Personally I find the Seanchan really scary. They give me the creeps every time they show up. Even without the a`dam they are a bunch of fanatic slavers with scary monsters. When you factor in the a`dam the creepiness is overwhelming. For me, they are the number one on the "villains you love to hate"-list. Apart from that I agree with your list whole-heartedly. Glad you came around with Lanfear, I absolutely love her, problems and all. These lists are really great, you show us how you think and obey your own rules, that shows integrity. Absolutely love it.
The a'dam usage and the way they treat damane as pets as always been scary and revolting for me. I don't know why but every time they appear in the book, I just had a tough time getting through it. I was always really angry at them. For me it just goes to show us how good these books are.
Lanfear wasn’t very scary to me reading the books but in real life a character like her would be off the charts creepy. She is basically an obsessive stalker who will not only boil your bunny but anyone who looks twice at you. Her arrogance in thinking she could win back her old lover was the only thing that kept her going salt the earth apocalyptic. She wasn’t building an empire and stacking power on her side she had vague personal goals which when thwarted meant she was unpredictable and highly unstable. This should come off much better on screen.
The Gholam really deserves a place on this list. It was a serious threat that was extremely scary and nobody really knew how to stop it, it could kill channelers and break into just about anywhere. It may lack much motivation being just a shadowspawn but for much of Mat's arc, it was the most threatening entity to his life.
Meesa Jar-Jar al'Binks. Meesa thatcher's apprentice caught up in crazy events. Meesa wish me understand womans as well as friends Rand, Mat, and Perrin.
Meesa no like Tairen tabac as good as Two Rivers tabac. Meesa Two Rivers bow can make yousa people die from way over theres! Meesa always wondering if friend Rand is already insane, but I knoes he been through lots and only meesa never change.
As you were talking about Elaida, I had a thought. She has similar personality traits to many of the Forsaken before they became Forsaken. One thing that always kind of bugged me is that there's really only one new Forsaken when the Last Battle actually occurs. Elaida's strong enough in the power, a limiting factor that I believe otherwise would have seen Alviarin join their number. (As a thought for the show) How about, if after getting captured by the Seanchan, she have another foretelling as a damane and then, as she is wont to do, takes the wrong lesson from it. She discovers her sul'dam is also a Darkfriend. She commits to the Dark One, and flees Seanchan with a sizable contingent of Darkfriend sul'dams (it's a profession that feels like it should be lousy with darkfriends), goes full tilt evil, and ends up as a Forsaken as well?
I will always favor your lore videos over news. These will stand the test of time, and I hope they will be viewed by many of the future tv show fans who desire deeper understanding of the WoT series. This particular list drives home just how complex and deep this story is that there are so many compelling antagonists. In fact there are many who did not make the top 10.
I believe that Mordeth tried to combine with Paden Fain, and couldn't due to Paden Fain's link with the Shadow. This probably drove him even more insane, and he just evolved from that mish mash of the evil that destroyed Shadar Logoth. So he did have an arc of sorts almost as a separate character.
I'm going to have to do a list and assign scores using your system- that might change what I'm about to say... but I feel like Slayer would have a high enough score to make it on this list. I realize his arc is focused mainly on Perrin, but still! Also, Mazrim Taim has a pretty big impact on the series at the end - building up the black tower and killing one of the main characters.
I think you have Elaida’s Power score too high. She is very often manipulated or undermined by Alviarin and is overthrown by a girl leading a band of rebels, and gets crushed in her own tower by a raiding party of enemies she should’ve known were coming.
Lanfear would be higher for me. She's the one that drilled the Bore open in the first place, straight through the Pattern. Without her, no story at all.
Wut no Demandred? He united all of Shara and was almost being the reason the shadow one the last battle. I feel like he had more of an impact on the story on a macro level than any of the forsaken besides Moridin. Maybe you rate him so low because he's only really in the last book. Still, I think he's at least top 10. Also, shout out to Slayer.
I don't think Graendal was ever truly a hedonist. I think she cultivated that reputation, as well as her heavy use of Compulsion, as a smokescreen, nothing more. She wanted everyone to underestimate her and find her somewhat ridiculous. I think her 'pets' were just decor for her, I don't think she actually cared about the pleasures of the flesh. I think in her heart of hearts, she always remained the monk-like person she was before. I think her fall to the Shadow was more about her disappointment in humanity than any selfish motive. Don't forget, she was a psychologist, and she wasn't inherently evil or cruel like Semirhage. But dealing with people and their failings probably took a toll on Graendal, and at some point her impossibly high standards for humanity had to give way somehow. I think this is why she adopted a "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em" mindset. And of course, being who she is, she realized that if you do join 'em, you need to have a strategy for coming out on top. Graendal successfully lulled all her fellow Forsaken into a false sense of security, and she was the instrument of the downfall of more than one of them. I hope the show really shows us Graendal's journey, because it's so different from Semirhage's "hey I'm just really evil" and Lanfear's "my boyfriend is cheating on me!!!11!!!". She could easily become a fan favorite, I think.
I 50% agree. I think she did cultivate that reputation intentionally and wasn’t obsessed with her pets like the other Forsaken thought. But I do think she enjoyed them and probably had cruel motives for being a psychologist.
@@rossj4755 I think it's much more interesting if she started out as a starry-eyed idealist who slowly realizes how utterly unscrupulous and selfish the average person is, and loses all respect for humanity as a result. I don't like the 'born bad' character arc, as though our character flaws are these immutable things that just appear because of our innate nature. As much as I love Semirhage, she's kind of one-note, because she does everything For The Evulz™. Lanfear is just a jealous brat. But Graendal could have started out as the hero of another tale, and because of her experience with psychology, I can easily see a crushing disillusionment taking over and causing her to completely change her priorities. The reason I don't think Graendal ever really was a hedonist is because I think she created 'Graendal' as a character to portray, I don't think she ever was that person at all. She designed an identity that was the polar opposite of her own, so that if anyone believed any part of the persona, Graendal had the upper hand with them. Graendal never wanted anyone to know any true thing about herself, so I think everything that was believed by others was 100% manufactured by Graendal for that very purpose.
