Nonsense, Amir! If you would've just processed your video on some PS Audio protected computers and used proper Audioquest USB and Ethernet cables, we wouldn't have seen this. Repent! (jk jk jk, if it wasn't obvious)
He doesn't 'try' to be fair, nor does he 'judge' - bar the subjective listening he just provides the scientific facts. It astounds me how many folk seem to scratch their head at 'unbiased' - sure he has plenty of negative things to say, why? because the audio industry has an INORDINATE amount of snake oil, much of which can be, AND NOW HAS been, unquestionably refuted by scientific analysis. The fact this man isn't met with absolute gratitude by audio enthusiasts is beyond astounding to me - literally the consumers themselves who are complete victims and being ripped off are doing the work of the sales people FOR them the way they jump up and down defending these unscrupulous buisness folk is one of the most bizzare things I have ever witnessed....
@@fwabble Hello fwabble. You're correct, but if you take in the depth & scale of snake oil, self interest & ignorance in this industry, then, as many wouldn't have the technical knowledge to refute what has just been presented, then you can't really blame anyone for adopting a skeptical attitude to all.
GR research remains assmad, and his audience of sheeple is ridiculous. I considered buying one of his open baffle kits, but when he can't take valid criticism, and refers to people who like to see measurements as "flat earthers", I'll spend my money somewhere else. Imagine calling people flat earthers while you're the one slinging snake oil.
@@fwabble I hear what you are saying and take it into account. But music has soul, emotions a human trying to reach other people's heart, that's not just defined by numbers, that shit satisfies or scratches an itch deep within. Numbers give you an indication of a speakers ability to translate that, but they are two different things, you don't hear the numbers, your hear/feel/smile or cry because of the ability of someone else to convey emotion with sound. Or hell, maybe you're right and it is just numbers 🤷🏼♂️
Thanks for the review, was actually very curious how the mods really perform. It's striking how 1 guy can redesign the crossiver from a giant like Klipsch and solve their problems...
Sensitivity + the "showroom sound". The "happy smile V curve" often grabs people's attention when they are selecting speakers. Budget speakers tend to suffer from this. I think manufacturers know their markets and target accordingly.
Could it be that speaker was meant to be used as surround channels and have little need for vocal range but more need to run on underpowered surround channel amplifier. If so, selling as bookshelf speaker set is deceiving.
Klipsch doesn't care about accuracy, they do what catches people's attention. In this case, elevated highs and lows. They make speakers to sell for profit, not to accurately reproduce sound.
GR research presents a compelling proposition. Modifications and improvements for speakers. Good to see it sort of worked out here. My dream speaker is the Gershman Avant Garde. But there are no measurements available anywhere. One day I will send it to you Amir while praying that it is good.
Danny will test it free , so IF you have speakers you wonder about ? i say send it . i have sent several some he suggested NOT doing anything ! said buy something better basically , but i got good data FREE ! & now i know will Amir do that ? does he FIX speakers ? sell kits to do so ? or just test them ? (W/ GR research, I paid for shipping both ways ) some he is improving yea some might end up more than just buying a better speaker BUT then THAT OTHER more $ speaker prob has issues ! seems most DO ! WTF ! theses speaker maker guys would never make it IF they made exotic cars! most cars CAN be left unmodded & work great ! at least if i pay for speaker upgrade i know it prob can't be better ! BTW some OTHER guys do upgrades too for the same model of speakers and most seem to be about same cost ! lots of good reviews for BOTH versions by owners ! so modding seems legit ! I mod my Ferrari and it gets better ! I make and sell better ,lighter parts for F430's, & 458 some purists hate me ! LOL 🤣 yea, I know about expectations of results bias . I have extra unmodded of same speakers so i will do blind A-B tests as you suggested, done by my nephew so i have NO idea which is which !
I 'got stuck' with a pair of the original RP600Ms when two well-known pundits named it 'speaker of the year.' I no longer trust either of them to give me the time of day. I immediately disliked the 600Ms, and it grew. Almost a year after they arrived, Amir did his tests, and it was very easy to see why I disrespected the RP600Ms. His test measurements lined up exactly with what I heard. Much later, Danny proposed his mod, which I was almost ready to pounce on until I saw the cost: $244 on top of the pair of speakers I had paid only $460 for new. Looked to me like good money after bad, so I passed. I began to lick my speaker wounds and start searching for a pair of speakers I might like better. Just about then, Amir released his glowing test of the Elac DBR62s, and they were for sale at a discounted price. Long story short, I loved the little Elacs. They evoked music as I remember it, in concerts and jazz clubs, and they had none of the annoying character of the Klipsch's. So... the RP600Ms found a stall, face down in the storage room downstairs for over a year. I had been suffering along in my bedroom with an ancient pair of Advent 8 inchers from HiFi's Jurassic period. In hopes of improvement, I schlepped the 600Ms up two flights and listened. At quite low (bedroom) levels, they weren't so annoying anymore. Not audiophile stuff, but not annoying. I've since added a little sub. I'll go back and look at Amir's old 600M review to see what he did for EQ. The bedroom amp, a Denon PMA600NE, has a tape loop -- just begging for a little DSP. Film at eleven...
Excellent information presented clearly. So my takeaway is that since there wasn't a phase issue at the crossover point causing cancelation there, it would be just as easy to run the correction feature in REW on this speaker and generate a digital filter and run that filter in equalizerAPO, JRiver, miniDSP, BruteFIR or any other digital filter engine and get the improvement in frequency response. Adding the damping and I think you would have an improved result, as the high order crossover has better vertical off axis response. The low order crossover always destroys the vertical off axis response in speakers like this with the woofer and tweeter not coincident.
I have always struggled with what speaker imperfections are suitable for correction via EQ and what imperfections are not……..in any event that is what Amir said, so I guess that is the case
Its reassuring the mods measure well, GR takes a lot of bashing for offering mods. This review shows GR does know quite a bit about speaker design also they do it quite economically.
Nice review and very complimentery to Danny's own video where he then goes further with 4 more installments showing how to assemble and implement the upgrade. As keen followers of the GR-Research channel can atest, this is a very common issue with Klipsch (and B&W) speakers and the reason that owners send their speakers to Danny for upgrade / fixing. Interesting to see the more in depth analysis here
Danny will test it free , so IF you have speakers you wonder about ? i say send it . i have sent several some he suggested NOT doing anything ! said buy something better basically , but i got good data FREE ! & now i know will Amir do that ? does he FIX speakers ? sell kits to do so ? or just test them ? (W/ GR research, I paid for shipping both ways ) some he is improving yea some might end up more than just buying a better speaker BUT then THAT OTHER more $ speaker prob has issues ! seems most DO ! WTF ! theses speaker maker guys would never make it IF they made exotic cars! most cars CAN be left unmodded & work great ! at least if i pay for speaker upgrade i know it prob can't be better ! BTW some OTHER guys do upgrades too for the same model of speakers and most seem to be about same cost ! lots of good reviews for BOTH versions by owners ! so modding seems legit ! I mod my Ferrari and it gets better ! I make and sell better ,lighter parts for F430's, & 458 some purists hate me ! LOL 🤣 yea, I know about expectations of results bias . I have extra unmodded of same speakers so i will do blind A-B tests as you suggested, done by my nephew so i have NO idea which is which !
@@jackdale9249 yes I know. I live in Germany so not so easy to send. I just developed new crossovers for my Linn Tukan and 5110’s as Atmos Surrounds for my home Theater, I didn’t get them as good as Danny would but they’re already better than original. Maybe I send one of the Tukans for evaluation and new upgrade kit
@@jackdale9249 I see Danny did an upgrade for the Klipsch Cornwall III, but the Cornwall IV I was supposed to have fixed some of those problems. I forget does he have an upgrade kit for the Cornwall IV, or is it just for the Cornwall III? Because I have the Cornwall IV for a few weeks now, and at times with the right music they sound great specially after adjusting the distance and angles--I should try raising the cables off the floor. D. oes he install his kits for you if you send him the speakers. They would be a beast to pack up and send to him--they were delivered by freight on a pallet. Alternatively I can just dismiss what he says about the "cheesy" parts (probably got the idea to use that word because most of them are yellow) and other things like bracing and padding affecting the sound and just enjoy them. I could even rationalize it by saying maybe the design just works with those parts and the lack of racing is part of the sound enhancement and resonance for vocals, not distortion. Just as they used to say that that people thought vinyl sounded better because they were used to the distortion. I think it was more than that. It seems to me on some music transfer to digital just does not capture everything, such as the soundtrack to The Good, the Bad and the Ugly, even the remastered versions. Whatever it was, the horn music just sounded better on the vinyl, even though in the 80s I was listening to it on moderate equipment but with mid range horn speakers.
Danny gets a little out there on his speaker cable and connector opinions, but he is very talented at cabinet and crossover design, modification and frequency response. Great to see this objective review of his work.
Danny's cable BS puts me off his talented speaker mods. There was no need to con customers into buying power and speaker cables that do nothing other than take their hard earned money. Then he has the gall to claim he can take a DBT on his power cables and pass them every time yet he never has done it and never will. he knows He's full of BS. People like this deserve to go flip burgers.
@@davidlong1786 To be fair there are thousands of speaker cable companies though, several of them are extremely successful at selling multi-thousand $$ cables like Cardas. At the end of the day Danny is just a small businessman trying to turn a profit and lots of people will buy expensive cables just for the bling, placebo effect, or just to match his speakers with his cables, just because.
@@stonecoldcustoms And that is supposed to make him being yet another snake oil salesman okay? What kind of fucked up logic is this??? "Oh everybody else is stealing at WalMart so I might as well too, just because." Remind me never to trust YOU for anything.
Another very fair, informative and well explained review. I can't wait to play the part about repeating the same music over and over again when testing to the Mrs., who continually asks me if the tracks I listen to (often) while checking something out, are "my favorite songs" 😁
Back in 2006 I demoed the current top o' the line Klipsches very much like these Klipsches in the video, B+W's and... Revel M22's. In addition to being 1/2 price the Revel's stole my heart. Still have them and love them. :)
These are the mass market Klipsch out of Indianapolis/ China. The REAL DEAL are the Heritage Line ..still hand made in Hope Arkansas since the early 50s. Absolutely nothing in common with this big box stuff. I was disappointed they put the Klipsch name on them, but understand it’s a business and the play on the name.
Watch Danny's last video, he apologized for getting a little cheaky and even calling names. Said he is going to reach out to Samir and see if the different camps can be civil and learn from each other.
