I've mentioned this before, but you need exponential spacing. You are trying to accelerate a 2.8 column of air with another 2.8 stream input. Because you want external entrainment, you might consider an exponential horn housing. Each 2.8 input would force more air into a smaller space, increasing the speed. Alternatively, each thruster could be exponentially increased in power, to use the same level of input more efficiently. So like cut the first one in half, raise the last one by double. Without external entrainment, you could change the distance between anode and cathode to accelerate the same stream successively but with increased speed each time. The first one would be closest, and the second one twice as separated, but since the air is already moving, the ions would travel much faster covering the doubled distance in the same time.
I don’t think that will behave as you mentioned. Not sure this system can compress air. But would be worth testing. Likely why he did not see much improvement when doing the spacing. Would love to see a 15” version of this.
I really think you need to switch to static thrust measurement as a method of comparing efficiency rather than output velocity alone. For example, you might be seeing the same 2.8 meters per second output on two designs with the same power but one could have way more thrust than the other due to the surface area of the output. You might also have a design with lower velocity that is far more efficient than one with higher. You kinda touched on this with liters of flow but a thrust stand will provide more accurate information. Grams of static thrust per watt is the gold standard of measured efficiency. You should be making more than 1 gram per watt from what I know about ionic thrusters. 4 grams per watt is the highest I’ve ever heard of from research papers.
Awesome work! Here are some improvements i suggest: - measure grams of thrust per watt instead of airspeed - focus mainly on achieving max thrust at a certain size - use a single tube design with no holes in the sides of the design to simplify aerodynamics and testing Robust design like you did was really smart, hope you continue with the ionic thurster. Would love to see this on rc planes or even table fans in the future
"use a single tube design with no holes in the sides of the design to simplify aerodynamics and testing" The concept he is applying is to pull air in from the sides & push it to the center.
@@guytech7310 Couldn't agree more, he is not concentrating on the thrust, which is the absolute problem with this type of propulsion, messing around with all the other superfluous aspects is kind of lazy, but I know why he's doing that, it's easier than tackling the hard issue and it satisfies the easily impressed viewers out there, so, meh, I wouldn't call any of this really interesting or intriguing. For example if you look at another unrelated channel, ah "Tech. Ingredients" I think it's called, a father and son team who tackle all manner of projects those guys REALLY dig into the science and do respectable work.
Could you imagine the power bill of such a fan compared to a typical 10-20W fan? Sucking down 100W of power just to have a small breeze with chance of electrical shock lol.
@PlasmaChannel iv been trying to explain the basics of my advanced aerospace to you for many many years and though my plasma thruster is very different you miss one major aspect in the technology. You have no pressure chamber around the thruster.... to explain it quick you have a pressure chamber but small scale for yours uses an elastic balloon. The thruster will need a skeleton around it for the deflated balloon to go around. One end of the balloon has a intake valve that can only suck air in from the thruster intake. On the other end you need a pressure valve that will release at a specific calculated pressure needed to launch it... have the thruster work and inflate the balloon building pressure that will fill it to desired pressure the the valve releases and as that happens thrust the thruster full power and it will utilize the pressure thrust combined with the thrusters thrust.. to cool it down so it does not melt the balloon use very cold helium gas dispersed into the plasma field but u think you should be good. Mine uses a metal pressure chamber at high pressures using hot plasma cooled down using very cold helium gas. The balloon method would be good to experiment with before using metal pressure chamber and a thruster that can produce dangerous pressures.
Okay hear me out. If you're not going to do it, I might. Consider the following: - A wing profile is revolved radially, such that you end up with a wing profile that's disk shaped. - The disk is initially stationary with air surrounding the disk. - Underneath the disk wing, there's 'zero' radial velocity, indicating high pressure. - Above the wing, there's non-zero radial velocity of air, indicating low pressure. - The radial velocity of air above the wing is induced by plasma. - The electrodes are circular rings placed on top of the disk, where the inner ring has a smaller diameter than the outer ring, such that air flow radially from in to out. - The disk is made using CNC and is supposed to be extremely lightweight, i.e. EPS foam (non-flammable) density of about 30 kg/m3. Preferable thin-walled, perhaps with ribs if there's low stiffness. - Downward 'Wingtips' around the disk's edge could be used to properly separate the high and low pressures. - You could use a wing profile that has a very high Cl, i.e. high lift at low speed, since Cl does not rely on airspeed. - You could subdivide the disk into 4 parts, where each quarter's potential difference can be manipulated, which could help in allowing you to steer. The idea is to create a solid velocity difference between top and bottom surfaces, to create a strong lift force, where the bottom velocity is essentially zero (stand still). Relying on Bernoulli's principle we can determine the lift force. For a simple rectangular plate with area 'A' being in air with density rho, the lift force Fl = 1/2 * rho * A * (Vtop^2 - Vbot^2). I've done quick calculations. Considering your and others previous work, I think it's viable starting at ~45 kV. if we can achieve similar airflow speeds, I think we could create the first actual hovering UFO drone that doesn't rely on moving parts. Some other notes: - There should be sufficient airflow, such that a 'boundary' layer is formed between the high and low pressure zones. Such that air doesn't leak towards the low pressure zone - Use foam that is preferably fire-retardant, since the plasma may ignite the foam. EPS should be suitable, XPS possibly not. - Preferably use foam or another lightweight material for the electrodes. Paint it with graphite spray and use electroplating to make some seriously lightweight electrodes. - One conclusion I had from watching your videos, is that the air speed doesn't necessarily increase with multiple stages. But it does help in creating a more uniform flow over a larger volume or area. Using multiple electrode rings may create a very uniform flow field above the disk. Been thinking about this for quite some time, and I am thinking about doing it as a hobby project, but I think this would fit your Channel a lot better and if it works out, it's a world's first! (not considering Aliens did it before we did, lol.)
This is a good situation to explore. You may want to check out my ionic thrust wing I recently invent/built. It’s about 5 videos back. I designed it that way so as to Introduce a permanent velocity difference between top and bottom, creating lift even when the wing is at zero velocity horizontally. Incorporating that into a UFO shape has potential- though - that air has to come from somewhere. If all the radial ionic segments blast air outward on the top, it means the air must come from a center column in the middle of the top. This does introduce significant drag interaction between air above and top of ufo surface.
@PlasmaChannel, I appreciate your response. I've watched the video, and it's definitely a step in the right direction. If it could be made more lightweight, perhaps it could already achieve flight. I'm uncertain about the 'refill source' of the air. It could be drawn in from the center top of the disk, or perhaps it's sucked in over the entire top surface. I've been pondering about this. While it seems logical that the majority is drawn in from the center due to the direction of flow, if we consider air molecules being 'pushed' away locally by the plasma, it makes me wonder why the void wouldn't replenish locally either (thus 'refilling' air across the entire surface). But that could indeed be a replenishment due to the flow itself. Perhaps you could check the inflow velocity of your plasma fan. Is it close to zero, or is there obvious suction? Edit: watching your wing video again, there's obvious suction. So it would make sense it comes from the top center. Regarding drag, the initial goal is to create a hovering disk, achieving a force balance. Considering the suction from the middle, I'm unsure of the drag's significance. My intuition says it's relatively little compared to the lift generated. However, this largely depends on how air is drawn in, the surface area affected by drag, and the interaction of the moving air molecules with the disk (vector of the molecules). That's why I'm quite eager to see if it would even work experimentally. And if it fails, it'd be a succesful failure, since in the end it's a learning experience. The primary objective should be achieving a force balance for sustained hovering. The lift force could significantly surpass the weight, especially if lightweight materials like foam are used. If there's sufficient margin, it may also handle the drag, who's order of magnitude is yet unknown. Exploring its dynamic behavior, it's obvious that rapid acceleration/speeds won't be achievable due to the significant frontal area of the disk. Please keep it mind; I'm eager to see where the wing design leads! :)
Consider the Hal effect thruster: 1) Add a strong electromagnet at outlet of the thruster to generate an electron vortex. 2) Place mini electron guns around the outer rim of the thruster outlet to generate electrons for a virtual cathode 3) Place a large anode (looking like a v-spike engine) within the housing of your thruster 4) At the front end of your thruster, place the necessary support structures for the anode + wiring, be sure to leave most of the front end opened for intake 5) Use your original thruster to provide slightly ionized air to the thrust chamber
Just a reality check: at 4m/s and a cross-sectional area of about 100cm2 you're putting about 0.3W of power into the air; for a 70W input. Because energy rises as velocity squared the second stage of your first prototype is actually _more_ efficient than the first. To maximize thrust efficiency you actually want to move a large volume of air slowly rather than a small volume fast, something ionic thrusters might be suited to. However, due to the nature of ionic acceleration much of the energy input is going into rotational/vibrational states of the molecules rather than velocity, so it's unlikely ionic thrusters will ever be efficient enough to compete with, say, a propeller. But still fun stuff, thanks for posting.
His structures are basic structures. With more research, better material, and material structures, it will improve. For example, toroidal fins are structure improvements, and it will happen for ionic thrusters, too
@@dennisalbert6115 Iterative refinements like that historically get you improvements of a factor of a few, eventually. If you're starting with a system that is about 0.5% efficient then you're not a factor of a few short of where you need to be in order to be competitive, you're a couple of orders of magnitude behind. At that point you either need a radical change to the entire approach, or just accept that atmospheric ionic thrusters are a very, very cool scientific curiosity but not really a viable form of propulsion.
@@BooBaddyBig If turning electrical energy into thrust by moving air is the objective then nothing else comes even close to a brushless DC motor turning a well matched propeller, on more or less any performance metric you choose (except perhaps for low noise). Buying some off the shelf FPV drone motors and marvelling at how good they are wouldn't make for compelling content, though. Plasma Channel is sticking with atmospheric ionic thrusters because building very cool high voltage physics toys and making well produced videos about them is what he does, and he's very good at it. I just wish he would be more honest that that is what he's doing (as he is in a lot of his other videos), rather than wrapping it up in the "I'm inventing the future of aerospace" schtick.
Great input! I know the pursuit is nearly pointless - ionic thrust will never compete with propellers on efficiency. Then again, I’m not going for efficiency. If I can design a thruster that uses 5 times the power of a propeller system (currently it needs more power than that haha), I’d still consider it a win. Because as battery densities continue to increase, as small scale nuclear becomes a reality, energy requirements for electrical apparatus aren’t going to matter much. So I’m focusing more on the improvement of thrusters approach, less on the trying to actually beat a propeller approach, Great input
Dude, a second Channel of just you recording the process of you designing and building the prototypes in long form, like an hour or even longer, would be mad and you’d be able to get a video out sooner, less editing needed because it’s a second channel video, no music is really needed, just pure analysis and prototyping. I’d love to see how you do your process and how your brain works. I often say you can see Adam savages brain work on the outside as he builds things. And I love the rawness of the content.
@@PlasmaChannelyour 3D modeling skills are off the charts, that's for sure! Your brain never shuts down when you're designing this stuff! Awesome designs... We commoners could never understand the hours you put into this. Thanks for being who you are. 👍
@@PlasmaChannel Nature doesn't do angles. Since most if not all of your ideas and designs are coming from nature (Think about that for a moment), I would suggest you take the shape design of the MKII and the concept of the MKIII and combine the 2. In other words make the MKIII round with 4 sections per circular ring at the same 22 degree inclination.
Better yet, if he records the process for said second channel, that can lighten the recording load for the main channel, albeit increasing the recording and editing load as a whole.
As a British child of the 80s, my schooling and life even now (I work for American firms a lot and also with electronics), which is a blend or should i say, confusing mixture of metric and imperial. Britain STILL measures weights in metric measurements in metres, CM, MM, inches, feet, and miles. Road speed, distances, and consumption are ALL miles and gallons (UK). PCBs are fun as "mil" in Europe/metric is an abbreviation of Millimetre. "Thou" is 1/1000 of an inch. In American Imperial, "mil" is 1/1000 of an inch. So when I lived in San Jose I had to choose my words very carefully. We will never lose the mixture of both until ALL nations switch and industry follows....which I doubt will ever happen.
It's more about stubborn pride, and misguided Patriotism than anything that the United States clings to bastardized Imperial units. The cost of converting would be a mere $400 Million dollars or so, but then we could not say we are Special to the World anymore. lol
better help is a horible company taking advantage of people at their worst. Iv been unsubing and refusing to watch videos aponsored by them. Hopefully you will drop them as a sponsor because your content is quite good.
