The NRL v Rugby Union battle in Australia hasn't been messy at all, it been complete domination by the NRL from the junior systems all the way too the top grades
The ARU picked a fight with League in Australia and now will suffer the consequences. Their only hope was a good world cup showing, Arguably the only commercial advantage Union has in Australia, and they blew it. Now we'll likely see Joseph Sua'ali'i stay in League, ARU pathways being eroded further, Sponsorships redirected to other sports, marketable talent jumping ship and Rugby Union returning to a semi-professional sport in this country... It's a wonderful outcome for the NRL
The main problem with Rugby Union in England is professional clubs living beyond their means. Professional Rugby League clubs have been managing their finances successfully for 130 years. That is what Rugby Union should really learn from League.
As a league fan you will always get arguments on either side but I do feel our game (RL) is going in the right direction. We have now the World Champions St Helens turning over the Aussie champs in their own back yard. New IMG rules for 2025 will see us have a new 12/14 new League. Watch out for my team Wakefield Trinity it's a new era and I fully believe we could reach the dizzy heights like we did in the 60's 🤞we've just sold triple our season tickets from the previous year and were in the Championship. I did feel the Union World Cup was a little bit of a let down to watch. There was very little ball time in play, too many stoppages mainly around the scrums and in all honesty I still feel there is too many players on the park for breaks atttack. If any Union fans want to see a RL game from our World cup last year just watch Aussies v Kiwis Semi Final, you will see the difference and how electrifying the game was. Gotta go down as one of the greatest games in the history of the sport. I just hope one day fans will get on board with our game and see how good a spectacle is to watch. Had my say on our rivals game (Union), football fans on the other hand, wow that game as changed and not for the better. Will leave that discussion for a different forum. Thanks for the video mate 👍
In Australia it certainly hasn’t. Rugby Union destroyed itself. Rugby league has positioned itself as the far superior product with more chances of making it a career. But what a lot of rugby Union people have not noticed is that rugby league is destroying rugby union in the pacific. Nrl clubs are in Tonga and Samoa and Fiji and New Guinea and all the small islands too, building schools finding talented kids and bringing them to Australia for an elite education and chance at stardom all fully funded by the Brisbane broncos or western tigers. Even at the top level rugby league is destroying rugby union in the pacific. At the World Cup before last it was notes that the Tongan team all the players paid to play, they bought their tickets and accommodation and everything. Rugby league found this out, then made a universal wage of $25,000/game per player to play for the pacific nations. So the best Polynesian kids coming up will play rugby league. On top of all this, the QRL has included a PNG team, nswrl has now included a Fiji team and there’s talk of a pacific nations team being brought into the NRL. So while your focus may be on what’s happening in England, rugby union as a whole is taking hits and the big wigs at aru are painfully aware even going as far as telling kids if you wanna be a great wallabies fullback or winger or centre go do rugby league get 3 years in the top grade and come back to Union. Some have many won’t.
The NRL is the best league going in either code. It has everything that a normal rugby fan should want, the collisions, dramatic winger-in-the-corner finishes, the silky skills... and because of the high ball-in-play time it has all of this much more often than your average Union match. And, in this day and age, where Union is afraid to be itself, throwing red cards around for accidents and terrified of players scuffling, the NRL offers the no-nonsense tough product that deep down I think most Union fans want, whether or not they would admit it. While Union definitely has a more 'pure' or 'organic' feel due to its constant contest for possession and the fact that it is genuinely a game for all shapes and sizes, the number of laws and refereeing interventions required to manage this makes union a) very stop-start, and b) extremely confusing for casual viewers. The one area where Union is hands-down better is the international game, and national pride is what draws in millions of casual viewers even if none of them really understand the rules. There are 3-4, if you're being generous 5-6, international Union teams who are playing the game at its elite peak. Frankly I think everything Union has learned from League - the hits, the attacking structure, defence etc. - have made it a better game for the viewer. People like watching hits. People don't like watching scrum resets and they don't like watching kick tennis and they don't like watching countless replays of head contacts. I think if League had the international reach that Union does, honestly there would be no contest. As it is, there's this strange limbo, because international League is a bit of a joke. So League can learn from Union that the international game needs nurturing, because that is where the real money and global influence comes from. Union should learn from League how to be rugby again.
The NRL product is so far ahead of anything in rugby right now. The speed of the game, fitness required, passing skills and attacking movements. Then you have the finishing skills of the outside backs and aerial skills. They are only going to keep copying because it works.
Ruined Union? Are you kidding? Union is doing that by itself with increasingly complex rules and a slow ponderous game. Just look at the breakdown, where players actually look to the ref to ask if they're allowed to go for the ball, and ref decisions that could go either way! How ridiculous. The NRL is often amazing and watching a super rugby game instead of an NRL one is becoming rare, and I'm a union loving Kiwi that played it from a young age. No, Union has a lot to learn still. It could be amazing, but the will to move the game into the 21st century seems to be lacking.
It’s wrecked it. Trouble is, in league you get the tackle count, so you can try moves, get tackled and try again. You get penalised for having the ball in attack now in union, hence alm the kicking. Just watch NZ vs Arg at the World Cup. The intervention of the Aussies caused it as they prefer leeg. Bring back the maul, put in to side going forward. Bring back no gands in the ruck as soon as the ball hits the floor. Have to drive over, suck in forwards. At the scrum: No more penalties-it’s a means to restart the game with an advantage with put in. If you collapse put in goes to the other side. If they collapse you get to play on under a free kick advantage, you won the ball and get to keep it. The original laws were never that it became a point machine. These keep the game competitive, suck forwards into forwards battle and leave space for backs. Scrums aren’t depowered, but just produce goid possession. What do you think
Rugby Australia are delusional to think they top rugby league. League is more entertaining, better at spotting and developing talent, and produce a better national team. Union in Australia still think it is 2002 in terms of tactics and need to make serious changes. The writing has been on the wall for over a decade and only now has Rugby Australia figured this out.
A Union player overseas, I started watching the Aussie RL in the early 90s. I realised quickly that they were the best footballers I had seen. For example, Dan Cole has 100+ caps but doesn’t have an ounce of football in his fat ass. I’ve never seen him pass the ball so maybe he can’t? I see England blow overlaps in every game; throwing unnecessary skip passes, kicking it away. The NRL is a superior product with better athletes and footballers than Union. Alright already with rolling mauls, pick n goes and collapsed scrums. Anybody who gave the NRL a month would soon realise how poor union is as a spectacle.
That part of rugby - the pure and beautiful running game - has been significantly diminished and its not the spectacle it was...when a huge nonathletic prop (who can barely do 30 minutes) is now a regular part of the 15 - that shows that rugby has sacrificed something...
No, rugby league has evolved to be like it is because it has always been pro and money has always been in play. It's already gone through the problems that union is now going through. That's why they removed all contest for the ball. Union was like it was because it was amateur. So if you want union to stay union it has to stay amateur. If not, it'll gradually become more and more like league. You pays your money, you takes your choice. There'll be a split in union eventually anyway between pro and amateur grass roots because the former is sucking the game dry.
I’m from a union background but played a season in Australia years ago and fell in love with the NRL. The influence on union was inevitable on the pitch but it’s a shame the English game in particular didn’t learn more from the business model. It’s not perfect and like all sports products there are controversies but it’s well marketed, incredibly competitive and appears to be thriving.
Couple of points. RL was more semi-pro than pro for most of its existence even up until nineties. Winning mattered because (Hull KR in the early eighties) your match fee was £35 (historically to reimburse your wages for missing work) while winning money was over £200. Players had other jobs just as Union players did. Union's first mistake in the pro era was the contracts they wrote. Secondly, as RL in the late C19th needed paying spectators to pay the wages, they actively looked at ways to make it more spectator friendly and the obvious one was to take two players off the field to make space. RL defence and attack was designed round this, however Union still has those two players which is why League defence becomes so stifling because it works.
also remember when John Bentley, Alan Tait and Allan Bateman went to union from league they were too old for league anymore which really showed the gulf between the two sports on a physical, fitness, toughness and technical level
The crooked feed at the scrum. Cut it out. Let there be competition. I used to love to hear Bill McClaren say they have taken one against the head. No scrum penalties I can recall.
England biggest problem not Rugby league is how many non English players are in the premiership and so many young English talent are going over to play in France and they can't be picked for national side , The RFU need to change something about that you can't allow that to continue.
Totally agree too many overseas players in critical positions like props and centre we should copy like what the French leagues do you can only have a limited number of overseas players in the match day squad.
League has it all over us with ball in play (energy requirements) and general speed and motion (excitement). There is no place for Tubby Twinkletoes esq. in their squads, which in our game is exacerbated by the *tactical replacement laws,* which has only increased the size and lowered the skill set of players, especially for the 50 minute darlings. A fundamental error. Medical replacements using Match day doctors could work though that may be complex, e.g. pre-existing injuries, disclosure, etc? Players now drift slowly into set pieces for the same reasons. More than a bit boring, somewhat self-indulgent and therefore unlikely to fill the stands/sell merchandise, etc. Speeding up play is the key to a long future, the players, the real beneficiaries of any proficiency in Rugby will thank them. Suggestions: Lineout: By the time the ref and linesman have arrived, the pillar and thrower have clearly announced the numbers, the ball can be thrown in (& ban the cleaning towels.) Scrum: No verbal commands by ref, he makes the mark and stands off. Halfback with the feed calls the engagement and could feed and hook with no one in front provided all of their forwards are present. Rock steady tunnel until ball fed, and the ball must travel over 'the mark'. Players making no effort to join the scrum can be penalised. All penalties: Player leaves the field until the next whistle. Ref can override this requirement for 'accidental' infractions.
