Yes, I think we've reached the apex of tribalism and narrow self-interest, and need to center broad human flourishing and well-being. In this sense, Secular Humanism can be thought of as an ethical cult.
"What do you mean "we" white man?" I think the better question (more ethical cult and less culty cult) is "Do you think you need to be in an ethical cult?" For me the answer is yes, but I imagine, most people would be offended by the vernacular of the question. Why use a word that carries so much stigma? Why not say "Do you (we) need Ethical Worship?" Which is what your definition of cult means. This question clearly comes from the ivory tower of Meaning 2.0 which is why the marketing always falls so flat.
Exactly. I actually can't stand the "I've got every answer" confidence. When I'm absolutely sure of something....you can bet, I'm off 100% of the time.
A cult of individual critical thinking? The 5 Steps to Critical Thinking: What is critical thinking? In general, critical thinking refers to actively questioning statements rather than blindly accepting them. Critical thinking results in radical free will. 1. The critical thinker is flexible yet maintains an attitude of healthy skepticism. Critical thinkers are open to new information, ideas, and claims. They genuinely consider alternative explanations and possibilities. However, this open-mindedness is tempered by a healthy sense of skepticism (Hyman, 2007). The critical thinker consistently asks, “What evidence supports this claim?” 2. The critical thinker scrutinizes the evidence before drawing conclusions. Critical thinkers strive to weigh all the available evidence before arriving at conclusions. And, in evaluating evidence, critical thinkers distinguish between empirical evidence versus opinions based on feelings or personal experience. 3. The critical thinker can assume other perspectives. Critical thinkers are not imprisoned by their own points of view. Nor are they limited in their capacity to imagine life experiences and perspectives that are fundamentally different from their own. Rather, the critical thinker strives to understand and evaluate issues from many different angles. 4. The critical thinker is aware of biases and assumptions. In evaluating evidence and ideas, critical thinkers strive to identify the biases and assumptions that are inherent in any argument (Riggio & Halpern, 2006). Critical thinkers also try to identify and minimize the influence of their own biases. 5. The critical thinker engages in reflective thinking. Critical thinkers avoid knee-jerk responses. Instead, critical thinkers are reflective. Most complex issues are unlikely to have a simple solution. Therefore, critical thinkers resist the temptation to sidestep complexity by boiling an issue down to an either/or, yes/no kind of proposition. Instead, the critical thinker expects and accepts complexity (Halpern, 2007). Critical thinking is not a single skill, but rather a set of attitudes and thinking skills. As is true with any set of skills, you can get better at these skills with practice. In a nut shell, critical thinking is the active process of minimizing preconceptions and biases while evaluating evidence, determining the conclusions that can be reasonably be drawn from evidence, and considering alternative explanations for research findings or other phenomena. CRITICAL THINKING QUESTIONS >Why might other people want to discourage you from critical thinking? >In what situations is it probably most difficult or challenging for you to exercise critical thinking skills? Why? > What can you do or say to encourage others to use critical thinking in evaluating questionable claims or assertions?
There was never any need for cults or even worship to exist at all. Cults and worship are all about domesticating the ego by defanging your critical thinking faculties and inflating a part of the ego as "God". That's why every believers god feels so real to them and "knows" them so well. They've been weaponized against themselves. Cults and worship only exist because egotists, with more power and education than the masses, use their advantages to subjugate populations. There's no necessity in that.
Exactly... I disagree with this guys philosophy here. I don't follow anyone but my self and I don't havd social media or csre about what others think of me. I have hobbies and a will to learn more. To be kind to everyone and try to take down the oligarchs.
@@karlhungus1965 People are lazy…and it’s easier to consume without thinking too much! It’s like a bird mom who regurgitate the food in the baby’s mouth…the baby will only open the mouth…not even knowing if she just ate shit…but in this case you can understand cause it’s a baby…but on adults…? 🤤
As someone who is working with an online community to build an "ethical culture", I really appreciate this video. We are building a secular 12-step recovery community and many of us are survivors of religious trauma and/or culty cults. Thank you for this wonderful clarification and communication that there is hope - we can maintain our personal autonomy and have community. I've known this for some time now and still struggle with the words to explain to others. Much gratitude and appreciation for your willingness to share this.
I'm very aware of how much damage religion has caused throughout history and in my own life, so the idea of attempting to start new ones in an ethical way is something I'm still extremely cautious about. The entire problem I had with religion in my own life is blind faith in belief systems and hierarchies that create power imbalances. I prefer people acting as individuals joining together in acts of charity to better the planet, but I don't judge people who pursue concepts like faith.
