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With the Krotox Rampager, if they made it when you charge, you get +1 to the strength, they may made made them a little better and different from the riders
So sad about the change in Strike Team's ability. They used to get buffs when on an objective, which made Breachers the "clear" and Strike the "hold". Now they do very little.
missing a trick with the rampagers - the D3 mortal wounds on charge almost guarantee a few wounds, which almost guarantees a +1 to hit from the detachment, making them hit on 2+ as they are WS3 (with likely an extra pip of AP from a shaper using a strat) also the 12 cheeky ranged shots before the charge can help reduce the target below full They will wreck terminators when you do the math
It’s nice to see people finally recognizing the pathfinders ability for screening infiltrators or turn 1 move blocking. I keep bringing this up to people dissing pathfinders on Reddit and other TH-cam videos and peoples response is that pathfinders are too expensive to do that with or it won’t be useful for every game and blah blah blah pathfinders trash blah blah blah. Try it people just once. You can string them out and guarentee your opponent can’t get early infiltrator or turn one advance into whatever objective either you want to take for yourself or you want to delay them getting on to because you can’t effectively push them off. It’s extremely powerful to have that much control over where your opponent goes in the first turn or 2
First impression from reading the book. Montka detachment with 3 units of breachers and devilfish, 3 units of stealth suits, some ghostkeels, 2 units of the sun forge crisis suits one with coldstar one with farsight, couple of piranhas. Either sky rays or Railsides for anti tank.
Against infantry, yes. But they are talking about the typical high-tier meta, where elites and vehicles dominate. Even with 35 hits(10 flamers average number of attacks), if it is strength 5 and AP 2, you still need a bunch of good roles to take out something like a 5-model Terminator squad(you might kill 2-3 models on average, depending on if they use AoC). Sure, you will absolutely destroy fodder units, and can effective splitfire(and even guide for other units), so they are not a bad unit. But for the highest tier, they will see overall less use than the other 2 variants.
@@ArtofWar40k How long have you got?! Its a long list. I love the 'verse in its entirety, but no matter how long I hear the same rules referenced, I have a memory like a sieve: they're in one ear, and out the other. I understand that the best way to secure them in my noggin is to actually use my many painted figures in a game. But circumstances don't allow that at present. The offer to help is greatly appreciated, but your time would be better spent helping someone who can actually put it to good use. For all that, I'm still an AOW regular. Keep up the great work, lads. all the best, from northern England Pete
I think strike teams will be more useful than minimal, because the support turret exists. Its indirect fire and still 30". Can be really good vs melee that are hiding out of los.
The 30" range of both Pulse Rifles and the Turret(which can only fire if the unit remained stationary), combined with the debuff, would probably make it less desirable for enemy infantry to move within line of sight of them. Meaning even at 80 pts, you could potentially deny some infantry movement without actually doing a lot of damage, simply because they do not want the debuff. The thing is, both of these players focus on a very aggressive style, so it would be rare for enemy infantry to be unegaged and out in the open at any point. They would either be in transports, or already engaged with some of your other forces, or even hiding behind cover for a counter attack(you could potentially hit them indirectly, but it would likely require a 6 to hit unless guided).
The big issue with the suits now is they only get 2 weapons instead of 3. That really cuts the firepower down. I can't see doing anything smaller then a 4 man unit with that limitation in mind. Will have to have a Coldstar to add some damage.
Starscythe is good because it doesn't need support to be good (with x2 flamers). You can set them down and have them pick up about 5 marines (T4/3+) and 14 guardsmen (T3/5+) a turn. And then overwatch the next turn for another round of excellent shooting. That's not bad for 130pts (subject to change).
I assume you are talking about them in retaliation cadre? In 12 inches you pick up ~3.5 marines, in 6 inches 4.67. 14 Guardsmen within 6 inches as well. Tbh it's not terrible, but really depends on what you can target with them. Because they are so squishy and short ranged, that I think you'll probably lose them afterwards. And it's questionable whether or not you'll have made their value back at this point (especially because they also give up bring it down points).
@@theStamax You got that Strategem to give em Sustained Hits 1 against 6-10 bodies and Sustained Hits 2 Against 11+ so don't quite need to get so close.
4+ save. Seems pretty normal to me. Unless he's in a unit, but at that point you're always rolling against the 3+ from regular crisis (which also leads to a 4+ after cover and -1 ap is taken into account). Alone he's just as durable as any other 2+ save unit (well, depends on toughness).
@@Speeds_Gaming_CornerOnly works when he's leading a unit. At the point where you roll against him, he can't be in a unit (Either because he's solo or because his bodyguard died already). There is no way where you can benefit from his rule on his own save.
I have always wondered why nobody played Firesight team. Like, ok, Tetras are faster and have 1 seeker missile, but Firesight has lone op, infiltrate, and has some decent shots, even with precision. At least once, I should have seen him as a replacement for tetras. Is speed really that much of an advantage?? Now I understand, I always read "While guiding a unit" and not "while this unit is guided". Eh... yeah, now I get it.
Coffee poured. Snuggie on, snow outside. Waiting to hear to result from the new codex. Still bummed missed getting online to order new kroot box set because of work.
there are A LOT of kroot boxes on ebay. There is an UK seller seling them for $140 +$20 shipping which is CHEAPER than any US Store lol Rest of the boxes are $180 free shipping. So cheaper than GW. Box sets are way more overpriced than a year or two ago so they never really sell out anymore
Fun, but overall low damage due to BS5+, 0 AP and damage 1. They cant be guided or act as spotters, so that is a problem as well. Against a T3, sv5+ unit(most fodder stuff in cover), you would average about 2 wounds. You would need to attack 3-4 units each time you shoot to get somewhat decent value, but it is still just chip damage on multiple units.
Great review, I can't argue with anything said. I wish the stormsurge had some sort of change to the index. What Would you think it would need to be more viable? I'm trying to think of a unit to compare them too stats and weapons wise. It's a shame for the greater good wasn't made into a less clunky rule as well. Cheers guys. Would be interested in more collabs with Kyle on Tau.