Union ruined itself, self indulgent, overhyped and turning into gridiron. Oh and BTW, union was 'proffesional' when the started paying plaers in at least the 1960s, not all teams in league were properly full time even by the mid 90s. As for Burgess, he was the best 6 in the league whilst at Bath, not his fault he was picked at inside centre and then scapegoated. Seriously need to give or head wobble if you think Burgess didn't deserve his place, he kept the Lions centre for Wales quiet throughout, it was only when Burgess went off that things went to shit! Short memories these ex union lads!
The positive: professionalism from league kick-started unions fitness and hardness revolution. The negative: stand up tackling makes sense in league, where the game is so much more organised with players lined up and facing each other. It translates badly to Union, which is mayhem in comparison with people of all shapes and sizes all over the place. The idiots that thought Burgess could be incorporated straight into an international union side were just idiots, its not the fault of the respective games that are both similar but simultaneously so very different.
So there are a few things wrong with the game, a few things for the english set up to sort out. I feel that the 8 substitutes in the current game has contributed to an arms race of size. Start three huge front row forwards. Substitute them for three huge front row forwards. Substitute front rower gets hurt, the substituted front rower can come back on. Safety has to be a priority, but the fact that a player might only play 40 minutes is leading to severe bulking up. I would prefer smaller, nimbler players. Let's get away from bulk and hits. That sounds like the NFL
The tactical influences that have come across undeniably work, though. The blitz defence, upright tackles and screen passes you mentioned, but also more tactical kicking and especially the crossfield kick. They just work and in my view aren't an issue (backline moves, for example, are better to watch than ever). Arguably union's biggest problems are in the traditional hallmarks of its game: the ruck, the scrum and the maul. If anything needs to be improved upon in the game (especially for the viewers' experience), its in clarifying or changing laws around these areas. One more thing I would say is creeping in is cynicism and gamesmanship (from players and coaching staff alike) but this isn't a problem league has brought over
Funny how they don't pick up on what makes League more exciting and faster... there is no messing around with scrums... no 20 minutes a game wasted as 16 fat blokes posture and often fail to have a legal scrum in 80 minutes, it's faster and requires a lot of handling skills... I didn't see those skills transferred into England's world cup squad so much,,,
Campese's always been insecure about Rugby League, from back in his early days. He's a click-bait hack, rather than a thoughtful analyst and as lightweight a pundit as he was a tackler. With the end of shamateurism, Rugby Union really should have looked at all the things Rugby League got right and wrong when it came to taxable income. Because RL got a LOT wrong over the decades. But judging by the bonfire of the vanities that is English and Australian RU in the 2020s, they seem to have learned... absolutely nothing at all. In Australia, Rugby Union is spending money it can't afford to buy the occasional NRL star for a sport that's spiralling the financial plughole. Patching the roof while letting the foundations crumble. As for coaching, Rugby Union have learned defensive technique from RL coaches, but have never really looked to sign attacking coaches - you know, the people who can open up those defences that Rugby Union has recently learned. And don't get me started on Rugby Union's illogical addiction to the spin pass at every opportunity, rather than just when it is required. You can't build a fluent attacking move when half the players involved have deficient passing technique.
League isn’t ruining union, union isn’t helping, it just needs to stop trying to copy league and implementing league style rules into the game. Yes I’ve played both and watch both, but as separate sports.
the biggest problem it causes is that of the top 500 players of either code in Australia and New Zealand you've got the best part of 400 of them playing rugby league and that is no disrespect or slight on the wallabies or all blacks. the average salary of a super rugby player is £125,000 (give or take) where the average salary is £300k in NRL (assuming a 2 to 1 exchange rate). and there are FAR more opportunities to play in the NRL than super rugby. that talent drain is impacting Tonga, Samoa and Fiji as well. Union is reliant on strength in that region. I love rugby union and will continue to watch it, but my wife watches league when i've got it on because union is boring. league is more sellable, more action, more like NBA, more sustainable financially. the reality is that league doesn't have to ruin anything though, because the RFU, ARU and international rugby is doing a good enough job of it themselves.
Union in the northern hemisphere has real problems. Although there are big leagues in England and France, the clubs and leagues do not generate enough revenue to be truly sustainable. France relies on sugar daddies, and to some extent England does too. But perhaps more poignant to me is …..the game is just not as much fun to watch now. Is that the fault of league…don’t think so, but the league boys brought incredible organization to defense, but that’s not a fault of league. The game and the business of the game is not healthy……..I fear many, many more clubs will go to the wall and my own beloved Glasgow and Scotland will on occasion punch above their weights, but never make a sustained impact on the game as it remains too small, and will forever be remote underdogs.
Hasn't ruined it, it's just better. League was specifically designed to be a more watchable, more entertaining product. As a result, it's not surprising that it ended up being a better product in a sporting world filled with choice
Im a total Union fan...the only time i ever liked League was back in the days of Offiah, Hanley...plus Jonathan Davies moving codes. Nevertheless you cant say RL has 'ruined' RU in any way. In 🏴 RU has benfitted from RL's lead with professionalism and with defence tactics. The current issue is mostly to do with the situation in Australia where its true that RL dominates RU. But that is simply a commercial issue for them. RU has been left to stagnate in Australia while RL has been marketed much more professionally. Its up to Australian RU to step up their marketing to capture viewers and income.
I believe that Tait, Bentley and Batemen "returned" to Union. They brought professionalism with them, for sure, together with an enhanced skill set. However, unlike future converts, with the exception of Robinson, they already knew the game and adapted.
Another league influence is the 'no hook crooked feed'. The union scrum is a huge differentiator of the game and is so integral as to how the game is structured. The crooked feed has destroyed so many facets of the scrum and I believe is one the reasons why there are so many scrum resets. The art of hooking has now disappeared and the hooker has become a fourth loose forward. There is almost zero chance of 'a heel against the head' when the no 9 places the ball underneath the the no 8's feet - how is this fair to the side that does not get the feed?
Love both sports. You can tell in my name. League went through the growing pains years ago to make it more of a paying spectator sport. They sped it up and made the ball in play more. They need to get rid of calling for the mark and let them play it out. Rugby League has little vision compared to Union when it comes to expanding the game. Union has way more confidence. Love them both.
I grew up in Wigan with close ties to St Helens and to Orrell. So I can appreciate both. As i see it, for union, the NFL style 'situational substitution' of front row forwards has to go. As does the crooked feeds and the miniscule checking of ths tiniest knock ons in a maul for example. Scrum penalties. First infraction of a scrum; reset 10m advanced down the pitch or 10m further in, captains choice. The head injury laws need to be changed too. We're now seeing ball carriers deliberately going off their feet before the tackle to draw a penalty. For league, the replacement of the actual scrum with the delicate hug that goes on at the moment has to be reversed.
Growing up in Australia I played soccer. Final year of school I played Rugby Union. It was so much fun!! So much action - tackling, scrums, running with the ball. Local rugby union games here in regional Australia are action packed - very willing and great to watch. And the referee uses the whistle sparingly. Not the case with internationals and Super 15 games. Here kicking and the referee constantly blowing the whistle seem to dominate the game. The lack of 'ball in play' and constant lining up for penalty kicks takes the fun out of the game. Witness the World Cup Grand Final where ONE try was scored. As a start I believe the points for penalties should be reduced to two and the points for scoring a field goal should be reduced to one. Same as rugby league. Make playing with the ball in hand more attractive. And more emphasis on scoring tries. There is lots to like about Rugby Union. Lots of different facets - full contact scrums, mauls and line outs. Some positive tweaks and rule changes could make it more attractive to watch.
The tipping point here was the clash of the Titans when Wigan stuffed Bath over two legs. The old farts running the RU stood back and opened the door to everything RL. The import of RL coaches has brokered the way for a complete rewriting of the coaching manuals - predominantly in defence. Save for a few exceptions it is now a ‘big’ boys game; with the emphasis on size - look at wingers today and compare them to David Duckham, Rory Underwood, Mike Slemen - Adam Radwan should have 50 caps already - and the game as a spectacle has suffered. Put all this together with box kicking and you have a perfect recipe for a 2 hour borefest.
League is for the spectators, Union for the players. World Rugby believes the game should be as complex as possible to show their intellectual superiority over the "working class" code. The players and the spectators don't know what is allowed in a game anymore, and the crowd applaud like crazy when they win a mysterious penalty.They cheer also when a pile of bodies collapses over the try line, when they cannot even see the ball or who scored (if in fact they did score). But, OMG, they have to "respect the kicker" to show their superior standard they have over league or soccer crowds. Imagine that, stopping the paying customers from creating a partisan atmosphere!! The referees now selectively invoke the playing laws at random, otherwise there would be so little actual continuous play! In the World Cup they actually conspired to look the other way all tournament, name me ANY other professional sport that chooses to ignore the laws of the game, particularly when the world is watching.The answer is NONE, all other sports respect the laws but elite level Union allows a referee to almost dictate who wins a match. How many penalties does a referee award in the dying embers of a game, apparently because a defender had his big toe 10 millimetres too far forward or didn't roll away (because an opponent was deliberately holding him in)? And a game turns on a perverse refereeing decision like that! Union needs to get rid of it's perceived superiority complex, get rid of its governing administrators who belong in a different era, absolutely re-configure the laws of the game to make it watchable and understandable (games are all about penalties) and cut its cloth according to what it can afford without being a rich mans plaything (Sale, Bath, Bristol etc ruining it for all the other professional clubs).