So glad to see we can have a positive interaction as well! Thanks for the effort and review. Klipsch have a basic sound. I find it interesting when people react to it as if that was not known! They shoot for sis boom. And the results were as expected! I would say if you axidently bought a pair, Danny is the way to go. But why start from scratch when for the total out of pocket an existing good end result alternative is available.
Do you ever get the feeling that Klipsch just slapped together a speaker with parts laying around and later Danny is sent a pair to design the network for them? Frankly, I don't know which is the better deal for Gr Research, acting as a paid consultant to Klipsch or selling the kits? He seems to modify a lot of Klipsch products.
@@mortlach186 I doubt they were just laying around, but slapped together? Yep! Danny proves that! Klipsch delivered another speaker with the intentional Klipsch sis boom. Tons of people buy them and love it! A few might be disappointed and find someone like GR to help them. While I appreciate Danny's efforts to correct the typical bad design of mass produced retail speakers. I'm more along the lines of why bother? Why not just get good ones from the beginning? But obviously names sell. I may not agree with all of Danny's approaches. But I applaud his intentions and efforts! As I do Amirm's.
@@glenncurry3041 I was taking poetic license (the parts laying around), but Danny gets a lot (A LOT!) of Klipsch in for work. It just seems easier for the factory put out another poorly designed speaker, again and again, that impresses the uninitiated, then realize the errors of their way and look for someone like GR to make them listenable. And they have two or three more Klipsch in the queue for a redesign and kit for their networks. That was a month ago. Has Klipsch released any new speakers for GR to correct this month? You know I knew nothing about Gr Research until just by chance I saw him next to a pair of ATC 19"s to the right of a youtube page with the title "Finally! A speaker Danny likes?" I clicked on it and that was my first experience which then led to watching several of his videos. The ATC'19's are I think the only video of his that he doesn't redesign the cross-over, just replace the caps and some resistors with the damping material and his preferred connectors that I still, not so much have an issue with their efficacy, but the limitations on switching cables. I personally believe that Danny believes in the products he sells and that's fine with me. Now if I can find someone to do the mods for me or at least have him redo the networks and cut the damping material. I live in a condo now and really don't like doing this kind of stuff anymore. P S, I have basically a Park tool repair shop for my bikes and I now have a shop do any required work on them. Know anyone who wants to buy a few thousand bucks worth of tools? Willing do bargain.
@@mortlach186 You might enjoy checking back on some of Danny's other vids. He caused quite the stir in the youtube audio community some months back discussing the state of reviews/ reviewers around. I've been watching him since he broke off from a different channel some years ago.
Danny will test it free , so IF you have speakers you wonder about ? i say send it . i have sent several some he suggested NOT doing anything ! said buy something better basically , but i got good data FREE ! & now i know will Amir do that ? does he FIX speakers ? sell kits to do so ? or just test them ? (W/ GR research, I paid for shipping both ways ) some he is improving yea some might end up more than just buying a better speaker BUT then THAT OTHER more $ speaker prob has issues ! seems most DO ! WTF ! theses speaker maker guys would never make it IF they made exotic cars! most cars CAN be left unmodded & work great ! at least if i pay for speaker upgrade i know it prob can't be better ! BTW some OTHER guys do upgrades too for the same model of speakers and most seem to be about same cost ! lots of good reviews for BOTH versions by owners ! so modding seems legit ! I mod my Ferrari and it gets better ! I make and sell better ,lighter parts for F430's, & 458 some purists hate me ! LOL 🤣 yea, I know about expectations of results bias . I have extra unmodded of same speakers so i will do blind A-B tests as you suggested, done by my nephew so i have NO idea which is which !@@glenncurry3041
Reminds me of why I started to build speakers myself. Had some trouble with my first pair of proper speakers I bought when I started working (after Univ. and military service) back in the late - 90s. Removed the plate with connection posts and found out that the internal wiring and the components of the filters were as cheap as they could be. The speakers wes a new pair of B&W CDM1 and I just upgraded the cables to a pair of Audioquests. Yesterday I watched Danny dissect the filters of a pair of new Focals - it seems to be even worse today (often masked by DSP/room compensation in today's setups). Nowadays I buy reputable active studio monitors (like my latests work computer setup, a pair of Genelec 8010a and RoomEqWiz) or I build myself, like my new subwoofer using the new Scan Speak 15" Ellipticor. "Control is better than trust" was repeated daily during my military service, still holds true in this context.
Sorry to break it to you, but if you open up yout Genelecs, you'd see a large serving of "Cheese" and their designs are heavily dependent on DSP. Dont get me wrong, Genelec makes great products, but not too dissimilar from what you described in the audio products you left behind.
When something is good, you say so, and when it's bad, you say so. That seems like the way it should be. I can't get with the tube connector thing though. I guess I'm not ready. 😎
It is basically my only gripe with GR's mods: not the tubeconnectors per se but their PRICE and the fact you can't opt out of them, adding 60$ to every kit...
I agree, and I really like the positives implied by this review. I bought a pair of 600Ms based upon "flowery" reviews and after this am very tempted to update with the GR Research mod - to get quality parts, good instruction, and demonstrable audible improvement. I got the 600Ms at a very reasonable price. For context, my main speakers are Bozak B-305s that are over 60 years old and are soo large as to be practically infinite baffle. I got them from my dad who had much more musical knowledge than me. As rear room/surround speakers I have Klipsch two RF-3-2s and the two Klipsch 600Ms. I have a significant background in DSP and acoustics. When I have time I try to critically listen from mono to stereo, and to at times what appears to be multi-channel cacophony, unless directed well by multi-channel formats such as for movies. Otherwise, as others have noted, I would very much appreciate additional videos on the improvement of speaker measurements and sound by the placement of equalization hardware and software. I realize that these correction techniques are different, one is passive in the speaker and the other involves external power in the path; and the laws of physics can't be broken among the speaker and amplification. As noted in a previous. comment, in, time, a low-priced "real-time" ie introducing no audible signal delays, wall powered equalizer placed between the amplifier and speaker may provide great options for individual speaker response correction. Can it play well, with receiver-hosted "room equalization: software. I'm totally ignorant of multiple speaker correction options that can work with/without additional room correction options. As always, I appreciate your reviews and content that enhances audiophile knowledge and enjoyment! Thank you.
Nice work. I can see the value in this if you have these speakers and don't totally like the sound. Aesthetically they are pretty cool. Although if someone bought these I would imagine that they enjoy this sound..and nothing wrong with that,different strokes for different folks. And yes one could REW or EQ out the dips and valleys if they wanted while keeping the sensitivity the same, the MOD however also helps with the resonances (other than that mystery peak) and phase as well as some impedance dips. So I could see why someone that has owned these awhile and wanted a change would spend $250 for basically a new speaker. Having a more neutral frequency response is not everyone's cup of tea, but I think some people, especially younger, aren't sure what they are looking for or even know what they are missing when they buy these, reviewers said they were great 😃👍 You either love Klipsch sound or hate it, doesn't make you right or wrong, but it is cool to know that there are Mods out there that actually make a difference to the product. Videos like this are so valuable to the consumer.
Hey M W. I suspect a lot of the sales were generated on the back of glowing reviews. People are looking for recommendations. Steve Guttenberg said he was gobsmacked. This says it all.
you forgot time alignment no amount of EQ can solve that just like the Phase shift you mentioned. This reviewer is full of bs(software EQ fix). Ahja we al got to start some where.
I have the RP-260Fs that I've been wanting to get his crossover for which I know will correct some things...problem is I think I'm done with the general sound signature of these drivers. I like them for some things but I just don't find them sweet for music.
I did the upgrade to the B&W CDM-1NT. It took me over 60 hours to build, stack, and squeeze these huge circuit boards in there. I owned two sets of these speakers at the time so was able to A-B them. The modded speakers had much deeper, richer sound. The original pair sounded like a tin can in comparison. I gave the original pair to my son because I wasn't going to go through all that again. I've since committed myself to only buying pro audio monitors in the future.
Thankyou amir for offering an Olive branch. As an audiophile that was mentored by my late friend i see myself somewhere in between the science and design stage. My late friend got to a point where he over engineered his system and it became extremely precise and mechanical. There is a lot of truths which Danny mentions, but then there is the devil's advocate of what you do. Some things can't be measure but yet they do make a difference. However I would like to say thankyou once again as the arguing never stops in the real world, but you have chosen to do so. I really appreciate it. Cudos to you👍
Thank you! Your measurements have made me completely sick to my stomach! No, please, not your work, not at all. I sickened by the unison with which EVERY reviewer 2-3 years ago loved these speakers as though they were God's gift to audiophiles! No one heard these deficiencies in these speakers. Thank goodness there are objective reviewers that are objective and truthful. Nice job!
I bought these, listened to parts of about 4 or 5 familiar songs that I put them back in the box and returned them the next day. First gen Andrew Jones Pioneers, Sony's current entry level bookshelf's, and a few different JBL models were all much better... It surprises me that Klipsch is so popular when what they make is so bad
Thank you for this prescient review, and thanks to the member who took the time to share his investment with the rest of us. I have a pair of these speakers and even to my old ears I could hear some of the issues you outlined in your review. I was aware of the GR research mod kit but had been undecided whether I wanted to spend any more cash attempting to improve the situation, not to mention Danny's detour into la-la land regarding speaker cables! That didn't instill a lot of confidence! Listening to most of the comparisons between the modified and original speaker on TH-cam was inconclusive! I mean, TH-cam? Really? Anyway, I'm now seriously considering wading into this project. Thank you again, Amir.
namzarf I had the same opinion regarding Danny and his mod, I too found the TH-cam comparisons inconclusive. It's nice that Amir perfectly backs up what Danny claims his mod does. But I think I'm going to pass on the upgrade and buy a GR research speaker kit and get a pure GR research design.
Amir, in Danny’s curves of frequency response he overlayed the 2 individual driver response curves with the overall frequency speaker response. The frequency where the individual drivers crossed did not line up directly with the dip in the frequency response. I think he used this anomaly to say the 2 drivers where slightly out of phase at this point. Do you agree with this and if so how could this be corrected?
Thanks Amir. For most of the video I wanted to ask you if EQ would do the job without any new hardware. And in the last minute you answered that question (kind of). I will read the review on your website to learn more about that.
I bought a pair of these this winter with the 10" sub as a thank-you gift for an old friend, including an Audiolab 8000A. Now I feel almost bad about it. On the other hand he has the set in his garage for when he works on his bike, and he's in audio heaven so what he does not know will not hurt him.
Between us, for a garage speaker you want a very wide dispersion speaker so you can move around and the sound won't change too much. But don't worry, I won't tell him this. :)
I have to agree with Ritchie on this : EQ does not solve the problem of drivers being out of phase at the X-over point . His X-over redesign does solve that .
