Why you use both brakes riding downhill off-road.
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 เม.ย. 2021
- I discuss and demonstrate the problem of using only rear brake while riding down hills and dive into the strategies and technique for a controlled down hill decent.
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I like your attitude, Bret. That you don't take things for granted. You shatter old "truths" like only use the rear brake downhill, when you demonstrate how it feels with rear brake only compared to both brakes. Impressive!
When I started offroad I heard all the old "truths" and found out the hard way. Downhill only rear brake makes you press harder and harder, it locks, the rear wheel gets outr of shape and you go harder still. Your heart jump like on your cluck-cluck-cluck chicken run. Modulating both brakes and feel for traction is the way to go. Thanks for showing us better rider techniques, Günter from Nürnberg/Germany
I've never understood why many ADV riders use a ton of rear brake on hard descents. In my mountain biking experience, I used my front brake on really hard descents and rear brake to add some control as needed. I still use this technique when I descend on my Africa Twin.
Exactly!, as long as you don't lockup the front or brake too abruptly on the front, you should be fine. The front wheel is what keeps you up on the bike, if you loose control of the front, you are doomed to fall down, the rear can go wherever it wants and most likely you will be fine, just keep the front under control.
@Jeff Greenspon I have a DCT model so no external clutch for me. When you say "Idle uphill" are you referring to stopping on a climb? Definitely learn to slip the clutch just lightly. You can practice that skill in parking lots. On uphills while stopped, it's a little tricky and you need to give it a touch of throttle to move.
As usual very technical and professional, love the choice of words you always use to describe your thecniques, very simple and direct....keep it up!!
Excellent content - as an adventure rider who hasn't ridden for awhile, your videos are a fantastic reminder and also way to better my skills - thankyou
So many things!!! First off, that hill was NO JOKE and it was awesome to see the strategy behind a steep downhill ride. Thank you. I am very interested in Southern Africa 22 and I hope to make that more and more of a possibility over the next year. Good on you for creating rides like that and pushing people to snap out of comfort bubbles to explore more of the world. The ability to go with a knowledgable, capable instructor takes a lot of the hesitations out of the mix for a grand journey like that. The chicken prayer is hilarious and perfect for ADV riders. Attitude matters is a great motto and should be tattooed on every riders throttle hand when they buy a bike. Lastly, absolutely love the SLOW-MO footage in this vid. ;-). Great job, keep up the good work and I cannot wait to see more about the South Africa trip.
Amazing video Bret, love those! A little tip for the audio, if your left and right channels are wobbly like this it's a good idea to just create mono audio out of the two stereo ones.
That one slipped past my headphones. It sounded fine. It is the last one I recorded like that.
It was either scrap it or edit and post it.
@@BretTkacs Definitely a good decision to post it!
@@BretTkacs you can make it mono in most video editors if you have anymore old footage
@@BretTkacs it makes it hard to watch, not trying to be mean but it really is discombobulating
Good advice Bret and well articulated.
I’m newish to dirt riding and I found 2 things that helped me overcome the anxiety of steep loose descents: 1) knowing just how much grip that skinny front tyre can give you (was way above my expectations) and 2) getting a feel for the rear brake. At first I had no idea of it was locking or not and that took time to work out. Now since I’ve worked both of those out, I’m much more confident and more controlled going downhill
I just love Bret’s videos and tips. Thanks!!
I rode with 80/20 tyres for a long time on my Vstrom, learnt quickly to use the front brake on dowmnhills, could barely touch the rear without it getting out of shape. Great video as always.
Yet again you nailed it. I rode a bit as a young man (teens, a a few times in my 30s. At about 60 y.o. I started up again, dirt & street bikes. My experienced friends told me "Stay off the front brake downhill off road!" I listened / it didn't work!!! I didn't crash, but luckily was not on truly extreme hills. I played around with the front and learned what you are saying and also learned from a trials friend. Your teaching is great. Thanks for posted your instructions on TH-cam / GREAT for those of us who cannot attend your classes. - Ray, in SW Colorado.
What a great instructional video. Please make one for every drill you taught in Georgia. I am excited and eager to practice them all and benefit from your excellent teaching and training strategies. Consider an email to your attendees listing all of the drills. This would help us remember them and give us a guideline for continual improvement. Thank you!!!
