My great- great grandparents were called to have a polygamist marriage. Together they courted and befriended a young woman of marrying age and they were sealed to her. She died after the birth of her first child. Polygamy is apart of my family’s story and it isn’t a dark corner that we don’t look in or talk about. It’s a story of faithful followers of Christ’s church and His mouthpiece the prophet. I’m so grateful for their example.
@@debbiemelander289 just because somebody in your family did something doesn’t make it right. One of my ancestors is Roman emperor Nero, who crucified and tortured christians and killed babies. Do I feel a responsibility to defend “the false traditions of my fathers”? No. Because the Book of Mormon warns against that, as well as polygamy, time and time again. Read your Book of Mormon without your Utah glasses on.
Just because you have an opinion about something doesn’t mean it’s right. The fact that you make derogatory remarks about where you think I live and how I should read the Book of Mormon discredits your position.
@@debbiemelander289 Not really. Sometimes, its not an opinion, it’s just that you are under a poor misconception and need to revisit the text instead of believing what you were taught by someone else.
I could say the same thing about you. The point is, you and I are not enemies. You have the right to your convictions and the dictates of your conscience without other people of your faith mocking you. I have the same right. With all the persecution and hate thrown at us constantly from outside our faith it’s truly sad that that derision should be found among each other. Believe what you wish, brother. Don’t attack me for not agreeing with you. We are, after all, on the same team.
Yup - Multiple women made claims (25 or 46 years after Joseph died) that they were married to Joseph, including claims of having sexual relations. But somehow: 1) Emma had 9 pregnancies over their 17 year marriage 2) All the other wives (27? 30? 40?) are shown that not a single one of them had a child by Joseph. Even if we go with historian estimates that "only" 1/3 are said to have had intimate relations with Joseph, still, zero children.
@ThePianoPimp This is correct. DNA evidence shows conclusively that no other children were fathered by Joseph outside of he and Emma's relationship. We know that Joseph was sealed to other women in his life, but it appears that in at least a few of these situations, that this sealing was thought of as a spiritual thing that wouldn't bring with it the temporal requirements of a typical marriage. In addition, it's difficult to know the real number of women that Joseph was sealed to since many of them were recorded posthumously.
Exactly. Joseph was purportedly married to Louisa Beaman for 3 years (2 years before her baptism), who then married Brigham Young the same year of Joseph's assassination, and bore Brigham 5 children in 4 years.
Hi Greg, I messaged you yesterday and hoped to hear back. Jacob Hansen does not represent my views accurately at all. This was a bit like the equivalent of reading one of John Bennett's letters to learn about Joseph Smith. We may disagree on some aspects of polygamy or history, but I honestly believe that if you talk to me (instead of talking to someone setting himself up as my enemy about me) you will find that we share a lot of common ground. I really hope you will respond to my message, or here, and that you will have me on to represent my own views. I am happy to answer any questions so you and your audience can sus out any points of agreement or disagreement. I am looking forward to hearing from you.
Greg, please have her on! I have watched almost all of Michelle’s videos and I genuinely believe that Jacob misrepresented her in a horribly unfair way. Michelle has such great questions with our polygamous history. And to not have a discussion with her to see if she can add anything to the table, I feel like would be a huge missed opportunity. If she is wrong, let her condemn herself through her own words. But if she is right, let her defend herself through her own words.
Greg I will go so far as to say if you don’t have have a conversation with Michelle, I’m done listening to you. I’ve been a big fan of yours for a long time. You bring a lot of truth to the table, but you just went out of your depth of expertise. No one questions the hours and hours of research you bring light and knowledge to, but if you don’t have a conversation with Michelle and her thousands of hours of research, it will say a lot about you? I believe in you Greg please don’t disappoint us.
@@vhasara, I appreciate that you've followed the channel for a long time. I will say I don't respond well to void threats. They don't really move the needle. My decision will have nothing to do with whether or not you listen to me. I do wish you the best, though.
@@MichelleBStone you are currently a heretic and apostate. Stop playing stupid and innocent. I know you are mentally challenged, but try to be honest about your views of me, the temple, priesthood keys and authority, and my friends president Nelson and president Oaks. Also thanks to you, many women (and low testosterone men) are being emotionally manipulated into your weird and skewed paradigms. Joseph, the lord and myself would appreciate it if you stopped. It’s never too late to repent-but you better do it quick or you will end up in pretty bad places spiritually, though it appears you have already crossed that line. Anyways, I must continue doing the Lords work here in the world of spirits, but I hope this message finds you well and somehow sticks in that little brain of yours :)
Forget section 132... What about the original section 101? We can factually guarantee that section was approved by Joseph Smith. So he was either a deceiving liar or telling the truth.
@@stephtimms1776it was chaos, secrecy, lies in the beginning, middle and end. Joseph fought against the encroachment of polygamy. Keys do not mean infallible. Only Christ is infallible. Coming to know truth that God never commanded polygamy increased my faith in God, Joseph, the restoration, grace for the Church as well as people
@@BridgeBuilder-x4c That accusation is false. Unathorzed plural marriages were and are like that, but God authorized it for some and it was done properly by some. You not knowing that does not make it okay for you to bear a false witness about it never happening.
I read a book I the eighties that I purchased at an LDS bookstore in Canada and the owner was very careful about the books she put on the shelf. It was either written by Emma or Joseph’s mother. It used the word purportedly a lot. However, the polygamy issue eventually became a non-issue for me…….it never was a big issue for me. I know what I believe through the spirit and I have a very strong testimony. In fact it grows stronger from time to time. People need to stop getting hung up on these “controversial” issues! I’m good with it either way and I have my own theories that I seldom voice my opinion about. At the end of the day, there are more important things to worry about……..like our relationship with God!
I love that the truth is coming out. "Polygamy is like war." Lol You started out with a bang. 😅😂 Joseph Smith taught against, condemned, and fought against polygamy in every possible way he could.
@@PresidentBrighamYoungseriously, you don’t need to follow any influencer to know the truth. If people would stick to primary sources and not all these second-hand tales, the spirit will reveal the truth of all things
Your view is valid, but only if you ignore multiple other primary sources. That’s your issue that you don’t want to address. There are easy explanations for each of Joseph’s statements and his supposed statements, but there is nothing on the many that contradict you. Cant just leave those alone with absolutist statements like you comment.
It would be helpful if this guest would talk directly with a guest from the polygamy deniers on a platform to go over the issues one at a time and see each side presented from each guest in first person in their own words
I have loved your channel .... But this episode was extremely disappointing. So many untrue statements & assumptions, to list everything that was in error, is beyond the scope of a mere comment. I have no problem with Brigham being the one to start polygamy, he also taught other untrue doctrines, that later have been discounted by later prophets. I have no problem that prophets can make mistakes. Brigham Young sure made his fair share. Doesn't mean that the Lord isn't still guiding His church now. We all should have the spirit of discernment .... it's very easy to see what narrative Jacob feels best about .... that's fine for him. But he can't group those who see concerns with early church history being tampered with . ...as all apostates. That's sad ..... why is it not okay to research history and follow what the spirit is teaching you? We believe in personal revelation, hopefully based on facts and inspiration. Hyrum & Joseph Smith preached against polygamy until their dying day ..... That's a fact. Why don't we want to look at that? Polygamy destroyed families & was not pleasing to God. If God is the same, yesterday, today, and forever .... why does he change such an important doctrine that is the basis of family life? The core of the gospel .... the purpose of our existence for eternity. God gave Adam & Eve the Doctrine of monogamy .... One man is to be with one woman. God doesn't change something so fundamental to His plan
Great comment and I totally agree!!! I've been a member all my life for 61 years and now know for myself polygamy was never commanded by God because it is so damaging and demeaning to women. Why would God tell Jacob in the Book of Mormon that this practice is evil and an abomination and then command Joseph to practice it when it clearly serves absolutely NO purpose!!!
Thank you for this comment. Greg, if you see my comment, I want you to know I love your channel and appreciate your content. I am not bothered with the possibility that I can be wrong, so it's not simply that this video takes a position with which I (still) disagree. But there are some false assumptions here that I think do need to be confronted by the mainstream of the church.
Thank you Greg for addressing this topic. An additional fact I found in my research is the records of the 1865 general conference of the RLDS Church. Joseph III proposed as an article of faith that his father never practiced polygamy, but was voted down because the older RLDS members who were adults in Nauvoo all said that in fact Joseph had practiced polygamy (and note that these were RLDS people who thought polygamy was wrong). Joseph III waited until all those older RLDS members had died off before he then put into place the RLDS position that Joseph never practiced polygamy. Note also that the RLDS Church (now Community of Christ) has now acknowledged that the historical record is clear that polygamy came from Joseph.
MATTHEW 19::4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, 5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? 6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
I really loved this conversation you guys. I think this topic is one of the most important things to address, far too many people and leaders shy away from the topic and it leaves a vacuum for people like Michelle Stone to take a place in the conversation. I especially loved the closing sentiments regarding family, I feel so strongly that is the most important message of the restoration and I do fear it is being dimmed in recent times. I appreciate you guys and all you do to defend the truth, more than I can explain.
Pres Hinckley said on Larry King live that polygamy is not doctrinal. Does that mean something is only doctrinal if the laws of the land allow it to be? Just because David was justified to have more wives, does that mean it was a sanctifying ordinance? We see where he went… God has never commanded polygamy in the scriptures….God never commanded Abraham or Jacob to have more than one wife or concubine (sex slave). Joseph never fathered children. I thought polygamy was to raise up seed? The Book of Mormon is very clear about multiple wives. Remember the whole story of King Noah? Sometimes I wonder if this is why the church is still under condemnation (as it says in D&C)-because we don’t really take the BOM seriously. Elder Cook said in Sep 2018 Church News that the general rankings of church leaders believe polygamy will no longer be relevant in the restoration but that we can be grateful for those that practiced in the past-for their sacrifice. Have you really studied out the implications of polygamy and its effect on the culture of the church, widows, missionary work and those that practiced it? More importantly, have you inquired of the Lord?? The Ultimate Source? Michelle Stone has some obvious issues, but I do believe some of the things she has brought to light about Joseph and polygamy is true. Two things can be true at once. I believe Joseph and Emma. I believe Joseph sealed himself to other women but did not father children for a reason. It wasn’t a sexual thing-which we believe marriage to be. It was like dealing children to their parents. Most of his sealings occurred after his death. I get that it’s messy, but the church has had a long-standing narrative about the whole thing that will have more clarification about in the future. In the meantime, we will serve the Lord. President Nelson is the Lord’s prophet on the earth today and temple ordinances bind us to our Everlasting Savior, Jesus Christ.
Jacob 2:30 is absolutely clear God gets to command polygamy. You quote Jacob 2:30, so please take it seriously. God can and did say it was okay for a while, then He took it away. God's choice.
@@ED-wired if you seal someone to you when you are dead?? Obviously you are not the one doing the sealing since you are dead ?? Gezz if some were sealed to him when they were dead but Joseph was alive again they are dead so how would you know that they wanted this? Joseph Smith was not required to live the law of Sarah . It was a test . Joseph Smith had one wife . Her name was Emma . I believe Joseph Smith and Emma . It is right there in doctrine and covenants when Joseph Smith asks about king David . He explains that the ones given to king David were from God and whdn Fsvix kidnapped Bathsheba forcing her and then set up her husband in war to die . This is what he did wrong . And lost all. Shame on you for saying the Lord did not command Abraham . Yes the Lord did . If you belong to the church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints this has all been explained . So maybe you should learn and search and study more what our leaders actually teach in these particular subjects . The gospel certainly does teach the Abraham Issac and Jacob were commanded and other Holy Prophets of God . W have further light and knowledge on this . Though not found in the Bible Issac is said in the doctrine and covenants to have more than one wife .
You are taking Pres. Hinckley's comment to Larry King out of context. They were specifically talking about people outside of the Church who are illegally practicing polygamy in modern times, who do not have the sanction of God through a prophet to do so. He did not condemn the earlier practice in our Church under the direction of prophets. He did not make a blanket statement that polygamy is not doctrinal.
Regarding the plurality of wives in the hereafter, President Nelson literally just gave thanks during his birthday celebration that he was sealed to his first and second wife.
@@veritas9243 ...and it would only matter if you believed that Joseph did in fact teach the doctrine of the plurality of wives and eternal marriage through the sealing relationship and it's rightful ordinances. So if it does matter to you, then you will see that sealing isn't about mere sexuality, but about connecting the family of God in one unbroken chain of Christ centered covenants. That's what it is. May God bless you one way or another.
@@deborahbeeton3634 You may want to corner him in the main thread if you're trying to his attention. This is just my sub-thread. Also, not believing something someone says, doesn't equate with "crazy and evil" such as what Emma said towards the end of her life. Anyone can disagree or choose to see Emma as plenty of other things than crazy and evil whether they do or don't believe her claim that Joseph never practiced polygamy. For instance, maybe she had dementia or maybe she was just simply in denial, and that's what someone chooses to believe about what she said, but they can still choose to adore her for who she is and her massive role in the opening scenes of the restoration.
Correction: Abram practiced polygamy, kind of and at the behest of his wife, but in Genesis 17, he is commanded to repent and then he is forgiven and receives a New Name. So Abraham did not commit polygamy. Genesis 32 tells the same story for Israel, who after his wrestle and receiving of a New Name, prevailed against the ways of men
Yep. Hagar was essentially a sex slave and was cast out-& the scriptures refer to Isaac repeatedly as Abraham’s firstborn-not her son. There’s was nothing Godly about that situation. They were enacting cultural norms, not following some commandment. No where does God command Him in scripture. He remarried again after Sarah died. He was never a polygamist. Neither was Isaac. Jacob was tricked into marrying sisters by his wicked FIL. I don’t see where people get that polygamy is good and commanded by God from these cautionary tales, & I don’t understand why people don’t stop and take pause on the very first verse of doctrine and covenants 132. The first verse shows errors & that something isn’t right with that section.
Stop lying. Abraham did practice polygamy and had no reason to repent. Read the account of King David when God condemned his adultery with Bathsheba. God said he gave David multiple wives, but Bathsheba was forbidden.
@@DerekPayne1791 Genesis 17 is temple liturgy. Ironically Michelle doesn’t put stock in the importance of the temple nor make the connections. She is one who will not receive further light and knowledge from the living apostles and prophets and so she is having that which she hath taken from her until she shall not be able to understand any of the mysteries of God. She once having been enlightened shall become more dark and the fruit she is bearing is already becoming bitter.
It is absolutely an abomination if not appointed unto it. In Jacobs time sounds like those people were living it terribly. If one is going to attempt to live a principle wrong and fake it, then it is wrong for them, it is a mockery to God.
@@EM-od6gu No, there isn’t a right way and these verses are a chiasmus without the interpretation that there’s a loophole for polygamy which is against gods law
@@Hmcc0712 God commands murder, so He's commanding against His own law? What would you tell Nephi, Joshua, or Saul? God commands, and we can call it an interpolation all we want, but it's to our own destruction.
Joseph Smith addressed the accusation that his revelation was on plural marriage right before his death. He said it was not about plural marriage but eternal marriage. Hyrum corrected anyone who misinterpreted his high council speech by later condemning polygamy in the strongest of terms. In all, Joseph, Hyrum and Emma Smith denied, condemned and fought polygamy DOZENS of times that we have contemporary records of.
At the 9 minute mark jacob said that he believes that joseph was telling the truth about practicing polygamy. Can anyone help me find that quote where Joseph said that?
Jacob Hansen is so disingenuous. He says Joseph told the truth about polygamy; he says Joseph lied about polygamy. Jacob says what he needs to say to stay relevant in his little bubble that he lives in. What a joke.
Joseph often spoke publicly: 1) Against polygamy and for then-section-101 "one-man-one-woman" 2) That he did not teach anything else privately For Jacob to claim that he believes Joseph in the video was way out of left field. "We the undersigned members of the city council of Nauvoo... solemnly declare before God, angels, and men, to all people to whom this certificate may come that no such principle as polygamy, or spiritual wifery, has ever been taught, publicly or privately, by Joseph Smith, and that there is no doctrine or practice in this church which is contrary to the laws of the land or to good order and harmony." Joseph Smith along with others in the Nauvoo Neighbor newspaper on June 19, 1844
I'm sorry Greg but this episode does not pass the sniff test. Bro. Hansen's use of "Ah, Um, maybe, I think" makes him sound like a Monday Morning Quarter Back. Second guessing the written testimony of Emma Hale Smith, putting words into Michelle Stones's mouth, and on and on. Sorry, but this episode was very disappointing.
And Jacob saying he believes Joseph, that was a stinkarooney of a statement. Which statements of Joseph's? It appears that all of Joseph's statements on it were: 1) against polygamy 2) that he wasn't teaching it in private
@@amynazza The Utah church left the US territory so that they wouldn't be under US law. Therefore, they could make up whatever rules and rights they wanted (including polygamy, which was against the law). Thus, "they" could have given women any rights they wanted to but instead ended up treating women like livestock. Taking care of widows is not a good argument for polygamy.
What is the church? It is an organization where people can meet to learn the gospel of Jesus Christ and support and strengthen each other in following that gospel. The purpose of the apostles, really? Because the purpose of the apostles that Christ called was to be missionaries and oddly enough that was the purpose of the apostles prior to Joseph Smith's death.
I personally feel like I could still believe that Brigham was a prophet and was to lead the church and had the keys and also that polygamy was wrong. That’s what I have to do with priesthood and the blacks. So to me it’s not that different than what I currently have to do. 🤷♀️
That's an untenable position. One can't say Brigham and other succeeding prophets essentially created what the deniers consider institutionalized adultery and yet retain the priesthood keys. And therein is the problem with the revisionist history by the plural marriage deniers - they inevitably come to the conclusion the Church is in apostasy, when it's not and never was, and they apostitize. And by the way, like plural marriage, the Priesthood restriction began with Joseph and was more fully instituted by Brigham. There were reasons for both, though most don't understand the history and doctrine behind them.
I’m not saying I believe one way or the other. I’m just saying I could hold that position and not let go of anything else about Brigham and the gospel like succession or the temple. I view it more like I have to do with people who misuse authority or maybe honestly misunderstand doctrine. I’ve been in wards where a bishop sexually abused someone. Does it make the church not true? No, still true. We had a stake president in the 90s reject temple recommends for women for not wearing pantyhose because he believed it was required? Does that make the church not true? Nope, still true. Brigham taught things or said things we don’t believe today and I still think he was a prophet. It appears for some people they go apostate after considering polygamy was possibly wrong for me it’s not really a problem. That’s all.
So you're saying that you're able to believe that Brigham Young and all those church leaders were in their position and excercising the priesthood while also violating, and teaching others to violate, the law of chastity? Which law is taught in the temple.... Yeah, that doesn't make sense.
@@kristinpruett7733 Wrong. The doctrine and policy underlying the priesthood restriction began with Joseph, as did plural marriage. Brigham simply built upon it, as he was able to do under his prophetic mantle, just as he did with the temple ordinances.
What about when brigham said that a woman could leave her husband for a man with a higher priesthood without a bill of divorce? Or when he told missionaries to stop marrying the pretty english converts before they got to utah so that everyone got a fair shake at them? Or how brigham called Emma the most evil woman on earth.
I think Brigham had many issues and opinions that I absolutely disagree with. I do believe overall he is a righteous man. Even some of Gods best men do dumb things hense the need for Christ.
Please please don’t waste yours and our time with Michelle. She talks in circles and is a completely different person when challenged by someone with some knowledge. It will end in confusion and we know where that comes from.
@@Ily779 Gwendolyn's claims the early saints practiced spiritual wifery, which is sharing wives. That is immorality. These kind of false ideas are taught in colleges now, along with lies like critial race theory and other revisionist history.
bingo! I bet he could not. He knows it would make him lool bad and Michelle look good. He wouldn't look good at all. He has to talk to another person, who says "to be fair," but who isn't being fair.
Thank you for this interview and for the one with Michelle Stone! I gleaned a lot from both. I actually have a lot more respect for both of them and you for thoroughly delving into such controversial topics after hearing out both sides!
Bingo. Jacob Hansen is a liar. Greg, shame on you for mot vetting him more. He is clueless about polygsmy, and he outright lied several times. Your reputation will suffer by engaging with Bozos like Jacob Hansen. Have a real expert on your show!
Most of your broadcasts are great to watch, but this one seems a little "MSNBC' like--biased presentation. It would be great to have someone from the other side of the issue there to discuss their viewpoint at the same time. Not in a debate format, but someone with another explanation of content.
To Greg and Jacob, thank you for your discussion. I live in Canada and have been a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints since 1961. I have watched both of you on TH-cam on different channels for a handful of years and came to realize that you both support the Gospel of Jesus Christ fully. Knowing this allows me to watch you engaging with others who are not of the LDS faith or who are finding the Covenant Path to be challenging. I have had my own experiences and challenges. I don’t always enjoy debates and hearing alternate reasons as to how others claim I should live the Gospel. I’m not afraid to hear other opinions but I prefer to hear and learn more fully about Jesus Christ and His Covenant Path. Today with this episode I realized that a discussion between two people whom I believe to be fully committed to the Covenant Path, is engaging and more enjoyable, allowing me to relax, listen and learn. You spoke of many tenets of the Gospel and the results of choices allowing me to see the path choice to the Celestial Kingdom with a wife and family. What’s equally important is that I felt the peace of the Holy Ghost as I listened to you both. How refreshing it was to know that I was being lead into truths and explanations that clarified areas of concern among members. Growing up I went to Sunday School, Seminary and Institutes of Religion so I have been fortunate to have very good teachers. A mission taught me more. I hope the two of you will meet again. It is easier to connect with your points when I already know you are not trying to lead me astray or r trying to be heard above the masses. I have striven to know how the Holy Ghost speaks to me so knowing this, I received far more from your dual exchange rooted in truth. What I heard you say added to my base and knowledge of the Gospel, Church History, religious history and testimony. There were no lying familiar spirits along for the ride in your message. Thank you again. What I thought would be easy to express sure has taken me a long time to express. I understand both of you better and will continue to listen to your channels. Enjoy Egypt! I love Egypt. Thanks once again.