There is only 1 thing I absolutely hate about the book. Losing the swiss army knife ability of Crisis suits. I wish they had more customization. I spent the time to magnetize 33 crisis suits and all their options... that's over 300 parts to magnetize. That does feel like a bit of a slap to the face. Other than that, can't wait. Also, for all those "GW overpowers new stuff so you have to buy it" people. Where is my OP kroot?! I demand the run the meta for at least 3 months now!
So Riptide got nerfed. Also Riptide is 1.5 times his former price now? Can gw finally stop running over coffeetables and proofread their shit? How is anyone getting exited for triptide? I mean everyone is acting like gw obviously just defaulted back to index point costs by accident instead of mfm prices (and will fix it) but do we know for sure? I dont put anything past them at this point
Great review and agree with most of the placement! However, fireknife is nowhere near tournament staple. It’s ability is overlapping and the gun options don’t perform against their elite targets compared to sun forge or retaliation cadre starscythe. Really confused by this grading. Starcythe is much better in retaliation cadre for sure
So I’m just realizing that the Sunforge Crisis is just a much better Eradicator unit. I hope they get priced to match, because Eradicators are already some of the best ant-tank SM has.
They might potentially be a better Eradicator unit, but Sunforge has a much higher minimum buy-in(from what I have seen/heard, it is 165 pts for a unit, 255 pts if you bring an Enforcer Commander), and you have to get closer as well to shoot(12" range weaponry), meaning higher risk/reward play. And then you also have to consider the overall codex. Space Marines have so many tools at their disposal compared to Tau.
You can only use stratagems once per turn except for battle tactics that can be used several times by some abilities, but rapid ingress is not a battle tactic so its max 1 per turn.
Great overview and unit discussion. Loving the sunforge giving us another good anti tank option, especially useful as its a deepstrike option so easier to get to those hiding vehicles. Like many I used a coldstar with a block of crisis with a mix of plasma and cyclic weapons. I completely behind this unit disappearing as it didn't make Tau play how they should, however I am struggling with units to replace this firepower which was great against 2 and 3 wound infantry (along with 2 solo enforcer quad cib commanders I had). I'm really dubious that Fireknifes have the punch. Currently I'm upping my breacher count, and considering a starscythe unit with a commander with some D2 and D3 weapons (who also benefits from the squads -1ap). What are our good Aggressor type unit killers ?
Yeah... Kayon. You need your units at round 3 to do sustained hits, but the thing is... half of my games in 10th edition is pointless to play further turn 2, not much you or your opponent can do at this point. And only 1 in 10 games turn 4 or 5 is worth playing. Turn 1 and 2 is the most important turns to move at position, kill enemy units and score missions. And at turn 1 and 2 cyclic crisis teams was most useful. They die, yes, 1,5 per turn on average, but it was 60 shots with commander s8ap2d2. You can delete dangerous enemy unit per turn with that kind of firepower with that to break the bulk of enemy attack. And it would be more impactful than shooting from turn 3
It seems like there is a significant lack of damage 2 now without cyclics. Seems like our options are burst riptides(meh) or fire knifes which lack ap. Do you think breachers can pick up the slack and ion riptides can pick up the slack and we don't really need damage 2?
Question: You mentioned that the Tiger Shark (the 275 point one) has an impressive alpha strike but falls off after that. At a recent tournament I took one but didn't know that apparently since its base is too big to be wholly within 6'', when it arrives it cannot do anything for the turn. Is there a way to do the alpha strike that you mention that I don't know? I'm curious to hear about it.
Query. Do you think leaning on Stealthsuits and durability (and suppression from strike teams) might swing how much of your forces survive to procc Kauyon? There's also their use as a sacrificial piece in Mont'ka to proc the retaliation strat? IDK, I'm just trying to brainstorm their optimal use.
Yeh, stay positive. Removing your army's finecast models from codex and declawing your favorite units is just change! 200 dollars for 20 kroot models is normal! Don't be negative. Enjoy your kneecaps, while you still have them, or GW will take those too, then sell you the wheel chair as an edition upgrade!
Where are you guys getting that Farsight cant use his 0CP ability for "Shortened Blade"? On his leaked data sheet it says ANY STRATAGEM? So he could use the 0CP thing for literally any stragem in the codex?
@@ArtofWar40k you guys always do such an amazing job. I’m so thankful for you guys! I still think dropping in at 3 inches is worth two CP for sure 😅🫱🏼🫲🏾
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can someone which points we use right now for Tau? in the codex the points are the high and like old ones and the points from monitorum are the ones without the new kroot, which do we use right now?
They were saying that you start with darkstrider in the Devilfish. That means it doesn't die for starting empty, and it also means the Devilfish gers his scout ability, which lets you move it up so that the pathfinders can scout back to it and embark inside of it
Personally im mostly excited about this codex now that i digested it a little, the fact that we only get 4 detachments, and realistically for most players 3 is a disgrace. There really should be at least one more themed around stealth/vanguard segment of the units
Yes check out the balance dataslate on the warhammer community documents section and there is a game wide change to abilities that modify stratagem costs or allow you to use the same strat more than once. The rule restricts such abilities to only work on battle tactic stratagems.
Welcome to our channel! MSU means multiple small units so instead of trying to build a list with a couple expensive but strong resources, you try and have a lot of units all across the board.
@@ArtofWar40kThanks :) Ah, that makes sense. One other question - When talking about the Coldstar you mention taking 3 weapons in addition to the stock heavy burst cannon. Do you feel the extra firepower is worth the tradeoff of not getting the shield generator and weapon support system, or am I massively misinterpreting the datasheet and you get those anyway?
imo it's more of a side grade, riptide is bulkier and can play midfield/push aggressive flanks more efficiently while the fireknives can wait it out and come down when you need them and be a decent backup spotting unit with their inbuilt hit rerolls
What are people actually using for points to play right now? Trying to arrange a game for this weekend and I will *not* be playing another round of kauyon just because GW has a stupid publishing schedule
That's why we focused on the datasheet itself and its rule, how useful it is going to be. In 2 months we will get the points, best to start analyzing right now.
