I strongly encourage you to read By Means of the Urim and Thummim by Jonathan Neville. It is essential reading when it comes to understanding the translation process. I was also a bit surprised that he hasn't read the book cover to cover. I wrote Steven a letter relating how it was a man (a protestor) outside the conference center that confronted me before my mission and--on finding out that I would be leaving on a mission soon--asked if I had read the Bible. He challenged me to read it and I managed to get that done before leaving. That was something that I made sure my sons did before they left on their missions. I have now read the Bible many times cover to cover and will forever be grateful to that person that confronted me. Steven needs to do the same! Until you have read the Book of Mormon cover to cover, you cannot appreciate its complexity and intricacy. In my mind, it is the very least you can do before proceeding any further in an investigation. I have had some interaction with him in the past and have always found him very friendly and reasonable. I hope that he will see this comment and take it as a challenge.
Jonathan Neville has presented the most comprehensive, common-sense, and intellectual explanation. So many Mormon academic apologists with those degrees of higher education, miss the mark entirely.
The BoM is very easy to dismiss. Even after a casual reading. Most people, even believing “Mormons”, have not done enough study to even glimpse how absolutely miraculous and astounding it is. There are layers upon layers of complexity that you can only witness for yourself, you can’t be told about it. The more I study it, the more astonished I am. 🙏
It's interesting how people can reach completely different views on exactly the same thing. The more I study The Book of Mormon, the more glaringly obvious it is a work of fiction. It doesn't get better with study, it gets worse. Interesting how that can be.
Agreed! I read it daily and I'm increasingly convinced that it can only be from God. It is extremely complex and symbolic as well as practical and applicable. It is an incredible, marvelous work and a wonder!
@@vendingdudes That's a term that's way over used, especially when ascribing it to others. I think you mean Confirmation Bias, or Cognitive Dissonance?
Steven your willingness to let the Lord break and rebuild you is a testament that you are His. I got goose bumps listening to your final words here and am convinced that you are a major player in the gathering of Israel before the great and terrible day of the Lord. One of the greatest quotes of The Chosen was when one of the disciples of Jesus asked him about all the different beliefs of those gathering. Jesus said let's just gather them together and we'll sort it out later. I believe in that day every one of us will need to be corrected in one way or another. We only condemn ourselves if we don't recognize Him when he comes.
Speaking to his former depression, we LOVE YOU Steven Pynakker. So grateful you're with us as an Evangelical who make us LDS people think about who we are. You've made a safer place for us in the Evangelical community, and so grateful you're here with us.
Thanks for interviewing Steven! I've listened to and enjoyed many of his videos/interviews on his MBR channel. This is the best 'heart to heart' discussion I've seen with him so far. I now have a better idea of exactly where he is coming from, and as always, have a great deal of respect for him and what he is doing.
Loved this episode guys, Steve is great. I love his epistemic humility, him taking the Book of Mormon seriously and his testimony of Jesus. I enjoyed this discussion. I love talking bout the Book of Mormon
Not only was Joseph Smith a prophet of God, he died a righteous man. How do I know? I’ve had several, personal spiritual revelations that have confirmed this to me. We can come up with all kinds of scenarios, but the bottom line is that the only way we can know the truth is if we sincerely ask God.
@@TwoTreesVisuals Well, if I ever meet any, I’ll ask them for their personal testimony, and then I will be in a better place to discern. Until then, I’ll go with the light and truth the Lord has given ME.
@latter-daysaintchristian4134 Hi👋🏼. I am FLDS. Very hesitant to put myself out there because I'm an introvert, and not real good with words. Also I value peace very highly and hate confrontation of any kind.🕊🤗 Still, if an honest-hearted person (which you seem to be) has a question I will do my best, with the help of God, to answer as appropriate.😊
@@savannabarlow8197 Savanna are you saying you're a part of the Warren Jeffs FLDS? Like he's the prophet? If so can you share why you believe in him or what feelings you had that made you believe? I'm genuinely curious about this.
I love this Steve guy. Thanks for the intro to him. He is fascinating to listen too. I like the way his brain processes. We need him here. ❤️ keep chatting & sharing, only love.
I loved hearing Steven's testimony. I've been a follower of his for awhile. What a great guy. I love his humility and his eagerness to study and learn. I've just recently found the Stick of Joseph TH-cam and am loving everything I've seen and listened to. You brothers inspire me greatly. Hope all three of you keep your TH-cam podcasts going and bringing people to Jesus. One thing I love is how I feel challenged to study, ponder, and pray more - I want to follow your examples.
Joseph Smith was not a genius. He was and is a Prophet of God. A Prophet, Seer and Revelator. No prophets are perfect. The Book of Mormon is a fascinating complex book of scripture. If you read it with an open mind you can see how it relates to what's happening in our world today. I love the Bible and the Book of Mormon. Love this discussion.
God didn't tell Joseph Smith to commit adultery with 14 year olds, and women married to other men. He was listening to a demonic spirit. WAKE UP and turn to the true God of the bible!
This was an excellent interview! Thank you guys for having this good, Evangelical brother who is very fair-minded, on your podcast! I think this helps all of us to see into one another's hearts. Because truly, at the end of the day the whole main focus and purpose of Our Lives is to love our Savior Jesus Christ, our Heavenly Father and to love one another and respect each other. All three of you did a really good job! God Bless you ALL!
Hello Saints was supposed to do this but he’s just picking verses and commenting. I would love to see someone do this on TH-cam without any commentary, just read it and let people decide.
@@james8996Interestingly, it seems you want to know about everything in detail. Bro, there's nothing like that. Much of eternal truths are learnt and taught by the Spirit. It's just like asking if is Jesus the Christ. How did you ever know if the man Jesus was the long prophecies Christ, if not you were told by Bible prophets or apostles? The same is true with the Book of Mormon. It can only be recorded by a Prophet. It's only a perverted generation that wants a sign to every truth.
Steven, personally, I am glad you are not a member of the LDS faith. Don't get me wrong, I would love for you to have those blessings. I think there is a different voice you have from outside the faith that is valuable. I have commented on your channel about Col. Kane, and how important he was to the early church while not being a member. I think there are many "friends" of the faith that can play important roles in helping there be understanding. That has a unique value of its own.
Based on Steven’s TH-cam content it’s with almost perfect knowledge and some faith, I know, Steven does not have an agenda. He’s a an expert voice about Stick of Joseph Christianity. Great guest choice.
I like the moldable clay analogy. I think that staying curious and open minded will keep our hearts and minds soft enough for truth and light to enter in regardless of its source. Once we become ridged in the things we believe that’s when we stop learning. This was a great conversation. So grateful for this kind of content.
Thank you for bringing Steven on your show. A great discussion. We all believe in Jesus Christ and what He did for us. We have much in common. We can do great things together:-)
I interview lots of faithful scholars and I've done research on the book of Mormon and evidences for it. I'd be happy to engage with you guys and share my concluding thoughts on the book of Mormon.
I'm an Orthodox Christian and I'm studying Theology and Religion at Uni in England, it is pretty refreshing to see more Mormons doing content on apologetics and theological work and challenging misconceptions in depth instead of brief explantations without depth, Latter day saints really need to get to the books and show other Christians the nitty gritty of doctrinal belief.
I've heard of pastors giving long sermons using basic cue cards, but I've never heard one using a chiasmus structure as in Alma 36, formulating multi-story threads together into a cohesive narrative similar to Mosiah, or quoting pages of Isaiah nearly verbatim from memory, making slight textual changes to match the Greek Septuagint. That's just getting started.
At 0:43 add to that question the maps or descriptions of the land without making a mistake. That he is nodding in belief makes me aware that mankind has arrived to that point where "we must deny the sun when it is shining in broad day light". Amazing.
How do Protestants simultaneously claim that the Bible is 100% the word of God but then say that the God of the Old Testament is different from Christ and that Christ wouldn’t do those types of destructions?
I personally knew Richard Baer who helped produce and act in "the godmakers" in animation. I remember his license plate was XMORMON. He was extremely bitter because he was ostracized by his wife and kids for leaving the church. Baer started a local Xmormon ministry, but upset his staff and chief assistant Ken McClatchy. This lead to Ken and others leaving the ministry entirely.
Joseph actually looked at the Plates when translating, trying to discern the meaning of the characters, and looked through the clear crystal stones (the interpreters touched by God) to gain the meaning of those characters. The translated text is in Joseph's words. It is a translation -- not a peep stone in a hat dictation. The stone in the hat story came from the Whitmer home when many in the household earnestly asked Joseph to show how the translation occurred. He then put a stone in the hat and put his head down and began quoting Isaiah. Those observing thought he was translating. Joseph had a photographic memory.
President Nelson even presents the hat theory in his interview in Palmyra. Whether it was the brown stone in a hat or the clear stone from the breastplate, it is the same process - seer, revelator. But the Book is true and theres no way he wrote it.
@@Stevemotzkus Yes, but there is no evidence to support that story being anything but a Demonstration, which some of the observers such as David Whitmer and others in the house, may have thought Joseph was translating. The primary parties in the Translation -- Jesus Christ, Joseph Smith, and Oliver Cowdery have been consistent in stating that the Book of Mormon in its entirety was translated through the Urim and Thumim, the two clear stones provided by God, touched by God, to translate sacred texts and magnify the user's mind. The medium through which we communicate in the Spirit realm is not through words and the U & T were prepared and infused with the Heavenly Technology by God. The pretty unusual stone Joseph collected from digging a well was just that, a very interesting stone that Joseph used in a demonstration at the Whitmer home. It was not touched by God. If fact, to try and use it as a peep stone is a practice "not of God" but part of what could be considered witchcraft. Believe the primary participants, not the well-meaning "witnesses" of the demonstration who related what they saw downstairs in the Whitmer home as a "translation" event. Remember, the actual translation occurred upstairs.
