Contact Patch: Motorcycle Tire Temp = Tire Pressure
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 17 ต.ค. 2024
- www.DaveMossTuning.com
The correct temperature of your motorcycle tires will provide you with the best grip and the best wear. Consequently you'll get the most life out of them as well. Tire pressure determines tire temperature at speed. What's yours?
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this guy is amazing in person! highly recommended!!
Wow just wow the thought and science that goes into the tires is incredible
Which is why we are so blessed with tires today BUT, we need to understand how to get the most grip and longevity out of them and that takes a bit of work.
Dave Moss is cool 😎. Dave Moss can help you.
He allows me to ask the question about air pressure and suspension and importantly to read the tires too.
Al
thanks for the vid man happy there was no charge :)
Dave thank for the videos I tracked my tire wear and they got hot at 22.5 in the rear and 25.5 in the front bike was flying down the turns!!!!
I am curious about a few things with irregular tyre wear.
1. Is it only the heat that determines tyre wear or is it the hardness of the tyre or both?
e.g If heat wasn't an issue would high preasure or low preasure cause irregular tyre wear?
I would have thought that the higher preasure would keep the tyres shape better and therefore the wear would be more even but lower preasure would increase the contact patch giving better grip but increased wear from the tyre changing shape.
2. If you had the means of measureing the temperature of the tyres what would be the optimal temperature or temperature range?
3. I don't know if this is true but from my past experience on road bikes I have found that a tyre that has many sipes across the tyre, therefore has many small blocks of rubber with a pattern like a brick wall, is more prone to irregular wear than a tyre that has few sipes.
I have read from tyre manufacturers and road authorities that hard cornering and braking will cause cupping and that it is impossible to eliminate cupping on a motorcycle so you should keep the speed down.
In my younger days when braking hard in through a turn then instantly on the throttle to exit while scrapping everything on the bike didn't bother me, I was getting nice even tyre wear all round the tyre, with the exception of heavy smooth wear on the outer edges. I tended to wear out the sides of the tyres before the center was worn out.
I don't ride like that now that I'm 30 plus years older, well at least not as much. I like to know that I can still do it although I now tend to coast in the middle of the corner where i didn't before. I can't get rid of the cupping, could this be due to coasting?.
So is it true that you can never get rid of cupping unless you keep your speed and hard braking to a minimum or is that just propaganda to keep your speed down?
The part often missed is that the leading edge hits the ground and as there is a gap behind it (sipe), if collapses to create cupping. 1. Heat manipulates the compound and carcass to "soften" it, but the carcass decrees how much movement/flex there will be. 2. Street 140-170F for range. 3. The size of the sipe in length and width of gap will determine how much the leading edge folds irrespective of speed. Most hypersport tyres are no slick edges with sipes in the middle 20-40%. With geometry, suspension and air pressure tuning and if needed revalving, cupping can be almost be eradicated.
My first bike was a 2002 Honda Superhawk vtr1000 and i put Bridgestone Battlax BT023's on it which weren't confidence inspiring, although I wasn't very confident at all being new, esp in turns and corners anyway. Sometimes I could feel the rear wheel slip in turns. Eventually bike was stolen. FF about 4 years later and I got a 2007 cbr1000rr such had a relatively new set of Michelin Pilot Per Power 2 on it which felt sticky and was confidence inspiring, although I don't know if it were my experience getting better, the tires actually being much better, or it being a better bike. To the question, the PP2's are relatively old being from 2010ish, yet they're still made and sold, or sold anyway. Are they still exactly the same or do they update the compounds with the new stuff? And if i liked them so much (and they still get great reviews) does it still made sense to get them, or should i look into a different set? Bc as it's said, they're yesterday's technology. And i was thinking going to the PP2CT's this time.
Dave, think I asked this in the FB page, but... Is there a universal temp range or is the range specific to each tire / manufacturer? Also, would it make sense to just put a thermometer on the tire just after exiting the track as a poor man's way to measure temp?
