Personally, what helped me the most on loose surfaces or off road, was simply keeping 'eyes up' looking as far ahead as is practicable. When looking down close to you, one's focus becomes reactionary and your balance is totally off as the head is down and your body will compensate. It sounds weird, but try it, keep your eyes up focusing ahead and watch how stable the bike becomes and your speed off-road improves.
Yes. For rugged tracks, choose/see your line, look up - well ahead, and ride it. I have ridden tough, rough, rocky or muddy roads on this concept. It takes concentration and focus, sometimes for hours at a time, but it’s worked for me.
Thankyou Llewellyn. At 66 yrs, your vids have improved my riding no end. Have been practicing this and have incorporated it into my daily riding over the last 5 years, off-road and on. Its become and ingrained skill. I feel like a youngster again. Never to old to learn!
Also 66. Bought a little klx230 for the mileage and because I travel some gravel roads. Haven’t ridden since 1981 tho and was deathly afraid of gravel back then so need to build some skills to combat the fear and bad habits. Llewellyn’s explanation of using the brakes, including the front, to load the suspension makes perfect sense. But there’s gravel like this video and then there’s gravel that’s 2-3” deep of 1/2” diameter rounded stones and not a curve in sight. Manitoba, Canada. Cheering you on🍻
How do people say what’s once you’ve fallen off a horse you should get back on it and start doing it again, which I’m gonna do it again. All I want is people to support me as much as I possibly can and make new friends to help me on my journey to do my CBT and get my A license and once of achieved that I want to do the adventure, riding and touring. I’m living on my own. I’m divorced. I’m a big football fan West Ham but I want to try new and fantastic new things if anyone can help me be much appreciated
@@geoffgauci7590get yourself a crf or klx and join the trf, a lot of them are in 40s/50s and upwards, you'll learn a lot, have the support and find yourself on great rides, would make a great foundation if you wanted to move onto an adventure bike with bigger trips on your own or again with trf people who also do adventure bike rideouts
Coming from a dirtbike background I found it natural to ride on dirt roads on a adventure bike, I think if you have the opportunity to ride a dirtbike first before going on a big adventure bike you'll find it alot easier when you make that leap.
Most riders that i know (including myself) started with heavy bikes, then lighter, then lighter, then 2T on a track. Riding dirt fast on heavy bikes, like GS1250 does not make sense. It is high price to pay if fail- in money and your heath. In video cornering standing look cool, but these bikes are not designed to ride in attack position and nothing can be changed. I still ride 650cc on gravel, but slow and safe. btw trail braking is good thing on a bike.
@@tomaslight I ride R1250 GSA and I wouldn't be taking those corners on gravel at the speeds he's taking them but I would likely be on my feet rather than my rearend. What I've come to learn about riding a heavy bike offroad is that sometimes you need more speed than the little guys, some times you go slower. It's a little bit different skill set because sometimes the weight helps, sometimes it doesn't. But letting the bike do bike things unhindered is always a good thing and you have to get on your feet to let it move around under you. Rest where appropriate, and a gravel track like that is nice clean stretch of road where a rider can rest a bit if you slow down. A lot less risk of losing traction if you aren't trying to push your grip to it's limits. I take my GSA on single tracks where 450s and smaller are prefered. Everyone is always amazed at how the big girl can perform. I keep saying it that the real limit of any motorcycle is the rider.
It’s been 3 years that i practice trail braking in most corners on asphalt; i love it; i didn’t knew i could also do it on gravel roads; thanks a lot; i will try it in my next ride; best regards from Montreal.
The is hands down the most detailed and thoroughly explained video on this subject that I have seen to date. I see that it is 3 years old. I have seen a dozen other trail - braking videos previously to this and some of those were downright confusing. Great job with the ride behind and other use of screen graphics to help a variety of learners!! Thank you, sir!
Thank you ! I was always told to never use the front brake cornering ~ trusted my friend and did it ! Didn't lose one corner on the last trip learning & trusting this skill.
I just spent five days of scootering around the remote parts of the states of Utah and Wyoming. The entire time I focused on improving my techniques and this very video kept echoing in my head. While very few turns were as smooth as in the video - without additional factors of concern such as larger lose/embedded boulders, deep sandy ruts, flowing water, mud, washouts, etc. - the technique of trail braking worked like a charm and I’m gradually improving at it. While fancy foot-work on the rear brake pedal is still developing for me, and later braking is also a skill that needs improving, I feel tremendously more confident in most turns now. Yes, the added traction is indeed a game changer. I so wish I had been taught about it many years ago. My sincerest gratitude.
For those who wonder of you can use this technique on a non-ABS bike, you surely can but you need to drag and modulate especially the front brake and very light application on the rear brake, or no rear at all (useful in straight line). Also move forward to put weight on the front, elbows up. Comined with the engine braking as mentioned here, it is more stable that you think even on really loose gravel.
How do these techniques change when the gravel (usually pea-size) is consistently 1--3" deep because it is freshly applied? Same question when the grader has recently gone through and chewed up the hard-pack into 1-4" of loose dirt, stone, etc.? Have already been working on trail braking off-road to help on loose terrain going into tight downhill corners. Good tip!
I’ve been practicing trail braking on the street for some years, with great results. However, I’ve always assumed that the grip levels on gravel roads would be too low to do it there, but will try ASAP. Btw, one thing that wasn’t explicitly mentioned is to also overlap the braking and throttle. That is, while nearly at the apex apply a small amount of throttle BEFORE letting go of the brake (your brake pressure should be minimal at this point) and then smoothly increase the throttle while letting go of the brake. This way you avoid that slight “hiccup” when switching from braking to applying the gas.
agreed, especially with modern epa compliant bikes that use a fuel cut off on decel which can make the throttle feel a bit snatchy on application. It’s one of those things that’s very hard to master but extremely satisfying when you get it right
Trail braking on the street really goes against any form of UK advanced riding. I wouldn’t bother. If you are trail braking on the street, you are going too fast
Thanks for this video. I started trail braking on the street a couple of years ago and it made a huge difference in my confidence. I never really considered it on dirt until watching this video the other day. Much to my surprise it felt really good. I'm very excited about practicing it in the future. I'm also shocked at how many people are resistant to trail braking in general. They all seem to argue that it is dangerous and should be reserved for racers on the track. Truth be known we all trail brake with our cars every time we go around a corner. I consider it one of the most important skills to learn and it's not really difficult to learn.
Same here, I noticed on my chopper that accelerating and braking constantly makes my ride safer. Instead of just riding in the city at a constant speed.
I think that how naturally someone rides a motorcycle depends somewhat on how much they rode a bike as a kid -- most of these instructional videos seem like just common sense.
So this explains why braking in a straight line before the corner then coasting through it is making the bike lose grip. Thankyou. It's taken me a long time to realise this mistake👍
Thanks, this was exactly what i needed. I just started riding off road and coasting on gravel corners just feels really sketchy. It feels like if i do one wrong movement i wash out. Ill definitely give this a try, makes complete sense from a logic standpoint. Thanks for the clear and to the point video.
One thing from my experience is that trail braking is truly something that can only be perfected with practice. It is a perishable skill because you end up losing the "feel" for it the less often times you do it. I always make it a point to trailbrake every corner...and I ride city streets. I am definitely very far from being perfect with it but I enjoy every time I get it right.
Excellent video and explaination! I am coasting into gravel corners and now I know why it feels unsettled. Can't wait until my ankle heals and I start practicing trail braking!
While having some front brake applied does increase the effective weight and thus grip of the front tyre, it also increases the load, or the amount of grip that's actually being used.