Don’t blame rugby league. Be grateful. I’m glad the public school snobbery of union is disappearing. They both great games and can cooperate and learn from each other. Michael Cheika was coaching the Argentina union side and the Lebanon league side. Fantastic. Sports can be an example to the world on how to be competitive but respectful
Love both games. In general, I think RL has given more than it received to RU. You can’t stop poaching, if the money is right. I doubt Eng would have won the RWC2003 without Jason Robinson. Full backs, Half-Backs, some centers / wingers can play both games very well. Bad for RL. Good for RU, whilst they have more money.
There are so many contradictions in union that just don't add up: the most blatant being mentioned at time stamp 8:17 in this video. If a player runs in front of the pass (in say a back line move) this is totally OK with the referee - yet it completely prevents the opposition from seeing what is happening and it prevents the opposition from gaining access to the player receiving the ball - it is just plain obstruction yet it is totally accepted in the modern game. On the flip side - if player kicks an up and under and the opposition (even if they meters away) even hints at preventing the kickers team mates from accessing the descending ball it is deemed obstruction and this law is enforced very rigorously. The two situations have zero difference yet one is legal and the other is illegal. Needless to say this 'runner in front of pass' was sourced directly from league and must leave the players confused as to when it's ok to obstruct and when it's not.
I think World Rugby is doing a very effective job of ruining rugby union. And in Australia specifically - Rugby Australia is doing that even more effectively.
Rugby league (RL) has had a massive detrimental effect on rugby union (RU), we need to remember that RU was an amateur sport and played for pleasure and not played for reward. Also RU was classified as a participation sport and not a spectator sport which has been dramatically altered by the big TV stations who now rule the KO schedules. I now no longer watch as many games as I did because I'm fed up with this 14 man line spread across the field moving backwards and forwards over the half way line, its utterly boring and predicable. The referees have ruined the scrum (yes I'm a forward) and the new tackle height law is abysmal and doesn't work, its a sledgehammer trying to crack a nut. RU used to be a game for all sizes, now its just a game for steroid enhanced giant muscle men, now even scrum halves look like Precious McKenzie - not my game anymore!
I’m 66 years old and I grew up in NZ, where Union is Rugby NS League is not. When I played Rugby, the game was MUCH better than the mass that it is today. In thoise days, if you lifted anyone in the Lineout, you were penalised. If you changed position in the lineout, you were penalised. If the scrum was deliberately turned in either direction, the team that has caused that is the team that is penalised. That’s it. I played as No.6 or 7 and we never had to stand there for half an hour while the Ref went through some ridiculous four step routine to set the scrum, which puts way too much strain in the backs and legs of the front row. The amount of pedantic penalties and the time wasting that goes on in them, means that in each half, you’re damn lucky if you get more than 20 minutes of actual play. The Refs need to shut the hell up and stop being coaches and let the bloody game flow! AND they need to be consistent! Once upon a time, it was a game which was fast paced and free flowing, where front rowers would maybe score a try or two here and there from the odd 5 metre scrum, but now the majority of tries are scored in this way, which is just as boring as batshit. I wasn’t all that keen on League as a youngster, because I felt that being rewarded for getting caught with the ball was wrong, but in Union these days, the ball never seems to make it past first receiver and there’s a maul or a ruck, or whetever the hell it’s called these days. The last time I watched a Bledisloe Cup Test, the Wallabies couldn’t even string together enough passes to get the ball out to the wing, whereas in my High School 1st XV, we prided ourselves on being able to go out and back without dropping the ball or mispassing it. We were the lightest team in the comp and the only one to hold the heaviest team in the comp to a draw, simply because we knew how to link up! I loved the game as it was played in the 70’s and 80’s, but the bloody shambles it has turned into has soured it for me. Every time I think I’ll give it another chance, I end up watching 80n minutes of frustrating BS that is more like the American Pro Wrestling sham than anything resembling Rugby.
Rugby Union has been reduced to a kicking game. Big internationals are more often than not settled by penalties. League is far more dynamic and try-oriented. If Union is ruined then it's because of its own faults.
The BIGGEST problem in Scotland is the development system. When they do identify kids from poorer backgrounds they use scholarships to get them into the most reputable rugby schools, instead of developing them through the clubs or a solid schools development programme. This maintains the posh boy image it has and disuades folk from even starting. If the league and union GBs stuck their heads together they'd realise a merged system until kids are old enough to deal with the rigours of union forward play is fsr more effective. The kids would have better passing, running and defence skills before they go off and try the different codes. Touch is basically league anyway. Touch for All
Union has been openly professional for almost 30 years. The question should be,why are Union still employing League coaches to move Union forwards? The Union coach education in this period should have integrated the initial information that the likes of Larder brought to England for instance and developed it for their sport without the need to continually look to another sport to innovate theirs. Interestingly the most successful countries , NZ and SA don’t (to the best of my knowledge) employ ex League coaches so perhaps that’s where the NH should be looking for progress within the sport.
That league might be responsible for any of the ills of union is as lazy an argument as trying to blame soccer anytime a rugby player takes a dive or acts the bollocks to a ref. Rugby Union alone is responsible for Rugby Union. l know you're just posing the question tbf.
RU has ruined itself. I have been watching test rugby since 1968. That's not a boast; I'm just an old man now. I reckon the rules were at their best during the late 1990s, and they have been gradually making the game slower and more predictable since then. Nowadays there are too many penalties, too many technicalities, especially at breakdowns, too many yellow cards (15 v 14 is not a contest, at the top level, even for 10 minutes), too many stoppages, too much aimless kicking up and down the field, too many players (let's get back to 15 instead of 23), too much interference by TMO, scrums take too long to set, rules have made the rolling maul, and also pick and go, the most efficient way to score tries from within the opponents' 22, and are too hard to defend against without violating the existing rules. Just my opinion, call me a Luddite if you will.
Union has ruined union. If you watch league and think there's just too much running, tackling and excitement in that game then union is the sport for you
"Back in the day" Union, the payment was not always a good thing as it was often "made up" by beer tokens in my club so it meant we drank on training nights. Far better all above board.
No, union has been the author of its own misfortunes - absurd salaries, boring setpieces and farcical head injury rules (however well-intended) that ruin games.
In Australia, mismanagement has destroyed Rugby Union and it's unfortunate for Union that Rugby League has such an incredible product for people to go to. I can't see how Rugby in Australia survives much longer, especially when the Wallabies are possibly even a third tier team at this point. I still watch a bit of Rugby Union but how are you supposed to be excited by a game where when your team gets possession they just kick it away. Or when your team is 20 points behind and they get a penalty 40m out, they kick a penalty goal, are now 17 points behind, get the kick off and then kick the ball to the other team after the kickoff. The tries are rare and often come through mauls or just rucking which isn't exciting to watch. If you love rugby football, are you going to go watch the Reds or the Broncos? The Storm or the Rebels?
The marketing and promotion of Rugby Union in Australia is completely outdone by the NRL. The NRL have learnt much from the NFL. Even A League soccer is better delivered.
Well I disagree with almost every post here. I watch Union for the competition in trying to win the ball as much as anything else. League has not this, it has only stripping, other than that the physical attempt to win the ball does not exist. Also, and each to their own, I don’t wish to see a game entirely based on running. Despite World Rugby’s best efforts I enjoy the scrum, the line out, the ruck and the maul. League and Union cannot be compared as they have developed on an entirely different idea of how the game should be played. Of course there are issues with the scrum taking too long, that’s down to self inflicted laws about bind, set etc etc. but crooked feeds and too many penalties are also to blame. Having watched a number of English Premiership games this season one can’t but have been enthralled by the speed and skill. League, particularly NRL, has worked amazingly well in promoting its sport, Union has sat on its thumbs worrying about silly amendments to the laws and tried to assimilate league coaches and game plays, to the detriment of the game.
The thing I least like about union is the micro-refereeing of rucks and mauls. These situations are by nature messy but interesting struggles. The referee then blows for yet another marginal interpretation of an infringement. If there's no obvious dangerous or reckless play, they should be allowed to continue even to a stalemate which the players themselves recognise.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts and ideas. IMHO Union has a few minor issues to resolve for broader adoption. Protection for the referees is probably as important as transparency from WR (uncle Bill has been a walking disaster) as is the many pundits (like John Kirwin) constant criticism of the way certain teams (like the Boks) interpreter the laws. The influence of League coaches and players has been great but Union just can’t seem to compete on the money side. We need to embrace what makes Union unique, like scrums, rolling mauls etc A certain way to attract more players could be player safety (specifically concussions), I still think coaches need to train players to go in to a tackle much lower, they need to come up with another way to prevent an offload in the tackle situation. Would be curious to get your view
What a ridiculous spiel. We live in a time when in virtually every international test, multiple yellow cards are virtually guaranteed. And red cards, which were once like hens teeth, are fairly common. Both the men and womens Rugby World Cup finals were affected by red cards. And you advocate for even more safety ? Ludicrous. Nothing is ruining rugby more than the flippant use of the card. I watched the women's rugby league test between NZ and Australia. It was amazing and embarrassing for rugby to see these women putting in tackles that would have been yellow cards for every second tackle in rugby. And the same for contesting the high ball. In rugby, they don't really want the high ball to be contestable so they bring in all these rules (cards) apparently for fkn SAFETY reasons. More safety is definitely not the answer. Rugby league hit way higher on a regular basis and they don't seem to be bitching about concussions and cte. Get rid of those lawsuit averse virtue signalling pussies running and ruining World Rugby.