@@jasontucker3295 The Lights and Perfections (Urim & Thumim) were clear stones designed by God, similar to our cell phones but with higher spiritual technology. The person looking into them had to be prepared through diligent study and worthiness (lest one look upon them and parish). When Joseph lost the 116 pages it was due to sin and the U&T were taken away but after he repented they were given back to him. Can you imagine what would happen if someone unworthy looked into the Ark? The same is true with the U&T. The peep stone-- it couldn't hurt an unworthy flea. Therefore it held no special power.
Hey guys! I love your channel. 🙂 Can you do a video on the Jewish traditions mentioned in the Book of Mormon? I have a friend who has left the Church & she believes there are none.
@@rodneyjamesmcguire That would be an excellent claim… except for the fact that it is only now in our day that we have discovered that these things even exist at all Unless Joseph Smith had a time machine…
Steve...as complex and complicated as your life journey has been, Jesus has always been in front of you, two steps ahead. I for one am grateful that He raised you up (quite literally from depression) because you have brought me deeper understanding of our Lord's love. Peace 🙏
Totally agree that the naturalistic explanation and mechanics are far more fantastic, and require immense logical accommodations, than the supernatural explanation.
Also, was Joseph smart enough to use chiasmus in his translations of the BOM? The writing styles... Could he have pulled all that off (without divine intervention)?
48:00. Everything written in the Book of Mormon is written as a foreshadowing of what will come to the world in the latter days. The lead up to and including the destruction in 3rd Nephi is meant to warn ourselves of what the end times and second coming will look like. You can't read the Book of Mormon in isolation without seeing the messaging for ourselves.
1:02:16 is something I wish all Christians (including LDS) understood. Too many Christians dismiss the Book of Mormon because of its popular association with (and their prejudice against) the LDS church
What a refreshing take from Steve. I appreciate the intellectual honesty that being a Christian is more about following Christ rather than having a fully fleshed out theology, and also to see him take Joseph Smith seriously even as an outsider. I also love that he taught me a new word in “heterodox”. Lol.
I love your TH-cam channel! I really enjoy the different point of views into the Book of Mormon. As I was listening I was thinking about; isn't the point of translation is to take one language and translate it it into another language? So that would make sense that Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon into his language with the guidance of the Holy Ghost. Faith is so important to have in the Book of Mormon.
I read the Bible I Know that there is God and when I Read the Book of Mormon Feel that there is God and He Lives, this two Gospel proves Heavenly Father loves, Jesus Christ is God and the Holy Spirit is really with us guiding trough Christ like deeds and by the Grace and Mercy of the Lord, We will be with Our Loving Heavenly Father🙏God Bless and I Love You my Brothers and Sisters...
Whenever a group or people have descended to the point that agency is no longer able to be exercised due to their tyranny the purpose of mortality would be frustrated. I believe this is another factor why resets need to occur or the plan of salvation would lack efficacy. Therefore, justice has to be enacted or God would cease to be God because he would be allowing mercy to those that through their agency and determination to thwart Gods commands and harm his children there has to be a Godly vengeance enacted to satisfy the innocent that have been harmed. The idea of crying from the ground is the voice of those who have been subjected to such horror and violence a merciful God has to intervene.
Ok, here's a question I can't find an answer on. The BoM references brass plates being recovered while leaving Jerusalem, and references more brass plates being created after reaching the new world. However we know from history that brass was invented roughly 100 years after said journey and several thousand miles away from where it took place. How do you reconcile this?
@thestickofjoseph that depends upon your translation. However in Ivrit the word is הַנְּחֹ֜שֶׁת, which is bronze. Which fits with 1 kings 7 (I believe that's how it's divided in the Christian numbering) when Shlomo built the temple.
To clarify, I want to say as an outsider but one who's a religious history nerd I mean no disrespect with this line of questioning. Just looking for the perspective of a faithful LDS. History can't prove faith any more than science can. If it could it wouldn't be faith. As a Jew, for instance, I'm keenly aware there is virtually zero evidence a group that size was ever camped anywhere in the Sinai peninsula.
The Brass Plates were most likely actually bronze 🙂 Brass and Bronze were interchangeable terms in Joseph Smith’s day, and there are examples of bronze plates at Qumran
26:54 - What do you do with all of the quotes of Joseph's friends, family, skeptics, critics, and enemies saying he was essentially stupid in his intellect at the time of the writing of the BoM?
What, people never lie? He was not dumb, you have to be very creative and charismatic to make people believe you can see treasure underground that conveniently always slips away.
@hayden4 I don't have to read history like that, I only have to read Joseph's words to notice he was not dumb. If you want to make the book of mormon seem more miraculous then of course you would be motivated to say he was dumb and couldn't possibly had written it. Give brother Joe some credit, it takes intelligence to make up the book of abraham out whole cloth with hieroglyphics interpretation and all. 🤣🤣
I love you Guys, but I cringe when you say the book of Mormon was translated via a Seer stone inside a hat. I've taken an image of a magician pulling a rabbit out of a top hat, and replaced the rabbit with a book of Mormon with Joseph Smith's face on the Magician. Not to mock Joseph but to mock the theory of the Seer stone translation method. It'd be great if you guys interview Hannah Stoddard with regards to the translation method of the Book of Mormon. I'm from the old school. th-cam.com/video/QO0EHLQFuC4/w-d-xo.html
Stephen, you have done such a great job in your research, I believe you have been very fair with our LDS beliefs. And what I appreciate about you is that you have gone through the Journey with Christ and He has shown you how to connect your mind and your heart together to help you to be humble, teachable and workable with Him in your Life Journey. Thank you for sharing your testimony of Jesus Christ. I think that instead of Jeff McCullough being the one to do an Evangelical commentary on the Book of Mormon, I think that you should be the one to do the Evangelical commentary! I think you would really be fair and because you have both put your head knowledge and your heart knowledge together, I think you would do a great job! Think about it, please!
When I ponder all that our Prophet Joseph Smith suffered from a young boy to his martyrdom, to manify his priesthood and fulfull his mission to translate the Book of Mormon I weep.
How does the naturalistic argument account for the complexities of the text like say Jacob 5? Or 2 Nephi on the doctrine of man's agency?....what about the testimony of the 3 witnesses? None of them ever denied their testimony even after they left the church..🤔
1Cor 1:25 Our own reasoning and understanding are foolishness unto God. That is why God had chosen an unlearned man, even Joseph Smith to confound the learned and the wise. 1Cor 1:27. JSmith could had done nothing without God. It is humbling and inspiring to know that he translated the Book of Mormon by the gift and power of God.
As LDS missionaries, we were instructed to teach Joseph translated from the golden plates. Today, missionaries have to teach Joseph put his face in a hat to translate off a peep stone. The latter story would be harder to teach and more difficult to believe. That is why church leaders avoided telling the rock in a hat account until they were forced to do so.
Oh, my word, the devil's account of the peep stone goes completely counter to what the Lord said in the Doctrine and Covenants, as well as what Joseph and Oliver continually said -- the B of M was translated by the Urim and Thumin. Sticking one's head in a hat is not a translation-- but a dictation. Why then were the plates so important is Joseph could stick his head in a hat using an ordinary stone, and why did the Lord tell Joseph to not show the Urim and Thumim to anyone and why did the Lord take away the Urim and Thumim when the 116 pages were lost. And why didn't the Lord take away the peep stone if it was a tool of translation? Because it wasn't? This whole peep stone hypothesis is making the Lord weary and Joseph and Oliver are rolling over in their graves.
Why is a church "instructing teaching" ?? That's called PROGRAMMING In biblical terms that's called building a demonic STRONGHOLD IN THE MIND Which is aka WITCH CRAFT
@@MRRANDOMZ11 I don't hide anything, so I don't know what you mean by "true colors". A bit of an Ad Hominin, I'd say. I'm no longer LDS because the foundational truth claims aren't true. I used to say exactly the same thing as you, regarding the Holy Ghost.
In my humble opinion, It is an obvious fake. There's not archeologist (well maybe at BYU) alive that confirms it. So please let's get past it as a 'literal' translation. If you want to say much of it is analogy and symbolism then that is a great topic. Anyways I just appreciate this guy putting out content and letting people comment/debate/put in their two cents like me.
Do a double interview with Pastor Jeff from Hello Saints and Steven Pynakker. They have similar view but I feel they could teach and learn from each other.
OK, I watched your introduction… And you lost me when you said Joseph Smith translated with his head in a hat… That story is a falsehood that originated from a guy who was excommunicated from the church in 1834 and wrote a book called "Mormonism unveiled" The Joseph Smith foundation has done a lot of research on this, and have been able to substantiate that a hat and a stone were not used in the translation of the book of Mormon. It was simply the gold plates in the euram and thummim, just like anciently in the old testament . I agree Joseph Smith did have a Cedarstone bit so did hundreds and thousands of Americans back in those days because they were all out plundering the burial sites of the ancient inhabitants of America I think it's a blatant falsehood that Joseph Smith used a hat and a stone to translate the Book of Mormon and it just doesn't make any sense and it really throws her whole presentation off I might be wrong because I haven't listened through the whole thing, but that's my first impression out of the gate Roger Preble, defender of the faith
@rogerpreble440 I was putting forward the idea he was presenting and showing that even if it were true it is more fantastical than the idea that he saw God and an angel and translated the record by the gift and power of God. You should watch the whole video if you want to have proper context.