I'm trying to visualize how this feels. Before trail breaking, I would apply both brakes in a straight line before the curve then accelerate out of the curve. So with this technique, do I still slow down before the curve but still leave a little too much speed I know has to be taken up with trail braking in the curve? I'm just trying to prepare my mindset.
Try it on pavement first. It's almost the identical techniques. Find a section of curvy road you know very well and carry a little more speed into the corner than you normally would and use your front brake to finish bringing you down to a comfortable speed. Roll onto the throttle as you release the brake on the way out. Just remember you are not on a race track. The reason is this: pavement has way more traction and will be way more forgiving if you make a mistake as in not crashing at all. While you're out there you can transition to a groomed gravel road where there shouldn't be any big surprises half way through a corner. Then hit a familiar trail. It's best to ramp up a new skill.
I've always has this question regarding long corners and trail braking. You reduce the speed before the corner, you decrease pressure as you get into the corner and add lean angle and keep just a tiny bit of break. However, the corner is so long that the tiny bit of breaking slows you too much and even if you loosen the break the motorcycle keeps slowing due to engine breaking. In these cases I add a tiny bit of acceleration to keep the speed but that changes the bike geometry and I loose a lot of the advantages of this technique. Is there a better way to deal with those? Great video
I think you break to much. That is not trail-breaking, but just breaking in the corner. TB is just touching the breaks, not adjusting your speed much. Don't think you are supposed to get to 0% throttle. Then you can lose the back, and get a really cool Marc Marquez slide, in the corner. 😳😀
I will have to give this a try. I trail brake with the rear only, and use the throttle to hustle quickly around loose gravel. I’ve always been told to stay away from the front brake.
This totally explains why when I feel like I am "riding aggressively" I feel more traction... when I ride harder I tend to brake later and further into the corner!
Love watching your stuff Llel. Perfect TH-cam. Great filming & editing, passionate about the subject and great at passing it on effectively. Sublime stuff. But you know the best bit? That you can do this with your dad. Keep it up and see you when I get round to Level 2!
Maybe a stupid question, but when you talk about trail braking, is this for the front and rear brakes or just the front or just the rear brake,old road rider, but new off road rider, and loving it but will love it more with more experiance.
I live in NZ and locally have very twisty and steep unsealed roads which can have deep gravel or smooth clay. They are often steeply cambered from the crown of the road. Trail braking works exactly as you demonstrate but it must be tuned to what you are riding over. My bike is old, heavy and has road biased rubber. I have to transition from the brakes to the throttle before I get much lean on in a lot of places, often before the apex on corners which wind back on themselves. A few pairs of undies had gone in the bin before I got the balance of brakes and throttle right. A video of what to do when the front cries enough and how to use the throttle to balance and steer the bike through a scary corner would go a bit deeper down the rabbit hole and may save some plastic. Excellent vid, a scary number of riders still consider trail braking to be pointless or dangerous.
Same. I’m Oz and find that steep downhills with a right hander at the bottom with steep camber and loose gravel over clay are particularly challenging. As you’re already braking moderately on the downhill, by the time you get to the corner there isn’t enough cornering capacity or grip to get around without the front end washing out. So you either cut the corner to shorten the turn (bad idea) or run it wide with a high risk of washing out the front under brakes. Either way, arsehole pucker factor is quite high.
Great vid - thanks! I ride "backwards" (no, not that kind of backwards), I start out on gavel, then ride to pavement.I live from 5 to 8 miles away from nearest pavement, depending on which route I take from my home. I ride a dirt bike (street legal / knobbies) a commuter 300 (Mitas E07 rubber) and a bone stock Vstrom 650 with OEM tires. It's always fun to try to remember which bike/tires I'm on from one day to the next. Any tip to help on gravel is appreciated. Thanks again! -Ray, from the wilderness near Durango, CO
I apply the same principle to riding in the rain, although in the rain the front brake is peeled off slightly before the rear. You didn't mention foot peg weighting which I thought would go hand in hand with your excellent video. The reason I mention this is because there are newbies out there that are not aware of weighting the outside foot peg and what it does. Thankyou for sharing 👍
By the way, another thing you do when braking and compressing the fork is shortening the wheelbase, and increasing effective steering-head angle due to the dive in the front. This makes the bike more nimble and in combination with the additional grip you get from the load on the front, is ideal for cornering.
Proper braking is important but it’s secondary to shifting your weight to the inside foot peg (turning left weight the left foot peg, right turn weight the right foot peg). This places your full body weight on the tire contact patch on the inside of the turn.
I found the Karoo 3's and Pirellis I have on now also made a hell of a difference in my confidence to trail brake on gravel.That road in the video is endless in Colombia and a lot more tropical.The other fun part here is red Saprolite mud-add it in to that road in a random manner just for 30-50 meters where there was a landslide.Gravel aint too bad-Red mud will give you 3rd degree skids-in yer keks mind you!
Thanks for this amazing video. Good to know about the trail breaking. Last week I have an accident on my KTM 1290 My front wheel went into a small mountain of loose and deep gravel with a bit of soft sand, and it started moving everywhere like a shimmy/Wobble, I don't remember touching the brakes, I remember keeping the accelerator, but I could not control it and directly to the ground. Can I ask you some questions to help to avoid this in the future, please? 1. what to do in these situations when the front tire start moving/Wobble in gravel 2. were put the body weight in gravel and deep gravel roads? Put the body weight more to the front or in to the read tire like sand? 3. what is the correct setup of the traction control on gravel roads in off-road mode or completely off? 4. my ktm has an adjustable steering damper, I don't know if put it on hard/tighter position is good or rather bad in these situations? Or in gravel/sand roads. Putting it too hard can limit the self-alignment of the front wheel, the same effect as if I were holding it too tight? thanks a lot!!
@@BrakeMagazine Thank you for the reply. An absolute-rule, I like it, much easier to adhere to. Trail braking is something I’ve been doing without really thinking about it, at least to a certain degree, but now it’s time to practice it on purpose - Nice!
Works in a car too I find, especially when it’s wet or there’s snow on the road. You absolutely cannot be harsh with the application and have to feel the weight balance transfer, it makes riding and driving sooooo much smoother
I agree 100% with trail breaking . But my only experience riding BMW Boxers ,was in the early 80s, riding my friends R75 s and R80s in Germany's Black Forest . I was with the Canadian Army during that period and i must admit that seeing somebody trailbreaking a Boxer, made me gringe. Great Video
You might like to add weight to the front on gravel but it's not going to happen, the front wheel will slip before any weight transfers to the front under brakes, the best option is to keep your weight forward so that the rear will let go before the front, some gravel is like ball bearings and the only option is to have control of the front end while the back wheel can drift this will allow you to stay upright. the other option is to have your weight further back, this will make the front wheel slide before the back which will dump you on the ground as quick as a flash.
No need to clutch in unless you're looking to bring the bike to a stop. Depending on the corner, holding a tiny amount of throttle can help to keep the bike out of the awkward ON / OFF throttle zone. Hope that helps.
I totally agree that trail braking on the asphalt is an essential riding skill that all riders would benefit from learning. I am new to ADV biking off-road but I am not yet convinced that the same techniques can be applied as the physics of off road riding are different. However, I am open to considering any techniques that will keep me safer and in control. I have found that rear brake control, clutch control and body position are critical to cornering safely off road. Off road, we don't lean into corners or rely on front tire grip in combination with trail braking (tire grip is the other critical part of loading up the front suspension in a corner), instead, we weight the inside peg, counter-balance over the rear wheel and actually "steer" into the corner by "burping" the clutch and getting a controlled slide on the rear tire - and you can clearly see this is the technique you are actually using at 3:21 from the sliding movement of your rear wheel and your body position weighting the inside peg of the corner. I do agree that applying light front brake on this type of turn certainly would help you maintain even better control, however your clutch body position and rear wheel control is what is actually getting you through that corner safely IMO.