+Curt Schacker The temp range is normally 180F to 200F. The new Michelin Ultimate slick needs over 200F. That's why tire warmers go to 180F. The poor man's way to check temps? Put your hand on the tires in the hot pit after 4 or 5 laps. If the tire begins to burn you hand at 1 second, you are good. Next most cost effective way is via an infra red temp sensor for surface temps.
Would like to see video or explanation about what to do with track riding later in the year when the temperature has dropped, or just riding in general. What if it's 40 F in the morning and 60 F peak in the afternoon? Are stock tires better in the colder conditions? Are they chosen to be all around all-season tires? Is it better to avoid track riding all together if the temperature drop below a certain number? Thanks.
In Winter where those temperatures are seen, road tires are better as they heat up quicker. You won't be going as fast due to shivering so there's a lot less risk. Finding the right race compound and then getting the right hot temperatures that time of year is a real headache.
dave would you say that most tires should have the same type of balling or ware ? and if so basically if I have it flaking off you are suggesting to drop tire pressure correct ?
Depending on the track surface aggregate mix you may or may not see any balling. Look around to see what is generally true around you for a general truth. Then if the tires are generally balling up (that sounds so bad....) you should see a similar pattern in regards to the ball sizes being 2-3mm in diameter. You would go down in pressure first and if nothing changed, go up as well.
ok thank you so much dave !! really love the videos you have on here ... extremely helpful and in much detail !
I'm new to understanding tyres and this information has been great! However after taking my bike into the hills, both the front and back tyres have a band of about 1 cm on the outside of very many and very small pitted holes. Is this too related to the fact the tire is not getting to temp?
You should be gaining 3-4psi on the street with a good ride through the twisties. If that pressure gain is correct, the pitting might be suspension too stiff.
Many thanks for responding Dave! So are you saying that I could or should lower the PSI from factory recommendations (36R-33F) 3-4 psi less, as this is due to the heating of the air within increasing the PSI?
And you're right, my newly inserted ohlins suspension is really hard. I've been trying to back it off in increments to try to resolve the ride quality, as I thought this may of been the case. It was giving me a headache due to my head hitting the top of my helmet on the open road as I felt every bump! These Aussie roads are terrible. Thanks again.
You should find and define your own pressure for you, your bike and your roads. Suspension is no different :) Define it as best you can and if you cannot, do what it takes to get it right.
Glossy with black dots suggests tire is not getting to temperature. However, I have also seen in these videos that oil can leak out of the tire during a hot tear and form a glossy film on the tire. How do you tell the difference?
the black dots are on the outer edges of the tire and cold tears are in the drive portion of the tire. Those are unique areas.
What Temperature were the Pirelli Diablo Supercorsa SP's on the Panigale set to cold?
Hi Dave. You know how we spray tire guard on car tires to protect the side walls from harmful sunlight UV rays, especially during hot summers? What's your opinion when it comes to spraying the same stuff on bike tires? Any insights?
I did this when I was young but have not done it for decades after having a rear tire slip out on me. I do not know enough about current products to know how they react to heat and if they will create loss of traction if the substance gets onto the tire surface? As with any product, careful thought prior to use should yield good results and maintaining tires with UV protection makes great sense.
Dave Moss Tuning
Thanks for the insight mate.
Tire slip out was my main concern really, and it looks like my worries are confirmed, for it did happen to someone else! I used to spray the product on a brush first and then "paint" the side walls, because spraying directly means some of the chemical/foam will definitely land on the contact surface. Secondly I noticed after spraying the tires walls and then riding, that the stuff gets flung from the tires onto the body (fairings and tank in my case) which certainly pisses me off!