For England, the RFU has been asleep at the wheel for years... Clubs in the Premiership and Championship should gain more from the TV rights, they should then be forced to live within their means, no players outside of the salary cap should be non England qualified and available players and there should be restrictions on the number of overseas players at each club. We don't have enough resources to go around to develop England players... so why is so much going to Pollard and Russell (and the other 100+ overseas players int he Premiership) when we can't keep our own talent in the UK..?
The rules of rugby league have improved the game over recent years. Rugby union has changed rules too but it is now a game that I cannot be bothered to watch at all. Whereas league is an all action game , union is all stop and start where the interpretation of individual referees decide the result of a match.League players are so professional ,but rugby union players to me seem amateur in their approach.
A major issue with Burgess was that his club wanted him to play back row (As a league fan who watches a bit of RU I would have said his best position would have been no 8) but England wanted him to play inside centre. This was idiotic as he played at prop most of his RL career and never had the pace to play centre. They did the same thing with Andy Farrell who had moved from loose forward to prop towards the end of his RL career (had lost some pace by then) yet they wanted to play him at centre in RU.
People dont realize that a decent number of players in the NRL come from rugby union. They taken during high-school and as union doesn't have anything decent between high-school and super rugby. So I didn't like McLennans style and money splashing around but the point he was tryna bring back guys to union.
First time ever, I REALLY disagree with you, Rich. I love BOTH sports equally - cannot choose between them. Union is certainly better at International level - League is arguably better at club level. 1) if either code has “lost” in England from the convergence it is DEFINITELY League. (Not only Farrell and Edwards, but Sinfield and Forshaw too, would all still be in League but for “big money” offered from Union. 2) Sam Burgess was without ANY doubt the best overall RUGBY player of his generation. Either code, ANY country - but his transition was wholly mismanaged by the Lancaster/Ford/Ford axis. Shameful episode. 3) every team in the world uses the miss-behind pass - NZ long before ANYONE else. World Rugby could easily have stopped it then - as NZ won the 2011 & 15 WC’s by exploiting it - but they didn’t, so now it’s here to stay. And for the spectators it’s a huge positive. 4) there are NO agonizingly slow set-pieces in League so the ball is in play much longer - therefore MUCH better spectator value. Union must start routinely stopping the clock for endless scrum resets and line-out dawdling ….. if your team is behind it is utterly maddening. 5) as for playing injuries, you have far better access to official stats than I do, but my impression is that there are far fewer career-threatening and season-ending collisions in League than in Union - so let’s throw out Campese’s flawed and gobby logic on that front (surprised you give him any credence at all!) So let’s stop all this “elitist” sniping about League dead in its tracks. Union has significant problems - but most of them have to do with ridiculously convoluted rules - and the way that each referee is allowed to interpret them in his own way (and yes, I’m calling out Wayne Barnes and Ben O’Keeffe especially) - and absolutely NONE of them are to do with League conventions. In truth Rich, I’m really surprised that you went down this road. Union has SO MANY ISSUES to address - but this class/style debate is definitively not one of them !!
I think there are elements of both ways with some of the union converts to league (pre union officially going professional) who helped change play. In relation to coaching although there has been success with league coaching in the northern hemisphere has the same thing happened in the southern? (I'm not union fan so don't know). The other point is that in a professional sport everything is more serious and good coaches will be looking at other sports to gain the edge. In Aussie rugby league they were looking at the NFL and college sports in the USA in the 1980/90s. So league coaches made have brought changes but who can say it would not have happened organically. Final point league only went fully professional at the start of Super League in 1996, prior to that only Wigan were fully professional. Australia went fully professional around the same time. So perhaps there may be more of a culture in league for innovation.
Rugby Union has had to adapt to RL by making the game more attractive with lots of tries - very different to days gone by where the highlight of the game was a push over try - the final was a case at point if NZ wasn’t so transfixed on scoring tries they would have won simply by playing boring take the points on offer
Rugby Union brought it all on itself. To high wages for the gate money received, TV rights, etc went straight into to high wages, game is run by know nothing old has beens who like the sound of their own pronouncements, rule changes introduced without thought to intended and also practical application, discipline of players and conduct towards the officials has evaporated and any game that becomes popular brings with it 'fans' who don't understand the game, the ethos or the rules*. They are the 'experts' who cast controversy over every decision, win or loss ever televised from their arm chairs. Union has a lot to learn from league but refuses to do so being the more highbrow game for gentlemen as opposed to the northern working class in this country. They have been going it alone in the UK for well over a century as a profitable game whilst professional union could fold within the next five years. *laws are rules. So what?
Bateman was a union player, as was Gibbs, they went north for the money, not that I blame them in the slightest, even though our best players went north and left Welsh rugby in an utter mess.
Fitness levels are to blame for the demise or lack of entertainment in both codes, union to 13 a side , league to 12 would improve matters .... soccer to 10 also
Yes. If it weren't for rugby league New Zealand would be even better and Australia would be world beaters. The Springboks, Ireland, and France wouldn't stand a chance against the antipodeans if there was no rugby league. Australia and New Zealand would absolutely rule rugby.
RL Has increased professionalism in all areas of the game. Unfortunately RU is not financially competent at all levels. There will be more losses and failures.
Union is in a tricky situation where it can't really tweak the rules to improve gameplay and appeal to more people without becoming more like league. They can try Netflix documentaries and lean on the international game but fans don't want to see kicking duels or 5min breaks in play for scrums. They want fast free flowing rugby which is why 7s has become more popular recently.
League coaches bring so much to union attacks purely because as a game League gives you six tackles to unlock a defence or give the ball away, union can feature 16 repetitive pick and goes because eventually unstoppable force occasionally overwhelms immovable object.
Union is getting worse and worse. Ball is now put in practically to the second row of the scrum. Red cards for unintentional hits to the head. Stupid goal line drop outs.
Theres no issue at all with either game adapting things from other game. Both sports are evolving and adapting to full time professionalism. ATM rugby league is obviously a superior spectacle but I assume that will swing abit in years to come
Nrl thinks they are under attack when they have been taking many union boys at a young age. All the best talent from union in Australia goes to league.
Most of Rugby League's influences came from Union and Aussie Rules. Melbourne Storm utilized their Victorian connections and trained their halves to do cross kicks to the finishers.
The Union game isn't dying but you could certainly say it's not the same game it was, and the rule changes over the past 30-years have helped to push Union towards League style rugby. So, if anything, Union transitioned itself into something league-like. We don't even enforce a straight feed in scrums anymore.
As someone who was brought up on league i do enjoy the technical aspect of rugby union. But the problem for me as a fairweather fan is its also its achilles heel. I enjoy the off the cuff nature of league, being able to run from deep in open field, something that is almost penalised in union if you get tackled away from your team mates. The obvious exceptions to this are Fiji, who play a very rugby league throw the ball about style very evident in the world cup. And as with the first 40 minutes of the France/South Africa game, the fast flowing open style made for one of the best halves of rugby i've ever seen. But as with cricket, i would say the trend in sport is away from those technical heavy games to sports with niche markets to the wow factor like t20 cricket and the NRL.
Defensive lines have ruined rugby union. That came about from law changes regarding rucking, unfortunately. The ball really isn't contested anymore at the tackle. There are few "counter rucks." Then there's mauls, which have really changed since obstruction in them was legalized. Also, I never understood why the law changes regarding 5 meter scrums and lineouts. Then there's lifting in lineouts, which meant contesting dropped considerably. Finally, what was wrong with retreating back into the 22 to kick the ball out?
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The NRL v Rugby Union battle in Australia hasn't been messy at all, it been complete domination by the NRL from the junior systems all the way too the top grades
Even a blind chipmunk finds a nut sometimes
I am a rugby league guy. I can't watch union as it's too stop-start. I love the excitement of league
The ARU picked a fight with League in Australia and now will suffer the consequences. Their only hope was a good world cup showing, Arguably the only commercial advantage Union has in Australia, and they blew it. Now we'll likely see Joseph Sua'ali'i stay in League, ARU pathways being eroded further, Sponsorships redirected to other sports, marketable talent jumping ship and Rugby Union returning to a semi-professional sport in this country... It's a wonderful outcome for the NRL
The main problem with Rugby Union in England is professional clubs living beyond their means. Professional Rugby League clubs have been managing their finances successfully for 130 years. That is what Rugby Union should really learn from League.