So you're kinda right but you've misunderstood a few key parts. Grips is provided on and off road in two planes. You have left and right, forward and backward and and ton of bits that help. Trail braking off road works exactly the same on and off road for the same reasons. Front wheel grip is always important. So is leaning a bike over. We lean over off road just as we do on road but what ask the bike to do and how we do it changes because of the grip levels. On road, the grip is high so we move off the inside to maintain contact patch and use our weight to help bring the bike around. Off road we lean over and do so by peg pressure not by counter steering. We create lean using footpeg pressure and counter balance the lean with footpeg pressure as you said. This also pressures the tyre into the ground with creates more grip. However, having good weight on the front tyre is really important for turning. Your body position affects this and trail braking affect. The slide you're seeing isn't required. It's fun and a side affect of riding quickly but entirely unnecessary. It also absolutely isn't possible without having some weight on the front tyre.
Not trying to prolong the debate here as I am an off road novice, bust using the pegs and the rear wheel to steer the bike safely off road is hardly just a "fun side effect" it's a legit technique used frequently by many experienced off-road riders and trainers - agreed, it's fun and looks cool (why ADV riding is awesome), but it is also a legit technique: Dusty Wessels (MotoTrek) (3:45 mark) th-cam.com/video/i8rywrWuAqw/w-d-xo.html So I don't think you are wrong about the control that trail braking gives you overall, but I still think braking and cornering off road is dramatically different and employs much different techniques than on the asphalt for sure.
@@The333 @The 333 We're all free to get our information from wherever we want and motorcycle riding technique isn't ubiquitous. However, as some one who isn't a novice I have a few things I disagree with about your ideas. First up, sliding the rear wheel is a 'legit technique' but it's not the best way around any corner. It's complex, nuanced and needs some real understanding to do well. The front wheel and rear being in line for 90% of corners is the best place to start. Secondly, while MotoTrek make some lovely videos, I fundamental disagree with the ideals by Brett and Dusty have had about riding technique. They don't follow good riding principles or efficienct human mechanics. As I said, we're entitled to our ideals and that's an awesome thing.
Thoughts on engine braking vs trail braking?!? I tend just to use my engine and found that on rougher tracks a lower gear gives safer speed and more grunt to roll on that power on exit.
A good point that I was going to raise. I ride a 900 parallel twin on road and have looked into trail braking, but rolling off the throttle before the corner creates engine braking loading the front. So doesn't engine braking do the same thing as using the front brake?
I hope Llewelyn can clarify this, but as far as I understand, engine braking is in many ways a part of trail braking, but a more passive one. Depends on your bike, thumpers have a lot of engine braking and twins less. I would still practice to actively trail front and rear brake in corners, regardless of how much engine braking your bike have - because of many reasons, but one is because you’ll be ready to brake if something appears mid corner, and your proper brakes are loaded and ready.
With ABS and particularly cornering abs this works great on dirt roads. With no abs it can be dangerous because you can wash out your front wheel if it loses traction. Those corners you did where quite gentle but if they get tighter your chance of washout increases assuming you carry speed and brake in the corner. You can get away with little front brake dragging but that means your entry speed is low enough for you to handle the corner with gentle trail braking. That’s been my experience anyway.
@@BrakeMagazine Because while you can practice til the cows come home to know how your bike is going to respond on the surface your practicing on, long stretches of gravel roads add a measure of unpredictably. On gravel roads the road surface will likely vary from place to place and if you carry speed into a corner and you attempt to brake yourself enough to slow the big adventure pig down enough to turn in some spots there’s a good chance your braking resistance on the contact patch coupled with the centrifical forces imparted by the cornering speed will cause you to wash out if you didn’t brake enough first before entering the corner. When cornering on gravel roads that can be rocks/sand/mud/hard pack ABS let’s you still load the front while trail braking thus reducing the risk of front wheel lock which in a corner will cause a washout.
@@anxiousappliance The appropriate degree of trail braking can vary based on the surface, speed and bike characteristics. Unless you know exactly what the road ahead is like, the conditions of the road surface is the unknown. ABS on a heavier bike helps make a correction with less risk of a front end wash out. That’s been my experience. I live and ride in an area with miles and miles of steep mountain gravel roads.
Nice vid - Generally, the same physics are at work on the road, and I trail brake there. I'm definitely going to practice doing this off-road too (need to practice using the rear, which I usually avoid). I did an advanced riding course on the weekend and when the instructor asked me why I was braking into the corner I explained - pretty much what you've said here. He looked at me like I'd grown another head. We discussed it for a while longer, whilst I kept trying to help him understand the physics of trail braking. In the end, he said it wasn't the system they were teaching and insinuated I should not ever brake in the corner, implying heavily that it was a dangerous and pointless thing to do. I'm a bit surprised an instructor didn't really understand the process. Glad my thoughts on the subject have been confirmed here.
@@BrakeMagazine Indeed, it's ubiquitous. Why? Because Police Roadcraft - and more specifically the IPSGA system - have emphasised this for decades (half a century?). Iirc the theory (or the physics, if you prefer) is that if the rider has completed the requisite braking prior to the corner, the chassis and suspension are not dealing with extra forces being introduced whilst in the corner - a situation that could unsettle the bike and lead to dangerous developments at a time when e.g. the tyre's contact-patch isn't optimal (due to lean). The counterargument is that, with trail-braking, said forces are not being introduced whilst in the corner as they've been established prior to corner entry - whatever forces exist are merely being maintained. All I would say is that, when riding on roads on contemporary sports bikes with incredible brakes, it doesn't take much (single!) finger pressure mid-corner for that front wheel to wash out. Personally, I think IPSGA has the edge for road-riding. Get everything done before any serious steering input, and maintain constant throttle through the corner.
@@Unfunny_Username_389 I totally agree with the ideas of 'safe' road riding techniques but the conversation is a lot more complex than that. Most of those courses or systems teach riders to engage in a system based approach, where riders follow a set of rules to ride safely and efficiently. It's a good idea in principle but it only gives you a set of rules with which to deal with the variables. One of the biggest advantages I see from off-road riding skills and learning to trail brake effectively is the capacity to deal with changes quickly in a safe and effective manner. You can't riding off-road well without having a great reaction to every variable. In the teaching I've done over the last ten years, the riders who are heavily ingrained with systems based approaches really struggle to adapt and change their riding. Effectively it's a conversation of, should you make riders safe by giving them a framework, or by teaching them to ride better technically. I think Ideally it would be both with solid education on why they work and when to employ different skills. What do you think?
@@BrakeMagazine I think any rider who treats Police Roadcraft and the IPSGA system as an inflexible, straightjacket approach to bike control has gone very wrong somewhere. Having understood IPSGA properly, the short answer to any question regarding e.g. road positioning, gear selection, braking etc. is always "it depends". Such factors are dependent on the information available to the rider. This will vary - and IPSGA provides ways to sort that information and act on it. Arguably the worst thing about it is the very fact that it's called a "system". More useful terms might be "method", "approach" or "process" - etc.