I would make sure the tire was hot, use a cloth so there was minimal transfer and wait 12 hours or more before I rode the bike again. Cleaning all that off fairings is a real pain.
hi dave moss tuning
firstly I ride a bandit 1250sa with Michelin pilot road 4s , I use 36 front and 42 rear ...is this a good pressure for grip for medium to fast road riding and some times aggressive riding or would you drop it a little ?
also on a warm morning even before riding some times the pressure might be up a little , let's say 37 ish front and 43 ish rear , would you leave the pressures at this or drop them to the 36/42 ? or what ever pressure you recommend for grip..
thanks dave
Hi Kenny. The sun/ambient temps will warm the tires naturally so you may see a gain of 2-4psi depending on the time the tires have been in the sun and the ambient temps when you check the tire pressure. This is effectively the same as riding the bike but the sun is doing it for you :). Tire pressures should be defined by you for your bike, your roads and pace and you riding style. I start at 46 rear 44 front cold and then work down in 2psi increments to find what I like based on the carcass (soft or hard) and profile (sport or touring). I will go as low as 34 rear and 32 front cold. The lower you go the quicker the tires wear out so budget has to be a factor at some point.
Dave Moss Tuning
thanks for the swift reply , I am happy to sacrifice budget for a better feel at the front , bandit is a great bike but I always feel the front is a little vague ,I'm not sure if it's the bike or the feeling that the pr4s give , which I why I was wondering if a lower pressure would give a more secure feel , obviously the best way is for me to go out and try it , but the general thing that I find on the Internet is lower for grip and higher for longevity ,
so I'm guessing you would run higher pressures in a softer carcass to help it keep its shape/contact patch , is that correct ? if you have any knowledge of the pilot road 4s would you consider them to be a stiffer carcass ?
I did a huge write up on fork oil as I have a 1250S to that forum and suggested 10w oil as a compromise if you are running stock internals. I do run higher pressures on softer carcasses to retain carcass shape under load so I have more accurate steering. The PR4 is softer hence the slightly higher pressures. Have fun testing :)
Dave Moss Tuning
thanks again , nothing beats a little testing when the sun's out 👍
Ideally what are optimal tire temps while riding? And how do you feel about the tire pressure monitor systems that fit on the valve stems?
Any tool can be used when calibrated. Test temp monitors with actual surface and 4mm deep carcass temps for the correction factor.
Track 165-190F, road 150-175F
Iis there a way to find out what the ideal temp is for best tire performance and traction? Like a manufacturers recommendation or spces for ideal tire temp for maximum traction??
Tire warmers that are single temp go to 90C/180F. For race tires, that is the ideal temp. For street tires 150-170F is ideal. Maximum traction is via chassis and suspension settings not temperature.
@@catalystreactionsbw so I dont need to be worried about 'low siding' or my tires [front especially] sliding out from under me?
@@justaguy4real We always have to take care of low siding from cold tires and suspension travel. We constantly progress so settings and pressures have to change.
1:20 what is ideal tire temp? Too hot to hold and keep hand on it?
Tyre warmer gets to 90C or 180F. That is ideal. So, too hot for your hand.
Dave im in some need of help with my Honda CBR 250R 2012...When cornering the tires feel verrrry slippery..What should i do/check??
Check born on date of the tires. Check the tires are still round edge to edge. Check fork and shock travel used/sag numbers. Next check pressure gain of 3-4psi over your cold starting pressures - are you gaining pressure at all?
@@catalystreactionsbw tires are not round, stands a bit out closer to the edge..A little more worn in the centre..No pressure gain cold compared to when I take a ride
@@catalystreactionsbw what is the minimum psi that I can tske on my rear tire?Bike weighs 170 wet weight and myself 70..Which adds up to 240kg's..Rear suspension does feel verry stiff but is on lowest setting..Maybe the spring is to hard?It goes down about 11mm when i sit up against the tank
@@djnardo8919 Look at fork and shock travel and see how much you are using. That removes guessing. Minimum psi is generally 30/30 for most hypersport tires.
GREAT VIDEO!!! THX FOR THE UPLOAD!
Ciao Dave, how to set the right pression after reading the temperature? If the tire is too cold we need to increase o decrease the pressure or viceversa?
you try increase first, then decrease second and the tire design needs one or the other.
Question! I tried the new michelin power slick evo and the front of my R1 was floating every time i open the gas. Before those tires i use the bridgestone V02 and i was able to run 3 sec better on every lap. How to fix this bike behavior? The bridgestone was 200/655 R17, the mihelin are 200/55 R17. Do I need to rise the back of the bike or to lowering the front?