There made in china plus they are meant to be surround speakers for home theater and they need a sub woofer ,one has to have the complete set to really hear what they can do , but i do like the works of Paul Klipsch when he crafted speaker enclosures for ElectroVoice saying that I had to recraft a set of Aristocrat and gave them a more of a modern look as far as I am concerned EV is still on top for theater and live performances . I use the EV speaker 12 TRXB 16 ohm speaker from 1955 and they still work to this day filling my life with great sounding speakers also i use a Altec University mustangs as well , Altec made really good speakers back in the day they where very competitive to the EV Wolverine you can run any kind of speaker in the Aristocrat , i got plans from EV then used that to build a bran new enclosure , back in the day those speakers where also sold as a kit , was the start for me to recraft the Aristocrat , i also recrafted a set of Sentry 2 speakers and i stacked them with the aristocrats on top and each one is properly placed in my room so the entire room is flooded with great sound , I am the Speaker Doctor of Canada .
Danny won't be confused. Amir does not listen as an audiophile. He tests in ways that audiophiles do not listen. NEVER listen to someone's recommendations of one who does not listen to speakers in a system. BTW, Danny may be a bit elitist, but he did intellectually demolish Amir's bench test (which he called a review) of his X-ls speakers.
@@bbfrid88 There is more than one video that Danny has, so will have to be more specific. The one where Danny goes over Amirs bench test of the Encores, he does mention how people do not listen to music with one speaker at 96db.
@@EnemyofCredulity Unfortunately, I've seen a lot of the videos...never a mention of what the speakers sound like, unless they distort or there's some egregious problem. Just frequency response graphs, etc.
Good point. I just looked at my review of the B1+: www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/emotiva-airmotiv-b1-review-bookshelf-speaker.22366/. And it so close to how this speaker measures with the upgrade.
Fantastic work again! I just wonder what Klipsch were thinking designing this model. It's horrible! My 20 year old Dali 202 stanmounts measure way better although treble is a bit too hot. Danny did very good job fixing these speakers.
Some people like sparkling treble and loud bass. The drop in the midrange helps "accomplish" this. With this design many times, a vocalist will seem to drop out of the mix. The Rectilinear III was designed this way. The Pozo Seco Singers female vocalist would seem to disappear.
Seems a little unfair to call it lucky the revised design worked. One would expect that any competent designer to test what range the drivers can do before distortion before designing the new crossover. That aside, seems a very fair review and thanks for calling out BS in the industry.
I am interested to see how Danny responds to this because he was basically saying you are not fit to review audio equipment and specifically his gear...
Seems like it might be best to delete the passive x-over entirely. How about using a cheap 55 volt amp to bi-amp the box? ( assuming you want it in the first place) Maybe mount the amp on the speaker so no speaker cable expense? NO bad ideas in brain storming right?
Thank you for the review Amir. I am curious though - why you decided to not use the upgraded binding posts? Was that not part of the kit cost? Seems a bit odd to me when you mention the cost of the entire kit, but then only test parts of it? It would have been cool had you tested each of the upgrades included in the kit individually e.g. measuring both with and without the No-Rez for instance to see exactly how much dampening it provides, as well as how much the new crossover helped. Also, are you considering accepting Danny's invitation to go visit him in Texas? I think it would be cool to show a lot of people here who throw salt, that just because two people disagree - that doesn't mean you can't brake bread and listen to music together.
Company says the binding posts don't measure any different. I do not have the mating side in my measurement stand so went with the standard binding post. For listening, I do have a tube connector but terminating it is a one shot deal with crimp and soldering. I am reserving the one I have for a formal test. If I terminate it for speaker testing, then I have to fork over $50 for another pair! As to going to Texas, no, I don't have plans. Danny just says come over to eat BBQ and listen to music. I love to eat BBQ but don't want to spend thousand dollar plus to fly there and back. :) He could entice me to go there by conducting the blind test of cables he promised us last year. If he passes that, then I would definitely go there to verify. Otherwise, going to listen to someone's system is not anything that I want to do. If I lived close to him, sure, I would go regardless but that is not the case.
@@AudioScienceReview Amir, I’ve gained a lot of respect for you in the few days since I’ve discovered your work, actually through Danny. As a scientist and engineer working in the audio and music world myself, I appreciate your thorough coverage of the data and the intelligence you have collected, as well as keeping the hubris toned down, which a lot of audiophiles seem to have trouble doing 🙂
@@AudioScienceReview lol, well I guess that means no BBQ for you then, Amir! 😭 Hehe. I can't imagine any of these self-proclaimed audio experts ever submitting to a true blind test on cables. Deep down they know they'd never pass the test! 😆 Keep up the good work! ☺️
I would like to see a video where Amir takes an inexpensive DSP and shows how to use it to improve a speaker's sound. Is there a cheap box out there that I can use to do this? Where is the box DSP box connected? The output from the source? The output of the preamp (if you have one)? The output of the amp?
Depends. Sometimes the source, like a computer or an RME ADI-2 DAC, the MiniDSP sources, will let you EQ at the source. Otherwise, like with a record player or a tape deck, the best place would be between preamp and power amp. Something like a MiniDSP processor, or a Behringer ultravurve would do the job well there. If you don't have a preamp that will work that way, then I would put it between the source and the receiver, integrated amp, or whatever you are using.
I do it all the time with software DSP. Hardware version would be the same. I have tested a number of hardware DSP products. A product like Minidsp Flex takes digital input and outputs analog with excellent built-in DAC, solving the concern you have. Please see: www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/minidsp-flex-review-audio-dsp.30804/
@@Roof_Pizza re: resale value - not necessarily. I look at a lot of stuff (speakers+ electronics) in the Denver used market and I would buy it used if it sounded good with my test cd. It's like what is the best coffee? - the one you like best is the best. PS Rooftop Pizza in Santa Fe is THE BEST. I'll die on that hill. :)
I'd say it is worthwhile to lose 3Db in an undesired gain region if it means getting an overall more coherent and listenable set of speakers. GR-Research certainly did a good job remediating this sad little speaker and making it into something worth owning. I'd probably still avoid them, because my ears have a poor relationship with Klipsch's tweeters, but I'd try listening to something that they modded, at least once.
Danny will test it free , so IF you have speakers you wonder about ? i say send it . i have sent several some he suggested NOT doing anything ! said buy something better basically , but i got good data FREE ! & now i know will Amir do that ? does he FIX speakers ? sell kits to do so ? or just test them ? (W/ GR research, I paid for shipping both ways ) some he is improving yea some might end up more than just buying a better speaker BUT then THAT OTHER more $ speaker prob has issues ! seems most DO ! WTF ! theses speaker maker guys would never make it IF they made exotic cars! most cars CAN be left unmodded & work great ! at least if i pay for speaker upgrade i know it prob can't be better ! BTW some OTHER guys do upgrades too for the same model of speakers and most seem to be about same cost ! lots of good reviews for BOTH versions by owners ! so modding seems legit ! I mod my Ferrari and it gets better ! I make and sell better ,lighter parts for F430's, & 458 some purists hate me ! LOL 🤣 yea, I know about expectations of results bias . I have extra unmodded of same speakers so i will do blind A-B tests as you suggested, done by my nephew so i have NO idea which is which !
@@jackdale9249 The problem I have is that by the time I have enough spare cash lying around to consider having my KEF iQ90 towers tested and consider a crossover upgrade, I'd probably be better served tracking down and purchasing a set of KEF Reference 205/2 instead.
Hi I just bought a pair of rp 600 miis and I noticed right off the drop off . I was wondering if this mod would work with the miis as well . If so do you ship to spain?
Could you please review the RP-160M's? They've gone down to $195 right now, which is like 40% of the original price, makes me wonder if that makes them a deal at that price range
I wish someone would do a video explaining how to look at and read these graphs. No one ever has and just continue to show them like we all know what we are looking at... LOL
Amir, when you are talking about desired angles of dispersion what frequency (range) are you refering to? And what level of attenuation does determine those angles? Is that minus 3 dB in reference to an on-axis response or some other level?
You must be a mind reader because I literally just asked for your opinions on more Gr Research products and *POOF* this video drops within the hour. Freaky.
Can someone help me with something that's been bothering me please. So I'm driving the RP600 though a reisong a10 tube amp. First I used the 8ohms outputs on the amp because the speakers are rated at 8ohms but the sound is quite thin, mids are too forward, bass not deep enough and the dynamics are a bit all over the place. I switched to the 4 ohm output and the sound is, I think , very good all as intended but at higher/highest volumes it gets distortions (muddy bass, blending on highs,lows etc.) . So, what should be the issues here?is the tube amp not powerful enough for 4ohms, even though at mid to high volumes is sounds great but if I push it more it gets distorted? On the 8ohms output I get more volume but it's sounds thin and undefined...thanks for the help
I’ve been a bit sceptical about GR Research’s ‘measurement over everything’ approach, particularly because he never auditions the final result. This article by Audio Science Review seems to suggest that GR Research may be actually right though ASR is also from the ‘measurement over everything’ school of audio thought. I’d be a lot more convinced if either of them actually listened to their results! If the original design of this Klipsch speaker was so bad, why did their customers buy them? Didn’t they compare them with others before buying them? At the time, they must have liked that boom and treble approach even though us oldies have known about this pitfall for decades. I think the choice of demo music can make a huge difference and I suspect Klipsch we’re aiming for the market enjoying a certain type of amplified pop music. You need to listen to accoustic music, in my case orchestras and choirs but it could just as easily be accoustic guitars or jazz, to properly judge a speaker’s ability. And I agree 100% with Emir that it is best to listen to the demo through only one speaker, ie no stereo which can disguise faults.
I agree. Acoustic instruments have a distinct sound and are easier to judge the quality through an audio system. Electronic amplified instruments are not a good way to evaluate a system.
That's part of what GR does. Is take in speakers and develop upgrades. His channel is loaded with such efforts. Like the ones he's done with the Klipsch.
Would have been interesting to me if you A/B's the tube connectors during the subjective listening test - actually, seems silly to me that you didn't A/B them during your listening Amir - I would have enjoyed hearing your thoughts about them, good, bad, nothing or otherwise. Course, giving this idea a bit more thought - lets be honest - if you would not be expecting a difference, and maybe that was a factor in your thoughts about testing them, then maybe the test, subjective or not would be biased as you always point out - that is - our expectations cloud what we think we hear.
