A video taken from a private lesson on single rapier. Its a joy to fence in outdoor areas as applying footwork becomes more interesting outside of a smooth sports hall.
I know this is late but I’m pretty sure Destreza was designed specifically to counter the Italian rapier of that time. Not sure about how it would hold up against modern forms
@@EpicurusWasRight you are correct, it was designed as a counter to Italian fencers at the time (I’m new to a Destreza fencing school so the theory is still fresh in my memory) It has its origins in side sword duelling so thats why you see more cuts with these fencers. Fun fact: shorter blades were more favourable among these Iberian fencers as it was considered manlier being closer to the enemy On the modern fencing part, my instructors mentioned a HEMA event in Europe that had newly arrived Russian Competitors who wore reenactment gear and used modern fencing styles. Beat up the HEMA competitors in terms of scores and pissed everyone off XD Sounds like a really fun story, but I never bothered following up on it so im not sure how true it is myself. I just find it funny
We study a Spanish Rapier art known as La Verdadera Destreza which makes use of multiple cuts and thrusting. A rapier will and can cut, not as deep as a broader heavier blade but enough to take a hand or cause severe lacerations on the face/chest. Thrusting is primary but not always the best option. Epee would be the closest of the modern sport fencing to rapier fencing, also Olympic or classical fencing has a lot of concepts that are the same. Timing, distance, some footwork/ blade work etc :)
I just returned from Spain where i had a pleasure to study some originals and i have to say that it depends on period you are talking about. The rapiers that Rada most likely used, can't slash for sh*t, yeah in the head they can cause minor injuries, neck can work. Other? Not so much (maybe some tendoms with big draw/push while cutting). Carranza's period ones are on the other hand very very close to normal one-handed swords of eralier period and can do that pretty much perfectly. Rapier evolution is long and colorfull. Some can cut others can't really. Some are short orther way to long.... it's not wise to sum it up into something like "verdadera use cuts, so they can cut...." some authors didn't really used cuts some did, it may not only be personal preference, but also capability of certain weapon they used. Rada's period rapier i handled on the other hand explained to me why he has so many parts in Atajo, it has superior presence on strong part of the blade to anything i have ever seen.... it just gives you one without any effort.
Hi William, Its true that earlier swords used by Corenza or Pacheco had a broader cutting blade (similar to a side sword) which allowed for effective cutting. Rada's blades are primarily thrust orientated and less effective in the cut (they will not chop a limb off or create deep gashes) however this is not to say that cuts implemented are ineffective. Rada works from the Atajo as this is the way for anyone practicing the art of dexterity, in his treaties he explains a number of ways to use the cut in order to manipulate the opponents blade and perform cuts. Cuts do not need to kill to do their job (this is the assumption of many) as often then not they are simple used to create an opening or cause a debilitating wound example: taking the hand or causing bleeding. As far as evolution is concerned, yes rapiers evolved to fit the needs of the time period, however from 16th to early 17th centuries the most rapiers (or simple swords) still maintained its ability to cut, again the cut dose not need to kill often it simple sets up a line for a thrust. As far as summing it up being wise or not, in Destreza cuts are in the treaties and are implemented quite often in Rada (specifically the system we study) it just depends on the way you use them. Good question and I hope you enjoyed your trip to Spain.
Yeah the trip was amazing. I planed it for a long time. I visited a lot of lessons by local HEMA guys and learned a lot. Met some Spanish to Spanish translators and discussed a lot of stuff and learned a lot about different terms and so on. Met some blacksmiths that create replicas. And since i am Museum/Gallery restaurator-conservation worker specialized on weapons and machinery i used all i could to handle original swords, which worked as well. The ammount of informations i bring with me back will take me months (maybe years) to absorb properly. One unexpected yet amazing thing that happend was that when i went from museum where i handled two originals to HEMA club there were waiting these exact two swords for me (replicas) as surprise. The opportunity to handle replica after the original (so you know how accurate it is) and fence with it was.... just life-changing. I am not trying to convince you that some Spanish author didn't used cuts. That would not be true. But i have selected Rada and Carranza for purpose. They are on the other parts of the scale. Rada's period rapier is narrow and thick as hell (for third of the blade it is thicker than most ricassos from other time) it cannot cut very effectively. I believe that is reason why his cuts are aimed either to eye or neck. Other than that he cuts to gain controll of either weapon or weapon-arm. Otherwise it would be very hard to cause any injury with it in my opinion especially in period clothing. (Btw. in Spain a lot of clubs that focus on Rada's teachings do not count cuts/slashes to other area than head/neck for that reason) You may not agree, but it is at least for long debate. (unfortunately the online collection is down fow now so i can't post it here.. if i remember i will upload it later) But simply put last quater of 17th century (which is Rada's time as he published 1705) is time where rapier were the most narrow and the thickiest. I also do not mean that Verdadera authors do not work from Atajo or anything like that. Just saying that compared to the authors before him, Rada has far more complicated system of it. And once again his period weapon type suggest possible reason why. There are many more different things between authors that would be amazing to analyze. Like Why Ettenhard do not have low planes of attack while Rada does? I have heard something french out of tempo attacks, but it is just rumor that have no proof so i will not write it here. Anyway good job, keep the videos comming. Have fun. edit: Still do not work and i have training soon..... so i will use this weapon as example, it was very similar to this: www.sailorinsaddle.com/product.aspx?id=1384 .... sorry if someone take it bad.