It's no point trying to learn somethings from people that are noobs them self. That instructor only know how to ride a bike in a open space with out traffic. I had a emergency-break mid corner, some weeks ago. If that be him. He would have wrecked his bike in the back of a dump truck, because he cant break in a corner. Or he swerved in to the other lane and had a front to front with another car or truck. And probably end up in a bag, like very many others that don't know how to use the breaks, anywhere. I also heard that there is a lot of instructors that are beginner riders, that have noting to teach to nobody. So no wonder there are a lot of motorcycle accidents. They have noobs, teaching noobs.
Great video as always! Imho, it would be even greater with a camera angle showing the work with the front brake and the throttle, at least for a noob like me! 😁
Awesome video chap, and explains one of my issues around braking before the corner, then unsettling the bike by coming off the brakes. Will definitely practice this!
All good info. with one caveat: Front wheel traction. With ABS on in the front, less of an issue. With no ABS on in the front, traction is critical. When in doubt about your front wheel traction, best to go rear brake only.
If you ride dirt bike with friends and they start correcting you with all sorts of this kind of advice, one thing that might stop all of that is to let them ride your bike for awhile. Not all bikes handle the same.
There was no mention about what to do with the throttle during the braking in the curve. I would assume the throttle is held on in conjunction with the front(tricky?) and rear brakes to maintain the desired speed. Of course a lot of throttle and a lot of brake would make little sense. So i assume a little of both..?
Great tips! Hits the Demo nicely. Saving Lives is cool! I ride in the Appalachian Mountains on Forest Service/Gravel Rural with mostly blind corners with all types of 2 way traffic (Logging Trucks!!) and stress the importance of these tips to everyone riding with me..
Perhaps someone could clarify for me. After accelerating towards the corner, do you close the throttle completely before dragging the brake? It was not completely clear to me whether there is still some throttle through the corner.
Most of my fellow riders only use rear brake when on the dirt. Doing this in a corner means that you remove some of that weight from the front end thus reduce front tyre grip / traction. Once you get the geometry right and can trust the front end, the front brake makes all the difference.
Great Video, remember not to cut those blind corners in order to favour a better line. At some point another vehicle will be coming the other way. I try to work with my side of the road only, ride it slower if needed. The worst are those left turns, off camber. Blowing a corner is one thing, not good. BUT being hit by another vehicle head on is not an option.
I never liked using trail braking. I use the engine compression from down shifting as a brake and then all throttle control from before the apex all the way through the turn.
@@BrakeMagazine Well to weight the front tire for traction, I sit high up on the tank towards the bars and then when the engine braking makes the rear tire skid, I lean into the turn and throttle on to keep the rear wheel sliding through the turn. Sometimes I use the rear brake to skid the wheel as well, but I don’t brake through the turn.
Awesome information! All my riding is trail/ challenging Enduro and cornering is definitely a weak point on the trail for me for the very reasons you described. I'm going to start practicing this. For some odd reason it seems as right hand turns are more problematic for me. Anyone else get that too?
I disagree. You only have so much grip, front and rear. If you are choosing to brake through the corner you'll use 25% of your frt traction. You also use traction cornering, say 40%. Now let's say a car comes "out of nowhere", or the road tightens up more than you thought it would and you need to get over to your side of the road. So, you brake harder, say 20% and you turn harder, using 20% more traction. Since you don't get more than 100%, you crash! If you'd have done your braking into the corner, releasing the brakes as your suspension is compressing from cornering forces, you can then go through the corner with neutral throttle position or accelerating slightly. You make sure that you are going slower than you could've gone through the corner, to retain a margin of safety. Then you don't have to worry about so many things. I'm not racing on the public roads, so max acceleration isn't the goal. But, when you learn to ride on your own side of the road, smoothly, always believing that a car is coming, you can go very quickly if you choose.
The term “trail” braking I think confuses people, is it a form of braking for trails? Or is it just braking with the rear ie the trailing part of the brake?
Personally, what helped me the most on loose surfaces or off road, was simply keeping 'eyes up' looking as far ahead as is practicable. When looking down close to you, one's focus becomes reactionary and your balance is totally off as the head is down and your body will compensate. It sounds weird, but try it, keep your eyes up focusing ahead and watch how stable the bike becomes and your speed off-road improves.
Yes. For rugged tracks, choose/see your line, look up - well ahead, and ride it. I have ridden tough, rough, rocky or muddy roads on this concept. It takes concentration and focus, sometimes for hours at a time, but it’s worked for me.
Thankyou Llewellyn. At 66 yrs, your vids have improved my riding no end. Have been practicing this and have incorporated it into my daily riding over the last 5 years, off-road and on. Its become and ingrained skill. I feel like a youngster again. Never to old to learn!
Also 66. Bought a little klx230 for the mileage and because I travel some gravel roads. Haven’t ridden since 1981 tho and was deathly afraid of gravel back then so need to build some skills to combat the fear and bad habits. Llewellyn’s explanation of using the brakes, including the front, to load the suspension makes perfect sense. But there’s gravel like this video and then there’s gravel that’s 2-3” deep of 1/2” diameter rounded stones and not a curve in sight. Manitoba, Canada. Cheering you on🍻
How do people say what’s once you’ve fallen off a horse you should get back on it and start doing it again, which I’m gonna do it again. All I want is people to support me as much as I possibly can and make new friends to help me on my journey to do my CBT and get my A license and once of achieved that I want to do the adventure, riding and touring. I’m living on my own. I’m divorced. I’m a big football fan West Ham but I want to try new and fantastic new things if anyone can help me be much appreciated
And I’m 52 years of age
@@geoffgauci7590get yourself a crf or klx and join the trf, a lot of them are in 40s/50s and upwards, you'll learn a lot, have the support and find yourself on great rides, would make a great foundation if you wanted to move onto an adventure bike with bigger trips on your own or again with trf people who also do adventure bike rideouts
I'm reading all the ages here and wish we could hang out! (50y)
Coming from a dirtbike background I found it natural to ride on dirt roads on a adventure bike, I think if you have the opportunity to ride a dirtbike first before going on a big adventure bike you'll find it alot easier when you make that leap.
Most riders that i know (including myself) started with heavy bikes, then lighter, then lighter, then 2T on a track. Riding dirt fast on heavy bikes, like GS1250 does not make sense. It is high price to pay if fail- in money and your heath. In video cornering standing look cool, but these bikes are not designed to ride in attack position and nothing can be changed. I still ride 650cc on gravel, but slow and safe. btw trail braking is good thing on a bike.
@@tomaslight I ride R1250 GSA and I wouldn't be taking those corners on gravel at the speeds he's taking them but I would likely be on my feet rather than my rearend. What I've come to learn about riding a heavy bike offroad is that sometimes you need more speed than the little guys, some times you go slower. It's a little bit different skill set because sometimes the weight helps, sometimes it doesn't. But letting the bike do bike things unhindered is always a good thing and you have to get on your feet to let it move around under you. Rest where appropriate, and a gravel track like that is nice clean stretch of road where a rider can rest a bit if you slow down. A lot less risk of losing traction if you aren't trying to push your grip to it's limits.
I take my GSA on single tracks where 450s and smaller are prefered. Everyone is always amazed at how the big girl can perform. I keep saying it that the real limit of any motorcycle is the rider.
It’s been 3 years that i practice trail braking in most corners on asphalt; i love it; i didn’t knew i could also do it on gravel roads; thanks a lot; i will try it in my next ride; best regards from Montreal.
Same. Looking forward to trying it.
Been riding 50years. You insrtuction makes me feel like a beginner. Fantastic stuff.
Glad to help!
Thank you! This is the BEST explanation of trail braking I've heard yet!