Padan Fain was always under apreciated as a villain I think, he was at the end the other part of Evil. He was almost unstopable and there was only one who could kill him and it was not Rand. I mean, as Saidin and Saidar are halves of the One Power; Shaitan and Shaisam were the same for the True Power. The same as Lanfear, her plan actually worked, she was at the best position to win the game at the end; just the love Perrin felt for Faile avoided her the ultimate goal to rule alone.
Demandred in the Age of Legends was always second fiddle to Lews Therin. It only made sense that he stay away until he's ready to take him down. Having a final shot at killing Lews Therin (or rather Rand in this era,) he'd want to be extremely well-prepared, coming in with a massive army and a top-3 sa'angreal. Of course, this keeps him from being all that fleshed-out in the books. Ishamael/Moridin may have understood the Dark One the best, but I feel that Graendal was the most loyal to the cause. She was one of the most willing to work with the other Forsaken, but would also take out any traitors. Her niche was also highly effective in the battles, nearly swinging them without much assistance from the other Forsaken. Lanfear was a bit of a missed opportunity. She was an effective 'seductive darkness' that could have been even greater had she learned some of the 'tricks' some girls develop before going to the White Tower, or perhaps chosen her target better. Mat in particular could perhaps have been swayed in the Aiel Waste. Compulsion was too much a blunt hammer for her, but she didn't really combine her powers of persuasion with saidar particularly well.
White cloaks will make a pretty compelling group (along with the prophet and the White Tower in general) in the TV series because to me they reflect a lot of what is going on in the present day world with their dogmatism and power for the sake of power.
You didn't mention the seanchan's primary motivation. To retake the ancestral lands of Artur hawkwing. The control of channelers is necessary, but they are just tools. The seanchan don't give the practice a second thought. They came to reclaim what is already theirs by right. That is honestly their only motivation. Still loved the video though.
I love your videos, I've been bingeing on this channel and Daniel Greene's WoT videos and it's inspired me to read the books again for the 4th time. Started eye of the world last night and I was physically thrilled while reading the first chapter just knowing how everything unfolds but also excited to go through the story all over again. It's been around 3 years since I read them, the story has always stuck with me it's amazing. Thanks again and cheers for the great content👍
Pretty spot on, i usually dont agree with your lists. With disagreement aside, i enjoy your content. I do disagree with your impact score for Padan Fain. Honestly, aside from Morridin, id say he had the single largest impact. He did disappear rather early on, but without him there would be no great hunt, no battle of the two rivers, no manupulation of Pedron Niall, no cleansing. Rand would have probably just blown up the Two Rivers. He deserves a 10/10 on impact. I also would have put Slayer in at rhe number 10 slot as hes one of the most compelling villains in the series, im assuming his impact was what had bumped him though.
You inspired me to do my own list: 1 - Padan Fain / Ordeith / Jeraal Mordeth / Shaisam - Starting as bitter darkfriend and becoming so much more. By the end of the series he was capable of killing anything including Jumara, Myrrdraal and trollocs. In fact, his mist turned trollocs into zombie-like slaves. Even the feared Machin Shin of the Ways, with their screaming voices greeted him as a friend and feared him, and even flead from him. He escaped from Slayer with ease, wounded Rand nearly killing him, and eventually becoming so deadly he could kill with a touch. 2 - lanfear - Loved to be hated by fans, complex, believable. 3 - Ishameal/Moridin - Pulling the strings, complex and independent of the darkones linear goals. 4 - Shadowspawn - Eyeless, Trollocs, Draghkar, Darkhounds, Gray Man, Gholam, and Jumara. 5 - the black aja / darkfriends - Feared by all the characters in the series and involved in all the best plot lines. 6 - The Chosen - hands of the dark ones; as a group they manipulate world events and these powerful channelers are feared by all. Although they have compelling stories, most of them are viewed with a single umbrella lumping Balthamel, aginor, asmodean, be'lal, rahvin, sammael, semirhage, mesaana, graendal. 7 - The Finn (Aelfinn and Eelfinn) - While it remains unclear for much of the story if these are evil or goodguys, it can be argued that their treaties and agreements leave those who bargain with them in a dangerous position. They wear clothing fashioned from human skin and attempt to kill the main characters on more than one occasion. 8 - The Aiel - We often forget by the end of the series that the Aiel as a group hate the other kingdoms and having been offended by the cutting down of a tree, marched over the lands killing many. Infact throughout the series the Aiel that end up siding with Rand are pursued by their own kind in larger numbers. 9 - Bubbles of evil - "evil power" itself independent of the locked away dark one which attaches to the threads of the wheel. Throughout the series creates some significant acts. It causes axes to attack characters on their own accord, it causes entire towns to kill each other in a bloodbath at night only to resurrect them at dawn, it creates creatures of dust and sand that attack, it animates objects, turns peoples insides to beetles, turns fog deadly to the touch, melts iron bars, causes people to combust into fire, fills buildings with bugs, causes tents to strangle people on their own, turns floors into blood, transports the blight to far off lands, freezes entire towns which crumble to dust at a touch, kills off forests of trees overnight, causes men to be smothered by flies, children of entire villages disappearing at once, people dropping dead by something unseen... and the list goes on and on. 10 - The dark one - the big bad of the story; although in many ways met with an anti-climatic and a bit uninspiring end. I would argue that the whitecloaks aren't villains even though they have some bad eggs, same with the Seanchan who altogether are just bent on reclaiming lands (although being influenced by the forsaken). Elaida, while a villain for sure is among the weakest of the villains in the story and really shouldn't make the list ahead of the 10 I mentioned above. There are far more interesting darkfriends than Elaida and for sure more powerful ones.
