I’m a fairly progressive Protestant Christian trying to get more understanding of LDS thought, and this has been a marvelous conversation to listen to. Very thought provoking and I love that in the end of it all of it comes down to love.
Ultimately, it comes down to comprehending the famous quote of CS Lewis, that we are all gods, and that we need to recognize all others as gods starting with our godly parents, real biological godly parents.
Baxter Kruger and Brad Jsrsak, non-LDS scholars, taught similar ideas at the Forgotten Gospel conference in 2016. These revelations are being planted in many that have the mind of Christ as the whole of reality comer closer to the fullness that is.
I wrote my last post around 25 minutes in to the video then went back and resumed the discussion. I was pleased to see that my idea, even though not exactly consistent with what was being presented, wasn't far off. Sometimes I think I know nothing and that I am unworthy. Other times I feel blessed and endowed. Long may it last.
Joseph Smith taught that the wedding ring represents the eternal nature of marriage. A solid band has no apparent beginning or end. A marriage has a temporal beginning but becomes eternal with no beginning or end. That’s my take on it anyway.
Thanks Jacob, for this insightful and very important conversation about the eternality of Heavenly Father. It should also be noted that the Hebrew word used for eternity in the old testament is "olam", and it doesn't seem to mean a never-ending, eternal period of time when denoting past time, specifically. It simply implies a remote point in the distant past, or antiquity, or a certain point beyond that. Whenever we read the word "eternity" or "eternal" in the scriptures, we tend to think of it in the sense of never-ending perpetuity or continuity. But the Hebrews did not necessarily think of it that way in terms of the past.
I would take somewhat of a hybrid stance based on the quote “God himself, finding he was in the midst of spirits and glory, because he was more intelligent, saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have a privilege to advance like himself.” So in the pre-pre-existence at the very beginning, we were all among an infinite number of primordial spirits/intelligences. And because there are an infinite number, we are all unique, one of an infinite number of slight variations and permutations in personality/temperament/traits, etc. God was the one spirit of the infinite whose permutation was in a perfect configuration. So everyone else was slightly suboptimal in some way. So because we existed in this primordial chaos, there was no boundaries or limitations, no way to distinguish between the self and the other, so it was impossible to become self aware and realize that fundamental cogito ergo sum (I think therefore I am) and begin organizing an order out of the chaos. Except for God. Being perfect, he was able to take that first step and begin his eternal progression. So at that point, even if God was less progessed than even the youngest spirit child of God is now, he was still infinitely more progressed than the rest of us were then, so he was still Godly compared to us, and therefore was God for eternity backwards. God then progresses to a perfect knowledge and godhood, the order of events is unclear, but we know he incarnated into a mortal body like Jesus before upgrading to a perfect body of flesh and bone. He married heavenly mother, Jesus is his first born in his new organized kingdom, and he enters into a godhead relationship with the Son and the Spirit. And we arrive at the point of the divine council and Lucifer’s rebellion. So God takes us out of the primordial chaos and places us in an organized place with boundaries where we are able to define a stable identity, symbolized by how he endows us with a new name and organizes our spirits into the image of God instead of the primordial undefined shape we had before. This is how we become spirit children of God. Instituting laws allowing us to progress as he progressed, as we were unable to discern the laws of nature on our own.
That is wonderful b.s. ! Who Crucified H F to have him go from an incarnation to a Glorified body like Jesus. How did HM become a god or is she only a demigod wife of HF that U don't worship!
@@davidjanbaz7728 You know David, the whole point of speculation is to try and provide explanation for things you don’t know about. In much the same way, going by your standard, Nicene speculation on the trinity is also B.S.
And I would consider that this Adam God - the first exalted intelligence - did not need a mortal existence as we suffer thru (this condition that we are currently in is a plan that allows us an easier path to a desired outcome - like having a car as opposed to having to walk everywhere.). But the only way to "save" the other intelligences was to sacrifice himself in order to provide a beacon, a light, a way to progress from primordial intelligences to a fulness of joy. This Adam God fell, that we might be; and we exist in order to obtain a fulness of joy. He gave up His position, and status, and exalted existence in order to rejoin his brethren in the primordial condition. He had the faith to die for his brethren, believing that the process which created his exalted condition could be replicated - in Himself. He had faith that being obedient to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel (the Eternal nature of it) would allow him to enter again into the Joy and Peace which he had obtained - to be resurrected. Is there an Adam God? I would say that it makes the most sense to me in the scope of all this. Can I be wrong about it? I am pretty confident that I am incorrect in some aspects of it of course.
Wonderful discussion! There are some things I don’t agree with like “eternal progression between kingdoms” for example and I also feel there are things not necessary to know for salvation. Overall I love conversations like these and can’t wait to see what it’s like in the eternities.
Interesting to think about and discuss, but this subject is not yet fully revealed. I still hold to the infinite regress view. I must say though, I certainly look forward to the day promised to the faithful as "A time to come in the which nothing shall be withheld, whether there be one God or many gods, they shall be manifest" (D&C 121:28).
I remember Truman G. Madsen quoting from some bit of something Joseph said, were it was stated that Christ beheld in vision the Father himself going through an atoning suffering, in preparation for his own in the Garden of Gethsemane. It implied, that while we are all divine beings, capable of inheriting the Celestial Kingdom, only the (for lack of a better term) royal bloodline held the position of "Most High God", and were the Saviours of their respective generations. The rest of us being children begotten UNTO God, but only Christ was a begotten son OF God. I think there is a talk from Oliver Cowdery in one of the Journal of Discourses volumes where he was about to expound that precise subject, but due to time did not. Personally, on the "eternity problem" I have often thought that time, like space, is multi-dimensional. God does experience the flow of time, but it is orthogonal (not parallel) to our own experience, and from his vantage point he can see the entirety of the time we experience, and intervene at particular locations throughout it. Furthermore, in the field of math, known as set theory, we know that there are "orders of infinity", that certain infinities are actually provably smaller than other infinities. This could show, quite well, that there may also be orders of this thing we call "eternity", wherein our mensuration of what constitutes "eternal" would be different, depending on what order of eternity we occupy.
I don't know if you're getting at what I think, but I think that each ”eternity" is its own thing and perhaps alpha and Omega refers to the beginning of this eternity. That is how I have come to think of it. That God did go through a similar process that we are going through, but at the same time can say he has been God forever, because his definitions of words are not ours. With a perfect God language, he can make more sense with his words than we can with our imperfect words and human interpretations. I think both ideas can be right at the same time.
It totally sounds like fractals or Mandelbrot sets. You zoom out or in for eternity and it's infinitely complex, yet repeating as in one eternal round.
Thinking about Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ and myself, I've always thought there should be a pattern regarding our relationship and eternal progression. In trying to imagine the things the God has prepared for those that love Him, I really let my imagination go at times. I have never shared this with anybody else for fear that I may be heretical. However, seeing you guys talk about the nature of God has given me the confidence to state a thought that I have had a long time now. Simply put, after this life, does Heavenly Father progress to another role, does Jesus Christ progress to be a Heavenly Father in a future creations and do those who qualify for the Celestial Kingdom progress to be Saviours in a particular creation? I know it sounds fanciful but I have only started to watch your podcasts this last few weeks and I have been surprised by the content of your video presentations and I enjoy them thoroughly.
Thank you for these thoughts and I hope and pray that someone with knowledge responds to your comment and question so that we may all receive enlightenment. It has been 8 days since your comment so I guess holding my breathe waiting for responses will result in me passing out and that will be the only answer that I will receive. Thanks again. By the way, I have asked similar questions and have felt the same way that you do. Asking about the mysteries is almost a forbidden thing with some members even though Heavenly Father specifically tells us to search the mysteries. My main question is to do with the Earth becoming the Celestial Kingdom and Heavenly Father coming to dwell here with us. My question is wondering why Father is leaving the place where He currently lives to come to this Celestial Kingdom.
@@MichaelJones-lh1ug I suppose we all get curious and want to know things that are not really necessary to know regarding our salvation. When we get to inherit all Heavenly Father has, we will know the answer to these type of questions. I suppose, however, I want to fully understand John 17:3
John recorded the concept very distinctly. John 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God. 19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
Great dialogue! I've also tried to unravel these ideas, that so perplex my very limited understanding, but I awoke one morning recently and an insight was there, that seemed to have just been inserted. I don't understand what it means yet, although it may refer to the idea of "intelligences" and how they manifested. Here it is: DNA exists not only physically, but spiritually. Divine DNA are god potential like biological DNA is human potential.
Well DNA itself is physical but what’s special about DNA is not it’s Physical substance but the abstract code that it contains. So depending on what you mean by spiritual. It’s certainly transcendent in that the information found in DNA is irreducible and beyond the limits of what physical laws and matter can produce.
35:49 I guess I don’t see the tension because the Church, both as an official institution and as a simple amalgamation of lay people can be described in the same way. Whenever people with institutional positions gather, someone will be the head person there. Whenever individuals gather-especially as families-someone will be the head there. Abraham 3:6-9 outlines the same kinda thing: that one fact will always exist “above” another fact. And you can definitely do that infinitely
Professor Falconer at the Y would ask questions about the meaning of the infinite and eternal Atonement of Jesus Christ like did it apply to the mortal sins of him who would become his eternal father and did Christ's ressurection facilitate the ressurection of him who we refer to now as God? Context is King...
Seems that Blake is promoting " the doctrine of the second chance". Denounced by Bruse R. McConkie as a heresy. Hayden asked many excellent questions, that weren't fully fleshed out. Wish they had been.
I understand where Blake is coming from about the unity of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. But another central tenet of our theology is that the creation or organization of spirits or the concept of "eternal increase" is dependent on a marriage relationship between man and woman. So in the concept of the Most High that Blake is espousing, where is the Mother? The absence of discussion about the Father's choices to love HER whenever the option was presented is what is leading to an uneasy sense for me here. And is she likewise a partner in having ALWAYS chosen the light whenever presented a choice? If not, where does her godhood originate? Because there's a large Heavenly Mother shaped hole in this discussion.
Joseph Smith never once taught about or mentioned the mother in heaven -- and what he did say is not consistent with the view of a mother in heaven who gives birth to spirits.
@@blakeostler8965 I don't know about the "giving birth to spirits" part, but I didn't mention that directly. You inferred it. But the implication that we "cannot have an increase" without entering into the marriage sealing implies some interdependence or cocreative role of men and women together that we cannot rule out, whatever that act is. How do you square the claim that Joseph never taught about her with his recorded private comments about her? In addition, how so you square that with the church's continued insistence on her role as Mother? The conversation here is that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost together are God, but the implication is that if the Mother is present as God in some form, she was "picked up" along the way rather than having a self-existent nature as the Father.