Splitfire is -1 BS, not affected by stormsurge ignoring hit modifiers. The ability only applies to -1 to the roll, not the 'target number' if that makes sense
To "defend" the people disappointed with the codex, I wanna say that there are some big misses in here (definitely other Codices had more, but that's besides the point). I'll go over a few ones below: -The Greater Good still overpenalizing Split Fire. Who in their right mind thought that was a good idea in the first place. -Similarly, why is it still one of the only 2 army rules affected by Battleshock? -Plasma Rifles being nerfed to 18 inches. Why? They were already just competitive with Fusion Blasters -Kauyon as a whole. Has never worked and will never work the way it and Mont'ka are designed. It's pure lazy brute force design (with the 1-3, 3-5 turns). Both detachments need to be fundamentally designed to support the playstyles they are based around and neither of those require these weird turn limits. Either one is always gonna be automatically better depending on the game state. -Kroot datasheets ... they are universally bad damage and surviveability. Yes they can be made okay with points, but it's still a missed opportunity. -Lack of rework for a lot of datasheets (Riptides lacking anti heavy weapons, Broadsides rule not being designed for a post dataslate world, vehicle keyword on too many things, etc.) Is the codex potent and overall decently balanced? Absolutely. But it could have been so much more. None of these complaints are about overall power. It's telling that you two have been in the hobby so long, that you've gotten used to GWs failures and are just happy enough when there's enough good in a book. But there's way too much bad in there as well. And the biggest annoyance is that this wouldn't be half as bad if GW would actually do what other game developers have to do, and rework/balance things in a reasonable amount of time. From their current speed in addressing fundamental issues of datasheets, detachments, factions in 10th, etc., I can't even tell if the problems in codices will ever be fixed. Because the Nid and SM codex certainly haven't had any reworks to their lackluster datasheets/detachments/rules. Up to now barely any datasheets have seen changes and only in the most egregious cases (admech infantry and Grey Knights Dreadnought come to mind, but I may have missed some). There are quite possibly dozens if not hundreds that need the same attention. At this point a lot of people would be happier if their faction and units were even worse than what they are, just so GW actually has to address them (Drukhari really stand out here, which were in such a bad spot, that they gave them a functional and fun detachment). Oh, and don't forget those who actively hope their Codices aren't next, so they are actually written later with more thought put into them (which I can completely understand). So, considering how strong this Codex is, without being overpowered most likely (we'll have to see), I doubt very much that anything they missed while writing the codex will be fixed or improved anytime soon (or possibly ever until 11th). Ultimately I don't even blame the rule writers all that much. Sure they make mistakes, but I genuinely think they are extremely overworked and probably very understaffed, so I can't even blame them for these issues, but man, GW as a whole? Isn't exactly a marvel at game design and fixing their problems.
+1 BS and Ignore Cover are pretty big buffs, especially if you can give it to the majority of your army every turn. I do think Split-fire is over-penalized a bit, now that Crisis Suits are limited to 3(4) models per unit. A -1 to hit(instead of -1 BS) would be ok, as you can negate that with wargear selection for some units, making them feel more specialized and unique. Plasma Rifles are guaranteed 3 damage if they wound and go through the save. Fusion Blasters at range 12-6" can deal between 1-6 damage, so depending on the roll, they will do worse against a lot of targets, and they need to be utilized at much closer ranges in general. That makes Plasma Rifles overall more versatile and reliable. The range reduction is probably to make Missile Pods a decent alternative as the other "versatile and reliable" weapon next to the Plasma Rifle. Range and number of shots vs better rolling and reliable damage. We will have to see the final price points though to determine if it is balanced ok on the actual platforms. Kauyon has worked just fine. It gives you a massive punch up in the later stages, meaning even depleted units can hit relatively hard. Units coming in from reserves also benefit a lot from the massive Sustained Hits2 on all ranged weapons(like a Hammerhead arriving with its Railgun and 2 Seekers). And now the Observer benefits from that part as well(getting Sustained2, rather than Sustained1 when targeting the spotted unit). Kauyon now also have various movement shenanigans to disrupt or intercept the opponent. Kroots are fine. Really. They are not supposed to be fielded in isolation, even in their own detachment(although they will make up the majority there). Getting +1 to hit and +1 to wound on EVERY attack for every Kroot model, once a target is below half strength, combined with the various character abilities, enhancement and Stratagems, can lead to insane damage combos or simply denying the opponent the ability to get onto the field and score meaningful points. Riptides simply have a different identity now. They are no longer supposed to be anti-vehicle or whatever you used them for in 9th(although they can still assist in such kills). This complaint feels more like a "I cant play them the way I used to in a previous edition", rather than looking at how the game as a whole is played now, and what the Tau can bring to the board in this edition.