Great to hear, regular trips to Spain are a must! handling originals is the best way to learn. In regards to Rada, we are in agreement, in fact I think we are saying the same thing. I have used replicas of radas rapier and even though it is a predominantly thrust orientated weapon and system it still has the ability to cause lacerations to the head,neck or hand, enough to distract or disarm an opponent,. The chest is another story however we feel that if one were to land then it should be counted, as we fight against other systems using different blade typology, to neglect the hit would form bad habits. Radas system involves working through the Atajo using the medio to position yourself in a more favorable angle while controlling the opponents blade in one of the two defensive plans, cutting simple forms through this manipulation at times, and leads to openings or movements of conclusion. I am aware of the date of publishing on the treaties as our school is part of Academia Da Espada under our teacher Ton Puey which enables us to delve deeper into the subject. I would not say Rada is more complicated, His treaties is just more complete if at times easier for example the addition of a 3rd medio which helps bridge the gab in distances. Something that was absent from prior treaties. Yes! its quite the rabbit hole when you get started and would take many more post to even scrape the surface, especially with authors disagreeing with one another. But its a journey well worth taking so I wish you look in your studies :) No one takes it bad, its always a pleasure to have a friendly debate online. Thank you and enjoy the training!
Very entertaining. You two are fun to watch.
Where did you guys get your swords?
Question: how does Destreza fair against Italian rapier forms?
The Art performs well, depending on the practitioner and context of course.
I know this is late but I’m pretty sure Destreza was designed specifically to counter the Italian rapier of that time. Not sure about how it would hold up against modern forms
@@EpicurusWasRight you are correct, it was designed as a counter to Italian fencers at the time (I’m new to a Destreza fencing school so the theory is still fresh in my memory)
It has its origins in side sword duelling so thats why you see more cuts with these fencers.
Fun fact: shorter blades were more favourable among these Iberian fencers as it was considered manlier being closer to the enemy
On the modern fencing part, my instructors mentioned a HEMA event in Europe that had newly arrived Russian Competitors who wore reenactment gear and used modern fencing styles. Beat up the HEMA competitors in terms of scores and pissed everyone off XD
Sounds like a really fun story, but I never bothered following up on it so im not sure how true it is myself. I just find it funny
@@cheesingiron3145 sounds like that was Swordfish 2017 or so, Novichenko was the main fencer I think that caused some discourse. He got 2nd
Geometry looks similar to modern epee sport fencing. There's some slashing going on. Rapier has a sharp edge?
We study a Spanish Rapier art known as La Verdadera Destreza which makes use of multiple cuts and thrusting. A rapier will and can cut, not as deep as a broader heavier blade but enough to take a hand or cause severe lacerations on the face/chest. Thrusting is primary but not always the best option.
Epee would be the closest of the modern sport fencing to rapier fencing, also Olympic or classical fencing has a lot of concepts that are the same. Timing, distance, some footwork/ blade work etc :)
I just returned from Spain where i had a pleasure to study some originals and i have to say that it depends on period you are talking about. The rapiers that Rada most likely used, can't slash for sh*t, yeah in the head they can cause minor injuries, neck can work. Other? Not so much (maybe some tendoms with big draw/push while cutting). Carranza's period ones are on the other hand very very close to normal one-handed swords of eralier period and can do that pretty much perfectly.
Rapier evolution is long and colorfull. Some can cut others can't really. Some are short orther way to long.... it's not wise to sum it up into something like "verdadera use cuts, so they can cut...." some authors didn't really used cuts some did, it may not only be personal preference, but also capability of certain weapon they used. Rada's period rapier i handled on the other hand explained to me why he has so many parts in Atajo, it has superior presence on strong part of the blade to anything i have ever seen.... it just gives you one without any effort.