+1
The is hands down the most detailed and thoroughly explained video on this subject that I have seen to date. I see that it is 3 years old. I have seen a dozen other trail - braking videos previously to this and some of those were downright confusing. Great job with the ride behind and other use of screen graphics to help a variety of learners!! Thank you, sir!
Really well explained. The maintaining the "attitude of the bike" is spot on... Work with the suspension, don't fight it.
Yes!
Thank you !
I was always told to never use the front brake cornering ~ trusted my friend and did it !
Didn't lose one corner on the last trip learning & trusting this skill.
I just spent five days of scootering around the remote parts of the states of Utah and Wyoming. The entire time I focused on improving my techniques and this very video kept echoing in my head. While very few turns were as smooth as in the video - without additional factors of concern such as larger lose/embedded boulders, deep sandy ruts, flowing water, mud, washouts, etc. - the technique of trail braking worked like a charm and I’m gradually improving at it.
While fancy foot-work on the rear brake pedal is still developing for me, and later braking is also a skill that needs improving, I feel tremendously more confident in most turns now. Yes, the added traction is indeed a game changer.
I so wish I had been taught about it many years ago.
My sincerest gratitude.
For those who wonder of you can use this technique on a non-ABS bike, you surely can but you need to drag and modulate especially the front brake and very light application on the rear brake, or no rear at all (useful in straight line). Also move forward to put weight on the front, elbows up. Comined with the engine braking as mentioned here, it is more stable that you think even on really loose gravel.
How do these techniques change when the gravel (usually pea-size) is consistently 1--3" deep because it is freshly applied? Same question when the grader has recently gone through and chewed up the hard-pack into 1-4" of loose dirt, stone, etc.? Have already been working on trail braking off-road to help on loose terrain going into tight downhill corners. Good tip!
Pea gravel that deep is deadly. It kinda dependson the depth because it kinda turns to slippery sand 🤣
I’ve been practicing trail braking on the street for some years, with great results. However, I’ve always assumed that the grip levels on gravel roads would be too low to do it there, but will try ASAP.
Btw, one thing that wasn’t explicitly mentioned is to also overlap the braking and throttle. That is, while nearly at the apex apply a small amount of throttle BEFORE letting go of the brake (your brake pressure should be minimal at this point) and then smoothly increase the throttle while letting go of the brake. This way you avoid that slight “hiccup” when switching from braking to applying the gas.
I was wondering about that too. usually that's the part that requires the most skill and practice.
agreed, especially with modern epa compliant bikes that use a fuel cut off on decel which can make the throttle feel a bit snatchy on application. It’s one of those things that’s very hard to master but extremely satisfying when you get it right
Trail braking on the street really goes against any form of UK advanced riding. I wouldn’t bother. If you are trail braking on the street, you are going too fast
@MrYawn1 I have never ridden in the UK, but I see no reason, why trail braking wouldn't be applicable there?
Thanks for this video. I started trail braking on the street a couple of years ago and it made a huge difference in my confidence. I never really considered it on dirt until watching this video the other day. Much to my surprise it felt really good. I'm very excited about practicing it in the future. I'm also shocked at how many people are resistant to trail braking in general. They all seem to argue that it is dangerous and should be reserved for racers on the track. Truth be known we all trail brake with our cars every time we go around a corner. I consider it one of the most important skills to learn and it's not really difficult to learn.
@@shaundisch2020 Tell me you have 0 idea how trailbraking works without telling me you have 0 idea how it works. :)
I have never really thought about it in dirt but it makes sense. Thanks.
I began doing this by trial and error but didn't realize that was the "trail braking" I'd been hearing about until now. Thanks for the clarification.
Same here, I noticed on my chopper that accelerating and braking constantly makes my ride safer. Instead of just riding in the city at a constant speed.
I think that how naturally someone rides a motorcycle depends somewhat on how much they rode a bike as a kid -- most of these instructional videos seem like just common sense.
So this explains why braking in a straight line before the corner then coasting through it is making the bike lose grip. Thankyou. It's taken me a long time to realise this mistake👍
No.. Not lose grip.. It makes the bike more stable.
@@cooleyballs1 Trailbraking undeniably increases the available grip
so what phil said was not wrong.
Thanks, this was exactly what i needed. I just started riding off road and coasting on gravel corners just feels really sketchy. It feels like if i do one wrong movement i wash out. Ill definitely give this a try, makes complete sense from a logic standpoint. Thanks for the clear and to the point video.
Thanks Mike! Let us know how you get on!
This transformed my riding on dirt and gravel in a huge way! I'm much faster and ride with alot more control! Thank you very much!
One thing from my experience is that trail braking is truly something that can only be perfected with practice. It is a perishable skill because you end up losing the "feel" for it the less often times you do it. I always make it a point to trailbrake every corner...and I ride city streets. I am definitely very far from being perfect with it but I enjoy every time I get it right.
Totally agree!
Right on bro!
You mean I have to ride my motorbike more to keep up my skills? Oh what a pity hahaha :D
Hi, best mini tip monday ever! Great video, phenomenal descrition. Thanks a lot
Thanks Ricardo!
Steep Gravel hills with turns still bring me anxiety
Excellent video and explaination! I am coasting into gravel corners and now I know why it feels unsettled. Can't wait until my ankle heals and I start practicing trail braking!
Hope it heals quick!
While having some front brake applied does increase the effective weight and thus grip of the front tyre, it also increases the load, or the amount of grip that's actually being used.
I'm trying to visualize how this feels. Before trail breaking, I would apply both brakes in a straight line before the curve then accelerate out of the curve. So with this technique, do I still slow down before the curve but still leave a little too much speed I know has to be taken up with trail braking in the curve? I'm just trying to prepare my mindset.
Try it on pavement first. It's almost the identical techniques. Find a section of curvy road you know very well and carry a little more speed into the corner than you normally would and use your front brake to finish bringing you down to a comfortable speed. Roll onto the throttle as you release the brake on the way out. Just remember you are not on a race track.
The reason is this: pavement has way more traction and will be way more forgiving if you make a mistake as in not crashing at all. While you're out there you can transition to a groomed gravel road where there shouldn't be any big surprises half way through a corner.
Then hit a familiar trail.
It's best to ramp up a new skill.
I've always has this question regarding long corners and trail braking. You reduce the speed before the corner, you decrease pressure as you get into the corner and add lean angle and keep just a tiny bit of break. However, the corner is so long that the tiny bit of breaking slows you too much and even if you loosen the break the motorcycle keeps slowing due to engine breaking. In these cases I add a tiny bit of acceleration to keep the speed but that changes the bike geometry and I loose a lot of the advantages of this technique. Is there a better way to deal with those?
Great video
I think you break to much. That is not trail-breaking, but just breaking in the corner. TB is just touching the breaks, not adjusting your speed much. Don't think you are supposed to get to 0% throttle. Then you can lose the back, and get a really cool Marc Marquez slide, in the corner. 😳😀
@@Gismo3333so you brake with the throttle open . You need Brake pads and rotors more often with trail braking
Thanks for this video, I'll start working on this on my next ride!
The best. Many thanks. I rode with a group of guys that shunned criticized going into corners. I knew they wrong
Very well explained and the breakdown on the video and graphics helped make this a well demonstrated concept. Thanks a lot.
Thanks and thanks for watching 🙂
I will have to give this a try. I trail brake with the rear only, and use the throttle to hustle quickly around loose gravel. I’ve always been told to stay away from the front brake.
That's interesting? Who told you that?