Maybe EQ + special foam inside does what is intended. and/or bi amp with dsps. Is it constant that cone tweeters give very directional sound ? My liking is more inclined toward dome tweeter made from soft cloth like material. (in general)
Thanks for the review. Understand that some of us want to keep the system analog, no digital in the system. Digital people think that is crazy. I get all kinds of comments saying that digital is better, digital is more accurate, yada yada yada. But some of us don't like the sound of digital. We miss the fine cues digital does not capture. And we are allowed to have our opinion. And we are not crazy to have that opinion. In that case the revised crossover is the way to go.
Hi Emir. Love your technical analysis. I thought two possible future reviews might be very worthwhile for your Channel: 1. Requirement to "burn in" XO Poly Caps to achieve optimal performance, is this real or fiction? & 2. Do 0.01µF By Pass Capacitors fitted in parallel to a Tweeters XO Cap enhance sonic performance, real or snake oil? Hopefully you can consider these subjects.
@@pauldavies6037 It's not. These are the types that only judge "good sound" by measurements and graphs - not by listening. Then the other site members will jump in and bash a product without ever having heard it. Amir only listens to one speaker when giving his short and incomplete impressions. They will ban you from their site if you bring up subjective listening impressions. It happened to me on one of their threads. Take every "review" with a pound of salt.
rp 600 m ($400) + GR kit ($244) = $644 rp 600 m II $749 I would not go with either of above, there is a lot of competition in that price range, $750 gets you a good pair of speakers from Elac and others.
Elac is pretty well garbage compared to many others ( and yes I've owned em, boring speakers). For $750 the kef q350 gets the vote for me and will cost even less than that used.
@@sergeysmelnik if u like flat then that's for you, if you like detail, open and airy sizzlin highs then I'd look elsewhere, their bass is nothin exceptional either, just not for me, and I've had the ls50, new metas, revels, and the q350 gets my vote for best bang for the buck, the best bookshelf I've heard is the maxxed upgraded gr research xls encore, that's a fact, even over the $2500 revel performa m106, best for the money is the q350, digs deeper than even the encore, and midrange magic is there, and not bright like the ls50.
@@RanTausi against the rp-600m I can't say, I haven't heard those, but had a local friend who did and he traded them off pretty quickly and went with the xls encores, and eventually lsa signatures, so I can't compare those 2, but there won't be another elac in my place their a boring speaker in my opinion.
I did the mod on my rp-160m and the difference is huge. However, they are a tad base heavy with the mod, so I think I'm going to fine tune the tweeter filter.
Having done this mod I can certainly attest to the improvements that you are showing in your measurements. I hadn't seen testing on the reduced sensitivity and your results confirm my suspicions, but in listening I find that rather minor even with am 9 watt amp. You wouldn't have the issue of needing to drive them so hard if you had a pair. Your listening test however I find doesn't hold much value with only one speaker, the real benefit of this modification is fixing the phase issues and a really huge improvement in soundstage depth. Also you mentioned they are quite a bit heavier, a lot of that is actually due to the large aircore inductors. One other thing I thought was missing from your review was the notable increase in detail in the upper treble.
As much as I don't like Danny at GR Research because he is a member of "the church of the all mighty speaker cable", it's good to see that his speaker upgrade kits actually do make a appreciable difference and seem to be worth the money. Not so sure about his "tube connector" upgrades that eliminate metal bots on the speaker binding post, he seams to think that AC waveforms care about threads.
Try it before you judge it. If you can’t hear the difference, then don’t judge. I got great tinnitus so I miss the 10khz-15khz area, but I do hear enough to believe in good parts, does do a change. Cheap bubbles and Champange, there’s different.
proper EQ with calibration mic open the eyes (ears) to another world, makes you understand the effect of room size, materials, reflections, speaker placement, correct a lot of flaws, brings things closer to neutrality. The audio world is just bigger, with more detail, like nothing is missing, it is full, with more air, bass faster, etc. If you have a bad resonance in room or speaker you can kill it just like a feedback destroyer would (narrow parametric eq), and even if you miss that small part of music it makes the overall sound much better. EQ result is objectively better (when done well) and not wanting EQ is like a religious error. There is no "pure direct" way to beat proper EQ.
You say in the conclusion that to equalize the original speaker was a cheaper solution as equ is free but how far can we go with equ, how cheap a speaker we can buy to get a decent sound with equ correction ? Can a carefully chosen $100 speaker with equalization beat any $1000 on the market without equ ? Thanks for the great work as usual
I've been designing my own speakers for a number of years and I can absolutely guarantee that EQ will not give the same results (won't sound as good imo) as Danny's mods, and this is coming from someone who is more than a bit sceptical regarding some of those mods.
@@jalbrink got it, thanks. what about headphones and iem i guess they don't have this directivity constraint, how far can eq get us on headphones and iems ?
@@amanieux I'm not really an expert. So what I say is from what I understand about the matter. Anyone should feel free to correct me. Headphones should indeed suffer a lot less from directivity issues so they are in general easier to EQ. There are some limitation though. For example boosting the lower bass might introduce distortion (it's something I quite often see in headphone reviews on ASR). Also headphone measurements are known not to be the most reliable. As a general pointer: there are quite some speakers that show good directivity so good candidates for EQ. Kef R3 and LS50 Meta, Revel speakers from the performa3 and ultima2 line and the Elac DBR62 are some examples.
If you have never seen the upgrade kit being installed, how can you be sure the upgrade kit has been installed at all? And how do you know it has been done properly? Seems to me you should have added the filming of how the mod was made, especially if you have not done it yourself. Only then can you claim that you are comparing the box as intended by GR Research.
Measurements confirm what the company has shown. Both impedance and frequency response. That is good enough. If you don't agree, ask the company to send a modded version for me to re-test.
Amir great video - appreciate the time you take. Can you share what the 5 or so tracks you compare with are? I am sure its over on ASR some place but just for consolidation reasons, what are they?
I always start with the same few female tracks to check for tonality. I start with Clair Martin "Too Much In Love." The follow with Eva Cassidy's "Ain't no sunshine." And then Kristin Asbjornson's "I am on my way." Then I go into bass tracks. There is a list some place on ASR. But the first critical track is "Tripping with Nils Fram." Next is Terje Isungset's "Winter Songs." This last one is a speaker killer in the way it has deep, sub-bass right at the start. I should probably do a video on them. :)
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Sorry for stuck frame at the beginning. Bug in capture software. :(
Should have used an audioquest usb to capture. It would have filtered that.
@@idray986 Now that right there is really funny. :)
Nonsense, Amir! If you would've just processed your video on some PS Audio protected computers and used proper Audioquest USB and Ethernet cables, we wouldn't have seen this. Repent!
(jk jk jk, if it wasn't obvious)
@@idray986 Hehe power drop because he hasn’t bypassed ground.
You are a MACHINE! So glad to see these reviews coming in.
Ditto
This shows you try to be fair to GR Research , giving unbiased positive feedback points when it is due. Well done.
He doesn't 'try' to be fair, nor does he 'judge' - bar the subjective listening he just provides the scientific facts. It astounds me how many folk seem to scratch their head at 'unbiased' - sure he has plenty of negative things to say, why? because the audio industry has an INORDINATE amount of snake oil, much of which can be, AND NOW HAS been, unquestionably refuted by scientific analysis. The fact this man isn't met with absolute gratitude by audio enthusiasts is beyond astounding to me - literally the consumers themselves who are complete victims and being ripped off are doing the work of the sales people FOR them the way they jump up and down defending these unscrupulous buisness folk is one of the most bizzare things I have ever witnessed....
@@fwabble Hello fwabble. You're correct, but if you take in the depth & scale of snake oil, self interest & ignorance in this industry, then, as many wouldn't have the technical knowledge to refute what has just been presented, then you can't really blame anyone for adopting a skeptical attitude to all.
GR research remains assmad, and his audience of sheeple is ridiculous. I considered buying one of his open baffle kits, but when he can't take valid criticism, and refers to people who like to see measurements as "flat earthers", I'll spend my money somewhere else. Imagine calling people flat earthers while you're the one slinging snake oil.
Might be interested in Danny's last video, he apologized to Samir and wants to get back to trying to reach out to him personally.
@@fwabble I hear what you are saying and take it into account.
But music has soul, emotions a human trying to reach other people's heart, that's not just defined by numbers, that shit satisfies or scratches an itch deep within.
Numbers give you an indication of a speakers ability to translate that, but they are two different things, you don't hear the numbers, your hear/feel/smile or cry because of the ability of someone else to convey emotion with sound.
Or hell, maybe you're right and it is just numbers 🤷🏼♂️
Thanks for the review, was actually very curious how the mods really perform. It's striking how 1 guy can redesign the crossiver from a giant like Klipsch and solve their problems...
I think the design in Klipisch was intentional to get more sensitivity (they always like to brag about that).
Big bussiness …Profit over sound
Sensitivity + the "showroom sound". The "happy smile V curve" often grabs people's attention when they are selecting speakers. Budget speakers tend to suffer from this. I think manufacturers know their markets and target accordingly.
Could it be that speaker was meant to be used as surround channels and have little need for vocal range but more need to run on underpowered surround channel amplifier. If so, selling as bookshelf speaker set is deceiving.
Klipsch doesn't care about accuracy, they do what catches people's attention. In this case, elevated highs and lows. They make speakers to sell for profit, not to accurately reproduce sound.
Excellent review, very detailed, and its good to see the mod does balance things out.
Looking forward to a review of the RP-600M MkII with GR mod.
Great review well balanced and honest, and well done to GR.
GR research presents a compelling proposition. Modifications and improvements for speakers. Good to see it sort of worked out here. My dream speaker is the Gershman Avant Garde. But there are no measurements available anywhere. One day I will send it to you Amir while praying that it is good.
Danny will test it free , so IF you have speakers you wonder about ? i say send it . i have sent several some he suggested NOT doing anything ! said buy something better basically , but i got good data FREE ! & now i know
will Amir do that ? does he FIX speakers ? sell kits to do so ? or just test them ?
(W/ GR research, I paid for shipping both ways ) some he is improving yea some might end up more than just buying a better speaker BUT then THAT OTHER more $ speaker prob has issues !
seems most DO !
WTF ! theses speaker maker guys would never make it IF they made exotic cars! most cars CAN be left unmodded & work great !
at least if i pay for speaker upgrade i know it prob can't be better !
BTW some OTHER guys do upgrades too for the same model of speakers and most seem to be about same cost ! lots of good reviews for BOTH versions by owners ! so modding seems legit !
I mod my Ferrari and it gets better ! I make and sell better ,lighter parts for F430's, & 458 some purists hate me ! LOL 🤣
yea, I know about expectations of results bias .
I have extra unmodded of same speakers so i will do blind A-B tests as you suggested, done by my nephew so i have NO idea which is which !