This is just A Little Thanks For ALL of The Awesome Science you have done in The Past ... You have some Experiments which I would LOVE To Try, but for now guess I will just have to watch you do from here
I have been designing air ducts recently, and one of the very important things is to not restrict the air flow rapidly. For the best results it's best to stay under 10 degrees of restriction. Keep up the good work!
Sorry Jay in 2018 MIT did NOT build the "world's first ionic thrust airplane," or "aircraft" as they stated in their paper. Although it was the first traditionally shaped such vehicle, there is an earlier more efficient ion propelled aircraft that does carry its power supply onboard. There are approximately 45 videos of the earlier series of ion propelled aircrafts on my TH-cam channel that create much more thrust per watt and were patented for lifting their onboard power supplies entirely with ion propulsion! All of these crafts are capable of self-contained VTOL as well as horizontal flight. They are extraordinarily well verified and documented to fly carrying their own onboard ion propulsion systems. They were designed in a particular way because it was challenging to get them to lift their own power supplies with ion propulsion. I think creating ion thrusters that are capable of lifting themselves vertically, as well as horizontally, have much more potential because this really is a form of ion rocket and will be capable of very high ISPs when operated in a vacuum, (in that case with added propellant). The ion thrusters I built have wing shaped collectors and so can produce aerodynamic lift as well when used in atmosphere without added propellant. There are already solar cells available that will enable these Ion Propelled Vehicles to fly all day long in the near future.
@@extraziadeh NASA has been making heavy solar ion propelled spacecraft for years, such as the Dawn spacecraft etc. To power a terrestrial or air breathing ion thruster with a greater than 1 to 1 thrust ratio and with solar power, you can use my designs and utilize "Perovskite" solar cell films. There are lightweight aircrafts that were flown with these types of cells, but the cells were custom made, challenging to get ahold of, have a short lifetime, and are expensive. Perovskite solar film can be much more powerful by weight than the lithium polymer batteries I have been using. The commercial versions that I know of are pre-encapsulated aren't light enough.
@@randomsomeguy156 That's kinda shitty behavior against the guy in my opinion, it's not like he's at fault for a shitty company, probably don't even know about this, but do whatever you want, your choice anyway
STOP! Do not seek an actor's position. You control your own channel and you are happy now! Best format ever, you know what you are doing. Keep growing your channel and business. You are doing very well! You need to go the CERN now!
@@PlasmaChannelDo you know how awful BetterHelp actually is? You should really read up on their shortcomings as a therapy service. It’s irresponsible to advertise their service.
@@PlasmaChannel It might be a good idea to read some of the papers that are open access on the subject, if you haven't already. There are a huge amount of variables, not just lateral spacing of the individual thrusters but also vertical spacing, as well as voltage comparisons, spacing between the anode and cathode, pin vs wire ionization etc. It might be a little too in depth for what you're going for, but if you are working on pushing the technology looking at what other people are working on in the field would be beneficial, it's not just MIT either there are Chinese papers as well.
1) They need to still be circular. They can be segmented...1/3 or 1/4 circle for each thruster, but a round interior will create smoother airflow and offer larger internal area for objects to fit through without compromising volume. 2) You'll need to find a way to more smoothly merge the flows so that they compound one another. As it is, currently, they're slamming into each other and losing energy. They're not blending together to improve flow, and they're losing velocity in the process. My recommendation would be to find a way to offset the thrusters at an angle, laterally. Instead of merely tilting them so their exhaust is pointed inward, also tilt them so that flow is off-centered, to create a vortex. Then they shouldn't be slamming into one another, but more like merging on a highway.
3:15 the second and 3rd stage only increased the velcity by approx 50% and 25 % respectively is about the fact that E=1/2 m*v² . So doubleing in speed is 4 times the Energy. So each station approx lifts the same amount of power(aka 50W)
@@pimvanduijne it's not about the sponsorship, it's about the fact that that sponsorship is betterhelp. betterhelp makes no guarantee that your therapist will be licensed or educated, and it's not actually as cost effective as getting a licensed one for less time.
Amazing! You're part way to a turbine engine with no moving parts. It's possible there is turbulence happening between each stage as you're compressing air and then running the next stage at the same size. It might make sense to reduce and move the 2nd stage to the size of the covergance point of the first stage. Not sure of the 3 stage, maybe the same or go larger than the first stage, like and afterburner, with a case the diameter of the largest stage, assuming it ultimately needs to be fit as such in a plane. Also, redesigning it circular as opposed to triangular will reduce internal turbulance, adding a slight twist to the blades to create a vortex should also stabilize airflow. Just spit balling, you're doing great stuff.❤
Your explanations and commentary are excellent. Awesome video and project. Edit: I do agree with some of the other commentators that some of the revelations about BetterHelp's data policies deserve scrutiny and push back. Hopefully you can find more responsible sponsorship partners moving forward.
10:15 I could be wrong, but it seems to me that this design would create a great deal of internal turbulence and restrict the flow. Suggestions: First - Reduce electrode segment lengths and add more of them to change from a triangular shape to an octagonal shape (closer to a circle). Second - Angle them both inward toward the central axis (like you are) and to create circulation around the central axis (closer to your ionic tornado) I believe this should reduce the clashing of air columns (10:19) that create turbulence and improve the airflow to increase the output pressure.
There's really no channel I consistently follow every single video EXCEPT for this channel. I love this project and I'm here for this the whole thing. Can't wait for the next update
@@PlasmaChannel I agree with the sentiment that @rafaelgutierrez3630 expressed but will add that there is one other channel that I treat the same way and maybe others here haven't yet discovered... TechIngredients, like your channel is very much a "new video posted. I click!" channel. Both of your channels are amazing and I would LOVE to see a collaboration! Keep up the great work. 👍🏻
High speed vortex why not, but I tried to design this for a water propeller, and you would need Lorentz force = weird magnets placement… Basically you would need a magnetic field that goes to the center (hence the rod), and a way to attract it to a focused point in the back + a “venturi” style system could be interesting as the air would be pulled in the vortex… I would try this if i had high voltages and strong magnets…
@@VandalIO How would you feel about not just having your data sold in a capacity I still don't understand doesn't violate HIPPA standards, the "help" you receive _might_ come from someone the credentials they advertised but probably not since licensure is all state by state (good luck if you're outside the US), and have fun finding someone able to maintain even the basics since the underpaid "therapists" they employ are expected to have turn around times faster than some insurance companies mandate. Sure, they may not be as bad as asylums from the 1940s, but I wouldn't say that's a compliment.
@@VandalIO Hilarious YT censored this. Anyway- How would you feel about not just having your data sold in a capacity I still don't understand doesn't violate HIPPA standards, the "help" you receive _might_ come from someone the credentials they advertised but probably not since licensure is all state by state (good luck if you're outside the US), and have fun finding someone able to maintain even the basics since the underpaid "therapists" they employ are expected to have turn around times faster than some insurance companies mandate. Sure, they may not be as bad as asylums from the 1940s, but I wouldn't say that's a compliment.
I've heard people who work these kinds of services are incentivized to rope you in to staying on for long periods to rack up charges and get you to come back for more. They get penalized if they fail to rack up the charges. The same applies to those working psychic hotlines.
Hey fellas, gravitymasterinfinity here from the New Energy Concepts group, Tachyon Aerospace, TorusTech, etc. Anyway, Jay, I enjoy the passion you have for plasma physics and the effort you put into your builds, as well as your enthusiastic presentations. Since you have put so much effort into this direction of experimental inquiry-which is no small feat of epistemological exercise, being both mentally straining and time-consuming-it’s refreshing to see that even though your results were not much different than your last configuration of the thruster, you gracefully accepted the possibility that the natural world and its rhythms may contain a better science than your textbooks suggest so dogmatically. A very good example to those following the same path. Good show, old man! Now I'm going to turn over the apple cart and disrupt the money changers in the temple of established science that may or may not reside within those things with which you identify or give credence to for validation of all you have accomplished so far. But then again, I do think you know more than what you let on; perhaps not, but I'm sure I'll be crucified in the thread nonetheless for my blasphemies against the egregore of socially reinforced agreement of a set reality as concrete and unchanging as the status quo. I begin: The term "thruster" is misleading; there is no thrust occurring as one would typically understand it. Instead, we must consider a transformative perspective on ion propulsion. I’m excited to share that I have completed the first stages of a workable transdimensional engineering framework. This framework includes Python simulations and a suite of programs designed to test technologies built around these principles. As we turn away from this outdated notion of ion thrust as a mere wind-conquering machine, we embark on a journey toward understanding its deeper implications. This shift invites us to see thrust not merely as a force that propels but as a mechanism that interacts with the very fabric of spacetime, producing effects akin to gravity itself. Just think about it as einstein proposed, that acceleration in free space produces the same force as gravity. The gravitational constant is 1/r which is the same way we describe the electrostatic potential. The magnitude of the gravitational and electrostatic force between two point masses or charges are inverse square law relationships. The field lines around a point mass and negative point charge are identical. The field lines in a uniform gravitational and electric field are identical. ### The Nature of Gravity and Spacetime Gravity can be understood as the bending of spacetime around mass. This curvature is not just passive; it actively involves electromagnetic wavelengths-light-radiating from that mass at infinitesimal scales. By manipulating electric flux densities surrounding a mass, such as Earth, we can effectively "unbend" this light. This alteration reveals that acceleration in free space can replicate gravitational effects. ### The Dance of Electric Flux Densities Exploring this concept further reveals how electric density fields shape our understanding of mass and gravity. The forces inherent in our existence on a spinning planet are influenced by spacetime curvature and electric flux densities. This understanding has profound implications for how we navigate our place within the solar system and galaxy. ### Fractal Organization and Cosmic Harmony In time, we will appreciate the fractal organization of these balances-how they resonate from cosmic scales down to our microcosm. Patterns observed in heart rate variability reflect these same fractal octaves, mirroring harmony found in celestial dances. Recognizing these connections fosters a deeper understanding of our role within this grand tapestry. ### A Vision for Altruistic Progress As we transition from swords to plowshares, we embrace a vision transcending mere technological advancement. This journey nurtures our relationship with the cosmos, fostering stewardship and interconnectedness. In this awakening, we discover not only answers but pathways to harmonize our existence with the forces shaping our reality. ### Invitation for Discussion I genuinely welcome your thoughts on these concepts and how they might influence future technologies. My aim is to foster an open dialogue about what I believe could be one of humanity's most significant advancements since fire itself. I’m eager to hear your insights and explore where our discussions might lead us together! tachyonaerospace.earth/ www.linkedin.com/company/torus-tech-llc
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I appreciate the honesty of showing your new design is not necessarily better as a trhuster, even if it has some of the other advantages you mentioned. I think you are focusing on the wrong part of this problem though. Changing the shape of the thurster might help make the use of power more efficient but the limiting factors to the flow rate, for constant mass, are going to be the voltage difference across the path along which each ion is accelerating and the charge of the ions themselves. You can't do much about the ions if you are using atmospheric air, so you're only left with addressing the electric acceleration problem. You could also use compression and heat, but it would no longer be a purely ionic engine.
@@PlasmaChannel You have made leaps and bounds in technology that I can only dream of attempting with my cheap $20 soldering iron and hot glue gun lol. I love i how your channel contributes positively to the internationally followable technology Journey. I can't wait to see what you have planned for the big 1 million subscriber milestone. I use ceramic disc magnets from microwaves to get more thrust on a needle and pipe ionic thruster but yours is way better I was amazed! keep it up, and thankyou for all your contributions to the international and possibly oneday integalactic knowledge base :) keep up the awesome videos. Also I love the editing and way you talk so calmy about something so cool :)
As a product designer, my advice is to research what was already done in the "moving air business". Aka fans, vacuum cleaners, blowers, coolers... There are a vast amount of research in aerodynamics applied to those products. Just look what Dyson does by shaping the air flow and utilizing centrifugal forces. They are great source of information. It's great to see your improvement! Congratulations!
So in all honesty if you have a taper after all stages are done with a reduction of 15-30% and some splines/fins to reduce turbulence towards the exit and get some better linear flow you can get a massive boost to your velocity. Love the videos best of luck.