I can't believe that you utterly ignore Mazrim Taim (M'Hael). As the only Foresaken from the contemporary world of the books, it says an enormous amount of how much the Dark one sees in him. He breaks the Black Tower. He's completely driven by ambition and, prior to Rand coming to the fore, he was one of the most successful False Dragons of all time. Also, he nearly defeated the Amyrlin Seat. Should definitely be in the top 10!
I think Rand was the scariest of all the characters. Considering that reality itself depended on him. Perhaps you can do a list on the scariest characters, personality and impact being the criteria for judgement.
I was actually terrified of him later in the series when he starts to become more and more unstable. Fantastic character development, his practice duel with Tam right near the end was an excellent breaking point in his character when he learns to just let go (as well as when he's on top of dragonmount almost using the choedan kal)
I also wanted rand to lose his v card to Selene prior to discovering that she's Lanfear. It really sucks that pre-bore Lanfear was never explored further, because I have a feeling being the first human to come into contact with the DO fucked her up tremendously. She was exploring a way for men and women to work together better in the power without bars and then she goes totally mental. I'd swap her and Graendal. And Elan Morin Tedronai is the most tragic character in the series and his interactions with Rand are some of the best I wish there was more.
I can’t believe you described Donald Trump when you talked about Elaida. Kinda scary how they parallel each other. Good list, overall. But, how is the Dark One not scarier than every Forsaken? He certainly is scarier to the people of the world.
I don't always agree with you, but I really respect how you break down your assessments. Love Daniel Greene, but you're my favourite WoT content creator. Keep making these vids, I love them!
I did not like you including a culture as a vilian (Seanchan and Whitecloak). Too many individuals make too much difference. For the Whitecloaks, you have the older Bornhald, Nial and Galad who you can make a case are decent individuals who just believe in what the Whitecloaks believe in. Then you have the Grand Inquisitor, Eamon Valda and Byar. Those men are more evil.
I would have changed a few ratings, but overall I think it's a good list. I think my biggest disagreement is ranking the Whitecloaks so high, but that may be caused by grouping them together. Oddly enough, I don't feel the same problem with the Seanchan though, and I would rate their scariness higher, considering that even the White Tower was afraid of being destroyed by them (and it looked like they could have done it).
My favorite thing about Ishmael is how when he died, the Dark One IMMEDIATELY brought him back. The other forsaken didn’t hold a candle to Ishmael cuz the Dark One holds him at the highest regard as he brought Ishmael back faster than all the others
I always saw The Seanchan as an allegory for Imperial Japan 🇯🇵 and as Tuon being a directly inspired by Emperor Hirohito/Showa, the only Axis leader to remain in power for 64 years without facing the war crimes he committed in WW2. I'm pretty sure Robert Jordan was thinking of UNIT 731 when writing scenes with the Damane and the scene were Rand contemplated destroying the entire Seanchan empire with Balefire as an obvious reference to the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
Just like with Tuon people are very split on Hirohito; some calling him a war criminal who had the power to stop what was happening while others say the Japanese socialist party (like Semirhage) just used his divine image as a ploy and that he had no true position of power, because he wasn’t allowed to be scene in public in order to maintain the allusion of him being a divine descendant of the Sun Goddess (similar to how Tuon is called Daughter of the Nine Moons).
I'm not sure about Semirhage's position. It's clear that she's a complete psychopath - her arrogance over her reputation offers the key to Cadsuane breaking her, when Sorilea mentions her disappointment at seeing her: "she's a person," as Cadsuane says. Also, Moghedien. Surely her surviving the entire way through, avoiding death, unlike so many of her peers, gives more credence to her level of villainy? Aginor? After all, not only did he create all of the Shadowspawn, when resurrected as Corlan Dashiva, he instantly gained Rand's trust. Lanfear didn't turn to the light either. She used Perrin to get into the Pit of Doom, to kill Moiraine and Nynaeve, then Rand (Moridin would have likely died in the process too), an act that would have redeemed her in the eyes of Shai'tan and made her Nae'blis. I think the Gholam could have been in your top 10 too.
Great video! I’d have to disagree with you about the intelligence of the Seanchan though. I don’t think their reliance on signs and superstitions means they are dumb because a few times in the book it goes in favor for certain characters when they heed those signs or disfavor when they don’t. It’s often used as foreshadowing as well
I will go ahead and say that, whether Jar-Jar is Ta'veren or not, he get's killed by someone in the first book, most likely by a friend. I love these videos, and look forward to more!
Suffa is a good damane. Slayer wouldn't rate very high based on your criteria, but he was the character I absolutely HATED the most and couldn't wait for him to die. Honorable mentions to Daved Hanlon, Masema, and Shadar Haran
Nae’blis, you got it backwards. Ishy is not the avatar of the Dark One. The Dark One is the avatar of Ishy. That’s why he understands the DO so well and why he’s been able to manipulate the world for thousands of years.
I can't say I agree with your ratings for the dark one and I think graendal has more impact. She killed Asmodean, manipulated Sammael so Rand could kill him and cleared the way for Demandred to take control of Shara
In regards to the question on the whiteboard, ta'varen seem to find what they most need just when they need it most, so Jar Jar Binks would find a brain at some point early on. Or maybe I just need an excuse not to eat my dog.
Oliver Papa I believe she was a Dreamer. At one point Birgette comments that while Lanfear considers the World of Dreams hers, Moghedien is actually stronger there. I don’t think that happens unless you have a natural Talent there.