I 'got stuck' with a pair of the original RP600Ms when two well-known pundits named it 'speaker of the year.' I no longer trust either of them to give me the time of day. I immediately disliked the 600Ms, and it grew.
Almost a year after they arrived, Amir did his tests, and it was very easy to see why I disrespected the RP600Ms. His test measurements lined up exactly with what I heard.
Much later, Danny proposed his mod, which I was almost ready to pounce on until I saw the cost: $244 on top of the pair of speakers I had paid only $460 for new. Looked to me like good money after bad, so I passed.
I began to lick my speaker wounds and start searching for a pair of speakers I might like better. Just about then, Amir released his glowing test of the Elac DBR62s, and they were for sale at a discounted price. Long story short, I loved the little Elacs. They evoked music as I remember it, in concerts and jazz clubs, and they had none of the annoying character of the Klipsch's.
So... the RP600Ms found a stall, face down in the storage room downstairs for over a year. I had been suffering along in my bedroom with an ancient pair of Advent 8 inchers from HiFi's Jurassic period. In hopes of improvement, I schlepped the 600Ms up two flights and listened. At quite low (bedroom) levels, they weren't so annoying anymore. Not audiophile stuff, but not annoying. I've since added a little sub.
I'll go back and look at Amir's old 600M review to see what he did for EQ. The bedroom amp, a Denon PMA600NE, has a tape loop -- just begging for a little DSP. Film at eleven...
Lemme guess... Stevie G was one of those reviewers?
@@ShortHandedNow You said it.
Steve's great
@@intenttoinjure SG never met a piece of audio gear he didn’t like.
Can you really trust someone who's probably lost a lot of his hearing ?
Also, I'm sure the other reviewer must be Zeos.
Excellent information presented clearly. So my takeaway is that since there wasn't a phase issue at the crossover point causing cancelation there, it would be just as easy to run the correction feature in REW on this speaker and generate a digital filter and run that filter in equalizerAPO, JRiver, miniDSP, BruteFIR or any other digital filter engine and get the improvement in frequency response. Adding the damping and I think you would have an improved result, as the high order crossover has better vertical off axis response. The low order crossover always destroys the vertical off axis response in speakers like this with the woofer and tweeter not coincident.
I have always struggled with what speaker imperfections are suitable for correction via EQ and what imperfections are not……..in any event that is what Amir said, so I guess that is the case
Another superb review Amir.
Danny from GR will not have to modify his product page to counter your review this time.
Its reassuring the mods measure well, GR takes a lot of bashing for offering mods. This review shows GR does know quite a bit about speaker design also they do it quite economically.
Nice review and very complimentery to Danny's own video where he then goes further with 4 more installments showing how to assemble and implement the upgrade. As keen followers of the GR-Research channel can atest, this is a very common issue with Klipsch (and B&W) speakers and the reason that owners send their speakers to Danny for upgrade / fixing. Interesting to see the more in depth analysis here
Danny will test it free , so IF you have speakers you wonder about ? i say send it . i have sent several some he suggested NOT doing anything ! said buy something better basically , but i got good data FREE ! & now i know
will Amir do that ? does he FIX speakers ? sell kits to do so ? or just test them ?
(W/ GR research, I paid for shipping both ways ) some he is improving yea some might end up more than just buying a better speaker BUT then THAT OTHER more $ speaker prob has issues !
seems most DO !
WTF ! theses speaker maker guys would never make it IF they made exotic cars! most cars CAN be left unmodded & work great !
at least if i pay for speaker upgrade i know it prob can't be better !
BTW some OTHER guys do upgrades too for the same model of speakers and most seem to be about same cost ! lots of good reviews for BOTH versions by owners ! so modding seems legit !
I mod my Ferrari and it gets better ! I make and sell better ,lighter parts for F430's, & 458 some purists hate me ! LOL 🤣
yea, I know about expectations of results bias .
I have extra unmodded of same speakers so i will do blind A-B tests as you suggested, done by my nephew so i have NO idea which is which !
@@jackdale9249 yes I know. I live in Germany so not so easy to send. I just developed new crossovers for my Linn Tukan and 5110’s as Atmos Surrounds for my home Theater, I didn’t get them as good as Danny would but they’re already better than original. Maybe I send one of the Tukans for evaluation and new upgrade kit
@@jackdale9249 I see Danny did an upgrade for the Klipsch Cornwall III, but the Cornwall IV I was supposed to have fixed some of those problems. I forget does he have an upgrade kit for the Cornwall IV, or is it just for the Cornwall III? Because I have the Cornwall IV for a few weeks now, and at times with the right music they sound great specially after adjusting the distance and angles--I should try raising the cables off the floor. D. oes he install his kits for you if you send him the speakers. They would be a beast to pack up and send to him--they were delivered by freight on a pallet. Alternatively I can just dismiss what he says about the "cheesy" parts (probably got the idea to use that word because most of them are yellow) and other things like bracing and padding affecting the sound and just enjoy them. I could even rationalize it by saying maybe the design just works with those parts and the lack of racing is part of the sound enhancement and resonance for vocals, not distortion. Just as they used to say that that people thought vinyl sounded better because they were used to the distortion. I think it was more than that. It seems to me on some music transfer to digital just does not capture everything, such as the soundtrack to The Good, the Bad and the Ugly, even the remastered versions. Whatever it was, the horn music just sounded better on the vinyl, even though in the 80s I was listening to it on moderate equipment but with mid range horn speakers.
Amir, Excellent work. Keep it up. Much appreciated.
With your earlier review of the LGK, Danny would have called you a "flat earther," but I think he will be pleased with your assessment of this mod
Thank you for the review. I appreciate the work you put in and reporting your findings to the TH-cam community.
Very kind of you Kris.
Danny gets a little out there on his speaker cable and connector opinions, but he is very talented at cabinet and crossover design, modification and frequency response. Great to see this objective review of his work.
Danny's cable BS puts me off his talented speaker mods. There was no need to con customers into buying power and speaker cables that do nothing other than take their hard earned money. Then he has the gall to claim he can take a DBT on his power cables and pass them every time yet he never has done it and never will. he knows He's full of BS. People like this deserve to go flip burgers.
@@davidlong1786 To be fair there are thousands of speaker cable companies though, several of them are extremely successful at selling multi-thousand $$ cables like Cardas. At the end of the day Danny is just a small businessman trying to turn a profit and lots of people will buy expensive cables just for the bling, placebo effect, or just to match his speakers with his cables, just because.
Except for the fact that he ruined the wharfedale lintons with his crossover "upgrade"
@@stonecoldcustoms And that is supposed to make him being yet another snake oil salesman okay? What kind of fucked up logic is this??? "Oh everybody else is stealing at WalMart so I might as well too, just because." Remind me never to trust YOU for anything.
@@stonecoldcustoms He sells power cables. How is that related to speakers?
Another very fair, informative and well explained review. I can't wait to play the part about repeating the same music over and over again when testing to the Mrs., who continually asks me if the tracks I listen to (often) while checking something out, are "my favorite songs" 😁
Back in 2006 I demoed the current top o' the line Klipsches very much like these Klipsches in the video, B+W's and... Revel M22's. In addition to being 1/2 price the Revel's stole my heart. Still have them and love them. :)
These are the mass market Klipsch out of Indianapolis/ China. The REAL DEAL are the Heritage Line ..still hand made in Hope Arkansas since the early 50s. Absolutely nothing in common with this big box stuff. I was disappointed they put the Klipsch name on them, but understand it’s a business and the play on the name.
Nothing about this is “top of the line” for Klipsch, it is “top of the Best Buy line”
Thanks Amir! I hope GR will learn to appreciate your professionalism. Interesting, which one is better? The upgraded model or the new Klipsch version?
I haven't tested the new one. From what I have seen though, it has elevated highs so still needs a filter/EQ.
Watch Danny's last video, he apologized for getting a little cheaky and even calling names.
Said he is going to reach out to Samir and see if the different camps can be civil and learn from each other.
That is nice. Better late than never.
Finally we have a link for the endless cries of 'did anyone compare the mod with the stock speaker ?' Thanks for that.
So glad to see we can have a positive interaction as well! Thanks for the effort and review.
Klipsch have a basic sound. I find it interesting when people react to it as if that was not known! They shoot for sis boom. And the results were as expected! I would say if you axidently bought a pair, Danny is the way to go. But why start from scratch when for the total out of pocket an existing good end result alternative is available.
Do you ever get the feeling that Klipsch just slapped together a speaker with parts laying around and later Danny is sent a pair to design the network for them? Frankly, I don't know which is the better deal for Gr Research, acting as a paid consultant to Klipsch or selling the kits? He seems to modify a lot of Klipsch products.
@@mortlach186 I doubt they were just laying around, but slapped together? Yep! Danny proves that! Klipsch delivered another speaker with the intentional Klipsch sis boom. Tons of people buy them and love it! A few might be disappointed and find someone like GR to help them. While I appreciate Danny's efforts to correct the typical bad design of mass produced retail speakers. I'm more along the lines of why bother? Why not just get good ones from the beginning? But obviously names sell. I may not agree with all of Danny's approaches. But I applaud his intentions and efforts! As I do Amirm's.
@@glenncurry3041 I was taking poetic license (the parts laying around), but Danny gets a lot (A LOT!) of Klipsch in for work. It just seems easier for the factory put out another poorly designed speaker, again and again, that impresses the uninitiated, then realize the errors of their way and look for someone like GR to make them listenable. And they have two or three more Klipsch in the queue for a redesign and kit for their networks. That was a month ago. Has Klipsch released any new speakers for GR to correct this month? You know I knew nothing about Gr Research until just by chance I saw him next to a pair of ATC 19"s to the right of a youtube page with the title "Finally! A speaker Danny likes?" I clicked on it and that was my first experience which then led to watching several of his videos. The ATC'19's are I think the only video of his that he doesn't redesign the cross-over, just replace the caps and some resistors with the damping material and his preferred connectors that I still, not so much have an issue with their efficacy, but the limitations on switching cables. I personally believe that Danny believes in the products he sells and that's fine with me. Now if I can find someone to do the mods for me or at least have him redo the networks and cut the damping material. I live in a condo now and really don't like doing this kind of stuff anymore. P S, I have basically a Park tool repair shop for my bikes and I now have a shop do any required work on them. Know anyone who wants to buy a few thousand bucks worth of tools? Willing do bargain.
@@mortlach186 You might enjoy checking back on some of Danny's other vids. He caused quite the stir in the youtube audio community some months back discussing the state of reviews/ reviewers around. I've been watching him since he broke off from a different channel some years ago.