Look at the circumstances when he was speaking. His life was in constant danger from a murderous government and mobs. He was justified to deny that doctrine that was teaching privately. Just as Nephi was justified in killing Laban because his life would be in danger if he didn’t kill him. Once the saints were in a much safer place in the West they could openly practice the doctrine in 132.
@@MrRugbyrugbyrugbyGod never commands us to lie. Stop drinking the Kool-aid and start learning the truth. All you are doing is rehashing the story that liars told you. I believe Joseph Smith, the prophet of the restoration. You are evil speaking of the Lord's annointed when you throw him under the bus like you are doing with this comment.
What if Joseph was telling the truth? We don't want to be false accusers, do we? 1 The ends of the earth shall inquire after thy name, and fools shall have thee in derision, and hell shall rage against thee; D&C 122 11 And they who do charge thee with transgression, their hope shall be blasted, and their prospects shall melt away as the hoar frost melteth before the burning rays of the rising sun; 13 Also because their hearts are corrupted, and the things which they are willing to bring upon others, and love to have others suffer, may come upon themselves to the very uttermost; D&c 121 I don't think we want to be on the wrong side here. I take Joseph's at his word. I don't believe what others said about him years later.
@@BradKandyCroftFamily - There's several places where Joseph and Hyrum: 1) condemn polygamy as not of God and that the "one-man-one-woman" thing of then-D&C 101 is the teaching of God 2) That Joseph & Hyrum are not teaching anything else in private that is not in line with then-D&C 101 One of Joseph's public letters: "We the undersigned members of the city council of Nauvoo... solemnly declare before God, angels, and men, to all people to whom this certificate may come that no such principle as polygamy, or spiritual wifery, has ever been taught, publicly or privately, by Joseph Smith, and that there is no doctrine or practice in this church which is contrary to the laws of the land or to good order and harmony." - Joseph Smith in the Nauvoo Neighbor, June 19, 1844
In the Joseph Smith papers and Journal of discourses. You have to study on your own. If you believe Joseph lived polygamy you believe he also cheated on his wife and cavorted with a 16 year old teenager while lying to Emma in spite of the fact that he preached against it and excommunicated men who he found living it. If Joseph really did these things the church would be in dire trouble. Brigham bragged that he started it long before Joseph knew about it. The gospel is true despite Brigham Young thank goodness
Either a few people lied about practicing polygamy when it was most controversial, or an entire city and religion of people are lying that Joseph taught them plural marriage. I believe the latter. Just because Joseph was deceptive doesn't make him less of a prophet. He was literally killed for polygamy charges.
We still practice Celestial Plural Marriage guys! It is eternal and our prophet is currently practicing. President Nelson is sealed to both. Living men can be sealed to another woman if his first wife dies but a living woman has to break her sealing with the dead husband if she wants to be sealed to another man.
He also urged the jab, he is behind in some areas. The LDS view of what a prophet is is also another false tradition we need to repent of if we are going to receive more light 💡 follow the prophet culture produces bad fruit I’m not saying there aren’t prophets or that Nelson is the boogyman
@americathebeautiful9613 Yeah, prophets are so overrated! It's not like the scriptures show that it's important to follow them! My revelation trumps a prophet's revelation because God is speaking directly to me. So if I get the feeling I shouldn't get the jab then I'm gonna follow the Lord. If I feel like I'm supposed to have an affair with my neighbor I'm gonna follow the Lord. If I feel like murdering or stealing or coveting or anything .... I'm gonna follow the Lord because he speaks directly to me! You're also right that President Nelson is behind ... Like, is he not interested in the world and us worldly folk!?
rather convenient that the man and not the woman gets to be sealed to multiple partners?…prophets or not..the doctrine of plural marriage here in earth or upstairs is absolute B.S
@@dillfry1 If you could point out somewhere in the scriptures that says "follow the prophet", I'd be much obliged. The only one I'm aware of that we're urged to follow is Jesus. Can you find a prophet telling everyone "follow me"?
@dillfry1 God wants everyone to be a prophet. A prophets roll is to invite people to come unto Christ, and repent. Nothing more, nothing less. Don't be so eager to put your trust in anyone other than Christ. If a prophet teaches more than the doctrin of Christ (faith, repentance, baptism, gift of the Holy ghost) than you should be very skeptical.
What are the primary sources from Joseph? All that are ever presented are from other people years later. Also, if polygamy was to build up the number of saints, as Jacob in the Book of Mormon says is the only valid reason God would allow it, why did Joseph have zero children except through Emma?
@@1klakak he publicly stated he didn’t practice polygamy on multiple occasions. Should be able to find them with a simple source. The apologist reasoning, and the are probably right, is that he would get in trouble if it were public.
My step father is 88. When he was younger, he had difficulty understanding polygamy and was teased about it as a kid. While on his mission in Sweden, he met a very old lady who had joined the church as a young teen when polygamy was in practice. He asked her if she ever had difficulty accepting polygamy. She said, “Nope! Not at all”. She then said, “Elder, now you listen to me. When the Lord gives a commandment He gives understanding with that commandment. When He takes the commandment away, He takes the understanding away”.
When had God taken a commandment away? Please don't use polygamy because I know it is an abomination always. Or Nephi slaying Labon. I'm just wondering if God has ever taken a commandment away. Can anyone think of an example?
Joseph was not a polygamist. The evidence is clear, it doesn't matter how many times you say Joseph was a polygamist, that does not create evidence that he was. We are clearly in a condemned state, Jesus Christ clearly named His church "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints." The answer is not to leave the church, but instead demand the church library be opened so we can read the hidden history and correct the interpolations of man. For someone who runs a channel called thoughtful faith, Jacob sure does follow human authority without thinking for himself. Greg, you are a smart man, please don't discount this idea and look into it for yourself. If we all just trusted authority blindly, we would be Catholics. Jacob's presentation is incredibly dishonest and misleading, I can't believe he even presented this. WILLIAM CLAYTON'S JOURNAL IS NOT CONTEMPORANEOUS.
I agree!!! I always loved and trusted Joseph SMith he was my hero before I heard all the bad stuff. This does make him the good guy that he always was!! It makes so much since if the "Devil" is involved and the prophecy to be love and hated from all nations.
@@GAILandROD I recommend every latter-day saint own a copy of the 1844 D&C. Every time you read something in the D&C that the holy spirit tells you it doesnt seem quite right, you can go to the 1844 version and realize it wasn’t in there. Joseph’s name was used many times after his death for the church to pass their agendas, abusing the people’s testimony of God’s true prophet.
Lots of people don’t think JS practiced polygamy the way BY did, but they still believe President Nelson is a prophet. (New flash, prophet can and do make mistakes)
I agree with most of what Jacob said - liked a lot of his analogies. Gonna push back on the idea that plural marriage wasn’t instituted to raise up more children. IF YOU HAVE LIMITED NUMBER OF MEN, then the numbers are higher. Jacob compared birth rates between women in polygamous marriages vs. those in standard marriages. The comparison should be between what gets higher birth rates with limited men - pairing off or plural marriage? ESPECIALLY IF YOU HAVE 2x to 3x more women. Jacob is correct that by only allowing plural marriage with only the most dedicated members, you did create a large number of children with fathers who all had solid testimonies of the truth. This is especially true after crossing the continent.
Did Jacob just say "Joseph didn't lie"???? That's your whole argument, Jacob! JOSEPH IS A LIAR! If you believe Joseph practiced polygamy, you believe Joseph is a liar. Man up and say it.
@@hhsisters5508 it’s more nuanced than that. Your guys issue is that you think about history in a too black and white lens. Joseph and I are laughing so hard at y’all and Michelle-the-belle.
It’s real simple. Ask God if Russell M Nelson is the key holder. Religion is based on faith. How do we know Joseph even held the keys? Faith. I’m not the judge. If Joseph or Brigham screwed up they can answer to the Lord for it. As far as I am concerned, I just need to have my own revelation that President Nelson is the current prophet.
I love your show Greg and all the people that you bring on your show that give us their knowledge on the gospel of the Church of Jesus christ. I am glad you have Jacob on the show today. The subject of plural marriage has been so hidden up, but I have had the privilege of learning this principle and its purpose for the last 40 years of my life.
Honestly it is not that simple. I say that because there are many who are weak in their faith and want so badly for something to not be true. We have to first have faith in Christ and the Restoration. I love Elder Uchtdorf's talk about doubting your doubts. Satan is real and he can make you believe something that is not true. You have to have a broken heart and contrite spirit. You must have faith that God will answer your prayer just like Joseph Smith when he knelt in the Sacred Grove. Let us remember Satan (Lucifer) even attempted to stop Joseph from receiving the truth from God. We must have a discerning spirit to know what is from Satan and what is from God. I know for me I receive a spirit of peace and my mind is calm. If it is from Satan I feel anxious and frustrated.
@@cameronreed1411Because I have the book of Genesis which say Abram (17) and Jacob (32) repented and each received a New Name upon being forgiven. Issac was never a polygamist.
Do you know what scriptures also condemn David and Solomon? Doctrine and Covenants 132. Do you know who both don't condemn? Neither condemn Abraham, Jacob, or Nathanial.
@@DerekPayne1791 How do we know this repentence was referring to Polygamy? What about Moses being a polygamist? What about God giving Saul's wives into David's hands?
Joseph stated publicly and published letters, including in newspapers at the time, that he was not teaching polygamy in private. This makes a mutually-exclusive situation. a) Joseph lied in his public letter and was teaching polygamy privately b) Joseph told the truth in his public letter and did not teach polygamy privately There's much more on the topic, but that's just one that does not leave wiggle room.
@@aliceduren6542 This is absolutely false. If practicing polygamy would get you killed than the real polygamists would have halted doing so right after the Expositor exposed the practice and Joseph was killed. Instead Brigham took 11 wives right after Joseph's death before reaching the safety of Utah.. If polygamy was the real threat doing so would have been insane. And Joseph had plenty of threats on his life without openly practicing polygamy. He didn't deny any other truth simply to avoid persecution or death. Here is what his sons had to say about people like you who think he would lie to protect himself. It is said that Joseph Smith, the martyr, received a revelation revealing the "celestial marriage" and instituting "plurality of wives." I have already examined the testimony of Joseph Smith, concerning the marriage ceremony; and he declares that he knew of no other system of marriage than the one quoted from the Book of Doctrine and Covenants [ 1835 Kirtland Edition, 101; 1844 Nauvoo Edition, 109; 1866 Liverpool Edition, 109] But says one, "that was only a sham to blind the eyes of our enemies." Shame on the man, or set of men, who will thus wilfully charge the two best men of the nineteenth century, the two Prophets of the most high God, with publishing to the church and the public at large a lie, and signing their names to it. "Oh! but it was done to save their lives." A very likely story, when those two men had faced death and the world for fourteen long years, preaching the word of God to a sin- cursed generation. No, no, it will not do, you must meet the truth with better weapons than that, if you expect to make much of a battle. Besides all that, Is it not written, that "He who seeketh to save his life shall lose it, and he who loseth his life for my sake shall find it," and did not they know this. Yes, a thousand times yes; it was their hope, their consolation in times of danger." (Alexander H. Smith) *"To assert that Joseph Smith was afraid to promulgate that doctrine [polygamy], if the command to do so had come from God, is to charge him with a moral cowardice to which his whole life gives the lie. Nor does it charge him alone with cowardice, but brands his compeers with the same undeserved approbrium. The very fact that men are now found who dare to present and defend it, is proof positive that Joseph and Hyrum Smith would have dared to do the same thing had they been commanded so to do. The danger to the lives of those men would have been no more imminent, nor any greater in the preaching of "Celestial Marriage," than it was in preaching the "Golden Bible" and the doctrine that Joseph Smith was a prophet blessed with di vine revelation. For the preaching of these tenets many lost their lives; Joseph and Hyrum Smith were repeatedly mobbed, were imprisoned and finally died, in the faith originally promulgated, but- if we may judge from their public records,- not believers in polygamy." (Joseph Smith III, Reply to Orson Pratt [tract], 4)
Hey So i noticed non of the quotes presented actually mention plural marriage. They all are about marriage and sealings. Except for the one coming from the expositer. but i couldnt read the fine print what does it actually quote from 132
Jacob says we aren’t condemned but we literally are, and have been since 1831 according to the D&C and Ezra T Benson in 1997, why aren’t we talking about this and doing anything about it?
Greg--love the channel. Your thoughts at the end captured what I was thinking. This issue isn't just about Joseph's image or investigating church history, like some of the anti-polygamy folks claim. This is about the temple and keys, which are absolutely fundamental to the restoration and the gospel. Without temples, what are we even doing? How can we believe the Book of Mormon is what it claims to be and reject the need for a temple?
Jacob Hanson's argument about Jacob 2 not being about having more babies does not completely make sense. A woman may have more babies in a monogamous marriage than in a polygamous one, but a righteous woman won't have ANY babies if there is not a man available to enter into a marriage with.
I was shocked when I found out that others in Gen X and millennials didn't know Joseph practiced polygamy. 😂 Apparently my seminary teacher red-pilled us on a lot of things that the general Church culture was trying to whitewash at the time. Including this. Not news. 😂
Hi Greg, A sincere question here from one who does not engage in commenting. And one who is watching, listening and learning from many voices. None of which I am 100% in agreement with. It is stated here something along the lines that perhaps Joseph did not know much about the sealing power with it still being in the early stages. And that Brigham came to understand it better. I have been thinking about this. Why then did Brigham seal slaves to people? That does not align. I am not sure if he did know more. Joseph on the other hand sealed men to him. That is not a part of current understandings of sealings. Did neither of them understand it? Or perhaps did Joseph know some things about it that we do not understand? For instance the church came under condemnation which means we were given the lesser portion rather than the greater portion of the word. Are there some truths that are still being withheld about sealings until we are no longer under condemnation? Do you have any thoughts on this? As a note: Jacob is interesting but not convincing to me. There are things being left out. And I see him representing what “polygamy deniers” say incorrectly in many cases according to things that I have listened to. I would like to see someone who is actually an agent for them speak for themselves. Jacob is not an authorized agent to present what they say or would say. This is concerning to me. I don’t even care for the term “debate”. I just want to honestly hear what others of varying opinions and beliefs have to say. Particularly if they retain membership in the church and desire to. The honest seekers trying to work through confusing and complicating things. I don’t know what I don’t know but in seeking I am seeing some of what I did not know. I am open to what God has to teach me through various thoughts and opinions and documents.
God already has, in both Jacob 2, D&C 132, the patriarchs in the Old Testament, and every modern day prophet. Plural marriage is commanded at times by the Lord. Some people bot being able to emotionally deal with it doesn't change that fact.
Wrong. Read it with discernment. There is no way D&C 132 is from God. God doesn't talk that way in any other section. God didn't say these things any other place. It is not of God.@jaredshipp9207
@jvyoung1258 you obviously haven't watched her. She says about 20 times a video that this is what the evidence says, here is her conclusion, but she may be wrong and please give her feedback. Jacob says none of these things. He is wildly wrong at almost every turn, but his hubris prevents him from seeing anything but his own view.
@hhsisters5508 I certainly have watched her. I said nothing about Jacob positive or negative. I have looked into what she uses as backup. I come to vastly different conclusions than she does. Does that make me stupid and or wrong, because I come to a different conclusion by studying the same things she does?
Please explain why in D&C 132 it states that Joseph inquired to understand why the Lord JUSTIFIED Abraham, Issac, Jacob, Moses, DAVID & SOLOMON to have many wives & CONCUBINES. Not all of these men practiced polygamy and Joseph would have known that, but he also would have know that in the Book of Mormon, Jacob clearly tells us that "David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was ABOMINABLE before me, saith the Lord." Please explain why Joseph (if he did practice polygamy), Brigham, and others broke this rule in D&C 132:61- "If any man espouse a virgin, and DESIRE to espouse another and the FIRST GIVE HER CONSENT, and if he espouse the second, and they are virgins, and have VOWED TO NO OTHER MAN, then is he justified..." If Joseph married women behind Emma's back, he was breaking this rule. Brigham took away a married woman from her husband and children. Please explain the marriage section that was originally in Doctrine & Covenants as section 101 which you can find in the Joseph Smith papers which says, "Inasmuch as this church of Christ has been reproached with the CRIME of FORNICATION, and POLYGAMY: we declare that we believe, that ONE MAN SHOULD HAVE ONE WIFE; and one woman but one husband, except in the case of DEATH. Please explain all the scripture verses that command that a man CLEAVE to his WIFE and they shall be ONE FLESH. Explain the Family A Proclamation to the World, and explain D&C 42:22-25. Explain Jacob 2:28. Explain Deut. 17:17. Explain 1 Cor. 7:2-3. Explain Matthew 5:28 which contradicts D&C 132:61. To DESIRE is to LUST. Also, President Hinckley said in a televised interview that he did not think polygamy was a true doctrine. I have studied this out for myself and know with all my heart and the confirmation of the Spirit of the Lord that polygamy is NOT OF GOD.
@@BuffaloChipp Joseph didn’t know from the scriptures whether Isaac was a polygamist but that doesn’t mean it wasn’t revealed to him. That’s that thing about being a revelator. As for Joseph breaking a rule, no keep reading the section to verse 65, she rejected the law and she became the transgresor. As for VOWED TO NO OTHER MAN, that’s referring to celestial marriage, not secular. Section 101 was not written by Joseph Smith. It was written by Oliver Cowdery and it was a political exigent so members would be approved for marriage licenses in the state. Monogamy is the rule, polygamy is the exception. I’m sorry you’re unable to integrate plural marriage into your belief structure but that’s a you problem.
@@jerry_phillips in the RLDS Joseph Smith translation of the Bible Joseph makes it clear polygamy was never commanded. Unless you've read that one don't say Joseph didn't know! Section 101 and 109 in the 1835 and 1844 editions of the D&C condem polygamy too.
@@ejs7721 I believe Joseph and Emma, Hyrum, Joseph Smith III, Eliza R Snow before she was taught to and persuaded to lie, the original section 101 of the Doctrine and Covenants, the probability of Joseph Smith having no other offspring outside of Emma, The Temple Lot Trial judge, etc., etc., etc.
@@ejs7721 i believe zj Jesus too. Matthew 19:4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, 5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? 6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
@@rolandsmith4394 do you believe Jesus?? Matthew 19:4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, 5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? 6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
Greg, Please don’t entrench yourself in Jacob’s position without a very thorough and fair look at the other side of the issue. It will take more time than Jacob has put into it. He does not represent the relevant facts. He does not even seem to know the relevant facts. He certainly does not represent the anti-polygamy position fairly. It absolutely does not have to take the direction he claims any more than his personal faith realignment had to end with him as an Athiest. The standard Richard Bushman/Brian Hales narrative has helped lead many many thousands out of the church because they instinctively recognize that it is fundamentally immoral. Our position has done exactly the opposite for very many of us. If you don’t have the time or interest to know the subject very thoroughly, you’re better to stay away from it.
But now that you’ve let Jacob have the first word on the subject, you really ought to have a competent person from our side respond-and, sorry, but Jacob Isbell is not competent. Michelle Stone and Gwendolyn Wyne and Whitney Horning are all good choices, but I recommend Jeremy Hoop.
Jacob, If you had any intellectual integrity on this issue you would go on Michelle’s show and discuss your arguments with her at length. But you’re looking more and more like a squirly coward who cherry-picks his evidence as well as his debate opponents so he doesn’t have his argument too closely examined. Maybe man up and see if you can face someone who knows the subject.
The problem with the anti-polygamists is they start with the premise that polygamy is always against God's will. It is imposible to have a discussion on the possibility of Joseph Smith being a polygamist if by definition polygamy is universally evil and Joseph Smith practicing it would make him evil. It's like trying to have a discussion with a Catholic about the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon and that Catholic starting with the premise that the all Catholic teachings are true.
And Jacob just contradicted himself (8:53) "the fundamental narrative is false, Joseph Smith practiced plural marriage" "Joseph told the truth" If Joseph told the truth than he did NOT practice plural marriage because Joseph said he only had one wife. Joseph said there was only one form of marriage that was acceptable in the church and that was monogamy. Joseph excommunicated those practicing or preaching plural marriage. Joseph said the revelation that was read in the high council meeting was NOT what was reported in the Expositor or alleged by the polygamist gang. Pick your poison Jacob either Joseph lied or he didn't practice plural marriage (which he didn't). You lose credibility when you contradict yourself.
Thank you Jacob for this excellent report. Plural marriage is a saving ordinance for women. Any woman who has set her goal on being a Creator in the heavens and the eternities, needs a male counterpart. Very few men will be able to obtain this position like Abraham and Moses, Jesus Christ and our father Adam. This is why righteous men must take upon themselves this obligation.
I’ve watched some of Michelle Stone‘s videos and I do not feel the spirit in them. There was one in particular where she had her young son come on and do the introduction. Under her direction, he called Brigham Young all sorts of disrespectful names. It was very unattractive. I feel her channel leads many to apostasy whether that’s her intention or not. She claims not to take responsibility for that because she is just exposing the “truth“
One of Michelle's sons is sadly named Brigham. I am glad Michelle came to the truth and has helped others see the truth as well. It is tragic when a man is falsely accused of something he didn't do and something he fought, and died, trying to clear his name of.