I think Padan Fain is #1 here. He is scarier than the dark one, the whole pack of Forsaken, the cloaks, the black ajah, the black tower .. All of them put together have nothing on Fain. He is a top villain in that he is single minded in his quest to destroy Rand. All the others swing from destroying Rand, helping Rand to using Rand. Making all of them lesser villains in threat level if nothing else. You know when Fain shows up that Rand or one of his group is in for some serious hurting.
Lanfear, Padan Fain, and the Gholam pretty much tie for scariest villains tbh. Fain raped and pillaged, the gholam ripped a defenseless queen's head off, and Lanfear straight up s k i n n e d a man alive. Cold. Blooded.
Padan Fain was such a wasted opportunity. Easily one of the most scary, mysterious and compelling characters for me in the whole series. I loved the long build-up and how he got more and more powerful and evil, he somehow felt more evil than the Shadow itself. The Shadow feared him. I understand Sanderson was short on pages to solve all of Jordan’s loose ends, but he really should have prioritized that plotline IMO.
Honestly I don’t think The Dark One even qualifies as a villain. It doesn’t really direct anything that we know of, except to specify inscrutable desires to its minions. It doesn’t really appear to have any motivation, except maybe to cause reality to not exist at all, and I think that isn’t clear either. In my headcanon, The Dark One really is only a reflection or polution of the chaos underneath by the people within the pattern. “...he understood, finally, that the Dark One wasn’t the enemy. It never had been...”
The only disagreement I have is the Seanchan story arc/effects. They were mentioned briefly through the first few novels before coming into focus, but then as distant threats for the next novel or two. It takes a little bit for them to hit their stride. I would argue that puts them more into 6/7 out of 10.
It's Binks, not Binx... But as someone who grew up with the Prequel trilogy, I really do not mind Jar Jar as much as the folks who saw the Originals first. So, it's a pretty easy choice for me 😜 Also, his storyline in the Aftermath novel was incredibly sad and me feel for the guy.
I am not a fan of including cultures as a vilian. It does not account for powerful outliers within the culture or organization. For ex. Some of the powerful Whitecloaks were not as bad as the stereotypical WC. Galad was quite enlightened over the typical WC. Had Valda or the head of the Questioners been in charge, WC would not have fought on team light in the last battle
Food for thought. Very well put together. For argument’s sake I’ll quibble with both the ranking of The Dark One... and the reasoning behind it. Apart from Lanfear - who just sees him as a facilitator, a means to an End - The Dark One is the Font of all evil & most antagonism in The WoT. He inspires plenty of fear early, until our Heroes grow into their roles and find power of their own. The problem imo is that in the end, like most of the Dark antagonists throughout, the nebulous idea of him & his capabilities, by far exceeds the reality of what is presented by the conclusion. Kind of like the Figs & Mice analogy Juilin Sandar tells Nynaeve & Elayne about after he rescues them from Ronde Macura. He’s basically #1 for me, who in the end gets relegated to Plain Zero, on a technicality of the contradictory & wholly unsatisfying denouement, that a terribly executed depiction of The Last Battle foists on readers.
Thought experiment: If you (the reader of this comment) were to step into the books, and experience the world of the wheel of time. Would your list of villains change? For me yes, it would. Curious though what your top list would look like?
I’d rather eat my dog at least if it’s fresh because that lasts once whereas having jar jar scar the series is going to be irreversibly burned into my brain
I don't have a dog, but would still choose Jar Jar Binks regardless. I think the 'Darth Jar Jar' is truly a missed opportunity to twist things around and am sad that Star Wars didn't make him involved with the Sith somehow.
Personally I find the Seanchan really scary. They give me the creeps every time they show up. Even without the a`dam they are a bunch of fanatic slavers with scary monsters. When you factor in the a`dam the creepiness is overwhelming. For me, they are the number one on the "villains you love to hate"-list.
Apart from that I agree with your list whole-heartedly. Glad you came around with Lanfear, I absolutely love her, problems and all.
These lists are really great, you show us how you think and obey your own rules, that shows integrity. Absolutely love it.
The a'dam usage and the way they treat damane as pets as always been scary and revolting for me. I don't know why but every time they appear in the book, I just had a tough time getting through it. I was always really angry at them. For me it just goes to show us how good these books are.
The lore videos are my favorites, even if they don’t get as many views.
Plot twist Jar Jar is actually shai'tan!
This made me laugh way too hard.
My daughter always suggested Betty White bc she's old enough!
Lanfear wasn’t very scary to me reading the books but in real life a character like her would be off the charts creepy. She is basically an obsessive stalker who will not only boil your bunny but anyone who looks twice at you. Her arrogance in thinking she could win back her old lover was the only thing that kept her going salt the earth apocalyptic. She wasn’t building an empire and stacking power on her side she had vague personal goals which when thwarted meant she was unpredictable and highly unstable. This should come off much better on screen.
The Gholam really deserves a place on this list. It was a serious threat that was extremely scary and nobody really knew how to stop it, it could kill channelers and break into just about anywhere. It may lack much motivation being just a shadowspawn but for much of Mat's arc, it was the most threatening entity to his life.
I think part of the reason the Dark One isn’t that scary is bc he’s bound the whole time.
Meesa Jar-Jar al'Binks. Meesa thatcher's apprentice caught up in crazy events. Meesa wish me understand womans as well as friends Rand, Mat, and Perrin.
Meesa no like Tairen tabac as good as Two Rivers tabac. Meesa Two Rivers bow can make yousa people die from way over theres! Meesa always wondering if friend Rand is already insane, but I knoes he been through lots and only meesa never change.