The term "Evangelical Christian" almost has no meaning left anymore. It can be applied to almost anyone who appears to be conservative, bible only, Republican, and so forth. Evangelicals know little about the Bible, church history, or theology/philosophy. A more descriptive classification system of Christianity would be Catholic, Orthodox, historic Protestant, fundamentalist, and cultic. The LDS Church falls into the last category because it rejects the creedal affirmations of historic catholic Christianity. The so-called "Second Great Awakening" of the early 19th century around the time of Joseph Smith was a distinctively "Protestant" religious renewal. It is hailed as a "great move of the Holy Spirit" but this is pure conjecture. It was also fanatical, schismatic, and subjective in temper. Neither the Catholic or Orthodox churches recognize this religious movement as anything but a "revival" of religious sensationalism. Other historic Protestant denominations also rejected this movement. Joseph Smith lived in a time of religious confusion and fanaticism.
Chaiasmus, misspelled, Im sure. If Joseph imagined and just created this in his own mind it could not stand up to the scrutiny especially when considering Chaismus
You boys need to reach out to Brian Stubbs, a retired linguist (scientist of language) and professor at Utah state University that has 30+ years experience studying the relationships of the language patterns found in the book of Mormon and relating it to ancient Hebrew/ Egyptian language. It is no coincidence that Joseph worded the translation the way he did.
I think Joseph received the Baptism of Fire and the Holy Ghost, which gave him the knowledge of heavenly mysteries, giving the appearance of religious genius. Intelligence from early schooling or understandings of men, not so much. Emma said he could not write an intelligible sentence, on his own.
@edwarddiviney5226 Being intelligent is different than being educated. I think it is clear that his intuitive ability to reason was incredible even if his practical skills of writing, arithmetic, etc. were not
He didn't write it, he dictated it. It's hard to overstate how different a skill that is, and that he obviously was gifted at it. Even his mother attested to that fact.
Wow, what a cool guy. He's very respectful. This is how you have a interfaith dialogue with people. I've seen some where it's just attack them attack them and make them look bad, like it's a setup, but this guy knows exactly what they're discussing, and he's very respectful. Because we can't bear false witness, there is the part of you that sees Christianity crumbling and wonder if dipping into the Latter-Day Saint pie gets Latter-day Saints dropping into your collection plate, like Patreon is the new collection plate, only by appealing to Latter-Day Saints that aren't really putting money into a collection plate, now they are, ya know? Part of you wonders if it's the new tactic to sell religion to the Mormons so, I'd be lying if I said that hadn't crossed my mind, but this guy seems genuine and you have to acknowledge and give the guy credit for being very respectful versus those that fear Latter-Day Saints and, oh wow, if you hear them talk, it's nasty, so thank you for being a respectful man, and really, on both sides, for not the two brothers not cornering the guy with a bunch of accusations. It's showing that there's a turning happening where people are having civil dialogue without feeling threatened
Steven is taking a very ignorant view of the motivations of Joseph Smith, saying that he was a kingdom builder and a treasure hunter from an early age. That is the same as saying that Mormons aren't Christians, with no debate. For studying as much as Steven says he has about Joseph Smith, he is dismissing a massive amount of written history by multiple sources that show that he was employed by other landowners in his younger years who employed him to search for treasure on their land. Steven makes it sound like treasure hunting was all Joseph's idea and was an overall pattern that carried through his whole life. This treasure hunting episode in Joseph's life was for a very short time in his teens before he was married to Emma. He and his brothers hired themselves out as laborers as was common to help people with their farms. It is a cheap shot and way too shallow of a conclusion for a serious conversation about Joseph's early life. From this, Steven implies that his pattern of employment was evidence of Joseph's corrupt nature which brought about Joseph's writing of the Book of Mormon to scam the world. How disappointing!
I'd like to point out that over the last 6 months or so, I've been digging into 1 Corrinthians 15, and I've met a lot of people that have lost someone to death, and I ask them: Are you a believer in God? I then recommend 1 Corrinthians 15 BECAUSE are you distraught about losing your loved one and wondering if you're ever going to see them again? And then it helps them feel better, because what is Paul explaining to the Saints at Corrinth, right? He's explaining the ressurection to a bunch of converts that converted from Pagan backgrounds thats where they came from and they're baptising the dead. Evangelicals love to argue this and say that it's the Pagans that have whipped out the old tradition and you might actually believe it, until you have a conversation with a Pagan and then that argument is flipped upside down. So, what is happening there? Paul has come to the saints at Corrinth THAT ARE falling back into old traditions, as the Book of Mormon says they're, in essence, murmmuring against what they've been asked to do. It's NOT Paul asking why theyre baptising their dead, he's NOT, it's the Pagan to Christian converts asking why they've been asked by the Church to do this. I have friends that are two different sects of Paganism. One subscribes to Gia (sorry on the spelling) or mother earth that rules life and gives life to all things and when you die to return to her. He believes that magic or energy allows for magical and mystical things to be performed by someone who is willing to learn to channel this energy, but it's not used to curse anybody, it's used for good, but nobody is taught Christ-like love, it's every man for himself, but you're nice because it's the thing to do, but you're not loved less by Mother Earth because you're not, right? The second group I have friends to is the huge rise is Norse-Pagan with Odin and Valhalla. That you die gloriously and dine in Valhalla and hope to eventually make it to the presence of Odin. Ask either side if they believe in a resurrection or reuniting of the body and the spirit and they'll both tell you NO, THE BODY IS DEAD. Ask either of them if saving or reviving the dead is a thing, and they'll tell you NO. Was there ever a practice of dunking the body for saving purposes and they'll say you're crazy because they don't believe in baptism, period, or saving grace of any kind, so why are you asking me about baptism, no. The Jews and Muslims obviously don't believe in baptism and redeeming their dead so...... What happened in 1 Corrinthians then, if you talk with a Pagan or any background, they'll tell you that's absurd, because they don't believe in a resurrection, they believe you die and your body is gone, you go to mother earth or you head off to Valhalla and then on from there. So, what does that mean for Paul? That means that Paul is teaching the newly converted Saints that they're conducting a saving ordinance for those that didn't have an opportunity to accept the gospel in this life because God is just, but Jesus has now introduced mercy, so Paul is telling them: You're now doing baptisms in proxy of your deceased loved ones because there is a resurrection of the body. You're reverting back to your own ways of thinking that the body dies and returns to the earth and it's energy, forget that, you've accepted Jesus Christ and have a faith in him that your body and spirit will one day be reunited and Jesus taught that "except a man be born of the water and of the spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven." Paul is telling them that because God is no respecter of persons, and loves all his children, that's why they're doing this ordinance. It's not Paul rebuking the practice of baptism for the dead, he's rebuking them for fighting against the ordinance because they're reverting back to their Paganistic views of There is no resurrection so doing this is pointless and they're grumbling over it, but it's the opposite. Paul is saying they NEED to be getting this work done because Jesus was ressurected, that changed the rules of the game now, so you're now redeeming the dead, A CHRISTIAN PRACTICE not a Pagan. My Pagan buddies, we have a mutual respect because we're life long friends, but the ideas that: A) There's a ressurection of the Dead is preposterous, B) They believe in redemption of the Dead is preposterous and 3) That they baptize at all, let alone the idea of dunking a dead body or proxy baptisms is non-sense and we'd agree to disagree so, there you have it You're not going to learn that if you're too scared to engage with a Pagan and only want to converse with fellow Christians. A Evangelical Minister doesn't want to talk to a Pagan because they're talking to the devil, it's pointless, but a Christian can and will if they're life-long friends with someone that is a practicing Pagan. Is that person bad or evil? HECK NO! My buddies are very service oriented, they have a good heart to do good for others. If you disrespect them are they gonna treat you different than a Christian? Are they gonna be so ever forgiving? HECK NO! THEY'RE GONNA BE BUTT-HURT! and it's gonna take some time to heal from that disrespect, but they're going to treat you with immense respect if you extend that to them and you're going to find an extremely kind person that just believes in diety different than you do, but they're not a bad or evil person, so how would an Evangelical Pastor know any of that, unless you go to the source and ask the source directly. This is why open dialogue, such as represented and demonstrated here is so important, it breaks down barriers and gives us a new perspective on things, so, how do you argue that?
Joseph Fielding Smith taught that exaltation was the ultimate goal for every Latter Day Saint and yet this concept is nowhere to be found in the Book of Mormon
I have to call out the counter at 1:03:26. The spirit tells me that is one of two things: 1. A missed opportunity to bare witness of not just a "cool experience", but a powerful experience with the power of God; or 2. A soft way to imply that we need to build up a church of the world known as the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. Either way, I believe repentance is needed. Please pray to know how the Lord would have you repent of whatever happened here. If neither are correct, then please help me understand the motive to counter here rather than disconnect the Book of Mormon from a mortal man. Are we to glorify Joseph, or are we to tie things to Joseph that were never his and claim it godly? I think there does need to be a disconnect. Joseph NEVER published the book in the name of the church for a reason. We can speculate, but just as was mentioned earlier, the Book of Mormon doesn't lead people to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints anymore than the Bible leads people to the Roman Catholic church.
@@aprilpark7223 Yes they do. He was proved that he was a treasure digger. Research outside what the church wants you to know. It took me a while to see that the Jehovah’s Witnesses were wrong until I read outside information about them. Because the inside is only going to reveal so much.
@@Sirach144I love truth in all forms, but I’m not into people condemning them because you were taught to. You’ve probably never read anything Joesph Smith himself ever wrote, but instead rely on his enemies to tell you who he was, So either produce you proof or remain silent. He was taken to court many times and never convicted of anything.