Few design changes I would make 1.) less steep angle so less loss of energy when the air streams collide 2.) the sequential thrusters have diminishing returns, but are more efficient. Using multiple sets of 2 sequential thrusters converging into one stream would give a more efficient and powerful flow I believe. 3.) use a circular thruster and angle the outputs of each set of thrusters in a way to produce a vortex inside the body of the thruster. Just some ideas.
@@virutech32 yeah honestly no idea if it could help by pulling in more air with Bernoullis principle or if it would waste energy. it might be good for atomizing fuel if you were to throw the electric only part out the window though haha.
@@gavinhicks7621 It would pull more air by not spinning since that would push air out of the inlets. chemical-ion hybrid would be interesting. probably as an after-burner since flames could compromise the resistance of the air-gaps.
I noticed on your ionic wing video that it seemed like the switch from a flat razor blade to a serrated blade led to a significant boost in velocity. When you turned out the lights you could see how the power was focusing at the points of each serration. Have you tried increasing or decreasing the number of serrations to see what effect that has on output independent of other changes to the design? It would be a simple experiment to conduct, simply swapping out the blades in your current design for ones with flat edges and then blades with say 10, 20, and 30 serrations to see what effect that has? My guess is that there’s a max number at which you will see gains before they start to drop off. I’m also guessing that the max number of beneficial serrations could be related to power input (more power = more serrations before gain’s diminish). 2.) have you tried rotating the drive as opposed to only running it when it’s sitting flat? I would be very curious to see if rotating the drive while it’s running would create a vortex effect, reducing turbulent flow and boosting efficiency and output…
He's probably doing that behind the scenes but I can't imagine him really getting on stage just yet to show those numbers, maybe when he gets further ahead he'll start seriously giving us TWR numbers
C'mon, the flames weren't enough to convince you that this tech could rival propellers? Only engineers are concerned with numbers and established methods of testing. This isn't for you. It's pretend. For views. For people who don't know better
I missed the notification for this one. I always stop what I'm doing for this project. I like your content in general, but this project is FASCINATING.
You could take inspiration from axial compressors, and have your cross-section slowly reduce for each stage to improve and achieve a set pressure ratio by the end. One reason why in your case more stages doesn't seem to help is that all stages are identical. However, downflow stages will need more power and a different geometry since they are fighting a higher pressure. Then, your high pressure flow could go through a converging nozzle to accelerate even further (or just add more and more smaller ionic stages along the way, it might work as well).
Some Physics here is helpful. You want to optimize for the most thrust for the least power. You get thrust by accelerating air backwards. The momentum of the air moving backwards is m*v; the kinetic energy of the air moving backwards is 1/2mv^2. You want the most momentum for the least kinetic energy. Maximizing mv / (1/2 mv^2) you get 2/v. In other words, your efficiency drops the faster you move the air. However, there's also a few other considerations here! For one, you seldom will use a thruster like this while truly stationary. And if you're moving forward at 10km/h and your thruster moves air back at 5km/h... you aren't actually making any thrust. When you work out the optimum, it works out to "you want to move air back at 2x the velocity you are moving forward". This is why props work well at low speeds, then turboprops, then high-bypass turbofans, then low-bypass turbofans, then classic jets, then ramjets, then scramjets, then eventually rockets as you increase speed. It's "all" about the exhaust velocity. (Well, not entirely. But largely.) However, this then gets into the second consideration: if you want to move air back slowly, you need to move a _lot_ of air slowly. And you can only fit so much through a given, say, 10x4cm hole. Especially if the air is moving slowly. I suspect if you wanted to maximize thrust at low speeds you could do better by optimizing to improve the amount of entrainment air. Look at e.g. bladeless fans for inspiration.
If you look at modern thrust jet air flows, you'll see that they use very wide entries on the rear and narrow the channel to get the air compression which then it's next entry is put through and until they can make it the length of the wing that engines sits under. You need to think about it with compression in mind.
Your design at 3:15 has me thinking of sequential stages of compression in jet turbine engines. Each stage "packs" more air into the next. I wonder if there is a way to incorporate a larger first section, filled by sequentially smaller diameter but longer stages of ionic thrust. Instead of trying to make more velocity with thrust, try to ingest a larger volume of air into the system while increasing velocity in stages. A simple circuit would allow you to put variable resistors to each stage and dial in the proper voltage for each. Just $.02 from a newb Edit to add: just because you have all these technologies available, don't overlook the old geniuses and their slide rules. Look at the rc plane and kite building hobbies for light, strong designs and materials. A shrinkwrap wingover a skeleton frame is way lighter and plenty strong. To couple with my suggestion about sequential stages of thrust acceleration, look into the horns from old Hitachi motorcycle carburators. Their design reduces the turbulence of incoming airflow, something I think your thrust assembly could make dramatic use of.
Awesome channel and fantastic presentation! By the way, if you’re into cool tech, check out the self contained ion powered aircraft with onboard power. I’ve seen it in action in person, flying with its own electrical power system onboard, many times since 2006. It’s seriously impressive!! 😉
I share my knowledge: NIM engine. (Negative-Impulsive-Magnetic) Engine. (Because you build things, so why not help a bit) Nice idea with the waves but you didnt use it yet in your thruster. You recognized some air is sucked into the thruster, although it thrust air out? What is missing is the consideration of how the air consist and what actually move the air... electrons. Electron speed is determined by the voltage. If multiple thrusters are in row, it accelerats the air with the voltage-plasma but not beyond the voltage. Also the distance of the accelerating parts could be 1 factor at your build, also try to get lower ampere with same thrust results. In SHORT: Air volume calculation, air consistance calculation, thrust calculation with air, thrust efficiency by testing the best volt to ampere ratio, Thrust Frequency. Air(A): volume x consistance, Thrustfactor(Tf): volt x ampere, ThrustOutput(TO): Tf x A x TF (Thrust-Frequency) Think of the electrons AS if its waterdrops. Always make the plasma visible once to see where its flowing (helps alot). Also a magnetic field guides the electrons, because these are negative charged.
yeah, good stuff. Regarding the electrodes potential and air flow, I think it would be worthwhile looking into sequential electrodes at progressively higher potentials, and possibly a pulsed arrangement...
All sounds nice an all but electrons are lost to IONs that provide the thrust so straight off the bat you haven't a clue, lets see " thrust calculation with air, thrust efficiency by testing the best volt to ampere ratio, Thrust Frequency." This is bollocks its nonsense Volts * amps is power in watts and what the hell has that to do with thrust frequency. You got some tart your trying to impress ?
@@andymouse awww, they was on the right track at first, that air has to move and it takes energy to do so... got carried away with silly things rather than thinking about where the actual action/reaction force is, to MOVE air requires an action with equal and opposite reaction... where is the reaction? the only thing you have to "push" against is the charged molecules. the inertia of the air molecule, its mass, its refusal to change path, opposing the electrostatic forces. what proportion of air flow is due to charged molecules being repelled/attracted to electrodes, as opposed to neutral molecules being impacted, absorbing kinetic energy, and slowing the charged particles down? in a way they was right with the voltsxamps. how many watts goes into just making corona, leakage currents, how much is put into actual force over time on the frame, the electrodes? how much thrust does it make, how efficiently? air flow is not the same as thrust... entraining air doesnt create thrust. air that is dragged along by air you pushed on is nothing but drag. ie, dyson fans dont make thrust by accelerating air through the ring, the only thrust is at the nozzles, the air they sucked in and compressed and release at high speed. but once that air is moving it can perform work if redirected ;) you have to push on air. or get it to push on something... other than more air!
@@paradiselost9946 Yes I agree with you, and your making more sense but I must correct you It was me that pointed out that W =P x I not them and an increase in watts is going to increase thing to the point where they can catch fire but why did the say 'Thrust frequency ? gobbledy gook ! not a clue
I have an idea !!! Why don’t you make a hybrid ionic thruster ! One with metallic rotating blades and the blades are positively charged and also being driven by a motor and there are bunch of grounded wires at the end Airflow would be fan+ ionic thruster
I’m not sure but…The air could try to go sideways to follow the blades, slowing them down and blocking input… interesting though… Or it could make an air vortex since you put the grid. (Rotating grid ???)
@@romanbengaldrole4061 🤔 interesting idea , but grids at higher airspeeds kinda became bottlenecks , but ionic thrusters don’t have a very powerful thrust , it would be very interesting to see it in an experiment
@@VandalIO There is a solution : Place a central charged rod, with a higher charge at the end(outputs of generator), and use the Lorentz force to create rotation.
Then you need additional airflow from the side, unless you make some of it converge from the side, which is complex, but should be extremely efficient of optimized (I’m not a specialist though)
when you stack them in series, the electric fields could be interfering with one another. just as the air can be pushed forward, if you put another thruster in front it could add to an opposing force.
My “physics nerd common sense” is telling me that a circular shape might help with a more uniform flow, as the three streams coming from the triangles are probably converging in a pretty awkward way. Also some way of directing airflow from each peripheral thruster(like a duct or something) into a smaller output area in the center would likely help reduce turbulence and increase the velocity of the airflow (assuming you are building this for velocity and not displacement ). I am a high school senior so take this with a grain of salt lmao
in this case, the velocity of the airflow means nothing... air flow is not thrust. the thrust is only due to the mass that is worked upon, accelerated. and the only mass that is worked upon is the charged air molecules. their mass being repelled and attracted to the electrodes, being moved. the issue is that a lot of the air flow is produced not by being charged and repelled, but by getting in the way of the charged molecules that ARE being worked upon... you perform no work on moving that air. that work is due to the air you did perform work upon being SLOWED DOWN. the only way to get that air to perform work is to make it change direction, it performs work against something... which is what you see when you "blow stuff around"... air slow down, stuff get accelerated away. on a turntable, against a dyno, a load... i reckon it has virtually no thrust. all blow, no show :) but if it had a blade mounted behind it, angled appropriately, and spun "backwards" due to redirecting the total flow... and yeah, cones, ducts, circles, curved surfaces, always better... electrically and aerodynamically...
Been a pleasure following the iterations of these thrusters! Others might have suggested this, but I would suggest a dedicated testing rig that puts the anemometer at either a fixed distance from the thruster, or has variable distance gauges so that you can reliably capture data at the point of highest constructive interference (or multiple points along the air stream). Excited to see Mark 4!
In the first 10 seconds, you got me to dislike the video already. Betterhelp is not a doling or helpful in any way. I am disappointed that a great TH-camr like you would *ever* accept a sponsorship from them! Do some research before accepting a sponsorship next time!
I hear you and appreciate your input. I see your concerns. However, for someone to be triggered so quickly when the entire video has inherent value, inherent, educational, and experience value, to toss the entire video out the window because of a single sponsor that you do not approve of, is very Totalitarianistic.
I just have to say I have been a Bill Oddman fan for years now and the fact that the chaotic menace that he is has brought people together for OS is kinda amazing. He’s like the general no one can predict.
To everyone giving him crap about Better Help, it’s probably more productive to mention your dissatisfaction with the sponsor, but also give some alternatives for those who need that service. That will give the creator feedback, but also help those that need that type of service. Down voting and unsubscribing does nothing to help those with mental health issues.
I understand everyone needs to put food on the table but please don’t take sponsorships from better help if you can help it. They don’t have a great track record and a quick google search can show all the issues and red flags they have.
okay so with this setup and the wing setup try this, Each section up the voltage starting 40w , 80w, 120w. that way the thrust is compressing each Colum from each others max air speed. return should give max speed down wind. just a thought appreciate your videos and hard work.
I’m by far NO engineer like yourself or ever planning to become one, but it seems every jet engine uses a method of compression at the output, nozzle reduction if you will. IE, an adjustment of the orifice to a smaller opening thereby increasing the velocity of throughput whereas your designs seem to focus on being just straight through. Perhaps shrinking the sizes of each acceleration step may produce more velocity? I don’t know, I’m just guessing here. Love your concept and what you’re doing on this channel. Just found it and science is kind of a second love of mine, please keep up the great work. No matter how big or small, every step is ALWAYS a step forward. 👍🏽
1:11 the start of a man finally acknowledging the power of nature. We truly nothing with out is it. If you think you can make some better than nature that will be your first mistake because somewhere out there nature has been doing it better. BTW please don’t take this as a dis I love you man love watching your videos and hearing your voice stay handsome my brother🫡
I'd suggest putting the fog tray in front of the device and film the intake and internal interactions at high speed. that will give a better view on the interactions and how the air actually moves, as it seems like there's far less efficiency gain per-thruster with this design. Since pressurization reduces the subjective efficiency of each stage, Bill's suggestion to use exponential power scaling for each thruster might work. It also seems as though the third thruster really isn't adding much considering the extra weight it adds. Would more power (and more robust connectors if needed) fed to only two thrusters ultimately be more economical? what happens if you cover the front/top of the 1st thruster? Does that alter the airflow?