As a league fan you will always get arguments on either side but I do feel our game (RL) is going in the right direction. We have now the World Champions St Helens turning over the Aussie champs in their own back yard. New IMG rules for 2025 will see us have a new 12/14 new League. Watch out for my team Wakefield Trinity it's a new era and I fully believe we could reach the dizzy heights like we did in the 60's 🤞we've just sold triple our season tickets from the previous year and were in the Championship.
I did feel the Union World Cup was a little bit of a let down to watch. There was very little ball time in play, too many stoppages mainly around the scrums and in all honesty I still feel there is too many players on the park for breaks atttack. If any Union fans want to see a RL game from our World cup last year just watch Aussies v Kiwis Semi Final, you will see the difference and how electrifying the game was. Gotta go down as one of the greatest games in the history of the sport. I just hope one day fans will get on board with our game and see how good a spectacle is to watch. Had my say on our rivals game (Union), football fans on the other hand, wow that game as changed and not for the better. Will leave that discussion for a different forum. Thanks for the video mate 👍
In Australia it certainly hasn’t. Rugby Union destroyed itself. Rugby league has positioned itself as the far superior product with more chances of making it a career. But what a lot of rugby Union people have not noticed is that rugby league is destroying rugby union in the pacific. Nrl clubs are in Tonga and Samoa and Fiji and New Guinea and all the small islands too, building schools finding talented kids and bringing them to Australia for an elite education and chance at stardom all fully funded by the Brisbane broncos or western tigers. Even at the top level rugby league is destroying rugby union in the pacific. At the World Cup before last it was notes that the Tongan team all the players paid to play, they bought their tickets and accommodation and everything. Rugby league found this out, then made a universal wage of $25,000/game per player to play for the pacific nations. So the best Polynesian kids coming up will play rugby league. On top of all this, the QRL has included a PNG team, nswrl has now included a Fiji team and there’s talk of a pacific nations team being brought into the NRL. So while your focus may be on what’s happening in England, rugby union as a whole is taking hits and the big wigs at aru are painfully aware even going as far as telling kids if you wanna be a great wallabies fullback or winger or centre go do rugby league get 3 years in the top grade and come back to Union. Some have many won’t.
Rugby Union has done a great job of ruining itself, in England at least.
The NRL is the best league going in either code. It has everything that a normal rugby fan should want, the collisions, dramatic winger-in-the-corner finishes, the silky skills... and because of the high ball-in-play time it has all of this much more often than your average Union match.
And, in this day and age, where Union is afraid to be itself, throwing red cards around for accidents and terrified of players scuffling, the NRL offers the no-nonsense tough product that deep down I think most Union fans want, whether or not they would admit it.
While Union definitely has a more 'pure' or 'organic' feel due to its constant contest for possession and the fact that it is genuinely a game for all shapes and sizes, the number of laws and refereeing interventions required to manage this makes union a) very stop-start, and b) extremely confusing for casual viewers.
The one area where Union is hands-down better is the international game, and national pride is what draws in millions of casual viewers even if none of them really understand the rules. There are 3-4, if you're being generous 5-6, international Union teams who are playing the game at its elite peak.
Frankly I think everything Union has learned from League - the hits, the attacking structure, defence etc. - have made it a better game for the viewer. People like watching hits. People don't like watching scrum resets and they don't like watching kick tennis and they don't like watching countless replays of head contacts. I think if League had the international reach that Union does, honestly there would be no contest. As it is, there's this strange limbo, because international League is a bit of a joke.
So League can learn from Union that the international game needs nurturing, because that is where the real money and global influence comes from. Union should learn from League how to be rugby again.
The NRL product is so far ahead of anything in rugby right now. The speed of the game, fitness required, passing skills and attacking movements. Then you have the finishing skills of the outside backs and aerial skills. They are only going to keep copying because it works.
Ruined Union? Are you kidding? Union is doing that by itself with increasingly complex rules and a slow ponderous game. Just look at the breakdown, where players actually look to the ref to ask if they're allowed to go for the ball, and ref decisions that could go either way! How ridiculous. The NRL is often amazing and watching a super rugby game instead of an NRL one is becoming rare, and I'm a union loving Kiwi that played it from a young age.
No, Union has a lot to learn still. It could be amazing, but the will to move the game into the 21st century seems to be lacking.
It’s wrecked it. Trouble is, in league you get the tackle count, so you can try moves, get tackled and try again. You get penalised for having the ball in attack now in union, hence alm the kicking. Just watch NZ vs Arg at the World Cup.
The intervention of the Aussies caused it as they prefer leeg.
Bring back the maul, put in to side going forward.
Bring back no gands in the ruck as soon as the ball hits the floor. Have to drive over, suck in forwards.
At the scrum:
No more penalties-it’s a means to restart the game with an advantage with put in.
If you collapse put in goes to the other side.
If they collapse you get to play on under a free kick advantage, you won the ball and get to keep it. The original laws were never that it became a point machine.
These keep the game competitive, suck forwards into forwards battle and leave space for backs. Scrums aren’t depowered, but just produce goid possession.
What do you think
Rugby Australia are delusional to think they top rugby league. League is more entertaining, better at spotting and developing talent, and produce a better national team. Union in Australia still think it is 2002 in terms of tactics and need to make serious changes. The writing has been on the wall for over a decade and only now has Rugby Australia figured this out.
A Union player overseas, I started watching the Aussie RL in the early 90s.
I realised quickly that they were the best footballers I had seen. For example, Dan Cole has 100+ caps but doesn’t have an ounce of football in his fat ass. I’ve never seen him pass the ball so maybe he can’t? I see England blow overlaps in every game; throwing unnecessary skip passes, kicking it away. The NRL is a superior product with better athletes and footballers than Union. Alright already with rolling mauls, pick n goes and collapsed scrums. Anybody who gave the NRL a month would soon realise how poor union is as a spectacle.
That part of rugby - the pure and beautiful running game - has been significantly diminished and its not the spectacle it was...when a huge nonathletic prop (who can barely do 30 minutes) is now a regular part of the 15 - that shows that rugby has sacrificed something...
No, rugby league has evolved to be like it is because it has always been pro and money has always been in play. It's already gone through the problems that union is now going through. That's why they removed all contest for the ball. Union was like it was because it was amateur. So if you want union to stay union it has to stay amateur. If not, it'll gradually become more and more like league. You pays your money, you takes your choice. There'll be a split in union eventually anyway between pro and amateur grass roots because the former is sucking the game dry.
I’m from a union background but played a season in Australia years ago and fell in love with the NRL. The influence on union was inevitable on the pitch but it’s a shame the English game in particular didn’t learn more from the business model. It’s not perfect and like all sports products there are controversies but it’s well marketed, incredibly competitive and appears to be thriving.
Couple of points. RL was more semi-pro than pro for most of its existence even up until nineties. Winning mattered because (Hull KR in the early eighties) your match fee was £35 (historically to reimburse your wages for missing work) while winning money was over £200. Players had other jobs just as Union players did. Union's first mistake in the pro era was the contracts they wrote.
Secondly, as RL in the late C19th needed paying spectators to pay the wages, they actively looked at ways to make it more spectator friendly and the obvious one was to take two players off the field to make space. RL defence and attack was designed round this, however Union still has those two players which is why League defence becomes so stifling because it works.
also remember when John Bentley, Alan Tait and Allan Bateman went to union from league they were too old for league anymore which really showed the gulf between the two sports on a physical, fitness, toughness and technical level
The crooked feed at the scrum. Cut it out. Let there be competition. I used to love to hear Bill McClaren say they have taken one against the head. No scrum penalties I can recall.
England biggest problem not Rugby league is how many non English players are in the premiership and so many young English talent are going over to play in France and they can't be picked for national side , The RFU need to change something about that you can't allow that to continue.
Totally agree too many overseas players in critical positions like props and centre we should copy like what the French leagues do you can only have a limited number of overseas players in the match day squad.
League has it all over us with ball in play (energy requirements) and general speed and motion (excitement). There is no place for Tubby Twinkletoes esq. in their squads, which in our game is exacerbated by the *tactical replacement laws,* which has only increased the size and lowered the skill set of players, especially for the 50 minute darlings. A fundamental error. Medical replacements using Match day doctors could work though that may be complex, e.g. pre-existing injuries, disclosure, etc? Players now drift slowly into set pieces for the same reasons. More than a bit boring, somewhat self-indulgent and therefore unlikely to fill the stands/sell merchandise, etc. Speeding up play is the key to a long future, the players, the real beneficiaries of any proficiency in Rugby will thank them.
Suggestions:
Lineout: By the time the ref and linesman have arrived, the pillar and thrower have clearly announced the numbers, the ball can be thrown in (& ban the cleaning towels.)
Scrum: No verbal commands by ref, he makes the mark and stands off. Halfback with the feed calls the engagement and could feed and hook with no one in front provided all of their forwards are present. Rock steady tunnel until ball fed, and the ball must travel over 'the mark'. Players making no effort to join the scrum can be penalised.
All penalties: Player leaves the field until the next whistle. Ref can override this requirement for 'accidental' infractions.
Union ruined itself, self indulgent, overhyped and turning into gridiron.
Oh and BTW, union was 'proffesional' when the started paying plaers in at least the 1960s, not all teams in league were properly full time even by the mid 90s.
As for Burgess, he was the best 6 in the league whilst at Bath, not his fault he was picked at inside centre and then scapegoated. Seriously need to give or head wobble if you think Burgess didn't deserve his place, he kept the Lions centre for Wales quiet throughout, it was only when Burgess went off that things went to shit!