Y'all really made me read this with my own two eyes
Meesana? 😜
As you were talking about Elaida, I had a thought. She has similar personality traits to many of the Forsaken before they became Forsaken. One thing that always kind of bugged me is that there's really only one new Forsaken when the Last Battle actually occurs. Elaida's strong enough in the power, a limiting factor that I believe otherwise would have seen Alviarin join their number. (As a thought for the show) How about, if after getting captured by the Seanchan, she have another foretelling as a damane and then, as she is wont to do, takes the wrong lesson from it. She discovers her sul'dam is also a Darkfriend. She commits to the Dark One, and flees Seanchan with a sizable contingent of Darkfriend sul'dams (it's a profession that feels like it should be lousy with darkfriends), goes full tilt evil, and ends up as a Forsaken as well?
Also, mentioning new Forsaken, I really expected Taim on this list. Not high, but present
Great video. The only problem I have is not including the Gholam, I would definitely put him in the top 10.
I was going to watch this video to see the Gholam, thanks for letting me know it's not in it.
I will always favor your lore videos over news. These will stand the test of time, and I hope they will be viewed by many of the future tv show fans who desire deeper understanding of the WoT series. This particular list drives home just how complex and deep this story is that there are so many compelling antagonists. In fact there are many who did not make the top 10.
You were right !
I believe that Mordeth tried to combine with Paden Fain, and couldn't due to Paden Fain's link with the Shadow. This probably drove him even more insane, and he just evolved from that mish mash of the evil that destroyed Shadar Logoth. So he did have an arc of sorts almost as a separate character.
I'm going to have to do a list and assign scores using your system- that might change what I'm about to say... but I feel like Slayer would have a high enough score to make it on this list. I realize his arc is focused mainly on Perrin, but still! Also, Mazrim Taim has a pretty big impact on the series at the end - building up the black tower and killing one of the main characters.
I think you have Elaida’s Power score too high.
She is very often manipulated or undermined by Alviarin and is overthrown by a girl leading a band of rebels, and gets crushed in her own tower by a raiding party of enemies she should’ve known were coming.
Exactly, she's stupid, vain and cruel. A villain but not worthy of a top 10 spot.
Lanfear would be higher for me. She's the one that drilled the Bore open in the first place, straight through the Pattern. Without her, no story at all.
My number 1 is the gholam (I am not counting the dark one)
damn forgot him on my missed list
I thought he'd be on the list, but he doesn't really have motivation... He's hella scary though!
Great video! I'm glad to see the top ten lists making a come back. I love them!
Wut no Demandred? He united all of Shara and was almost being the reason the shadow one the last battle. I feel like he had more of an impact on the story on a macro level than any of the forsaken besides Moridin. Maybe you rate him so low because he's only really in the last book. Still, I think he's at least top 10.
Also, shout out to Slayer.
"Almost won". Demandred always came second. All of the top ten occasionally won. You have a better argument with Slayer.
I agree. I think Demandred always coming second to Lews Therin makes him even more compelling.
What about fades? In the early books they are scary as nightmares. Also, Mizram Taim and Turning.
I don't think Graendal was ever truly a hedonist. I think she cultivated that reputation, as well as her heavy use of Compulsion, as a smokescreen, nothing more. She wanted everyone to underestimate her and find her somewhat ridiculous. I think her 'pets' were just decor for her, I don't think she actually cared about the pleasures of the flesh. I think in her heart of hearts, she always remained the monk-like person she was before. I think her fall to the Shadow was more about her disappointment in humanity than any selfish motive. Don't forget, she was a psychologist, and she wasn't inherently evil or cruel like Semirhage. But dealing with people and their failings probably took a toll on Graendal, and at some point her impossibly high standards for humanity had to give way somehow. I think this is why she adopted a "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em" mindset. And of course, being who she is, she realized that if you do join 'em, you need to have a strategy for coming out on top. Graendal successfully lulled all her fellow Forsaken into a false sense of security, and she was the instrument of the downfall of more than one of them. I hope the show really shows us Graendal's journey, because it's so different from Semirhage's "hey I'm just really evil" and Lanfear's "my boyfriend is cheating on me!!!11!!!". She could easily become a fan favorite, I think.
That’s an interesting take and very plausible. She’s one of my favorites
I 50% agree. I think she did cultivate that reputation intentionally and wasn’t obsessed with her pets like the other Forsaken thought. But I do think she enjoyed them and probably had cruel motives for being a psychologist.
@@rossj4755 I think it's much more interesting if she started out as a starry-eyed idealist who slowly realizes how utterly unscrupulous and selfish the average person is, and loses all respect for humanity as a result. I don't like the 'born bad' character arc, as though our character flaws are these immutable things that just appear because of our innate nature. As much as I love Semirhage, she's kind of one-note, because she does everything For The Evulz™. Lanfear is just a jealous brat. But Graendal could have started out as the hero of another tale, and because of her experience with psychology, I can easily see a crushing disillusionment taking over and causing her to completely change her priorities.
The reason I don't think Graendal ever really was a hedonist is because I think she created 'Graendal' as a character to portray, I don't think she ever was that person at all. She designed an identity that was the polar opposite of her own, so that if anyone believed any part of the persona, Graendal had the upper hand with them. Graendal never wanted anyone to know any true thing about herself, so I think everything that was believed by others was 100% manufactured by Graendal for that very purpose.
Taim is scarier than all these.
@@ethanpoints8735 why? He's just another guy that's jealous of Rand. He's evil because he's evil. What's scary about that?
Padan Fain was always under apreciated as a villain I think, he was at the end the other part of Evil. He was almost unstopable and there was only one who could kill him and it was not Rand. I mean, as Saidin and Saidar are halves of the One Power; Shaitan and Shaisam were the same for the True Power.