Danny will test it free , so IF you have speakers you wonder about ? i say send it . i have sent several some he suggested NOT doing anything ! said buy something better basically , but i got good data FREE ! & now i know
will Amir do that ? does he FIX speakers ? sell kits to do so ? or just test them ?
(W/ GR research, I paid for shipping both ways ) some he is improving yea some might end up more than just buying a better speaker BUT then THAT OTHER more $ speaker prob has issues !
seems most DO !
WTF ! theses speaker maker guys would never make it IF they made exotic cars! most cars CAN be left unmodded & work great !
at least if i pay for speaker upgrade i know it prob can't be better !
BTW some OTHER guys do upgrades too for the same model of speakers and most seem to be about same cost ! lots of good reviews for BOTH versions by owners ! so modding seems legit !
I mod my Ferrari and it gets better ! I make and sell better ,lighter parts for F430's, & 458 some purists hate me ! LOL 🤣
yea, I know about expectations of results bias .
I have extra unmodded of same speakers so i will do blind A-B tests as you suggested, done by my nephew so i have NO idea which is which !@@glenncurry3041
Good work from gr
Thanks for the unbiased review!
and no name calling! lol
just because you agree with it does not mean it is unbiased.
@@optimalforager You ASSume I agree?
Reminds me of why I started to build speakers myself. Had some trouble with my first pair of proper speakers I bought when I started working (after Univ. and military service) back in the late - 90s. Removed the plate with connection posts and found out that the internal wiring and the components of the filters were as cheap as they could be. The speakers wes a new pair of B&W CDM1 and I just upgraded the cables to a pair of Audioquests. Yesterday I watched Danny dissect the filters of a pair of new Focals - it seems to be even worse today (often masked by DSP/room compensation in today's setups). Nowadays I buy reputable active studio monitors (like my latests work computer setup, a pair of Genelec 8010a and RoomEqWiz) or I build myself, like my new subwoofer using the new Scan Speak 15" Ellipticor. "Control is better than trust" was repeated daily during my military service, still holds true in this context.
Sorry to break it to you, but if you open up yout Genelecs, you'd see a large serving of "Cheese" and their designs are heavily dependent on DSP. Dont get me wrong, Genelec makes great products, but not too dissimilar from what you described in the audio products you left behind.
Danny did nice update video where he apologizes for his response video.
When something is good, you say so, and when it's bad, you say so. That seems like the way it should be.
I can't get with the tube connector thing though. I guess I'm not ready. 😎
Just wire your speaker direct using copper cable and it'll be even better than using any connector xD
@@RennieAsh Words of truth. There’s no connector like no connector.
It is basically my only gripe with GR's mods: not the tubeconnectors per se but their PRICE and the fact you can't opt out of them, adding 60$ to every kit...
@@Bob.martenshow much for a high end binding post?
HE THINKS IT IS IMPORTANT yea a bit exploitive $ wise but you pay for better ( sorry NOT all capos ) does it help ? @@Bob.martens
My grandfather used to always say, "there is nothing more useless than those who create only criticism." Glad he is proven right again.
I agree, and I really like the positives implied by this review. I bought a pair of 600Ms based upon "flowery" reviews and after this am very tempted to update with the GR Research mod - to get quality parts, good instruction, and demonstrable audible improvement. I got the 600Ms at a very reasonable price.
For context, my main speakers are Bozak B-305s that are over 60 years old and are soo large as to be practically infinite baffle. I got them from my dad who had much more musical knowledge than me. As rear room/surround speakers I have Klipsch two RF-3-2s and the two Klipsch 600Ms. I have a significant background in DSP and acoustics. When I have time I try to critically listen from mono to stereo, and to at times what appears to be multi-channel cacophony, unless directed well by multi-channel formats such as for movies.
Otherwise, as others have noted, I would very much appreciate additional videos on the improvement of speaker measurements and sound by the placement of equalization hardware and software. I realize that these correction techniques are different, one is passive in the speaker and the other involves external power in the path; and the laws of physics can't be broken among the speaker and amplification.
As noted in a previous. comment, in, time, a low-priced "real-time" ie introducing no audible signal delays, wall powered equalizer placed between the amplifier and speaker may provide great options for individual speaker response correction. Can it play well, with receiver-hosted "room equalization: software. I'm totally ignorant of multiple speaker correction options that can work with/without additional room correction options.
As always, I appreciate your reviews and content that enhances audiophile knowledge and enjoyment! Thank you.
very interesting review.... but considering the cost of the modification... is this modified version better than the new Klipsch RP-600M II ?
Nice work. I can see the value in this if you have these speakers and don't totally like the sound. Aesthetically they are pretty cool. Although if someone bought these I would imagine that they enjoy this sound..and nothing wrong with that,different strokes for different folks. And yes one could REW or EQ out the dips and valleys if they wanted while keeping the sensitivity the same, the MOD however also helps with the resonances (other than that mystery peak) and phase as well as some impedance dips. So I could see why someone that has owned these awhile and wanted a change would spend $250 for basically a new speaker. Having a more neutral frequency response is not everyone's cup of tea, but I think some people, especially younger, aren't sure what they are looking for or even know what they are missing when they buy these, reviewers said they were great 😃👍 You either love Klipsch sound or hate it, doesn't make you right or wrong, but it is cool to know that there are Mods out there that actually make a difference to the product. Videos like this are so valuable to the consumer.
Hey M W. I suspect a lot of the sales were generated on the back of glowing reviews. People are looking for recommendations. Steve Guttenberg said he was gobsmacked. This says it all.
you forgot time alignment no amount of EQ can solve that just like the Phase shift you mentioned.
This reviewer is full of bs(software EQ fix). Ahja we al got to start some where.
I have the RP-260Fs that I've been wanting to get his crossover for which I know will correct some things...problem is I think I'm done with the general sound signature of these drivers. I like them for some things but I just don't find them sweet for music.
I did the upgrade to the B&W CDM-1NT. It took me over 60 hours to build, stack, and squeeze these huge circuit boards in there. I owned two sets of these speakers at the time so was able to A-B them. The modded speakers had much deeper, richer sound. The original pair sounded like a tin can in comparison. I gave the original pair to my son because I wasn't going to go through all that again. I've since committed myself to only buying pro audio monitors in the future.
Very instructive review, thanks Amir!
Thankyou amir for offering an Olive branch. As an audiophile that was mentored by my late friend i see myself somewhere in between the science and design stage. My late friend got to a point where he over engineered his system and it became extremely precise and mechanical. There is a lot of truths which Danny mentions, but then there is the devil's advocate of what you do. Some things can't be measure but yet they do make a difference. However I would like to say thankyou once again as the arguing never stops in the real world, but you have chosen to do so. I really appreciate it. Cudos to you👍
Hopefully the bods in charge at Klipsch are watching this.
The "roundish hump" at 500hz is caused by the shunt capacitor in the woofer circuit.
I will see if I ever have time to change that and see.
why not just correct that frequency response with EQ?
That's what l have been saying foy YEARS
Thank you! Your measurements have made me completely sick to my stomach! No, please, not your work, not at all. I sickened by the unison with which EVERY reviewer 2-3 years ago loved these speakers as though they were God's gift to audiophiles! No one heard these deficiencies in these speakers. Thank goodness there are objective reviewers that are objective and truthful. Nice job!
I bought these, listened to parts of about 4 or 5 familiar songs that I put them back in the box and returned them the next day. First gen Andrew Jones Pioneers, Sony's current entry level bookshelf's, and a few different JBL models were all much better... It surprises me that Klipsch is so popular when what they make is so bad
Thank you for this prescient review, and thanks to the member who took the time to share his investment with the rest of us.
I have a pair of these speakers and even to my old ears I could hear some of the issues you outlined in your review. I was aware of the GR research mod kit but had been undecided whether I wanted to spend any more cash attempting to improve the situation, not to mention Danny's detour into la-la land regarding speaker cables! That didn't instill a lot of confidence! Listening to most of the comparisons between the modified and original speaker on TH-cam was inconclusive! I mean, TH-cam? Really?
Anyway, I'm now seriously considering wading into this project. Thank you again, Amir.
LOL.. yep.. old ears indeed
Do you have EQ/processing available? Spending the money on that might give similar results and other benefits?
namzarf I had the same opinion regarding Danny and his mod, I too found the TH-cam comparisons inconclusive. It's nice that Amir perfectly backs up what Danny claims his mod does. But I think I'm going to pass on the upgrade and buy a GR research speaker kit and get a pure GR research design.
Amir, in Danny’s curves of frequency response he overlayed the 2 individual driver response curves with the overall frequency speaker response. The frequency where the individual drivers crossed did not line up directly with the dip in the frequency response. I think he used this anomaly to say the 2 drivers where slightly out of phase at this point. Do you agree with this and if so how could this be corrected?
Thanks Amir. For most of the video I wanted to ask you if EQ would do the job without any new hardware. And in the last minute you answered that question (kind of). I will read the review on your website to learn more about that.
Great video. Can you demonstrate how to properly e.q the RP-600M's instead of having them upgraded? Demonstrations are very
informative. Thanks!
Did you mention that the efficiency has dropped from 90 to 85db with the modifications? Flattening to match the dip has lost some efficiency.
I have the original i added two rel t5s I’m blown away by this combo
I bought a pair of these this winter with the 10" sub as a thank-you gift for an old friend, including an Audiolab 8000A. Now I feel almost bad about it. On the other hand he has the set in his garage for when he works on his bike, and he's in audio heaven so what he does not know will not hurt him.
Between us, for a garage speaker you want a very wide dispersion speaker so you can move around and the sound won't change too much. But don't worry, I won't tell him this. :)
In the end, all that matters is if he is enjoying the music or movie. I feel sometimes we forget that.
Well done Amir.
I have to agree with Ritchie on this : EQ does not solve the problem of drivers being out of phase at the X-over point . His X-over redesign does solve that .
There made in china plus they are meant to be surround speakers for home theater and they need a sub woofer ,one has to have the complete set to really hear what they can do , but i do like the works of Paul Klipsch when he crafted speaker enclosures for ElectroVoice saying that I had to recraft a set of Aristocrat and gave them a more of a modern look as far as I am concerned EV is still on top for theater and live performances . I use the EV speaker 12 TRXB 16 ohm speaker from 1955 and they still work to this day filling my life with great sounding speakers also i use a Altec University mustangs as well , Altec made really good speakers back in the day they where very competitive to the EV Wolverine you can run any kind of speaker in the Aristocrat , i got plans from EV then used that to build a bran new enclosure , back in the day those speakers where also sold as a kit , was the start for me to recraft the Aristocrat , i also recrafted a set of Sentry 2 speakers and i stacked them with the aristocrats on top and each one is properly placed in my room so the entire room is flooded with great sound , I am the Speaker Doctor of Canada .