@@blakeostler8965 Jesus did not have the fullness of the Father in the pre-earth life. For the D&C tells us that he had to come to earth to go from grace to grace through the experiences of the Father until he obtained the fullness of the Father in the Resurrection. And only then he could become all that the Father is once he had received his Celestial Resurrected body to enter into his final state like unto the Father's to receive a fullness of Joy. For without having a Celestial glorified body if he only had just a spirit body then he could not obtain a fullness of Joy for the spirit and the body cannot experience a fulness of the Father unless they are both joined together in the Resurrection...Therefore Jesus went from Grace to Grace until he Obtained a Fullness from the Father. Because you cannot enter into a fullness of joy with the Father without having a glorified resurrected body of the same degree of light and glory that the Father has. So Jesus wasn't complete in the pre-earth life in his spirit body state even through he had glory with the Father and with the Holy Ghost.. He needed also a Resurrected body like unto the Father's in order to be complete. Reach full development. Having just a spirit body is not full development of God..
@@germanslice Actually Jesus had a fullness of glory and he emptied himself of that glory when he became mortal. He was fully divine because he presented himself as divine with the name YWHW. Both the Holy Ghost and Jesus were fully divine before becoming mortal and so your unfounded assumption that one has to be resurrected before receiving a fullness of divinity is demonstrated to be false. D&C 93 actually supports the view that Christ was divine with the Father before becoming mortal.
I disagree! I honestly don't think anyone in mortality gets it. Not even the prophets understand fully the truth. That is why President Nelson told us that the restoration of all things is continuing. I do believe we must be careful what we think is true or what someone else interprets in their studies. We as mortals can cause others to doubt their faith by presuming that we understand because of our education or I.Q. Joseph Smith had questions that weighed heavy on his mind. He did not seek out the most brilliant minds on religion in his day. He turned to God's word and followed it by going to the grove to pray.
I don't agree that we will continue to grow for all eternity on a personal development context. Neal A. Maxwell has stated some things on this concept. "All These Things Shall Give Thee Experience" - Yet, "he grew in wisdom and in stature" during a mortality. Yet Neal A. Maxwell, "In a very real way, all we really need to know is that God knows all." - There's nothing amid a personal development context that God 'grows' or 'learns'. Neal A. Maxwell is clear about this in other statements as well.
I kind of think of it more as growing in glory, not understanding. When you are a parent, you learn so many things, it's like being born again. I assume that when you become a grandparent and have a role as a counselor, but not directly in charge, things change and you gain more insight and joy watching your own children become parents. When/if we become exalted, Our Heavenly Father will grow in glory and joy. Perhaps we aren't the first group of children even.
I’d love to hear from Blake his analysis of the theology of the Holy Ghost. I heard him once say on his podcast he thought it was unified mind of the Father and Son.(LoF) What would be his take on the Holy Ghost being a anthropomorphic entity that will someday receive a mortal body?
At 50:32 in the video, Blake says 'We're all sons of God except . . .' I could not hear/understand what he said at that point. Did someone catch that and could you enlighten me? Thank-you.
1:00:35 - It's an interesting idea, which I've heard my father cite without source. The closest thing I've found in scripture to support this idea is in 2 Ne. 10:3, "there is none other nation on earth that would crucify their God." From there we kind of extrapolate an analogy: Nephites are to the Jews as extraterrestrials are to earthlings, and from this conclude that "there is none other nation on [none other] earth that would crucify their God." And it kind of makes sense that this Earth, home of some of the best and brightest, as well as many of the worst of souls, is the ghetto of the universe. This earth has played host to Jesus Christ, Joseph Smith, George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Newton, Beethoven, the brother of Jared ... and Cain, Nimrod, Akish, Gadianton, Marx, Hitler, Stalin... It's a world of contrasts, which I don't suppose is replicated to quite this extreme on other worlds.
Jesus is not half human and half divine. Rather is Theanthropos, the God man. The Lord Jesus Christ is one eternally divine Person who will forever possess two distinct yet inseparable natures: one divine and one human. Fully God and fully man.
Interesting discussion, entertaining and informative, though I feel it’s unnecessary. Much of these thoughts, principles or truths will be clearly revealed in the eternal hereafter. The doctrines of Christ and salvation are immense enough to occupy any and all time that we have. And likely more essential and beneficial to our individual and eternal progression back to our Heavenly Father. Likely my comment isn’t worth much, but I’m grateful to know that in His wisdom and time the mysteries of God will be revealed to us clearly. Thank you.
Just some thoughts ... be they as they may. Spose you desire to be an arTEESt and you create a drawing but you keep getting frustrated that the drawing is not turning out the way that it is supposed to look - so you destroy it and start another attempt. Each attempt proves just as futile as the last and you end up with a studio littered with the death and destruction of failure after failure. When you are finally satisfied with the drawing you have finished the your work and you finally have a clear and faithful representation of what you were trying to draw. When you "tuna" piano, how do you know when youve got it in tune? When you order a pizza, how do you know if what is delivered is correct? Whendle yous writicate a sentencical form, atle whichery momentary doesle itta makery cents? This is prolly akin to Platos forms. The ideal form of a thing exists, and we have been exposed to this ideal form; otherwise, how would we know how to distinguish what a thing is, against what a thing is not? The concept of God is an ideal condition that exists apart from any tangible bodily construction. It is the pinnacle of eternity. But the concept itself has no body, no parts, and no passion. The concept is the standard against which we can know when a thing is something other than God. When I receive a tangible pizza, I can know without a doubt if it is what I ordered; or if its a false representation of what a pizza is. If it has pineapples, then I have been deceived. The priesthood organization is a fair model. Deacon, teacher, and priest are not limitations of the priesthood; they are a progression of the priesthood. A teacher is not absolved of the duties of a deacon; and a priest is not absolved of the duties of a teacher. What does a deacon do? Only what he has seen a teacher do. What does a teacher do? Only what he has seen a priest do. If a deacon fails to do his responsibilities then his progression stops. If a deacon attempts to define his own duties and responsibilities - his progression within the priesthood stops. What does a son do? Only what he has seen his father do. Can he progress by any other way? God forbid! What did Adam do? Only what he had seen his father do. Could he progress any further upon any other foundation? Of course not. For there is only one way, one truth, one manner in which we can move from one condition to another. I would consider that the Hayden model-A is the more accurate description but that it lacks some details. I dont think having time as a separate experience from the Godhead is accurate - unless it is meant to convey our mortal/fallen perception of time. Above the line of time, I would label the concept of God (the Spirit of God; the essense of Godliness; the Priesthood of God). And the personages within it comprise the orders of the Godhood - or the Godhead. The unorganized matter/intelligence does not stand as a separate condition apart from the Godhood; but is rather a delineation of the progression thru the "priesthood". The (inf ...) which represents an infinite regression I would consider to be inaccurate; or rather, it has not been fully revealed as to what is beyond that moment. It is very possible that there is a mechanic involved that is not fully transparent to our experiences in this mortal condition - 2Cor 12:4. And when I stand before God and He inevitably informs me that my thoughts and ideas on the matter are faulty and foolish; then I am humble enough to have Him correct me on the matter. If it is His will that I suffer in hell for the rest of my existence for my conceptions ... then I will do so gladly - no weeping or wailing or gnashing of my teeth in opposition to His will.
God's time is higher and not an arrow pointing to the right. We learn in scripture that all things are before Him. I believe that when the Book of Mormon teaches that Jesus Christ condescended, it means that He left His time to come to our lower time. He left His fulness of divinity by being born to a mortal woman, but had the promise that He was still one with the Father, meaning that as He received grace for grace throughout His life, He simply was discovering His eternal Godhood (which He always has been). His miracles, including having control of the waves of the sea, was evidence of this.
I recently had this thought come into my mind; Only the sacrifice of a God (Jesus Christ) could permit us back into the presence of a God (Heavenly Father)
I know we speak of the “final judgement”, but do we actually believe that it is final? I know D&C 19 hints at it not being final, but then what if it’s not final?
I'm not sure I fully understand your question but I'm gonna take a shot at it anyway. I think the "final judgement" is final... and not. When I was exxed from the church, the judgement in my membership was final and cut off. That was the judgement for my actions. After being rebaptized, it's a of I'm starting fresh, as a new soul - and really, I feel that. While there was a final judgement for who I was, there is a renewed effort for me to try again. Now, idk what that looks like if a macro, eternal scale, but I think everything we experience in this life is a micro, temporal mirror of it.
In the bible we are taught how to pray to our father which art in heaven and close our prayer in the name of his son jesus christ because our salvation is through the atonement of jesus christ many places in the bible jesus prays to his father in heaven in the garden on the Cross when he was baptised the holy spirit came down and decended apon him this truth is revealed to those who sincerely seek the truth those that don't the scriptures say will have a stupid of thaught and how stupid it is to believe that our heavenly father jesus christ and the holy spirit are all the one person they each played a seperate part as a team to bring to pass the eternal life of man
Your comment at the 22 minute mark will live in infamy. Blake was asked, “About Core Doctrine and LDS Theology?” Blake answers, Quote, “I don’t believe either exist.” All three of you then laugh. We wave had 200 plus years of LDS living prophets and apostles and you three admit dispite all your public presentations and defense of the church that in reality there is no well defined theology or core doctrine in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints? So Blake, the BOM states it is the most correct book on earth and a man will grow closer to god by abiding by its precepts than any other book. But, you admit we don’t know who god is? So you write another book to explain what prophets and apostles haven’t been able to do for over 200 years. Three TBM’s still trying to figure out who god really is while the “average” member only thinks they do. This is crazy coming from 3 Mormons.
God is both -Eternally the Most High God forever, and a Perfect Man that grew from a mortal being to a divine, perfect, eternal being. I would present that, via the Eternal Holy Spirit, (which is spirit matter and intelligence that exists throughout all space and connects to everything) all Divine Beings become one in Spirit, Light and Truth and that is the Most High God. Any individual united to that Spirit completely is that "Most High God" even though each individual is physically separate.
From Dr Heiser’s website( see below) . It is completely disingenuous to use his work to support Mormonism , When he is on record saying he disagrees with the LDS position “ No, I’m not a Mormon (as my academic Mormon friends will tell you). This post links to an article I had published in a Mormon journal explaining why I think the Mormon understanding of Psalm 82 is wrong (really - how refreshingly open-minded). Still, some people out there like to (literally) lie about me (i.e., they know about that paper and omit it in their online material about me when expressing disagreement with my take on Psalm 82).“
I am struggling with Blake's the idea that the Godhead was more loving and that we could have chosen the same but did not (yet) for whatever reason. Lehi teaches that existence, agency, and sense and sensibility (power to know all things--which is the source of pure love) is a function of the Atonement of Jesus Christ. The fall and mortality is the father of the Atonement... and the Father was once mortal too. All this seems to add up to there being no way the Godhead could arrive at perfect love in any other way than the same as the rest of us do???