The front brake is really the primary control for stopping on and off-road 🙂
Brake Magazine Oh it’s used heavily on road, but was told to be very gingerly with it off road.
@@sarahdell4042 If it helps I did a video a few years ago on braking using the front brake 🙂
This totally explains why when I feel like I am "riding aggressively" I feel more traction... when I ride harder I tend to brake later and further into the corner!
That'll be why!
Love watching your stuff Llel. Perfect TH-cam. Great filming & editing, passionate about the subject and great at passing it on effectively. Sublime stuff. But you know the best bit? That you can do this with your dad.
Keep it up and see you when I get round to Level 2!
That sequence at 6:45 where your dad demonstrates is super pedagogical. More of that sort please. Either by rider following or using drone.
You saying his dad could be replaced by a drone? LOL
absolutely this... it was incredibly helpful just to see it in action while it was being explained.
Pedagogical!!!
I ride a 640 ktm which feels big and all the knowledge I can get helps immensely.
Want more grip in the corners, increased accuracy of your lines, less chance of binning it?
Trail Braking.
Great video guys.
Thanks for watching Stephen!
Maybe a stupid question, but when you talk about trail braking, is this for the front and rear brakes or just the front or just the rear brake,old road rider, but new off road rider, and loving it but will love it more with more experiance.
Either front only or both brakes.
You deserve way more subs! Excellent video! Keep it up.
Thanks! I'm working on it 😂
I would call that a curve not a turn. What got me is the 90 degree elbow turns while riding with a group. Curves are quite simple
I live in NZ and locally have very twisty and steep unsealed roads which can have deep gravel or smooth clay. They are often steeply cambered from the crown of the road. Trail braking works exactly as you demonstrate but it must be tuned to what you are riding over. My bike is old, heavy and has road biased rubber. I have to transition from the brakes to the throttle before I get much lean on in a lot of places, often before the apex on corners which wind back on themselves. A few pairs of undies had gone in the bin before I got the balance of brakes and throttle right.
A video of what to do when the front cries enough and how to use the throttle to balance and steer the bike through a scary corner would go a bit deeper down the rabbit hole and may save some plastic.
Excellent vid, a scary number of riders still consider trail braking to be pointless or dangerous.
Same. I’m Oz and find that steep downhills with a right hander at the bottom with steep camber and loose gravel over clay are particularly challenging. As you’re already braking moderately on the downhill, by the time you get to the corner there isn’t enough cornering capacity or grip to get around without the front end washing out. So you either cut the corner to shorten the turn (bad idea) or run it wide with a high risk of washing out the front under brakes. Either way, arsehole pucker factor is quite high.
Great vid - thanks! I ride "backwards" (no, not that kind of backwards), I start out on gavel, then ride to pavement.I live from 5 to 8 miles away from nearest pavement, depending on which route I take from my home. I ride a dirt bike (street legal / knobbies) a commuter 300 (Mitas E07 rubber) and a bone stock Vstrom 650 with OEM tires. It's always fun to try to remember which bike/tires I'm on from one day to the next. Any tip to help on gravel is appreciated. Thanks again! -Ray, from the wilderness near Durango, CO
I apply the same principle to riding in the rain, although in the rain the front brake is peeled off slightly before the rear. You didn't mention foot peg weighting which I thought would go hand in hand with your excellent video. The reason I mention this is because there are newbies out there that are not aware of weighting the outside foot peg and what it does. Thankyou for sharing 👍
You haven't watched the next video in the series yet 😏
Just started doing this on the road, really didn't now I can do the same off road. Thanks for your tips over the years!
Glad to help! Thanks for watching :)
I agree with all you say, but it is funny you used a BMW telelever bike for the demo since those do not compress much under braking!
By the way, another thing you do when braking and compressing the fork is shortening the wheelbase, and increasing effective steering-head angle due to the dive in the front. This makes the bike more nimble and in combination with the additional grip you get from the load on the front, is ideal for cornering.
So well articulated-well done ✅ . The key here it seems is to be extremely gradual in engaging the brakes.
Relatively so yes!
Proper braking is important but it’s secondary to shifting your weight to the inside foot peg (turning left weight the left foot peg, right turn weight the right foot peg). This places your full body weight on the tire contact patch on the inside of the turn.
I'm sorry, but this isn't quite right.
I found the Karoo 3's and Pirellis I have on now also made a hell of a difference in my confidence to trail brake on gravel.That road in the video is endless in Colombia and a lot more tropical.The other fun part here is red Saprolite mud-add it in to that road in a random manner just for 30-50 meters where there was a landslide.Gravel aint too bad-Red mud will give you 3rd degree skids-in yer keks mind you!
I like the tyres on gravel a lot too. They're really nice feeling! That red mud, especially when it's wet it terrifying. We get some of it here too 🤣
Thanks for this amazing video. Good to know about the trail breaking.
Last week I have an accident on my KTM 1290
My front wheel went into a small mountain of loose and deep gravel with a bit of soft sand, and it started moving everywhere like a shimmy/Wobble, I don't remember touching the brakes, I remember keeping the accelerator, but I could not control it and directly to the ground.
Can I ask you some questions to help to avoid this in the future, please?
1. what to do in these situations when the front tire start moving/Wobble in gravel
2. were put the body weight in gravel and deep gravel roads? Put the body weight more to the front or in to the read tire like sand?
3. what is the correct setup of the traction control on gravel roads in off-road mode or completely off?
4. my ktm has an adjustable steering damper, I don't know if put it on hard/tighter position is good or rather bad in these situations? Or in gravel/sand roads. Putting it too hard can limit the self-alignment of the front wheel, the same effect as if I were holding it too tight?
thanks a lot!!
Is trail braking used in offroad competition as well? Like a rally?
And what about much tighter corners?
I use it on every corner, for ever, always 🙂
@@BrakeMagazine Thank you for the reply. An absolute-rule, I like it, much easier to adhere to. Trail braking is something I’ve been doing without really thinking about it, at least to a certain degree, but now it’s time to practice it on purpose - Nice!
Works in a car too I find, especially when it’s wet or there’s snow on the road. You absolutely cannot be harsh with the application and have to feel the weight balance transfer, it makes riding and driving sooooo much smoother
I agree 100% with trail breaking . But my only experience riding BMW Boxers ,was in the early 80s, riding my friends R75 s and R80s in Germany's Black Forest . I was with the Canadian Army during that period and i must admit that seeing somebody trailbreaking a Boxer, made me gringe. Great Video
Glad you liked it! They've changed a bit since then 🤣
Greetings from Lahr, Black Forest, canadian are fine people there! 👍😏😀
You might like to add weight to the front on gravel but it's not going to happen, the front wheel will slip before any weight transfers to the front under brakes, the best option is to keep your weight forward so that the rear will let go before the front, some gravel is like ball bearings and the only option is to have control of the front end while the back wheel can drift this will allow you to stay upright. the other option is to have your weight further back, this will make the front wheel slide before the back which will dump you on the ground as quick as a flash.
As always .Clear and precise thanks for the tip this will be something I will remember.cheers from Australia
Thanks for giving us time!
2 questions : Do u clutch in , when you press both brakes before the apex point ? Do you close the throttle completely before turns ?
No need to clutch in unless you're looking to bring the bike to a stop. Depending on the corner, holding a tiny amount of throttle can help to keep the bike out of the awkward ON / OFF throttle zone.
Hope that helps.
Going to give this a go this weekend. Thanks.
Love to hear how it goes!
One day i would love to adventure ride out in country like that. Absolutely beautiful!!
I agrée this is an overlooked skill… one I am trying to develop. Thanks for this!