@@fendelphiThere's a lot of input (thank you for that). I'll try to go over it in order. Yes it's very powerful and as such the whole army HAS to be balanced around it. Basically all their damage calculations are centered around this being on the big damage dealers. The problem is, that it's specifically very punishing on certain units. Especially stuff like Stormsurges, but also Hammerheads for example (where the secondary weapons don't do much, if anything, to tanks). And as you very well know, those are not units you see a lot of. Because a lot of their power (especially Stormsurges) is lost due to their split fire issues. Yes, with Crisis being nerfed, I think this should be fixed. Because CIB split may have been a real problem before, but that's more a unit specific issue rather than the faction rule (tbh I don't think split fire should have ever been so heavily punished. even when CIBs were big pre codex). Plasma Rifles are decent for sure, but usually struggle with reliability against most things. Especially due to the limited shots. I've used them in nearly all my games in 10th and they've never done particularly much. As such I don't think they needed a range nerf. Missile Pots are still kind of bad (Even with the higher range). They are basically decent in Mont'ka, because of the extra ap strat (which pushes them towards reliable). I'm somewhat critical on your Kauyon comment. It's pretty widely accepted how bad Kauyon is as an index detachment. It's one of the reasons Tau had to go down so much, because it was basically Move- Shoot - Move and that's it (so you had one giga crisis blob). It's also not particularly fun not having a detachment rule for most of the game (from personal experience). And yes, they got some ok tricks, but they also lost their most powerful strat and got it replaced with one that's rarely relevant (turn 3+) and one that's certainly neat, but won't carry as hard as the previous Crisis block move shoot move tactics (and I hated that btw, but it was how T'au kinda stayed competitive). As they've discussed in this video, playing Kauyon is like digging yourself out of a hole you start in (and requires very precise tactics for the first 2 turns to minimize losses while maximizing score. One mistake and you're out). Insane Damage Combos? From Kroot? First off, you're not getting the +1 to wound most of the time. The below half strength rule is rarely ever relevant in a meta where units usually get slowly killed. They do not have damage. They can be extremely annoying for sure ... that's basically their detachment. Heck they might even eek out some wins via sheer anti-meta infantry slogging (tbh 120 Kroot with 3 Warshapers for 3 strats is ridiculously annoying to deal with), but damage? No. If they are not meant to be run in isolation, then they should have actual core rule support in the book (aka an army rule and other detachments that work for them). As is, all their rules are in one detachment that doesn't buff T'au at all. Yes, you can bring T'au to fix the holes in pure Kroot (which you can't do anyways at 2000 points), but at that point ... why not just play another, better, detachment. They definitely have some niche applications elsewhere (if their points are lowered). Sticky objectives is quite nice in some detachments and lists. Similarly Kauyon may want the Wayshaper and 2 Farstriders for the screening + redeploy. That's a fair point on Riptides, but it's sort of telling that they ended up at 165p pre-dataslate at their durability. Their shooting is just not good enough relative to their durability. IMO they should be around a 200p unit instead of the weirdly tanky low-mid damage unit we ended up with now. That being said, I'm fine with it either way. But it's always strange if a unit is very tanky for the point cost in that range, because that usually means their shooting is subpar (example Guard. Leman Russ Demolisher at 200p vs the anti tank one at 155p. Both same durability, different weapon and datasheet rule). Lastly, I haven't played in 9th. I've only started in 10th. Tbh 9th sounded awful all around, but that's besides the point. I don't think any of my criticisms really addressed a missing playstyle. It's more about fundamental design failures in the codex. And there are plenty. As someone who's dealt with game design quite a bit, this is not a great performance for a company of GWs size. And, again, I don't mean that these failures happen (because they happen everywhere, for basically any game), but how slowly, if ever, they are addressed.
i like the stealth suits upgrade but honestly you're only spending points for their guide buff. Everything else about them is garbage. hard pass on them.
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With the Krotox Rampager, if they made it when you charge, you get +1 to the strength, they may made made them a little better and different from the riders
Great vid thanks guys!!
Even more excited about the new codex. Now the tough part: choosing how to play this army!
0:00 Sponsors
1:00 Intro
7:05 Commander Shadowsun
10:31 Commander Farsight
14:35 Enforcer Commander
18:53 Coldstar Commander
23:32 Cadre Fireblade
27:43 Ethereal
31:13 Darkstrider
35:53 Strike Teams
39:15 Breacher Teams
41:50 Crisis Battlesuit
42:10 Fireknife Crisis Suits
48:25 Sunforge Crisis Suits
53:40 Starscythe Crisis Suits
58:28 Stealth Suits
1:00:57 Ghostkeel
1:05:21 Pathfinders
1:08:22 Firesight Marksman
1:10:16 Vespid Stingwings
1:14:54 Trail Shaper
1:20:50 War Shaper
1:22:53 Flesh Shaper
1:24:55 Lone Spear
1:28:43 Kroot Carnivores
1:31:18 Krootox Riders
1:33:42 Krootox Rampager
1:36:56 Kroot Hounds
1:39:24 Kroot Farstalkers
1:40:41 Piranha
1:44:26 Broadsides
1:48:42 Riptide Daddy
1:51:47 Hammerhead
1:56:24 Skyray
1:58:26 Devilfish
2:00:52 Planes
2:02:16 Stormsurge
2:03:59 Tidewall
2:04:52 Forgeworld Flyers
2:06:20 R'varna
2:07:10 T'aunar
2:08:18 Tetras
2:10:25 Y'vahra
2:11:32 Thoughts
❤
Thank you!
🐐
I think everyone is missing the true strat, getting re roll wounds when getting out a manta 😎
So sad about the change in Strike Team's ability. They used to get buffs when on an objective, which made Breachers the "clear" and Strike the "hold". Now they do very little.
missing a trick with the rampagers -
the D3 mortal wounds on charge almost guarantee a few wounds,
which almost guarantees a +1 to hit from the detachment,
making them hit on 2+ as they are WS3
(with likely an extra pip of AP from a shaper using a strat)
also the 12 cheeky ranged shots before the charge can help reduce the target below full
They will wreck terminators when you do the math
Watching this some time after it was released... heh.. I like how optimistic some of the takes were
Info Double Missile Pod Suits were indeed called death rain, Double Plasma is Burning Eye
It’s nice to see people finally recognizing the pathfinders ability for screening infiltrators or turn 1 move blocking. I keep bringing this up to people dissing pathfinders on Reddit and other TH-cam videos and peoples response is that pathfinders are too expensive to do that with or it won’t be useful for every game and blah blah blah pathfinders trash blah blah blah. Try it people just once. You can string them out and guarentee your opponent can’t get early infiltrator or turn one advance into whatever objective either you want to take for yourself or you want to delay them getting on to because you can’t effectively push them off. It’s extremely powerful to have that much control over where your opponent goes in the first turn or 2
First impression from reading the book.
Montka detachment with 3 units of breachers and devilfish, 3 units of stealth suits, some ghostkeels, 2 units of the sun forge crisis suits one with coldstar one with farsight, couple of piranhas. Either sky rays or Railsides for anti tank.
~54:00 'There are no horde armies in the meta'.
God bless the Orks if Green Tide gets these guys some play with the sustained hits 2 strat.
I'm a bit sad we didn't get a vehicle detachment ... We have so many cool ones..
Love seeing actual models during these their lists!
Fantastic breakdown guys. Thanks for all the good insights.
Star scythes hit a lot of break points in retaliation if they don’t have the screen they will clear the back field
Against infantry, yes. But they are talking about the typical high-tier meta, where elites and vehicles dominate. Even with 35 hits(10 flamers average number of attacks), if it is strength 5 and AP 2, you still need a bunch of good roles to take out something like a 5-model Terminator squad(you might kill 2-3 models on average, depending on if they use AoC).