I would love to hear more thoughts on the Holy Ghost since in Hebrew and Aramaic it is feminine, translated to Greek as neutral and then translated to Latin as masculine. So is the Holy Ghost possibly Heavenly Mother. I’d say yes because that trinity would really make sense. But I’m the BofM the Holy Ghost is revealed as a Man.
While the revealed truths about what or who the Holy Ghost is, amounts to a smidgen more above any truths about a Heavenly Mother(s) ... I would be satisfied in accepting that the Holy Ghost is a personage that has experience with both a celestial order of things and an earthly order of things. If the records are accurate, then in one Journal of Discourse, Brigham Young gave names to the members of the Godhead - Elohim, Jehovah, and Michael. And unless Michael is a common name among the sons of God ... that would point to Adam.
@@anthonym2499 That is the suggestion, but numerous prophets have denounced such concepts. It saddens me that Brigham is no longer here to be adequately questioned regarding his opinions and whether it was simple speculation / conviction that he held.
@@randomnerd9088 ... my luck, he would just slit my throat from ear to ear with a bowie knife :/ But yes, i agree with you on that. The concept in my mind is beautiful - a father testifying to his son and revealing the truth of all things. Just as in Gen4, where the LORD is having a conversation with Cain. I read that as Adam and Cain having that conversation; yet it stands at odds with the written account because the word for LORD is YHVH, or Jehovah. I attempt to reconcile it as a linguistic device where the Spirit of Jehovah is motivating Adam within the discussion - so whether it is the actual personage of Adam or not tends to be moot to me. Just as it doesnt matter if the Church is being led today by the words of President Nelson instead of the words of Brigham Young - both men are fulfilling the role that is required of them for governing of the Church. I am more familiar with President Kimball tho - but then thats just my age showing :) I found the story that has been floating about in my mind; its from JoD 2; "GATHERING AND SANCTIFICATION OF THE PEOPLE OF GOD", GEORGE A. SMITH. Sorry, it was all caps when i copied it. "We thus passed on from the year 1837 until the year 1843, when the Lord concluded that the people who had been gathered, since the scattering from Missouri, had been made acquainted with the principles of His kingdom so long, that they must have become strong enough for Him to reveal one sentiment more. Whereupon, the Prophet goes up on the stand, and, after preaching about everything else he could think of in the world, at last hints at the idea of the law of redemption, makes a bare hint at the law of sealing, and it produced such a tremendous excitement that, as soon as he had got his dinner half eaten, he had to go back to the stand, and unpreach all that he had preached, and left the people to guess at the matter. [...], and said, “If I were to reveal the things that God has revealed to me, if I were to reveal to this people the doctrines that I know are for their exaltation, these men would spill my blood.” There are truths which are to remain unpreachable, and to reveal them as tho they were as evident as the light of day would send the whole lot of us to hell. We would reject them and curse God to our own damnation. So line upon line, and precept upon precept, we must go until we are prepared for a fulness thereof. My concern is getting thru the things we need to get thru in this life and saving the mysteries for whatever lies afterwards :)
The "chain" started as an infinitely small mobius loop and is expanding into an infinitely large one. God is growing, we are growing, reality is growing, etc. Creation is God and God is creation and all are in God and God is in all and all, all is one. The holiest prayer of Israel, the Shema, states this plainly to those who comprehend it.
Much of what Blake says I have independently come to on my own. However, as much as Blake has set forth a viewpoint on the eternal nature of God, I’m not sure he has tied it all in together. For example, there was no discussion about the eternal nature of the role of women and the concept of a mother in heaven. Blake essentially says there isn’t difference between spirit beings and intelligences. However, the fact that there are male and female spiritual beings would suggest an eternal nature of what women’s role is with respect to creating spirit children. I cannot believe in an eternity where the function of women doesn’t exist. There is so much more to say about that but the comment section isn’t the place to go into the level of detail needed to explore the concept. I have come to learn in life that God follows the laws of physics. This is heresy to many non-LDS Christians. Just as lift can overcome gravity resulting in the flying of an airplane, God knows how to use the various physical laws we learn about in science to override or counteract other physical laws. While this may appear to us to be a miracle, I do believe all miracles are applications of physical laws in ways we don’t not as yet understand. Just recently in terms of scientific thought, scientists are more and more concluding that the universe the earth is part of is a small part of the a larger group of universes known as the multiverse. At the time Joseph Smith published the Book of Abraham, the scientific beliefs of the day were a heliocentric model of the universe. It wasn’t until about 1920 that scientists abandoned that for a galactocentric model. That model was replaced by the Big Bang theory shortly thereafter. However a critical reading of the Book of Abraham from a scientific viewpoint would indicate that The Book of Abraham does not exclude the existence of a multiverse. This means that Joseph Smith was scientifically ahead of where science eventually got to a century later. If we think of eternity in terms of starting at the beginning, then eternity can easily be understood to encompass the time frame from the beginning of the universe the earth is part of. If there has been one Big Bang there have been innumerable Big Bangs creating other universes existing beyond the boundaries of our universe. These Big Bangs have likely been happening eons before the Big Bang which created our earth and will continue for eons after. The varieties of matter created in a Big Bang event could easily account for the type of matter that spiritual beings and or intelligences are made of. A council of Gods makes all the sense in the world when acknowledging the high likelihood of a multiverse. This concept also accounts for the concept of God not always being God through an eternity that expands beyond the time frames of the universe we exist in. Mose 1:39 says, “This is my work and my glory to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man”. Therefore when God loses one spirit child who failed to become like God he loses an infinite amount of glory. For each spirit child that becomes exalted, he gains an infinite amount of glory as those exalted beings each create an infinite number of spirit children who have the potential to become like God.
When you read the book of Abraham it talks about governing stars. It is clear grom astronomy that stars govern solar systems. The density of stars increase as you near the center of the galaxy. It is said that the center of the galaxy is placed a massive black hole. Is this not in essence a governing star of the galaxy? My theory is that our Hevenly father is God of this galaxy and in the beginning of the beginning that God's exalted brothers got together and created the universe each having his own to govern and people as was done before. I like this because it feels close, at home, rather than somewhere out there in a universe with no center and an ever expanding and excellerating edge. Take it for what it is worth, but it fee.s good to me...
Was Christ fully divine before his mortal life. Is the Holy Ghost fully divine now? Seems a fully divine being can have a body, but it is not a requirement of being fully divine.
@@bigboybrock1205 the book of Mormon indicates that Christ obtained a physical body "that his bowels may be filled with mercy, according to the flesh, that he may know according to the flesh how to succor his people according to their infirmities." Whether or not Christ was "divine" before, it's implied that he didn't automatically know how people actually felt in their bodies, and he had to experience it himself to grasp it. In my opinion, this is an excellent reason why we also need bodies. Everything we experience or feel gives us an opportunity to know how to empathize with others and, in this way, serve them and love them just as God would. While mortality is our own test, it seems applicable that part of that test is to connect with others around us; and actually feeling things with them helps us to know how to succor them.
@@DannyAGray D&C 93:33 and 138:17 both say we need a body in order to receive a fullness of Joy. Would it then be fair to say the Holy Ghost does not have a fullness of joy? Or is this only applicable to people who have sinned once before? I don’t think there is enough revelation to give an answer to these questions yet. Also to the people in the video: If Jesus emptied himself of some divine attributes, doesn’t that mean Jesus sinned in that view? Because I thought the only difference between a God and a sinner is sin?
I had thought that on your channel you were open to honest discussion which involved comparison of the various LDS views with those of mainstream Christianity. However, I see that you have deleted my comment which offered the mainstream view of Christ's kenosis in contrast to Blake's representation of it. Christ is understood to be eternal God, the Son, the Word, who did not give up his divine attributes when he became a man, but only veiled them, not exercising his divine privileges fully because he chose to be the suffering servant for our salvation As Christians have affirmed throughout history (St Athanasius is an early example), Christ the Word incarnate continued to keep ordering the universe even when he was a baby in the manger at Bethlehem. He was the union of two natures, God and Man in one Person. As man he grew in wisdom and stature, gaining human knowledge in the normal way, but also at times receiving knowledge and power which could only come from the Word/eternal Son operating through his human nature. If you are going to compare LDS and historic Christian teaching, you should represent the Christian teaching factually. I have, as I said, lost confidence in your sincerity in claiming to be "thoughtful" in any honest consideration of ideas.
The thing that you seem to overlook in this discussion is the fact that there is and was a "plan of salvation." Those who come to this world to experience mortality were in the preexistence sons and daughters of gods. We are given four choices, and those choices are to abide by telestial, terrestrial, and celestial laws which promise certain degrees of glory, or the fourth choice is to become a son of Perdition. Those who make it to the celestial kingdom will ultimately become gods as Christ and Heavenly Father, and the Holy Ghost are Gods. Our temple covenants only prepare us to become priests and priestess, kings and queens. Eventually we have to do what Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ did, which is to become the Creator of worlds of our own, to take on mortal bodies of flesh and bones, and to do what Jesus did----to become Saviors of mankind. What you did not discuss is where did spirit children come from? They came from those who made it into the celestial kingdom. Are we not promised to be able to procreate other children? So, if spirit children already exist, then how can we procreate spirit children? I believe we were merely intelligences before our godly parents procreated us in our pre-earth life (i.e., those who followed the Savior in their earth life and made it into the celestial kingdom like we will do if we are faithful and endure to the end). That is why Joseph Smith could declare, "As man is, God once was. And as God is, man will one day become." Heavenly Father obtained his Godhood by doing what Christ did, and the other gods who followed him and qualified themselves for the celestial kingdom in their time eventually became gods, worlds without end. Just as Jesus Christ will become our most high God to inherit a world of his own, those who follow him will reside in his kingdom learning to become gods, and eventually Creators and Saviors, and thus Heavenly Father will be elevated to a greater degree of glory, while we strive to elevate ourselves by obedience to his laws, ordinances, and commandments, for there is order and unity in God's kingdoms, again worlds without end. I do not believe that intelligences have the same degree of knowledge and understanding as spirits do, but yet the Book of Abraham informs us that "the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones. (Abraham 3:22). I suppose those intelligences could possibly be the spirit children who were procreated by celestial parents, but we know that "there were many noble and great ones." If there are worlds without end, then likewise there are Gods without end, and no doubt councils of Gods who control the universe, galaxies, and planets without end. I would add one more thought, and that is this: Those who make it into the celestial kingdom, well actually each of the three degrees of glory will be saved, but only those who make it into the celestial kingdom who accept Christ as their Lord and Savior will become his sons and daughters and become heirs of God and joint heirs with Jesus Christ. It may take us eons of time before we actually become gods and goddesses and know what Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ know, but when we do, we may need to do what they did, and that is to become Creators and Saviors of the worlds we create. In some ways, that is a very scary thought to contemplate.