Brett Tkacs; This video was a game changer for me. Recently at the Giant Loop Rally in SE Oregon, I found myself at the top of a very long, loose, steep descent on my new (to me) 2017 R1200GS Rallye. The descent dropped roughly 3000' in about 5 miles....that's pretty steep. I've made it down some short steep stuff on my 790Aventure R, but this was steeper, longer and on 100lbs more bike, and felt like a whole new level of challenge. It was a double track full of ruts, sand, gravel, baby heads, switchbacks and some minor muddy stream crossings. Fortunately I watched this video several times in the weeks prior to that descent and I was able to use all of the Techniques you discuss here. I approached slowly looking ahead for landing spots where I knew I could stop or change directions, kept my feet on the pegs, knees locked in, kept the bike running but with the clutch in most of the time, one finger on the front brake while easing it on and off to keep the traction and speed under control. Before this video, I would have been skidding the rear, duck walking and afraid to use the front brake...and probably on my ass multiple times. I came down that hill slower than my buddy who was on a Husky 701 and much better skills, but I made it down, stayed upright and actually surprised myself. I wish I had some pictures of that descent, but I was too puckered to get my camera out. Thank you for teaching me another great set of skills.
Love the whole " don't use the front brake" crowd. Coming from a mountain bike background you hear that from a lot of people who know nothing as well in that sport. Front brake is so important!! Just got to learn to feel when it will let go an not grab too much brake in slippery spots.
besides, with a hill like that 80% of your bikes weight is on the front. it has traction for days
Once you master using rear and front brake by listening and feeling the tire/gravel interaction, you'll like keeping the clutch pulled in and use if needed as he said. I can take a passenger down or up my curvy, 30 deg sloped gravel driveway on my 750 lb Roadking. Gross weight 1250 lb.
Not sure what "MTB" crowd you're talking about sonny... 😂but that is not something that is widely taught- unless it's from muppets & morons in mtb. Because most of us use the front & rear brakes...
This is so helpful! I'd been riding the rear brake trying to keep control of my bike on downhill curves in dirt and gravel since I'd gotten so use to using it for stability on the road when moving really slow. Much better understanding of why it's important not to.
Also your suggestions helped with the back pain. I added pivoting risers so I was in a more upright position on my GS and already can tell the difference. Also adjusted the position of the levers to be more comfortable. Just need to replace the top brakeline and I'll be off practicing again. Thanks for the help!
That "Chicken Prayer..." Hahahaha! It'sa me every time I try to create new content for my channel. I believe PG language to be the hardest part of creating my ride videos, lol!
I wish i saw this video before we encountered these loose offroad hill terrains during our trip 😂. Thanks Bret!
That T700 is such a beautiful machine... Great tips Bret!
I always enjoy your videos; greetings from Germany
Very handy and I'm 100% sure I will be using this advice very soon-Luckily Scottish very rarely swear-only 3 times in a sentence!!!
Thanks for another great lesson Brett!
It's a head game. My girlfriend was terrified of dirty downhills . She could not bring herself to use the front brake and became really good at the "spawning salmon" technique, sliding rear wheel going lock to lock like a flapping fish. Pretty impressive to watch. We had to come up with some weird training scenarios to break her fear. Once done she was mortified at how effective (and controllable) the front brake is. She has no interest in learning how to bulldog, though.
Thanks,, my favorite video of yours " and they are all good" is you changing a tire one handed
Great video! And great re- enactment !
Helpful advice. Great content as usual.
First time I've seen you on a Tenere! love that bike
Wow! Every day is a school day with Bret Tkacs😎
Your skills are impressive.
I wish I would have seen this years ago. Very nice.
Just did the White Rim Trail in Utah on a GSA and noticed a few of the other riders locking up the back brake going down hill...they looked at me funny when I told them I use the front brake. Dropped the bike once during the trip and smashed rear brake foot control...could not use it anyway. I used the front just as used described and it worked very well.
Excellent video
Thanks bret
Great video as usual 👍
This reminds me of feathering both brakes on my road bike (with fairly old big squishy tyres) when I lived with my parents down crusty roads whiich had been snowed on, and thawed and refrozen, the same principle of keeping traction by stopping the wheels from locking.
Thats my driveway with rocks (lg and medium loose gravel like your abs video with gravel pit)and 2/10 of a mile. Always a treat for myself and my tiger. It always changes with rain and the movement of aggrigate.