Sure, you will absolutely destroy fodder units, and can effective splitfire(and even guide for other units), so they are not a bad unit. But for the highest tier, they will see overall less use than the other 2 variants.
Half of the terminology flies over my head, but I still love having these faction deep dives on my second monitor, while I work.
Which terms, so we can do a better job of explaining them?
@@ArtofWar40k How long have you got?! Its a long list. I love the 'verse in its entirety, but no matter how long I hear the same rules referenced, I have a memory like a sieve: they're in one ear, and out the other.
I understand that the best way to secure them in my noggin is to actually use my many painted figures in a game. But circumstances don't allow that at present.
The offer to help is greatly appreciated, but your time would be better spent helping someone who can actually put it to good use.
For all that, I'm still an AOW regular. Keep up the great work, lads.
all the best, from northern England
Pete
@@ArtofWar40k
It’s the same for me, but that’s because I don’t play tabletop… but for some nerdy reason i need to know the meta 📊 🧠
Kyle Grundy: a man with good opinions.
You humble me good sir ❤
I think strike teams will be more useful than minimal, because the support turret exists. Its indirect fire and still 30". Can be really good vs melee that are hiding out of los.
The 30" range of both Pulse Rifles and the Turret(which can only fire if the unit remained stationary), combined with the debuff, would probably make it less desirable for enemy infantry to move within line of sight of them. Meaning even at 80 pts, you could potentially deny some infantry movement without actually doing a lot of damage, simply because they do not want the debuff.
The thing is, both of these players focus on a very aggressive style, so it would be rare for enemy infantry to be unegaged and out in the open at any point. They would either be in transports, or already engaged with some of your other forces, or even hiding behind cover for a counter attack(you could potentially hit them indirectly, but it would likely require a 6 to hit unless guided).
Thanks for the content guys, always love it
Very good guys +1 for puretide program 👌
Awesome thanks for your support 👍🏻
An army of mechs combined with hordes of kroot beast make me wanna play tau 😂😊
Kroot detachment with backfield fire support maybe, or kroot in the back with mont'ka breacher rush?
Debating now on returning my stormsurge that I recently got. Yet I think he can be situational at times possibly??
If you're just playing locally you can play any unit even if its suboptimal. These rankings are geared for tournament play
Noticed this term--Getting back into 40K from a long break. Calling Units “ TRASH “ how exactly are you using that term?
It basically refers to cheap expendable units. Chaff is another word for it
Thank you, really enjoy your videos. @@ArtofWar40k Liked and Subscribed !
The big issue with the suits now is they only get 2 weapons instead of 3. That really cuts the firepower down. I can't see doing anything smaller then a 4 man unit with that limitation in mind. Will have to have a Coldstar to add some damage.
Starscythe is good because it doesn't need support to be good (with x2 flamers). You can set them down and have them pick up about 5 marines (T4/3+) and 14 guardsmen (T3/5+) a turn. And then overwatch the next turn for another round of excellent shooting.
That's not bad for 130pts (subject to change).
I assume you are talking about them in retaliation cadre? In 12 inches you pick up ~3.5 marines, in 6 inches 4.67. 14 Guardsmen within 6 inches as well.
Tbh it's not terrible, but really depends on what you can target with them. Because they are so squishy and short ranged, that I think you'll probably lose them afterwards. And it's questionable whether or not you'll have made their value back at this point (especially because they also give up bring it down points).
They can be an OK observer for the sunforge
@@theStamax You got that Strategem to give em Sustained Hits 1 against 6-10 bodies and Sustained Hits 2 Against 11+ so don't quite need to get so close.
@@Kingofdragons117 We are talking about Flamers. Sustained won't work for them.
The enforcer has a 2+ save which can be very tanky against ap3 in cover
4+ save. Seems pretty normal to me. Unless he's in a unit, but at that point you're always rolling against the 3+ from regular crisis (which also leads to a 4+ after cover and -1 ap is taken into account).
Alone he's just as durable as any other 2+ save unit (well, depends on toughness).
@@theStamax I would take the odds to take the damage on the commander so he would have a 3+ save from ap 3 when he is in cover
@@theStamax He would be a 3+ save in cover. He reduces AP by 1 and then gets the +1 save from cover.
@@Speeds_Gaming_CornerOnly works when he's leading a unit. At the point where you roll against him, he can't be in a unit (Either because he's solo or because his bodyguard died already).
There is no way where you can benefit from his rule on his own save.
@@xkoto3143you can't assign wounds to a character before the bodyguard unit is wiped out.
Not me running 3 Stormsurges with stealth suits and shadowsun
Ranking without points out, brave!
Yeah we like to take risks but we focus on the abilities and it's potential 😎
I was thinking the same thing haha I guess it's up to us to use the awesome info they provide us 😅
Wrong Tiger shark was put in solid choice but Tiger shark is indeed a solid choice!
I have always wondered why nobody played Firesight team. Like, ok, Tetras are faster and have 1 seeker missile, but Firesight has lone op, infiltrate, and has some decent shots, even with precision. At least once, I should have seen him as a replacement for tetras. Is speed really that much of an advantage??
Now I understand, I always read "While guiding a unit" and not "while this unit is guided".
Eh... yeah, now I get it.
Coffee poured. Snuggie on, snow outside. Waiting to hear to result from the new codex. Still bummed missed getting online to order new kroot box set because of work.
Our sponsor Warpfire Minis still have Kroot Boxsets for order: warpfireminis.com/tau-empire-kroot-hunting-pack-army-set-pre-order/
there are A LOT of kroot boxes on ebay. There is an UK seller seling them for $140 +$20 shipping which is CHEAPER than any US Store lol Rest of the boxes are $180 free shipping. So cheaper than GW. Box sets are way more overpriced than a year or two ago so they never really sell out anymore
Snow...where? I live in Canada and we've just had a week of 19C In March! does anywhere in the world have snow anymore?
@@SLG493 pittsburgh
There’s tons of Kroot Hunt packs here in UK lol
For the Y'vahra in retaliation cadre i'd say it is situational.