Short memories these ex union lads!
The positive: professionalism from league kick-started unions fitness and hardness revolution.
The negative: stand up tackling makes sense in league, where the game is so much more organised with players lined up and facing each other. It translates badly to Union, which is mayhem in comparison with people of all shapes and sizes all over the place.
The idiots that thought Burgess could be incorporated straight into an international union side were just idiots, its not the fault of the respective games that are both similar but simultaneously so very different.
So there are a few things wrong with the game, a few things for the english set up to sort out. I feel that the 8 substitutes in the current game has contributed to an arms race of size. Start three huge front row forwards. Substitute them for three huge front row forwards. Substitute front rower gets hurt, the substituted front rower can come back on. Safety has to be a priority, but the fact that a player might only play 40 minutes is leading to severe bulking up. I would prefer smaller, nimbler players. Let's get away from bulk and hits. That sounds like the NFL
The tactical influences that have come across undeniably work, though. The blitz defence, upright tackles and screen passes you mentioned, but also more tactical kicking and especially the crossfield kick. They just work and in my view aren't an issue (backline moves, for example, are better to watch than ever).
Arguably union's biggest problems are in the traditional hallmarks of its game: the ruck, the scrum and the maul. If anything needs to be improved upon in the game (especially for the viewers' experience), its in clarifying or changing laws around these areas.
One more thing I would say is creeping in is cynicism and gamesmanship (from players and coaching staff alike) but this isn't a problem league has brought over
Funny how they don't pick up on what makes League more exciting and faster... there is no messing around with scrums... no 20 minutes a game wasted as 16 fat blokes posture and often fail to have a legal scrum in 80 minutes, it's faster and requires a lot of handling skills... I didn't see those skills transferred into England's world cup squad so much,,,
Campese's always been insecure about Rugby League, from back in his early days. He's a click-bait hack, rather than a thoughtful analyst and as lightweight a pundit as he was a tackler.
With the end of shamateurism, Rugby Union really should have looked at all the things Rugby League got right and wrong when it came to taxable income. Because RL got a LOT wrong over the decades. But judging by the bonfire of the vanities that is English and Australian RU in the 2020s, they seem to have learned... absolutely nothing at all.
In Australia, Rugby Union is spending money it can't afford to buy the occasional NRL star for a sport that's spiralling the financial plughole. Patching the roof while letting the foundations crumble.
As for coaching, Rugby Union have learned defensive technique from RL coaches, but have never really looked to sign attacking coaches - you know, the people who can open up those defences that Rugby Union has recently learned.
And don't get me started on Rugby Union's illogical addiction to the spin pass at every opportunity, rather than just when it is required. You can't build a fluent attacking move when half the players involved have deficient passing technique.
League isn’t ruining union, union isn’t helping, it just needs to stop trying to copy league and implementing league style rules into the game. Yes I’ve played both and watch both, but as separate sports.
the biggest problem it causes is that of the top 500 players of either code in Australia and New Zealand you've got the best part of 400 of them playing rugby league and that is no disrespect or slight on the wallabies or all blacks. the average salary of a super rugby player is £125,000 (give or take) where the average salary is £300k in NRL (assuming a 2 to 1 exchange rate). and there are FAR more opportunities to play in the NRL than super rugby. that talent drain is impacting Tonga, Samoa and Fiji as well. Union is reliant on strength in that region.
I love rugby union and will continue to watch it, but my wife watches league when i've got it on because union is boring. league is more sellable, more action, more like NBA, more sustainable financially.
the reality is that league doesn't have to ruin anything though, because the RFU, ARU and international rugby is doing a good enough job of it themselves.
I so wish Union hadn't been held back by posh old boys for so long. Good video
Union in the northern hemisphere has real problems. Although there are big leagues in England and France, the clubs and leagues do not generate enough revenue to be truly sustainable. France relies on sugar daddies, and to some extent England does too.
But perhaps more poignant to me is …..the game is just not as much fun to watch now. Is that the fault of league…don’t think so, but the league boys brought incredible organization to defense, but that’s not a fault of league.
The game and the business of the game is not healthy……..I fear many, many more clubs will go to the wall and my own beloved Glasgow and Scotland will on occasion punch above their weights, but never make a sustained impact on the game as it remains too small, and will forever be remote underdogs.
Hasn't ruined it, it's just better. League was specifically designed to be a more watchable, more entertaining product. As a result, it's not surprising that it ended up being a better product in a sporting world filled with choice
league is faster , more brutal tackling ,entertaining and way better in every aspect .
The NRL absolutely kills Rugby Union everywhere. So much faster, rougher, and more skilled.
Im a total Union fan...the only time i ever liked League was back in the days of Offiah, Hanley...plus Jonathan Davies moving codes.
Nevertheless you cant say RL has 'ruined' RU in any way. In 🏴 RU has benfitted from RL's lead with professionalism and with defence tactics.
The current issue is mostly to do with the situation in Australia where its true that RL dominates RU. But that is simply a commercial issue for them. RU has been left to stagnate in Australia while RL has been marketed much more professionally. Its up to Australian RU to step up their marketing to capture viewers and income.
I believe that Tait, Bentley and Batemen "returned" to Union. They brought professionalism with them, for sure, together with an enhanced skill set. However, unlike future converts, with the exception of Robinson, they already knew the game and adapted.
Another league influence is the 'no hook crooked feed'. The union scrum is a huge differentiator of the game and is so integral as to how the game is structured. The crooked feed has destroyed so many facets of the scrum and I believe is one the reasons why there are so many scrum resets. The art of hooking has now disappeared and the hooker has become a fourth loose forward. There is almost zero chance of 'a heel against the head' when the no 9 places the ball underneath the the no 8's feet - how is this fair to the side that does not get the feed?
Love both sports. You can tell in my name. League went through the growing pains years ago to make it more of a paying spectator sport. They sped it up and made the ball in play more. They need to get rid of calling for the mark and let them play it out. Rugby League has little vision compared to Union when it comes to expanding the game. Union has way more confidence. Love them both.
I grew up in Wigan with close ties to St Helens and to Orrell. So I can appreciate both. As i see it, for union, the NFL style 'situational substitution' of front row forwards has to go. As does the crooked feeds and the miniscule checking of ths tiniest knock ons in a maul for example.
Scrum penalties. First infraction of a scrum; reset 10m advanced down the pitch or 10m further in, captains choice.
The head injury laws need to be changed too. We're now seeing ball carriers deliberately going off their feet before the tackle to draw a penalty.
For league, the replacement of the actual scrum with the delicate hug that goes on at the moment has to be reversed.
Growing up in Australia I played soccer. Final year of school I played Rugby Union. It was so much fun!! So much action - tackling, scrums, running with the ball.
Local rugby union games here in regional Australia are action packed - very willing and great to watch. And the referee uses the whistle sparingly.
Not the case with internationals and Super 15 games. Here kicking and the referee constantly blowing the whistle seem to dominate the game. The lack of 'ball in play' and constant lining up for penalty kicks takes the fun out of the game.
Witness the World Cup Grand Final where ONE try was scored.
As a start I believe the points for penalties should be reduced to two and the points for scoring a field goal should be reduced to one. Same as rugby league. Make playing with the ball in hand more attractive. And more emphasis on scoring tries.
There is lots to like about Rugby Union. Lots of different facets - full contact scrums, mauls and line outs.
Some positive tweaks and rule changes could make it more attractive to watch.
The tipping point here was the clash of the Titans when Wigan stuffed Bath over two legs. The old farts running the RU stood back and opened the door to everything RL. The import of RL coaches has brokered the way for a complete rewriting of the coaching manuals - predominantly in defence. Save for a few exceptions it is now a ‘big’ boys game; with the emphasis on size - look at wingers today and compare them to David Duckham, Rory Underwood, Mike Slemen - Adam Radwan should have 50 caps already - and the game as a spectacle has suffered. Put all this together with box kicking and you have a perfect recipe for a 2 hour borefest.
League is for the spectators, Union for the players.
World Rugby believes the game should be as complex as possible to show their intellectual superiority over the "working class" code. The players and the spectators don't know what is allowed in a game anymore, and the crowd applaud like crazy when they win a mysterious penalty.They cheer also when a pile of bodies collapses over the try line, when they cannot even see the ball or who scored (if in fact they did score). But, OMG, they have to "respect the kicker" to show their superior standard they have over league or soccer crowds. Imagine that, stopping the paying customers from creating a partisan atmosphere!!
The referees now selectively invoke the playing laws at random, otherwise there would be so little actual continuous play! In the World Cup they actually conspired to look the other way all tournament, name me ANY other professional sport that chooses to ignore the laws of the game, particularly when the world is watching.The answer is NONE, all other sports respect the laws but elite level Union allows a referee to almost dictate who wins a match.
How many penalties does a referee award in the dying embers of a game, apparently because a defender had his big toe 10 millimetres too far forward or didn't roll away (because an opponent was deliberately holding him in)? And a game turns on a perverse refereeing decision like that!
Union needs to get rid of it's perceived superiority complex, get rid of its governing administrators who belong in a different era, absolutely re-configure the laws of the game to make it watchable and understandable (games are all about penalties) and cut its cloth according to what it can afford without being a rich mans plaything (Sale, Bath, Bristol etc ruining it for all the other professional clubs).