@@aprilpark7223 Condemning? You stated the claim that he didn’t treasure dig. Court documents show that he did, which makes your claim false. Nothing condemning. Just all FACTS *THE PEOPLE VS JOSEPH SMITH.* This provides a glimpse into into Joseph Smith’s involvement with treasure digging, one of the most fascinating periods in early Mormon history. Referred to as “The Glass Looker,” Joseph Smith Jr. was the subject of a pre-trial investigation on March 20, 1826. Of this period, BYU historian Marvin Hill observed: “Most historians, Mormon or not, who work with the sources, accept as fact Smith’s career as village magician. Too many of his closest friends and family admitted as much, and some of Smith’s own revelations support the contention.” [16] While granting Smith the benefit of every doubt with its kid gloves treatment, the LDS Church itself similarly confirms Joseph’s involvement in treasure digging, and resulting arrest, in Joseph Smith’s 1826 Trial. [17] Smith was arrested for disturbing the peace, a charge commonly used for charlatans and tricksters, and according to the Vagrant Act of New York included those “pretending to tell fortunes, or to discover where lost goods may be found.” Referred to as “The Glass Looker” in court documents, Joseph openly admitted to indulging in magic arts and organizing hunts for buried gold. New York law provided punishment for disorderly persons, whose definition included jugglers (conjurors), diviners, and those pretending to have skill in discovering lost goods. The charge aligns with uncle Jesse Smith’s description of Joseph: “He says he has eyes to see things that are not, and then has the audacity to say they are, and that the angel of the Lord . . . has put him in possession of great wealth, gold, silver, precious stones.” [18] Given that no treasure ever materialized, Stowell’s nephew, Peter Bridgeman took legal action after he became sufficiently concerned over Smith’s unfulfilled promises, ever-increasing requests for money and complaints about treasure slipping away at the slightest infraction. In his complaint, he wrote: “Mr. Stowell is represented as being not a very bright man, but he had saved considerable money for those times, and Joe Smith managed to get and spend most of it.” [19]
Just ignore all the anachronisms, Protestant ideas, 19th century writing style, Joseph Smith Sr’s tree of life vision, descriptions of freemasonry, themes and phrasing borrowed from well known 19th century works, NT passages, King James translation errors, and even then you still have nothing to prove the Book of Mormon is ancient given zero trace of BofM archaeology/language/religion in the Western Hemisphere. This is why mormons dishonestly describe the translation process itself as an impossible feat. Sad!
I am always puzzled why Evangelicals dismiss the teaching of Theosis ( that we can become like God) when many early Christian fathers believed it. Theosis is the understanding that human beings can have real union with God, and so become like God to such a degree that we participate in the divine nature. Justin Martyr lived (100-165) insisted that in the beginning men "were made like God, free from suffering and death," and that they are thus "deemed worthy of becoming gods and of having power to become sons of the highest." In the second century, Irenaeus, bishop of Lyons (c. 130-202) said “Christ, because of love, became what we are, that He might bring us to be even what He is Himself." Or “If the Word is made man, it is that man might become gods.” At about the same time, Clement of Alexandria (c. 150-215), wrote: "Yea, I say, the Word of God became a man so that you might learn from a man how to become a god." St. Athanasius: who died in 273 AD said “God became man so that men might become gods” 670?AD John of Damascus taught that Christ’s redemptive work enables the image of God to be restored in us so that we become “partakers of divinity.” Even more recently C. S. Lewis understood this concept and expressed it compellingly in Mere Christianity: The command “Be ye perfect” is not idealistic gas. Nor is it a command to do the impossible. He is going to make us into creatures that can obey that command. He said (in the Bible) that we were “gods” and He is going to make good His words. If we let Him-for we can prevent Him, if we choose-He will make the feeblest and filthiest of us into a god or goddess, dazzling, radiant, immortal creatures, pulsating all through with such energy and joy and wisdom and love as we cannot now imagine, a bright stainless mirror which reflects back to Him perfectly (though, of course, on a smaller scale) His own boundless power and delight and goodness. The process will be long and in parts very painful; but that is what we are in for. Nothing less. He meant what he said. (Macmillan, 1952, p. 174)
1) Joseph Smith claimed to have come up with the idea for the Book of Mormon the VERY SAME YEAR (1823) that “View of the Hebrews” was first published. Coincidence? 2) Mormon General Authority and historian B.H. Roberts wrote hundreds of pages doing research on the disturbing similarities between View of the Hebrews and the Book of Mormon. Later, B.H. Roberts went on to lose his testimony in the historicity of the Book of Mormon. Coincidence?
Good, pickup. Those lamp should have been behind the cameras, not Infront of them. It's like looking into the Sun when you focus your eyes on the lamps.
Love Steven Pynakker, but his explanation of how the Book of Mormon came to be is preposterous. Any explanation that includes Joseph Smith being a ‘genius’ or ‘really creative’ just demonstrates that you haven’t read it closely imo. The book was written by Israelites who knew the scriptures intimately and over hundreds of years.
😂😂😂😂 it's easier to con people than to convince them they have been conned. Tell me a great theological innovation of the book of mormon that is based in antiquity.
Non-active Mormon here. I grew up Mormon. My family is all active. I served a mission in the south and was exposed to constant attacks by other Christians. I came across numerous sources of anti-Mormon literature. I was married in the temple. I’m a descendent of Brigham Young. It wasn’t until i truly started looking into the church’s history, in particular Joseph Smith, the BoM, the PofGP, Brigham Young, and other early leaders that the truth was slowly revealed. Factual, there is ZERO evidence that supports the BoM. There is no DNA, archeological, anthropological, or linguistic evidence of the BoM. The PofGP is a complete fraud. JS, as a prophet and seer translated this before the rosetta stone and egyptology could challenge that. See the 1912 New York Times article about it. I was destroyed to learn that JS had up to 30 wives BEFORE the DC 132 revelation. That early leaders still practiced it even though they were lying to the US government saying they abolished the practiced. JS practiced polygamy and polyandry. Learning the JS practiced folk magic, divining using a seer stone, treasure hunting, and that he never discovered any treasure yet he regularly charged people for his divining, was also eye opening. There are so many issues with the BoM, how it was translated, and JS’s life that they are too numerous to list here. All that being said, I believe the church, generally speaking, is a net positive and teaches meta truths. I simply wish they would be honest and transparent with their history.
The whole head in a hat thing is not how it was translated. It’s how he explained what it was like since he couldn’t use the actual items to demonstrate.
I strongly encourage you to read By Means of the Urim and Thummim by Jonathan Neville. It is essential reading when it comes to understanding the translation process.
I was also a bit surprised that he hasn't read the book cover to cover. I wrote Steven a letter relating how it was a man (a protestor) outside the conference center that confronted me before my mission and--on finding out that I would be leaving on a mission soon--asked if I had read the Bible. He challenged me to read it and I managed to get that done before leaving. That was something that I made sure my sons did before they left on their missions. I have now read the Bible many times cover to cover and will forever be grateful to that person that confronted me. Steven needs to do the same! Until you have read the Book of Mormon cover to cover, you cannot appreciate its complexity and intricacy. In my mind, it is the very least you can do before proceeding any further in an investigation. I have had some interaction with him in the past and have always found him very friendly and reasonable. I hope that he will see this comment and take it as a challenge.
Will do!
Jonathan Neville has presented the most comprehensive, common-sense, and intellectual explanation. So many Mormon academic apologists with those degrees of higher education, miss the mark entirely.
The BoM is very easy to dismiss. Even after a casual reading. Most people, even believing “Mormons”, have not done enough study to even glimpse how absolutely miraculous and astounding it is. There are layers upon layers of complexity that you can only witness for yourself, you can’t be told about it. The more I study it, the more astonished I am. 🙏
It's interesting how people can reach completely different views on exactly the same thing.
The more I study The Book of Mormon, the more glaringly obvious it is a work of fiction. It doesn't get better with study, it gets worse.
Interesting how that can be.
@@rodneyjamesmcguire That is interesting. You are either being intellectually dishonest or just ignorant.
Agreed! I read it daily and I'm increasingly convinced that it can only be from God. It is extremely complex and symbolic as well as practical and applicable. It is an incredible, marvelous work and a wonder!
@@rodneyjamesmcguirecognitive bias is a wonderful thing
@@vendingdudes That's a term that's way over used, especially when ascribing it to others.
I think you mean Confirmation Bias, or Cognitive Dissonance?
Steven your willingness to let the Lord break and rebuild you is a testament that you are His. I got goose bumps listening to your final words here and am convinced that you are a major player in the gathering of Israel before the great and terrible day of the Lord. One of the greatest quotes of The Chosen was when one of the disciples of Jesus asked him about all the different beliefs of those gathering. Jesus said let's just gather them together and we'll sort it out later. I believe in that day every one of us will need to be corrected in one way or another. We only condemn ourselves if we don't recognize Him when he comes.
Speaking to his former depression, we LOVE YOU Steven Pynakker. So grateful you're with us as an Evangelical who make us LDS people think about who we are. You've made a safer place for us in the Evangelical community, and so grateful you're here with us.
Thanks for interviewing Steven! I've listened to and enjoyed many of his videos/interviews on his MBR channel. This is the best 'heart to heart' discussion I've seen with him so far. I now have a better idea of exactly where he is coming from, and as always, have a great deal of respect for him and what he is doing.
Loved this episode guys, Steve is great. I love his epistemic humility, him taking the Book of Mormon seriously and his testimony of Jesus.
I enjoyed this discussion. I love talking bout the Book of Mormon
Love your channel
Great interview. Love Steve’s intellectual honesty and willingness to be open minded. Rare to see this.