Not a Tau player, but super interested in this video so i know what the fuck to look out for at the next tournament 😂
The droneport has a fun ability
Fun, but overall low damage due to BS5+, 0 AP and damage 1. They cant be guided or act as spotters, so that is a problem as well.
Against a T3, sv5+ unit(most fodder stuff in cover), you would average about 2 wounds.
You would need to attack 3-4 units each time you shoot to get somewhat decent value, but it is still just chip damage on multiple units.
@@fendelphi agree, fun - Not good
Great review, I can't argue with anything said. I wish the stormsurge had some sort of change to the index. What Would you think it would need to be more viable? I'm trying to think of a unit to compare them too stats and weapons wise. It's a shame for the greater good wasn't made into a less clunky rule as well. Cheers guys. Would be interested in more collabs with Kyle on Tau.
Really Nice
Shas'Os. I am ready
What is OC or OC2? I have not heard of these acronyms
Objective control
This is the edition with less rerolls
There is only 1 thing I absolutely hate about the book. Losing the swiss army knife ability of Crisis suits. I wish they had more customization. I spent the time to magnetize 33 crisis suits and all their options... that's over 300 parts to magnetize. That does feel like a bit of a slap to the face. Other than that, can't wait.
Also, for all those "GW overpowers new stuff so you have to buy it" people. Where is my OP kroot?! I demand the run the meta for at least 3 months now!
So Riptide got nerfed. Also Riptide is 1.5 times his former price now? Can gw finally stop running over coffeetables and proofread their shit? How is anyone getting exited for triptide? I mean everyone is acting like gw obviously just defaulted back to index point costs by accident instead of mfm prices (and will fix it) but do we know for sure? I dont put anything past them at this point
you guys are great
Farsight still kinda ass, needs a rule or something where if he's leading a unit they can equip fusion blades or something
Great review and agree with most of the placement!
However, fireknife is nowhere near tournament staple.
It’s ability is overlapping and the gun options don’t perform against their elite targets compared to sun forge or retaliation cadre starscythe.
Really confused by this grading. Starcythe is much better in retaliation cadre for sure
So I’m just realizing that the Sunforge Crisis is just a much better Eradicator unit. I hope they get priced to match, because Eradicators are already some of the best ant-tank SM has.
They also give up 6 secondary points
They might potentially be a better Eradicator unit, but Sunforge has a much higher minimum buy-in(from what I have seen/heard, it is 165 pts for a unit, 255 pts if you bring an Enforcer Commander), and you have to get closer as well to shoot(12" range weaponry), meaning higher risk/reward play.
And then you also have to consider the overall codex. Space Marines have so many tools at their disposal compared to Tau.
Someone has to address the major issue with the Montka assault mechanic. Rules as written you can't guide units that have advanced?
Question for Richard. If you have multiple stealth suit teams can they all used their homing beacon ability in the same turn?
You can only use stratagems once per turn except for battle tactics that can be used several times by some abilities, but rapid ingress is not a battle tactic so its max 1 per turn.
Great overview and unit discussion.
Loving the sunforge giving us another good anti tank option, especially useful as its a deepstrike option so easier to get to those hiding vehicles.
Like many I used a coldstar with a block of crisis with a mix of plasma and cyclic weapons. I completely behind this unit disappearing as it didn't make Tau play how they should, however I am struggling with units to replace this firepower which was great against 2 and 3 wound infantry (along with 2 solo enforcer quad cib commanders I had). I'm really dubious that Fireknifes have the punch. Currently I'm upping my breacher count, and considering a starscythe unit with a commander with some D2 and D3 weapons (who also benefits from the squads -1ap).
What are our good Aggressor type unit killers ?
I really wish they gave Plasma Rifles Rapid Fire to bump the damage up.
Yeah... Kayon. You need your units at round 3 to do sustained hits, but the thing is... half of my games in 10th edition is pointless to play further turn 2, not much you or your opponent can do at this point. And only 1 in 10 games turn 4 or 5 is worth playing. Turn 1 and 2 is the most important turns to move at position, kill enemy units and score missions. And at turn 1 and 2 cyclic crisis teams was most useful. They die, yes, 1,5 per turn on average, but it was 60 shots with commander s8ap2d2. You can delete dangerous enemy unit per turn with that kind of firepower with that to break the bulk of enemy attack. And it would be more impactful than shooting from turn 3
It seems like there is a significant lack of damage 2 now without cyclics. Seems like our options are burst riptides(meh) or fire knifes which lack ap.
Do you think breachers can pick up the slack and ion riptides can pick up the slack and we don't really need damage 2?
Question: You mentioned that the Tiger Shark (the 275 point one) has an impressive alpha strike but falls off after that. At a recent tournament I took one but didn't know that apparently since its base is too big to be wholly within 6'', when it arrives it cannot do anything for the turn. Is there a way to do the alpha strike that you mention that I don't know? I'm curious to hear about it.
I think missile pods could have been D3 shots and plasma rifles get 2 shots.
Personally I would rate the Fireknife lower on the list.
Query. Do you think leaning on Stealthsuits and durability (and suppression from strike teams) might swing how much of your forces survive to procc Kauyon?
There's also their use as a sacrificial piece in Mont'ka to proc the retaliation strat? IDK, I'm just trying to brainstorm their optimal use.
Yeh, stay positive. Removing your army's finecast models from codex and declawing your favorite units is just change! 200 dollars for 20 kroot models is normal! Don't be negative. Enjoy your kneecaps, while you still have them, or GW will take those too, then sell you the wheel chair as an edition upgrade!
Tried my first match with retaliation cadre into guard today, and so far it’s going bad. Like really bad.
I’m confused on scout at 1:06:00
Are you able to scout INTO a vehicle on turn one? Or can the vehicle scout because scout models are inside?
Where are you guys getting that Farsight cant use his 0CP ability for "Shortened Blade"? On his leaked data sheet it says ANY STRATAGEM? So he could use the 0CP thing for literally any stragem in the codex?
The Balance Dataslate that dictates additional matched play rules on Warhammer community downloads.
@@ArtofWar40k DAMN! thank you so much!