I saw cross kicks long before I had ever heard of Rugby League!
Don’t blame rugby league. Be grateful. I’m glad the public school snobbery of union is disappearing. They both great games and can cooperate and learn from each other.
Michael Cheika was coaching the Argentina union side and the Lebanon league side. Fantastic. Sports can be an example to the world on how to be competitive but respectful
Love both games. In general, I think RL has given more than it received to RU. You can’t stop poaching, if the money is right. I doubt Eng would have won the RWC2003 without Jason Robinson. Full backs, Half-Backs, some centers / wingers can play both games very well. Bad for RL. Good for RU, whilst they have more money.
There are so many contradictions in union that just don't add up: the most blatant being mentioned at time stamp 8:17 in this video. If a player runs in front of the pass (in say a back line move) this is totally OK with the referee - yet it completely prevents the opposition from seeing what is happening and it prevents the opposition from gaining access to the player receiving the ball - it is just plain obstruction yet it is totally accepted in the modern game. On the flip side - if player kicks an up and under and the opposition (even if they meters away) even hints at preventing the kickers team mates from accessing the descending ball it is deemed obstruction and this law is enforced very rigorously. The two situations have zero difference yet one is legal and the other is illegal. Needless to say this 'runner in front of pass' was sourced directly from league and must leave the players confused as to when it's ok to obstruct and when it's not.
League wasnt fully professional until the 1990s before that players had day jobs
I think World Rugby is doing a very effective job of ruining rugby union.
And in Australia specifically - Rugby Australia is doing that even more effectively.
I wonder what a hybrid of the two codes would be like?
Rugby league (RL) has had a massive detrimental effect on rugby union (RU), we need to remember that RU was an amateur sport and played for pleasure and not played for reward. Also RU was classified as a participation sport and not a spectator sport which has been dramatically altered by the big TV stations who now rule the KO schedules. I now no longer watch as many games as I did because I'm fed up with this 14 man line spread across the field moving backwards and forwards over the half way line, its utterly boring and predicable. The referees have ruined the scrum (yes I'm a forward) and the new tackle height law is abysmal and doesn't work, its a sledgehammer trying to crack a nut. RU used to be a game for all sizes, now its just a game for steroid enhanced giant muscle men, now even scrum halves look like Precious McKenzie - not my game anymore!
The only place League is giving Union issues is in Australia.
Everything you mentioned has improved rugby union, except for the "squeeze ball" which, as you say, didn't come from league at all.
I’m 66 years old and I grew up in NZ, where Union is Rugby NS League is not. When I played Rugby, the game was MUCH better than the mass that it is today. In thoise days, if you lifted anyone in the Lineout, you were penalised. If you changed position in the lineout, you were penalised. If the scrum was deliberately turned in either direction, the team that has caused that is the team that is penalised. That’s it. I played as No.6 or 7 and we never had to stand there for half an hour while the Ref went through some ridiculous four step routine to set the scrum, which puts way too much strain in the backs and legs of the front row. The amount of pedantic penalties and the time wasting that goes on in them, means that in each half, you’re damn lucky if you get more than 20 minutes of actual play. The Refs need to shut the hell up and stop being coaches and let the bloody game flow! AND they need to be consistent!
Once upon a time, it was a game which was fast paced and free flowing, where front rowers would maybe score a try or two here and there from the odd 5 metre scrum, but now the majority of tries are scored in this way, which is just as boring as batshit. I wasn’t all that keen on League as a youngster, because I felt that being rewarded for getting caught with the ball was wrong, but in Union these days, the ball never seems to make it past first receiver and there’s a maul or a ruck, or whetever the hell it’s called these days. The last time I watched a Bledisloe Cup Test, the Wallabies couldn’t even string together enough passes to get the ball out to the wing, whereas in my High School 1st XV, we prided ourselves on being able to go out and back without dropping the ball or mispassing it. We were the lightest team in the comp and the only one to hold the heaviest team in the comp to a draw, simply because we knew how to link up!
I loved the game as it was played in the 70’s and 80’s, but the bloody shambles it has turned into has soured it for me. Every time I think I’ll give it another chance, I end up watching 80n minutes of frustrating BS that is more like the American Pro Wrestling sham than anything resembling Rugby.
Rugby Union has been reduced to a kicking game. Big internationals are more often than not settled by penalties. League is far more dynamic and try-oriented. If Union is ruined then it's because of its own faults.
The BIGGEST problem in Scotland is the development system. When they do identify kids from poorer backgrounds they use scholarships to get them into the most reputable rugby schools, instead of developing them through the clubs or a solid schools development programme. This maintains the posh boy image it has and disuades folk from even starting.
If the league and union GBs stuck their heads together they'd realise a merged system until kids are old enough to deal with the rigours of union forward play is fsr more effective. The kids would have better passing, running and defence skills before they go off and try the different codes. Touch is basically league anyway. Touch for All
Union has been openly professional for almost 30 years. The question should be,why are Union still employing League coaches to move Union forwards? The Union coach education in this period should have integrated the initial information that the likes of Larder brought to England for instance and developed it for their sport without the need to continually look to another sport to innovate theirs. Interestingly the most successful countries , NZ and SA don’t (to the best of my knowledge) employ ex League coaches so perhaps that’s where the NH should be looking for progress within the sport.
i grew up playing union but can only watch league now as it is a lot more exciting to watch. the tackle laws have completely ruined the game for me
That league might be responsible for any of the ills of union is as lazy an argument as trying to blame soccer anytime a rugby player takes a dive or acts the bollocks to a ref. Rugby Union alone is responsible for Rugby Union. l know you're just posing the question tbf.
RU has ruined itself.
I have been watching test rugby since 1968. That's not a boast; I'm just an old man now. I reckon the rules were at their best during the late 1990s, and they have been gradually making the game slower and more predictable since then. Nowadays there are too many penalties, too many technicalities, especially at breakdowns, too many yellow cards (15 v 14 is not a contest, at the top level, even for 10 minutes), too many stoppages, too much aimless kicking up and down the field, too many players (let's get back to 15 instead of 23), too much interference by TMO, scrums take too long to set, rules have made the rolling maul, and also pick and go, the most efficient way to score tries from within the opponents' 22, and are too hard to defend against without violating the existing rules.
Just my opinion, call me a Luddite if you will.
Union has ruined union. If you watch league and think there's just too much running, tackling and excitement in that game then union is the sport for you
Or you think gaining possession should be a real fight
Union is lame af.. 1 man shoving 2 men up 3 men's bums..
Playing for penalty goals is boring. I'd rather watch paint dry..
Matt Williams and John Kirwan have entered the chat..... no more props and no more scrums😂
"Back in the day" Union, the payment was not always a good thing as it was often "made up" by beer tokens in my club so it meant we drank on training nights. Far better all above board.
No, union has been the author of its own misfortunes - absurd salaries, boring setpieces and farcical head injury rules (however well-intended) that ruin games.
In Australia, mismanagement has destroyed Rugby Union and it's unfortunate for Union that Rugby League has such an incredible product for people to go to. I can't see how Rugby in Australia survives much longer, especially when the Wallabies are possibly even a third tier team at this point. I still watch a bit of Rugby Union but how are you supposed to be excited by a game where when your team gets possession they just kick it away. Or when your team is 20 points behind and they get a penalty 40m out, they kick a penalty goal, are now 17 points behind, get the kick off and then kick the ball to the other team after the kickoff. The tries are rare and often come through mauls or just rucking which isn't exciting to watch. If you love rugby football, are you going to go watch the Reds or the Broncos? The Storm or the Rebels?
The marketing and promotion of Rugby Union in Australia is completely outdone by the NRL. The NRL have learnt much from the NFL. Even A League soccer is better delivered.
Well I disagree with almost every post here. I watch Union for the competition in trying to win the ball as much as anything else. League has not this, it has only stripping, other than that the physical attempt to win the ball does not exist. Also, and each to their own, I don’t wish to see a game entirely based on running. Despite World Rugby’s best efforts I enjoy the scrum, the line out, the ruck and the maul. League and Union cannot be compared as they have developed on an entirely different idea of how the game should be played. Of course there are issues with the scrum taking too long, that’s down to self inflicted laws about bind, set etc etc. but crooked feeds and too many penalties are also to blame. Having watched a number of English Premiership games this season one can’t but have been enthralled by the speed and skill. League, particularly NRL, has worked amazingly well in promoting its sport, Union has sat on its thumbs worrying about silly amendments to the laws and tried to assimilate league coaches and game plays, to the detriment of the game.
The thing I least like about union is the micro-refereeing of rucks and mauls. These situations are by nature messy but interesting struggles. The referee then blows for yet another marginal interpretation of an infringement. If there's no obvious dangerous or reckless play, they should be allowed to continue even to a stalemate which the players themselves recognise.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts and ideas. IMHO Union has a few minor issues to resolve for broader adoption.
Protection for the referees is probably as important as transparency from WR (uncle Bill has been a walking disaster) as is the many pundits (like John Kirwin) constant criticism of the way certain teams (like the Boks) interpreter the laws.
The influence of League coaches and players has been great but Union just can’t seem to compete on the money side. We need to embrace what makes Union unique, like scrums, rolling mauls etc
A certain way to attract more players could be player safety (specifically concussions), I still think coaches need to train players to go in to a tackle much lower, they need to come up with another way to prevent an offload in the tackle situation.