I am a lifelong member of the church of Jesus Christ and I appreciate and love Steven's testimony.
Totally! And he is such a sweetheart! Love him.
That may be the official name of your church, but it's not Jesus' church.
@@dr33776 everything is Jesus's. There's only one Jesus.
This was such a beautiful conversation. I loved it so much. Thank you to all of you. Felt
Not only was Joseph Smith a prophet of God, he died a righteous man. How do I know? I’ve had several, personal spiritual revelations that have confirmed this to me. We can come up with all kinds of scenarios, but the bottom line is that the only way we can know the truth is if we sincerely ask God.
I know a handful of people who bear the exact same testimony of Warren Jeff’s. I’m curious to hear what makes your testimony more valid than theirs?
@@TwoTreesVisuals Well, if I ever meet any, I’ll ask them for their personal testimony, and then I will be in a better place to discern. Until then, I’ll go with the light and truth the Lord has given ME.
Joseph was a con man and it's obvious that he has completely conned you 🤪
@latter-daysaintchristian4134 Hi👋🏼. I am FLDS. Very hesitant to put myself out there because I'm an introvert, and not real good with words. Also I value peace very highly and hate confrontation of any kind.🕊🤗 Still, if an honest-hearted person (which you seem to be) has a question I will do my best, with the help of God, to answer as appropriate.😊
@@savannabarlow8197 Savanna are you saying you're a part of the Warren Jeffs FLDS? Like he's the prophet? If so can you share why you believe in him or what feelings you had that made you believe? I'm genuinely curious about this.
I love this Steve guy. Thanks for the intro to him. He is fascinating to listen too. I like the way his brain processes. We need him here. ❤️ keep chatting & sharing, only love.
I loved hearing Steven's testimony. I've been a follower of his for awhile. What a great guy. I love his humility and his eagerness to study and learn. I've just recently found the Stick of Joseph TH-cam and am loving everything I've seen and listened to. You brothers inspire me greatly. Hope all three of you keep your TH-cam podcasts going and bringing people to Jesus. One thing I love is how I feel challenged to study, ponder, and pray more - I want to follow your examples.
Joseph Smith was not a genius. He was and is a Prophet of God. A Prophet, Seer and Revelator. No prophets are perfect. The Book of Mormon is a fascinating complex book of scripture. If you read it with an open mind you can see how it relates to what's happening in our world today. I love the Bible and the Book of Mormon. Love this discussion.
He was a genius in multiple disciplines. He can be both!
@@m.r.p5674 I respect your opinion, but I see no evidence of Joseph Smith being a genius. Can you give me an example?
@@dwRS1Exactly this genuis stuff is a cop out of not believing that he was Exactly what God made him to be a Prophet seer and revelator
@@dwRS1 see Book of Mormon as example #1
God didn't tell Joseph Smith to commit adultery with 14 year olds, and women married to other men. He was listening to a demonic spirit. WAKE UP and turn to the true God of the bible!
Best interview with Steven Pynakker I've seen. Thanks for asking him great questions
Glad you liked it! It was a fun one!
I’m here because you guys were on the Ward Radio show; and I think it’s awesome what you guys are doing I’m totally here for it.
Thanks, man! We are glad to have you!
This was an excellent interview! Thank you guys for having this good, Evangelical brother who is very fair-minded, on your podcast! I think this helps all of us to see into one another's hearts. Because truly, at the end of the day the whole main focus and purpose of Our Lives is to love our Savior Jesus Christ, our Heavenly Father and to love one another and respect each other. All three of you did a really good job! God Bless you ALL!
Please do a live reading of the Book of Mormon. Not sure why this hasn’t been done before. Someone needs to do this every year on TH-cam.
interesting idea!
Hello Saints was supposed to do this but he’s just picking verses and commenting. I would love to see someone do this on TH-cam without any commentary, just read it and let people decide.
An athiest did it while getting drunk. It was pretty dismal.
@@ryanspackman548Atheism is toxic.
@@james8996Interestingly, it seems you want to know about everything in detail. Bro, there's nothing like that. Much of eternal truths are learnt and taught by the Spirit. It's just like asking if is Jesus the Christ. How did you ever know if the man Jesus was the long prophecies Christ, if not you were told by Bible prophets or apostles? The same is true with the Book of Mormon. It can only be recorded by a Prophet. It's only a perverted generation that wants a sign to every truth.
Steven, personally, I am glad you are not a member of the LDS faith. Don't get me wrong, I would love for you to have those blessings. I think there is a different voice you have from outside the faith that is valuable. I have commented on your channel about Col. Kane, and how important he was to the early church while not being a member. I think there are many "friends" of the faith that can play important roles in helping there be understanding. That has a unique value of its own.
Based on Steven’s TH-cam content it’s with almost perfect knowledge and some faith, I know, Steven does not have an agenda. He’s a an expert voice about Stick of Joseph Christianity.
Great guest choice.
I like the moldable clay analogy. I think that staying curious and open minded will keep our hearts and minds soft enough for truth and light to enter in regardless of its source. Once we become ridged in the things we believe that’s when we stop learning.
This was a great conversation. So grateful for this kind of content.
Love Steven Pynakker.
Thank you for bringing Steven on your show. A great discussion. We all believe in Jesus Christ and what He did for us. We have much in common. We can do great things together:-)
Love Steven Pynakler testimony of Jesus Christ at the end
Me too! it was powerful,
I interview lots of faithful scholars and I've done research on the book of Mormon and evidences for it. I'd be happy to engage with you guys and share my concluding thoughts on the book of Mormon.
I would for sure watch that!
@mormonismwithmurph shoot us an email hayden@thestickofjoseph.com
I'm an Orthodox Christian and I'm studying Theology and Religion at Uni in England, it is pretty refreshing to see more Mormons doing content on apologetics and theological work and challenging misconceptions in depth instead of brief explantations without depth, Latter day saints really need to get to the books and show other Christians the nitty gritty of doctrinal belief.
Thanks for watching, brother! I hope you stick around.
I've heard of pastors giving long sermons using basic cue cards, but I've never heard one using a chiasmus structure as in Alma 36, formulating multi-story threads together into a cohesive narrative similar to Mosiah, or quoting pages of Isaiah nearly verbatim from memory, making slight textual changes to match the Greek Septuagint.
That's just getting started.
Real
Steve is a cool dude! Love who he is. Bringing peace Steve, thx. So many just don’t have the stability you have
At 0:43 add to that question the maps or descriptions of the land without making a mistake. That he is nodding in belief makes me aware that mankind has arrived to that point where "we must deny the sun when it is shining in broad day light". Amazing.
I hope Steven reads the Book of Mormon and realizes what a beautiful second witness of our Jesus Christ. ☀️💕
The Book of Mormon doesn’t support Mormonism.
The bible doesnt support evangelicalism@@Sirach144
Excellent video! I love the Book of Mormon! It is for all the world! I love your podcasts! Thanks for all you do!
How do Protestants simultaneously claim that the Bible is 100% the word of God but then say that the God of the Old Testament is different from Christ and that Christ wouldn’t do those types of destructions?
That is a very good point, thanks for sharing!
I'm Protestant. I'm not understanding the point you are making. Is it related to something said in the video?
@@thestickofjoseph
God didn’t change. His covenants did.
Well done!
"Directed by the hand of God, with human fingerprints all over it." Wow!!! What a concept! I've never thought of that. Thx.
I personally knew Richard Baer who helped produce and act in "the godmakers" in animation. I remember his license plate was XMORMON. He was extremely bitter because he was ostracized by his wife and kids for leaving the church. Baer started a local Xmormon ministry, but upset his staff and chief assistant Ken McClatchy. This lead to Ken and others leaving the ministry entirely.
👏👏👏👏👏I needed this episode. so many gems. must watch youtube!
This was a wonderful interview. Love Steven Pinegar's work.
I love Steve's point that so many take scripture too literally.
Joseph actually looked at the Plates when translating, trying to discern the meaning of the characters, and looked through the clear crystal stones (the interpreters touched by God) to gain the meaning of those characters. The translated text is in Joseph's words. It is a translation -- not a peep stone in a hat dictation. The stone in the hat story came from the Whitmer home when many in the household earnestly asked Joseph to show how the translation occurred. He then put a stone in the hat and put his head down and began quoting Isaiah. Those observing thought he was translating. Joseph had a photographic memory.
President Nelson even presents the hat theory in his interview in Palmyra. Whether it was the brown stone in a hat or the clear stone from the breastplate, it is the same process - seer, revelator. But the Book is true and theres no way he wrote it.
@@Stevemotzkus Yes, but there is no evidence to support that story being anything but a Demonstration, which some of the observers such as David Whitmer and others in the house, may have thought Joseph was translating. The primary parties in the Translation -- Jesus Christ, Joseph Smith, and Oliver Cowdery have been consistent in stating that the Book of Mormon in its entirety was translated through the Urim and Thumim, the two clear stones provided by God, touched by God, to translate sacred texts and magnify the user's mind. The medium through which we communicate in the Spirit realm is not through words and the U & T were prepared and infused with the Heavenly Technology by God. The pretty unusual stone Joseph collected from digging a well was just that, a very interesting stone that Joseph used in a demonstration at the Whitmer home. It was not touched by God. If fact, to try and use it as a peep stone is a practice "not of God" but part of what could be considered witchcraft. Believe the primary participants, not the well-meaning "witnesses" of the demonstration who related what they saw downstairs in the Whitmer home as a "translation" event. Remember, the actual translation occurred upstairs.