All good except Christ is the firstborn of the Father and the only begotten. I belive that means first born as a spirit child and and only begotten of God as God, meaning the only physical child God will have, or has had as God. Therefore is it not logical that we would follow the same pattern, when we reach that exaltation?
I'm with Hayden, and I keep the King Follett, the grove and D&C 121 within this manifestation of "the eternal plan". God is a being with eternal existence but not always in the same state of being. This is the divine nature we posses also but in a different state from Him who we call , who Joseph called "the head god." He is the head of this manifestation of the plan and we as divine-in-nature (but not in fullness) were the gods there with Him. Even the scriptures be it Isaiah or psalms must be interpreted within the framework of THIS manifestation of the eternal plan. Isaiah 42 is an example to Israel. They relate to us and here. Let's not slip into the Hellenized-Trinitarian mindset of trying to define "that, than which nothing greater can be imagined." We know there is a greater context of framework but let's remember to keep things within the context relevant to this expression of "the plan." Find the distinction between "existence" and "state". "Spirit cannot be destroyed, neither is it created" K.F.D... One Eternal Round.. Endless is Eternal.
God cannot "know all things"... without "not knowing all things".... being included as a feature of His "knowing all things." "Not knowing all things" has to be included in "knowing all things"--or you do not "know" what "not knowing all things is"... and therefore do not "know all things." "As man is, God once was"... is axiomatic--whether we like it or not. We also have to stop trying to figure things out from and reconcile things to our "time" and "progress" point of view. God dwells in "one Eternal NOW"--where there is "time no longer." That changes everything. If all things... including "time" are Eternaly present NOW... then God, Christ, and all of us have both always been God(s)--which "Godhood" must included, for all of us, our mortal "time" of "not knowing all things" and our interaction with Christ's Infinite Atonement's gift of opposition, agency, existence, and perceived beginning, end, and progress--even though, from the point of view of Eternal NOW... there is no beginning, end, or progress (on time or linear progression)--there is only Christ--the Author and Finisher of the Infinite At-ONE-ment or Eternal Now... for all of us and all things--without Him was not anything made that was made. We perceive progress... but it is ONE Eternal NOW--not stacked... but rather utterly infused--everything equaling everything. Hierarchy is simple essential order... otherwise there is chaos. It is hard for us, because of our mortal point of view, to get our head wrapped around the idea that everything already exists-infinitum. But... it does... like a film file in and Adobe program into which we can dive in at any point and expand and contract and explore any part of all we want or is expedient. Now... take this film strip and take the end of it and attach it to the beginning and you have ONE Eternal Round. Eternity is not "linear time progress" oriented. One way to view "from Eternity to eternity" is... from Eternity (no time)--Time--to Eternity (no time). As for ONE GOD... yes, Father is the only God--but if we as joint-heirs with Christ inherit and become all that the Father is and receive all that the Father hath--then we are all ONE with God--if you have seen me you have seen the Father... so there is only ONE God (even though it consists of an infinite number of us--God). This may also be why it is defined as Elohim (plural)... name, title, office, quorum, of God--the Infinite At-ONE-ment of God. It is like the ocean (God/Elohim) which consists of an infinite number of drops of water (God)--each drop being the ocean (God/Elohim).
God being once a man (and our ability to follow the same path and become like Him) isn't just Hayden's view. It's the view of the latter-day prophets from Joseph Smith forward. It's at the very core of the restored gospel. That much is clear. Much of this conversation seems to ignore this fact, goes beyond revealed doctrine, and delves into fruitless speculation and pontificating that does little more than mix the Gospel with the philosophies of men. In other words, a weird amalgamation of apostate Christianity and the fullness of the Gospel and how God is viewed. Didn't think I would see that on this channel.
This is a "podcast" designed to make money... and based on that business model, having on "guests" and broadening the audience is key to that business model success... If the guests have "books they sell" it gives the potential guests a reason to come on to said podcasts because their books, by proxy, will also sell more and everyone makes more money... "labor for Zion, and not for gain" Someday we will all understand just how important that really was
@@Zion_Or_Bust I give Jacob, Blake, and Hayden the benefit of assuming they're here to have sincere discussions and not just sell books or make money. I just think they (at least Jacob and Blake) have wandered off into the mist on this issue.
I don’t believe you can become DAT without living multiple probations. A spirit doesn’t come to earth one time and then boom he’s God it’s impossible. You have to learn line up upon line precept upon precept. You have to have adversity and you’re not just born a perfect being.
God hasn't yet reviewed all the mysteries because he won't be mocked the only way it could happen is by personal revelation or through the prophets why would he put these mysteries out there for podcasts like Mormon stories to insult the father son and holy ghost are one in purpose they work together to bring about the eternal life of man we were created in the image of God we pray to our father in heaven through his son jesus christ when jesus christ arose and went back to heaven he said he would send the comforter the holy spirit to guide us heavenly father jesus christ and the holy spirit are 3 seperate beings a young joseph smith wouldnt make that up because of josephs vision satan is so angry about it that's why we are the most criticised church on the face of the earth but when you have a testimony of the trinity as 3 seperate beings you will find peace in your heart that passeth all understanding I pray to heavenly father and thank him for sending his son
The God that is infinite, eternal and unchangeable with all tri-omni power is the John 17 type UNION (the Elohim) that creates worlds without number. The finite members of that UNION are all beings like Jesus: eternal intelligences in eternal progression. The notion of a Being with a Body that exists from all eternity cannot be correct.
Wasn't it explained that that being obtained a body and experienced mortality prior to Jesus' experience with mortality. Not that fleshly body exists eternally.
hmm, that last sentence is an interesting challenge. Meaning God would have not had a body at some point. Yet, wasn't that true of Jesus, who was god before his mortal birth?
@Blake Ostler Isn’t the idea that God was always god but became man at some point to get a body almost akin to Adam-god theory? And did he die or was he translated in that state? I assume he couldn’t be resurrected as Christ hadn’t been respected (assuming as you say that one savior is enough)? Interesting discussion.
I don't see any relation between the view that God was always God but became human as anything at all like Adam-God theory. It is like Jesus Christ being a divine being as the giver of the law and maker of worlds and then becoming human.
@@blakeostler8965 this idea makes me fairly anxious because to me if God was not always God then he is a contingent being. Can he still be God then? Also is it possible that God is unhappy in this position he kind of has no choice in, given that he is simply progressing along the path which existed even before him. Also is he the first mover? Surely there needs to be some Mind that transcends all time and matter?
@@kentclark9616 The notion of a "mind" that transcends time and space is incoherent. Although I believe that God the Father (and the Son also) was fully divine from all eternity before becoming mortal, I do not believe that the alternative idea that the person who is now God grew into being fully divine entails that "God" is contingent. The person of the Father could have factual ontological necessary existence and thus have existed without beginning even though divine status had a beginning.
@@blakeostler8965 why is a mind that transcends space time incoherent? Surely there needs to be a first cause? And wouldn’t the best candidate for that be a mind rather than some material or law like physical process?
@@kentclark9616 The notion of a "mind" that is timeless is incoherent because: (1) mind entail memories and thought about what do next and a timeless being cannot have memories or such thought; (2) minds are supposedly causally interactive with matter but causation is a temporal notion. I address these issues as great length in vol. 1 Exploring Mormon Thought: The Attributes of God. And no, there is no necessity of a first cause. There is nothing incoherent about an eternal regress where each member of an infinite set is explained by other moments. The idea of an infinite set is fully coherent as Georg Cantor demonstrated.
Jesus is not created, He is eternal, he was never a man who exalted to a god. Jesus is the Alpha and the Omega. Joseph Smith followed the bible but then chose to bring in the pagan philosophy of Freemasonry, this is why it is so confusing with Mormonism, it has changed, and it continues to change. Jesus was always God, in Isaiah, 45:5 it says there is no God besides me. Jesus was a man but He was also God, He was always God. 1 Cor 8:6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom we live. You are terribly wrong about Christians not knowing the truth of God, we follow the scriptures, they take authority, they are the word of God, the bible is not some book that has never been proven or validated. Jesus was before the world was created John 17:24. All the answers are in the bible, you should read it so you can know God.
Ya-way is not the correct pronunciation of the tetragrammaton. The correct pronunciation is ah ha, the sound we make as we breathe. This is supported strongly both by scripture and prophetic witnesses.
@@sccc6766 In my view God knows all that can be known. The future doesn’t exist yet so it can’t be known (especially if our agency is real) this means that God is always growing in knowledge. Not practical knowledge like math or science things, but In experiential knowledge. There will always be new information to learn when dealing with other free beings. Does that make sense?
@@sccc6766 I'm if the belief that the nature of God is actually very simple and relatable to our own lives. So when I see a question like yours, I try to see the micro/earthly version. How is God eternally progressing through us and our progress? Well, how are our grandparents constantly being honored and added to add their family grows? Grandparents are honored and cherished with each new grandchild, then again with great-grandchildren and so on.
I’m a fairly progressive Protestant Christian trying to get more understanding of LDS thought, and this has been a marvelous conversation to listen to. Very thought provoking and I love that in the end of it all of it comes down to love.
Ultimately, it comes down to comprehending the famous quote of CS Lewis, that we are all gods, and that we need to recognize all others as gods starting with our godly parents, real biological godly parents.
Baxter Kruger and Brad Jsrsak, non-LDS scholars, taught similar ideas at the Forgotten Gospel conference in 2016. These revelations are being planted in many that have the mind of Christ as the whole of reality comer closer to the fullness that is.
I wrote my last post around 25 minutes in to the video then went back and resumed the discussion. I was pleased to see that my idea, even though not exactly consistent with what was being presented, wasn't far off.
Sometimes I think I know nothing and that I am unworthy. Other times I feel blessed and endowed. Long may it last.
Joseph Smith taught that the wedding ring represents the eternal nature of marriage. A solid band has no apparent beginning or end. A marriage has a temporal beginning but becomes eternal with no beginning or end. That’s my take on it anyway.
Thanks Jacob, for this insightful and very important conversation about the eternality of Heavenly Father. It should also be noted that the Hebrew word used for eternity in the old testament is "olam", and it doesn't seem to mean a never-ending, eternal period of time when denoting past time, specifically. It simply implies a remote point in the distant past, or antiquity, or a certain point beyond that. Whenever we read the word "eternity" or "eternal" in the scriptures, we tend to think of it in the sense of never-ending perpetuity or continuity. But the Hebrews did not necessarily think of it that way in terms of the past.
I would take somewhat of a hybrid stance based on the quote “God himself, finding he was in the midst of spirits and glory, because he was more intelligent, saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have a privilege to advance like himself.”