You were getting absolutely correct results with Mk 2. Injecting the same amount of energy each stage will yield lesser and lesser velocity due to mv squared over two, doubling the velocity requires quadrupled energy input. Would you mind trying out a christmas tree configuration in order to get a proper convergence? Smallest accelerator at the beginning, "nested" in the second stage, and so on, and so forth , with each stage widening. Another thing to try would be a shared electrode design, where AC drive would power 3 or more electrodes of identical dedign with rounded leading edge and jagged trailing edge, fully utilizing both half waves. Just my 2 cents. Awesome work 😊
3:15 You didn't take into account that E ~ v², because E = ½mv². Since all 3 thrusters in series impart about the same energy on the air (40W = 40 J/s), it would be expected for v²/P to be mostly constant. And that's what you see: 2.1² / 40 = 0.110, 3.2² / 80 = 0.128, 3.9²/120 = 0.127 So it seems that 2 or 3 stages are more efficient than 1 by itself. If you wanted each stage to contribute equally to the speed of the air (so 2.1, 4.2 and 6.3 m/s after each stage), Then the second stage needed to be 160W and the third stage 360W.
I have a few ideas for possible improvements? 1. If you used a design similar to this, could you use a high powered fan to accelerate the ionic thrust? 2. Could you use a jet engine's rotatey things to direct the flow better? Sorry if I've missed why these wouldn't work, but I love the channel! 😍
3:30 Just from a quick look these "diminishing returns" as you said seem very reasonable. Keep in mind that kinetic Energy goes with the square of velocity and the amount of energy gained in a stage is basically the time spent multiplied by the power of the stage. Therefore one would expect to see a polynomial decline of something between 1/x^2 and 1/x^3 from stage to stage. Also because of the increasing speed the continuity equation dictates that pressure must drop which is why pulling in additional air from the side works so well. Given that thrust is just change of impulse, you should attempt to increase the mass flow first and velocity second because impulse is m*v but energy and therefore power required is m*v^2/2. So for a given increase in thrust you would need more energy if you were to achieve it by increasing velocity compared to achieving it by increasing mass flow.
for the different stages. have you tried cascading the voltage? I believe it might help. so having: emitter 1 @ 120kV collector 1 @ 90kV, emitter 2 @ 60kV collector 2 @ 30kV etc. or something like that. I think that having all the collectors at equipotential can cause reverse ionic currents
Is there going to be another episode of this design??? I've been very entertained by it and inspire. Thank you so much for this valuable content. I'm currently struggling in life with money and cannot support you rn but these vids are valuable and I appreciate all the content creators who create things like this that are genuinely helpful and provide solid info.
I wish Grant Imahara were still around to see this. He built one of those aluminum foil lifters you always see but rarely work well, so be would be super impressed with this.
It might be a good idea to be able to precisely measure the static pressure developed as well as the flow rate. In essence your would be developing a thruster curve ( similar to a fan curve). With this tool you you might be able to find the optimal configuration for your thruster designs. You would need to develop a laminar flow element to measure differential pressure and have a fan to pull air through the flow bench at various static pressures. You could plot a curve by measuring static and differential pressure on a graph. Omega and Meriam might be good resources for flow bench design. I would think that thrust is more than just cubic feet/min.
*@Plasma Channel* 1:34 & 1:51 First I thought "Why 3 sides, why not 4?" quickly followed by "why 4 when you could do a pentagon, or octagon..." until the "ultimate" question/answer: *"Why not round?"* Could you makes several rings (instead of triangles) that all accelerate the air & aims it inwards? It seams very possible. Maybe you could even give the edge a kind of "fractal"-ish design, just to increase the surface area more? like a hollow star-shape or so? (but that's probably worse than round?) I guess the answer to *"Why not round?"* is: *"Because easier to build with straight pieces, no need to special-order round knife blades."?*
if you add spacing, but cover the space in between them, creating a tunnel may help, also try rotating the blocks from each other, making the wind rotate inside the tunnel
You definitely need to increase the power at each stage. Maybe even increase spacing at each stage. Right now you are just seeing how much air it can push, but in real world applications it will be pushing air to move itself. This means you can take advantage of airflow ie air scoops for force flow. Each stage would need to be progressively smaller but with larger scoops and more power applied to each stage with the entire thing covered
Hello, I work with plasma/corona and fluid modeling regularly. I love the inspiration from nature, but seems like the convergence idea isn't a great application for fluids, unless you converge them at extremely small angles. The larger the angle of attack, the more turbulence and flow "cancelation" you will get, which basically means you just want to run them parallel to each other ( 0°). Also, you need to think about how the air gets accelerated by ion flow between the electrodes. They are accelerated toward a surface, which means you are moving most the air by entrainment due to the ion flow. Optimizing the electrode geometry to reduce drag off the faces and increase entrainment may give you a big boost. Like others in the comments have said, you shouldn't Use velocity as a metric unless you want to produce fast moving air. If you want a thruster, you want thrust! Measure the thrust with a force gauge. Thanks for the good content and high production value.---- Oh also, you should be carful how much ozone you breath on a regular basis, working with so much air plasma. Ozone is amazingly harsh and may have chronic effects if you breath low levels over time.
the angularity is inducing turbulence and therefore drag in your air column. consider modifying the thrusters into each comprising 120 degrees of a circle, and directing the thruster output offset from parallel to the axis laterally by a small degree. by inducing a vortex in the air column, you reduce turbulence just as bleed air louvres do in an afterburning turbofan. also, you might consider modulating the diameter of the exit with exhaust vanes, or some facsimile thereof. thus, you can increase exit velo significantly
Incredible work! I wonder if we'll see Dyson make a bladeless Ionic Plasma fan in the coming years. I hope to see the day where a plane can fly with this technology.
Your works are astonishing. I feel a great comfort watching them proceed. Also it is very interesting how all evolves. These are remarkable. Nevertheless some of your Commentators propose improvements, for example exponential spacing. So i am also very curious how you do propose to deal with turbulent air drag or mentioned venturi effect or an intake and an exhaust stall or other aerodynamic effects etc. in this electrostatic compressor. I see there is a racing car chassi constructor challange. Hehe. There could have been a method of sequential charging of each condensator with a certain frequency to overcome turbulent drag created by pumping this gas through the compressors interior. Also it could take many years before any closing conclusions appear. Though, it all does look very future proof. All the best wishes.😀
You've really got to look at your anode and cathode as structural elements for the next iteration. They're big sections of metal, so can stand in for a lot of the plastic you have within the unit. You could even reduce down both to smaller versions of themselves, or cutting them length wise in half, and still use them as support structures. Then there are 3D printable materials that are used for aeroplane models that you can use to shave even more weight. Tom Stanton made an Osprey model using some that was super lightweight. So theres a good starting point. Good hunting
This is an awesome project. It would be cool to see a circular (ring-shaped) wing thruster. You'd get the same hollow center you're looking for while also using the support structure to provide lift
By colliding the streams of air in a column you are inducing massive turbulence and a high pressure field behind the engine. that might sound good, but it basically makes the engine need a stronger internal compression to overcome it. I suggest to either increase the size of engine intake the further to the front, or to make them exhaust parallel to each other. In other words, either brute force a large intake into a small output and compress it down with each stage, or make it all flow parallel and avoid compression and go for airspeed. To illustrate with water, laminar flow moves more water compared to chaotic flow at the same pressure and pipe diameter, but if you want to increase the pressure, its easier to just force it down the tube in chaotic flow by increasing the pressure.
I've mentioned this before, but you need exponential spacing. You are trying to accelerate a 2.8 column of air with another 2.8 stream input. Because you want external entrainment, you might consider an exponential horn housing. Each 2.8 input would force more air into a smaller space, increasing the speed.
Alternatively, each thruster could be exponentially increased in power, to use the same level of input more efficiently. So like cut the first one in half, raise the last one by double. Without external entrainment, you could change the distance between anode and cathode to accelerate the same stream successively but with increased speed each time. The first one would be closest, and the second one twice as separated, but since the air is already moving, the ions would travel much faster covering the doubled distance in the same time.
I don’t think that will behave as you mentioned. Not sure this system can compress air. But would be worth testing. Likely why he did not see much improvement when doing the spacing.
Would love to see a 15” version of this.
Why not put all thrusters in one sealed tube to get more of a jet effect?
@@JoeyBlogs007 because it won't pull air in from the side to compress it and further increase airflow
@@JoeyBlogs007 or maybe circular thrusters, just kinda hard to build.
Erm Akchually ☝🤓
I really think you need to switch to static thrust measurement as a method of comparing efficiency rather than output velocity alone. For example, you might be seeing the same 2.8 meters per second output on two designs with the same power but one could have way more thrust than the other due to the surface area of the output. You might also have a design with lower velocity that is far more efficient than one with higher. You kinda touched on this with liters of flow but a thrust stand will provide more accurate information.
Grams of static thrust per watt is the gold standard of measured efficiency. You should be making more than 1 gram per watt from what I know about ionic thrusters. 4 grams per watt is the highest I’ve ever heard of from research papers.
^THIS!!!
Great comment, do you think this could be done with just a kitchen scale?
100%
With maybe a little math and providing a point for rotation yes you can use any scale. (given it's accurate) Basically the same as a load cell.
Yeah, he absolutely needs a better way of measuring thrust and efficiency
It seems like all thrusters need to have equal thrust. Otherwise, one is doing most of the work.
I love that part of the design change is you've moved from 'how fast can we push air' to the more important question 'how much air can we push'.
Awesome work!
Here are some improvements i suggest:
- measure grams of thrust per watt instead of airspeed
- focus mainly on achieving max thrust at a certain size
- use a single tube design with no holes in the sides of the design to simplify aerodynamics and testing
Robust design like you did was really smart, hope you continue with the ionic thurster. Would love to see this on rc planes or even table fans in the future
"use a single tube design with no holes in the sides of the design to simplify aerodynamics and testing"
The concept he is applying is to pull air in from the sides & push it to the center.
@@guytech7310 Couldn't agree more, he is not concentrating on the thrust, which is the absolute problem with this type of propulsion, messing around with all the other superfluous aspects is kind of lazy, but I know why he's doing that, it's easier than tackling the hard issue and it satisfies the easily impressed viewers out there, so, meh, I wouldn't call any of this really interesting or intriguing. For example if you look at another unrelated channel, ah "Tech. Ingredients" I think it's called, a father and son team who tackle all manner of projects those guys REALLY dig into the science and do respectable work.
Could you imagine the power bill of such a fan compared to a typical 10-20W fan? Sucking down 100W of power just to have a small breeze with chance of electrical shock lol.
@CaedenV haha it’s exhilarating isn’t it? You forgot the best part - a small chance of fire too 😅
@PlasmaChannel iv been trying to explain the basics of my advanced aerospace to you for many many years and though my plasma thruster is very different you miss one major aspect in the technology. You have no pressure chamber around the thruster.... to explain it quick you have a pressure chamber but small scale for yours uses an elastic balloon. The thruster will need a skeleton around it for the deflated balloon to go around. One end of the balloon has a intake valve that can only suck air in from the thruster intake. On the other end you need a pressure valve that will release at a specific calculated pressure needed to launch it... have the thruster work and inflate the balloon building pressure that will fill it to desired pressure the the valve releases and as that happens thrust the thruster full power and it will utilize the pressure thrust combined with the thrusters thrust.. to cool it down so it does not melt the balloon use very cold helium gas dispersed into the plasma field but u think you should be good. Mine uses a metal pressure chamber at high pressures using hot plasma cooled down using very cold helium gas. The balloon method would be good to experiment with before using metal pressure chamber and a thruster that can produce dangerous pressures.
Okay hear me out. If you're not going to do it, I might.
Consider the following:
- A wing profile is revolved radially, such that you end up with a wing profile that's disk shaped.
- The disk is initially stationary with air surrounding the disk.