Now Danny will be confused. Should he mention you and this positive test? Or is he scared that people also might look at previous tests...
Danny won't be confused. Amir does not listen as an audiophile. He tests in ways that audiophiles do not listen. NEVER listen to someone's recommendations of one who does not listen to speakers in a system. BTW, Danny may be a bit elitist, but he did intellectually demolish Amir's bench test (which he called a review) of his X-ls speakers.
@@EnemyofCredulity I've watched both of their videos and neither mentions listening to music...
@@EnemyofCredulity
Because "audiophiles" have extra sensory perception❤️
@@bbfrid88 There is more than one video that Danny has, so will have to be more specific. The one where Danny goes over Amirs bench test of the Encores, he does mention how people do not listen to music with one speaker at 96db.
@@EnemyofCredulity Unfortunately, I've seen a lot of the videos...never a mention of what the speakers sound like, unless they distort or there's some egregious problem. Just frequency response graphs, etc.
Great video! Thanks for your hard work. Danny should be proud too.
I wonder how this upgraded Klipsch would compare to e.g. an Emotiva B1+ which costs the same as the mod alone.
Good point. I just looked at my review of the B1+: www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/emotiva-airmotiv-b1-review-bookshelf-speaker.22366/. And it so close to how this speaker measures with the upgrade.
I own the B1+, certainly wouldn't want to pay more than double for similar performance lol
@@AudioScienceReview Interesting, I own several B1+ (Front and rear height speakers in my HT) and hadn't read your review yet. 👍
Wish you could do a video on effect of cheap vs expensive parts in a crossover.
That is on my todo list. Finding the time to experiment has been hard but hopefully I get to it at some point.
Fantastic work again! I just wonder what Klipsch were thinking designing this model. It's horrible! My 20 year old Dali 202 stanmounts measure way better although treble is a bit too hot. Danny did very good job fixing these speakers.
Some people like sparkling treble and loud bass. The drop in the midrange helps "accomplish" this. With this design many times, a vocalist will seem to drop out of the mix.
The Rectilinear III was designed this way. The Pozo Seco Singers female vocalist would seem to disappear.
Seems a little unfair to call it lucky the revised design worked. One would expect that any competent designer to test what range the drivers can do before distortion before designing the new crossover. That aside, seems a very fair review and thanks for calling out BS in the industry.
Great review. If this is your olive branch I'm all in. Let's go out for lunch. Some feta and kalamata olives.
I am interested to see how Danny responds to this because he was basically saying you are not fit to review audio equipment and specifically his gear...
Good stuff as usual
Seems like it might be best to delete the passive x-over entirely. How about using a cheap 55 volt amp to bi-amp the box? ( assuming you want it in the first place) Maybe mount the amp on the speaker so no speaker cable expense? NO bad ideas in brain storming right?
Sure. You can always do a better job with active. Whether this platform is worth it, is something you can decide.
It would be interesting to see a review of the new RP600M V II .
Erin and New Record Day already did
@@FSXgta I didn't liked Ron's review
Thank you for the review Amir. I am curious though - why you decided to not use the upgraded binding posts? Was that not part of the kit cost? Seems a bit odd to me when you mention the cost of the entire kit, but then only test parts of it? It would have been cool had you tested each of the upgrades included in the kit individually e.g. measuring both with and without the No-Rez for instance to see exactly how much dampening it provides, as well as how much the new crossover helped.
Also, are you considering accepting Danny's invitation to go visit him in Texas? I think it would be cool to show a lot of people here who throw salt, that just because two people disagree - that doesn't mean you can't brake bread and listen to music together.
Company says the binding posts don't measure any different. I do not have the mating side in my measurement stand so went with the standard binding post. For listening, I do have a tube connector but terminating it is a one shot deal with crimp and soldering. I am reserving the one I have for a formal test. If I terminate it for speaker testing, then I have to fork over $50 for another pair!
As to going to Texas, no, I don't have plans. Danny just says come over to eat BBQ and listen to music. I love to eat BBQ but don't want to spend thousand dollar plus to fly there and back. :) He could entice me to go there by conducting the blind test of cables he promised us last year. If he passes that, then I would definitely go there to verify. Otherwise, going to listen to someone's system is not anything that I want to do. If I lived close to him, sure, I would go regardless but that is not the case.
@@AudioScienceReview Amir, I’ve gained a lot of respect for you in the few days since I’ve discovered your work, actually through Danny. As a scientist and engineer working in the audio and music world myself, I appreciate your thorough coverage of the data and the intelligence you have collected, as well as keeping the hubris toned down, which a lot of audiophiles seem to have trouble doing 🙂
@@AudioScienceReview lol, well I guess that means no BBQ for you then, Amir! 😭 Hehe. I can't imagine any of these self-proclaimed audio experts ever submitting to a true blind test on cables. Deep down they know they'd never pass the test! 😆
Keep up the good work! ☺️
Keep these guys honest Amir! (-:
You use EQ. (EQ fixes nothing according to the honest Audiophile in his rant) so why use it? Or does the honest audiophile need some re-education
I bought the GR Research upgrade for the Dynaudio Special 40 speakers and the difference was astonishing.
Nice review. Thanks! Subscribed.
I would like to see a video where Amir takes an inexpensive DSP and shows how to use it to improve a speaker's sound. Is there a cheap box out there that I can use to do this? Where is the box DSP box connected? The output from the source? The output of the preamp (if you have one)? The output of the amp?
Depends. Sometimes the source, like a computer or an RME ADI-2 DAC, the MiniDSP sources, will let you EQ at the source. Otherwise, like with a record player or a tape deck, the best place would be between preamp and power amp. Something like a MiniDSP processor, or a Behringer ultravurve would do the job well there. If you don't have a preamp that will work that way, then I would put it between the source and the receiver, integrated amp, or whatever you are using.
Easiest way is going to be with software and a computer, tablet, or phone as source. There is a lot of i fo about this on Amir's website.
I do it all the time with software DSP. Hardware version would be the same. I have tested a number of hardware DSP products. A product like Minidsp Flex takes digital input and outputs analog with excellent built-in DAC, solving the concern you have. Please see: www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/minidsp-flex-review-audio-dsp.30804/
@@AudioScienceReview Thank you, Amir. I appreciate all you do for this hobby.
Why drop more money into a cheap speaker that you prob bought as an open box pair on Black Friday?
Certainly not something I have patience to do but for others, the answer may be different.
I suppose because it's a very nice looking speaker which would fit the asthetic of most living rooms.
@@Dan-pi6dx There goes any warranty and forget any resale value you hope to get out of it. And it's still a cheap speaker.
@@Roof_Pizza woudlny the resale be higher as it would be improved I'm sure there is a market for this
@@Roof_Pizza re: resale value - not necessarily. I look at a lot of stuff (speakers+ electronics) in the Denver used market and I would buy it used if it sounded good with my test cd. It's like what is the best coffee? - the one you like best is the best. PS Rooftop Pizza in Santa Fe is THE BEST. I'll die on that hill. :)
I'd say it is worthwhile to lose 3Db in an undesired gain region if it means getting an overall more coherent and listenable set of speakers. GR-Research certainly did a good job remediating this sad little speaker and making it into something worth owning. I'd probably still avoid them, because my ears have a poor relationship with Klipsch's tweeters, but I'd try listening to something that they modded, at least once.
Agreed.
Danny will test it free , so IF you have speakers you wonder about ? i say send it . i have sent several some he suggested NOT doing anything ! said buy something better basically , but i got good data FREE ! & now i know
will Amir do that ? does he FIX speakers ? sell kits to do so ? or just test them ?
(W/ GR research, I paid for shipping both ways ) some he is improving yea some might end up more than just buying a better speaker BUT then THAT OTHER more $ speaker prob has issues !
seems most DO !
WTF ! theses speaker maker guys would never make it IF they made exotic cars! most cars CAN be left unmodded & work great !
at least if i pay for speaker upgrade i know it prob can't be better !
BTW some OTHER guys do upgrades too for the same model of speakers and most seem to be about same cost ! lots of good reviews for BOTH versions by owners ! so modding seems legit !
I mod my Ferrari and it gets better ! I make and sell better ,lighter parts for F430's, & 458 some purists hate me ! LOL 🤣
yea, I know about expectations of results bias .
I have extra unmodded of same speakers so i will do blind A-B tests as you suggested, done by my nephew so i have NO idea which is which !
@@jackdale9249 The problem I have is that by the time I have enough spare cash lying around to consider having my KEF iQ90 towers tested and consider a crossover upgrade, I'd probably be better served tracking down and purchasing a set of KEF Reference 205/2 instead.
Hi I just bought a pair of rp 600 miis and I noticed right off the drop off . I was wondering if this mod would work with the miis as well . If so do you ship to spain?
Could you please review the RP-160M's? They've gone down to $195 right now, which is like 40% of the original price, makes me wonder if that makes them a deal at that price range
I wish someone would do a video explaining how to look at and read these graphs. No one ever has and just continue to show them like we all know what we are looking at... LOL
Erin at Erin's Audio Corner did a series of videos on the subject: th-cam.com/video/j_-b6A1xJaw/w-d-xo.html
I plan to do an in-depth video soon.
@@AudioScienceReview thank you.... I been waiting for a few years for someone to do one....
great to be taught by a master annalist.Wonder what eq devise is recommended.
Amir, when you are talking about desired angles of dispersion what frequency (range) are you refering to? And what level of attenuation does determine those angles? Is that minus 3 dB in reference to an on-axis response or some other level?
The graph starts at -6 dB (red line) and goes from there. I use that -6 dB and the beamwidth display then shows the angle.
You must be a mind reader because I literally just asked for your opinions on more Gr Research products and *POOF* this video drops within the hour. Freaky.
Can someone help me with something that's been bothering me please. So I'm driving the RP600 though a reisong a10 tube amp. First I used the 8ohms outputs on the amp because the speakers are rated at 8ohms but the sound is quite thin, mids are too forward, bass not deep enough and the dynamics are a bit all over the place. I switched to the 4 ohm output and the sound is, I think , very good all as intended but at higher/highest volumes it gets distortions (muddy bass, blending on highs,lows etc.) . So, what should be the issues here?is the tube amp not powerful enough for 4ohms, even though at mid to high volumes is sounds great but if I push it more it gets distorted? On the 8ohms output I get more volume but it's sounds thin and undefined...thanks for the help
I’ve been a bit sceptical about GR Research’s ‘measurement over everything’ approach, particularly because he never auditions the final result. This article by Audio Science Review seems to suggest that GR Research may be actually right though ASR is also from the ‘measurement over everything’ school of audio thought. I’d be a lot more convinced if either of them actually listened to their results!