You're welcome!@@WarhammerDad1
@@ArtofWar40k you guys always do such an amazing job. I’m so thankful for you guys! I still think dropping in at 3 inches is worth two CP for sure 😅🫱🏼🫲🏾
Just can't find the discord
If you subscribed here on TH-cam simply login to your discord go to user settings and then connections, click the TH-cam icon and follow the steps to sync your accounts and be added to the server.
can someone which points we use right now for Tau? in the codex the points are the high and like old ones and the points from monitorum are the ones without the new kroot, which do we use right now?
The codex says to use the current MFM. There will be a new one when the codex officially releases in the future.
Do Crisis units have a Maximum number o 3?
Yes
Unfortunately now they are a max of 3 per unit, but you can technically bring up to 9 units of them now (3 of each of the 3 types).
Hi, Could you detail the Pathfinder/devilfish infiltration/scout trick? I remember none transport can begin unocuppied. Thanks a lot
They were saying that you start with darkstrider in the Devilfish. That means it doesn't die for starting empty, and it also means the Devilfish gers his scout ability, which lets you move it up so that the pathfinders can scout back to it and embark inside of it
th-cam.com/video/izI8RpekkKA/w-d-xo.html
Personally im mostly excited about this codex now that i digested it a little, the fact that we only get 4 detachments, and realistically for most players 3 is a disgrace. There really should be at least one more themed around stealth/vanguard segment of the units
Agreed. I'm in the exact same place, excited about most of what we got but salty as hell they snubbed us like that on content.
11:25 am i missing something why can you only use Farsight's ability on Arrokan Protocal for Retaliation Cadre?
Yes check out the balance dataslate on the warhammer community documents section and there is a game wide change to abilities that modify stratagem costs or allow you to use the same strat more than once. The rule restricts such abilities to only work on battle tactic stratagems.
I couldn't disagree more with your assessment of vespids. The bug bois sre unstoppable.
Ok, rookie question, you refer to Tau as MSU a few times. What does that mean?
Welcome to our channel! MSU means multiple small units so instead of trying to build a list with a couple expensive but strong resources, you try and have a lot of units all across the board.
@@ArtofWar40kThanks :) Ah, that makes sense.
One other question - When talking about the Coldstar you mention taking 3 weapons in addition to the stock heavy burst cannon. Do you feel the extra firepower is worth the tradeoff of not getting the shield generator and weapon support system, or am I massively misinterpreting the datasheet and you get those anyway?
Isn't Fireknife unit totally outclassed by Riptide?
imo it's more of a side grade, riptide is bulkier and can play midfield/push aggressive flanks more efficiently while the fireknives can wait it out and come down when you need them and be a decent backup spotting unit with their inbuilt hit rerolls
how are you getting -1 damage on the tetras?
What are people actually using for points to play right now? Trying to arrange a game for this weekend and I will *not* be playing another round of kauyon just because GW has a stupid publishing schedule
Most people are using the current MFM for units that already have MFM points. Any new units you kinda have to use the codex pts for now
@ArtofWar40k thanks for the reply! That was where I was leaning myself but its nice to have some consensus to back the plan up
Yo guys, it's actually useless a tier list without knowing the points. Just my 2 cents and greetings from Europe!
That's why we focused on the datasheet itself and its rule, how useful it is going to be. In 2 months we will get the points, best to start analyzing right now.
So sad the taunar is no battlesuit for the retaliation cadre
Stormsurge can ignore all modifiers to the hit roll so he can indeed split fire without getting the -1. At least that's what I thought.
Splitfire is -1 BS, not affected by stormsurge ignoring hit modifiers. The ability only applies to -1 to the roll, not the 'target number' if that makes sense
To "defend" the people disappointed with the codex, I wanna say that there are some big misses in here (definitely other Codices had more, but that's besides the point). I'll go over a few ones below:
-The Greater Good still overpenalizing Split Fire. Who in their right mind thought that was a good idea in the first place.
-Similarly, why is it still one of the only 2 army rules affected by Battleshock?
-Plasma Rifles being nerfed to 18 inches. Why? They were already just competitive with Fusion Blasters
-Kauyon as a whole. Has never worked and will never work the way it and Mont'ka are designed. It's pure lazy brute force design (with the 1-3, 3-5 turns). Both detachments need to be fundamentally designed to support the playstyles they are based around and neither of those require these weird turn limits. Either one is always gonna be automatically better depending on the game state.
-Kroot datasheets ... they are universally bad damage and surviveability. Yes they can be made okay with points, but it's still a missed opportunity.
-Lack of rework for a lot of datasheets (Riptides lacking anti heavy weapons, Broadsides rule not being designed for a post dataslate world, vehicle keyword on too many things, etc.)
Is the codex potent and overall decently balanced? Absolutely. But it could have been so much more. None of these complaints are about overall power. It's telling that you two have been in the hobby so long, that you've gotten used to GWs failures and are just happy enough when there's enough good in a book. But there's way too much bad in there as well.
And the biggest annoyance is that this wouldn't be half as bad if GW would actually do what other game developers have to do, and rework/balance things in a reasonable amount of time. From their current speed in addressing fundamental issues of datasheets, detachments, factions in 10th, etc., I can't even tell if the problems in codices will ever be fixed. Because the Nid and SM codex certainly haven't had any reworks to their lackluster datasheets/detachments/rules.
Up to now barely any datasheets have seen changes and only in the most egregious cases (admech infantry and Grey Knights Dreadnought come to mind, but I may have missed some). There are quite possibly dozens if not hundreds that need the same attention. At this point a lot of people would be happier if their faction and units were even worse than what they are, just so GW actually has to address them (Drukhari really stand out here, which were in such a bad spot, that they gave them a functional and fun detachment). Oh, and don't forget those who actively hope their Codices aren't next, so they are actually written later with more thought put into them (which I can completely understand).
So, considering how strong this Codex is, without being overpowered most likely (we'll have to see), I doubt very much that anything they missed while writing the codex will be fixed or improved anytime soon (or possibly ever until 11th).
Ultimately I don't even blame the rule writers all that much. Sure they make mistakes, but I genuinely think they are extremely overworked and probably very understaffed, so I can't even blame them for these issues, but man, GW as a whole? Isn't exactly a marvel at game design and fixing their problems.