- Underneath the disk wing, there's 'zero' radial velocity, indicating high pressure.
- Above the wing, there's non-zero radial velocity of air, indicating low pressure.
- The radial velocity of air above the wing is induced by plasma.
- The electrodes are circular rings placed on top of the disk, where the inner ring has a smaller diameter than the outer ring, such that air flow radially from in to out.
- The disk is made using CNC and is supposed to be extremely lightweight, i.e. EPS foam (non-flammable) density of about 30 kg/m3. Preferable thin-walled, perhaps with ribs if there's low stiffness.
- Downward 'Wingtips' around the disk's edge could be used to properly separate the high and low pressures.
- You could use a wing profile that has a very high Cl, i.e. high lift at low speed, since Cl does not rely on airspeed.
- You could subdivide the disk into 4 parts, where each quarter's potential difference can be manipulated, which could help in allowing you to steer.
The idea is to create a solid velocity difference between top and bottom surfaces, to create a strong lift force, where the bottom velocity is essentially zero (stand still). Relying on Bernoulli's principle we can determine the lift force. For a simple rectangular plate with area 'A' being in air with density rho, the lift force Fl = 1/2 * rho * A * (Vtop^2 - Vbot^2).
I've done quick calculations. Considering your and others previous work, I think it's viable starting at ~45 kV. if we can achieve similar airflow speeds, I think we could create the first actual hovering UFO drone that doesn't rely on moving parts.
Some other notes:
- There should be sufficient airflow, such that a 'boundary' layer is formed between the high and low pressure zones. Such that air doesn't leak towards the low pressure zone
- Use foam that is preferably fire-retardant, since the plasma may ignite the foam. EPS should be suitable, XPS possibly not.
- Preferably use foam or another lightweight material for the electrodes. Paint it with graphite spray and use electroplating to make some seriously lightweight electrodes.
- One conclusion I had from watching your videos, is that the air speed doesn't necessarily increase with multiple stages. But it does help in creating a more uniform flow over a larger volume or area. Using multiple electrode rings may create a very uniform flow field above the disk.
Been thinking about this for quite some time, and I am thinking about doing it as a hobby project, but I think this would fit your Channel a lot better and if it works out, it's a world's first! (not considering Aliens did it before we did, lol.)
DAMN BRO COOKED
As an engineering student that’s wants to go into aerospace. This comment is really interesting.
I am not reading all that,but you sound smart and it sounds like a good idea
This is a good situation to explore. You may want to check out my ionic thrust wing I recently invent/built. It’s about 5 videos back. I designed it that way so as to Introduce a permanent velocity difference between top and bottom, creating lift even when the wing is at zero velocity horizontally.
Incorporating that into a UFO shape has potential- though - that air has to come from somewhere. If all the radial ionic segments blast air outward on the top, it means the air must come from a center column in the middle of the top. This does introduce significant drag interaction between air above and top of ufo surface.
@PlasmaChannel, I appreciate your response. I've watched the video, and it's definitely a step in the right direction. If it could be made more lightweight, perhaps it could already achieve flight.
I'm uncertain about the 'refill source' of the air. It could be drawn in from the center top of the disk, or perhaps it's sucked in over the entire top surface. I've been pondering about this. While it seems logical that the majority is drawn in from the center due to the direction of flow, if we consider air molecules being 'pushed' away locally by the plasma, it makes me wonder why the void wouldn't replenish locally either (thus 'refilling' air across the entire surface). But that could indeed be a replenishment due to the flow itself.
Perhaps you could check the inflow velocity of your plasma fan. Is it close to zero, or is there obvious suction? Edit: watching your wing video again, there's obvious suction. So it would make sense it comes from the top center.
Regarding drag, the initial goal is to create a hovering disk, achieving a force balance. Considering the suction from the middle, I'm unsure of the drag's significance. My intuition says it's relatively little compared to the lift generated. However, this largely depends on how air is drawn in, the surface area affected by drag, and the interaction of the moving air molecules with the disk (vector of the molecules). That's why I'm quite eager to see if it would even work experimentally. And if it fails, it'd be a succesful failure, since in the end it's a learning experience.
The primary objective should be achieving a force balance for sustained hovering. The lift force could significantly surpass the weight, especially if lightweight materials like foam are used. If there's sufficient margin, it may also handle the drag, who's order of magnitude is yet unknown.
Exploring its dynamic behavior, it's obvious that rapid acceleration/speeds won't be achievable due to the significant frontal area of the disk.
Please keep it mind; I'm eager to see where the wing design leads! :)
Consider the Hal effect thruster:
1) Add a strong electromagnet at outlet of the thruster to generate an electron vortex.
2) Place mini electron guns around the outer rim of the thruster outlet to generate electrons for a virtual cathode
3) Place a large anode (looking like a v-spike engine) within the housing of your thruster
4) At the front end of your thruster, place the necessary support structures for the anode + wiring, be sure to leave most of the front end opened for intake
5) Use your original thruster to provide slightly ionized air to the thrust chamber
Just a reality check: at 4m/s and a cross-sectional area of about 100cm2 you're putting about 0.3W of power into the air; for a 70W input. Because energy rises as velocity squared the second stage of your first prototype is actually _more_ efficient than the first. To maximize thrust efficiency you actually want to move a large volume of air slowly rather than a small volume fast, something ionic thrusters might be suited to. However, due to the nature of ionic acceleration much of the energy input is going into rotational/vibrational states of the molecules rather than velocity, so it's unlikely ionic thrusters will ever be efficient enough to compete with, say, a propeller. But still fun stuff, thanks for posting.
His structures are basic structures. With more research, better material, and material structures, it will improve. For example, toroidal fins are structure improvements, and it will happen for ionic thrusters, too
@@dennisalbert6115 Iterative refinements like that historically get you improvements of a factor of a few, eventually. If you're starting with a system that is about 0.5% efficient then you're not a factor of a few short of where you need to be in order to be competitive, you're a couple of orders of magnitude behind. At that point you either need a radical change to the entire approach, or just accept that atmospheric ionic thrusters are a very, very cool scientific curiosity but not really a viable form of propulsion.
I haven't checked your arithmetic, but he might well be better off just running resistance wires and running a thermal cycle.
@@BooBaddyBig If turning electrical energy into thrust by moving air is the objective then nothing else comes even close to a brushless DC motor turning a well matched propeller, on more or less any performance metric you choose (except perhaps for low noise). Buying some off the shelf FPV drone motors and marvelling at how good they are wouldn't make for compelling content, though.
Plasma Channel is sticking with atmospheric ionic thrusters because building very cool high voltage physics toys and making well produced videos about them is what he does, and he's very good at it. I just wish he would be more honest that that is what he's doing (as he is in a lot of his other videos), rather than wrapping it up in the "I'm inventing the future of aerospace" schtick.
Great input! I know the pursuit is nearly pointless - ionic thrust will never compete with propellers on efficiency. Then again, I’m not going for efficiency. If I can design a thruster that uses 5 times the power of a propeller system (currently it needs more power than that haha), I’d still consider it a win. Because as battery densities continue to increase, as small scale nuclear becomes a reality, energy requirements for electrical apparatus aren’t going to matter much.
So I’m focusing more on the improvement of thrusters approach, less on the trying to actually beat a propeller approach,
Great input
Dude, a second Channel of just you recording the process of you designing and building the prototypes in long form, like an hour or even longer, would be mad and you’d be able to get a video out sooner, less editing needed because it’s a second channel video, no music is really needed, just pure analysis and prototyping. I’d love to see how you do your process and how your brain works.
I often say you can see Adam savages brain work on the outside as he builds things. And I love the rawness of the content.
I fully agree, but it would increase the overall work-load.
That’s a good idea!
@@PlasmaChannelyour 3D modeling skills are off the charts, that's for sure! Your brain never shuts down when you're designing this stuff! Awesome designs... We commoners could never understand the hours you put into this. Thanks for being who you are. 👍
@@PlasmaChannel Nature doesn't do angles. Since most if not all of your ideas and designs are coming from nature (Think about that for a moment), I would suggest you take the shape design of the MKII and the concept of the MKIII and combine the 2. In other words make the MKIII round with 4 sections per circular ring at the same 22 degree inclination.
Better yet, if he records the process for said second channel, that can lighten the recording load for the main channel, albeit increasing the recording and editing load as a whole.
Man seeing an american engineering channel use the metric system is a breath of fresh air. Awesome project man, this has huge potential
Every math and science class I’ve ever had in my life uses metric. Hell every American unit system is metric and then converted to imperial
take your metric mumbo jumbo and leave freedom alone
As a British child of the 80s, my schooling and life even now (I work for American firms a lot and also with electronics), which is a blend or should i say, confusing mixture of metric and imperial.
Britain STILL measures weights in metric measurements in metres, CM, MM, inches, feet, and miles. Road speed, distances, and consumption are ALL miles and gallons (UK).
PCBs are fun as "mil" in Europe/metric is an abbreviation of Millimetre. "Thou" is 1/1000 of an inch. In American Imperial, "mil" is 1/1000 of an inch. So when I lived in San Jose I had to choose my words very carefully.
We will never lose the mixture of both until ALL nations switch and industry follows....which I doubt will ever happen.
It's more about stubborn pride, and misguided Patriotism than anything that the United States clings to bastardized Imperial units. The cost of converting would be a mere $400 Million dollars or so, but then we could not say we are Special to the World anymore. lol
NASA has used only metric since the 80s
better help is a horible company taking advantage of people at their worst. Iv been unsubing and refusing to watch videos aponsored by them. Hopefully you will drop them as a sponsor because your content is quite good.
This is just A Little Thanks For ALL of The Awesome Science you have done in The Past ... You have some Experiments which I would LOVE To Try, but for now guess I will just have to watch you do from here
I have been designing air ducts recently, and one of the very important things is to not restrict the air flow rapidly. For the best results it's best to stay under 10 degrees of restriction. Keep up the good work!
Funny enough for engine cylinder heads it's about 15 degrees as the limit.
Sorry Jay in 2018 MIT did NOT build the "world's first ionic thrust airplane," or "aircraft" as they stated in their paper. Although it was the first traditionally shaped such vehicle, there is an earlier more efficient ion propelled aircraft that does carry its power supply onboard.
There are approximately 45 videos of the earlier series of ion propelled aircrafts on my TH-cam channel that create much more thrust per watt and were patented for lifting their onboard power supplies entirely with ion propulsion! All of these crafts are capable of self-contained VTOL as well as horizontal flight. They are extraordinarily well verified and documented to fly carrying their own onboard ion propulsion systems. They were designed in a particular way because it was challenging to get them to lift their own power supplies with ion propulsion.
I think creating ion thrusters that are capable of lifting themselves vertically, as well as horizontally, have much more potential because this really is a form of ion rocket and will be capable of very high ISPs when operated in a vacuum, (in that case with added propellant). The ion thrusters I built have wing shaped collectors and so can produce aerodynamic lift as well when used in atmosphere without added propellant. There are already solar cells available that will enable these Ion Propelled Vehicles to fly all day long in the near future.
I would love to learn more about the solar cell powered Ion propulsion, any recommendations on where to find these designs?
@@extraziadeh NASA has been making heavy solar ion propelled spacecraft for years, such as the Dawn spacecraft etc. To power a terrestrial or air breathing ion thruster with a greater than 1 to 1 thrust ratio and with solar power, you can use my designs and utilize "Perovskite" solar cell films. There are lightweight aircrafts that were flown with these types of cells, but the cells were custom made, challenging to get ahold of, have a short lifetime, and are expensive. Perovskite solar film can be much more powerful by weight than the lithium polymer batteries I have been using. The commercial versions that I know of are pre-encapsulated aren't light enough.
I think you should run a design competition and have viewers submit thruster designs and you build and test them.
Love this
great way to farm patents to buy up and sit on.
@@kingmasterlord not really. The moment you share, you can no longer patent the idea.
Rc test flight
@@TimothyKNetherlands like they cant make some legally distinct tweak then file a patent that's broad af.
Please drop Better Help as a sponsor man, they sell people's medical info to advertisers :(
not just that but they also threatten everyone who dodge their sponsorship, they are a real evil shady company.
And they don't check if they're therapists are liscened, so please don't take them as a sponsor if you care about your audience.
@@randomsomeguy156look yourself in a mirror and remember.
Even moms can love the ugliest child.