So in the pre-pre-existence at the very beginning, we were all among an infinite number of primordial spirits/intelligences. And because there are an infinite number, we are all unique, one of an infinite number of slight variations and permutations in personality/temperament/traits, etc. God was the one spirit of the infinite whose permutation was in a perfect configuration. So everyone else was slightly suboptimal in some way.
So because we existed in this primordial chaos, there was no boundaries or limitations, no way to distinguish between the self and the other, so it was impossible to become self aware and realize that fundamental cogito ergo sum (I think therefore I am) and begin organizing an order out of the chaos.
Except for God. Being perfect, he was able to take that first step and begin his eternal progression. So at that point, even if God was less progessed than even the youngest spirit child of God is now, he was still infinitely more progressed than the rest of us were then, so he was still Godly compared to us, and therefore was God for eternity backwards.
God then progresses to a perfect knowledge and godhood, the order of events is unclear, but we know he incarnated into a mortal body like Jesus before upgrading to a perfect body of flesh and bone. He married heavenly mother, Jesus is his first born in his new organized kingdom, and he enters into a godhead relationship with the Son and the Spirit. And we arrive at the point of the divine council and Lucifer’s rebellion.
So God takes us out of the primordial chaos and places us in an organized place with boundaries where we are able to define a stable identity, symbolized by how he endows us with a new name and organizes our spirits into the image of God instead of the primordial undefined shape we had before. This is how we become spirit children of God. Instituting laws allowing us to progress as he progressed, as we were unable to discern the laws of nature on our own.
This is wonderful. Thanks
That is wonderful b.s. ! Who Crucified H F to have him go from an incarnation to a Glorified body like Jesus.
How did HM become a god or is she only a demigod wife of HF that U don't worship!
@@davidjanbaz7728 You know David, the whole point of speculation is to try and provide explanation for things you don’t know about.
In much the same way, going by your standard, Nicene speculation on the trinity is also B.S.
And I would consider that this Adam God - the first exalted intelligence - did not need a mortal existence as we suffer thru (this condition that we are currently in is a plan that allows us an easier path to a desired outcome - like having a car as opposed to having to walk everywhere.). But the only way to "save" the other intelligences was to sacrifice himself in order to provide a beacon, a light, a way to progress from primordial intelligences to a fulness of joy. This Adam God fell, that we might be; and we exist in order to obtain a fulness of joy. He gave up His position, and status, and exalted existence in order to rejoin his brethren in the primordial condition. He had the faith to die for his brethren, believing that the process which created his exalted condition could be replicated - in Himself. He had faith that being obedient to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel (the Eternal nature of it) would allow him to enter again into the Joy and Peace which he had obtained - to be resurrected.
Is there an Adam God? I would say that it makes the most sense to me in the scope of all this. Can I be wrong about it? I am pretty confident that I am incorrect in some aspects of it of course.
@anthonym2499 you are right in some, off in others.
Psalm 90:2..from everlasting to everlasting thou art God
Wow! My mind is Blown!🤯
Wonderful discussion! There are some things I don’t agree with like “eternal progression between kingdoms” for example and I also feel there are things not necessary to know for salvation. Overall I love conversations like these and can’t wait to see what it’s like in the eternities.
I am here because RC Meisty sent me here, thanks for the presentation.
Interesting to think about and discuss, but this subject is not yet fully revealed. I still hold to the infinite regress view. I must say though, I certainly look forward to the day promised to the faithful as "A time to come in the which nothing shall be withheld, whether there be one God or many gods, they shall be manifest" (D&C 121:28).
I remember Truman G. Madsen quoting from some bit of something Joseph said, were it was stated that Christ beheld in vision the Father himself going through an atoning suffering, in preparation for his own in the Garden of Gethsemane. It implied, that while we are all divine beings, capable of inheriting the Celestial Kingdom, only the (for lack of a better term) royal bloodline held the position of "Most High God", and were the Saviours of their respective generations. The rest of us being children begotten UNTO God, but only Christ was a begotten son OF God. I think there is a talk from Oliver Cowdery in one of the Journal of Discourses volumes where he was about to expound that precise subject, but due to time did not.
Personally, on the "eternity problem" I have often thought that time, like space, is multi-dimensional. God does experience the flow of time, but it is orthogonal (not parallel) to our own experience, and from his vantage point he can see the entirety of the time we experience, and intervene at particular locations throughout it. Furthermore, in the field of math, known as set theory, we know that there are "orders of infinity", that certain infinities are actually provably smaller than other infinities. This could show, quite well, that there may also be orders of this thing we call "eternity", wherein our mensuration of what constitutes "eternal" would be different, depending on what order of eternity we occupy.
I don't know if you're getting at what I think, but I think that each ”eternity" is its own thing and perhaps alpha and Omega refers to the beginning of this eternity. That is how I have come to think of it. That God did go through a similar process that we are going through, but at the same time can say he has been God forever, because his definitions of words are not ours. With a perfect God language, he can make more sense with his words than we can with our imperfect words and human interpretations. I think both ideas can be right at the same time.
Just notating - In Neal A. Maxwell's book called, "Even As I Am" pages 36 through 38 can be reviewed on this topic.
It totally sounds like fractals or Mandelbrot sets. You zoom out or in for eternity and it's infinitely complex, yet repeating as in one eternal round.
Thinking about Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ and myself, I've always thought there should be a pattern regarding our relationship and eternal progression. In trying to imagine the things the God has prepared for those that love Him, I really let my imagination go at times. I have never shared this with anybody else for fear that I may be heretical. However, seeing you guys talk about the nature of God has given me the confidence to state a thought that I have had a long time now.
Simply put, after this life, does Heavenly Father progress to another role, does Jesus Christ progress to be a Heavenly Father in a future creations and do those who qualify for the Celestial Kingdom progress to be Saviours in a particular creation?
I know it sounds fanciful but I
have only started to watch your podcasts this last few weeks and I have been surprised by the content of your video presentations and I enjoy them thoroughly.
Thank you for these thoughts and I hope and pray that someone with knowledge responds to your comment and question so that we may all receive enlightenment. It has been 8 days since your comment so I guess holding my breathe waiting for responses will result in me passing out and that will be the only answer that I will receive. Thanks again. By the way, I have asked similar questions and have felt the same way that you do. Asking about the mysteries is almost a forbidden thing with some members even though Heavenly Father specifically tells us to search the mysteries. My main question is to do with the Earth becoming the Celestial Kingdom and Heavenly Father coming to dwell here with us. My question is wondering why Father is leaving the place where He currently lives to come to this Celestial Kingdom.
@@MichaelJones-lh1ug I suppose we all get curious and want to know things that are not really necessary to know regarding our salvation.
When we get to inherit all Heavenly Father has, we will know the answer to these type of questions.
I suppose, however, I want to fully understand John 17:3
Love this discussion! So grateful I found this channel
John recorded the concept very distinctly.
John 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
31:49 Agreed. It’s like an inflating balloon that won’t pop-it’s already full of air, but it gets “fuller” anytime you breathe more air into it
Great dialogue! I've also tried to unravel these ideas, that so perplex my very limited understanding, but I awoke one morning recently and an insight was there, that seemed to have just been inserted. I don't understand what it means yet, although it may refer to the idea of "intelligences" and how they manifested. Here it is: DNA exists not only physically, but spiritually. Divine DNA are god potential like biological DNA is human potential.
Well DNA itself is physical but what’s special about DNA is not it’s Physical substance but the abstract code that it contains. So depending on what you mean by spiritual. It’s certainly transcendent in that the information found in DNA is irreducible and beyond the limits of what physical laws and matter can produce.
Awesome!
35:49 I guess I don’t see the tension because the Church, both as an official institution and as a simple amalgamation of lay people can be described in the same way. Whenever people with institutional positions gather, someone will be the head person there. Whenever individuals gather-especially as families-someone will be the head there. Abraham 3:6-9 outlines the same kinda thing: that one fact will always exist “above” another fact. And you can definitely do that infinitely
Best theology summation ever at about 32:00.
Professor Falconer at the Y would ask questions about the meaning of the infinite and eternal Atonement of Jesus Christ like did it apply to the mortal sins of him who would become his eternal father and did Christ's ressurection facilitate the ressurection of him who we refer to now as God?
Context is King...
Seems that Blake is promoting " the doctrine of the second chance". Denounced by Bruse R. McConkie as a heresy. Hayden asked many excellent questions, that weren't fully fleshed out. Wish they had been.
I understand where Blake is coming from about the unity of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.
But another central tenet of our theology is that the creation or organization of spirits or the concept of "eternal increase" is dependent on a marriage relationship between man and woman.
So in the concept of the Most High that Blake is espousing, where is the Mother? The absence of discussion about the Father's choices to love HER whenever the option was presented is what is leading to an uneasy sense for me here. And is she likewise a partner in having ALWAYS chosen the light whenever presented a choice? If not, where does her godhood originate?
Because there's a large Heavenly Mother shaped hole in this discussion.
Joseph Smith never once taught about or mentioned the mother in heaven -- and what he did say is not consistent with the view of a mother in heaven who gives birth to spirits.
@@blakeostler8965 I don't know about the "giving birth to spirits" part, but I didn't mention that directly. You inferred it. But the implication that we "cannot have an increase" without entering into the marriage sealing implies some interdependence or cocreative role of men and women together that we cannot rule out, whatever that act is.
How do you square the claim that Joseph never taught about her with his recorded private comments about her?
In addition, how so you square that with the church's continued insistence on her role as Mother?
The conversation here is that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost together are God, but the implication is that if the Mother is present as God in some form, she was "picked up" along the way rather than having a self-existent nature as the Father.
@@blakeostler8965 I would like this question to be a part of your next discussion, because it's important.
@@blakeostler8965 Jesus did not have the fullness of the Father in the pre-earth life. For the D&C tells us that he had to come to earth to go from grace to grace through the experiences of the Father until he obtained the fullness of the Father in the Resurrection. And only then he could become all that the Father is once he had received his Celestial Resurrected body to enter into his final state like unto the Father's to receive a fullness of Joy. For without having a Celestial glorified body if he only had just a spirit body then he could not obtain a fullness of Joy for the spirit and the body cannot experience a fulness of the Father unless they are both joined together in the Resurrection...Therefore Jesus went from Grace to Grace until he Obtained a Fullness from the Father.
Because you cannot enter into a fullness of joy with the Father without having a glorified resurrected body of the same degree of light and glory that the Father has.
So Jesus wasn't complete in the pre-earth life in his spirit body state even through he had glory with the Father and with the Holy Ghost.. He needed also a Resurrected
body like unto the Father's in order to be complete. Reach full development. Having just a spirit body is not full development of God..
@@germanslice Actually Jesus had a fullness of glory and he emptied himself of that glory when he became mortal. He was fully divine because he presented himself as divine with the name YWHW. Both the Holy Ghost and Jesus were fully divine before becoming mortal and so your unfounded assumption that one has to be resurrected before receiving a fullness of divinity is demonstrated to be false. D&C 93 actually supports the view that Christ was divine with the Father before becoming mortal.