+1 BS and Ignore Cover are pretty big buffs, especially if you can give it to the majority of your army every turn. I do think Split-fire is over-penalized a bit, now that Crisis Suits are limited to 3(4) models per unit. A -1 to hit(instead of -1 BS) would be ok, as you can negate that with wargear selection for some units, making them feel more specialized and unique.
Plasma Rifles are guaranteed 3 damage if they wound and go through the save. Fusion Blasters at range 12-6" can deal between 1-6 damage, so depending on the roll, they will do worse against a lot of targets, and they need to be utilized at much closer ranges in general. That makes Plasma Rifles overall more versatile and reliable. The range reduction is probably to make Missile Pods a decent alternative as the other "versatile and reliable" weapon next to the Plasma Rifle. Range and number of shots vs better rolling and reliable damage. We will have to see the final price points though to determine if it is balanced ok on the actual platforms.
Kauyon has worked just fine. It gives you a massive punch up in the later stages, meaning even depleted units can hit relatively hard. Units coming in from reserves also benefit a lot from the massive Sustained Hits2 on all ranged weapons(like a Hammerhead arriving with its Railgun and 2 Seekers). And now the Observer benefits from that part as well(getting Sustained2, rather than Sustained1 when targeting the spotted unit). Kauyon now also have various movement shenanigans to disrupt or intercept the opponent.
Kroots are fine. Really. They are not supposed to be fielded in isolation, even in their own detachment(although they will make up the majority there). Getting +1 to hit and +1 to wound on EVERY attack for every Kroot model, once a target is below half strength, combined with the various character abilities, enhancement and Stratagems, can lead to insane damage combos or simply denying the opponent the ability to get onto the field and score meaningful points.
Riptides simply have a different identity now. They are no longer supposed to be anti-vehicle or whatever you used them for in 9th(although they can still assist in such kills).
This complaint feels more like a "I cant play them the way I used to in a previous edition", rather than looking at how the game as a whole is played now, and what the Tau can bring to the board in this edition.
@@fendelphiThere's a lot of input (thank you for that). I'll try to go over it in order.
Yes it's very powerful and as such the whole army HAS to be balanced around it. Basically all their damage calculations are centered around this being on the big damage dealers. The problem is, that it's specifically very punishing on certain units. Especially stuff like Stormsurges, but also Hammerheads for example (where the secondary weapons don't do much, if anything, to tanks). And as you very well know, those are not units you see a lot of. Because a lot of their power (especially Stormsurges) is lost due to their split fire issues. Yes, with Crisis being nerfed, I think this should be fixed. Because CIB split may have been a real problem before, but that's more a unit specific issue rather than the faction rule (tbh I don't think split fire should have ever been so heavily punished. even when CIBs were big pre codex).
Plasma Rifles are decent for sure, but usually struggle with reliability against most things. Especially due to the limited shots. I've used them in nearly all my games in 10th and they've never done particularly much. As such I don't think they needed a range nerf. Missile Pots are still kind of bad (Even with the higher range). They are basically decent in Mont'ka, because of the extra ap strat (which pushes them towards reliable).
I'm somewhat critical on your Kauyon comment. It's pretty widely accepted how bad Kauyon is as an index detachment. It's one of the reasons Tau had to go down so much, because it was basically Move- Shoot - Move and that's it (so you had one giga crisis blob). It's also not particularly fun not having a detachment rule for most of the game (from personal experience). And yes, they got some ok tricks, but they also lost their most powerful strat and got it replaced with one that's rarely relevant (turn 3+) and one that's certainly neat, but won't carry as hard as the previous Crisis block move shoot move tactics (and I hated that btw, but it was how T'au kinda stayed competitive). As they've discussed in this video, playing Kauyon is like digging yourself out of a hole you start in (and requires very precise tactics for the first 2 turns to minimize losses while maximizing score. One mistake and you're out).
Insane Damage Combos? From Kroot? First off, you're not getting the +1 to wound most of the time. The below half strength rule is rarely ever relevant in a meta where units usually get slowly killed. They do not have damage. They can be extremely annoying for sure ... that's basically their detachment. Heck they might even eek out some wins via sheer anti-meta infantry slogging (tbh 120 Kroot with 3 Warshapers for 3 strats is ridiculously annoying to deal with), but damage? No. If they are not meant to be run in isolation, then they should have actual core rule support in the book (aka an army rule and other detachments that work for them). As is, all their rules are in one detachment that doesn't buff T'au at all. Yes, you can bring T'au to fix the holes in pure Kroot (which you can't do anyways at 2000 points), but at that point ... why not just play another, better, detachment.
They definitely have some niche applications elsewhere (if their points are lowered). Sticky objectives is quite nice in some detachments and lists. Similarly Kauyon may want the Wayshaper and 2 Farstriders for the screening + redeploy.
That's a fair point on Riptides, but it's sort of telling that they ended up at 165p pre-dataslate at their durability. Their shooting is just not good enough relative to their durability. IMO they should be around a 200p unit instead of the weirdly tanky low-mid damage unit we ended up with now. That being said, I'm fine with it either way. But it's always strange if a unit is very tanky for the point cost in that range, because that usually means their shooting is subpar (example Guard. Leman Russ Demolisher at 200p vs the anti tank one at 155p. Both same durability, different weapon and datasheet rule).
Lastly, I haven't played in 9th. I've only started in 10th. Tbh 9th sounded awful all around, but that's besides the point. I don't think any of my criticisms really addressed a missing playstyle. It's more about fundamental design failures in the codex. And there are plenty. As someone who's dealt with game design quite a bit, this is not a great performance for a company of GWs size. And, again, I don't mean that these failures happen (because they happen everywhere, for basically any game), but how slowly, if ever, they are addressed.
The Ta’unar! 😂
I don't mean to be 'that guy', but you've spelt ranged as 'rainged' 😂
I shall let Q know!
Let's push Kroot to the top!
i like the stealth suits upgrade but honestly you're only spending points for their guide buff. Everything else about them is garbage. hard pass on them.
Lol. Pretty bad tiers list.
These are probably the best two Tau players in the world right now.
Tau won't be winning any tournaments anytime soon with this codex, that's for sure. Lackluster, boring, no teeth.
🤣