@@randomsomeguy156no, then we just wont get more Bsi thruster videos, which are some of his most fascinating.
@@randomsomeguy156 That's kinda shitty behavior against the guy in my opinion, it's not like he's at fault for a shitty company, probably don't even know about this, but do whatever you want, your choice anyway
STOP! Do not seek an actor's position. You control your own channel and you are happy now! Best format ever, you know what you are doing. Keep growing your channel and business. You are doing very well! You need to go the CERN now!
"my work has paralleled MIT's attempt" is not something many people can say. Congratulations man, good work!
I appreciate that, thanks!
@@PlasmaChannelDo you know how awful BetterHelp actually is? You should really read up on their shortcomings as a therapy service. It’s irresponsible to advertise their service.
@@PlasmaChannel 1 trusted 3m/s 3 truster no improvement?
@@PlasmaChannel It might be a good idea to read some of the papers that are open access on the subject, if you haven't already. There are a huge amount of variables, not just lateral spacing of the individual thrusters but also vertical spacing, as well as voltage comparisons, spacing between the anode and cathode, pin vs wire ionization etc. It might be a little too in depth for what you're going for, but if you are working on pushing the technology looking at what other people are working on in the field would be beneficial, it's not just MIT either there are Chinese papers as well.
My work has paralleled MIT's attempt. There, I just said it. It wasn't difficult to say.
1) They need to still be circular. They can be segmented...1/3 or 1/4 circle for each thruster, but a round interior will create smoother airflow and offer larger internal area for objects to fit through without compromising volume.
2) You'll need to find a way to more smoothly merge the flows so that they compound one another. As it is, currently, they're slamming into each other and losing energy. They're not blending together to improve flow, and they're losing velocity in the process. My recommendation would be to find a way to offset the thrusters at an angle, laterally. Instead of merely tilting them so their exhaust is pointed inward, also tilt them so that flow is off-centered, to create a vortex. Then they shouldn't be slamming into one another, but more like merging on a highway.
3:15 the second and 3rd stage only increased the velcity by approx 50% and 25 % respectively is about the fact that E=1/2 m*v² . So doubleing in speed is 4 times the Energy. So each station approx lifts the same amount of power(aka 50W)
Drop the betterhelp.
What's the deal with it?
WHY? let the man earn some money doing what he loves?
@vivekdubey9061 they have routinely subpar service turnout for the prices they charge, go for him for the sponsorship tho
lore?
@@pimvanduijne it's not about the sponsorship, it's about the fact that that sponsorship is betterhelp. betterhelp makes no guarantee that your therapist will be licensed or educated, and it's not actually as cost effective as getting a licensed one for less time.
Yeah! Can't wait for OpenSauce! See you there!
1 like is crazy
yeah
Amazing! You're part way to a turbine engine with no moving parts. It's possible there is turbulence happening between each stage as you're compressing air and then running the next stage at the same size. It might make sense to reduce and move the 2nd stage to the size of the covergance point of the first stage. Not sure of the 3 stage, maybe the same or go larger than the first stage, like and afterburner, with a case the diameter of the largest stage, assuming it ultimately needs to be fit as such in a plane.
Also, redesigning it circular as opposed to triangular will reduce internal turbulance, adding a slight twist to the blades to create a vortex should also stabilize airflow.
Just spit balling, you're doing great stuff.❤
Can’t wait to see you at Open Sauce again this year! Had a great time chatting with you at the last one.
Your explanations and commentary are excellent. Awesome video and project.
Edit: I do agree with some of the other commentators that some of the revelations about BetterHelp's data policies deserve scrutiny and push back. Hopefully you can find more responsible sponsorship partners moving forward.
10:15 I could be wrong, but it seems to me that this design would create a great deal of internal turbulence and restrict the flow.
Suggestions:
First - Reduce electrode segment lengths and add more of them to change from a triangular shape to an octagonal shape (closer to a circle).
Second - Angle them both inward toward the central axis (like you are) and to create circulation around the central axis (closer to your ionic tornado)
I believe this should reduce the clashing of air columns (10:19) that create turbulence and improve the airflow to increase the output pressure.
There's really no channel I consistently follow every single video EXCEPT for this channel. I love this project and I'm here for this the whole thing. Can't wait for the next update
Whoa, that means a lot to me! Thank you so much, I appreciate you.
@@PlasmaChannel I agree with the sentiment that @rafaelgutierrez3630 expressed but will add that there is one other channel that I treat the same way and maybe others here haven't yet discovered... TechIngredients, like your channel is very much a "new video posted. I click!" channel. Both of your channels are amazing and I would LOVE to see a collaboration! Keep up the great work. 👍🏻
Maybe you could try a circular design instead of a triangular design. I feel like it might focus the air a little better.
I was going there as well, creating a high speed vortex?
It could be interesting to place a central charged rod so the airflow gets “added” and focused (even directed maybe ?)
High speed vortex why not, but I tried to design this for a water propeller, and you would need Lorentz force = weird magnets placement… Basically you would need a magnetic field that goes to the center (hence the rod), and a way to attract it to a focused point in the back + a “venturi” style system could be interesting as the air would be pulled in the vortex… I would try this if i had high voltages and strong magnets…
Agree and a better power to weight ratio as the cylinder has a natural strength advantage, so you can make it thinner
I was thinking the same ! Like anode and cathode be rings from bigger to smaller with air guides within to guide airflow
As someone in psych, you really gotta dump BetterHelp as a sponsor.
For everyone else on PC, don't forget about sponsorblock.
Why ? Are they dodgy ?
@@VandalIO Not only that; they sell your data, overcharge you and underpay their „psychiatrists“, who often aren’t even trained.
@@VandalIO How would you feel about not just having your data sold in a capacity I still don't understand doesn't violate HIPPA standards, the "help" you receive _might_ come from someone the credentials they advertised but probably not since licensure is all state by state (good luck if you're outside the US), and have fun finding someone able to maintain even the basics since the underpaid "therapists" they employ are expected to have turn around times faster than some insurance companies mandate. Sure, they may not be as bad as asylums from the 1940s, but I wouldn't say that's a compliment.
@@VandalIO Hilarious YT censored this. Anyway-
How would you feel about not just having your data sold in a capacity I still don't understand doesn't violate HIPPA standards, the "help" you receive _might_ come from someone the credentials they advertised but probably not since licensure is all state by state (good luck if you're outside the US), and have fun finding someone able to maintain even the basics since the underpaid "therapists" they employ are expected to have turn around times faster than some insurance companies mandate. Sure, they may not be as bad as asylums from the 1940s, but I wouldn't say that's a compliment.
I've heard people who work these kinds of services are incentivized to rope you in to staying on for long periods to rack up charges and get you to come back for more. They get penalized if they fail to rack up the charges. The same applies to those working psychic hotlines.
Hey fellas, gravitymasterinfinity here from the New Energy Concepts group, Tachyon Aerospace, TorusTech, etc.
Anyway, Jay, I enjoy the passion you have for plasma physics and the effort you put into your builds, as well as your enthusiastic presentations. Since you have put so much effort into this direction of experimental inquiry-which is no small feat of epistemological exercise, being both mentally straining and time-consuming-it’s refreshing to see that even though your results were not much different than your last configuration of the thruster, you gracefully accepted the possibility that the natural world and its rhythms may contain a better science than your textbooks suggest so dogmatically. A very good example to those following the same path. Good show, old man!
Now I'm going to turn over the apple cart and disrupt the money changers in the temple of established science that may or may not reside within those things with which you identify or give credence to for validation of all you have accomplished so far. But then again, I do think you know more than what you let on; perhaps not, but I'm sure I'll be crucified in the thread nonetheless for my blasphemies against the egregore of socially reinforced agreement of a set reality as concrete and unchanging as the status quo.
I begin:
The term "thruster" is misleading; there is no thrust occurring as one would typically understand it. Instead, we must consider a transformative perspective on ion propulsion.
I’m excited to share that I have completed the first stages of a workable transdimensional engineering framework. This framework includes Python simulations and a suite of programs designed to test technologies built around these principles.
As we turn away from this outdated notion of ion thrust as a mere wind-conquering machine, we embark on a journey toward understanding its deeper implications. This shift invites us to see thrust not merely as a force that propels but as a mechanism that interacts with the very fabric of spacetime, producing effects akin to gravity itself. Just think about it as einstein proposed, that acceleration in free space produces the same force as gravity. The gravitational constant is 1/r which is the same way we describe the electrostatic potential. The magnitude of the gravitational and electrostatic force between two point masses or charges are inverse square law relationships. The field lines around a point mass and negative point charge are identical. The field lines in a uniform gravitational and electric field are identical.
### The Nature of Gravity and Spacetime
Gravity can be understood as the bending of spacetime around mass. This curvature is not just passive; it actively involves electromagnetic wavelengths-light-radiating from that mass at infinitesimal scales. By manipulating electric flux densities surrounding a mass, such as Earth, we can effectively "unbend" this light. This alteration reveals that acceleration in free space can replicate gravitational effects.
### The Dance of Electric Flux Densities
Exploring this concept further reveals how electric density fields shape our understanding of mass and gravity. The forces inherent in our existence on a spinning planet are influenced by spacetime curvature and electric flux densities. This understanding has profound implications for how we navigate our place within the solar system and galaxy.
### Fractal Organization and Cosmic Harmony
In time, we will appreciate the fractal organization of these balances-how they resonate from cosmic scales down to our microcosm. Patterns observed in heart rate variability reflect these same fractal octaves, mirroring harmony found in celestial dances. Recognizing these connections fosters a deeper understanding of our role within this grand tapestry.
### A Vision for Altruistic Progress
As we transition from swords to plowshares, we embrace a vision transcending mere technological advancement. This journey nurtures our relationship with the cosmos, fostering stewardship and interconnectedness. In this awakening, we discover not only answers but pathways to harmonize our existence with the forces shaping our reality.
### Invitation for Discussion
I genuinely welcome your thoughts on these concepts and how they might influence future technologies. My aim is to foster an open dialogue about what I believe could be one of humanity's most significant advancements since fire itself. I’m eager to hear your insights and explore where our discussions might lead us together!
tachyonaerospace.earth/
www.linkedin.com/company/torus-tech-llc
Truly becoming closer to real life Halo every day
🛸🉑CERN- Large Hadron ColliderATLAS Experiment at FLASH مغربيUNHCR AfghanistanChina Xinhua EconomyUKF DubstepScience & EngineeringBilal Hussain Bill Nye The Science GuyFBI Community OutreachUSA TODAYUnited States Space ForceUnited NationsNASA Solar System ExplorationMolvi Roohulamin HaqqaniSupreme Court JudgmentsSupreme Court of New South WalesUS Supreme CourtThe White House Donald J. Trump BMW Middle EastLamborghiniKendrick Lamar🌌😾🛡️🦌🇦🇫🈸🈸🈸🈸🈸🈸🈸😾 🇩🇪⚖️🦌🌌🈴 🇮🇷 🇨🇳🇸🇩🇹🇹🇹🇷🇲🇽🇮🇷🇩🇪🇪🇺🏁🏁🏴☠️🏴☠️🚩🀄️🔲◾️🔺🇰🇵🇺🇦🇬🇧🆚👩🏼🇺🇸👩🏼 BMW of Clear Lake
Slipspace might be a bummer
As long as its not as bad as the Paramount + Series xD.
This series is my medication. Love it. Thanks for showing us this progress!
Friends don't let friends get sponsored by Betterhelp
100%
You should sponsor the videos then
@@It-b-Blair it would be infinitely better if he had a Patreon instead of advertising fake therapy.
He does...@@nzuckman
@@nzuckman tru
I appreciate the honesty of showing your new design is not necessarily better as a trhuster, even if it has some of the other advantages you mentioned. I think you are focusing on the wrong part of this problem though. Changing the shape of the thurster might help make the use of power more efficient but the limiting factors to the flow rate, for constant mass, are going to be the voltage difference across the path along which each ion is accelerating and the charge of the ions themselves. You can't do much about the ions if you are using atmospheric air, so you're only left with addressing the electric acceleration problem. You could also use compression and heat, but it would no longer be a purely ionic engine.
Been with the channel since 800 subscribers and man how it has become better and better :)
Olectralab! Honored to see you here. Yeah you’ve been a big follower for years. I really appreciate you. You’ve seen some big changes.