I was able to make it down a blind hill yesterday, thanks to having less resistance to squeezing the front brake. Luckily I had gone up the same hill an hour earlier, but because of the way I had got myself too close to a boulder I no longer had a view and the hill was deeply rutted and rocky.
I would have to make a quick move to get away from the boulder before being able to get pointed downhill again. It went smoothly, but I only ride a klx 150. I could only imagine the pucker factor with a big bike.
As usual, good stuff..front brake off road is fundamental 👍
Hey Bret, you are missing the letter "E" in the word RIDE in the logo at the end!
Awesome video!👌
Still can't feel the pressure that I need on the rear break with my new boots.
Need alot of practice.
I was following you from MotoTrek,
Suddenly you were gone,
I thought I'll not be able to find you.
But I'm very happy I found you here. 😊
Welcome back, you have some catching up to do 😀
@@BretTkacs yes sir.
I find shifting weight to the rear on decents helpful for me. On my mountain bike on the steepest decents you'd often almost have your chest on the saddle and your bum over the rear mudguard.
Dat sound though :D
(Pretty sure you can have your editing software sort it out)
Bret - I have done this many times with my engine OFF as I don't use engine braking, and it is more fun!!
I made this mistake on my dirtbike last weekend, and literally ate dirt. Bikes okay though so were all good.
Thank you 🙏
Can you do a video on what motorcycles you currently own and why?
And you can probably ride any of them anywhere, but maybe a bit of info on your current setups and why you choose these bikes.
Since, if you can ride them anywhere, why have multiple 😉 Especially if you have them set up differnetly, that would provide a lot of ideas for others for their bikes.
I think it was 35-40 years ago I read an article in Dirt Bike Magazine (or another off road magazine) whose purpose was to inform on using front brake on downhills. Somehow the idea of no front braking on a downhill continues to be passed around.
Front braking is totally the only usefull way to go. Eff the rear brake as there is no load on the rear tire to allow any rear braking to stop the bike
As an aside, a descent with ABS ON would have also been instructive.
I love you're reminding yourself not to cuss 😂😂
Another great vid Bret! This last weekend I was staying at the Mosko Bates Mototel with my Africa Twin and just going down their newly rocked driveway felt pretty sketchy on my big bike. I was having an issue where I was applying front brake and my front end would start going in all different directions, it wouldn't brake in a straight line but it wasn't being deflected by the rocks. I noticed my front tire was pretty worn out and cupping, do you think that could be the cause or something else? I have the sag adjusted correctly, I think, so if it's not the tire I'm not sure what else could be going on. I've got a new tire already so hopefully that solves the problem.
Great demonstration, coming from mountain biking prioritizing front braking has long been the proper technique for steep and especially loose descents. I would be curious to see what that descent would be like with ABS engaged.
ABS engaged it would become a shit show quickly
I did a hard abs demo but it didn't make the video cut. Wasn't much to say. It was fairly well controlled but a little nerve racking
@@BretTkacs Is this because T7 ABS is road-tuned? Your other videos on ABS offroad on bigger bikes show it working comparably or better than without -- but those were on flats.
@@SethJayson yes as well as being in a very technical section. Even off-road abs can't work without traction and doing rear only braking
Bret my awesome mentor there are audio issues with this video too!
Wtf! Grrrr
The volume is maybe not constant, but pretty audible nonetheless. I didn't miss anything he said!
Thanks, Bret. These video does are are great. On this one, I’m surprised you don’t mention engine breaking. I usually use that as my first line of defense, followed front brake, rear brake, in that order. Thoughts?
I am almost always clutch in or power on. Brakes are more precise.
I wish I would have thought of that while I was there... I would have said don't do it. Not on this hill
Hi Bret, love the video and have no criticism just a tip you may or may not want to try and get the hang of. I've been riding for 43 years, both on and off road and have a list of riding credentials as long as my arm. But this comment isn't about me, it's about the people that want to learn. Front brake is essential as you say but if you combine this with using your back brake more as a retarder and not a brake then you get really good braking effect from the back wheel. Front brake, engine braking and rear brake as a retarded makes for loads of stability and control.
I was on a trail ride a few years back and the firebreak was so greasy that not only did I loose the front at a crest... I lost it again just picking up the bike.
I chose the wet sheep rutted 45deg grassy slope, over the side, front brakes only. no problem.