The same as Lanfear, her plan actually worked, she was at the best position to win the game at the end; just the love Perrin felt for Faile avoided her the ultimate goal to rule alone.
Demandred in the Age of Legends was always second fiddle to Lews Therin. It only made sense that he stay away until he's ready to take him down. Having a final shot at killing Lews Therin (or rather Rand in this era,) he'd want to be extremely well-prepared, coming in with a massive army and a top-3 sa'angreal. Of course, this keeps him from being all that fleshed-out in the books.
Ishamael/Moridin may have understood the Dark One the best, but I feel that Graendal was the most loyal to the cause. She was one of the most willing to work with the other Forsaken, but would also take out any traitors. Her niche was also highly effective in the battles, nearly swinging them without much assistance from the other Forsaken.
Lanfear was a bit of a missed opportunity. She was an effective 'seductive darkness' that could have been even greater had she learned some of the 'tricks' some girls develop before going to the White Tower, or perhaps chosen her target better. Mat in particular could perhaps have been swayed in the Aiel Waste. Compulsion was too much a blunt hammer for her, but she didn't really combine her powers of persuasion with saidar particularly well.
I really missed this kind of videos, they're my favourite!!!!
White cloaks will make a pretty compelling group (along with the prophet and the White Tower in general) in the TV series because to me they reflect a lot of what is going on in the present day world with their dogmatism and power for the sake of power.
Thanks for putting your time and effort into these videos. I'm excited to see where you take things when the show is released!
You didn't mention the seanchan's primary motivation. To retake the ancestral lands of Artur hawkwing. The control of channelers is necessary, but they are just tools. The seanchan don't give the practice a second thought. They came to reclaim what is already theirs by right. That is honestly their only motivation. Still loved the video though.
I love your videos, I've been bingeing on this channel and Daniel Greene's WoT videos and it's inspired me to read the books again for the 4th time. Started eye of the world last night and I was physically thrilled while reading the first chapter just knowing how everything unfolds but also excited to go through the story all over again. It's been around 3 years since I read them, the story has always stuck with me it's amazing. Thanks again and cheers for the great content👍
Darth jar jar is the only taveren we need.
Pretty spot on, i usually dont agree with your lists. With disagreement aside, i enjoy your content. I do disagree with your impact score for Padan Fain. Honestly, aside from Morridin, id say he had the single largest impact. He did disappear rather early on, but without him there would be no great hunt, no battle of the two rivers, no manupulation of Pedron Niall, no cleansing. Rand would have probably just blown up the Two Rivers. He deserves a 10/10 on impact. I also would have put Slayer in at rhe number 10 slot as hes one of the most compelling villains in the series, im assuming his impact was what had bumped him though.
You inspired me to do my own list: 1 - Padan Fain / Ordeith / Jeraal Mordeth / Shaisam - Starting as bitter darkfriend and becoming so much more. By the end of the series he was capable of killing anything including Jumara, Myrrdraal and trollocs. In fact, his mist turned trollocs into zombie-like slaves. Even the feared Machin Shin of the Ways, with their screaming voices greeted him as a friend and feared him, and even flead from him. He escaped from Slayer with ease, wounded Rand nearly killing him, and eventually becoming so deadly he could kill with a touch.
2 - lanfear - Loved to be hated by fans, complex, believable.
3 - Ishameal/Moridin - Pulling the strings, complex and independent of the darkones linear goals.
4 - Shadowspawn - Eyeless, Trollocs, Draghkar, Darkhounds, Gray Man, Gholam, and Jumara.
5 - the black aja / darkfriends - Feared by all the characters in the series and involved in all the best plot lines.
6 - The Chosen - hands of the dark ones; as a group they manipulate world events and these powerful channelers are feared by all. Although they have compelling stories, most of them are viewed with a single umbrella lumping Balthamel, aginor, asmodean, be'lal, rahvin, sammael, semirhage, mesaana, graendal.
7 - The Finn (Aelfinn and Eelfinn) - While it remains unclear for much of the story if these are evil or goodguys, it can be argued that their treaties and agreements leave those who bargain with them in a dangerous position. They wear clothing fashioned from human skin and attempt to kill the main characters on more than one occasion.
8 - The Aiel - We often forget by the end of the series that the Aiel as a group hate the other kingdoms and having been offended by the cutting down of a tree, marched over the lands killing many. Infact throughout the series the Aiel that end up siding with Rand are pursued by their own kind in larger numbers.
9 - Bubbles of evil - "evil power" itself independent of the locked away dark one which attaches to the threads of the wheel. Throughout the series creates some significant acts. It causes axes to attack characters on their own accord, it causes entire towns to kill each other in a bloodbath at night only to resurrect them at dawn, it creates creatures of dust and sand that attack, it animates objects, turns peoples insides to beetles, turns fog deadly to the touch, melts iron bars, causes people to combust into fire, fills buildings with bugs, causes tents to strangle people on their own, turns floors into blood, transports the blight to far off lands, freezes entire towns which crumble to dust at a touch, kills off forests of trees overnight, causes men to be smothered by flies, children of entire villages disappearing at once, people dropping dead by something unseen... and the list goes on and on.
10 - The dark one - the big bad of the story; although in many ways met with an anti-climatic and a bit uninspiring end.
I would argue that the whitecloaks aren't villains even though they have some bad eggs, same with the Seanchan who altogether are just bent on reclaiming lands (although being influenced by the forsaken). Elaida, while a villain for sure is among the weakest of the villains in the story and really shouldn't make the list ahead of the 10 I mentioned above. There are far more interesting darkfriends than Elaida and for sure more powerful ones.
Just keep doing what you're doing. Love your channel.
Cool list tho man. I would've added the shadowspawn as a whole to the list somewhere.