@@PlasmaChannel You have made leaps and bounds in technology that I can only dream of attempting with my cheap $20 soldering iron and hot glue gun lol. I love i how your channel contributes positively to the internationally followable technology Journey. I can't wait to see what you have planned for the big 1 million subscriber milestone. I use ceramic disc magnets from microwaves to get more thrust on a needle and pipe ionic thruster but yours is way better I was amazed! keep it up, and thankyou for all your contributions to the international and possibly oneday integalactic knowledge base :) keep up the awesome videos. Also I love the editing and way you talk so calmy about something so cool :)
Cool video. Shitty sponsor
tru
As a product designer, my advice is to research what was already done in the "moving air business". Aka fans, vacuum cleaners, blowers, coolers... There are a vast amount of research in aerodynamics applied to those products. Just look what Dyson does by shaping the air flow and utilizing centrifugal forces. They are great source of information.
It's great to see your improvement!
Congratulations!
So in all honesty if you have a taper after all stages are done with a reduction of 15-30% and some splines/fins to reduce turbulence towards the exit and get some better linear flow you can get a massive boost to your velocity.
Love the videos best of luck.
Few design changes I would make
1.) less steep angle so less loss of energy when the air streams collide
2.) the sequential thrusters have diminishing returns, but are more efficient. Using multiple sets of 2 sequential thrusters converging into one stream would give a more efficient and powerful flow I believe.
3.) use a circular thruster and angle the outputs of each set of thrusters in a way to produce a vortex inside the body of the thruster.
Just some ideas.
The first 2 yeah, but making a vortex would waste kinetic energy spinning instead of going directly backwards
@@virutech32 yeah honestly no idea if it could help by pulling in more air with Bernoullis principle or if it would waste energy. it might be good for atomizing fuel if you were to throw the electric only part out the window though haha.
@@gavinhicks7621 It would pull more air by not spinning since that would push air out of the inlets. chemical-ion hybrid would be interesting. probably as an after-burner since flames could compromise the resistance of the air-gaps.
I noticed on your ionic wing video that it seemed like the switch from a flat razor blade to a serrated blade led to a significant boost in velocity. When you turned out the lights you could see how the power was focusing at the points of each serration. Have you tried increasing or decreasing the number of serrations to see what effect that has on output independent of other changes to the design? It would be a simple experiment to conduct, simply swapping out the blades in your current design for ones with flat edges and then blades with say 10, 20, and 30 serrations to see what effect that has? My guess is that there’s a max number at which you will see gains before they start to drop off. I’m also guessing that the max number of beneficial serrations could be related to power input (more power = more serrations before gain’s diminish).
2.) have you tried rotating the drive as opposed to only running it when it’s sitting flat? I would be very curious to see if rotating the drive while it’s running would create a vortex effect, reducing turbulent flow and boosting efficiency and output…
Hi Jay. Did you measure the thrust force in newtons or grams. To check the thrust to weight ratio?
He's probably doing that behind the scenes but I can't imagine him really getting on stage just yet to show those numbers, maybe when he gets further ahead he'll start seriously giving us TWR numbers
C'mon, the flames weren't enough to convince you that this tech could rival propellers? Only engineers are concerned with numbers and established methods of testing. This isn't for you. It's pretend. For views. For people who don't know better
I missed the notification for this one. I always stop what I'm doing for this project. I like your content in general, but this project is FASCINATING.
Thanks so much! So no notifcation? Do you have your notifications set to "all" for my channel?
You could take inspiration from axial compressors, and have your cross-section slowly reduce for each stage to improve and achieve a set pressure ratio by the end. One reason why in your case more stages doesn't seem to help is that all stages are identical. However, downflow stages will need more power and a different geometry since they are fighting a higher pressure. Then, your high pressure flow could go through a converging nozzle to accelerate even further (or just add more and more smaller ionic stages along the way, it might work as well).
BetterHelp sells medical data to advertisers. Do you want to be a part of that?
You're using google
@@snertttGoogle isn't claiming to offer a medical service
@@snerttt usually when you go to a therapist you expect some sort of confidentiality
@@Sh3rr1ff but you're using Google, it's not personal, it's advertising data that you're already giving away by using this website.
@@Sh3rr1ff you're using Google though what's new
Some Physics here is helpful.
You want to optimize for the most thrust for the least power.
You get thrust by accelerating air backwards. The momentum of the air moving backwards is m*v; the kinetic energy of the air moving backwards is 1/2mv^2. You want the most momentum for the least kinetic energy.
Maximizing mv / (1/2 mv^2) you get 2/v. In other words, your efficiency drops the faster you move the air.
However, there's also a few other considerations here!
For one, you seldom will use a thruster like this while truly stationary. And if you're moving forward at 10km/h and your thruster moves air back at 5km/h... you aren't actually making any thrust.
When you work out the optimum, it works out to "you want to move air back at 2x the velocity you are moving forward". This is why props work well at low speeds, then turboprops, then high-bypass turbofans, then low-bypass turbofans, then classic jets, then ramjets, then scramjets, then eventually rockets as you increase speed. It's "all" about the exhaust velocity. (Well, not entirely. But largely.)
However, this then gets into the second consideration: if you want to move air back slowly, you need to move a _lot_ of air slowly. And you can only fit so much through a given, say, 10x4cm hole. Especially if the air is moving slowly.
I suspect if you wanted to maximize thrust at low speeds you could do better by optimizing to improve the amount of entrainment air. Look at e.g. bladeless fans for inspiration.
Or my channel about ion thrusters.
It's always a good day when this guy uploads something. Thanks for the knowledge dump, love your pursuit with this project.
Better help sponsor.....big oof
why do they even spend that much on sponsors
Yeahhhh- recording user therapy data and selling it to Facebook…. Fun
I've seen negative comments about the sponsor what's with it?
@@bendavis6662 something about spending too much money on sponsors and also some other stuff they did
@@bendavis6662 type in better help and upper echelon
If you look at modern thrust jet air flows, you'll see that they use very wide entries on the rear and narrow the channel to get the air compression which then it's next entry is put through and until they can make it the length of the wing that engines sits under.
You need to think about it with compression in mind.
Yay more ionic thrusters!
you should angle each of the 3 segments in each phase to form a vortex in the middle
Your design at 3:15 has me thinking of sequential stages of compression in jet turbine engines. Each stage "packs" more air into the next. I wonder if there is a way to incorporate a larger first section, filled by sequentially smaller diameter but longer stages of ionic thrust. Instead of trying to make more velocity with thrust, try to ingest a larger volume of air into the system while increasing velocity in stages. A simple circuit would allow you to put variable resistors to each stage and dial in the proper voltage for each.
Just $.02 from a newb
Edit to add: just because you have all these technologies available, don't overlook the old geniuses and their slide rules. Look at the rc plane and kite building hobbies for light, strong designs and materials. A shrinkwrap wingover a skeleton frame is way lighter and plenty strong.
To couple with my suggestion about sequential stages of thrust acceleration, look into the horns from old Hitachi motorcycle carburators. Their design reduces the turbulence of incoming airflow, something I think your thrust assembly could make dramatic use of.
Awesome channel and fantastic presentation!
By the way, if you’re into cool tech, check out the self contained ion powered aircraft with onboard power. I’ve seen it in action in person, flying with its own electrical power system onboard, many times since 2006. It’s seriously impressive!! 😉
I share my knowledge: NIM engine. (Negative-Impulsive-Magnetic) Engine. (Because you build things, so why not help a bit)
Nice idea with the waves but you didnt use it yet in your thruster. You recognized some air is sucked into the thruster, although it thrust air out?
What is missing is the consideration of how the air consist and what actually move the air... electrons. Electron speed is determined by the voltage.
If multiple thrusters are in row, it accelerats the air with the voltage-plasma but not beyond the voltage.
Also the distance of the accelerating parts could be 1 factor at your build, also try to get lower ampere with same thrust results.
In SHORT: Air volume calculation, air consistance calculation, thrust calculation with air, thrust efficiency by testing the best volt to ampere ratio, Thrust Frequency.
Air(A): volume x consistance, Thrustfactor(Tf): volt x ampere, ThrustOutput(TO): Tf x A x TF (Thrust-Frequency)
Think of the electrons AS if its waterdrops. Always make the plasma visible once to see where its flowing (helps alot).
Also a magnetic field guides the electrons, because these are negative charged.
yeah, good stuff. Regarding the electrodes potential and air flow, I think it would be worthwhile looking into sequential electrodes at progressively higher potentials, and possibly a pulsed arrangement...
All sounds nice an all but electrons are lost to IONs that provide the thrust so straight off the bat you haven't a clue, lets see " thrust calculation with air, thrust efficiency by testing the best volt to ampere ratio, Thrust Frequency." This is bollocks its nonsense Volts * amps is power in watts and what the hell has that to do with thrust frequency. You got some tart your trying to impress ?
@@ashleyobrien4937 Realy you as well ? FFS
@@andymouse awww, they was on the right track at first, that air has to move and it takes energy to do so...
got carried away with silly things rather than thinking about where the actual action/reaction force is, to MOVE air requires an action with equal and opposite reaction... where is the reaction?
the only thing you have to "push" against is the charged molecules. the inertia of the air molecule, its mass, its refusal to change path, opposing the electrostatic forces. what proportion of air flow is due to charged molecules being repelled/attracted to electrodes, as opposed to neutral molecules being impacted, absorbing kinetic energy, and slowing the charged particles down?
in a way they was right with the voltsxamps. how many watts goes into just making corona, leakage currents, how much is put into actual force over time on the frame, the electrodes?
how much thrust does it make, how efficiently?
air flow is not the same as thrust...
entraining air doesnt create thrust. air that is dragged along by air you pushed on is nothing but drag. ie, dyson fans dont make thrust by accelerating air through the ring, the only thrust is at the nozzles, the air they sucked in and compressed and release at high speed.
but once that air is moving it can perform work if redirected ;)
you have to push on air. or get it to push on something... other than more air!
@@paradiselost9946 Yes I agree with you, and your making more sense but I must correct you It was me that pointed out that W =P x I not them and an increase in watts is going to increase thing to the point where they can catch fire but why did the say 'Thrust frequency ? gobbledy gook ! not a clue
This guy is good at what he does.. I just hope his Mr Wonderful character wont ruin it.
Better help does not employee licensed therapists.
I have an idea !!! Why don’t you make a hybrid ionic thruster ! One with metallic rotating blades and the blades are positively charged and also being driven by a motor and there are bunch of grounded wires at the end
Airflow would be fan+ ionic thruster
I’m not sure but…The air could try to go sideways to follow the blades, slowing them down and blocking input… interesting though… Or it could make an air vortex since you put the grid. (Rotating grid ???)
@@romanbengaldrole4061 🤔 interesting idea , but grids at higher airspeeds kinda became bottlenecks , but ionic thrusters don’t have a very powerful thrust , it would be very interesting to see it in an experiment
@@VandalIO There is a solution : Place a central charged rod, with a higher charge at the end(outputs of generator), and use the Lorentz force to create rotation.
@@romanbengaldrole4061 that’s an interesting one , or we can use a vortex tube like design
Then you need additional airflow from the side, unless you make some of it converge from the side, which is complex, but should be extremely efficient of optimized (I’m not a specialist though)
Nothing more pure than the giggle before setting stuff on fire
when you stack them in series, the electric fields could be interfering with one another.
just as the air can be pushed forward, if you put another thruster in front it could add to an opposing force.
it would insanely cool to see a lightweight drone that can hover using these.
A 30kv power supply and lightweight don't go together very well
I kind of forgot about the power supply. Thank you for pointing that out.@@younscrafter7372
@@younscrafter7372 what about remote power - is there a way to beam electricity at a wire to charge it up?
BEST CHANNEL ON TH-cam at this moment!