Without doubt, Sister Stone has retrieved and strengthened multitudes of members who rejoice in her clear evidence that our founding prophet of the Lord's restoration, Joseph Smith, consistently spoke the truth that he never practiced polygamy and was always faithful and dedicated to his one dear partner, Emma. Remember, Cheryl, it is the EMEMIES of the Lord's restored church who agree with people like Jacob Hansen, David Alexander, Brian Hales, etc.--and promote their very words as ammo to ATTACK the first "Mormon" prophet as unfaithful and callous to his wife and involved in multiple secret and scandalous affairs--and thereby attempt to weaken LDS members. No enemies of the Lord's church encourage anyone to believe Joseph's Smith's denials of practicing polygamy. But Michelle Stone does. Cheryl, members who hear the false arguments of the 3 men above and others like them--as repeated by the enemies of the Lord's church--are RELIEVED to have a courageous, intelligent, and well-researched person like Michelle Stone refute these detractors of Joseph and demonstrate why we can believe his words.
I like how Gwendolyn Wyne approached the choices that Brigham made and focused on the choices themselves of having wives and concubines and not on Brigham himself. (in her TH-cam video with the title of "12 Abinadi and King Noah")
@@piapia-d9g Gwendolyn accuses the church of practicing spritiaul wifery, sharing wives... that is a terrible fasle accusation. Women like her and Michelle have the spirit of apostasy, as described in Rev. 12: 10.
Hyrum condemned polygamy and any man practiced it.. and he called it a damed fool’s doctrine.. historical evidence is speaking in more and more in favour of Joseph telling the truth about himself when he publicly and privately condemned polygamy and anyone practicing it.. I believe Joseph.. if you don’t.. believe him… that condemned its practice in his life time.. then what does that mean Joseph is in your narrative.. and Emma denied polygamy her entire life from start to finish of her life..
@@BradKandyCroftFamily you can read about it in church history and even in the churches history series called Saints. What is not mentioned a lot of the time is that Hyrum later confronts Joseph and asks him about the matter. Joseph convinces him of the truthfulness of plural marriage. Hyrum later tells Joseph he could try and persuade Emma of its truthfulness if he made a copy of 132 and he would present it to Emma. Joseph told Hyrum he didn’t know Emma like he did. Hyrum presented it to her and she took the copy and tore it to sheds. Now you know the rest of the story. So it would be accurate to say that Hyrum fought against polygamy, but defended plural marriage when he found out its truthfulness.
And yet Jacob had on his graphic @20:38 and other times a green box for Hyrum. Hyrum railed really hard against polygamy. It's like in 25-45 years claiming that Greg doesn't like Cardio Miracle or something.
@@BradKandyCroftFamily "There have been reports about rebaptism and a multiplicity of wives, which are all lies... There is no such doctrine taught here; neither is there any such thing practiced here." - Hyrum Smith, general conference, April 6, 1844 There's other times too. Hyrum railed on polygamy quite hard.
@@andrewdurfee3896 "I wish the Elders of Israel to understand it is lawful for a man to marry a wife, but it is unlawful to have more, and God has not commanded any of you to have more; and if any of you dare to presume to do any such things, it will spoil your fun, for you will never have the spirit to preach the Gospel. I despise a man who teaches a pack of stuff that will disgrace himself so; for a man to go into the world, and talk of this spiritual wife system he is as empty as an open sepulchre. If the coat suits any one, let him put it on. I would call the Devil my brother before such a man... I am serious in what I say and it has the power of God with it" - Hyrum Smith, April 8th, 1844, General Conference, 3 months before he was killed. Hyrum, according to the church, had multiple wives at this time, had tearfully accepted polygamy, and had promised never to speak against Joseph again. Here he is telling everyone at general conference, with "the power of God", that nobody had been commanded to take more than one wife. Either he was lying, or the church is wrong.
YEAH!! She has quite the congregation of her own! So why attack us?! It’s WRONG and evil to do! Says we don’t need the temple?! Ok so don’t go Michelle! Take your ppl and GO cuz that’s what’s gonna happen to you all by saying we worship the prophets too! It’s WRONG to behave this way! You don’t have to like plural marriage but it DID happen and it did start with Joseph Smith! He didn’t want to do it! He was commanded to! MOVE ON now!
Our church is under condemnation for not adhering to the Book of Mormon. The Book of Mormon and JST of the bible Explicitly condemn Polygamy. We are told in D&C 84 "not only to say but to do". The Savior in 3 Nephi tells us GENTILES to "not only say but to do". That means our desire, our intent, our nature, and actions need to forsake the sin entirely. We haven't even forsaken polygamy entirely in practice but we still hold it dearly in our hearts. Joseph's own words (not he said she said crap) tell us that couples will only have one husband and one wife in the eternities. This is the law of the Lord according to the D&C before 132 confused everything. We stopped living it in open because we were threatened with destruction but yet our theology endorses it whole heatedly in the next life. By the mouth of two or three witnesses is the word of the Lord established. Where in scripture does it say that a man has multiple wives in the eternities other than the doctored 132? Back to destruction, WOW any time polygamy is practiced the people are threatened with destruction. That says something! Our Nation is on the brink of destruction and you guys can't seem to see the mote in your eyes to cast ou properly the beams in other's eyes. If D&C 84 says we need to repent, if the Savior in 3 Nephi tells us we need to repent, if Moroni tells us that we need to repent of our abominations... don't you think we need to consider what abominations are in the BoM so that we know what we need to repent of? Polygamy is certainly part of it! Don't you guys know that people who are actually on the fence and legitimately struggling with the concept of polygamy KNOW that the same rhetoric that you are spewing out is false; and that these videos turn them away from the church and possibly even God as their creator because the Light of Christ that is in them tells them that polygamy is WRONG. Instead, if we stop resting the scriptures and actually repent in humility we might actually save people from leaving the church. I believe Joseph Smith too Jacob Hansen... the only difference is that I actually believe his own words, not what someone else said that he said. And Joseph Smith repeatedly fought and denied polygamy. Can't you see that even the Family a Proclamation to the world says that Marriage is between "A" man and "A" Woman. If we don't repent of polygamy that document is just a joke to the rest of the world because they know that you believe in your heart that there is place for an exception. Then why not include their exception? You speak so heavily on LGBTQ and yet you ignore this one statement that is so vital to the doctrine of Marriage. Or to give you the benefit of the doubt are still in ignorance to the truth of polygamy. Hence why your efforts are still only reaching the people who are not LGBTQ. If you want to call people to repentance, repent yourself.
If you read more closely... the scriptures are not against proper plural marriage. The Lord is against the MISS USE and abuse of righteous plural marriage.
What is “proper plural marriage”? I don’t see any examples of it in the scriptures. Even in the cases Abraham and Israel there is sorrow and suffering. God did not give us any “proper” examples of this thing because it is not of Him.
@@allisonhansen364 Did God "give" King David many wives?? Yes... the scriptures say so. When did the Lord take David's wives away and "give" those wives to another man?? Well... he took David's wives away when the King started abusing the practice and lust after women who were not his wife and even murdered a man to do so. When a man causes suffering in plural marriage, it is not proper polygamy.
@@godsoffspring4195 really because that interpretation is taking 1 verse (Jacob 2:30) out of context. The interpretation in context would tell you that the Lord will command the people to leave and raise up seed two by two. Read more closely. There is no such thing as proper plural marriage.
To believe Hyrum’s statement on Celestial Marriage has anything to do with Section 132, it to call him a liar and discount every other thing he taught in public against polygamy. Hyrum preached belligerently against those who practiced polygamy right up to his death. That is the record. It is complete conjecture to conflate his speech on Celestial Marriage with Section 132. That is absolutely not the record. It takes supposition to come to that conclusion
@@DerekPayne1791 Most of the individuals in Joseph’s inner circle including Joseph denied and preached against polygamy yet practiced and preached authorized celestial plural marriage in private. That was one of their toughest needles to thread. They had to condemn John Bennett’s adulterous flavor of spiritual wifery without condemning authorized celestial plural marriage and while keeping plural marriage secret.
I do believe he pushed back against it being given by way of commandment to all AND preached against the kind of harem polygamy that BY and others seem to be leaning towards. I just started to read a new book written about him, hopefully I can get a greater grasp. A quote used in this video that is one of the first references to polygamy being introduced refers to restoring "Levirate marriage" - taking on your deceased brothers spouse as a second. The way I understand it, this was the common permissible form of polygamy to the Hebrews among the common man. The idea of restoring this principle probably confused Joseph and caused him to seek greater understanding of marriage and polygamy. As far as Joseph not having sexual relationships with those he was sealed to, idk if there is a way to prove it either way. All of the supposed descendants of his wives have been disproven genetically. My family was part of the genetic study to do exactly that (As a direct male descendant of Hyrum, I have the same Y chromosome as Joseph).
Soft Apostasy-Alma the Elder during the time of King Noah. He had the priesthood…. He took a righteous remnant out. Doesn’t mean that the priesthood was lost, just wasn’t active….. I’m a faithful member but the church has discarded a bunch of teachings from Brigham Young-Blood Atonement, Adam God Theory, Blacks and the Priesthood…. POSSIBLY polygamy. My actual problem is that a LARGE part of the church believe we HAVE TO practice polygamy for Christ to come again. It’s “CELESTIAL LAW”
That's dishonest and just a blanket excuse to ignore whatever you don't like. Brigham made conflicting statements on the Adam-God issue and, like blood Atonement, was never accepted as doctrine or even policy by the Church. Like plural marriage, the priesthood restriction began with Joseph, and was expanded by Brigham. Both these were doctrines or policies of The Church for a time. Your framing of these things is incorrect. The one thing you're right about is that Celestial marriage is different than plural marriage and the latter is not required for exaltation. The eternal pattern is that created with Adam and Eve.
Ok, patriarchal marriage in section 132 is part of celestial law. The requirement is one wife, but it can allow for plural wives. This is essential doctrine for our salvation. Adam God theory or Blood atonement is not orthodox doctrine. They may be based on revelation, but they have become unrevealed to us. If they are true, they will be revealed by the prophet.
@ED-wired Isrealites were denied the spirit of Elijah (blessings of the Melchizedek Priesthood) on Earth. Does that bar one from exaltation. Nope, you can get all in the next life. The point is to live worthy to what has been commanded, and all things will be added on in this life or the next.
@lexingtonconcord8751 In the scriptures, there are many generational curses. The priesthood ban in the church is a generational curse. Same with the Isrealites after Moses. Ham's (Son of Noah) offspring were cursed and couldn't hold the priesthood. Many times, these curses were done because an ancient prophet like Moses or Noah. The Savior restored the Melchizedek priesthood to the Isrealites and Revelation from God in 1978, allowing all worthy males to hold the priesthood. Does generational curses affect exaltation. No, it does not. One has to be obedient and righteous to what they have been commanded to live, and in the next life, they will be given the rest.
Wow! You are going to give credit to polygamy for the faithfulness of the church, what about the saving grace found in Christ! I have never been more sure of why I left the church!
D&C 132 does state that they were required to live polygamy. But the whole section is more about obedience to God’s commandments. Not just the law, but each and every commandment
It has been proven that Brigham wrote Section 132, not Joseph. There are over 20 factual errors in D&C 132. None of Joseph's revelations contained errors. Then why is this one suddenly chock full of errors? Because it did not come from Joseph, and it did not come from God.
@@hhsisters5508 So, you are claiming the church is lying about who the revelation came through? Excuse us for not believing you, a stranger, over all the prophets and apostles all throughout the history of the church. This video provides proof that it did come through Joseph.
@hhsisters5508 Don't be ridiculous. It has not be "proven" Brigham wrote 132. What has been proven is the text of the revelation existed before Joseph's death which the dishonest history revisionists ignore.
I'm a decendant of a polygamist family that came to Canada. Years ago I spoke on mother's day and talked about my great great grandmother and I had so many come up after and tell me they were related to me. Still usually easy to find relatives.
So Greg, you've agreed to interview Michelle Stone. Shes dying to expand her followers so as to increase pressure on the Church to repent for its polygamy sin. In another video, you said you aren't an expert on this topic. I hope you're planning on becoming one before meeting with her. Michelle bad mouths the brethern all the time. She's demanding that the Church remove section 132 and denounce Brigham Young, but that is only just the beginning. Her latest claims are that the temple endowment was made up by Brigham Young to support his lust for multiple wives. She says the Church should stop building temples and use the money to feed the poor instead. She claims that while the Book of Mormon condemns polygamy, it doesn't condemn gay marriage or transgenderism. She has twin daughters who came out as gay, with one who is transitioning to male. As I listened to her interview with her daughters regarding their LGBT journey, red flags flew up everywhere. They claim they didn't know what gay was until they were nine, and it grossed them out. They were tomboys and couldn't relate to their boy crazy female peers. They felt different. They went online looking for answers and began to " realize " they might be gay. They went into counseling and surprise the counselor, Julie Hanks, maybe? helped them "see " they had always been gay from the very beginning. She has also claimed she has the support of her Bishop and Stake President regarding her mission the cleanse the Church from polygamy. And that she was called by God to do it. Her followers call her a prophetess. Are you also aware she believes John Taylor shot and killed Joseph Smith in Cathage Jail. She 's clearly an apostate who says the only reason she stays in the Church is to save the Church as prompted to by God.
I know many people where I agree on some (few/many/etc) things with them and not agree on other people. "Many"....well, I think that's more like about every person that I have ever had the pleasure of getting to know. Michelle may not (or may) be close to the mark on so many of the other things you mentioned. But her take on the other topics are not the basis for the veracity of this topic. The topic stands or falls on its own merits and not on whether the person making the claim has a belief in other topics, whether those other topics be closely related or not. In this video, this part begins at about @6:15 with Jacob giving us a logical fallacy (false dilemma or false dichotomy) of the two paths of thought (maybe Jacob was shortening for brevity of a video?) - and at about the @7:00 mark, Greg joins in and mentions Michelle and Michelle's extended thoughts of "putting down the prophet...putting down the temple" While Greg stating that he recognizes a pattern of such...sure, no prob. But that part as a point of logic that disclaims Michelle's thoughts on the subject at hand is another logical fallacy as the subject at hand rises or falls on its own merits.
She is an apostate!! She will be held accountable by God! We don’t have to be comfortable with plural marriage cuz we aren’t to do it today but that doesn’t mean it wasn’t commanded for that time! For her to argue about BY or the temple, and say we prophet worship?? She is off her rocker! That is a horrible thing to say! We revere and respect the leaders but we worship JESUS CHRIST!
I'm not sure all of D&C 132 was written by Joseph Smith. I also find it interesting that all the people that said for sure Joseph practiced polygamy were polygamists themselves. I don't think there is one person that was not a polygamist that said Joseph practiced it.
I want to know who all of the bada$$ members were at the time of Brigham that went to Utah but didn’t practice it. I know there are some. I want to know if they stayed faithful and in the church. Seems like the polygamists get all the glory. Maybe because they were in power and could write the narrative?
@@ED-wired Polygamy wasn't practiced by many of the pioneers. The reason you see a lot of people descended from polygamists, is that it only takes 1 couple out of 32 couples that practice polygamy 6 generations back to be descended from a polygamists.
@@ED-wiredless than 40% of the Saints followed Brigham to Nauvoo. They didn't believe he was a prophet. And of those 40% of members who went to Utah, only about 25% practiced polygamy.
Isn’t it somewhat fascinating that the polygamist offshoot ultimately grew to 17 million members and the largest non-polygamous offshoot has about 250 thousand. Common sense would say the more “cult-like” group would have gone into obscurity.
Honestly I would love to know how much of the posterity is still in the church. When I was at ByU 20 years ago, Dr. Holzapfel taught that >90% of General Authorities were from polygamist stalk.
@@jerry_phillipsmy husband’s grandma is from a polygamist line. Only half of his cousins (if that) are still in the church. I have no pioneer/polygamist lines but almost all of my cousins are still faithful. Of course that is a small sample size
@CwicShow Greg, you believe that the Deuteronomists during the Second Temple period made significant revisions to the scriptures, resulting in the loss or distortion of certain revealed doctrines, such as priesthood ordinances, teachings about the nature of God, Heavenly Mother, and more explicit references to Christ. Yet, during this time, faithful Jews still received revelation through priesthood keys and prophetic guidance, even though not all of these changes were corrected by prophetic authority. Why would it be incorrect to consider that a similar situation could happen again today? Perhaps the fact that these distortions didn’t cause believers to commit sin. So then it makes me wonder about other instances like Levitical law which seems to condone slavery and doesn’t appear corrected for quite some time. It appears that prophetic authority doesn’t override human agency or prevent the continuation of misguided interpretations, even if they are unintentional or even potentially harmful.
We should always ask the Lord "is it I?" The Lord has the most difficultly revealing the truth to the self righteous...those who believe they can not be deceived... because they never ask.
Emma didn't just deny Joseph practiced polygamy later in life. She denied it while he was alive. Surely Jacob has read "The Voice of Innocence" Jacob's excuse doesn't fly as allegedly Emma destroyed the revelation and in order to do so would have had to know there was a revelation commanding Joseph to take more wives so she would have been lying if she denied he did. Thankfully we know Emma never had a reputation for lying. We also know that she not only said she was Joseph's only wife but she also stated that the first time she ever heard of any plural marriage revelation was when it was published in the SEER in 1853!!!! Unlike the deniers, the accusers have to engage in mental gymnastics in order to prove their case while trying to not call the Smith's liars.
Why do we always forget the 3 Nephites and John the Beloved? They are still here and have authority directly from Christ. If the Brethren today should get off track it’s not line the authority will be lost. I sometimes wonder what they think of us for basically acting like they are just a myth
Jacob states that he believes Joseph was telling the truth. He clearly doesn’t as Joseph denied practicing or preaching polygamy dozens of times. He never once preached polygamy.
@@jaredshipp9207 D&C 132:42 makes certain rules. "42 If she be not in the new and everlasting covenant, and she be with another man, she has committed adultery." For starters, you cannot marry one that is already married or it is adultery. Joseph supposedly married other mens' wives. So either he wasn't following the rules, or he never practiced polygamy.
@@jaredshipp9207 there’s no evidence he taught it in private. The idea that he did runs contrary to his claim that he taught the strong doctrines in public: “I am bold to declare I have taught all the strong doctrines publicly, and always teach stronger doctrines in public than in private.” Do you believe him there? Was the doctrine of many wives and concubines a strong doctrine or not? The provenance of section 132 is sketchy at best. A word analysis of it doesn’t match Smith’s prior revelations. It was a copy of a supposed copy. Not to mention the circular logic, contradictory statements, held within the text alongside the biblically inaccurate descriptions of the old patriarchs. It’s a complete mess. It creates a duplicitous God who seemingly changed from moment to moment. 132 doesn’t match the Book of Mormon, which thoroughly condemns polygamy, and the book Joseph Smith claimed held the fullness of the Gospel. Was he lying then?
Jacob 2:30 is not saying what people think it’s saying. In Jacob 2:25 the Lord says he led Lehi and his family out of Jerusalem to raise up a “righteous branch from the fruit of the loins of Joseph.” The reference to the loins of Joseph obviously means raising up seed. The Lord then says he will not suffer the descendants of Lehi to do what they of old did and then gives the commandment of monogamy which is the Lords way of raising up a righteous branch, or in other words a righteous seed. Jacob 2:30 then says “For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.” In this verse the Lord is just emphasizing what he said in previous verses and the commandment he gave in Jacob 2:27 and he is saying “if I don’t command you to be monogamous, then you will hearken unto the practice of many wives and concubines like those of old.” In this chapter the word “thing” or “things” is used 4 times and every other time in this chapter it is referencing the practice of many wives and concubines, I think it is referencing this in Jacob 2:30 as well. This interpretation fits much better in the context of what is said in this sermon and what the Lord says after Jacob 2:30 when he is saying he has seen the sorrow of his daughters because of their husbands and that there will be consequences for not obeying his commandments.
If you want to believe that an angel came and told Joseph Smith and other leaders who were as old as in their 70s to take teenage brides as young as 12 then there’s no hope for you. Also concubines- I can’t get a good definition for them that doesn’t sound like sex trafficking. Is that really what y’all think god is? I don’t, it comes down to prayer and personal revelation. It offends him and I’ve repented for thinking god was like that.
@MoietyVR No, it says it was abominable. Jacob doesn't say anything about it being that they didn't do it "right": "Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord".
@@amypulley240You're showing you haven't done your own studied the The Old Testament, for yourself. The influencers your listening to and believe have cherry-picked the scriptures to support their anti polygamy narrative. They are ignorant themselves.
Abraham and Jacob were polygamists and the scriptures say they did no wrong in the sight of the Lord. Whatever you’re trying to argue here is a narrow view at best.
@@amypulley240 If it said "more than one wife which was abominable before me" I would a agree with you. Many prophets and patriarchs had multiples wife as did many among the common man. You see multiple stories in the bible referencing the practice of yibbum (marrying your deceased brothers widow even if you are already married). David and Solomon and I'm sure many in the early church took it to a place of lust which crossed a line.
There are passages of scripture in the Book of Mormon that give a strong argument that both the Nephites as well as the Jaredites practiced polygamy. If you look for yourself you will find them.
@@jaredshipp9207 false equivallancy. Besides do you think that hiding the full truth about something that was ordained of God (a monogamous marriage) is the same as lying to one's spouse and everyone else making him a hypocrite and a doer of "abominations" and "whoredoms" year after year?