I totally agree that trail braking on the asphalt is an essential riding skill that all riders would benefit from learning. I am new to ADV biking off-road but I am not yet convinced that the same techniques can be applied as the physics of off road riding are different. However, I am open to considering any techniques that will keep me safer and in control. I have found that rear brake control, clutch control and body position are critical to cornering safely off road. Off road, we don't lean into corners or rely on front tire grip in combination with trail braking (tire grip is the other critical part of loading up the front suspension in a corner), instead, we weight the inside peg, counter-balance over the rear wheel and actually "steer" into the corner by "burping" the clutch and getting a controlled slide on the rear tire - and you can clearly see this is the technique you are actually using at 3:21 from the sliding movement of your rear wheel and your body position weighting the inside peg of the corner. I do agree that applying light front brake on this type of turn certainly would help you maintain even better control, however your clutch body position and rear wheel control is what is actually getting you through that corner safely IMO.
So you're kinda right but you've misunderstood a few key parts.
Grips is provided on and off road in two planes. You have left and right, forward and backward and and ton of bits that help.
Trail braking off road works exactly the same on and off road for the same reasons. Front wheel grip is always important.
So is leaning a bike over. We lean over off road just as we do on road but what ask the bike to do and how we do it changes because of the grip levels.
On road, the grip is high so we move off the inside to maintain contact patch and use our weight to help bring the bike around.
Off road we lean over and do so by peg pressure not by counter steering. We create lean using footpeg pressure and counter balance the lean with footpeg pressure as you said. This also pressures the tyre into the ground with creates more grip.
However, having good weight on the front tyre is really important for turning. Your body position affects this and trail braking affect.
The slide you're seeing isn't required. It's fun and a side affect of riding quickly but entirely unnecessary. It also absolutely isn't possible without having some weight on the front tyre.
Not trying to prolong the debate here as I am an off road novice, bust using the pegs and the rear wheel to steer the bike safely off road is hardly just a "fun side effect" it's a legit technique used frequently by many experienced off-road riders and trainers - agreed, it's fun and looks cool (why ADV riding is awesome), but it is also a legit technique:
Dusty Wessels (MotoTrek) (3:45 mark)
th-cam.com/video/i8rywrWuAqw/w-d-xo.html
So I don't think you are wrong about the control that trail braking gives you overall, but I still think braking and cornering off road is dramatically different and employs much different techniques than on the asphalt for sure.
@@The333 @The 333 We're all free to get our information from wherever we want and motorcycle riding technique isn't ubiquitous.
However, as some one who isn't a novice I have a few things I disagree with about your ideas. First up, sliding the rear wheel is a 'legit technique' but it's not the best way around any corner. It's complex, nuanced and needs some real understanding to do well. The front wheel and rear being in line for 90% of corners is the best place to start.
Secondly, while MotoTrek make some lovely videos, I fundamental disagree with the ideals by Brett and Dusty have had about riding technique.
They don't follow good riding principles or efficienct human mechanics. As I said, we're entitled to our ideals and that's an awesome thing.
Thoughts on engine braking vs trail braking?!? I tend just to use my engine and found that on rougher tracks a lower gear gives safer speed and more grunt to roll on that power on exit.
A good point that I was going to raise. I ride a 900 parallel twin on road and have looked into trail braking, but rolling off the throttle before the corner creates engine braking loading the front. So doesn't engine braking do the same thing as using the front brake?
I hope Llewelyn can clarify this, but as far as I understand, engine braking is in many ways a part of trail braking, but a more passive one. Depends on your bike, thumpers have a lot of engine braking and twins less. I would still practice to actively trail front and rear brake in corners, regardless of how much engine braking your bike have - because of many reasons, but one is because you’ll be ready to brake if something appears mid corner, and your proper brakes are loaded and ready.
A great vid , I thought tyre pressures may have been mentioned, but maybe thats another topic. Well done.
With ABS and particularly cornering abs this works great on dirt roads. With no abs it can be dangerous because you can wash out your front wheel if it loses traction. Those corners you did where quite gentle but if they get tighter your chance of washout increases assuming you carry speed and brake in the corner. You can get away with little front brake dragging but that means your entry speed is low enough for you to handle the corner with gentle trail braking. That’s been my experience anyway.
Why is it dangerous without ABS? All ABS does it correct mistakes, so if you learn to do it without mistakes you're achieving the same thing. 🙂
@@BrakeMagazine Because while you can practice til the cows come home to know how your bike is going to respond on the surface your practicing on, long stretches of gravel roads add a measure of unpredictably. On gravel roads the road surface will likely vary from place to place and if you carry speed into a corner and you attempt to brake yourself enough to slow the big adventure pig down enough to turn in some spots there’s a good chance your braking resistance on the contact patch coupled with the centrifical forces imparted by the cornering speed will cause you to wash out if you didn’t brake enough first before entering the corner. When cornering on gravel roads that can be rocks/sand/mud/hard pack ABS let’s you still load the front while trail braking thus reducing the risk of front wheel lock which in a corner will cause a washout.
@@T30-z5w Trail braking is specifically meant to avoid what you are talking about. You're already braking - it becomes a matter of degree.
@@anxiousappliance The appropriate degree of trail braking can vary based on the surface, speed and bike characteristics. Unless you know exactly what the road ahead is like, the conditions of the road surface is the unknown. ABS on a heavier bike helps make a correction with less risk of a front end wash out. That’s been my experience. I live and ride in an area with miles and miles of steep mountain gravel roads.
@@T30-z5w That's what I'm saying
Nice vid - Generally, the same physics are at work on the road, and I trail brake there. I'm definitely going to practice doing this off-road too (need to practice using the rear, which I usually avoid). I did an advanced riding course on the weekend and when the instructor asked me why I was braking into the corner I explained - pretty much what you've said here. He looked at me like I'd grown another head. We discussed it for a while longer, whilst I kept trying to help him understand the physics of trail braking. In the end, he said it wasn't the system they were teaching and insinuated I should not ever brake in the corner, implying heavily that it was a dangerous and pointless thing to do. I'm a bit surprised an instructor didn't really understand the process. Glad my thoughts on the subject have been confirmed here.
What you've come across is pretty common in road instructional teaching.
@@BrakeMagazine Indeed, it's ubiquitous. Why? Because Police Roadcraft - and more specifically the IPSGA system - have emphasised this for decades (half a century?). Iirc the theory (or the physics, if you prefer) is that if the rider has completed the requisite braking prior to the corner, the chassis and suspension are not dealing with extra forces being introduced whilst in the corner - a situation that could unsettle the bike and lead to dangerous developments at a time when e.g. the tyre's contact-patch isn't optimal (due to lean).
The counterargument is that, with trail-braking, said forces are not being introduced whilst in the corner as they've been established prior to corner entry - whatever forces exist are merely being maintained.
All I would say is that, when riding on roads on contemporary sports bikes with incredible brakes, it doesn't take much (single!) finger pressure mid-corner for that front wheel to wash out. Personally, I think IPSGA has the edge for road-riding. Get everything done before any serious steering input, and maintain constant throttle through the corner.
@@Unfunny_Username_389 I totally agree with the ideas of 'safe' road riding techniques but the conversation is a lot more complex than that.
Most of those courses or systems teach riders to engage in a system based approach, where riders follow a set of rules to ride safely and efficiently. It's a good idea in principle but it only gives you a set of rules with which to deal with the variables.
One of the biggest advantages I see from off-road riding skills and learning to trail brake effectively is the capacity to deal with changes quickly in a safe and effective manner. You can't riding off-road well without having a great reaction to every variable.