My “physics nerd common sense” is telling me that a circular shape might help with a more uniform flow, as the three streams coming from the triangles are probably converging in a pretty awkward way. Also some way of directing airflow from each peripheral thruster(like a duct or something) into a smaller output area in the center would likely help reduce turbulence and increase the velocity of the airflow (assuming you are building this for velocity and not displacement ). I am a high school senior so take this with a grain of salt lmao
Spiral shape! Bending metal is easy.
in this case, the velocity of the airflow means nothing...
air flow is not thrust. the thrust is only due to the mass that is worked upon, accelerated.
and the only mass that is worked upon is the charged air molecules. their mass being repelled and attracted to the electrodes, being moved.
the issue is that a lot of the air flow is produced not by being charged and repelled, but by getting in the way of the charged molecules that ARE being worked upon...
you perform no work on moving that air. that work is due to the air you did perform work upon being SLOWED DOWN.
the only way to get that air to perform work is to make it change direction, it performs work against something... which is what you see when you "blow stuff around"... air slow down, stuff get accelerated away.
on a turntable, against a dyno, a load... i reckon it has virtually no thrust. all blow, no show :)
but if it had a blade mounted behind it, angled appropriately, and spun "backwards" due to redirecting the total flow...
and yeah, cones, ducts, circles, curved surfaces, always better... electrically and aerodynamically...
Come on better help is a really horrible company. They don’t even use real therapists
91% of therapists in the US don’t use any proven techniques
Been a pleasure following the iterations of these thrusters!
Others might have suggested this, but I would suggest a dedicated testing rig that puts the anemometer at either a fixed distance from the thruster, or has variable distance gauges so that you can reliably capture data at the point of highest constructive interference (or multiple points along the air stream).
Excited to see Mark 4!
Bro, why BetterHelp
In the first 10 seconds, you got me to dislike the video already. Betterhelp is not a doling or helpful in any way. I am disappointed that a great TH-camr like you would *ever* accept a sponsorship from them! Do some research before accepting a sponsorship next time!
@Vacuus_01Thats a bad argument, there are enough sponsors who are not this horrible!
@Vacuus_01 I too need to make money somehow, yet I didn't sell my soul to Satan himself.
@@Tyloreanhe dosent choose sponsors they have to choose him. So shut up and if everyone knows how shit better help is then who cares.
@Vacuus_01 this is worse than raid shadow legends
I hear you and appreciate your input. I see your concerns. However, for someone to be triggered so quickly when the entire video has inherent value, inherent, educational, and experience value, to toss the entire video out the window because of a single sponsor that you do not approve of, is very Totalitarianistic.
I just have to say I have been a Bill Oddman fan for years now and the fact that the chaotic menace that he is has brought people together for OS is kinda amazing. He’s like the general no one can predict.
To everyone giving him crap about Better Help, it’s probably more productive to mention your dissatisfaction with the sponsor, but also give some alternatives for those who need that service. That will give the creator feedback, but also help those that need that type of service. Down voting and unsubscribing does nothing to help those with mental health issues.
I understand everyone needs to put food on the table but please don’t take sponsorships from better help if you can help it. They don’t have a great track record and a quick google search can show all the issues and red flags they have.
okay so with this setup and the wing setup try this, Each section up the voltage starting 40w , 80w, 120w. that way the thrust is compressing each Colum from each others max air speed. return should give max speed down wind. just a thought appreciate your videos and hard work.
I’m by far NO engineer like yourself or ever planning to become one, but it seems every jet engine uses a method of compression at the output, nozzle reduction if you will. IE, an adjustment of the orifice to a smaller opening thereby increasing the velocity of throughput whereas your designs seem to focus on being just straight through. Perhaps shrinking the sizes of each acceleration step may produce more velocity? I don’t know, I’m just guessing here. Love your concept and what you’re doing on this channel. Just found it and science is kind of a second love of mine, please keep up the great work. No matter how big or small, every step is ALWAYS a step forward. 👍🏽
11:10 You can literally see how long these projects take because in the next shot of his head, he has a full on beard. Respect! 😊
Use tubes to converge the flow, then use a nozzle on the big tube to accelerate even more
1:11 the start of a man finally acknowledging the power of nature. We truly nothing with out is it. If you think you can make some better than nature that will be your first mistake because somewhere out there nature has been doing it better. BTW please don’t take this as a dis I love you man love watching your videos and hearing your voice stay handsome my brother🫡
I'd suggest putting the fog tray in front of the device and film the intake and internal interactions at high speed. that will give a better view on the interactions and how the air actually moves, as it seems like there's far less efficiency gain per-thruster with this design. Since pressurization reduces the subjective efficiency of each stage, Bill's suggestion to use exponential power scaling for each thruster might work. It also seems as though the third thruster really isn't adding much considering the extra weight it adds. Would more power (and more robust connectors if needed) fed to only two thrusters ultimately be more economical? what happens if you cover the front/top of the 1st thruster? Does that alter the airflow?
3:20 it's not just diminishing returns, it's just Ek=mv^2 :D
You were getting absolutely correct results with Mk 2. Injecting the same amount of energy each stage will yield lesser and lesser velocity due to mv squared over two, doubling the velocity requires quadrupled energy input. Would you mind trying out a christmas tree configuration in order to get a proper convergence? Smallest accelerator at the beginning, "nested" in the second stage, and so on, and so forth , with each stage widening. Another thing to try would be a shared electrode design, where AC drive would power 3 or more electrodes of identical dedign with rounded leading edge and jagged trailing edge, fully utilizing both half waves. Just my 2 cents. Awesome work 😊
3:15 You didn't take into account that E ~ v², because E = ½mv². Since all 3 thrusters in series impart about the same energy on the air (40W = 40 J/s), it would be expected for v²/P to be mostly constant. And that's what you see:
2.1² / 40 = 0.110,
3.2² / 80 = 0.128,
3.9²/120 = 0.127
So it seems that 2 or 3 stages are more efficient than 1 by itself.
If you wanted each stage to contribute equally to the speed of the air (so 2.1, 4.2 and 6.3 m/s after each stage), Then the second stage needed to be 160W and the third stage 360W.
Great video, can you make a video on this for a bladless fan for those hot summer days?
Even as a paper weight, this is the most perfectly modular thing ever built
I have a few ideas for possible improvements?
1. If you used a design similar to this, could you use a high powered fan to accelerate the ionic thrust?
2. Could you use a jet engine's rotatey things to direct the flow better?
Sorry if I've missed why these wouldn't work, but I love the channel! 😍
3:30 Just from a quick look these "diminishing returns" as you said seem very reasonable. Keep in mind that kinetic Energy goes with the square of velocity and the amount of energy gained in a stage is basically the time spent multiplied by the power of the stage. Therefore one would expect to see a polynomial decline of something between 1/x^2 and 1/x^3 from stage to stage. Also because of the increasing speed the continuity equation dictates that pressure must drop which is why pulling in additional air from the side works so well. Given that thrust is just change of impulse, you should attempt to increase the mass flow first and velocity second because impulse is m*v but energy and therefore power required is m*v^2/2. So for a given increase in thrust you would need more energy if you were to achieve it by increasing velocity compared to achieving it by increasing mass flow.
A true bladeless fan! Will be waiting for the commercial version😎
I found you channel yesterday and I keep coming back for more
Remove betterhepl
Why
@@lululala3771 betterhepl bad
Jewish @@lululala3771
Wth
They sell your information apparently
for the different stages. have you tried cascading the voltage? I believe it might help. so having:
emitter 1 @ 120kV collector 1 @ 90kV, emitter 2 @ 60kV collector 2 @ 30kV etc. or something like that. I think that having all the collectors at equipotential can cause reverse ionic currents
Is there going to be another episode of this design??? I've been very entertained by it and inspire. Thank you so much for this valuable content. I'm currently struggling in life with money and cannot support you rn but these vids are valuable and I appreciate all the content creators who create things like this that are genuinely helpful and provide solid info.
I wish Grant Imahara were still around to see this. He built one of those aluminum foil lifters you always see but rarely work well, so be would be super impressed with this.
These inventions remind me of cogmind devices art. So cool.
I like how it went from circle to triangle like Tony's Arc Reactor.
It might be a good idea to be able to precisely measure the static pressure developed as well as the flow rate. In essence your would be developing a thruster curve ( similar to a fan curve). With this tool you you might be able to find the optimal configuration for your thruster designs. You would need to develop a laminar flow element to measure differential pressure and have a fan to pull air through the flow bench at various static pressures. You could plot a curve by measuring static and differential pressure on a graph. Omega and Meriam might be good resources for flow bench design. I would think that thrust is more than just cubic feet/min.
*@Plasma Channel*
1:34 & 1:51 First I thought "Why 3 sides, why not 4?" quickly followed by "why 4 when you could do a pentagon, or octagon..." until the "ultimate" question/answer: *"Why not round?"*
Could you makes several rings (instead of triangles) that all accelerate the air & aims it inwards? It seams very possible.
Maybe you could even give the edge a kind of "fractal"-ish design, just to increase the surface area more? like a hollow star-shape or so? (but that's probably worse than round?)
I guess the answer to *"Why not round?"* is: *"Because easier to build with straight pieces, no need to special-order round knife blades."?*
if you add spacing, but cover the space in between them, creating a tunnel may help, also try rotating the blocks from each other, making the wind rotate inside the tunnel
You definitely need to increase the power at each stage. Maybe even increase spacing at each stage. Right now you are just seeing how much air it can push, but in real world applications it will be pushing air to move itself. This means you can take advantage of airflow ie air scoops for force flow. Each stage would need to be progressively smaller but with larger scoops and more power applied to each stage with the entire thing covered
Hello, I work with plasma/corona and fluid modeling regularly. I love the inspiration from nature, but seems like the convergence idea isn't a great application for fluids, unless you converge them at extremely small angles. The larger the angle of attack, the more turbulence and flow "cancelation" you will get, which basically means you just want to run them parallel to each other ( 0°). Also, you need to think about how the air gets accelerated by ion flow between the electrodes. They are accelerated toward a surface, which means you are moving most the air by entrainment due to the ion flow. Optimizing the electrode geometry to reduce drag off the faces and increase entrainment may give you a big boost. Like others in the comments have said, you shouldn't Use velocity as a metric unless you want to produce fast moving air. If you want a thruster, you want thrust! Measure the thrust with a force gauge. Thanks for the good content and high production value.---- Oh also, you should be carful how much ozone you breath on a regular basis, working with so much air plasma. Ozone is amazingly harsh and may have chronic effects if you breath low levels over time.
the angularity is inducing turbulence and therefore drag in your air column. consider modifying the thrusters into each comprising 120 degrees of a circle, and directing the thruster output offset from parallel to the axis laterally by a small degree. by inducing a vortex in the air column, you reduce turbulence just as bleed air louvres do in an afterburning turbofan. also, you might consider modulating the diameter of the exit with exhaust vanes, or some facsimile thereof. thus, you can increase exit velo significantly
This is a lesson in holding my tung, at so many levels!
Incredible work! I wonder if we'll see Dyson make a bladeless Ionic Plasma fan in the coming years. I hope to see the day where a plane can fly with this technology.
Your works are astonishing. I feel a great comfort watching them proceed. Also it is very interesting how all evolves. These are remarkable. Nevertheless some of your Commentators propose improvements, for example exponential spacing. So i am also very curious how you do propose to deal with turbulent air drag or mentioned venturi effect or an intake and an exhaust stall or other aerodynamic effects etc. in this electrostatic compressor. I see there is a racing car chassi constructor challange. Hehe. There could have been a method of sequential charging of each condensator with a certain frequency to overcome turbulent drag created by pumping this gas through the compressors interior. Also it could take many years before any closing conclusions appear. Though, it all does look very future proof. All the best wishes.😀
You've really got to look at your anode and cathode as structural elements for the next iteration. They're big sections of metal, so can stand in for a lot of the plastic you have within the unit. You could even reduce down both to smaller versions of themselves, or cutting them length wise in half, and still use them as support structures.
Then there are 3D printable materials that are used for aeroplane models that you can use to shave even more weight. Tom Stanton made an Osprey model using some that was super lightweight. So theres a good starting point. Good hunting
This is an awesome project. It would be cool to see a circular (ring-shaped) wing thruster. You'd get the same hollow center you're looking for while also using the support structure to provide lift
By colliding the streams of air in a column you are inducing massive turbulence and a high pressure field behind the engine. that might sound good, but it basically makes the engine need a stronger internal compression to overcome it. I suggest to either increase the size of engine intake the further to the front, or to make them exhaust parallel to each other. In other words, either brute force a large intake into a small output and compress it down with each stage, or make it all flow parallel and avoid compression and go for airspeed. To illustrate with water, laminar flow moves more water compared to chaotic flow at the same pressure and pipe diameter, but if you want to increase the pressure, its easier to just force it down the tube in chaotic flow by increasing the pressure.