@frankcastle5513 The plural marriage realists don't make Joseph that at all. That's simply the incorrect interpretation of things the plural marriage deniers walk away with due to their lack of understanding of both gospel doctrine and Church history.
This dude is so hilarious. Ad hominem all over the place. Ad hominem is not a logical argument that works for me. Have fun thinking you look good with an episode like this! You are presenting no winning facts and no logical winning arguments. You're also doing appeal to authority and appeal to fear. Authority= what the church teaches. Appeal to fear= fear of being an apostate, fear of losing membership on the church, and fear of losing a temple recommend
The subject of Brigham Young is becoming much like that of the Proclamation on the Family. Once I know a member's view on either, I immediately have a good idea of their understanding of gospel doctrine, Church history, and overall spiritual maturity.
Oh yeah, so many of us just "can't handle" [polygamy] with the "spiritual maturity" of people like David, Solomon, King Noah, & the Nephites condemned by Jacob. And when we fully mature spiritually, I guess, we can scoot pass the likes of such "spiritually immature" people like Jacob (2-3), Adam, Lehi, Nephi, Alma, Mormon, Emma, and Joseph (who ALWAYS denied it). And how about all those spiritually immature and fragile Nephite wives and daughters, of whom Jacob writes regarding their husband's polygamous affairs: "For behold, I, the Lord, have seen the sorrow, and heard the mourning of the daughters of my people ... because of the wickedness of their [polygamous] husbands.... Ye have broken the hearts of your tender wives, and lost the confidence of your children .... and the sobbings of their hearts ascend up to God against you [and] many hearts died, pierced with deep wounds." I guess they just need to attend one of JaredShipp's spiritual maturity seminars. And when we become more "spiritually mature," we can join others in CONDEMNING MONOGAMY as a tool of Satan and idolize POLYGAMY as the BEDROCK foundation of all other Gospel Principles--which is exactly where Brigham Young, et al, "matured" to. I think Isaiah might have warned us about this kind of "spiritual maturity": "and they shall call good evil, and evil good."
Greg I'm curious as to how much research you have done on the subject? And for that matter how much research has Jacob done? I have been researching this topic for over a decade and the historical evidence, if you look at ALL of it, proves Joseph was not the author of nor did he practice polygamy. You can discover the truth without going into apostasy and putting down the prophet and temple.
So JS practiced polygamy but then spoke publicly against it… so he’s a liar?!?! Jacob 2 speaks about polygamy clearly… so JS translated the BoM and then went against Jacob 2!?!? So then why did Emma not follow Brigham?!?!? Where are Joseph’s offsprings? That’s right Jesus can have his apostles betray him but our church is perfect and that can’t happen to us? The mind acrobatics is amazing!!!
That's the kind of false question Jacob addressed in the video. If you were hiding Jews during WWII and Nazis knocked on your door looking for them, what would you do? Say you haven't seen any or turn them over to the Nazis? This is akin to the situation Joseph was in. It's not rocket science.
@@poohandtigger It's a very appropriate analogy. The issue of plural marriage was a major reason Joseph ended up being killed. He had very good reason to keep it secret.
My own ancestor was married to Joseph Smith as a plural wife... she and her sister have never denied those marriages, and Emma was aware of them. (The Partridge sisters) It always boggles the mind when people deny it occurred. Whether or not any or some of these were consumated is not known.
Levirate marriage is not polygamy and Franklin Richards who wrote that entry was not in that meeting. Levirate marriage is addressed twice in the Bible, and neither case ends up in a polygamous union.
According to AI: Levirate marriage is a custom or law that requires a widow to marry her deceased husband's brother. The term comes from the Latin word levir, which means "husband's brother".
Most people couldn’t have done what Brigham Young did. He not only kept the church together under very difficult circumstances he grew it while it was in a very isolated area. The polygamy later brought the Edmunds Tucker Act and the US Marshall’s. Wilford Woodruff issued the Manifesto. Polygamy officially ended. It ended right when the modern world engulfed Utah and it was time for the church to expand into it. Without Brigham there would be nothing to expand. You would have a few Joseph Smith based church’s back east. Some are still there with a few thousand members but not really filling the world like Brigham’s church.
This may be the best explanation for the madness of polygamy. However we will never know how history would have turned out had the Saints been humble enough to build Zion with Joseph….
@@ED-wired You never know. Not our place to judge. The bottom line is is your testimony needs to be spiritual. Trying to intellectually find the truth is messy. All it does is make people argue because we have our own opinions. A Jewish friend of mine jokes and says have seven Jews get seven opinions. I laughed and said it’s no different in my church.
BY did a number of impressive things, to be fair. But I don't know that it's accurate to say he "kept the church together." He led one fragment of at least several. And yes, the fragment he led has grown into the largest of the fragments. But I don't think you could rightly say that he "kept the church together" if "church" refers to the one restored through Joseph. And of course, those of us within the LDS church have a brighamite-centric perception that the church that we know is one and the same as that existed at the time of Joseph's martyrdom. But that's really a matter of perception and subject to debate.
And by their fruits ye shall know them. The fruits of the Gospel are wonderful. The fruits of polygamy are still hanging around. It's awful. It's not too hard to see that Satan tried to corrupt the church immediately with polygamy. Infidelity is the emotional reaction. Sex control and power over others is the fruits. Let's just repent and stay the course correction. The Lord sent the US Government to ensure the course correction took place. I don't have any issues with church history. I'm a card carrying member. It seems reasonable to see polygamy was wrong and the church is true today as it was then.
The wonderful fruits of the Gospel are also due to obedience to the law of plural marriage when God required it of the early saints, as was pointed out in this video. Plural marriage is opposite of polygamy, and the fruits are the opposite of each other. Polygamy is of man but plural marriage is of God.
@plummer50000 The faulty conclusion you've come to about plural marriage shows you're NOT staying the course. It's the history revisionists like Michelle Stone and others who need to repent. This issue is going to sift a lot of tares out of the Church.
You can’t use the books by Brian Hales as a source of evidence or facts when over and over it has been shown that he purposely failed to include information that may have shown an alternate view
What if we viewed polygamy as more of a transgression-an attempt by the adversary to derail God’s plan? Yet, God, being the ultimate strategist, allowed the ostracism and isolation of the early Latter-day Saints because of polygamy as a way to preserve the doctrines, truths, and people of the Restoration. What the adversary intended to use to undermine and corrupt the Restoration, God turned into a means of protection. It’s an example of God being a master weaver, working through human agency. Though the tapestry may look chaotic and messy from our limited perspective, from His view, it’s part of a greater divine design. It worked with the founding of the Israel and the Abraham of covenant, despite Sarai and Rachel causing some problems. Not sure this undermines prophetic authority any more than the Old Testament already demonstrates. Note: not sure I even believe this fully, but it’s perhaps a working model until further light and knowledge is provided.
The inability of some to understand and accept Joseph taught and practiced plural marriage, and that Brigham and other prophets were justified in continuing to do so until the Lord commanded otherwise, sifted a lot of tares out of the Church at the time. And its doing so again.
@@jaredshipp9207 watching this happen, makes me wonder if this isn’t pretty much like the battle we fought in heaven. All of heavenly father‘s children knew that if they refused to accept his plan, they would be cast out and they would lose their first estate. I believe this must have been where Lucifer convinced them that they didn’t have to worry about that because he would rise up and set his throne above the father. So today we have people that have set their teeth on fighting one way, or the other, to the point that if their bishops inform them, that their continuation of preaching this could cost them their membership in the church, they feel that’s OK being kicked out of the membership of the church because this is not what really matters after all, it is their membership in the kingdom of God and they’re standing before the Lord on Judgment day. there is some truth to that. But on the other hand, being kicked out of the church, leaves a Family, unable to fulfill the promises they made, when they raised their arm to the square, saying that they would follow their leaders in the church. I think this is a time when people need to swallow their pride and say, it is not life and death, threatening as to which side is correct, but the most important thing is that we move forward today, looking at the positive and keeping ourselves on the covenant path. I fear that some, are so full of determination, that they will allow this issue to drive them literally out of the church and also kingdom.
Joseph and hyrum denied practicing it, they condemned it. Excommunicated those who they found out were practicing it. They were killed before they could expose the rest
I'll be a "tare" then. I stand with what Joseph Smith actually said about marriage. He said polygamy was a crime. D&C 101 1835 & 1844 edition... which was the law of the church by common consent until 8 years after he died. I'll risk it to stand with Joseph.
Inside the church I can see the concern about polygamy even if it hasn’t ever been an issue I have had. Outside the church I can’t. In today’s world polygamy takes the form of hookup culture where you sleep with anyone and everyone. It also takes the form of open marriages where you are married but if you want to sleep with someone else that’s fine.
It pretty funny how it’s swapped right??! Prior generations inside the church had no problem with polygamy and outside the church was a huge issue with it; today that was swapped positions 😂😂😂
Not denying it Happened, denying some of the continued consequences of it that are not good for the church-missionary work, widows not given a chance to remarry or even be sealed to a spouse in this life, members believing it is required for exaltation or before the 2nd coming. Compare it to the harm of not letting blacks hold the priesthood. There are plenty of arguments for and against it, but Joseph never implemented it…..
The only reason people go down the rabbit hole is because Joseph Smith denied living polygamy. How could you dare blame this on the members of the church who now have a concern about the validity of testimonies shared for the last 100+ years. The fundamental issue at hand is the profit of the church denied living. Something that now members of the church are testifying he lived.
@@ED-wired We have plenty of current beliefs that hinder missionary work, aside from a practice of polygamy that while divinely inspired, ended 134 years ago. Some of them are: 1) We are male or female, only two genders/sex exist, and the celestial order set forth with Adam and Eve (male/female procreative marriage contracts with god) will be the only recognized acts of obedience dealing with the subject. 2) Modern Revelation 3) Agency 4) Word of Wisdom 5) New scripture 6) Obeying the commandments not just knowing what they are I could go on. The church is in God’s hands, His anointed will lead it where He needs it to go in order to bring His true disciples unto Him, like has always been the case.
Probably because Joseph, Hyrum, Emma, Lucy Mack, Samuel and many others denied it. We are told they lied for the Lord. So how do I know when the prophet is telling me the Truth?
Labeling people "polygamy deniers" is not good, Jacob. It's a tactic that minimizes a message by minimizing the messenger. Whether you know it or not, it is unfortunately an effective tool for alternative messages that cannot stand on their own. It's the same tactic critics of the Restoration use when they realize their own position is weak.
Love this episode. Great and articulate explanation of a difficult topic in the church. Church history was messy and beautiful at the same time. For me, I choose to see our past and current leaders in a positive light. It is so easy to do otherwise and destroy the trust and beauty of being led by inspired but fallible leaders. It becomes a slippery slope so easily once I start looking for too much negative things in the restored gospel of Jesus Christ.
The topic of plural marriage troubled me for a time when I first read sect 132. I pondered it and took it to the Lord. I received an answer sufficient to my understanding, albieit limited, but I graciously accepted the answer and I won’t share that here what that was because among the comments is demonstrated a lot of reliance on the arm of flesh for answers I am not the prophet I don’t deny that sources exist going one way or another, however, I see people not turning to the ultimate source truth and because of that they wouldn’t want to hear my understanding of what plural marriage is or is not and it’s an understanding that cannot be understood in our “broken language” but only by the Spirit of God.
May this be a very sober lesson to us to make sure to document stuff because we may be loosing members over stuff like this. It’s very important to document. It’s unfortunate that this was done in secret so that things don’t appear to documented like we have on other things.
Given the circumstances of the day with enemies constantly trying to find faults with the church and attacking it, documenting everything in those days had risks as well. Same circumstances with the First Vision. Joseph tells some people early one about seeing God. Joseph gets very negative reactions so he probably was guarded on who he spoke of it to. So we don't know have any documented evidence of the First Vision prior to 1832 BUT there is a reference by an individual (can't remember his name right now) in 1829 who said that Joseph claimed he saw God. So the information was being being transmitted orally. Joseph was having enough problems in the 1820s so having documented evidence of the First Vision floating around in those days probably would cause more problems for him.
We can start with all of the documents that Joseph, Hyrum, and Emma produced and published in their lifetime. Then try to square those with everything that was claimed after they were no longer alive to defend themselves
According to the Bible, Jesus made a no-exception rule that remarriage while a spouse is living is adultery. This was embraced by all Christians up until about 100 years ago. Even Dallin Oaks admitted this is “the ideal”, but claims that it is more or less not expected to be lived up to at the present time. I’m more interested in learning about this problematic issue than the current blah blah about polygamy (which I also believe to be unscriptural).
The problem with the bla bla bla polygamy crap is that there are members who believe we will legit be practicing it again before Jesus comes. That’s kinda big deal if you’re not really into your husband banging other women in the name of god
I would like the guest to explain more whats behind sec 132. Credi le people havee pointed out how the language style is different. Suggesting someone else wrote it. My sister showed me where a document in the Joseph Smith papers appears to disprove plural marriage. And why is Brian Hales supposedly so credible? Hes an anesthesiologist.
Because he's done more study on it than just about anyone. And every proper since the Restoration has said the same thing in regards to how plural marriage was revealed. The apostates simply don't believe it, neither then or now. It's history repeating itself with more tares being sifted out.
Not only is it clear from comparing D&C 132 to Joseph's other revelations that it sounds nothing like him but Joseph was a student of the Bible who also did a translation of and made corrections to the Bible. He would not have been so foolish as to list Isaac as a polygamist in D&C 132. He also translated the BOM and would not have been foolish enough to contradict Jacob 2 regarding David and Solomon. If all that isn't enough a writing analysis was done on D&C 132 and concluded that it did not come from Joseph but more likely Brigham, who it does sound more like. Not only is Brian an anesthesiologist but he also has a family member who is currently practicing polygamy. He also said in an interview that it would be scary if we didn't have any contemporaneous evidence regarding Joseph practicing polygamy. Then went on to say that thankfully we have the accounts of John C. Bennett and William Law. i honestly don't know how anyone can take someone who would pretend that those two men have any credibility whatsoever seriously.
@@nostoppingit7243 All the historians in the Church, as well as the Brethren themselves, say plural marriage started with Joseph. So this "Brian is just an anesthesiologist" isn't going to work.
@@jaredshipp9207 Interesting because being an anesthesiologist was not the only issue about Brian that I brought out. Not only is Brian an anesthesiologist but he also has a family member who is currently practicing polygamy. He also said in an interview that it would be scary if we didn't have any contemporaneous evidence regarding Joseph practicing polygamy. Then went on to say that thankfully we have the accounts of John C. Bennett and William Law. i honestly don't know how anyone can take someone who would pretend that those two men have any credibility whatsoever seriously. He also admitted, as almost every historian has, that the evidence is lacking, ambiguous and problematic.
@nostoppingit7243 First, you're assuming that because he has someone in his family who's involved in polygamy, his objectivity must somehow be compromised. And again, you ignore all the historians, in and out of the Church, who are convinced plural marriage began with Joseph. Not to mention the Church itself. Second, for the sake of argument, even if Joseph didn't practice plural marriage, or practiced it differently than Brigham and others did later on, this should be no problem for a believing Latter-day Saint since we believe in prophetic succession and continuing revelation. The fact some members still do have a problem is proof positive it's not really about what Joseph did or didn't do for them. They make a big show about "believing Joseph" so they can feign loyalty to the Restoration but the only things they are really adhering to is their inability to emotionally handle the issue, accept the historical record, and actually understand the scriptures.
Thank you for this topic Greg. I find it interesting that people are so anti polygamy but yet having five “baby-mamas” is okay. At least polygamist take care of their families. I get that this is a trial of faith for some, but I also think it is ridiculous that people now days are judging people who lived long ago. Just my thoughts we cannot change the past but we don’t have to repeat it.
My great- great grandparents were called to have a polygamist marriage. Together they courted and befriended a young woman of marrying age and they were sealed to her. She died after the birth of her first child. Polygamy is apart of my family’s story and it isn’t a dark corner that we don’t look in or talk about. It’s a story of faithful followers of Christ’s church and His mouthpiece the prophet. I’m so grateful for their example.
@@debbiemelander289 just because somebody in your family did something doesn’t make it right. One of my ancestors is Roman emperor Nero, who crucified and tortured christians and killed babies. Do I feel a responsibility to defend “the false traditions of my fathers”? No. Because the Book of Mormon warns against that, as well as polygamy, time and time again. Read your Book of Mormon without your Utah glasses on.
Just because you have an opinion about something doesn’t mean it’s right. The fact that you make derogatory remarks about where you think I live and how I should read the Book of Mormon discredits your position.
@@debbiemelander289 Not really. Sometimes, its not an opinion, it’s just that you are under a poor misconception and need to revisit the text instead of believing what you were taught by someone else.
I could say the same thing about you. The point is, you and I are not enemies. You have the right to your convictions and the dictates of your conscience without other people of your faith mocking you. I have the same right. With all the persecution and hate thrown at us constantly from outside our faith it’s truly sad that that derision should be found among each other. Believe what you wish, brother. Don’t attack me for not agreeing with you. We are, after all, on the same team.
@@debbiemelander289 Mostly on the same team. Polygamy is an abomination.
Smith had not a single child outside of Emma.
So? You can be married to someone without having sex with them.
Yup - Multiple women made claims (25 or 46 years after Joseph died) that they were married to Joseph, including claims of having sexual relations.
But somehow:
1) Emma had 9 pregnancies over their 17 year marriage
2) All the other wives (27? 30? 40?) are shown that not a single one of them had a child by Joseph. Even if we go with historian estimates that "only" 1/3 are said to have had intimate relations with Joseph, still, zero children.
@@piapia-d9g HIstorians weren't there and present no valid evidence of that, so they are making opinions that are unfounded totally.
@ThePianoPimp This is correct. DNA evidence shows conclusively that no other children were fathered by Joseph outside of he and Emma's relationship. We know that Joseph was sealed to other women in his life, but it appears that in at least a few of these situations, that this sealing was thought of as a spiritual thing that wouldn't bring with it the temporal requirements of a typical marriage. In addition, it's difficult to know the real number of women that Joseph was sealed to since many of them were recorded posthumously.
Exactly. Joseph was purportedly married to Louisa Beaman for 3 years (2 years before her baptism), who then married Brigham Young the same year of Joseph's assassination, and bore Brigham 5 children in 4 years.
Hi Greg,
I messaged you yesterday and hoped to hear back. Jacob Hansen does not represent my views accurately at all. This was a bit like the equivalent of reading one of John Bennett's letters to learn about Joseph Smith. We may disagree on some aspects of polygamy or history, but I honestly believe that if you talk to me (instead of talking to someone setting himself up as my enemy about me) you will find that we share a lot of common ground.
I really hope you will respond to my message, or here, and that you will have me on to represent my own views. I am happy to answer any questions so you and your audience can sus out any points of agreement or disagreement. I am looking forward to hearing from you.
Greg, please have her on!
I have watched almost all of Michelle’s videos and I genuinely believe that Jacob misrepresented her in a horribly unfair way.
Michelle has such great questions with our polygamous history.
And to not have a discussion with her to see if she can add anything to the table, I feel like would be a huge missed opportunity.
If she is wrong, let her condemn herself through her own words.
But if she is right, let her defend herself through her own words.
Greg I will go so far as to say if you don’t have have a conversation with Michelle, I’m done listening to you. I’ve been a big fan of yours for a long time. You bring a lot of truth to the table, but you just went out of your depth of expertise. No one questions the hours and hours of research you bring light and knowledge to, but if you don’t have a conversation with Michelle and her thousands of hours of research, it will say a lot about you? I believe in you Greg please don’t disappoint us.
Hi Michelle. I haven't seen any other message. I leave tomorrow out of the country for the rest of September. I will consider it when I get back.
@@vhasara, I appreciate that you've followed the channel for a long time. I will say I don't respond well to void threats. They don't really move the needle. My decision will have nothing to do with whether or not you listen to me. I do wish you the best, though.
@@MichelleBStone you are currently a heretic and apostate. Stop playing stupid and innocent. I know you are mentally challenged, but try to be honest about your views of me, the temple, priesthood keys and authority, and my friends president Nelson and president Oaks. Also thanks to you, many women (and low testosterone men) are being emotionally manipulated into your weird and skewed paradigms. Joseph, the lord and myself would appreciate it if you stopped. It’s never too late to repent-but you better do it quick or you will end up in pretty bad places spiritually, though it appears you have already crossed that line. Anyways, I must continue doing the Lords work here in the world of spirits, but I hope this message finds you well and somehow sticks in that little brain of yours :)
Forget section 132... What about the original section 101? We can factually guarantee that section was approved by Joseph Smith. So he was either a deceiving liar or telling the truth.
132 actually claims to be a revelation. 101 is a policy, not a revelation.
@bilagaana1238 did Joseph approve it and publish it multiple times in the "Times and Seasons"?
@@ejs7721
Yes, he did for 101. Was this publication a claimed revelation from God?
@bilagaana1238 No, and I never said it was.
@@ejs7721
Sounds good. Policies change.
My grandmother, born in 1889, saw the after effects of polygamy and didn’t like it.
Which effects? From doing it after God said to stop? Or did it include effects of plural marriages authoized by God?
@@stephtimms1776it was chaos, secrecy, lies in the beginning, middle and end. Joseph fought against the encroachment of polygamy. Keys do not mean infallible. Only Christ is infallible. Coming to know truth that God never commanded polygamy increased my faith in God, Joseph, the restoration, grace for the Church as well as people
@@BridgeBuilder-x4c That accusation is false. Unathorzed plural marriages were and are like that, but God authorized it for some and it was done properly by some. You not knowing that does not make it okay for you to bear a false witness about it never happening.