Someone finally gets it! The whole picture! Amazing! So looking forward to meeting you some day, Brother Ostler.
I disagree! I honestly don't think anyone in mortality gets it. Not even the prophets understand fully the truth. That is why President Nelson told us that the restoration of all things is continuing. I do believe we must be careful what we think is true or what someone else interprets in their studies. We as mortals can cause others to doubt their faith by presuming that we understand because of our education or I.Q. Joseph Smith had questions that weighed heavy on his mind. He did not seek out the most brilliant minds on religion in his day. He turned to God's word and followed it by going to the grove to pray.
I don't agree that we will continue to grow for all eternity on a personal development context.
Neal A. Maxwell has stated some things on this concept. "All These Things Shall Give Thee Experience" -
Yet, "he grew in wisdom and in stature" during a mortality.
Yet Neal A. Maxwell, "In a very real way, all we really need to know is that God knows all." - There's nothing amid a personal development context that God 'grows' or 'learns'. Neal A. Maxwell is clear about this in other statements as well.
I kind of think of it more as growing in glory, not understanding. When you are a parent, you learn so many things, it's like being born again. I assume that when you become a grandparent and have a role as a counselor, but not directly in charge, things change and you gain more insight and joy watching your own children become parents. When/if we become exalted, Our Heavenly Father will grow in glory and joy. Perhaps we aren't the first group of children even.
I’d love to hear from Blake his analysis of the theology of the Holy Ghost. I heard him once say on his podcast he thought it was unified mind of the Father and Son.(LoF) What would be his take on the Holy Ghost being a anthropomorphic entity that will someday receive a mortal body?
Sounds like a version of Adam God theory😊
At 50:32 in the video, Blake says 'We're all sons of God except . . .' I could not hear/understand what he said at that point. Did someone catch that and could you enlighten me? Thank-you.
He said: “except for those who are female, they’re daughters of God”
1:00:35 - It's an interesting idea, which I've heard my father cite without source. The closest thing I've found in scripture to support this idea is in 2 Ne. 10:3, "there is none other nation on earth that would crucify their God."
From there we kind of extrapolate an analogy: Nephites are to the Jews as extraterrestrials are to earthlings, and from this conclude that "there is none other nation on [none other] earth that would crucify their God."
And it kind of makes sense that this Earth, home of some of the best and brightest, as well as many of the worst of souls, is the ghetto of the universe.
This earth has played host to Jesus Christ, Joseph Smith, George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Newton, Beethoven, the brother of Jared ... and Cain, Nimrod, Akish, Gadianton, Marx, Hitler, Stalin...
It's a world of contrasts, which I don't suppose is replicated to quite this extreme on other worlds.
Jesus is not half human and half divine. Rather is Theanthropos, the God man. The Lord Jesus Christ is one eternally divine Person who will forever possess two distinct yet inseparable natures: one divine and one human. Fully God and fully man.
Fully god and fully man that doesn’t hold ??
This is Blake, not Richard/"Papa".
Thanks, that's helpful
Interesting discussion, entertaining and informative, though I feel it’s unnecessary. Much of these thoughts, principles or truths will be clearly revealed in the eternal hereafter. The doctrines of Christ and salvation are immense enough to occupy any and all time that we have. And likely more essential and beneficial to our individual and eternal progression back to our Heavenly Father. Likely my comment isn’t worth much, but I’m grateful to know that in His wisdom and time the mysteries of God will be revealed to us clearly. Thank you.
Just some thoughts ... be they as they may.
Spose you desire to be an arTEESt and you create a drawing but you keep getting frustrated that the drawing is not turning out the way that it is supposed to look - so you destroy it and start another attempt. Each attempt proves just as futile as the last and you end up with a studio littered with the death and destruction of failure after failure. When you are finally satisfied with the drawing you have finished the your work and you finally have a clear and faithful representation of what you were trying to draw.
When you "tuna" piano, how do you know when youve got it in tune? When you order a pizza, how do you know if what is delivered is correct? Whendle yous writicate a sentencical form, atle whichery momentary doesle itta makery cents?
This is prolly akin to Platos forms. The ideal form of a thing exists, and we have been exposed to this ideal form; otherwise, how would we know how to distinguish what a thing is, against what a thing is not?
The concept of God is an ideal condition that exists apart from any tangible bodily construction. It is the pinnacle of eternity. But the concept itself has no body, no parts, and no passion. The concept is the standard against which we can know when a thing is something other than God. When I receive a tangible pizza, I can know without a doubt if it is what I ordered; or if its a false representation of what a pizza is. If it has pineapples, then I have been deceived.
The priesthood organization is a fair model. Deacon, teacher, and priest are not limitations of the priesthood; they are a progression of the priesthood. A teacher is not absolved of the duties of a deacon; and a priest is not absolved of the duties of a teacher. What does a deacon do? Only what he has seen a teacher do. What does a teacher do? Only what he has seen a priest do. If a deacon fails to do his responsibilities then his progression stops. If a deacon attempts to define his own duties and responsibilities - his progression within the priesthood stops. What does a son do? Only what he has seen his father do. Can he progress by any other way? God forbid! What did Adam do? Only what he had seen his father do. Could he progress any further upon any other foundation? Of course not. For there is only one way, one truth, one manner in which we can move from one condition to another.
I would consider that the Hayden model-A is the more accurate description but that it lacks some details. I dont think having time as a separate experience from the Godhead is accurate - unless it is meant to convey our mortal/fallen perception of time. Above the line of time, I would label the concept of God (the Spirit of God; the essense of Godliness; the Priesthood of God). And the personages within it comprise the orders of the Godhood - or the Godhead. The unorganized matter/intelligence does not stand as a separate condition apart from the Godhood; but is rather a delineation of the progression thru the "priesthood". The (inf ...) which represents an infinite regression I would consider to be inaccurate; or rather, it has not been fully revealed as to what is beyond that moment. It is very possible that there is a mechanic involved that is not fully transparent to our experiences in this mortal condition - 2Cor 12:4.
And when I stand before God and He inevitably informs me that my thoughts and ideas on the matter are faulty and foolish; then I am humble enough to have Him correct me on the matter. If it is His will that I suffer in hell for the rest of my existence for my conceptions ... then I will do so gladly - no weeping or wailing or gnashing of my teeth in opposition to His will.
God's time is higher and not an arrow pointing to the right. We learn in scripture that all things are before Him. I believe that when the Book of Mormon teaches that Jesus Christ condescended, it means that He left His time to come to our lower time. He left His fulness of divinity by being born to a mortal woman, but had the promise that He was still one with the Father, meaning that as He received grace for grace throughout His life, He simply was discovering His eternal Godhood (which He always has been). His miracles, including having control of the waves of the sea, was evidence of this.
I recently had this thought come into my mind; Only the sacrifice of a God (Jesus Christ) could permit us back into the presence of a God (Heavenly Father)
I know we speak of the “final judgement”, but do we actually believe that it is final? I know D&C 19 hints at it not being final, but then what if it’s not final?
I'm not sure I fully understand your question but I'm gonna take a shot at it anyway. I think the "final judgement" is final... and not. When I was exxed from the church, the judgement in my membership was final and cut off. That was the judgement for my actions. After being rebaptized, it's a of I'm starting fresh, as a new soul - and really, I feel that. While there was a final judgement for who I was, there is a renewed effort for me to try again. Now, idk what that looks like if a macro, eternal scale, but I think everything we experience in this life is a micro, temporal mirror of it.
In the bible we are taught how to pray to our father which art in heaven and close our prayer in the name of his son jesus christ because our salvation is through the atonement of jesus christ many places in the bible jesus prays to his father in heaven in the garden on the Cross when he was baptised the holy spirit came down and decended apon him this truth is revealed to those who sincerely seek the truth those that don't the scriptures say will have a stupid of thaught and how stupid it is to believe that our heavenly father jesus christ and the holy spirit are all the one person they each played a seperate part as a team to bring to pass the eternal life of man
Your comment at the 22 minute mark will live in infamy.
Blake was asked, “About Core Doctrine and LDS Theology?”
Blake answers, Quote, “I don’t believe either exist.” All three of you then laugh.
We wave had 200 plus years of LDS living prophets and apostles and you three admit dispite all your public presentations and defense of the church that in reality there is no well defined theology or core doctrine in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints?
So Blake, the BOM states it is the most correct book on earth and a man will grow closer to god by abiding by its precepts than any other book. But, you admit we don’t know who god is? So you write another book to explain what prophets and apostles haven’t been able to do for over 200 years.
Three TBM’s still trying to figure out who god really is while the “average” member only thinks they do.
This is crazy coming from 3 Mormons.
If the Father has a resurrected perfect body then...
wow
God is both -Eternally the Most High God forever, and a Perfect Man that grew from a mortal being to a divine, perfect, eternal being.
I would present that, via the Eternal Holy Spirit, (which is spirit matter and intelligence that exists throughout all space and connects to everything) all Divine Beings become one in Spirit, Light and Truth and that is the Most High God. Any individual united to that Spirit completely is that "Most High God" even though each individual is physically separate.
Groundhog Day! Great representation of reality!
From Dr Heiser’s website( see below) . It is completely disingenuous to use his work to support Mormonism , When he is on record saying he disagrees with the LDS position “ No, I’m not a Mormon (as my academic Mormon friends will tell you). This post links to an article I had published in a Mormon journal explaining why I think the Mormon understanding of Psalm 82 is wrong (really - how refreshingly open-minded). Still, some people out there like to (literally) lie about me (i.e., they know about that paper and omit it in their online material about me when expressing disagreement with my take on Psalm 82).“
I am struggling with Blake's the idea that the Godhead was more loving and that we could have chosen the same but did not (yet) for whatever reason. Lehi teaches that existence, agency, and sense and sensibility (power to know all things--which is the source of pure love) is a function of the Atonement of Jesus Christ. The fall and mortality is the father of the Atonement... and the Father was once mortal too. All this seems to add up to there being no way the Godhead could arrive at perfect love in any other way than the same as the rest of us do???
I would love to hear more thoughts on the Holy Ghost since in Hebrew and Aramaic it is feminine, translated to Greek as neutral and then translated to Latin as masculine. So is the Holy Ghost possibly Heavenly Mother. I’d say yes because that trinity would really make sense. But I’m the BofM the Holy Ghost is revealed as a Man.
I asked the same question too
And somebody told me the First Presidency is all male...which implies that The Godhead must also be all male?
@@crisantocabrerajr.8540 The priesthood is male. The Holy Ghost does not have a body, exalted or no. It is spirit, and therefore dwells in all of us.
