work on my webpage here rimstar.org/sdprop/lifter/lifter.htm in case you modify your power supply.
@@RimstarOrg I got the flyback transformer from an old cathode TV which is the same as a computer monitor right??
Ah, I see. So chances are that your flyback transformer has a built in diode(s) which turns it into DC or pulsed DC. Though there's a slight chance that it doesn't and so you'd be getting AC out but if there was a thick wire coming out of the flyback and going directly up to the TV's cathode ray tube then it probably does have the diode(s). That would be something like my Cube power supply th-cam.com/video/-KFhBVfpfDw/w-d-xo.html which does have the diode. I tried that one with a lifter and it didn't lift. My guess is that the voltage was too low. My lifter lifts off at around 25,000 volts ( th-cam.com/video/LOGAaObsN4g/w-d-xo.html ) and my Cube power supply's transformers heat up too much when putting out only around 20,000 volts. One of the tips I talk about (the best one) on the webpage I linked to in my previous comment is to try it in the dark and look for the corona between the wire and the foil skirt. If you don't get the corona then your voltage isn't high enough. If you get the corona in only one spot then you're only getting lift at that one spot.
higher efficiencies seem to occur when the negative is the blunt electrode. This is because sharp ones release electrons to the gasses, creating a source of current loss and giving electrons back to positive ions, neutralizing them once again. Little difference, nonetheless.
Does the thin wire need to be bare, or can you use something like enamel insulated wire? Thanks.
Due to the strong electric field around the wire, the thin enamel coating will likely breakdown but if it does, it'll likely be in one spot. Once corona is leaking out of that spot, the electric field overall will be weaker and it won't be emitting in other places. That's my guess anyway. It likely won't fly. There are tricks for removing enamel from wire though. Do a search for how to remove enamel from wire.
When the postively charged atom collides with the neutral atom it produces force in the opposite direction but won't it be slowed down by the postive charge present at the sharp section
It will. But it doesn't matter. That's the point I was trying to make starting at 4:33. The positive ion isn't physically a part of the electrodes but it is a part of them if you consider the electric field. So since the positive ion is effectively a part of the electrodes, any changes with them doesn't have any net effect. The neutral atom, meanwhile, is not a part of that system and so it can affect it.
Thank you understood
This explains that aircraft i seen in flight with no wings or noise...square in shape.. power source @ the bottom metallic liquid spheres..??