Good for her!
I read a book I the eighties that I purchased at an LDS bookstore in Canada and the owner was very careful about the books she put on the shelf. It was either written by Emma or Joseph’s mother. It used the word purportedly a lot. However, the polygamy issue eventually became a non-issue for me…….it never was a big issue for me. I know what I believe through the spirit and I have a very strong testimony. In fact it grows stronger from time to time. People need to stop getting hung up on these “controversial” issues! I’m good with it either way and I have my own theories that I seldom voice my opinion about. At the end of the day, there are more important things to worry about……..like our relationship with God!
Indeed
I love that the truth is coming out.
"Polygamy is like war." Lol
You started out with a bang. 😅😂
Joseph Smith taught against, condemned, and fought against polygamy in every possible way he could.
Give up while you can. You cannot overthrow key historical data with anomalies. Neither can your "prophetess" Michelle-the-belle.
@@PresidentBrighamYoungseriously, you don’t need to follow any influencer to know the truth. If people would stick to primary sources and not all these second-hand tales, the spirit will reveal the truth of all things
@@ED-wired agreed :)
Then God commanded him to do plural marriage honorably.
Your view is valid, but only if you ignore multiple other primary sources. That’s your issue that you don’t want to address. There are easy explanations for each of Joseph’s statements and his supposed statements, but there is nothing on the many that contradict you. Cant just leave those alone with absolutist statements like you comment.
It would be helpful if this guest would talk directly with a guest from the polygamy deniers on a platform to go over the issues one at a time and see each side presented from each guest in first person in their own words
Agreed, although polygamy denier isn’t a title I would prefer 😆 it definitely happened, but were the consequences worth it….
Precisely
Exactly Jacob! You told Michelle Stone you would go on her show but you are a liar !
Jacob Hansen had a formal debate with Jacob Izbell on this topic that can be found on Thoughtful Faith
There are no polygamy deniers. Polygamy in the church is a historically proven fact. There are however monogamy believers.
I have loved your channel ....
But this episode was extremely disappointing.
So many untrue statements & assumptions, to list everything that was in error, is beyond the scope of a mere comment.
I have no problem with Brigham being the one to start polygamy, he also taught other untrue doctrines, that later have been discounted by later prophets.
I have no problem that prophets can make mistakes.
Brigham Young sure made his fair share.
Doesn't mean that the Lord isn't still guiding His church now.
We all should have the spirit of discernment .... it's very easy to see what narrative Jacob feels best about .... that's fine for him.
But he can't group those who see concerns with early church history being tampered with . ...as all apostates.
That's sad ..... why is it not okay to research history and follow what the spirit is teaching you?
We believe in personal revelation, hopefully based on facts and inspiration.
Hyrum & Joseph Smith preached against polygamy until their dying day .....
That's a fact.
Why don't we want to look at that?
Polygamy destroyed families & was not pleasing to God.
If God is the same, yesterday, today, and forever .... why does he change such an important doctrine that is the basis of family life? The core of the gospel .... the purpose of our existence for eternity.
God gave Adam & Eve the Doctrine of monogamy ....
One man is to be with one woman.
God doesn't change something so fundamental to His plan
Great comment and I totally agree!!! I've been a member all my life for 61 years and now know for myself polygamy was never commanded by God because it is so damaging and demeaning to women. Why would God tell Jacob in the Book of Mormon that this practice is evil and an abomination and then command Joseph to practice it when it clearly serves absolutely NO purpose!!!
Well said!
Thank you for this comment. Greg, if you see my comment, I want you to know I love your channel and appreciate your content. I am not bothered with the possibility that I can be wrong, so it's not simply that this video takes a position with which I (still) disagree. But there are some false assumptions here that I think do need to be confronted by the mainstream of the church.
❤❤❤
@@KeithSeelyamen!
Thank you Greg for addressing this topic. An additional fact I found in my research is the records of the 1865 general conference of the RLDS Church. Joseph III proposed as an article of faith that his father never practiced polygamy, but was voted down because the older RLDS members who were adults in Nauvoo all said that in fact Joseph had practiced polygamy (and note that these were RLDS people who thought polygamy was wrong). Joseph III waited until all those older RLDS members had died off before he then put into place the RLDS position that Joseph never practiced polygamy. Note also that the RLDS Church (now Community of Christ) has now acknowledged that the historical record is clear that polygamy came from Joseph.
MATTHEW 19::4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, 5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? 6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
By polygamy does it mean just sealings? Or actually physical marriages - sex etc
Interesting.
if you’re going to post this information, show some semblance of source material please
Source please?
I really loved this conversation you guys. I think this topic is one of the most important things to address, far too many people and leaders shy away from the topic and it leaves a vacuum for people like Michelle Stone to take a place in the conversation. I especially loved the closing sentiments regarding family, I feel so strongly that is the most important message of the restoration and I do fear it is being dimmed in recent times. I appreciate you guys and all you do to defend the truth, more than I can explain.
Jacob admits he is not an expert on the topic. Study it out. Polygamy is an abomination. And eventually will go the way of the Priesthood ban I hope.
@@BridgeBuilder-x4c And when the prophets of old practiced polygamy? What say you?
Pres Hinckley said on Larry King live that polygamy is not doctrinal. Does that mean something is only doctrinal if the laws of the land allow it to be?
Just because David was justified to have more wives, does that mean it was a sanctifying ordinance? We see where he went…
God has never commanded polygamy in the scriptures….God never commanded Abraham or Jacob to have more than one wife or concubine (sex slave).
Joseph never fathered children. I thought polygamy was to raise up seed?
The Book of Mormon is very clear about multiple wives. Remember the whole story of King Noah? Sometimes I wonder if this is why the church is still under condemnation (as it says in D&C)-because we don’t really take the BOM seriously.
Elder Cook said in Sep 2018 Church News that the general rankings of church leaders believe polygamy will no longer be relevant in the restoration but that we can be grateful for those that practiced in the past-for their sacrifice.
Have you really studied out the implications of polygamy and its effect on the culture of the church, widows, missionary work and those that practiced it?
More importantly, have you inquired of the Lord?? The Ultimate Source?
Michelle Stone has some obvious issues, but I do believe some of the things she has brought to light about Joseph and polygamy is true. Two things can be true at once.
I believe Joseph and Emma. I believe Joseph sealed himself to other women but did not father children for a reason. It wasn’t a sexual thing-which we believe marriage to be. It was like dealing children to their parents.
Most of his sealings occurred after his death.
I get that it’s messy, but the church has had a long-standing narrative about the whole thing that will have more clarification about in the future.
In the meantime, we will serve the Lord. President Nelson is the Lord’s prophet on the earth today and temple ordinances bind us to our Everlasting Savior, Jesus Christ.
Jacob 2:30 is absolutely clear God gets to command polygamy. You quote Jacob 2:30, so please take it seriously. God can and did say it was okay for a while, then He took it away. God's choice.
@@ED-wired if you seal someone to you when you are dead?? Obviously you are not the one doing the sealing since you are dead ?? Gezz if some were sealed to him when they were dead but Joseph was alive again they are dead so how would you know that they wanted this? Joseph Smith was not required to live the law of Sarah . It was a test . Joseph Smith had one wife . Her name was Emma . I believe Joseph Smith and Emma . It is right there in doctrine and covenants when Joseph Smith asks about king David . He explains that the ones given to king David were from God and whdn Fsvix kidnapped Bathsheba forcing her and then set up her husband in war to die . This is what he did wrong . And lost all. Shame on you for saying the Lord did not command Abraham . Yes the Lord did . If you belong to the church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints this has all been explained . So maybe you should learn and search and study more what our leaders actually teach in these particular subjects . The gospel certainly does teach the Abraham Issac and Jacob were commanded and other Holy Prophets of God . W have further light and knowledge on this . Though not found in the Bible Issac is said in the doctrine and covenants to have more than one wife .
You are taking Pres. Hinckley's comment to Larry King out of context. They were specifically talking about people outside of the Church who are illegally practicing polygamy in modern times, who do not have the sanction of God through a prophet to do so. He did not condemn the earlier practice in our Church under the direction of prophets. He did not make a blanket statement that polygamy is not doctrinal.
@@gemelindacjp7976 exactly
@@BradKandyCroftFamily Sure, if you take it out of context. I recommend OneClimbs' article on the subject.
Regarding the plurality of wives in the hereafter, President Nelson literally just gave thanks during his birthday celebration that he was sealed to his first and second wife.
and what?
@@veritas9243 ...and it would only matter if you believed that Joseph did in fact teach the doctrine of the plurality of wives and eternal marriage through the sealing relationship and it's rightful ordinances. So if it does matter to you, then you will see that sealing isn't about mere sexuality, but about connecting the family of God in one unbroken chain of Christ centered covenants. That's what it is. May God bless you one way or another.
Jacob, do you believe Emma was crazy and evil?
@@deborahbeeton3634 You may want to corner him in the main thread if you're trying to his attention. This is just my sub-thread. Also, not believing something someone says, doesn't equate with "crazy and evil" such as what Emma said towards the end of her life. Anyone can disagree or choose to see Emma as plenty of other things than crazy and evil whether they do or don't believe her claim that Joseph never practiced polygamy. For instance, maybe she had dementia or maybe she was just simply in denial, and that's what someone chooses to believe about what she said, but they can still choose to adore her for who she is and her massive role in the opening scenes of the restoration.
@@xrpreacher6000 got it
Correction: Abram practiced polygamy, kind of and at the behest of his wife, but in Genesis 17, he is commanded to repent and then he is forgiven and receives a New Name. So Abraham did not commit polygamy.
Genesis 32 tells the same story for Israel, who after his wrestle and receiving of a New Name, prevailed against the ways of men
Yep. Hagar was essentially a sex slave and was cast out-& the scriptures refer to Isaac repeatedly as Abraham’s firstborn-not her son. There’s was nothing Godly about that situation. They were enacting cultural norms, not following some commandment. No where does God command Him in scripture. He remarried again after Sarah died. He was never a polygamist. Neither was Isaac. Jacob was tricked into marrying sisters by his wicked FIL. I don’t see where people get that polygamy is good and commanded by God from these cautionary tales, & I don’t understand why people don’t stop and take pause on the very first verse of doctrine and covenants 132. The first verse shows errors & that something isn’t right with that section.
Stop lying. Abraham did practice polygamy and had no reason to repent. Read the account of King David when God condemned his adultery with Bathsheba. God said he gave David multiple wives, but Bathsheba was forbidden.
@@theephraimite yep the prophet Nathaniel reproves David in relation to Bathsheba. There is no condemnation in regards to his other wives from him.
@@DerekPayne1791 Genesis 17 is temple liturgy. Ironically Michelle doesn’t put stock in the importance of the temple nor make the connections. She is one who will not receive further light and knowledge from the living apostles and prophets and so she is having that which she hath taken from her until she shall not be able to understand any of the mysteries of God.
She once having been enlightened shall become more dark and the fruit she is bearing is already becoming bitter.
@@DerekPayne1791 Poligamy= 2 or more wives, then Abraham commit adultery?
Jacob 2 where it says polygamy is an abomination is a chiasmus without the ridiculous loophole interpretation.
It is absolutely an abomination if not appointed unto it. In Jacobs time sounds like those people were living it terribly. If one is going to attempt to live a principle wrong and fake it, then it is wrong for them, it is a mockery to God.
@@EM-od6gu No, there isn’t a right way and these verses are a chiasmus without the interpretation that there’s a loophole for polygamy which is against gods law
@@Hmcc0712 God commands murder, so He's commanding against His own law? What would you tell Nephi, Joshua, or Saul? God commands, and we can call it an interpolation all we want, but it's to our own destruction.
There was more men than women in Utah at the time. By a lot! 2:1 ratio of men to women.
@@EM-od6guyou have to chop up and footnote to 132 to pretend there is a loophole in Jacob 1-3.
Joseph Smith addressed the accusation that his revelation was on plural marriage right before his death. He said it was not about plural marriage but eternal marriage.
Hyrum corrected anyone who misinterpreted his high council speech by later condemning polygamy in the strongest of terms.
In all, Joseph, Hyrum and Emma Smith denied, condemned and fought polygamy DOZENS of times that we have contemporary records of.
At the 9 minute mark jacob said that he believes that joseph was telling the truth about practicing polygamy. Can anyone help me find that quote where Joseph said that?
You'll never find a quote of Joseph saying he practiced polygamy. But there are numerous quotes of him denying it!
Jacob Hansen is so disingenuous. He says Joseph told the truth about polygamy; he says Joseph lied about polygamy. Jacob says what he needs to say to stay relevant in his little bubble that he lives in. What a joke.
@@hhsisters5508 such a narcissist move
Joseph often spoke publicly:
1) Against polygamy and for then-section-101 "one-man-one-woman"
2) That he did not teach anything else privately
For Jacob to claim that he believes Joseph in the video was way out of left field.
"We the undersigned members of the city council of Nauvoo... solemnly declare before God, angels, and men, to all people to whom this certificate may come that no such principle as polygamy, or spiritual wifery, has ever been taught, publicly or privately, by Joseph Smith, and that there is no doctrine or practice in this church which is contrary to the laws of the land or to good order and harmony."
Joseph Smith along with others in the Nauvoo Neighbor newspaper on June 19, 1844
@@piapia-d9gone quote doesn't negate multiple quotes from people who claimed he taught it to them in Nauvoo. Is Brian C. Hales a fraud to you?
I'm sorry Greg but this episode does not pass the sniff test. Bro. Hansen's use of "Ah, Um, maybe, I think" makes him sound like a Monday Morning Quarter Back. Second guessing the written testimony of Emma Hale Smith, putting words into Michelle Stones's mouth, and on and on. Sorry, but this episode was very disappointing.
And Jacob saying he believes Joseph, that was a stinkarooney of a statement.
Which statements of Joseph's? It appears that all of Joseph's statements on it were:
1) against polygamy
2) that he wasn't teaching it in private
One of the worst arguments for polygamy is that church used it to take care of widowed women. Isn’t that what the law of the fast is for?
Yes and no. Back then married women had different legal rights than unmarried women.
@@amynazza The Utah church left the US territory so that they wouldn't be under US law. Therefore, they could make up whatever rules and rights they wanted (including polygamy, which was against the law). Thus, "they" could have given women any rights they wanted to but instead ended up treating women like livestock. Taking care of widows is not a good argument for polygamy.
@@ED-wired The law of the fast doesn't give them a warm body to be close to, nor gives them the "laying on of hands." 😂
@@tgray747😂 savage
So, just let widows live alone? And their children fatherless?
What is the church? It is an organization where people can meet to learn the gospel of Jesus Christ and support and strengthen each other in following that gospel.
The purpose of the apostles, really? Because the purpose of the apostles that Christ called was to be missionaries and oddly enough that was the purpose of the apostles prior to Joseph Smith's death.
I personally feel like I could still believe that Brigham was a prophet and was to lead the church and had the keys and also that polygamy was wrong. That’s what I have to do with priesthood and the blacks. So to me it’s not that different than what I currently have to do. 🤷♀️
That's an untenable position. One can't say Brigham and other succeeding prophets essentially created what the deniers consider institutionalized adultery and yet retain the priesthood keys. And therein is the problem with the revisionist history by the plural marriage deniers - they inevitably come to the conclusion the Church is in apostasy, when it's not and never was, and they apostitize.
And by the way, like plural marriage, the Priesthood restriction began with Joseph and was more fully instituted by Brigham. There were reasons for both, though most don't understand the history and doctrine behind them.
I’m not saying I believe one way or the other. I’m just saying I could hold that position and not let go of anything else about Brigham and the gospel like succession or the temple.
I view it more like I have to do with people who misuse authority or maybe honestly misunderstand doctrine. I’ve been in wards where a bishop sexually abused someone. Does it make the church not true? No, still true. We had a stake president in the 90s reject temple recommends for women for not wearing pantyhose because he believed it was required? Does that make the church not true? Nope, still true. Brigham taught things or said things we don’t believe today and I still think he was a prophet.
It appears for some people they go apostate after considering polygamy was possibly wrong for me it’s not really a problem. That’s all.
So you're saying that you're able to believe that Brigham Young and all those church leaders were in their position and excercising the priesthood while also violating, and teaching others to violate, the law of chastity? Which law is taught in the temple....
Yeah, that doesn't make sense.
👍 I also believe he was the one that kept blacks out of the church. He can be a Prophet and still make his own decisions. We gotta separate the two.
@@kristinpruett7733 Wrong. The doctrine and policy underlying the priesthood restriction began with Joseph, as did plural marriage. Brigham simply built upon it, as he was able to do under his prophetic mantle, just as he did with the temple ordinances.
What about when brigham said that a woman could leave her husband for a man with a higher priesthood without a bill of divorce? Or when he told missionaries to stop marrying the pretty english converts before they got to utah so that everyone got a fair shake at them? Or how brigham called Emma the most evil woman on earth.
Emma died a faithless apostate.
I think Brigham had many issues and opinions that I absolutely disagree with. I do believe overall he is a righteous man. Even some of Gods best men do dumb things hense the need for Christ.
@@EM-od6gu he was a psycopath. The church is still recovering from his reign of blood and horror.
@@JojoD89 give your true sorce please that he actually said these things and not just gossip and hateful lies .
@@EM-od6gu name one and please have the true source .
Why don't you interview Michelle Stone now?
Please please don’t waste yours and our time with Michelle. She talks in circles and is a completely different person when challenged by someone with some knowledge.
It will end in confusion and we know where that comes from.
I feel like Gwendolyn’s video is a better resource.
@@Ily779 Gwendolyn's claims the early saints practiced spiritual wifery, which is sharing wives. That is immorality. These kind of false ideas are taught in colleges now, along with lies like critial race theory and other revisionist history.
@@Ily779 Gwendolyn's video is not better. She says things just as off as Michelle.
bingo! I bet he could not. He knows it would make him lool bad and Michelle look good. He wouldn't look good at all. He has to talk to another person, who says "to be fair," but who isn't being fair.
Thank you for this interview and for the one with Michelle Stone! I gleaned a lot from both. I actually have a lot more respect for both of them and you for thoroughly delving into such controversial topics after hearing out both sides!
You can’t say “I believe Joseph” to support polygamy. Every first hand statement by him denies anything to do with polygamy, including D&C 132.
Bingo. Jacob Hansen is a liar. Greg, shame on you for mot vetting him more. He is clueless about polygsmy, and he outright lied several times. Your reputation will suffer by engaging with Bozos like Jacob Hansen. Have a real expert on your show!
Layoff the kool-aid.
“Marriage and sex are not the same thing”. Amen brother!!
The issue is there is no contemporary evidence during JS life, certainly not the practice BY instituted.
Most of your broadcasts are great to watch, but this one seems a little "MSNBC' like--biased presentation. It would be great to have someone from the other side of the issue there to discuss their viewpoint at the same time. Not in a debate format, but someone with another explanation of content.
The "other side" are too busy revising history and apostatizing.
I agree! He should do one live with Whitney Horning
@@ED-wiredor Jeremy Hoop
Agreed.
To Greg and Jacob, thank you for your discussion. I live in Canada and have been a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints since 1961.
I have watched both of you on TH-cam on different channels for a handful of years and came to realize that you both support the Gospel of Jesus Christ fully.
Knowing this allows me to watch you engaging with others who are not of the LDS faith or who are finding the Covenant Path to be challenging. I have had my own experiences and challenges. I don’t always enjoy debates and hearing alternate reasons as to how others claim I should live the Gospel. I’m not afraid to hear other opinions but I prefer to hear and learn more fully about Jesus Christ and His Covenant Path.
Today with this episode I realized that a discussion between two people whom I believe to be fully committed to the Covenant Path, is engaging and more enjoyable, allowing me to relax, listen and learn.
You spoke of many tenets of the Gospel and the results of choices allowing me to see the path choice to the Celestial Kingdom with a wife and family. What’s equally important is that I felt the peace of the Holy Ghost as I listened to you both.
How refreshing it was to know that I was being lead into truths and explanations that clarified areas of concern among members. Growing up I went to Sunday School, Seminary and Institutes of Religion so I have been fortunate to have very good teachers. A mission taught me more.
I hope the two of you will meet again. It is easier to connect with your points when I already know you are not trying to lead me astray or r trying to be heard above the masses. I have striven to know how the Holy Ghost speaks to me so knowing this, I received far more from your dual exchange rooted in truth. What I heard you say added to my base and knowledge of the Gospel, Church History, religious history and testimony. There were no lying familiar spirits along for the ride in your message.
Thank you again. What I thought would be easy to express sure has taken me a long time to express.
I understand both of you better and will continue to listen to your channels.
Enjoy Egypt! I love Egypt.
Thanks once again.
Joseph Smith said he did not practice poligamy. Do you believe him or not?
He said that publicly for the same reason you wouldn't tell a Nazi knocking on the door if you were hiding Jews during WWII. Grow up.
Look at the circumstances when he was speaking. His life was in constant danger from a murderous government and mobs. He was justified to deny that doctrine that was teaching privately. Just as Nephi was justified in killing Laban because his life would be in danger if he didn’t kill him. Once the saints were in a much safer place in the West they could openly practice the doctrine in 132.
@@MrRugbyrugbyrugbyGod never commands us to lie. Stop drinking the Kool-aid and start learning the truth. All you are doing is rehashing the story that liars told you. I believe Joseph Smith, the prophet of the restoration. You are evil speaking of the Lord's annointed when you throw him under the bus like you are doing with this comment.
I believe Joseph! 🤍
What if Joseph was telling the truth? We don't want to be false accusers, do we?