While the revealed truths about what or who the Holy Ghost is, amounts to a smidgen more above any truths about a Heavenly Mother(s) ... I would be satisfied in accepting that the Holy Ghost is a personage that has experience with both a celestial order of things and an earthly order of things. If the records are accurate, then in one Journal of Discourse, Brigham Young gave names to the members of the Godhead - Elohim, Jehovah, and Michael. And unless Michael is a common name among the sons of God ... that would point to Adam.
@@anthonym2499 That is the suggestion, but numerous prophets have denounced such concepts. It saddens me that Brigham is no longer here to be adequately questioned regarding his opinions and whether it was simple speculation / conviction that he held.
@@randomnerd9088 ... my luck, he would just slit my throat from ear to ear with a bowie knife :/ But yes, i agree with you on that. The concept in my mind is beautiful - a father testifying to his son and revealing the truth of all things. Just as in Gen4, where the LORD is having a conversation with Cain. I read that as Adam and Cain having that conversation; yet it stands at odds with the written account because the word for LORD is YHVH, or Jehovah. I attempt to reconcile it as a linguistic device where the Spirit of Jehovah is motivating Adam within the discussion - so whether it is the actual personage of Adam or not tends to be moot to me. Just as it doesnt matter if the Church is being led today by the words of President Nelson instead of the words of Brigham Young - both men are fulfilling the role that is required of them for governing of the Church. I am more familiar with President Kimball tho - but then thats just my age showing :)
I found the story that has been floating about in my mind; its from JoD 2; "GATHERING AND SANCTIFICATION OF THE PEOPLE OF GOD", GEORGE A. SMITH. Sorry, it was all caps when i copied it.
"We thus passed on from the year 1837 until the year 1843, when the Lord concluded that the people who had been gathered, since the scattering from Missouri, had been made acquainted with the principles of His kingdom so long, that they must have become strong enough for Him to reveal one sentiment more. Whereupon, the Prophet goes up on the stand, and, after preaching about everything else he could think of in the world, at last hints at the idea of the law of redemption, makes a bare hint at the law of sealing, and it produced such a tremendous excitement that, as soon as he had got his dinner half eaten, he had to go back to the stand, and unpreach all that he had preached, and left the people to guess at the matter. [...], and said, “If I were to reveal the things that God has revealed to me, if I were to reveal to this people the doctrines that I know are for their exaltation, these men would spill my blood.”
There are truths which are to remain unpreachable, and to reveal them as tho they were as evident as the light of day would send the whole lot of us to hell. We would reject them and curse God to our own damnation. So line upon line, and precept upon precept, we must go until we are prepared for a fulness thereof. My concern is getting thru the things we need to get thru in this life and saving the mysteries for whatever lies afterwards :)
But what do the “ prophets, Seers, and Revelators“ say?
Nursery school babies. We are them and they are us and we are all together. Hoo koo ka choo. (I am the walrus)
Dr Heiser was an evangelical , not a Mormon , he was a critic of Mormonism.
If christ is man and only has his divine nature, how does that affect the atonement? Doesn't it need to be an eternal sacrifice by a God?
Does God have glory that he isn’t willing to share?
Isaiah 42.8
The "chain" started as an infinitely small mobius loop and is expanding into an infinitely large one. God is growing, we are growing, reality is growing, etc. Creation is God and God is creation and all are in God and God is in all and all, all is one. The holiest prayer of Israel, the Shema, states this plainly to those who comprehend it.
Much of what Blake says I have independently come to on my own. However, as much as Blake has set forth a viewpoint on the eternal nature of God, I’m not sure he has tied it all in together. For example, there was no discussion about the eternal nature of the role of women and the concept of a mother in heaven. Blake essentially says there isn’t difference between spirit beings and intelligences. However, the fact that there are male and female spiritual beings would suggest an eternal nature of what women’s role is with respect to creating spirit children. I cannot believe in an eternity where the function of women doesn’t exist. There is so much more to say about that but the comment section isn’t the place to go into the level of detail needed to explore the concept.
I have come to learn in life that God follows the laws of physics. This is heresy to many non-LDS Christians. Just as lift can overcome gravity resulting in the flying of an airplane, God knows how to use the various physical laws we learn about in science to override or counteract other physical laws. While this may appear to us to be a miracle, I do believe all miracles are applications of physical laws in ways we don’t not as yet understand. Just recently in terms of scientific thought, scientists are more and more concluding that the universe the earth is part of is a small part of the a larger group of universes known as the multiverse. At the time Joseph Smith published the Book of Abraham, the scientific beliefs of the day were a heliocentric model of the universe. It wasn’t until about 1920 that scientists abandoned that for a galactocentric model. That model was replaced by the Big Bang theory shortly thereafter. However a critical reading of the Book of Abraham from a scientific viewpoint would indicate that The Book of Abraham does not exclude the existence of a multiverse. This means that Joseph Smith was scientifically ahead of where science eventually got to a century later.
If we think of eternity in terms of starting at the beginning, then eternity can easily be understood to encompass the time frame from the beginning of the universe the earth is part of. If there has been one Big Bang there have been innumerable Big Bangs creating other universes existing beyond the boundaries of our universe. These Big Bangs have likely been happening eons before the Big Bang which created our earth and will continue for eons after. The varieties of matter created in a Big Bang event could easily account for the type of matter that spiritual beings and or intelligences are made of. A council of Gods makes all the sense in the world when acknowledging the high likelihood of a multiverse. This concept also accounts for the concept of God not always being God through an eternity that expands beyond the time frames of the universe we exist in.
Mose 1:39 says, “This is my work and my glory to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man”. Therefore when God loses one spirit child who failed to become like God he loses an infinite amount of glory. For each spirit child that becomes exalted, he gains an infinite amount of glory as those exalted beings each create an infinite number of spirit children who have the potential to become like God.
When you read the book of Abraham it talks about governing stars. It is clear grom astronomy that stars govern solar systems. The density of stars increase as you near the center of the galaxy. It is said that the center of the galaxy is placed a massive black hole. Is this not in essence a governing star of the galaxy? My theory is that our Hevenly father is God of this galaxy and in the beginning of the beginning that God's exalted brothers got together and created the universe each having his own to govern and people as was done before. I like this because it feels close, at home, rather than somewhere out there in a universe with no center and an ever expanding and excellerating edge. Take it for what it is worth, but it fee.s good to me...
The King Follet discourse is heresy.
I am in the same camp as Haden.
And what about christ being "the firstborn of creation"
Yes because he is the first born in the spirit and the first born of God as God and the only begotten of God
How can you be fully divine without a body?
Was Christ fully divine before his mortal life. Is the Holy Ghost fully divine now? Seems a fully divine being can have a body, but it is not a requirement of being fully divine.
@@coreyost28 I see the point kind of… but why we need bodies?
@@bigboybrock1205 the book of Mormon indicates that Christ obtained a physical body "that his bowels may be filled with mercy, according to the flesh, that he may know according to the flesh how to succor his people according to their infirmities." Whether or not Christ was "divine" before, it's implied that he didn't automatically know how people actually felt in their bodies, and he had to experience it himself to grasp it.
In my opinion, this is an excellent reason why we also need bodies. Everything we experience or feel gives us an opportunity to know how to empathize with others and, in this way, serve them and love them just as God would. While mortality is our own test, it seems applicable that part of that test is to connect with others around us; and actually feeling things with them helps us to know how to succor them.
@@DannyAGray D&C 93:33 and 138:17 both say we need a body in order to receive a fullness of Joy. Would it then be fair to say the Holy Ghost does not have a fullness of joy? Or is this only applicable to people who have sinned once before? I don’t think there is enough revelation to give an answer to these questions yet.
Also to the people in the video:
If Jesus emptied himself of some divine attributes, doesn’t that mean Jesus sinned in that view? Because I thought the only difference between a God and a sinner is sin?
I had thought that on your channel you were open to honest discussion which involved comparison of the various LDS views with those of mainstream Christianity. However, I see that you have deleted my comment which offered the mainstream view of Christ's kenosis in contrast to Blake's representation of it. Christ is understood to be eternal God, the Son, the Word, who did not give up his divine attributes when he became a man, but only veiled them, not exercising his divine privileges fully because he chose to be the suffering servant for our salvation As Christians have affirmed throughout history (St Athanasius is an early example), Christ the Word incarnate continued to keep ordering the universe even when he was a baby in the manger at Bethlehem. He was the union of two natures, God and Man in one Person. As man he grew in wisdom and stature, gaining human knowledge in the normal way, but also at times receiving knowledge and power which could only come from the Word/eternal Son operating through his human nature. If you are going to compare LDS and historic Christian teaching, you should represent the Christian teaching factually. I have, as I said, lost confidence in your sincerity in claiming to be "thoughtful" in any honest consideration of ideas.
Welcome to the club. Truth will out they say. And Jacob is out out. Don’t waste your time. Trust me ;)
what about evil?
Maybe God chose to experience mortality for the same reason Christ chose to be baptised. Completely unnecessary but to fulfil all righteousness
The thing that you seem to overlook in this discussion is the fact that there is and was a "plan of salvation." Those who come to this world to experience mortality were in the preexistence sons and daughters of gods. We are given four choices, and those choices are to abide by telestial, terrestrial, and celestial laws which promise certain degrees of glory, or the fourth choice is to become a son of Perdition. Those who make it to the celestial kingdom will ultimately become gods as Christ and Heavenly Father, and the Holy Ghost are Gods. Our temple covenants only prepare us to become priests and priestess, kings and queens. Eventually we have to do what Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ did, which is to become the Creator of worlds of our own, to take on mortal bodies of flesh and bones, and to do what Jesus did----to become Saviors of mankind. What you did not discuss is where did spirit children come from? They came from those who made it into the celestial kingdom. Are we not promised to be able to procreate other children? So, if spirit children already exist, then how can we procreate spirit children? I believe we were merely intelligences before our godly parents procreated us in our pre-earth life (i.e., those who followed the Savior in their earth life and made it into the celestial kingdom like we will do if we are faithful and endure to the end). That is why Joseph Smith could declare, "As man is, God once was. And as God is, man will one day become." Heavenly Father obtained his Godhood by doing what Christ did, and the other gods who followed him and qualified themselves for the celestial kingdom in their time eventually became gods, worlds without end. Just as Jesus Christ will become our most high God to inherit a world of his own, those who follow him will reside in his kingdom learning to become gods, and eventually Creators and Saviors, and thus Heavenly Father will be elevated to a greater degree of glory, while we strive to elevate ourselves by obedience to his laws, ordinances, and commandments, for there is order and unity in God's kingdoms, again worlds without end. I do not believe that intelligences have the same degree of knowledge and understanding as spirits do, but yet the Book of Abraham informs us that "the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones. (Abraham 3:22). I suppose those intelligences could possibly be the spirit children who were procreated by celestial parents, but we know that "there were many noble and great ones." If there are worlds without end, then likewise there are Gods without end, and no doubt councils of Gods who control the universe, galaxies, and planets without end. I would add one more thought, and that is this: Those who make it into the celestial kingdom, well actually each of the three degrees of glory will be saved, but only those who make it into the celestial kingdom who accept Christ as their Lord and Savior will become his sons and daughters and become heirs of God and joint heirs with Jesus Christ. It may take us eons of time before we actually become gods and goddesses and know what Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ know, but when we do, we may need to do what they did, and that is to become Creators and Saviors of the worlds we create. In some ways, that is a very scary thought to contemplate.