That sounds good
@@Stevemotzkus The big difference is the brown & black stone was not imbued with spiritual technology and prepared by God. The Urim and Thumim were.
@@jasontucker3295 The Lights and Perfections (Urim & Thumim) were clear stones designed by God, similar to our cell phones but with higher spiritual technology. The person looking into them had to be prepared through diligent study and worthiness (lest one look upon them and parish). When Joseph lost the 116 pages it was due to sin and the U&T were taken away but after he repented they were given back to him. Can you imagine what would happen if someone unworthy looked into the Ark? The same is true with the U&T. The peep stone-- it couldn't hurt an unworthy flea. Therefore it held no special power.
Community of christ members hear, the book of mormon is my favorite set of scriptures.
Great interview.
Hey guys! I love your channel. 🙂 Can you do a video on the Jewish traditions mentioned in the Book of Mormon? I have a friend who has left the Church & she believes there are none.
Yes, that is a great idea!
@@thestickofjoseph Please have a Jewish expert point them out. What would be REALLY cool would be a non-LDS Jewish expert, who is Jewish.
Just like Christ is found on almost every page, the ancient Hebrew/Jewish things are too!!
@@brendamartin3444 What we would expect when copying prose style / text / etc., from the Bible, which we know he did.
@@rodneyjamesmcguire
That would be an excellent claim… except for the fact that it is only now in our day that we have discovered that these things even exist at all
Unless Joseph Smith had a time machine…
Steve...as complex and complicated as your life journey has been, Jesus has always been in front of you, two steps ahead. I for one am grateful that He raised you up (quite literally from depression) because you have brought me deeper understanding of our Lord's love. Peace 🙏
This is a great interview!! 👏👏👏👏
Totally agree that the naturalistic explanation and mechanics are far more fantastic, and require immense logical accommodations, than the supernatural explanation.
Also, was Joseph smart enough to use chiasmus in his translations of the BOM? The writing styles... Could he have pulled all that off (without divine intervention)?
He could have bit it would have taken him multiple years with a ton of help but it only took him 65 days
1:04:48 Imagine a world where Steven and David Alexander meet.
He's coming to the US next month. It could happen
Oh what fun!
48:00. Everything written in the Book of Mormon is written as a foreshadowing of what will come to the world in the latter days. The lead up to and including the destruction in 3rd Nephi is meant to warn ourselves of what the end times and second coming will look like. You can't read the Book of Mormon in isolation without seeing the messaging for ourselves.
1:02:16 is something I wish all Christians (including LDS) understood. Too many Christians dismiss the Book of Mormon because of its popular association with (and their prejudice against) the LDS church
43:15 tell this information to Pastor Jeff from Hello Saints. He had questions and made statements about this. This is a great way to look at it.
What a refreshing take from Steve. I appreciate the intellectual honesty that being a Christian is more about following Christ rather than having a fully fleshed out theology, and also to see him take Joseph Smith seriously even as an outsider. I also love that he taught me a new word in “heterodox”. Lol.
You guys have the best guests!
Great episode!
Steven is a very rare type of person. It was very interesting to listen to him
I love your TH-cam channel! I really enjoy the different point of views into the Book of Mormon. As I was listening I was thinking about; isn't the point of translation is to take one language and translate it it into another language? So that would make sense that Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon into his language with the guidance of the Holy Ghost. Faith is so important to have in the Book of Mormon.
Thank you for watching! We are so happy to have you.
I read the Bible I Know that there is God and when I Read the Book of Mormon Feel that there is God and He Lives, this two Gospel proves Heavenly Father loves, Jesus Christ is God and the Holy Spirit is really with us guiding trough Christ like deeds and by the Grace and Mercy of the Lord, We will be with Our Loving Heavenly Father🙏God Bless and I Love You my Brothers and Sisters...
Whenever a group or people have descended to the point that agency is no longer able to be exercised due to their tyranny the purpose of mortality would be frustrated. I believe this is another factor why resets need to occur or the plan of salvation would lack efficacy. Therefore, justice has to be enacted or God would cease to be God because he would be allowing mercy to those that through their agency and determination to thwart Gods commands and harm his children there has to be a Godly vengeance enacted to satisfy the innocent that have been harmed. The idea of crying from the ground is the voice of those who have been subjected to such horror and violence a merciful God has to intervene.
@daleclark7127 Beautifully put! You should be a writer.
@@thestickofjoseph That was kind. Thanks! Great work you guys do!!!!
Ok, here's a question I can't find an answer on. The BoM references brass plates being recovered while leaving Jerusalem, and references more brass plates being created after reaching the new world. However we know from history that brass was invented roughly 100 years after said journey and several thousand miles away from where it took place. How do you reconcile this?
2 Kings 25 speaks of the very destruction of Jerusalem Lehi prophesied. How many times does it mention Brass in this chapter?
@thestickofjoseph that depends upon your translation. However in Ivrit the word is הַנְּחֹ֜שֶׁת, which is bronze. Which fits with 1 kings 7 (I believe that's how it's divided in the Christian numbering) when Shlomo built the temple.
To clarify, I want to say as an outsider but one who's a religious history nerd I mean no disrespect with this line of questioning. Just looking for the perspective of a faithful LDS.
History can't prove faith any more than science can. If it could it wouldn't be faith. As a Jew, for instance, I'm keenly aware there is virtually zero evidence a group that size was ever camped anywhere in the Sinai peninsula.
The Brass Plates were most likely actually bronze 🙂 Brass and Bronze were interchangeable terms in Joseph Smith’s day, and there are examples of bronze plates at Qumran
26:54 - What do you do with all of the quotes of Joseph's friends, family, skeptics, critics, and enemies saying he was essentially stupid in his intellect at the time of the writing of the BoM?
What, people never lie? He was not dumb, you have to be very creative and charismatic to make people believe you can see treasure underground that conveniently always slips away.
@@dr33776
You think his enemies lied about him being stupid? And his family? And his friends?
Surely you don’t read all history like this.
@hayden4 I don't have to read history like that, I only have to read Joseph's words to notice he was not dumb. If you want to make the book of mormon seem more miraculous then of course you would be motivated to say he was dumb and couldn't possibly had written it. Give brother Joe some credit, it takes intelligence to make up the book of abraham out whole cloth with hieroglyphics interpretation and all. 🤣🤣
@@dr33776 what pre-1829 source are you analyzing?
I love you Guys, but I cringe when you say the book of Mormon was translated via a Seer stone inside a hat. I've taken an image of a magician pulling a rabbit out of a top hat, and replaced the rabbit with a book of Mormon with Joseph Smith's face on the Magician. Not to mock Joseph but to mock the theory of the Seer stone translation method. It'd be great if you guys interview Hannah Stoddard with regards to the translation method of the Book of Mormon. I'm from the old school.
th-cam.com/video/QO0EHLQFuC4/w-d-xo.html
Stephen, you have done such a great job in your research, I believe you have been very fair with our LDS beliefs. And what I appreciate about you is that you have gone through the Journey with Christ and He has shown you how to connect your mind and your heart together to help you to be humble, teachable and workable with Him in your Life Journey. Thank you for sharing your testimony of Jesus Christ. I think that instead of Jeff McCullough being the one to do an Evangelical commentary on the Book of Mormon, I think that you should be the one to do the Evangelical commentary! I think you would really be fair and because you have both put your head knowledge and your heart knowledge together, I think you would do a great job! Think about it, please!
Great 👍 job guys, more please 😊
When I ponder all that our Prophet Joseph Smith suffered from a young boy to his martyrdom, to manify his priesthood and fulfull his mission to translate the Book of Mormon I weep.
How does the naturalistic argument account for the complexities of the text like say Jacob 5? Or 2 Nephi on the doctrine of man's agency?....what about the testimony of the 3 witnesses? None of them ever denied their testimony even after they left the church..🤔
It’s not complex. Grafting in olive trees comes from Romans 11
1Cor 1:25 Our own reasoning and understanding are foolishness unto God. That is why God had chosen an unlearned man, even Joseph Smith to confound the learned and the wise. 1Cor 1:27. JSmith could had done nothing without God. It is humbling and inspiring to know that he translated the Book of Mormon by the gift and power of God.
I love this so much, thank you!
As LDS missionaries, we were instructed to teach Joseph translated from the golden plates. Today, missionaries have to teach Joseph put his face in a hat to translate off a peep stone. The latter story would be harder to teach and more difficult to believe. That is why church leaders avoided telling the rock in a hat account until they were forced to do so.
Oh, my word, the devil's account of the peep stone goes completely counter to what the Lord said in the Doctrine and Covenants, as well as what Joseph and Oliver continually said -- the B of M was translated by the Urim and Thumin. Sticking one's head in a hat is not a translation-- but a dictation. Why then were the plates so important is Joseph could stick his head in a hat using an ordinary stone, and why did the Lord tell Joseph to not show the Urim and Thumim to anyone and why did the Lord take away the Urim and Thumim when the 116 pages were lost. And why didn't the Lord take away the peep stone if it was a tool of translation? Because it wasn't? This whole peep stone hypothesis is making the Lord weary and Joseph and Oliver are rolling over in their graves.
Yup. It really looks silly. If the recruiters had taught me that, I wouldn't have joined the church.
Why is a church "instructing teaching" ??
That's called PROGRAMMING
In biblical terms that's called building a demonic STRONGHOLD IN THE MIND
Which is aka WITCH CRAFT
@@rodneyjamesmcguire
Showing your true colours now mate so you lost your faith because of this I for one can not deny the witness of the holy Ghost
@@MRRANDOMZ11 I don't hide anything, so I don't know what you mean by "true colors". A bit of an Ad Hominin, I'd say.