I had an IT200s that drum rear brakes that would barely last a ride, I was faster on that than my 97 YZ as I would race up to a corner, hard on the front (getting the rear light and sometimes airborne), release the brakes and turn in. Back with rear brakes on the YZ's I now slide the rear more and it sits you up in a corner if you forget to do all your braking BEFORE the corner...
Drag the rear & front. One finger for front brake for precision
Once you master using rear and front brake by listening and feeling the tire/gravel interaction, you'll like keeping the clutch pulled in and use if needed as he said. I can take a passenger down or up my curvy, 30 deg sloped gravel driveway on my 750 lb Roadking. Gross weight 1250 lb.
Thanks for the video
Some basic questions
1. Do you keep your engine on or off?
2. If off, are you going down in the first gear?
3. Any advice for bikes whose ABS can't be turned off?
Engine on, clutch in, keep the ABS below the engagement point if possible but if it engages let it do its job.
Thankfully my gopro does not yet have a microphone.....I havent had to worry about language on my youtube clips LOL
On a serious note, are you engine braking on these decents, or clutch in and just using the brakes. As a 4x4 driver, I engine brake everytime, but in doing so on the bike have managed to stall it on the rear brake whilst doing a couple of steep decents, and that made them a little more exciting! Thanks again for your excellent content.
Clutch in
What's your opinion about the T7? 😉 Great vids as always, hope you come to Spain and we can trail together
th-cam.com/video/w3dEDoxZ-G4/w-d-xo.html
Saludos cordiales ,buena explicación ,y un favor , podrías considerar colocar subtitulado en español
Great
this has happened to me several times... scary!! I am getting better though
🔥🔥🔥
Thanks for the video, always great contents! the switch off for the abs is for blocking the rear wheel to help turn the bike? The T7 has still the abs on for the front wheel, isn’t it? What happen if you keep abs on? Thanks
The T7 is all off unlike bikes like the KTM 890 & Africa Twin
@@BretTkacs oh man that is awesome. that makes me want to buy a T7 instead of a Honda 300L with ABS. that's huge being able to turn it off on both.
I find it easier to keep my eyes shut all the way down. Oh, and take a pillow with me for the landing.
Hey Brett how's the t700 comparing to the GS and KTM off road?
Geez, how many bikes do you have? every video is a different bike! Keep 'em coming though!
Hi Bret. I'm wondering, does front-wheel abs make downhill loose dirt/gravel more difficult or dangerous? (like on a Honda 300L ABS with rear ABS turned off). thank you!
Hi Bret I’m very new to biking but love your tips. Do you advise to keep abs off all the time in this type of surface?
It depends if you have off-road abs
@@BretTkacs I think I will just keep watching for now. Keep up the good work love your video teaching.
Great tutorial sir! Please tell me that very sweet looking emblem will eventually say Smile while you "ride" instead of "rid". ;)
Missed that in photo shop when. I had to flip colors. Good eye
When are having another class in Georgia? I will like to attend one, every class I saw on the website is in Washington and they are all full. I will send you an email as well. Thanks
Bret, great teaching video again, but you've got to sort that audio please. Even if you just convert the track to mono in post, it will stop your voice bouncing from one ear to the other.
A lesson on techniques when stuck going up that hill would be worthwhile🙂.
It's on the list
Bret, any update on the 790 issues?
What if you can’t turn off abs?
MORE T700 videos please
Notice ABS was off on the Tenere. Trying to integrate this with your other videos saying to use ABS offroad. IIRC, Tenere "off road" turns off ABS for both wheels. Many other bikes, "ABS off" just turns off ABS to the rear.
First was to turn it off the show the results however the T7 only has road abs and this was distinctly not a road 😁
Does the Honda even have integrated braking? They seem to do everything differently.
Bret, I don't know how you became such a badass, but Jesus, you are a badass! OK you are not a badass, you are a SUPER DUPPER BADASS!
I learned how to stop trying and let the bike do the work. When study now I don't read about motorcycle riding techniques, I read about about physics, motorcycle design and psychology.
Are you still borrowing this Tenere or have you taken the leap to purchase because you've fallen in love with it?
😍😍
You didn't mention what you are doing with the clutch at the same time. Are you at some time clutch out using engine braking? Or clutch in to not stall the bike?
What if you do not have front abs that is not switchable to off?
No change... If it is "off road" abs you are fine in all but the most extreme situations however if it is street bias abs it is even more critical to maintain control and avoid the initiation of the abs cycle.