1 The ends of the earth shall inquire after thy name, and fools shall have thee in derision, and hell shall rage against thee; D&C 122
11 And they who do charge thee with transgression, their hope shall be blasted, and their prospects shall melt away as the hoar frost melteth before the burning rays of the rising sun;
13 Also because their hearts are corrupted, and the things which they are willing to bring upon others, and love to have others suffer, may come upon themselves to the very uttermost; D&c 121
I don't think we want to be on the wrong side here. I take Joseph's at his word. I don't believe what others said about him years later.
Let’s see……Everything Joseph actually wrote, primarily source, condemns polygamy. If anyone accuses him of lying they better be damed sure. Not me.
Where is all this? I've yet to find it, just people quoting "it"
@@BradKandyCroftFamily - There's several places where Joseph and Hyrum:
1) condemn polygamy as not of God and that the "one-man-one-woman" thing of then-D&C 101 is the teaching of God
2) That Joseph & Hyrum are not teaching anything else in private that is not in line with then-D&C 101
One of Joseph's public letters:
"We the undersigned members of the city council of Nauvoo... solemnly declare before God, angels, and men, to all people to whom this certificate may come that no such principle as polygamy, or spiritual wifery, has ever been taught, publicly or privately, by Joseph Smith, and that there is no doctrine or practice in this church which is contrary to the laws of the land or to good order and harmony."
- Joseph Smith in the Nauvoo Neighbor, June 19, 1844
In the Joseph Smith papers and Journal of discourses. You have to study on your own. If you believe Joseph lived polygamy you believe he also cheated on his wife and cavorted with a 16 year old teenager while lying to Emma in spite of the fact that he preached against it and excommunicated men who he found living it. If Joseph really did these things the church would be in dire trouble. Brigham bragged that he started it long before Joseph knew about it. The gospel is true despite Brigham Young thank goodness
Either a few people lied about practicing polygamy when it was most controversial, or an entire city and religion of people are lying that Joseph taught them plural marriage. I believe the latter. Just because Joseph was deceptive doesn't make him less of a prophet. He was literally killed for polygamy charges.
@@aliceduren6542😊
sounds like people who feel like they should leave the church and are just rationalizing to themselves on why that's a justified feeling.
We still practice Celestial Plural Marriage guys! It is eternal and our prophet is currently practicing. President Nelson is sealed to both. Living men can be sealed to another woman if his first wife dies but a living woman has to break her sealing with the dead husband if she wants to be sealed to another man.
He also urged the jab, he is behind in some areas. The LDS view of what a prophet is is also another false tradition we need to repent of if we are going to receive more light 💡
follow the prophet culture produces bad fruit
I’m not saying there aren’t prophets or that Nelson is the boogyman
@americathebeautiful9613 Yeah, prophets are so overrated! It's not like the scriptures show that it's important to follow them! My revelation trumps a prophet's revelation because God is speaking directly to me. So if I get the feeling I shouldn't get the jab then I'm gonna follow the Lord. If I feel like I'm supposed to have an affair with my neighbor I'm gonna follow the Lord. If I feel like murdering or stealing or coveting or anything .... I'm gonna follow the Lord because he speaks directly to me! You're also right that President Nelson is behind ... Like, is he not interested in the world and us worldly folk!?
rather convenient that the man and not the woman gets to be sealed to multiple partners?…prophets or not..the doctrine of plural marriage here in earth or upstairs is absolute B.S
@@dillfry1 If you could point out somewhere in the scriptures that says "follow the prophet", I'd be much obliged. The only one I'm aware of that we're urged to follow is Jesus. Can you find a prophet telling everyone "follow me"?
@dillfry1 God wants everyone to be a prophet. A prophets roll is to invite people to come unto Christ, and repent. Nothing more, nothing less. Don't be so eager to put your trust in anyone other than Christ. If a prophet teaches more than the doctrin of Christ (faith, repentance, baptism, gift of the Holy ghost) than you should be very skeptical.
Joseph and Emma are verified in primary sources to officially be Joseph Smith polygamy deniers. What seems to be the question here??
Excellent point.
What are the primary sources from Joseph? All that are ever presented are from other people years later. Also, if polygamy was to build up the number of saints, as Jacob in the Book of Mormon says is the only valid reason God would allow it, why did Joseph have zero children except through Emma?
@@1klakak he publicly stated he didn’t practice polygamy on multiple occasions. Should be able to find them with a simple source. The apologist reasoning, and the are probably right, is that he would get in trouble if it were public.
@@Sayheybrother8 I read too fast and didn't see that you said deniers.
@@1klakak I thought that’s what might of happened:) 🙏
My step father is 88. When he was younger, he had difficulty understanding polygamy and was teased about it as a kid. While on his mission in Sweden, he met a very old lady who had joined the church as a young teen when polygamy was in practice. He asked her if she ever had difficulty accepting polygamy. She said, “Nope! Not at all”. She then said, “Elder, now you listen to me. When the Lord gives a commandment He gives understanding with that commandment. When He takes the commandment away, He takes the understanding away”.
many women think that.... until they live it. Many polygamist women divorced because of the BAD FRUIT!
Which number wife was she?
That's exactly how it works!
I like her quote.
When had God taken a commandment away? Please don't use polygamy because I know it is an abomination always. Or Nephi slaying Labon. I'm just wondering if God has ever taken a commandment away. Can anyone think of an example?
Joseph was not a polygamist. The evidence is clear, it doesn't matter how many times you say Joseph was a polygamist, that does not create evidence that he was. We are clearly in a condemned state, Jesus Christ clearly named His church "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints." The answer is not to leave the church, but instead demand the church library be opened so we can read the hidden history and correct the interpolations of man. For someone who runs a channel called thoughtful faith, Jacob sure does follow human authority without thinking for himself. Greg, you are a smart man, please don't discount this idea and look into it for yourself. If we all just trusted authority blindly, we would be Catholics. Jacob's presentation is incredibly dishonest and misleading, I can't believe he even presented this. WILLIAM CLAYTON'S JOURNAL IS NOT CONTEMPORANEOUS.
I agree!!! I always loved and trusted Joseph SMith he was my hero before I heard all the bad stuff. This does make him the good guy that he always was!! It makes so much since if the "Devil" is involved and the prophecy to be love and hated from all nations.
Yes...the D&C stated that marriage was one man and one wife. That was removed in 1844.
@@GAILandROD I recommend every latter-day saint own a copy of the 1844 D&C. Every time you read something in the D&C that the holy spirit tells you it doesnt seem quite right, you can go to the 1844 version and realize it wasn’t in there. Joseph’s name was used many times after his death for the church to pass their agendas, abusing the people’s testimony of God’s true prophet.
@@GAILandRODdoctrine and covenants 42, lays out the commandments and that a man shall cleave unto his wife and none else.
Still researching the provenance of William Clayton's journal. So far, it seems to be as sketchy as an Etch-a-Sketch.
Lots of people don’t think JS practiced polygamy the way BY did, but they still believe President Nelson is a prophet. (New flash, prophet can and do make mistakes)
I wish someone with a platform would address all of times Joseph and Hyrum condemned and denied polygamy.
Thanks cwic media and Jacob for this great conversation!
I agree with most of what Jacob said - liked a lot of his analogies.
Gonna push back on the idea that plural marriage wasn’t instituted to raise up more children. IF YOU HAVE LIMITED NUMBER OF MEN, then the numbers are higher. Jacob compared birth rates between women in polygamous marriages vs. those in standard marriages. The comparison should be between what gets higher birth rates with limited men - pairing off or plural marriage? ESPECIALLY IF YOU HAVE 2x to 3x more women.
Jacob is correct that by only allowing plural marriage with only the most dedicated members, you did create a large number of children with fathers who all had solid testimonies of the truth. This is especially true after crossing the continent.
Supposedly Brigham didnt know half his kids’ names. How’s that for a loving and devoted father 🙄
Except there were more men than women in the height of Utah polygamy. Check census records.
Did Jacob just say "Joseph didn't lie"???? That's your whole argument, Jacob! JOSEPH IS A LIAR! If you believe Joseph practiced polygamy, you believe Joseph is a liar. Man up and say it.
Had this same thought like what? “I just trust Joseph” is the argument for the side against polygamy because he constantly condemned and denied it!
That's not true. Joseph practiced plural marriage, not polygamy. One is of Satan, the other of God.
@stephtimms
Wow! You could run for president.
Is this Kamala?
@@hhsisters5508 it’s more nuanced than that. Your guys issue is that you think about history in a too black and white lens.
Joseph and I are laughing so hard at y’all and Michelle-the-belle.
@@Chet-hv4po Are you an AI bot?
It’s real simple. Ask God if Russell M Nelson is the key holder. Religion is based on faith. How do we know Joseph even held the keys? Faith. I’m not the judge. If Joseph or Brigham screwed up they can answer to the Lord for it. As far as I am concerned, I just need to have my own revelation that President Nelson is the current prophet.
Joseph had the keys. Brigham had the keys. Neither of them screwed up. President Nelson holds the keys today.
I love your show Greg and all the people that you bring on your show that give us their knowledge on the gospel of the Church of Jesus christ. I am glad you have Jacob on the show today. The subject of plural marriage has been so hidden up, but I have had the privilege of learning this principle and its purpose for the last 40 years of my life.
Nothing is simple. Confirmation bias is real.
Honestly it is not that simple. I say that because there are many who are weak in their faith and want so badly for something to not be true. We have to first have faith in Christ and the Restoration. I love Elder Uchtdorf's talk about doubting your doubts. Satan is real and he can make you believe something that is not true. You have to have a broken heart and contrite spirit. You must have faith that God will answer your prayer just like Joseph Smith when he knelt in the Sacred Grove. Let us remember Satan (Lucifer) even attempted to stop Joseph from receiving the truth from God. We must have a discerning spirit to know what is from Satan and what is from God. I know for me I receive a spirit of peace and my mind is calm. If it is from Satan I feel anxious and frustrated.
@@confusedwhynot it’s so simple it’s hard. People like to muddy up the water. Faith is actually really simple but we smother it with doubts.
Joseph literally corrected the Bible to condemn David and Solomon for their polygamy. It’s in our current scriptures.
How do you reconcile Jesus confirming polygamists would be in heaven? Matthew 8:11
@@cameronreed1411Because I have the book of Genesis which say Abram (17) and Jacob (32) repented and each received a New Name upon being forgiven. Issac was never a polygamist.
Do you know what scriptures also condemn David and Solomon? Doctrine and Covenants 132. Do you know who both don't condemn? Neither condemn Abraham, Jacob, or Nathanial.
Uhh, so why does it say in D&C 132 that David did nothing wrong save in the case of Uriah and his wife?
@@DerekPayne1791 How do we know this repentence was referring to Polygamy?
What about Moses being a polygamist?
What about God giving Saul's wives into David's hands?
Joseph stated publicly and published letters, including in newspapers at the time, that he was not teaching polygamy in private.
This makes a mutually-exclusive situation.
a) Joseph lied in his public letter and was teaching polygamy privately
b) Joseph told the truth in his public letter and did not teach polygamy privately
There's much more on the topic, but that's just one that does not leave wiggle room.
Joseph had every incentive to hide the practice polygamy. He would've been killed much faster if he said he was an open polygamist.
@@aliceduren6542 This is absolutely false. If practicing polygamy would get you killed than the real polygamists would have halted doing so right after the Expositor exposed the practice and Joseph was killed. Instead Brigham took 11 wives right after Joseph's death before reaching the safety of Utah.. If polygamy was the real threat doing so would have been insane. And Joseph had plenty of threats on his life without openly practicing polygamy. He didn't deny any other truth simply to avoid persecution or death. Here is what his sons had to say about people like you who think he would lie to protect himself.
It is said that Joseph Smith, the martyr, received a revelation revealing the "celestial marriage" and instituting "plurality of wives." I have already examined the testimony of Joseph Smith, concerning the marriage ceremony; and he declares that he knew of no other system of marriage than the one quoted from the Book of Doctrine and Covenants [ 1835 Kirtland Edition, 101; 1844 Nauvoo Edition, 109; 1866 Liverpool Edition, 109]
But says one, "that was only a sham to blind the eyes of our enemies." Shame on the man, or set of men, who will thus wilfully charge the two best men of the nineteenth century, the two Prophets of the most high God, with publishing to the church and the public at large a lie, and signing their names to it.
"Oh! but it was done to save their lives." A very likely story, when those two men had faced death and the world for fourteen long years, preaching the word of God to a sin- cursed generation. No, no, it will not do, you must meet the truth with better weapons than that, if you expect to make much of a battle. Besides all that, Is it not written, that "He who seeketh to save his life shall lose it, and he who loseth his life for my sake shall find it," and did not they know this. Yes, a thousand times yes; it was their hope, their consolation in times of danger." (Alexander H. Smith)
*"To assert that Joseph Smith was afraid to promulgate that doctrine [polygamy], if the command to do so had come from God, is to charge him with a moral cowardice to which his whole life gives the lie. Nor does it charge him alone with cowardice, but brands his compeers with the same undeserved approbrium. The very fact that men are now found who dare to present and defend it, is proof positive that Joseph and Hyrum Smith would have dared to do the same thing had they been commanded so to do.
The danger to the lives of those men would have been no more imminent, nor any greater in the preaching of "Celestial Marriage," than it was in preaching the "Golden Bible" and the doctrine that Joseph Smith was a prophet blessed with di vine revelation. For the preaching of these tenets many lost their lives; Joseph and Hyrum Smith were repeatedly mobbed, were imprisoned and finally died, in the faith originally promulgated, but- if we may judge from their public records,- not believers in polygamy." (Joseph Smith III, Reply to Orson Pratt [tract], 4)
@@nostoppingit7243😊
@@nostoppingit7243😊
Hey So i noticed non of the quotes presented actually mention plural marriage. They all are about marriage and sealings. Except for the one coming from the expositer. but i couldnt read the fine print what does it actually quote from 132
Jacob says we aren’t condemned but we literally are, and have been since 1831 according to the D&C and Ezra T Benson in 1997, why aren’t we talking about this and doing anything about it?
Greg--love the channel. Your thoughts at the end captured what I was thinking. This issue isn't just about Joseph's image or investigating church history, like some of the anti-polygamy folks claim. This is about the temple and keys, which are absolutely fundamental to the restoration and the gospel. Without temples, what are we even doing? How can we believe the Book of Mormon is what it claims to be and reject the need for a temple?
Jacob Hanson's argument about Jacob 2 not being about having more babies does not completely make sense. A woman may have more babies in a monogamous marriage than in a polygamous one, but a righteous woman won't have ANY babies if there is not a man available to enter into a marriage with.
I was shocked when I found out that others in Gen X and millennials didn't know Joseph practiced polygamy. 😂 Apparently my seminary teacher red-pilled us on a lot of things that the general Church culture was trying to whitewash at the time. Including this. Not news. 😂
Hi Greg,
A sincere question here from one who does not engage in commenting. And one who is watching, listening and learning from many voices. None of which I am 100% in agreement with.
It is stated here something along the lines that perhaps Joseph did not know much about the sealing power with it still being in the early stages. And that Brigham came to understand it better. I have been thinking about this.
Why then did Brigham seal slaves to people? That does not align. I am not sure if he did know more.
Joseph on the other hand sealed men to him. That is not a part of current understandings of sealings.
Did neither of them understand it? Or perhaps did Joseph know some things about it that we do not understand? For instance the church came under condemnation which means we were given the lesser portion rather than the greater portion of the word. Are there some truths that are still being withheld about sealings until we are no longer under condemnation?
Do you have any thoughts on this?
As a note:
Jacob is interesting but not convincing to me. There are things being left out. And I see him representing what “polygamy deniers” say incorrectly in many cases according to things that I have listened to. I would like to see someone who is actually an agent for them speak for themselves. Jacob is not an authorized agent to present what they say or would say. This is concerning to me. I don’t even care for the term “debate”. I just want to honestly hear what others of varying opinions and beliefs have to say. Particularly if they retain membership in the church and desire to. The honest seekers trying to work through confusing and complicating things. I don’t know what I don’t know but in seeking I am seeing some of what I did not know. I am open to what God has to teach me through various thoughts and opinions and documents.
Jacob is so smug! He excludes the history that is brought out in The Joseph Smith papers. God will reveal what is true in the end.
God already has, in both Jacob 2, D&C 132, the patriarchs in the Old Testament, and every modern day prophet. Plural marriage is commanded at times by the Lord. Some people bot being able to emotionally deal with it doesn't change that fact.
Wrong. Read it with discernment. There is no way D&C 132 is from God. God doesn't talk that way in any other section. God didn't say these things any other place. It is not of God.@jaredshipp9207
So is Michelle. She is smug and condescending in her presentations
@jvyoung1258 you obviously haven't watched her. She says about 20 times a video that this is what the evidence says, here is her conclusion, but she may be wrong and please give her feedback. Jacob says none of these things. He is wildly wrong at almost every turn, but his hubris prevents him from seeing anything but his own view.
@hhsisters5508 I certainly have watched her. I said nothing about Jacob positive or negative. I have looked into what she uses as backup. I come to vastly different conclusions than she does. Does that make me stupid and or wrong, because I come to a different conclusion by studying the same things she does?
Please explain why in D&C 132 it states that Joseph inquired to understand why the Lord JUSTIFIED Abraham, Issac, Jacob, Moses, DAVID & SOLOMON to have many wives & CONCUBINES. Not all of these men practiced polygamy and Joseph would have known that, but he also would have know that in the Book of Mormon, Jacob clearly tells us that "David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was ABOMINABLE before me, saith the Lord." Please explain why Joseph (if he did practice polygamy), Brigham, and others broke this rule in D&C 132:61- "If any man espouse a virgin, and DESIRE to espouse another and the FIRST GIVE HER CONSENT, and if he espouse the second, and they are virgins, and have VOWED TO NO OTHER MAN, then is he justified..." If Joseph married women behind Emma's back, he was breaking this rule. Brigham took away a married woman from her husband and children. Please explain the marriage section that was originally in Doctrine & Covenants as section 101 which you can find in the Joseph Smith papers which says, "Inasmuch as this church of Christ has been reproached with the CRIME of FORNICATION, and POLYGAMY: we declare that we believe, that ONE MAN SHOULD HAVE ONE WIFE; and one woman but one husband, except in the case of DEATH. Please explain all the scripture verses that command that a man CLEAVE to his WIFE and they shall be ONE FLESH. Explain the Family A Proclamation to the World, and explain D&C 42:22-25. Explain Jacob 2:28. Explain Deut. 17:17. Explain 1 Cor. 7:2-3. Explain Matthew 5:28 which contradicts D&C 132:61. To DESIRE is to LUST. Also, President Hinckley said in a televised interview that he did not think polygamy was a true doctrine. I have studied this out for myself and know with all my heart and the confirmation of the Spirit of the Lord that polygamy is NOT OF GOD.
@@JoySoul73 well said!
Well then, you know. Congratulations
@@BuffaloChipp Joseph didn’t know from the scriptures whether Isaac was a polygamist but that doesn’t mean it wasn’t revealed to him. That’s that thing about being a revelator. As for Joseph breaking a rule, no keep reading the section to verse 65, she rejected the law and she became the transgresor. As for VOWED TO NO OTHER MAN, that’s referring to celestial marriage, not secular. Section 101 was not written by Joseph Smith. It was written by Oliver Cowdery and it was a political exigent so members would be approved for marriage licenses in the state. Monogamy is the rule, polygamy is the exception. I’m sorry you’re unable to integrate plural marriage into your belief structure but that’s a you problem.
I didn't do anything wrong. Stop following that heretical Michelle lady and focus on what matters.
@@jerry_phillips in the RLDS Joseph Smith translation of the Bible Joseph makes it clear polygamy was never commanded. Unless you've read that one don't say Joseph didn't know! Section 101 and 109 in the 1835 and 1844 editions of the D&C condem polygamy too.
I believe Joseph and Emma.
If you believe Emma, go join with the Church she started. They don't believe in eternal families or Section 132.
@@ejs7721 I believe Joseph and Emma, Hyrum, Joseph Smith III, Eliza R Snow before she was taught to and persuaded to lie, the original section 101 of the Doctrine and Covenants, the probability of Joseph Smith having no other offspring outside of Emma, The Temple Lot Trial judge, etc., etc., etc.
@@ejs7721 i believe zj
Jesus too. Matthew 19:4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, 5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? 6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
@@rolandsmith4394 do you believe Jesus?? Matthew 19:4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, 5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? 6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
I believe Joseph and Emma ... weren't idiots. They lied to the state to save lives.
Greg,
Please don’t entrench yourself in Jacob’s position without a very thorough and fair look at the other side of the issue. It will take more time than Jacob has put into it. He does not represent the relevant facts. He does not even seem to know the relevant facts. He certainly does not represent the anti-polygamy position fairly. It absolutely does not have to take the direction he claims any more than his personal faith realignment had to end with him as an Athiest. The standard Richard Bushman/Brian Hales narrative has helped lead many many thousands out of the church because they instinctively recognize that it is fundamentally immoral. Our position has done exactly the opposite for very many of us.
If you don’t have the time or interest to know the subject very thoroughly, you’re better to stay away from it.
Amen!
But now that you’ve let Jacob have the first word on the subject, you really ought to have a competent person from our side respond-and, sorry, but Jacob Isbell is not competent. Michelle Stone and Gwendolyn Wyne and Whitney Horning are all good choices, but I recommend Jeremy Hoop.
Amen!
Jacob,
If you had any intellectual integrity on this issue you would go on Michelle’s show and discuss your arguments with her at length. But you’re looking more and more like a squirly coward who cherry-picks his evidence as well as his debate opponents so he doesn’t have his argument too closely examined. Maybe man up and see if you can face someone who knows the subject.