I'm no longer LDS because the foundational truth claims aren't true.
I used to say exactly the same thing as you, regarding the Holy Ghost.
In my humble opinion, It is an obvious fake. There's not archeologist (well maybe at BYU) alive that confirms it. So please let's get past it as a 'literal' translation. If you want to say much of it is analogy and symbolism then that is a great topic.
Anyways I just appreciate this guy putting out content and letting people comment/debate/put in their two cents like me.
32:00 this is an excellent point. Joseph Smith did believe in God and it would not make sense he would intentionally create a blasphemous document
Do a double interview with Pastor Jeff from Hello Saints and Steven Pynakker. They have similar view but I feel they could teach and learn from each other.
OK, I watched your introduction… And you lost me when you said Joseph Smith translated with his head in a hat… That story is a falsehood that originated from a guy who was excommunicated from the church in 1834 and wrote a book called "Mormonism unveiled"
The Joseph Smith foundation has done a lot of research on this, and have been able to substantiate that a hat and a stone were not used in the translation of the book of Mormon. It was simply the gold plates in the euram and thummim, just like anciently in the old testament .
I agree Joseph Smith did have a Cedarstone bit so did hundreds and thousands of Americans back in those days because they were all out plundering the burial sites of the ancient inhabitants of America
I think it's a blatant falsehood that Joseph Smith used a hat and a stone to translate the Book of Mormon and it just doesn't make any sense and it really throws her whole presentation off
I might be wrong because I haven't listened through the whole thing, but that's my first impression out of the gate
Roger Preble, defender of the faith
@rogerpreble440 I was putting forward the idea he was presenting and showing that even if it were true it is more fantastical than the idea that he saw God and an angel and translated the record by the gift and power of God. You should watch the whole video if you want to have proper context.
The term "Evangelical Christian" almost has no meaning left anymore. It can be applied to almost anyone who appears to be conservative, bible only, Republican, and so forth. Evangelicals know little about the Bible, church history, or theology/philosophy. A more descriptive classification system of Christianity would be Catholic, Orthodox, historic Protestant, fundamentalist, and cultic. The LDS Church falls into the last category because it rejects the creedal affirmations of historic catholic Christianity. The so-called "Second Great Awakening" of the early 19th century around the time of Joseph Smith was a distinctively "Protestant" religious renewal. It is hailed as a "great move of the Holy Spirit" but this is pure conjecture. It was also fanatical, schismatic, and subjective in temper. Neither the Catholic or Orthodox churches recognize this religious movement as anything but a "revival" of religious sensationalism. Other historic Protestant denominations also rejected this movement. Joseph Smith lived in a time of religious confusion and fanaticism.
Oh really sez who? What a bunch of nonsense. You are fun though.keep talking
Chaiasmus, misspelled, Im sure. If Joseph imagined and just created this in his own mind it could not stand up to the scrutiny especially when considering Chaismus
You boys need to reach out to Brian Stubbs, a retired linguist (scientist of language) and professor at Utah state University that has 30+ years experience studying the relationships of the language patterns found in the book of Mormon and relating it to ancient Hebrew/ Egyptian language.
It is no coincidence that Joseph worded the translation the way he did.
Yeah, he followed the KJV bible language.
There were 200 years of peace in the Book of Mormon, not 400.
I think Joseph received the Baptism of Fire and the Holy Ghost, which gave him the knowledge of heavenly mysteries, giving the appearance of religious genius. Intelligence from early schooling or understandings of men, not so much. Emma said he could not write an intelligible sentence, on his own.
@edwarddiviney5226 Being intelligent is different than being educated. I think it is clear that his intuitive ability to reason was incredible even if his practical skills of writing, arithmetic, etc. were not
He didn't write it, he dictated it. It's hard to overstate how different a skill that is, and that he obviously was gifted at it. Even his mother attested to that fact.
Wow, what a cool guy. He's very respectful. This is how you have a interfaith dialogue with people. I've seen some where it's just attack them attack them and make them look bad, like it's a setup, but this guy knows exactly what they're discussing, and he's very respectful. Because we can't bear false witness, there is the part of you that sees Christianity crumbling and wonder if dipping into the Latter-Day Saint pie gets Latter-day Saints dropping into your collection plate, like Patreon is the new collection plate, only by appealing to Latter-Day Saints that aren't really putting money into a collection plate, now they are, ya know? Part of you wonders if it's the new tactic to sell religion to the Mormons so, I'd be lying if I said that hadn't crossed my mind, but this guy seems genuine and you have to acknowledge and give the guy credit for being very respectful versus those that fear Latter-Day Saints and, oh wow, if you hear them talk, it's nasty, so thank you for being a respectful man, and really, on both sides, for not the two brothers not cornering the guy with a bunch of accusations. It's showing that there's a turning happening where people are having civil dialogue without feeling threatened
The Oliver Cowdry does not work. They did not meet each other until after the book was coming together.
I gotta say I love having huge lights in my face the whole video… 😅
hahahahaha that is why we have changed out set up hahahahah
AMEN TO THAT BROTHA
Steven is taking a very ignorant view of the motivations of Joseph Smith, saying that he was a kingdom builder and a treasure hunter from an early age. That is the same as saying that Mormons aren't Christians, with no debate. For studying as much as Steven says he has about Joseph Smith, he is dismissing a massive amount of written history by multiple sources that show that he was employed by other landowners in his younger years who employed him to search for treasure on their land. Steven makes it sound like treasure hunting was all Joseph's idea and was an overall pattern that carried through his whole life. This treasure hunting episode in Joseph's life was for a very short time in his teens before he was married to Emma. He and his brothers hired themselves out as laborers as was common to help people with their farms. It is a cheap shot and way too shallow of a conclusion for a serious conversation about Joseph's early life. From this, Steven implies that his pattern of employment was evidence of Joseph's corrupt nature which brought about Joseph's writing of the Book of Mormon to scam the world. How disappointing!
I'd like to point out that over the last 6 months or so, I've been digging into 1 Corrinthians 15, and I've met a lot of people that have lost someone to death, and I ask them: Are you a believer in God? I then recommend 1 Corrinthians 15 BECAUSE are you distraught about losing your loved one and wondering if you're ever going to see them again? And then it helps them feel better, because what is Paul explaining to the Saints at Corrinth, right? He's explaining the ressurection to a bunch of converts that converted from Pagan backgrounds thats where they came from and they're baptising the dead. Evangelicals love to argue this and say that it's the Pagans that have whipped out the old tradition and you might actually believe it, until you have a conversation with a Pagan and then that argument is flipped upside down.
So, what is happening there? Paul has come to the saints at Corrinth THAT ARE falling back into old traditions, as the Book of Mormon says they're, in essence, murmmuring against what they've been asked to do. It's NOT Paul asking why theyre baptising their dead, he's NOT, it's the Pagan to Christian converts asking why they've been asked by the Church to do this. I have friends that are two different sects of Paganism. One subscribes to Gia (sorry on the spelling) or mother earth that rules life and gives life to all things and when you die to return to her. He believes that magic or energy allows for magical and mystical things to be performed by someone who is willing to learn to channel this energy, but it's not used to curse anybody, it's used for good, but nobody is taught Christ-like love, it's every man for himself, but you're nice because it's the thing to do, but you're not loved less by Mother Earth because you're not, right? The second group I have friends to is the huge rise is Norse-Pagan with Odin and Valhalla. That you die gloriously and dine in Valhalla and hope to eventually make it to the presence of Odin. Ask either side if they believe in a resurrection or reuniting of the body and the spirit and they'll both tell you NO, THE BODY IS DEAD. Ask either of them if saving or reviving the dead is a thing, and they'll tell you NO. Was there ever a practice of dunking the body for saving purposes and they'll say you're crazy because they don't believe in baptism, period, or saving grace of any kind, so why are you asking me about baptism, no. The Jews and Muslims obviously don't believe in baptism and redeeming their dead so...... What happened in 1 Corrinthians then, if you talk with a Pagan or any background, they'll tell you that's absurd, because they don't believe in a resurrection, they believe you die and your body is gone, you go to mother earth or you head off to Valhalla and then on from there. So, what does that mean for Paul?
That means that Paul is teaching the newly converted Saints that they're conducting a saving ordinance for those that didn't have an opportunity to accept the gospel in this life because God is just, but Jesus has now introduced mercy, so Paul is telling them: You're now doing baptisms in proxy of your deceased loved ones because there is a resurrection of the body. You're reverting back to your own ways of thinking that the body dies and returns to the earth and it's energy, forget that, you've accepted Jesus Christ and have a faith in him that your body and spirit will one day be reunited and Jesus taught that "except a man be born of the water and of the spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven." Paul is telling them that because God is no respecter of persons, and loves all his children, that's why they're doing this ordinance. It's not Paul rebuking the practice of baptism for the dead, he's rebuking them for fighting against the ordinance because they're reverting back to their Paganistic views of There is no resurrection so doing this is pointless and they're grumbling over it, but it's the opposite. Paul is saying they NEED to be getting this work done because Jesus was ressurected, that changed the rules of the game now, so you're now redeeming the dead, A CHRISTIAN PRACTICE not a Pagan. My Pagan buddies, we have a mutual respect because we're life long friends, but the ideas that: A) There's a ressurection of the Dead is preposterous, B) They believe in redemption of the Dead is preposterous and 3) That they baptize at all, let alone the idea of dunking a dead body or proxy baptisms is non-sense and we'd agree to disagree so, there you have it
You're not going to learn that if you're too scared to engage with a Pagan and only want to converse with fellow Christians. A Evangelical Minister doesn't want to talk to a Pagan because they're talking to the devil, it's pointless, but a Christian can and will if they're life-long friends with someone that is a practicing Pagan. Is that person bad or evil? HECK NO! My buddies are very service oriented, they have a good heart to do good for others. If you disrespect them are they gonna treat you different than a Christian? Are they gonna be so ever forgiving? HECK NO! THEY'RE GONNA BE BUTT-HURT! and it's gonna take some time to heal from that disrespect, but they're going to treat you with immense respect if you extend that to them and you're going to find an extremely kind person that just believes in diety different than you do, but they're not a bad or evil person, so how would an Evangelical Pastor know any of that, unless you go to the source and ask the source directly. This is why open dialogue, such as represented and demonstrated here is so important, it breaks down barriers and gives us a new perspective on things, so, how do you argue that?