I can't believe that you utterly ignore Mazrim Taim (M'Hael).
As the only Foresaken from the contemporary world of the books, it says an enormous amount of how much the Dark one sees in him. He breaks the Black Tower. He's completely driven by ambition and, prior to Rand coming to the fore, he was one of the most successful False Dragons of all time. Also, he nearly defeated the Amyrlin Seat.
Should definitely be in the top 10!
Hope your channel blows up when the show starts. Really enjoy the content, thanks.
I think Rand was the scariest of all the characters. Considering that reality itself depended on him. Perhaps you can do a list on the scariest characters, personality and impact being the criteria for judgement.
I was actually terrified of him later in the series when he starts to become more and more unstable. Fantastic character development, his practice duel with Tam right near the end was an excellent breaking point in his character when he learns to just let go (as well as when he's on top of dragonmount almost using the choedan kal)
@@cloudbloom He was becoming Moridin before Veins of gold
I also wanted rand to lose his v card to Selene prior to discovering that she's Lanfear. It really sucks that pre-bore Lanfear was never explored further, because I have a feeling being the first human to come into contact with the DO fucked her up tremendously. She was exploring a way for men and women to work together better in the power without bars and then she goes totally mental. I'd swap her and Graendal. And Elan Morin Tedronai is the most tragic character in the series and his interactions with Rand are some of the best I wish there was more.
I can’t believe you described Donald Trump when you talked about Elaida. Kinda scary how they parallel each other. Good list, overall. But, how is the Dark One not scarier than every Forsaken? He certainly is scarier to the people of the world.
So many good villains
Wohooo, 4k Nae'blis rules the world so much better
I also like Graendal as character... Kudos for keeping her up on your list 😊👍
Padan Fain proved that Myrdraal could sweat.
Now to see whether I agree or not...
If jar jar could channel he might even be able to defeat Bela and kill the dark one and all the forsaken by looking at them funny
I don't always agree with you, but I really respect how you break down your assessments. Love Daniel Greene, but you're my favourite WoT content creator. Keep making these vids, I love them!
Doggo is starting to sound yummy, sorry Watson.
I did not like you including a culture as a vilian (Seanchan and Whitecloak). Too many individuals make too much difference. For the Whitecloaks, you have the older Bornhald, Nial and Galad who you can make a case are decent individuals who just believe in what the Whitecloaks believe in. Then you have the Grand Inquisitor, Eamon Valda and Byar. Those men are more evil.
For the Seanchan, you have soldiers like the general who worked with Perrin.
Andrew Berenson
Who are you replying to?
I added my comments in the wrong section
I would have changed a few ratings, but overall I think it's a good list. I think my biggest disagreement is ranking the Whitecloaks so high, but that may be caused by grouping them together. Oddly enough, I don't feel the same problem with the Seanchan though, and I would rate their scariness higher, considering that even the White Tower was afraid of being destroyed by them (and it looked like they could have done it).
My favorite thing about Ishmael is how when he died, the Dark One IMMEDIATELY brought him back. The other forsaken didn’t hold a candle to Ishmael cuz the Dark One holds him at the highest regard as he brought Ishmael back faster than all the others
Thanks again, Nae'Blis!
Snakes and Foxes!! give em some love
Yay! More content videos!
I eat dogs every day, not sure what the problem is
I think he means without BBQ sauce.
I always saw The Seanchan as an allegory for Imperial Japan 🇯🇵 and as Tuon being a directly inspired by Emperor Hirohito/Showa, the only Axis leader to remain in power for 64 years without facing the war crimes he committed in WW2. I'm pretty sure Robert Jordan was thinking of UNIT 731 when writing scenes with the Damane and the scene were Rand contemplated destroying the entire Seanchan empire with Balefire as an obvious reference to the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
Just like with Tuon people are very split on Hirohito; some calling him a war criminal who had the power to stop what was happening while others say the Japanese socialist party (like Semirhage) just used his divine image as a ploy and that he had no true position of power, because he wasn’t allowed to be scene in public in order to maintain the allusion of him being a divine descendant of the Sun Goddess (similar to how Tuon is called Daughter of the Nine Moons).
I don't have a dog currently, but i may go get one just to make sure possibility #1 NEVER happens.
I'm not sure about Semirhage's position. It's clear that she's a complete psychopath - her arrogance over her reputation offers the key to Cadsuane breaking her, when Sorilea mentions her disappointment at seeing her: "she's a person," as Cadsuane says.
Also, Moghedien. Surely her surviving the entire way through, avoiding death, unlike so many of her peers, gives more credence to her level of villainy?
Aginor? After all, not only did he create all of the Shadowspawn, when resurrected as Corlan Dashiva, he instantly gained Rand's trust.
Lanfear didn't turn to the light either. She used Perrin to get into the Pit of Doom, to kill Moiraine and Nynaeve, then Rand (Moridin would have likely died in the process too), an act that would have redeemed her in the eyes of Shai'tan and made her Nae'blis.
I think the Gholam could have been in your top 10 too.
Where on the list would you put the Slayer?
What about Machin Shin? I think it's terrifying...
Great video! I’d have to disagree with you about the intelligence of the Seanchan though. I don’t think their reliance on signs and superstitions means they are dumb because a few times in the book it goes in favor for certain characters when they heed those signs or disfavor when they don’t. It’s often used as foreshadowing as well
Jar Jar is actually the avatar of the pattern
Hot dog get your Hot dog here!
(Yay a WOT list)
I will go ahead and say that, whether Jar-Jar is Ta'veren or not, he get's killed by someone in the first book, most likely by a friend. I love these videos, and look forward to more!
If they sell jar jar toys then the show can have a bigger budget!