If the original design of this Klipsch speaker was so bad, why did their customers buy them? Didn’t they compare them with others before buying them? At the time, they must have liked that boom and treble approach even though us oldies have known about this pitfall for decades.
I think the choice of demo music can make a huge difference and I suspect Klipsch we’re aiming for the market enjoying a certain type of amplified pop music. You need to listen to accoustic music, in my case orchestras and choirs but it could just as easily be accoustic guitars or jazz, to properly judge a speaker’s ability. And I agree 100% with Emir that it is best to listen to the demo through only one speaker, ie no stereo which can disguise faults.
I agree. Acoustic instruments have a distinct sound and are easier to judge the quality through an audio system. Electronic amplified instruments are not a good way to evaluate a system.
This makes me curious about what they could do for my own Big Box Store loudspeakers
That's part of what GR does. Is take in speakers and develop upgrades. His channel is loaded with such efforts. Like the ones he's done with the Klipsch.
I sent my speaker crossover into gr research and they mapped it out for free. I upgraded all the parts and wired point to point. Big improvement.
Yes, but it don't need fancy components crossover. I can make x4 cheaper than they do.
@@Satirawongwan yeah, you can leave it stock. Sounds better with better parts though. It's not a money thing.
Would have been interesting to me if you A/B's the tube connectors during the subjective listening test - actually, seems silly to me that you didn't A/B them during your listening Amir - I would have enjoyed hearing your thoughts about them, good, bad, nothing or otherwise. Course, giving this idea a bit more thought - lets be honest - if you would not be expecting a difference, and maybe that was a factor in your thoughts about testing them, then maybe the test, subjective or not would be biased as you always point out - that is - our expectations cloud what we think we hear.
Maybe EQ + special foam inside does what is intended. and/or bi amp with dsps. Is it constant that cone tweeters give very directional sound ? My liking is more inclined toward dome tweeter made from soft cloth like material. (in general)
Danny made a good video on the pro's & con's of different tweeter types. I learned a lot from it.
Thanks for the review. Understand that some of us want to keep the system analog, no digital in the system. Digital people think that is crazy. I get all kinds of comments saying that digital is better, digital is more accurate, yada yada yada. But some of us don't like the sound of digital. We miss the fine cues digital does not capture. And we are allowed to have our opinion. And we are not crazy to have that opinion. In that case the revised crossover is the way to go.
I mean surely your vinyl has finer cues and details than mere lossless digital rips.
Amir, do you like the Pink Panther show? My favorite episode is when he goes to Dracula's castle.
Obvious bots are obvious.
@@Mrch33ky I'm not a bot.
@@jasonkillsformomy Time for a Turing test. 😉
@@jimfarrell4635 Syntax error.
Do you know of any speakers under $300 that are fairly flat down to 40hz?
Hi Emir. Love your technical analysis. I thought two possible future reviews might be very worthwhile for your Channel: 1. Requirement to "burn in" XO Poly Caps to achieve optimal performance, is this real or fiction? & 2. Do 0.01µF By Pass Capacitors fitted in parallel to a Tweeters XO Cap enhance sonic performance, real or snake oil? Hopefully you can consider these subjects.
Russ Andrews UK greatly simplifies speakers like the spend or bc1... He has a kit for them on his site...
Have you tried measuring this speaker from far-field. Would the tweeter and woofer sum better?
Measurements are for 2 meter distance per CEA-2034. For this size speaker, integration should be good.
Have you another remedy of your recommended components regarding the same sonic anomalies in this speaker? If so, please inform the world.
Yes. Software equalization. See the original review: www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/klipsch-rp-600m-speaker-review.12138/
Good review improvements Danny made as usual in the right places .When is Amir going to his place and doing some listening?If he is truly open minded
We don't give a fuck about listening and personal cognitive bias.
We want objective data we can rely on.
This is what this industry need.
@@hypnoz7871 Hope thats a joke the end game is listening
@@pauldavies6037 It's not. These are the types that only judge "good sound" by measurements and graphs - not by listening. Then the other site members will jump in and bash a product without ever having heard it. Amir only listens to one speaker when giving his short and incomplete impressions. They will ban you from their site if you bring up subjective listening impressions. It happened to me on one of their threads. Take every "review" with a pound of salt.
rp 600 m ($400) + GR kit ($244) = $644
rp 600 m II $749
I would not go with either of above, there is a lot of competition in that price range, $750 gets you a good pair of speakers from Elac and others.
Elac is pretty well garbage compared to many others ( and yes I've owned em, boring speakers). For $750 the kef q350 gets the vote for me and will cost even less than that used.
@@JukeboxAlley Would you consider Elac unifi ub52 2.0 a better speaker then the RP600M ?
Elac doesn't exaggerate the highs. That doesnt make them garbage. It makes them the opposite
@@sergeysmelnik if u like flat then that's for you, if you like detail, open and airy sizzlin highs then I'd look elsewhere, their bass is nothin exceptional either, just not for me, and I've had the ls50, new metas, revels, and the q350 gets my vote for best bang for the buck, the best bookshelf I've heard is the maxxed upgraded gr research xls encore, that's a fact, even over the $2500 revel performa m106, best for the money is the q350, digs deeper than even the encore, and midrange magic is there, and not bright like the ls50.
@@RanTausi against the rp-600m I can't say, I haven't heard those, but had a local friend who did and he traded them off pretty quickly and went with the xls encores, and eventually lsa signatures, so I can't compare those 2, but there won't be another elac in my place their a boring speaker in my opinion.
I did the mod on my rp-160m and the difference is huge. However, they are a tad base heavy with the mod, so I think I'm going to fine tune the tweeter filter.
That can happen. Alternatively your room modes may be overwhelming and need to be dialed down.
Having done this mod I can certainly attest to the improvements that you are showing in your measurements. I hadn't seen testing on the reduced sensitivity and your results confirm my suspicions, but in listening I find that rather minor even with am 9 watt amp. You wouldn't have the issue of needing to drive them so hard if you had a pair. Your listening test however I find doesn't hold much value with only one speaker, the real benefit of this modification is fixing the phase issues and a really huge improvement in soundstage depth. Also you mentioned they are quite a bit heavier, a lot of that is actually due to the large aircore inductors. One other thing I thought was missing from your review was the notable increase in detail in the upper treble.
Do expensive Air Core Inductors sound any better than the Iron core ones ? do expensive resistors sound any better than cheaper ones ?
Yes....
Did Danny call Amir Moe after this review?
I give it the DUD award. Dead Ugly Device.
Schiitt makes a $150 4 band EQ buy it and save money, make all your speakers the way you want them. Besides its different song to song
Sorry dude, but only GR Research are qualified to evaluate GR Research.
They can when they are ready. They must first formulate the opinion that GR is never wrong.
"We investigated ourselves and found nothing wrong"
As much as I don't like Danny at GR Research because he is a member of "the church of the all mighty speaker cable", it's good to see that his speaker upgrade kits actually do make a appreciable difference and seem to be worth the money. Not so sure about his "tube connector" upgrades that eliminate metal bots on the speaker binding post, he seams to think that AC waveforms care about threads.
It cares about ferrous metal not threads.
Try it before you judge it. If you can’t hear the difference, then don’t judge. I got great tinnitus so I miss the 10khz-15khz area, but I do hear enough to believe in good parts, does do a change. Cheap bubbles and Champange, there’s different.
This is bull crap and misleading. This is not a review. This is a measurement test.
My curiosity is piqued: What are your test tracks ?
I post them on ASR Forum but don't quite remember where. Will post them again at some point.
@@AudioScienceReview Thank you!
proper EQ with calibration mic open the eyes (ears) to another world, makes you understand the effect of room size, materials, reflections, speaker placement, correct a lot of flaws, brings things closer to neutrality. The audio world is just bigger, with more detail, like nothing is missing, it is full, with more air, bass faster, etc. If you have a bad resonance in room or speaker you can kill it just like a feedback destroyer would (narrow parametric eq), and even if you miss that small part of music it makes the overall sound much better. EQ result is objectively better (when done well) and not wanting EQ is like a religious error. There is no "pure direct" way to beat proper EQ.
You say in the conclusion that to equalize the original speaker was a cheaper solution as equ is free but how far can we go with equ, how cheap a speaker we can buy to get a decent sound with equ correction ? Can a carefully chosen $100 speaker with equalization beat any $1000 on the market without equ ? Thanks for the great work as usual
I've been designing my own speakers for a number of years and I can absolutely guarantee that EQ will not give the same results (won't sound as good imo) as Danny's mods, and this is coming from someone who is more than a bit sceptical regarding some of those mods.
You can only EQ a speaker properly when it's directivity is good. You can't EQ directivity. You will fix one axis but mess up another.
@@jalbrink got it, thanks. what about headphones and iem i guess they don't have this directivity constraint, how far can eq get us on headphones and iems ?
@@amanieux I'm not really an expert. So what I say is from what I understand about the matter. Anyone should feel free to correct me. Headphones should indeed suffer a lot less from directivity issues so they are in general easier to EQ. There are some limitation though. For example boosting the lower bass might introduce distortion (it's something I quite often see in headphone reviews on ASR). Also headphone measurements are known not to be the most reliable. As a general pointer: there are quite some speakers that show good directivity so good candidates for EQ. Kef R3 and LS50 Meta, Revel speakers from the performa3 and ultima2 line and the Elac DBR62 are some examples.
@@amanieux EQ is far more effective in headphones/IEMs than speakers.
If you have never seen the upgrade kit being installed, how can you be sure the upgrade kit has been installed at all? And how do you know it has been done properly? Seems to me you should have added the filming of how the mod was made, especially if you have not done it yourself. Only then can you claim that you are comparing the box as intended by GR Research.
Measurements confirm what the company has shown. Both impedance and frequency response. That is good enough. If you don't agree, ask the company to send a modded version for me to re-test.
Amir great video - appreciate the time you take. Can you share what the 5 or so tracks you compare with are? I am sure its over on ASR some place but just for consolidation reasons, what are they?
I always start with the same few female tracks to check for tonality. I start with Clair Martin "Too Much In Love." The follow with Eva Cassidy's "Ain't no sunshine." And then Kristin Asbjornson's "I am on my way." Then I go into bass tracks. There is a list some place on ASR. But the first critical track is "Tripping with Nils Fram." Next is Terje Isungset's "Winter Songs." This last one is a speaker killer in the way it has deep, sub-bass right at the start. I should probably do a video on them. :)
@@AudioScienceReview awesome and yes do a vid! Thanks for the formalized list!
Klipsch can’t play 96 dB ?