You didn't take into acount the different circumference of the tires so the pitch of your bike changed dramatically, hence the change in handling and slower lap times. Seems like you need to change fork and shock geometry.
Ok, so i need to verify and change the SAG and so the preload of the fork and shock?
How in % the circumference influence the pitch, there is some sort of estimation to use every time we change tires?
a 10mm change in circumference changes pitch by 5% on wright balance.
So they would come off the warmers if you had used them...at 180 degrees give or take and would proceed to lose almost 100 degrees front and rear. I guess you'd only need the low setting than correct? Or just spin the tires every now and then and just let the sun get them to within 10-15 degrees of the temp you're showing in the video. This should only take a lap. See you later Dave...go info and such a cool gadget for the guy that feels he needs it. Keep up the good work...we appreciate it. One more thing...it looks like it's reading the center temp...I'd be more concerned about the tire edge...yes? Can't you just rig up an extension and move it to the left or right to read the sidewall? Later
If the bike is in the sun the tyres do nee to be rotated especially if the paddock ground temp is 150F. Agreed that is a device gives you knowledge and understanding, by all means use it in a wider variety of sitautions to get more data points just as I did with Driven's Mantis.
what if the tire is too hot ?
If the tire is too hot, a soft carcass needs less pressure, a hard carcass more.
great info
so if you come back from the track and your tires are cold you have to drop 1 psi? can someone tell me the pressure used to Daytona compound?
Dunlop as 21 cold and 23 hot off the warmers after 50 minutes at 90C. Then, depending on your pace, track temps, ambient conditions and tire core temps you modify pressure accordingly
isnt it too low pressure? I thought a minimun of 28 hot was ok.
you could tell he wasn't getting heat in those tires by the chicken strips alone!
Ummmm no. At 46 seconds of the video you can clearly see he is less than a quarter inch from the edge of the tire. And lean angle doesn't equate equally to radius of the turn as it does from speed taken in the turn as far as lateral stress on the tire which raises the tire temp.
I guess the perfect temperature is based on when the rubber forms sticky balls
Prefect temperature is as per tyre warmers 180F/90C when on track and that depends on ability, lap times, track temperature and cold pressures.
@@catalystreactionsbw wouldn't the perfect temperature be based on the specific composition of the tire and how much friction it experiences on the road?
He Never Gives you a Strait Answer. It’s Always Subcribe & Go Here for More. Then you go to the website. & it’s the same damn short half cut Video.. WTF.., I’m over it..
Have you looked at the Free video playlist? Seems you want everything to be free so go there as there is a huge selection of topics to choose from with videos as long as 40 minutes. A little searching can yield you what you need - then once you have what you need you will be over it again for a while.
@@catalystreactionsbw Yes!!! I’ve Watched Every 2-3min Cut up Video That you’ve Made.. They Never Tell you a Direct Answer.. Right before he does something that I need to know. It’s Always Go here for more… if you wanna Teach something I’m willing to learn… But this is TH-cam Man.. U wanna make money start an TV Show.. But don’t make all of us. Go to this stupid website for the same damn Short cut up video.. it’s so stupid.. I have all the respect for Dave.. but the Editor Sucks Ass.. just Trying to Tune my suspension on my O5 zx10r… Yall make it so hard. Just make a full video. Quit taking all the important stuff out don’t y’all make enough tuning daily… guess not…
@@jessefpv9217 All; the videos of me talking in front of the trailer do. Most of the 2 clicks out videos do. Most of the ergonomics give you good information. The playlist of full free videos do. So there's plenty for you to leverage.
What Temperature were the Pirelli Diablo Supercorsa SP's on the Panigale set to cold?
+peter3746gixxer we don't measure tire temps when cold. We start with a given pressure, ride the bike for several laps and then adjust pressure based on carcass temps. Unfortunately, there is no linear relationship between cold and hot carcass temps due to all the variables:- bike, power, track surface, changing track temps, rider skill level, traffic etc.