Thanks Bret, great tips! Heads up, your logo at the end says “Smile while you RID” not ride. Quick fix, I’m sure.
Wondering about that too.
I flipped colors in photoshop and missed that😒
Not really worth pulling the video for a repost I suppose, the audio issues is worse. In the end I do these for free so I can overlook a little 😉
@@BretTkacs yeah, not a big issue, just thought I’d point it out in case you were sending it off for printing. I watched on an iPad and didn’t notice the audio issue, so maybe it’s not too bad.
Bret ...the audio issues continue here too. Please make the audio channel mono in the post production.
This was one of several videos that issues persisted. I know the fix now but am still looking for the cause.
@@BretTkacs great. Thanks 👍🏼
What about the clutch?
Clutch in...
As a new rider - and an ex-automotive braking engineer, I'm always curious why people are so keen to switch ABS off, especially front wheel. Obviously the system will release pressure to avoid front wheel lock (only a good thing), so is the concern just the amount of recovery time to build braking pressure back up? The ABS calibration is too conservative when reapplying? Or just a feeling that a good rider is better than an ECU and hydraulic system modulating at 20x per second? For a less experienced rider, on the hill in the video, is it still better to keep ABS off? (I ride CRF300L with ABS, rear can be switched off. Front could also be if you pulled the fuse!)
I think the idea is that abs doesn't know when your sliding downhill vs losing traction from over braking so it's better to know what your brakes are doing rather than be caught off guard by abs. Obviously I'd say that ABS is always preferable on typical roads because it's only going to engage when you genuinely start locking up and shouldn't. I imagine you've gotten the info you wanted in the last 4 months though and there are plenty of good resources on the subject. I honestly am just reiterating what I think I've heard not 100% on it
Is the T7 your new bike? Read somewhere that you sold your 790.
Among You, Bret Tkacs, Ari Henning from Revzilla ( formerly MC Garage),and Fast Eddie ( aka Greg) from Motojitsu...I truly feel all of my motorcycle teaching is well covered.
Now ..it's time to " shut up and practice" ..with a big cheesy Shrek grin. Cheers Bret
Bret, I know you have probably addressed this --- BUUT did you sell your 790R or do you still have it?
Why aren't you using first gear to engine brake the rear wheel?
I usually use a low gear, modulating the front brake, while touching the rear occasionally if speed gets a bit high. That way you can hear if the rear wheel is locking up under your braking, as the engine note will drop as the wheel tries to lock up.
@Jeff Greenspon I'm on a 390 KTM, a very light bike with not huge HP.
Engine size doesn't determine engine braking ability, in fact the bigger the motor, the more engine braking you get. Your idle speed just needs to be lower than the speed the bike is moving.
When set to idle, the motor wants to maintain that RPM, so will provide a deceleration force if your drivetrain starts to run faster.
I'm guessing either your idle is too quick, or the ATwin isn't set up to provide engine braking, or perhaps your transmission is special, like a slipper or non-direct coupling.
I get a ton of engine braking, heck today the engine caused the rear wheel to lock up momentarily when it was going over a slippery surface, but all told it kept the bike well under control on the slippery slope. Front brake alone would have allowed the bike to rotate around the front steering axis too much, and I may have even ditched the bike.
Is that an S with spoke wheels or R at the end of the video? Looks like a new S.
Why wouldn't you want to use the ABS? Seems like it would work well going down a steep hill.
Yup, he missed an opportunity. The real trick is using front ABS on, rear off, but the Yamaha doesn't have that feature.
What gear are you in on a hill like this
Clutch in
Why not descend in low gear with rear brake?
28 degrees with pitch up to 32 that is a double black run at a ski resort
Just another rear brake, not gonna help any imo
Hell no!! Rear brake against the motor? The front brake has the control not the rear.
I'd love to get a few of your courses in.
Who else gave it a thumbs 👍 before the ads were over
1:09 to 1:18. I would have already crashed at least 4 seconds ago...Damn dude..
* yoda accent *
" mad skills you have..hmmm.? * xD
If you Dare...??Come to Nepal Upper Mustang Hill Area where is Deadly Zone Rocky Stone slippery Mud.. Rough and narrow way..
Why is he on that T7 instead of his KTM790?
Because I can 😉
We ride in the steep East Tennessee mountains. If you want to come show me how to ride our steep downhills without using my front brake I’ll be happy to watch you. 😂
I'm using the wet chicken technic... I go back...!