In the teaching I've done over the last ten years, the riders who are heavily ingrained with systems based approaches really struggle to adapt and change their riding.
Effectively it's a conversation of, should you make riders safe by giving them a framework, or by teaching them to ride better technically. I think Ideally it would be both with solid education on why they work and when to employ different skills.
What do you think?
@@BrakeMagazine I think any rider who treats Police Roadcraft and the IPSGA system as an inflexible, straightjacket approach to bike control has gone very wrong somewhere. Having understood IPSGA properly, the short answer to any question regarding e.g. road positioning, gear selection, braking etc. is always "it depends". Such factors are dependent on the information available to the rider. This will vary - and IPSGA provides ways to sort that information and act on it. Arguably the worst thing about it is the very fact that it's called a "system". More useful terms might be "method", "approach" or "process" - etc.
It's no point trying to learn somethings from people that are noobs them self. That instructor only know how to ride a bike in a open space with out traffic. I had a emergency-break mid corner, some weeks ago. If that be him. He would have wrecked his bike in the back of a dump truck, because he cant break in a corner. Or he swerved in to the other lane and had a front to front with another car or truck. And probably end up in a bag, like very many others that don't know how to use the breaks, anywhere.
I also heard that there is a lot of instructors that are beginner riders, that have noting to teach to nobody. So no wonder there are a lot of motorcycle accidents. They have noobs, teaching noobs.
Very good tip. I will practice this a lot!
You got this!
Game changer... Thank you!
You're welcome!
Careful on sandy corners though, keep the momentum up and don't put too much wait on the front
Great video as always! Imho, it would be even greater with a camera angle showing the work with the front brake and the throttle, at least for a noob like me! 😁
Good idea!
Very very interesting!!! Just wondering if it works even on a climb...is that technique applicable? Thank you!!
Fantastic! I love MT Mondays!
I love your profile pic!
LOL! I’m a grumpy sod!
Awesome video chap, and explains one of my issues around braking before the corner, then unsettling the bike by coming off the brakes. Will definitely practice this!
Glad it helped! Maybe we should find a place to practice together 😉
All good info. with one caveat:
Front wheel traction.
With ABS on in the front, less of an issue.
With no ABS on in the front, traction is critical.
When in doubt about your front wheel traction, best to go rear brake only.
Glen, I'm sorry but this isn't advice I agree with. When its slippery use the correct amount of front brake.
very helpful ... thank you.
I wanted to hear more about body positioning over the bike and bike positioning too.
We have other videos for that.
Beautifully explained.
Thanks!
A+. Love mini tip Monday.
Cheers!
If you ride dirt bike with friends and they start correcting you with all sorts of this kind of advice, one thing that might stop all of that is to let them ride your bike for awhile. Not all bikes handle the same.
There was no mention about what to do with the throttle during the braking in the curve. I would assume the throttle is held on in conjunction with the front(tricky?) and rear brakes to maintain the desired speed. Of course a lot of throttle and a lot of brake would make little sense. So i assume a little of both..?
Don't use the front brake with the throttle on. Period. Hope that helps.
BACK IT IN BABY!!!
love taking the Road King out on the gravel
Question from a newbie,, I was told that front trail braking , because rear braking can take pressure off the front tire?
Both brakes, front ever so slightly after the rear. Settles the suspension
Great tips! Hits the Demo nicely. Saving Lives is cool! I ride in the Appalachian Mountains on Forest Service/Gravel Rural with mostly blind corners with all types of 2 way traffic (Logging Trucks!!) and stress the importance of these tips to everyone riding with me..
Thank you for the video. Excellent tips and a skill we can all get better at.
Thanks Giant Loop!
Excellent instructional video as always 👍
So what about ABS and traction control? Should these be on or off when doing this?
Depends on the bike but they can be on. If you brake well, most ABS won’t kick in, especially on the better systems like BMW, KTM etc.
My bike has heavy engine braking. Is it ok to feather the clutch to eliminate engine braking so you have more brake control?
Sure or you can just work with it, or ride a gear higher depending on the speed of the trail
Great video. I have to remind myself to load the front suspension more going into turn. Hope to see more of these off-road tips. Excellent. Kam in USA
We make a fairly large amount of them! Next one in a couple of weeks :D
Great lesson..thanks for video.
Perhaps someone could clarify for me. After accelerating towards the corner, do you close the throttle completely before dragging the brake? It was not completely clear to me whether there is still some throttle through the corner.
No you do not close the throttle to 0% !
Awesome tip video, well done guys! And the comment award of the day goes to..."those people are wrong..." 😁
🤣🤣 I'd been doing some research and it irritated me 😅
Always good content. Thank you.
Cheers Paul. Thanks for watching!
Most of my fellow riders only use rear brake when on the dirt. Doing this in a corner means that you remove some of that weight from the front end thus reduce front tyre grip / traction. Once you get the geometry right and can trust the front end, the front brake makes all the difference.
FACT
Amazing video and advice all the way. Is the clip filmed in Wales?
Yeah it was!
Great video well explained. Thx!
Thanks for watching Steve!
Do you need to use both brakes on the GS? I thought the front also activates the rear.
It does. You don't but it still makes a difference. The order of braking changes how the bike works a lot.
Great Video, remember not to cut those blind corners in order to favour a better line. At some point another vehicle will be coming the other way. I try to work with my side of the road only, ride it slower if needed. The worst are those left turns, off camber. Blowing a corner is one thing, not good. BUT being hit by another vehicle head on is not an option.
Very true!
Are you counter steering while going into the corners on gravel?
I never liked using trail braking. I use the engine compression from down shifting as a brake and then all throttle control from before the apex all the way through the turn.
Why not? How do you determine the speed or solve the problems I mentioned in the video using engine braking?
@@BrakeMagazine Well to weight the front tire for traction, I sit high up on the tank towards the bars and then when the engine braking makes the rear tire skid, I lean into the turn and throttle on to keep the rear wheel sliding through the turn. Sometimes I use the rear brake to skid the wheel as well, but I don’t brake through the turn.
Awesome information! All my riding is trail/ challenging Enduro and cornering is definitely a weak point on the trail for me for the very reasons you described. I'm going to start practicing this. For some odd reason it seems as right hand turns are more problematic for me. Anyone else get that too?
Sure. Keep practicing them and make your corner basics are all right. We have a MTM coming soon on that subject!
My biggest concern is losing the front on gravel in a turn... so im assuming trail breaking, putting more weight on the front stops this happening?
I disagree. You only have so much grip, front and rear. If you are choosing to brake through the corner you'll use 25% of your frt traction. You also use traction cornering, say 40%. Now let's say a car comes "out of nowhere", or the road tightens up more than you thought it would and you need to get over to your side of the road. So, you brake harder, say 20% and you turn harder, using 20% more traction. Since you don't get more than 100%, you crash!
If you'd have done your braking into the corner, releasing the brakes as your suspension is compressing from cornering forces, you can then go through the corner with neutral throttle position or accelerating slightly. You make sure that you are going slower than you could've gone through the corner, to retain a margin of safety. Then you don't have to worry about so many things. I'm not racing on the public roads, so max acceleration isn't the goal. But, when you learn to ride on your own side of the road, smoothly, always believing that a car is coming, you can go very quickly if you choose.
The term “trail” braking I think confuses people, is it a form of braking for trails? Or is it just braking with the rear ie the trailing part of the brake?
I know the point is this w works on gravel, but have you tried this on the street. It works great there, too, while you are getting to the gravel .