All good except Christ is the firstborn of the Father and the only begotten. I belive that means first born as a spirit child and and only begotten of God as God, meaning the only physical child God will have, or has had as God. Therefore is it not logical that we would follow the same pattern, when we reach that exaltation?
I'm with Hayden, and I keep the King Follett, the grove and D&C 121 within this manifestation of "the eternal plan".
God is a being with eternal existence but not always in the same state of being. This is the divine nature we posses also but in a different state from Him who we call , who Joseph called "the head god." He is the head of this manifestation of the plan and we as divine-in-nature (but not in fullness) were the gods there with Him. Even the scriptures be it Isaiah or psalms must be interpreted within the framework of THIS manifestation of the eternal plan. Isaiah 42 is an example to Israel. They relate to us and here.
Let's not slip into the Hellenized-Trinitarian mindset of trying to define "that, than which nothing greater can be imagined."
We know there is a greater context of framework but let's remember to keep things within the context relevant to this expression of "the plan." Find the distinction between "existence" and "state".
"Spirit cannot be destroyed, neither is it created" K.F.D...
One Eternal Round..
Endless is Eternal.
God cannot "know all things"... without "not knowing all things".... being included as a feature of His "knowing all things." "Not knowing all things" has to be included in "knowing all things"--or you do not "know" what "not knowing all things is"... and therefore do not "know all things." "As man is, God once was"... is axiomatic--whether we like it or not.
We also have to stop trying to figure things out from and reconcile things to our "time" and "progress" point of view. God dwells in "one Eternal NOW"--where there is "time no longer." That changes everything. If all things... including "time" are Eternaly present NOW... then God, Christ, and all of us have both always been God(s)--which "Godhood" must included, for all of us, our mortal "time" of "not knowing all things" and our interaction with Christ's Infinite Atonement's gift of opposition, agency, existence, and perceived beginning, end, and progress--even though, from the point of view of Eternal NOW... there is no beginning, end, or progress (on time or linear progression)--there is only Christ--the Author and Finisher of the Infinite At-ONE-ment or Eternal Now... for all of us and all things--without Him was not anything made that was made. We perceive progress... but it is ONE Eternal NOW--not stacked... but rather utterly infused--everything equaling everything. Hierarchy is simple essential order... otherwise there is chaos. It is hard for us, because of our mortal point of view, to get our head wrapped around the idea that everything already exists-infinitum. But... it does... like a film file in and Adobe program into which we can dive in at any point and expand and contract and explore any part of all we want or is expedient. Now... take this film strip and take the end of it and attach it to the beginning and you have ONE Eternal Round.
Eternity is not "linear time progress" oriented. One way to view "from Eternity to eternity" is... from Eternity (no time)--Time--to Eternity (no time).
As for ONE GOD... yes, Father is the only God--but if we as joint-heirs with Christ inherit and become all that the Father is and receive all that the Father hath--then we are all ONE with God--if you have seen me you have seen the Father... so there is only ONE God (even though it consists of an infinite number of us--God). This may also be why it is defined as Elohim (plural)... name, title, office, quorum, of God--the Infinite At-ONE-ment of God. It is like the ocean (God/Elohim) which consists of an infinite number of drops of water (God)--each drop being the ocean (God/Elohim).
God being once a man (and our ability to follow the same path and become like Him) isn't just Hayden's view. It's the view of the latter-day prophets from Joseph Smith forward. It's at the very core of the restored gospel. That much is clear. Much of this conversation seems to ignore this fact, goes beyond revealed doctrine, and delves into fruitless speculation and pontificating that does little more than mix the Gospel with the philosophies of men. In other words, a weird amalgamation of apostate Christianity and the fullness of the Gospel and how God is viewed. Didn't think I would see that on this channel.
This is a "podcast" designed to make money... and based on that business model, having on "guests" and broadening the audience is key to that business model success... If the guests have "books they sell" it gives the potential guests a reason to come on to said podcasts because their books, by proxy, will also sell more and everyone makes more money...
"labor for Zion, and not for gain"
Someday we will all understand just how important that really was
@@Zion_Or_Bust I give Jacob, Blake, and Hayden the benefit of assuming they're here to have sincere discussions and not just sell books or make money. I just think they (at least Jacob and Blake) have wandered off into the mist on this issue.
@@Zion_Or_Bust I’m pretty sure the design of this podcast is not to make money 🤦🏻♂️
I don’t think it goes off that far… couldn’t that quote of being like man be interpreted in many different ways?
@@ItsSnagret No. It's pretty cut and dry. And a key part of the Restored Gospel. One that separates us from sectarian Christianity.
I don’t believe you can become DAT without living multiple probations. A spirit doesn’t come to earth one time and then boom he’s God it’s impossible. You have to learn line up upon line precept upon precept. You have to have adversity and you’re not just born a perfect being.
So who cares what this guy says? Is he a prophet?
God hasn't yet reviewed all the mysteries because he won't be mocked the only way it could happen is by personal revelation or through the prophets why would he put these mysteries out there for podcasts like Mormon stories to insult the father son and holy ghost are one in purpose they work together to bring about the eternal life of man we were created in the image of God we pray to our father in heaven through his son jesus christ when jesus christ arose and went back to heaven he said he would send the comforter the holy spirit to guide us heavenly father jesus christ and the holy spirit are 3 seperate beings a young joseph smith wouldnt make that up because of josephs vision satan is so angry about it that's why we are the most criticised church on the face of the earth but when you have a testimony of the trinity as 3 seperate beings you will find peace in your heart that passeth all understanding I pray to heavenly father and thank him for sending his son
The God that is infinite, eternal and unchangeable with all tri-omni power is the John 17 type UNION (the Elohim) that creates worlds without number. The finite members of that UNION are all beings like Jesus: eternal intelligences in eternal progression. The notion of a Being with a Body that exists from all eternity cannot be correct.
Wasn't it explained that that being obtained a body and experienced mortality prior to Jesus' experience with mortality. Not that fleshly body exists eternally.
hmm, that last sentence is an interesting challenge. Meaning God would have not had a body at some point. Yet, wasn't that true of Jesus, who was god before his mortal birth?
Why not?
Well Jesus still has his body
Revelations 1:6 talks about Grandpa God per Joseph Smith. So not in full agreement of your ending conclusions.
If there is a grandpa god why wouldn't we worship that god?
@@jerryhenson4395 in a traditional home setting, do children obey their parents or their grandparents more? Who is the head of the household?
@@jerryhenson4395you being silly go read this week come follow me as it speaks about seeing and hearing spiritual and hard hearted folks.
Do not grandchildren bring a person more glory and joy?
@Blake Ostler Isn’t the idea that God was always god but became man at some point to get a body almost akin to Adam-god theory?
And did he die or was he translated in that state? I assume he couldn’t be resurrected as Christ hadn’t been respected (assuming as you say that one savior is enough)? Interesting discussion.
I don't see any relation between the view that God was always God but became human as anything at all like Adam-God theory. It is like Jesus Christ being a divine being as the giver of the law and maker of worlds and then becoming human.
@@blakeostler8965 this idea makes me fairly anxious because to me if God was not always God then he is a contingent being. Can he still be God then? Also is it possible that God is unhappy in this position he kind of has no choice in, given that he is simply progressing along the path which existed even before him. Also is he the first mover? Surely there needs to be some Mind that transcends all time and matter?
@@kentclark9616 The notion of a "mind" that transcends time and space is incoherent. Although I believe that God the Father (and the Son also) was fully divine from all eternity before becoming mortal, I do not believe that the alternative idea that the person who is now God grew into being fully divine entails that "God" is contingent. The person of the Father could have factual ontological necessary existence and thus have existed without beginning even though divine status had a beginning.
@@blakeostler8965 why is a mind that transcends space time incoherent? Surely there needs to be a first cause? And wouldn’t the best candidate for that be a mind rather than some material or law like physical process?
@@kentclark9616 The notion of a "mind" that is timeless is incoherent because: (1) mind entail memories and thought about what do next and a timeless being cannot have memories or such thought; (2) minds are supposedly causally interactive with matter but causation is a temporal notion. I address these issues as great length in vol. 1 Exploring Mormon Thought: The Attributes of God. And no, there is no necessity of a first cause. There is nothing incoherent about an eternal regress where each member of an infinite set is explained by other moments. The idea of an infinite set is fully coherent as Georg Cantor demonstrated.
Jesus is not created, He is eternal, he was never a man who exalted to a god. Jesus is the Alpha and the Omega. Joseph Smith followed the bible but then chose to bring in the pagan philosophy of Freemasonry, this is why it is so confusing with Mormonism, it has changed, and it continues to change.
Jesus was always God, in Isaiah, 45:5 it says there is no God besides me. Jesus was a man but He was also God, He was always God. 1 Cor 8:6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom we live. You are terribly wrong about Christians not knowing the truth of God, we follow the scriptures, they take authority, they are the word of God, the bible is not some book that has never been proven or validated.
Jesus was before the world was created John 17:24. All the answers are in the bible, you should read it so you can know God.
This is painful - I will reply correcting this sophomoric heresy and hubris when time allows. Where to begin 😑
Ya-way is not the correct pronunciation of the tetragrammaton. The correct pronunciation is ah ha, the sound we make as we breathe. This is supported strongly both by scripture and prophetic witnesses.
Lol never heard this
If there is an eternally uncreated "head God" how could our exaltation into Godhood increase that god's glory?
Being eternally uncreated doesn't have anything to do with glory so.... not sure what problem you are trying to point out. Can you explain?
@@coreyost28 as in, how does God's knowledge expand as exaltation progresses?
@@sccc6766 In my view God knows all that can be known. The future doesn’t exist yet so it can’t be known (especially if our agency is real) this means that God is always growing in knowledge. Not practical knowledge like math or science things, but In experiential knowledge. There will always be new information to learn when dealing with other free beings. Does that make sense?
@@coreyost28 yes. This view resolves the omniscience and free will problem too
@@sccc6766 I'm if the belief that the nature of God is actually very simple and relatable to our own lives. So when I see a question like yours, I try to see the micro/earthly version. How is God eternally progressing through us and our progress? Well, how are our grandparents constantly being honored and added to add their family grows? Grandparents are honored and cherished with each new grandchild, then again with great-grandchildren and so on.