The problem with the anti-polygamists is they start with the premise that polygamy is always against God's will. It is imposible to have a discussion on the possibility of Joseph Smith being a polygamist if by definition polygamy is universally evil and Joseph Smith practicing it would make him evil. It's like trying to have a discussion with a Catholic about the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon and that Catholic starting with the premise that the all Catholic teachings are true.
And Jacob just contradicted himself (8:53) "the fundamental narrative is false, Joseph Smith practiced plural marriage" "Joseph told the truth" If Joseph told the truth than he did NOT practice plural marriage because Joseph said he only had one wife. Joseph said there was only one form of marriage that was acceptable in the church and that was monogamy. Joseph excommunicated those practicing or preaching plural marriage. Joseph said the revelation that was read in the high council meeting was NOT what was reported in the Expositor or alleged by the polygamist gang. Pick your poison Jacob either Joseph lied or he didn't practice plural marriage (which he didn't). You lose credibility when you contradict yourself.
Thank you Jacob for this excellent report. Plural marriage is a saving ordinance for women. Any woman who has set her goal on being a Creator in the heavens and the eternities, needs a male counterpart. Very few men will be able to obtain this position like Abraham and Moses, Jesus Christ and our father Adam. This is why righteous men must take upon themselves this obligation.
I’ve watched some of Michelle Stone‘s videos and I do not feel the spirit in them. There was one in particular where she had her young son come on and do the introduction. Under her direction, he called Brigham Young all sorts of disrespectful names. It was very unattractive. I feel her channel leads many to apostasy whether that’s her intention or not. She claims not to take responsibility for that because she is just exposing the “truth“
One of Michelle's sons is sadly named Brigham. I am glad Michelle came to the truth and has helped others see the truth as well. It is tragic when a man is falsely accused of something he didn't do and something he fought, and died, trying to clear his name of.
your absolutely wrong and that crap you said about her son bagging brigham young?..
lighten up homie 🙄
Without doubt, Sister Stone has retrieved and strengthened multitudes of members who rejoice in her clear evidence that our founding prophet of the Lord's restoration, Joseph Smith, consistently spoke the truth that he never practiced polygamy and was always faithful and dedicated to his one dear partner, Emma.
Remember, Cheryl, it is the EMEMIES of the Lord's restored church who agree with people like Jacob Hansen, David Alexander, Brian Hales, etc.--and promote their very words as ammo to ATTACK the first "Mormon" prophet as unfaithful and callous to his wife and involved in multiple secret and scandalous affairs--and thereby attempt to weaken LDS members.
No enemies of the Lord's church encourage anyone to believe Joseph's Smith's denials of practicing polygamy.
But Michelle Stone does.
Cheryl, members who hear the false arguments of the 3 men above and others like them--as repeated by the enemies of the Lord's church--are RELIEVED to have a courageous, intelligent, and well-researched person like Michelle Stone refute these detractors of Joseph and demonstrate why we can believe his words.
I like how Gwendolyn Wyne approached the choices that Brigham made and focused on the choices themselves of having wives and concubines and not on Brigham himself. (in her TH-cam video with the title of "12 Abinadi and King Noah")
@@piapia-d9g Gwendolyn accuses the church of practicing spritiaul wifery, sharing wives... that is a terrible fasle accusation. Women like her and Michelle have the spirit of apostasy, as described in Rev. 12: 10.
Hyrum condemned polygamy and any man practiced it.. and he called it a damed fool’s doctrine.. historical evidence is speaking in more and more in favour of Joseph telling the truth about himself when he publicly and privately condemned polygamy and anyone practicing it.. I believe Joseph.. if you don’t.. believe him… that condemned its practice in his life time.. then what does that mean Joseph is in your narrative.. and Emma denied polygamy her entire life from start to finish of her life..
Where's the first person evidence of Hyrum condemning polygamy?
@@BradKandyCroftFamily you can read about it in church history and even in the churches history series called Saints. What is not mentioned a lot of the time is that Hyrum later confronts Joseph and asks him about the matter. Joseph convinces him of the truthfulness of plural marriage. Hyrum later tells Joseph he could try and persuade Emma of its truthfulness if he made a copy of 132 and he would present it to Emma. Joseph told Hyrum he didn’t know Emma like he did. Hyrum presented it to her and she took the copy and tore it to sheds. Now you know the rest of the story.
So it would be accurate to say that Hyrum fought against polygamy, but defended plural marriage when he found out its truthfulness.
And yet Jacob had on his graphic @20:38 and other times a green box for Hyrum. Hyrum railed really hard against polygamy. It's like in 25-45 years claiming that Greg doesn't like Cardio Miracle or something.
@@BradKandyCroftFamily "There have been reports about rebaptism and a multiplicity of wives, which are all lies... There is no such doctrine taught here; neither is there any such thing practiced here."
- Hyrum Smith, general conference, April 6, 1844
There's other times too. Hyrum railed on polygamy quite hard.
@@andrewdurfee3896
"I wish the Elders of Israel to understand it is lawful for a man to marry a wife, but it is unlawful to have more, and God has not commanded any of you to have more; and if any of you dare to presume to do any such things, it will spoil your fun, for you will never have the spirit to preach the Gospel. I despise a man who teaches a pack of stuff that will disgrace himself so; for a man to go into the world, and talk of this spiritual wife system he is as empty as an open sepulchre. If the coat suits any one, let him put it on. I would call the Devil my brother before such a man... I am serious in what I say and it has the power of God with it"
- Hyrum Smith, April 8th, 1844, General Conference, 3 months before he was killed.
Hyrum, according to the church, had multiple wives at this time, had tearfully accepted polygamy, and had promised never to speak against Joseph again. Here he is telling everyone at general conference, with "the power of God", that nobody had been commanded to take more than one wife. Either he was lying, or the church is wrong.
It's crazy how many Michelle Stone cronies are in this comment section.
YEAH!! She has quite the congregation of her own! So why attack us?! It’s WRONG and evil to do! Says we don’t need the temple?! Ok so don’t go Michelle! Take your ppl and GO cuz that’s what’s gonna happen to you all by saying we worship the prophets too! It’s WRONG to behave this way! You don’t have to like plural marriage but it DID happen and it did start with Joseph Smith! He didn’t want to do it! He was commanded to! MOVE ON now!
Our church is under condemnation for not adhering to the Book of Mormon. The Book of Mormon and JST of the bible Explicitly condemn Polygamy. We are told in D&C 84 "not only to say but to do". The Savior in 3 Nephi tells us GENTILES to "not only say but to do". That means our desire, our intent, our nature, and actions need to forsake the sin entirely. We haven't even forsaken polygamy entirely in practice but we still hold it dearly in our hearts. Joseph's own words (not he said she said crap) tell us that couples will only have one husband and one wife in the eternities. This is the law of the Lord according to the D&C before 132 confused everything. We stopped living it in open because we were threatened with destruction but yet our theology endorses it whole heatedly in the next life. By the mouth of two or three witnesses is the word of the Lord established. Where in scripture does it say that a man has multiple wives in the eternities other than the doctored 132? Back to destruction, WOW any time polygamy is practiced the people are threatened with destruction. That says something! Our Nation is on the brink of destruction and you guys can't seem to see the mote in your eyes to cast ou properly the beams in other's eyes. If D&C 84 says we need to repent, if the Savior in 3 Nephi tells us we need to repent, if Moroni tells us that we need to repent of our abominations... don't you think we need to consider what abominations are in the BoM so that we know what we need to repent of? Polygamy is certainly part of it!
Don't you guys know that people who are actually on the fence and legitimately struggling with the concept of polygamy KNOW that the same rhetoric that you are spewing out is false; and that these videos turn them away from the church and possibly even God as their creator because the Light of Christ that is in them tells them that polygamy is WRONG. Instead, if we stop resting the scriptures and actually repent in humility we might actually save people from leaving the church. I believe Joseph Smith too Jacob Hansen... the only difference is that I actually believe his own words, not what someone else said that he said. And Joseph Smith repeatedly fought and denied polygamy.
Can't you see that even the Family a Proclamation to the world says that Marriage is between "A" man and "A" Woman. If we don't repent of polygamy that document is just a joke to the rest of the world because they know that you believe in your heart that there is place for an exception. Then why not include their exception? You speak so heavily on LGBTQ and yet you ignore this one statement that is so vital to the doctrine of Marriage. Or to give you the benefit of the doubt are still in ignorance to the truth of polygamy. Hence why your efforts are still only reaching the people who are not LGBTQ. If you want to call people to repentance, repent yourself.
If you read more closely... the scriptures are not against proper plural marriage. The Lord is against the MISS USE and abuse of righteous plural marriage.
What is “proper plural marriage”? I don’t see any examples of it in the scriptures. Even in the cases Abraham and Israel there is sorrow and suffering. God did not give us any “proper” examples of this thing because it is not of Him.
@@allisonhansen364 Did God "give" King David many wives?? Yes... the scriptures say so. When did the Lord take David's wives away and "give" those wives to another man?? Well... he took David's wives away when the King started abusing the practice and lust after women who were not his wife and even murdered a man to do so.
When a man causes suffering in plural marriage, it is not proper polygamy.
@allisonhansen364 Sorrow and suffering can't be your yardstick. Sorrow and suffering is part of this world and everything within it.
@@godsoffspring4195 really because that interpretation is taking 1 verse (Jacob 2:30) out of context. The interpretation in context would tell you that the Lord will command the people to leave and raise up seed two by two. Read more closely. There is no such thing as proper plural marriage.
To believe Hyrum’s statement on Celestial Marriage has anything to do with Section 132, it to call him a liar and discount every other thing he taught in public against polygamy. Hyrum preached belligerently against those who practiced polygamy right up to his death. That is the record.
It is complete conjecture to conflate his speech on Celestial Marriage with Section 132. That is absolutely not the record. It takes supposition to come to that conclusion
Hyrum's widow Mary Fielding Smith was a determined woman of faith. She remarried into a polygamous marriage within 2 years of his martyrdom.
You're selectively cherrypicking and not looking at ALL the evidence.
@@DerekPayne1791 Most of the individuals in Joseph’s inner circle including Joseph denied and preached against polygamy yet practiced and preached authorized celestial plural marriage in private. That was one of their toughest needles to thread. They had to condemn John Bennett’s adulterous flavor of spiritual wifery without condemning authorized celestial plural marriage and while keeping plural marriage secret.
When Joseph finally wrote down 132, Hyrum offered to personally deliver it to Emma and convince her it was revelation.
I do believe he pushed back against it being given by way of commandment to all AND preached against the kind of harem polygamy that BY and others seem to be leaning towards. I just started to read a new book written about him, hopefully I can get a greater grasp. A quote used in this video that is one of the first references to polygamy being introduced refers to restoring "Levirate marriage" - taking on your deceased brothers spouse as a second. The way I understand it, this was the common permissible form of polygamy to the Hebrews among the common man. The idea of restoring this principle probably confused Joseph and caused him to seek greater understanding of marriage and polygamy.
As far as Joseph not having sexual relationships with those he was sealed to, idk if there is a way to prove it either way. All of the supposed descendants of his wives have been disproven genetically. My family was part of the genetic study to do exactly that (As a direct male descendant of Hyrum, I have the same Y chromosome as Joseph).
Soft Apostasy-Alma the Elder during the time of King Noah. He had the priesthood…. He took a righteous remnant out. Doesn’t mean that the priesthood was lost, just wasn’t active…..
I’m a faithful member but the church has discarded a bunch of teachings from Brigham Young-Blood Atonement, Adam God Theory, Blacks and the Priesthood…. POSSIBLY polygamy.
My actual problem is that a LARGE part of the church believe we HAVE TO practice polygamy for Christ to come again. It’s “CELESTIAL LAW”
That's dishonest and just a blanket excuse to ignore whatever you don't like. Brigham made conflicting statements on the Adam-God issue and, like blood Atonement, was never accepted as doctrine or even policy by the Church. Like plural marriage, the priesthood restriction began with Joseph, and was expanded by Brigham. Both these were doctrines or policies of The Church for a time. Your framing of these things is incorrect.
The one thing you're right about is that Celestial marriage is different than plural marriage and the latter is not required for exaltation. The eternal pattern is that created with Adam and Eve.
Ok, patriarchal marriage in section 132 is part of celestial law. The requirement is one wife, but it can allow for plural wives. This is essential doctrine for our salvation. Adam God theory or Blood atonement is not orthodox doctrine. They may be based on revelation, but they have become unrevealed to us. If they are true, they will be revealed by the prophet.
@@cdmbcgmblacks and the priesthood is an important doctrine for the exaltation of non-whites too. So where is the line?
@ED-wired Isrealites were denied the spirit of Elijah (blessings of the Melchizedek Priesthood) on Earth. Does that bar one from exaltation. Nope, you can get all in the next life. The point is to live worthy to what has been commanded, and all things will be added on in this life or the next.
@lexingtonconcord8751 In the scriptures, there are many generational curses. The priesthood ban in the church is a generational curse. Same with the Isrealites after Moses. Ham's (Son of Noah) offspring were cursed and couldn't hold the priesthood. Many times, these curses were done because an ancient prophet like Moses or Noah. The Savior restored the Melchizedek priesthood to the Isrealites and Revelation from God in 1978, allowing all worthy males to hold the priesthood. Does generational curses affect exaltation. No, it does not. One has to be obedient and righteous to what they have been commanded to live, and in the next life, they will be given the rest.
Wow! You are going to give credit to polygamy for the faithfulness of the church, what about the saving grace found in Christ! I have never been more sure of why I left the church!
Thank you for this discussion. I needed the thought process. The big picture is always good to think about. ❤️
D&C 132 does state that they were required to live polygamy. But the whole section is more about obedience to God’s commandments. Not just the law, but each and every commandment
Yeah, people overlook the fact that only a little over a quarter of the revelation is in regards to plural marriage.
It has been proven that Brigham wrote Section 132, not Joseph. There are over 20 factual errors in D&C 132. None of Joseph's revelations contained errors. Then why is this one suddenly chock full of errors? Because it did not come from Joseph, and it did not come from God.
@@hhsisters5508 So, you are claiming the church is lying about who the revelation came through? Excuse us for not believing you, a stranger, over all the prophets and apostles all throughout the history of the church. This video provides proof that it did come through Joseph.
get with the program sister!!
@hhsisters5508 Don't be ridiculous. It has not be "proven" Brigham wrote 132. What has been proven is the text of the revelation existed before Joseph's death which the dishonest history revisionists ignore.
I'm a decendant of a polygamist family that came to Canada. Years ago I spoke on mother's day and talked about my great great grandmother and I had so many come up after and tell me they were related to me. Still usually easy to find relatives.
Mic drop. Your ancestors were polygamists, and now you have a lot of relatives-polygamy must be good. Case closed!
@@Chet-hv4po😂 this is why we have to do our family history, to make sure we’re not related and inbreeding
So Greg, you've agreed to interview Michelle Stone. Shes dying to expand her followers so as to increase pressure on the Church to repent for its polygamy sin.
In another video, you said you aren't an expert on this topic. I hope you're planning on becoming one before meeting with her.
Michelle bad mouths the brethern all the time. She's demanding that the Church remove section 132 and denounce Brigham Young, but that is only just the beginning. Her latest claims are that the temple endowment was made up by Brigham Young to support his lust for multiple wives. She says the Church should stop building temples and use the money to feed the poor instead.
She claims that while the Book of Mormon condemns polygamy, it doesn't condemn gay marriage or transgenderism. She has twin daughters who came out as gay, with one who is transitioning to male. As I listened to her interview with her daughters regarding their LGBT journey, red flags flew up everywhere. They claim they didn't know what gay was until they were nine, and it grossed them out. They were tomboys and couldn't relate to their boy crazy female peers. They felt different. They went online looking for answers and began to " realize " they might be gay. They went into counseling and surprise the counselor, Julie Hanks, maybe? helped them "see " they had always been gay from the very beginning.
She has also claimed she has the support of her Bishop and Stake President regarding her mission the cleanse the Church from polygamy. And that she was called by God to do it. Her followers call her a prophetess.
Are you also aware she believes John Taylor shot and killed Joseph Smith in Cathage Jail. She 's clearly an apostate who says the only reason she stays in the Church is to save the Church as prompted to by God.
I know many people where I agree on some (few/many/etc) things with them and not agree on other people.
"Many"....well, I think that's more like about every person that I have ever had the pleasure of getting to know.
Michelle may not (or may) be close to the mark on so many of the other things you mentioned. But her take on the other topics are not the basis for the veracity of this topic. The topic stands or falls on its own merits and not on whether the person making the claim has a belief in other topics, whether those other topics be closely related or not.
In this video, this part begins at about @6:15 with Jacob giving us a logical fallacy (false dilemma or false dichotomy) of the two paths of thought (maybe Jacob was shortening for brevity of a video?) - and at about the @7:00 mark, Greg joins in and mentions Michelle and Michelle's extended thoughts of "putting down the prophet...putting down the temple"
While Greg stating that he recognizes a pattern of such...sure, no prob. But that part as a point of logic that disclaims Michelle's thoughts on the subject at hand is another logical fallacy as the subject at hand rises or falls on its own merits.
Speaking truth does not make you an apostate.
She is an apostate!! She will be held accountable by God! We don’t have to be comfortable with plural marriage cuz we aren’t to do it today but that doesn’t mean it wasn’t commanded for that time! For her to argue about BY or the temple, and say we prophet worship?? She is off her rocker! That is a horrible thing to say! We revere and respect the leaders but we worship JESUS CHRIST!
Jacob Hansen is so great! He's arguments are very well researched and factual. Thank you Jacob ❤
I'm not sure all of D&C 132 was written by Joseph Smith. I also find it interesting that all the people that said for sure Joseph practiced polygamy were polygamists themselves. I don't think there is one person that was not a polygamist that said Joseph practiced it.
I want to know who all of the bada$$ members were at the time of Brigham that went to Utah but didn’t practice it. I know there are some. I want to know if they stayed faithful and in the church. Seems like the polygamists get all the glory. Maybe because they were in power and could write the narrative?
@@ED-wired Polygamy wasn't practiced by many of the pioneers. The reason you see a lot of people descended from polygamists, is that it only takes 1 couple out of 32 couples that practice polygamy 6 generations back to be descended from a polygamists.
@@ED-wiredless than 40% of the Saints followed Brigham to Nauvoo. They didn't believe he was a prophet. And of those 40% of members who went to Utah, only about 25% practiced polygamy.
@@joshradson2649 Jacob gives examples of this exact thing in this video. Non Brighamites who claimed JS practiced it.
@@hhsisters5508can you site a source? I want to look it up myself. Thanks for the comment
Isn’t it somewhat fascinating that the polygamist offshoot ultimately grew to 17 million members and the largest non-polygamous offshoot has about 250 thousand. Common sense would say the more “cult-like” group would have gone into obscurity.
Honestly I would love to know how much of the posterity is still in the church. When I was at ByU 20 years ago, Dr. Holzapfel taught that >90% of General Authorities were from polygamist stalk.
@@ED-wired My ancestors on both parents' side were plural wives.
The Lamanite nation grew so large that they eventually destroyed the Nephite nation. Does that same logic apply there?
@@jerry_phillipsmy husband’s grandma is from a polygamist line. Only half of his cousins (if that) are still in the church. I have no pioneer/polygamist lines but almost all of my cousins are still faithful. Of course that is a small sample size
@@ED-wired Yeah I’m not attributing the growth of the church to polygamy, just noting the oddity of that fact that the larger offshoot embraced it.
Why not have Jeremy Hoop on to argue another opinion WITH PRIMARY SOURCES?
@CwicShow Greg, you believe that the Deuteronomists during the Second Temple period made significant revisions to the scriptures, resulting in the loss or distortion of certain revealed doctrines, such as priesthood ordinances, teachings about the nature of God, Heavenly Mother, and more explicit references to Christ. Yet, during this time, faithful Jews still received revelation through priesthood keys and prophetic guidance, even though not all of these changes were corrected by prophetic authority.
Why would it be incorrect to consider that a similar situation could happen again today?
Perhaps the fact that these distortions didn’t cause believers to commit sin. So then it makes me wonder about other instances like Levitical law which seems to condone slavery and doesn’t appear corrected for quite some time.
It appears that prophetic authority doesn’t override human agency or prevent the continuation of misguided interpretations, even if they are unintentional or even potentially harmful.
It doesn't change my mind, but it's a good point.
We should always ask the Lord "is it I?"
The Lord has the most difficultly revealing the truth to the self righteous...those who believe they can not be deceived... because they never ask.
Emma didn't just deny Joseph practiced polygamy later in life. She denied it while he was alive. Surely Jacob has read "The Voice of Innocence" Jacob's excuse doesn't fly as allegedly Emma destroyed the revelation and in order to do so would have had to know there was a revelation commanding Joseph to take more wives so she would have been lying if she denied he did. Thankfully we know Emma never had a reputation for lying. We also know that she not only said she was Joseph's only wife but she also stated that the first time she ever heard of any plural marriage revelation was when it was published in the SEER in 1853!!!! Unlike the deniers, the accusers have to engage in mental gymnastics in order to prove their case while trying to not call the Smith's liars.
Brigham introduced 132 in August 1852 general conference. Read his and Orson Pratts talks in Deseret News. So not Godly!
Why do we always forget the 3 Nephites and John the Beloved? They are still here and have authority directly from Christ. If the Brethren today should get off track it’s not line the authority will be lost. I sometimes wonder what they think of us for basically acting like they are just a myth
Jacob states that he believes Joseph was telling the truth. He clearly doesn’t as Joseph denied practicing or preaching polygamy dozens of times. He never once preached polygamy.