Joseph Fielding Smith taught that exaltation was the ultimate goal for every Latter Day Saint and yet this concept is nowhere to be found in the Book of Mormon
I have to call out the counter at 1:03:26. The spirit tells me that is one of two things: 1. A missed opportunity to bare witness of not just a "cool experience", but a powerful experience with the power of God; or 2. A soft way to imply that we need to build up a church of the world known as the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. Either way, I believe repentance is needed. Please pray to know how the Lord would have you repent of whatever happened here. If neither are correct, then please help me understand the motive to counter here rather than disconnect the Book of Mormon from a mortal man. Are we to glorify Joseph, or are we to tie things to Joseph that were never his and claim it godly? I think there does need to be a disconnect. Joseph NEVER published the book in the name of the church for a reason. We can speculate, but just as was mentioned earlier, the Book of Mormon doesn't lead people to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints anymore than the Bible leads people to the Roman Catholic church.
Joseph smith said he did not dig for treasure, but that it was rumored about much. We do know that he did know how to dig wells though.
Court documents prove you wrong.
No they don’t.
@@aprilpark7223
Yes they do. He was proved that he was a treasure digger. Research outside what the church wants you to know. It took me a while to see that the Jehovah’s Witnesses were wrong until I read outside information about them. Because the inside is only going to reveal so much.
@@Sirach144I love truth in all forms, but I’m not into people condemning them because you were taught to. You’ve probably never read anything Joesph Smith himself ever wrote, but instead rely on his enemies to tell you who he was, So either produce you proof or remain silent. He was taken to court many times and never convicted of anything.
@@aprilpark7223
Condemning? You stated the claim that he didn’t treasure dig. Court documents show that he did, which makes your claim false. Nothing condemning. Just all FACTS
*THE PEOPLE VS JOSEPH SMITH.*
This provides a glimpse into into Joseph Smith’s involvement with treasure digging, one of the most fascinating periods in early Mormon history. Referred to as “The Glass Looker,” Joseph Smith Jr. was the subject of a pre-trial investigation on March 20, 1826. Of this period, BYU historian Marvin Hill observed: “Most historians, Mormon or not, who work with the sources, accept as fact Smith’s career as village magician. Too many of his closest friends and family admitted as much, and some of Smith’s own revelations support the contention.” [16] While granting Smith the benefit of every doubt with its kid gloves treatment, the LDS Church itself similarly confirms Joseph’s involvement in treasure digging, and resulting arrest, in Joseph Smith’s 1826 Trial. [17]
Smith was arrested for disturbing the peace, a charge commonly used for charlatans and tricksters, and according to the Vagrant Act of New York included those “pretending to tell fortunes, or to discover where lost goods may be found.” Referred to as “The Glass Looker” in court documents, Joseph openly admitted to indulging in magic arts and organizing hunts for buried gold. New York law provided punishment for disorderly persons, whose definition included jugglers (conjurors), diviners, and those pretending to have skill in discovering lost goods. The charge aligns with uncle Jesse Smith’s description of Joseph: “He says he has eyes to see things that are not, and then has the audacity to say they are, and that the angel of the Lord . . . has put him in possession of great wealth, gold, silver, precious stones.” [18]
Given that no treasure ever materialized, Stowell’s nephew, Peter Bridgeman took legal action after he became sufficiently concerned over Smith’s unfulfilled promises, ever-increasing requests for money and complaints about treasure slipping away at the slightest infraction. In his complaint, he wrote: “Mr. Stowell is represented as being not a very bright man, but he had saved considerable money for those times, and Joe Smith managed to get and spend most of it.” [19]
20:41 it takes so much faith to believe this naturalistic point of view
Would love to do a podcast with you about a gospel topic
Darlene
Just ignore all the anachronisms, Protestant ideas, 19th century writing style, Joseph Smith Sr’s tree of life vision, descriptions of freemasonry, themes and phrasing borrowed from well known 19th century works, NT passages, King James translation errors, and even then you still have nothing to prove the Book of Mormon is ancient given zero trace of BofM archaeology/language/religion in the Western Hemisphere. This is why mormons dishonestly describe the translation process itself as an impossible feat. Sad!
Joseph smith did not use a hat, nor a seer stone to translate! He used the Urim and Thumin; and translated the Book of Mormon by the power of God!
I am always puzzled why Evangelicals dismiss the teaching of Theosis ( that we can become like God) when many early Christian fathers believed it.
Theosis is the understanding that human beings can have real union with God, and so become like God to such a degree that we participate in the divine nature.
Justin Martyr lived (100-165) insisted that in the beginning men "were made like God, free from suffering and death," and that they are thus "deemed worthy of becoming gods and of having power to become sons of the highest."
In the second century, Irenaeus, bishop of Lyons (c. 130-202) said “Christ, because of love, became what we are, that He might bring us to be even what He is Himself." Or “If the Word is made man, it is that man might become gods.”
At about the same time, Clement of Alexandria (c. 150-215), wrote: "Yea, I say, the Word of God became a man so that you might learn from a man how to become a god."
St. Athanasius: who died in 273 AD said “God became man so that men might become gods”
670?AD John of Damascus taught that Christ’s redemptive work enables the image of God to be restored in us so that we become “partakers of divinity.”
Even more recently C. S. Lewis understood this concept and expressed it compellingly in Mere Christianity:
The command “Be ye perfect” is not idealistic gas. Nor is it a command to do the impossible. He is going to make us into creatures that can obey that command. He said (in the Bible) that we were “gods” and He is going to make good His words. If we let Him-for we can prevent Him, if we choose-He will make the feeblest and filthiest of us into a god or goddess, dazzling, radiant, immortal creatures, pulsating all through with such energy and joy and wisdom and love as we cannot now imagine, a bright stainless mirror which reflects back to Him perfectly (though, of course, on a smaller scale) His own boundless power and delight and goodness. The process will be long and in parts very painful; but that is what we are in for. Nothing less. He meant what he said. (Macmillan, 1952, p. 174)
1) Joseph Smith claimed to have come up with the idea for the Book of Mormon the VERY SAME YEAR (1823) that “View of the Hebrews” was first published. Coincidence?
2) Mormon General Authority and historian B.H. Roberts wrote hundreds of pages doing research on the disturbing similarities between View of the Hebrews and the Book of Mormon. Later, B.H. Roberts went on to lose his testimony in the historicity of the Book of Mormon. Coincidence?
If there are mistakes they are the faults of men therefore condemn not the things of God
Remember: it is not the BOM that is on trial, rather it is the heart of the man reading it that is.
I'm not a professional - but I don't think those lamps are in the optimal spot. Lol 😅 aren't they to prevent shadows.. they created more!
Good, pickup. Those lamp should have been behind the cameras, not Infront of them. It's like looking into the Sun when you focus your eyes on the lamps.
38 to 42 minutes, really-really powerful
Love Steven Pynakker, but his explanation of how the Book of Mormon came to be is preposterous. Any explanation that includes Joseph Smith being a ‘genius’ or ‘really creative’ just demonstrates that you haven’t read it closely imo. The book was written by Israelites who knew the scriptures intimately and over hundreds of years.
😂😂😂😂 it's easier to con people than to convince them they have been conned. Tell me a great theological innovation of the book of mormon that is based in antiquity.
Bro 24:51 he was behind a sheet. He already had this written down.
Non-active Mormon here. I grew up Mormon. My family is all active. I served a mission in the south and was exposed to constant attacks by other Christians. I came across numerous sources of anti-Mormon literature. I was married in the temple. I’m a descendent of Brigham Young.
It wasn’t until i truly started looking into the church’s history, in particular Joseph Smith, the BoM, the PofGP, Brigham Young, and other early leaders that the truth was slowly revealed.
Factual, there is ZERO evidence that supports the BoM. There is no DNA, archeological, anthropological, or linguistic evidence of the BoM.
The PofGP is a complete fraud. JS, as a prophet and seer translated this before the rosetta stone and egyptology could challenge that. See the 1912 New York Times article about it.
I was destroyed to learn that JS had up to 30 wives BEFORE the DC 132 revelation. That early leaders still practiced it even though they were lying to the US government saying they abolished the practiced. JS practiced polygamy and polyandry.
Learning the JS practiced folk magic, divining using a seer stone, treasure hunting, and that he never discovered any treasure yet he regularly charged people for his divining, was also eye opening.
There are so many issues with the BoM, how it was translated, and JS’s life that they are too numerous to list here.
All that being said, I believe the church, generally speaking, is a net positive and teaches meta truths. I simply wish they would be honest and transparent with their history.
The naturalist explanation is more fantastical than what Smith said happened….It is a hard thing.
24 hours??! We did a 3 or 4 day challenge in young women's for a summer sleepover challenge. It was amazing ❤
The whole head in a hat thing is not how it was translated. It’s how he explained what it was like since he couldn’t use the actual items to demonstrate.
This makes sense