Would be curious to get your view
What a ridiculous spiel. We live in a time when in virtually every international test, multiple yellow cards are virtually guaranteed. And red cards, which were once like hens teeth, are fairly common. Both the men and womens Rugby World Cup finals were affected by red cards. And you advocate for even more safety ? Ludicrous. Nothing is ruining rugby more than the flippant use of the card.
I watched the women's rugby league test between NZ and Australia. It was amazing and embarrassing for rugby to see these women putting in tackles that would have been yellow cards for every second tackle in rugby. And the same for contesting the high ball. In rugby, they don't really want the high ball to be contestable so they bring in all these rules (cards) apparently for fkn SAFETY reasons.
More safety is definitely not the answer. Rugby league hit way higher on a regular basis and they don't seem to be bitching about concussions and cte.
Get rid of those lawsuit averse virtue signalling pussies running and ruining World Rugby.
Good video. It's never too late. The powers that be, if they want change should just make it.
For England, the RFU has been asleep at the wheel for years... Clubs in the Premiership and Championship should gain more from the TV rights, they should then be forced to live within their means, no players outside of the salary cap should be non England qualified and available players and there should be restrictions on the number of overseas players at each club. We don't have enough resources to go around to develop England players... so why is so much going to Pollard and Russell (and the other 100+ overseas players int he Premiership) when we can't keep our own talent in the UK..?
The rules of rugby league have improved the game over recent years. Rugby union has changed rules too but it is now a game that I cannot be bothered to watch at all. Whereas league is an all action game , union is all stop and start where the interpretation of individual referees decide the result of a match.League players are so professional ,but rugby union players to me seem amateur in their approach.
A major issue with Burgess was that his club wanted him to play back row (As a league fan who watches a bit of RU I would have said his best position would have been no 8) but England wanted him to play inside centre. This was idiotic as he played at prop most of his RL career and never had the pace to play centre. They did the same thing with Andy Farrell who had moved from loose forward to prop towards the end of his RL career (had lost some pace by then) yet they wanted to play him at centre in RU.
People dont realize that a decent number of players in the NRL come from rugby union. They taken during high-school and as union doesn't have anything decent between high-school and super rugby.
So I didn't like McLennans style and money splashing around but the point he was tryna bring back guys to union.
First time ever, I REALLY disagree with you, Rich. I love BOTH sports equally - cannot choose between them. Union is certainly better at International level - League is arguably better at club level.
1) if either code has “lost” in England from the convergence it is DEFINITELY League. (Not only Farrell and Edwards, but Sinfield and Forshaw too, would all still be in League but for “big money” offered from Union.
2) Sam Burgess was without ANY doubt the best overall RUGBY player of his generation. Either code, ANY country - but his transition was wholly mismanaged by the Lancaster/Ford/Ford axis. Shameful episode.
3) every team in the world uses the miss-behind pass - NZ long before ANYONE else. World Rugby could easily have stopped it then - as NZ won the 2011 & 15 WC’s by exploiting it - but they didn’t, so now it’s here to stay. And for the spectators it’s a huge positive.
4) there are NO agonizingly slow set-pieces in League so the ball is in play much longer - therefore MUCH better spectator value. Union must start routinely stopping the clock for endless scrum resets and line-out dawdling ….. if your team is behind it is utterly maddening.
5) as for playing injuries, you have far better access to official stats than I do, but my impression is that there are far fewer career-threatening and season-ending collisions in League than in Union - so let’s throw out Campese’s flawed and gobby logic on that front (surprised you give him any credence at all!)
So let’s stop all this “elitist” sniping about League dead in its tracks. Union has significant problems - but most of them have to do with ridiculously convoluted rules - and the way that each referee is allowed to interpret them in his own way (and yes, I’m calling out Wayne Barnes and Ben O’Keeffe especially) - and absolutely NONE of them are to do with League conventions.
In truth Rich, I’m really surprised that you went down this road. Union has SO MANY ISSUES to address - but this class/style debate is definitively not one of them !!
I think there are elements of both ways with some of the union converts to league (pre union officially going professional) who helped change play. In relation to coaching although there has been success with league coaching in the northern hemisphere has the same thing happened in the southern? (I'm not union fan so don't know). The other point is that in a professional sport everything is more serious and good coaches will be looking at other sports to gain the edge. In Aussie rugby league they were looking at the NFL and college sports in the USA in the 1980/90s. So league coaches made have brought changes but who can say it would not have happened organically. Final point league only went fully professional at the start of Super League in 1996, prior to that only Wigan were fully professional. Australia went fully professional around the same time. So perhaps there may be more of a culture in league for innovation.
Rugby Union has had to adapt to RL by making the game more attractive with lots of tries - very different to days gone by where the highlight of the game was a push over try - the final was a case at point if NZ wasn’t so transfixed on scoring tries they would have won simply by playing boring take the points on offer
Rugby Union brought it all on itself. To high wages for the gate money received, TV rights, etc went straight into to high wages, game is run by know nothing old has beens who like the sound of their own pronouncements, rule changes introduced without thought to intended and also practical application, discipline of players and conduct towards the officials has evaporated and any game that becomes popular brings with it 'fans' who don't understand the game, the ethos or the rules*. They are the 'experts' who cast controversy over every decision, win or loss ever televised from their arm chairs. Union has a lot to learn from league but refuses to do so being the more highbrow game for gentlemen as opposed to the northern working class in this country. They have been going it alone in the UK for well over a century as a profitable game whilst professional union could fold within the next five years.
*laws are rules. So what?
League is faster, more skilful and there is constant action with no “Forming square” napoleonic style!
Bateman was a union player, as was Gibbs, they went north for the money, not that I blame them in the slightest, even though our best players went north and left Welsh rugby in an utter mess.
Fitness levels are to blame for the demise or lack of entertainment in both codes, union to 13 a side , league to 12 would improve matters .... soccer to 10 also
To be fair RL as improved the speed and fitness of Union players...👍
Very interesting, well researched and excellent preventing
Yes. If it weren't for rugby league New Zealand would be even better and Australia would be world beaters. The Springboks, Ireland, and France wouldn't stand a chance against the antipodeans if there was no rugby league. Australia and New Zealand would absolutely rule rugby.
Union is a private school game, the elbow patch brigade will never accept upstarts without the old school tie.
RL Has increased professionalism in all areas of the game. Unfortunately RU is not financially competent at all levels. There will be more losses and failures.
Why did the word "hit" seem to trigger you? Genuinely curious.
Union is in a tricky situation where it can't really tweak the rules to improve gameplay and appeal to more people without becoming more like league. They can try Netflix documentaries and lean on the international game but fans don't want to see kicking duels or 5min breaks in play for scrums. They want fast free flowing rugby which is why 7s has become more popular recently.
League coaches bring so much to union attacks purely because as a game League gives you six tackles to unlock a defence or give the ball away, union can feature 16 repetitive pick and goes because eventually unstoppable force occasionally overwhelms immovable object.
Union is getting worse and worse. Ball is now put in practically to the second row of the scrum. Red cards for unintentional hits to the head. Stupid goal line drop outs.
Watch the 2023 NRL grand final and the 2023 RWC grand final… LEAGUE IS KING
Saw the final and the highlights of NRL .
Rugby is the best if all sport.
League is not even close
If Union coaches could actually coach, they wouldn’t need to continuously pinch league coaches.
Theres no issue at all with either game adapting things from other game. Both sports are evolving and adapting to full time professionalism. ATM rugby league is obviously a superior spectacle but I assume that will swing abit in years to come
Nrl thinks they are under attack when they have been taking many union boys at a young age. All the best talent from union in Australia goes to league.
Most of Rugby League's influences came from Union and Aussie Rules. Melbourne Storm utilized their Victorian connections and trained their halves to do cross kicks to the finishers.
The Union game isn't dying but you could certainly say it's not the same game it was, and the rule changes over the past 30-years have helped to push Union towards League style rugby.
So, if anything, Union transitioned itself into something league-like. We don't even enforce a straight feed in scrums anymore.
As someone who was brought up on league i do enjoy the technical aspect of rugby union. But the problem for me as a fairweather fan is its also its achilles heel. I enjoy the off the cuff nature of league, being able to run from deep in open field, something that is almost penalised in union if you get tackled away from your team mates. The obvious exceptions to this are Fiji, who play a very rugby league throw the ball about style very evident in the world cup. And as with the first 40 minutes of the France/South Africa game, the fast flowing open style made for one of the best halves of rugby i've ever seen.
But as with cricket, i would say the trend in sport is away from those technical heavy games to sports with niche markets to the wow factor like t20 cricket and the NRL.
Defensive lines have ruined rugby union. That came about from law changes regarding rucking, unfortunately. The ball really isn't contested anymore at the tackle. There are few "counter rucks." Then there's mauls, which have really changed since obstruction in them was legalized. Also, I never understood why the law changes regarding 5 meter scrums and lineouts. Then there's lifting in lineouts, which meant contesting dropped considerably. Finally, what was wrong with retreating back into the 22 to kick the ball out?
I'm 45 and am in favour of miss passes going in front of players rather than behind.
As a northampton fan the addition of Lee Radford from Rugby League has been immensely enjoyable.