Hi William,
Its true that earlier swords used by Corenza or Pacheco had a broader cutting blade (similar to a side sword) which allowed for effective cutting. Rada's blades are primarily thrust orientated and less effective in the cut (they will not chop a limb off or create deep gashes) however this is not to say that cuts implemented are ineffective.
Rada works from the Atajo as this is the way for anyone practicing the art of dexterity, in his treaties he explains a number of ways to use the cut in order to manipulate the opponents blade and perform cuts. Cuts do not need to kill to do their job (this is the assumption of many) as often then not they are simple used to create an opening or cause a debilitating wound example: taking the hand or causing bleeding.
As far as evolution is concerned, yes rapiers evolved to fit the needs of the time period, however from 16th to early 17th centuries the most rapiers (or simple swords) still maintained its ability to cut, again the cut dose not need to kill often it simple sets up a line for a thrust.
As far as summing it up being wise or not, in Destreza cuts are in the treaties and are implemented quite often in Rada (specifically the system we study) it just depends on the way you use them.
Good question and I hope you enjoyed your trip to Spain.
Yeah the trip was amazing. I planed it for a long time. I visited a lot of lessons by local HEMA guys and learned a lot. Met some Spanish to Spanish translators and discussed a lot of stuff and learned a lot about different terms and so on. Met some blacksmiths that create replicas. And since i am Museum/Gallery restaurator-conservation worker specialized on weapons and machinery i used all i could to handle original swords, which worked as well. The ammount of informations i bring with me back will take me months (maybe years) to absorb properly. One unexpected yet amazing thing that happend was that when i went from museum where i handled two originals to HEMA club there were waiting these exact two swords for me (replicas) as surprise. The opportunity to handle replica after the original (so you know how accurate it is) and fence with it was.... just life-changing.
I am not trying to convince you that some Spanish author didn't used cuts. That would not be true. But i have selected Rada and Carranza for purpose. They are on the other parts of the scale. Rada's period rapier is narrow and thick as hell (for third of the blade it is thicker than most ricassos from other time) it cannot cut very effectively. I believe that is reason why his cuts are aimed either to eye or neck. Other than that he cuts to gain controll of either weapon or weapon-arm. Otherwise it would be very hard to cause any injury with it in my opinion especially in period clothing. (Btw. in Spain a lot of clubs that focus on Rada's teachings do not count cuts/slashes to other area than head/neck for that reason) You may not agree, but it is at least for long debate. (unfortunately the online collection is down fow now so i can't post it here.. if i remember i will upload it later) But simply put last quater of 17th century (which is Rada's time as he published 1705) is time where rapier were the most narrow and the thickiest.
I also do not mean that Verdadera authors do not work from Atajo or anything like that. Just saying that compared to the authors before him, Rada has far more complicated system of it. And once again his period weapon type suggest possible reason why.
There are many more different things between authors that would be amazing to analyze. Like Why Ettenhard do not have low planes of attack while Rada does? I have heard something french out of tempo attacks, but it is just rumor that have no proof so i will not write it here.
Anyway good job, keep the videos comming. Have fun.
edit:
Still do not work and i have training soon..... so i will use this weapon as example, it was very similar to this: www.sailorinsaddle.com/product.aspx?id=1384 .... sorry if someone take it bad.
Great to hear, regular trips to Spain are a must! handling originals is the best way to learn.
In regards to Rada, we are in agreement, in fact I think we are saying the same thing. I have used replicas of radas rapier and even though it is a predominantly thrust orientated weapon and system it still has the ability to cause lacerations to the head,neck or hand, enough to distract or disarm an opponent,. The chest is another story however we feel that if one were to land then it should be counted, as we fight against other systems using different blade typology, to neglect the hit would form bad habits.
Radas system involves working through the Atajo using the medio to position yourself in a more favorable angle while controlling the opponents blade in one of the two defensive plans, cutting simple forms through this manipulation at times, and leads to openings or movements of conclusion.
I am aware of the date of publishing on the treaties as our school is part of Academia Da Espada under our teacher Ton Puey which enables us to delve deeper into the subject.
I would not say Rada is more complicated, His treaties is just more complete if at times easier for example the addition of a 3rd medio which helps bridge the gab in distances. Something that was absent from prior treaties.
Yes! its quite the rabbit hole when you get started and would take many more post to even scrape the surface, especially with authors disagreeing with one another. But its a journey well worth taking so I wish you look in your studies :)
No one takes it bad, its always a pleasure to have a friendly debate online.
Thank you and enjoy the training!