He did in private, as well as in D&C 132.
@@jaredshipp9207 D&C 132:42 makes certain rules. "42 If she be not in the new and everlasting covenant, and she be with another man, she has committed adultery." For starters, you cannot marry one that is already married or it is adultery. Joseph supposedly married other mens' wives. So either he wasn't following the rules, or he never practiced polygamy.
@@jaredshipp9207 there’s no evidence he taught it in private. The idea that he did runs contrary to his claim that he taught the strong doctrines in public: “I am bold to declare I have taught all the strong doctrines publicly, and always teach stronger doctrines in public than in private.” Do you believe him there? Was the doctrine of many wives and concubines a strong doctrine or not?
The provenance of section 132 is sketchy at best. A word analysis of it doesn’t match Smith’s prior revelations. It was a copy of a supposed copy. Not to mention the circular logic, contradictory statements, held within the text alongside the biblically inaccurate descriptions of the old patriarchs. It’s a complete mess. It creates a duplicitous God who seemingly changed from moment to moment. 132 doesn’t match the Book of Mormon, which thoroughly condemns polygamy, and the book Joseph Smith claimed held the fullness of the Gospel. Was he lying then?
@@HeyKathrynWoodthank you!
@@ED-wired you’re welcome! 👍
Jacob 2:30 is not saying what people think it’s saying. In Jacob 2:25 the Lord says he led Lehi and his family out of Jerusalem to raise up a “righteous branch from the fruit of the loins of Joseph.” The reference to the loins of Joseph obviously means raising up seed. The Lord then says he will not suffer the descendants of Lehi to do what they of old did and then gives the commandment of monogamy which is the Lords way of raising up a righteous branch, or in other words a righteous seed. Jacob 2:30 then says
“For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.” In this verse the Lord is just emphasizing what he said in previous verses and the commandment he gave in Jacob 2:27 and he is saying “if I don’t command you to be monogamous, then you will hearken unto the practice of many wives and concubines like those of old.” In this chapter the word “thing” or “things” is used 4 times and every other time in this chapter it is referencing the practice of many wives and concubines, I think it is referencing this in Jacob 2:30 as well. This interpretation fits much better in the context of what is said in this sermon and what the Lord says after Jacob 2:30 when he is saying he has seen the sorrow of his daughters because of their husbands and that there will be consequences for not obeying his commandments.
If you want to believe that an angel came and told Joseph Smith and other leaders who were as old as in their 70s to take teenage brides as young as 12 then there’s no hope for you. Also concubines- I can’t get a good definition for them that doesn’t sound like sex trafficking. Is that really what y’all think god is? I don’t, it comes down to prayer and personal revelation. It offends him and I’ve repented for thinking god was like that.
The Book of Mormon says both King David and King Solomon were in the wrong for practicing polygamy.
That is not what it says. They were wrong for how they did and where they took it.
@MoietyVR No, it says it was abominable. Jacob doesn't say anything about it being that they didn't do it "right": "Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord".
@@amypulley240You're showing you haven't done your own studied the The Old Testament, for yourself. The influencers your listening to and believe have cherry-picked the scriptures to support their anti polygamy narrative. They are ignorant themselves.
Abraham and Jacob were polygamists and the scriptures say they did no wrong in the sight of the Lord. Whatever you’re trying to argue here is a narrow view at best.
@@amypulley240 If it said "more than one wife which was abominable before me" I would a agree with you. Many prophets and patriarchs had multiples wife as did many among the common man. You see multiple stories in the bible referencing the practice of yibbum (marrying your deceased brothers widow even if you are already married). David and Solomon and I'm sure many in the early church took it to a place of lust which crossed a line.
There are passages of scripture in the Book of Mormon that give a strong argument that both the Nephites as well as the Jaredites practiced polygamy.
If you look for yourself you will find them.
Yes, wickedly practiced!
@@BridgeBuilder-x4cso Abraham was wicked? And Jacob? And all the ancient prophets?
And Brigham? And Heber Kimball? And the rest of the modern ones?
Either Joseph is a polygamist and a liar or he’s neither. Either you believe Joseph or you don’t. Can’t have it both ways.
Was Abraham a liar when he intentionally misled the Egyptians about Sarah so he wouldn't be killed and her given to Pharoah?
@@jaredshipp9207 false equivallancy. Besides do you think that hiding the full truth about something that was ordained of God (a monogamous marriage) is the same as lying to one's spouse and everyone else making him a hypocrite and a doer of "abominations" and "whoredoms" year after year?
@frankcastle5513 The plural marriage realists don't make Joseph that at all. That's simply the incorrect interpretation of things the plural marriage deniers walk away with due to their lack of understanding of both gospel doctrine and Church history.
@@jaredshipp9207 so "lying for the Lord" was never a thing? And "carefully worded denials" was also never a thing?
@@jaredshipp9207 not the same thing . Joseph Smith told no lies .
You're on the wrong side of this! Joseph Smith, Jr. was not a polygamist. Brigham Young was a polygamist.
Lay off the kool-aid
This dude is so hilarious. Ad hominem all over the place. Ad hominem is not a logical argument that works for me. Have fun thinking you look good with an episode like this! You are presenting no winning facts and no logical winning arguments. You're also doing appeal to authority and appeal
to fear. Authority= what the church teaches. Appeal to fear= fear of being an apostate, fear of losing membership on the church, and fear of losing a temple recommend
The subject of Brigham Young is becoming much like that of the Proclamation on the Family. Once I know a member's view on either, I immediately have a good idea of their understanding of gospel doctrine, Church history, and overall spiritual maturity.
Yep 👍
Not true at all
Any pridein your statement?
Oh yeah, so many of us just "can't handle" [polygamy] with the "spiritual maturity" of people like David, Solomon, King Noah, & the Nephites condemned by Jacob.
And when we fully mature spiritually, I guess, we can scoot pass the likes of such "spiritually immature" people like Jacob (2-3), Adam, Lehi, Nephi, Alma, Mormon, Emma, and Joseph (who ALWAYS denied it).
And how about all those spiritually immature and fragile Nephite wives and daughters, of whom Jacob writes regarding their husband's polygamous affairs:
"For behold, I, the Lord, have seen the sorrow, and heard the mourning of the daughters of my people ... because of the wickedness of their [polygamous] husbands.... Ye have broken the hearts of your tender wives, and lost the confidence of your children .... and the sobbings of their hearts ascend up to God against you [and] many hearts died, pierced with deep wounds."
I guess they just need to attend one of JaredShipp's spiritual maturity seminars.
And when we become more "spiritually mature," we can join others in CONDEMNING MONOGAMY as a tool of Satan and idolize POLYGAMY as the BEDROCK foundation of all other Gospel Principles--which is exactly where Brigham Young, et al, "matured" to.
I think Isaiah might have warned us about this kind of "spiritual maturity": "and they shall call good evil, and evil good."
@@jonterry9843^^^^^^^^^ right after you threw a temper tantrum in the comments section proving his point in real tim.
Greg I'm curious as to how much research you have done on the subject? And for that matter how much research has Jacob done? I have been researching this topic for over a decade and the historical evidence, if you look at ALL of it, proves Joseph was not the author of nor did he practice polygamy.
You can discover the truth without going into apostasy and putting down the prophet and temple.
So JS practiced polygamy but then spoke publicly against it… so he’s a liar?!?! Jacob 2 speaks about polygamy clearly… so JS translated the BoM and then went against Jacob 2!?!? So then why did Emma not follow Brigham?!?!? Where are Joseph’s offsprings? That’s right Jesus can have his apostles betray him but our church is perfect and that can’t happen to us? The mind acrobatics is amazing!!!
I call this movement and awakening not a soft apostasy…
That's the kind of false question Jacob addressed in the video. If you were hiding Jews during WWII and Nazis knocked on your door looking for them, what would you do? Say you haven't seen any or turn them over to the Nazis? This is akin to the situation Joseph was in. It's not rocket science.
@@Topher2024Why is this "awakening" taking people out of the Church and away from priesthood keys?
@@jaredshipp9207Poor analogy.
@@poohandtigger It's a very appropriate analogy. The issue of plural marriage was a major reason Joseph ended up being killed. He had very good reason to keep it secret.
My own ancestor was married to Joseph Smith as a plural wife... she and her sister have never denied those marriages, and Emma was aware of them. (The Partridge sisters) It always boggles the mind when people deny it occurred. Whether or not any or some of these were consumated is not known.
Then they failed
@@katherineshiver9428
?
Did Joseph father their children?
@@ED-wired No other children were fathered except with his first wife, Emma Hale Smith.
@@katherineshiver9428 Then WHO failed?
Levirate marriage is not polygamy and Franklin Richards who wrote that entry was not in that meeting. Levirate marriage is addressed twice in the Bible, and neither case ends up in a polygamous union.
According to AI: Levirate marriage is a custom or law that requires a widow to marry her deceased husband's brother. The term comes from the Latin word levir, which means "husband's brother".
Most people couldn’t have done what Brigham Young did. He not only kept the church together under very difficult circumstances he grew it while it was in a very isolated area. The polygamy later brought the Edmunds Tucker Act and the US Marshall’s. Wilford Woodruff issued the Manifesto. Polygamy officially ended. It ended right when the modern world engulfed Utah and it was time for the church to expand into it. Without Brigham there would be nothing to expand. You would have a few Joseph Smith based church’s back east. Some are still there with a few thousand members but not really filling the world like Brigham’s church.
Brigham s church?
@@safrew1 The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saint’s. The Church Brigham Young took to the Great Basin and expanded.
This may be the best explanation for the madness of polygamy. However we will never know how history would have turned out had the Saints been humble enough to build Zion with Joseph….
@@ED-wired You never know. Not our place to judge. The bottom line is is your testimony needs to be spiritual. Trying to intellectually find the truth is messy. All it does is make people argue because we have our own opinions. A Jewish friend of mine jokes and says have seven Jews get seven opinions. I laughed and said it’s no different in my church.
BY did a number of impressive things, to be fair. But I don't know that it's accurate to say he "kept the church together." He led one fragment of at least several. And yes, the fragment he led has grown into the largest of the fragments. But I don't think you could rightly say that he "kept the church together" if "church" refers to the one restored through Joseph. And of course, those of us within the LDS church have a brighamite-centric perception that the church that we know is one and the same as that existed at the time of Joseph's martyrdom. But that's really a matter of perception and subject to debate.
And by their fruits ye shall know them. The fruits of the Gospel are wonderful. The fruits of polygamy are still hanging around. It's awful. It's not too hard to see that Satan tried to corrupt the church immediately with polygamy. Infidelity is the emotional reaction. Sex control and power over others is the fruits. Let's just repent and stay the course correction. The Lord sent the US Government to ensure the course correction took place. I don't have any issues with church history. I'm a card carrying member. It seems reasonable to see polygamy was wrong and the church is true today as it was then.
I follow this train of logic as well.
Very well said.
Case closed. Path Clear.
The wonderful fruits of the Gospel are also due to obedience to the law of plural marriage when God required it of the early saints, as was pointed out in this video. Plural marriage is opposite of polygamy, and the fruits are the opposite of each other. Polygamy is of man but plural marriage is of God.
@@stephtimms1776 I’m curious, has there always been a distinction in the words / definitions. ?
@plummer50000 The faulty conclusion you've come to about plural marriage shows you're NOT staying the course. It's the history revisionists like Michelle Stone and others who need to repent. This issue is going to sift a lot of tares out of the Church.
You can’t use the books by Brian Hales as a source of evidence or facts when over and over it has been shown that he purposely failed to include information that may have shown an alternate view
What if we viewed polygamy as more of a transgression-an attempt by the adversary to derail God’s plan? Yet, God, being the ultimate strategist, allowed the ostracism and isolation of the early Latter-day Saints because of polygamy as a way to preserve the doctrines, truths, and people of the Restoration. What the adversary intended to use to undermine and corrupt the Restoration, God turned into a means of protection. It’s an example of God being a master weaver, working through human agency. Though the tapestry may look chaotic and messy from our limited perspective, from His view, it’s part of a greater divine design. It worked with the founding of the Israel and the Abraham of covenant, despite Sarai and Rachel causing some problems. Not sure this undermines prophetic authority any more than the Old Testament already demonstrates.
Note: not sure I even believe this fully, but it’s perhaps a working model until further light and knowledge is provided.
The inability of some to understand and accept Joseph taught and practiced plural marriage, and that Brigham and other prophets were justified in continuing to do so until the Lord commanded otherwise, sifted a lot of tares out of the Church at the time. And its doing so again.
Amen. So true
@@jaredshipp9207 watching this happen, makes me wonder if this isn’t pretty much like the battle we fought in heaven. All of heavenly father‘s children knew that if they refused to accept his plan, they would be cast out and they would lose their first estate. I believe this must have been where Lucifer convinced them that they didn’t have to worry about that because he would rise up and set his throne above the father. So today we have people that have set their teeth on fighting one way, or the other, to the point that if their bishops inform them, that their continuation of preaching this could cost them their membership in the church, they feel that’s OK being kicked out of the membership of the church because this is not what really matters after all, it is their membership in the kingdom of God and they’re standing before the Lord on Judgment day. there is some truth to that. But on the other hand, being kicked out of the church, leaves a Family, unable to fulfill the promises they made, when they raised their arm to the square, saying that they would follow their leaders in the church. I think this is a time when people need to swallow their pride and say, it is not life and death, threatening as to which side is correct, but the most important thing is that we move forward today, looking at the positive and keeping ourselves on the covenant path. I fear that some, are so full of determination, that they will allow this issue to drive them literally out of the church and also
kingdom.
Joseph and hyrum denied practicing it, they condemned it. Excommunicated those who they found out were practicing it. They were killed before they could expose the rest
I'll be a "tare" then. I stand with what Joseph Smith actually said about marriage. He said polygamy was a crime. D&C 101 1835 & 1844 edition... which was the law of the church by common consent until 8 years after he died.
I'll risk it to stand with Joseph.
@L55431 That's just it. The revisionistscare not standing with him. Its why so many of them are apostatizing.
Inside the church I can see the concern about polygamy even if it hasn’t ever been an issue I have had. Outside the church I can’t. In today’s world polygamy takes the form of hookup culture where you sleep with anyone and everyone. It also takes the form of open marriages where you are married but if you want to sleep with someone else that’s fine.
It pretty funny how it’s swapped right??! Prior generations inside the church had no problem with polygamy and outside the church was a huge issue with it; today that was swapped positions 😂😂😂
@@brainhunter1000 Whether it’s polygamy or hook up culture, if it’s breaking gods law then it’s wrong.
Well said! I don’t understand why people go down this rabbit hole of denying plural marriage.
Not denying it Happened, denying some of the continued consequences of it that are not good for the church-missionary work, widows not given a chance to remarry or even be sealed to a spouse in this life, members believing it is required for exaltation or before the 2nd coming.
Compare it to the harm of not letting blacks hold the priesthood. There are plenty of arguments for and against it, but Joseph never implemented it…..
The only reason people go down the rabbit hole is because Joseph Smith denied living polygamy. How could you dare blame this on the members of the church who now have a concern about the validity of testimonies shared for the last 100+ years. The fundamental issue at hand is the profit of the church denied living. Something that now members of the church are testifying he lived.
@@ED-wired We have plenty of current beliefs that hinder missionary work, aside from a practice of polygamy that while divinely inspired, ended 134 years ago.
Some of them are:
1) We are male or female, only two genders/sex exist, and the celestial order set forth with Adam and Eve (male/female procreative marriage contracts with god) will be the only recognized acts of obedience dealing with the subject.
2) Modern Revelation
3) Agency
4) Word of Wisdom
5) New scripture
6) Obeying the commandments not just knowing what they are
I could go on. The church is in God’s hands, His anointed will lead it where He needs it to go in order to bring His true disciples unto Him, like has always been the case.
Do the research
Probably because Joseph, Hyrum, Emma, Lucy Mack, Samuel and many others denied it.
We are told they lied for the Lord. So how do I know when the prophet is telling me the Truth?
Labeling people "polygamy deniers" is not good, Jacob. It's a tactic that minimizes a message by minimizing the messenger. Whether you know it or not, it is unfortunately an effective tool for alternative messages that cannot stand on their own. It's the same tactic critics of the Restoration use when they realize their own position is weak.
Love this episode. Great and articulate explanation of a difficult topic in the church. Church history was messy and beautiful at the same time. For me, I choose to see our past and current leaders in a positive light. It is so easy to do otherwise and destroy the trust and beauty of being led by inspired but fallible leaders. It becomes a slippery slope so easily once I start looking for too much negative things in the restored gospel of Jesus Christ.
The topic of plural marriage troubled me for a time when I first read sect 132. I pondered it and took it to the Lord. I received an answer sufficient to my understanding, albieit limited, but I graciously accepted the answer and I won’t share that here what that was because among the comments is demonstrated a lot of reliance on the arm of flesh for answers I am not the prophet I don’t deny that sources exist going one way or another, however, I see people not turning to the ultimate source truth and because of that they wouldn’t want to hear my understanding of what plural marriage is or is not and it’s an understanding that cannot be understood in our “broken language” but only by the Spirit of God.
May this be a very sober lesson to us to make sure to document stuff because we may be loosing members over stuff like this. It’s very important to document. It’s unfortunate that this was done in secret so that things don’t appear to documented like we have on other things.
Given the circumstances of the day with enemies constantly trying to find faults with the church and attacking it, documenting everything in those days had risks as well. Same circumstances with the First Vision. Joseph tells some people early one about seeing God. Joseph gets very negative reactions so he probably was guarded on who he spoke of it to. So we don't know have any documented evidence of the First Vision prior to 1832 BUT there is a reference by an individual (can't remember his name right now) in 1829 who said that Joseph claimed he saw God. So the information was being being transmitted orally. Joseph was having enough problems in the 1820s so having documented evidence of the First Vision floating around in those days probably would cause more problems for him.
We can start with all of the documents that Joseph, Hyrum, and Emma produced and published in their lifetime. Then try to square those with everything that was claimed after they were no longer alive to defend themselves
According to the Bible, Jesus made a no-exception rule that remarriage while a spouse is living is adultery. This was embraced by all Christians up until about 100 years ago. Even Dallin Oaks admitted this is “the ideal”, but claims that it is more or less not expected to be lived up to at the present time. I’m more interested in learning about this problematic issue than the current blah blah about polygamy (which I also believe to be unscriptural).
The problem with the bla bla bla polygamy crap is that there are members who believe we will legit be practicing it again before Jesus comes. That’s kinda big deal if you’re not really into your husband banging other women in the name of god
I would like the guest to explain more whats behind sec 132. Credi le people havee pointed out how the language style is different. Suggesting someone else wrote it. My sister showed me where a document in the Joseph Smith papers appears to disprove plural marriage. And why is Brian Hales supposedly so credible? Hes an anesthesiologist.
Because he's done more study on it than just about anyone. And every proper since the Restoration has said the same thing in regards to how plural marriage was revealed. The apostates simply don't believe it, neither then or now. It's history repeating itself with more tares being sifted out.
Not only is it clear from comparing D&C 132 to Joseph's other revelations that it sounds nothing like him but Joseph was a student of the Bible who also did a translation of and made corrections to the Bible. He would not have been so foolish as to list Isaac as a polygamist in D&C 132. He also translated the BOM and would not have been foolish enough to contradict Jacob 2 regarding David and Solomon. If all that isn't enough a writing analysis was done on D&C 132 and concluded that it did not come from Joseph but more likely Brigham, who it does sound more like.
Not only is Brian an anesthesiologist but he also has a family member who is currently practicing polygamy. He also said in an interview that it would be scary if we didn't have any contemporaneous evidence regarding Joseph practicing polygamy. Then went on to say that thankfully we have the accounts of John C. Bennett and William Law. i honestly don't know how anyone can take someone who would pretend that those two men have any credibility whatsoever seriously.
@@nostoppingit7243 All the historians in the Church, as well as the Brethren themselves, say plural marriage started with Joseph. So this "Brian is just an anesthesiologist" isn't going to work.
@@jaredshipp9207 Interesting because being an anesthesiologist was not the only issue about Brian that I brought out. Not only is Brian an anesthesiologist but he also has a family member who is currently practicing polygamy. He also said in an interview that it would be scary if we didn't have any contemporaneous evidence regarding Joseph practicing polygamy. Then went on to say that thankfully we have the accounts of John C. Bennett and William Law. i honestly don't know how anyone can take someone who would pretend that those two men have any credibility whatsoever seriously.
He also admitted, as almost every historian has, that the evidence is lacking, ambiguous and problematic.
@nostoppingit7243 First, you're assuming that because he has someone in his family who's involved in polygamy, his objectivity must somehow be compromised. And again, you ignore all the historians, in and out of the Church, who are convinced plural marriage began with Joseph. Not to mention the Church itself.
Second, for the sake of argument, even if Joseph didn't practice plural marriage, or practiced it differently than Brigham and others did later on, this should be no problem for a believing Latter-day Saint since we believe in prophetic succession and continuing revelation.
The fact some members still do have a problem is proof positive it's not really about what Joseph did or didn't do for them. They make a big show about "believing Joseph" so they can feign loyalty to the Restoration but the only things they are really adhering to is their inability to emotionally handle the issue, accept the historical record, and actually understand the scriptures.
Thank you for this topic Greg. I find it interesting that people are so anti polygamy but yet having five “baby-mamas” is okay. At least polygamist take care of their families. I get that this is a trial of faith for some, but I also think it is ridiculous that people now days are judging people who lived long ago. Just my thoughts we cannot change the past but we don’t have to repeat it.