Suffa is a good damane. Slayer wouldn't rate very high based on your criteria, but he was the character I absolutely HATED the most and couldn't wait for him to die. Honorable mentions to Daved Hanlon, Masema, and Shadar Haran
Nae’blis, you got it backwards. Ishy is not the avatar of the Dark One.
The Dark One is the avatar of Ishy. That’s why he understands the DO so well and why he’s been able to manipulate the world for thousands of years.
I can't say I agree with your ratings for the dark one and I think graendal has more impact. She killed Asmodean, manipulated Sammael so Rand could kill him and cleared the way for Demandred to take control of Shara
First to watch just to check if Graendal is in the right spot...
The answer to your background white board question is, without a single doubt in my mind, number 2.
In regards to the question on the whiteboard, ta'varen seem to find what they most need just when they need it most, so Jar Jar Binks would find a brain at some point early on. Or maybe I just need an excuse not to eat my dog.
Excellent 👍
was Moghedien a dreamer? or did she just know the weave to go there?
Oliver Papa I believe she was a Dreamer. At one point Birgette comments that while Lanfear considers the World of Dreams hers, Moghedien is actually stronger there. I don’t think that happens unless you have a natural Talent there.
Id like to see a list of the best/worst double dealings or dark plots.
How did I not make the list? I demand a recount.
I think Padan Fain is #1 here. He is scarier than the dark one, the whole pack of Forsaken, the cloaks, the black ajah, the black tower .. All of them put together have nothing on Fain. He is a top villain in that he is single minded in his quest to destroy Rand. All the others swing from destroying Rand, helping Rand to using Rand. Making all of them lesser villains in threat level if nothing else. You know when Fain shows up that Rand or one of his group is in for some serious hurting.
I love Lore videos!!!!
wheres the segue music?????
What are your thoughts on the "three on a boat"prophecy?
Lanfear, Padan Fain, and the Gholam pretty much tie for scariest villains tbh. Fain raped and pillaged, the gholam ripped a defenseless queen's head off, and Lanfear straight up s k i n n e d a man alive. Cold. Blooded.
Seanchan are the scariest... there is no real 'good' ending because they win.
Honourable mentions The Gholam, Mazrim Taim, Slayer.
What About demandred and others ?
Shaidar Haran is the reincarnation of the Dark One. And he is scary.
Padan Fain was such a wasted opportunity. Easily one of the most scary, mysterious and compelling characters for me in the whole series. I loved the long build-up and how he got more and more powerful and evil, he somehow felt more evil than the Shadow itself. The Shadow feared him. I understand Sanderson was short on pages to solve all of Jordan’s loose ends, but he really should have prioritized that plotline IMO.
I am pretty surprised Slayer and Demandred are not on this list.
I can see every hair on your beard........
What about the black ajah? I am surprise they are not on the list
Narg is the man...
Honestly I don’t think The Dark One even qualifies as a villain. It doesn’t really direct anything that we know of, except to specify inscrutable desires to its minions. It doesn’t really appear to have any motivation, except maybe to cause reality to not exist at all, and I think that isn’t clear either. In my headcanon, The Dark One really is only a reflection or polution of the chaos underneath by the people within the pattern.
“...he understood, finally, that the Dark One wasn’t the enemy. It never had been...”
The only disagreement I have is the Seanchan story arc/effects. They were mentioned briefly through the first few novels before coming into focus, but then as distant threats for the next novel or two. It takes a little bit for them to hit their stride. I would argue that puts them more into 6/7 out of 10.
Jar Jar makes a lot of sense for the TV show
It's Binks, not Binx... But as someone who grew up with the Prequel trilogy, I really do not mind Jar Jar as much as the folks who saw the Originals first. So, it's a pretty easy choice for me 😜
Also, his storyline in the Aftermath novel was incredibly sad and me feel for the guy.
I am not a fan of including cultures as a vilian. It does not account for powerful outliers within the culture or organization. For ex. Some of the powerful Whitecloaks were not as bad as the stereotypical WC. Galad was quite enlightened over the typical WC. Had Valda or the head of the Questioners been in charge, WC would not have fought on team light in the last battle
Food for thought.
Very well put together.
For argument’s sake I’ll quibble with both the ranking of The Dark One... and the reasoning behind it.
Apart from Lanfear - who just sees him as a facilitator, a means to an End - The Dark One is the Font of all evil & most antagonism in The WoT.
He inspires plenty of fear early, until our Heroes grow into their roles and find power of their own.
The problem imo is that in the end, like most of the Dark antagonists throughout, the nebulous idea of him & his capabilities, by far exceeds the reality of what is presented by the conclusion.
Kind of like the Figs & Mice analogy Juilin Sandar tells Nynaeve & Elayne about after he rescues them from Ronde Macura.
He’s basically #1 for me, who in the end gets relegated to Plain Zero, on a technicality of the contradictory & wholly unsatisfying denouement, that a terribly executed depiction of The Last Battle foists on readers.
Jar Jar, by far.
A bit late, but never been happy about not having a dog in my life before this video
Thought experiment:
If you (the reader of this comment) were to step into the books, and experience the world of the wheel of time. Would your list of villains change?
For me yes, it would. Curious though what your top list would look like?
_"- She smart af"_
😄😄😄😄
Egwene was the best villain
She was just the worst wasn't she?
I don't have a dog HA!!
I’d rather eat my dog at least if it’s fresh because that lasts once whereas having jar jar scar the series is going to be irreversibly burned into my brain
I don't have a dog, but would still choose Jar Jar Binks regardless. I think the 'Darth Jar Jar' is truly a missed opportunity to twist things around and am sad that Star Wars didn't make him involved with the Sith somehow.
I wonder who will play Padan Fein in the tv-show...
He has been cast already! Johann Myers
Seanchan were the scariest for me