There's this thing called 'the subconscious'. People always have a drive to worship something, whether they realize that or not, whether they do that passively or actively.
In this context it's the same feeling as being at a large concert, or going to a political rally, or a beach cleanup. If you grew up doing those things you'd be more likely to feel the need for " worship." Which I think is part of his point. Humans now are so disconnected that many, you perhaps, don't feel/recognize the need. Having that need isn't necessary to procreate so it's more and more likely as civilization goes along that the feeling/need isn't expressed phenotypically (hope I'm using that right) and eventually falls out of portions of the population which erodes one of the things that made humans humans. And all of this is to not put a good/evil value judgement on it, but to be aware that it's happening and chose a reaction. I'm always skeptical when I hear a proclamation that "all" humans should live like X, which isn't explicitly said here. The most probable future is one where many humans don't feel the need for worship and get on just fine. As Isaac Arthur said when asked which potential direction he thought humanity was headed in he responded "All of them."
I think this is false. If we are to have a separate word for ”cult”, “ideology”, and “religion”, then there must be subtle separate meanings for each. We can’t just take the root word and assign that meaning. We have to consider the context and connotations of each word according to the modern interpretation. Otherwise, we would be allowing racists to say “I am a white supremacist because I am proud of my race.” It really loses the context of what that word means to modern society. Therefore, (in my opinion) we cannot say “Everyone cults, the question is how do we cult ethically?” No, because some people cult. Some people follow religions. Some people follow ideology. Some people both cult and follow religion. Some people follow ideology and form cults out of it. But not “everyone cults”. Edit: word (‘have’ to ‘am a white supremacist’)
@@alisonschmitt9533 definitely, good point. It’s terrifying when you actually see what a cult does in real time. And there has to be a word that distinguishes that level of terror and manipulation from ‘religion’ or ‘organization’ or ‘ideology’.
Good points. Perhaps the point he makes is just a more provocative way of saying that we all have the innate needs that make people join cults, they just manifest in different forms. That doesn't mean that they are all equally dangerous, but that we should recognize and understand this instinct and seek to channel it in the best way possible.
@@bigthink there’s the idea out there that we all possess darkness within. And to repress/neglect it is to make it manifest in ways we can’t control. So you make a very good point. I guess what I’m trying to express is that we should be careful with how we use words. “Cult” has a very negative connotation, and it’s terrifying to see in action what a cult does to you or someone we love. If we compare cult with meditation and yoga, or going to church on Sundays, or watching sports, it’s a little disproportionate.
My understanding of the differences *Ideology:* Rigid system of values, dogma and rules explicitly articulated in some language or symbolism. Can be entirely atheistic. *Cult:* Group worship, and subjugation to a higher entity or idea, be it God, a guru or the destruction of lizard people. *Spirituality* Conscious mindful experience of meaning, profundity, enlightenment that feels like being a part of something bigger, could involve selflessness/thoughtlessness. *Religion:* Complex of value and spirituality, loosely understood and explored via narrative and ritual. Not necessarily social, but when it is, can provide cooperation without kinship. Does not necessaily involve worship of higher entities, but may involve some form of relationship with them. Religion often gets culty and ideological, so there's plenty of ammo for athiests, but it doesn't have to go that way. **EDIT** Question, obviously there isn't one single modern interpretation to rule them all, but what does *"the modern interpretation"* mean to you?
@@Morgan313 Well, I believe Nazi believed themselves to be ethical. Although, it is debatable Nazism is a cult. I can't think of anything else at the moment, but usually people use violence because they believe they are righteous.
And the real pleasure of power lying in it's abuse, with your followers practically turning into zombies worshipping you it explains much of how things play out.
@Jaden Almeida That is not how I understand what a cult is. A cult has more descriptions than you imply. A cult is not just a religion, there are differences between the two.
The United States is the biggest cult in the world. It is extremely abusive, and murders you if you try to leave. It is SO MASSIVE and pervasive, that people don't even know they're a part of it....they haven't ever lived a day outside of it.... Other nation states are very similar.
I think that ‘ethical’ and ‘cult’ are 2 words that do not belong together. You might say that they are mutually exclusive. I suppose it’s theoretically possible to have an ethical cult, but why call it that? It’s the worshipping part that negates the ethics of it and there is nothing ethical about surrendering your will in the way cults require. I was in a culty cult for over a decade. My high school hippie friends all started following a guru in the early 70s and I joined it, too, mostly out of peer pressure and probably because I was looking for a father figure since mine was absent. I got so into it I dropped out of college and joined the ashram, which was where the cultiest members went for the full experience of surrendering your life to the guru. It was more of an innocent time then in terms of cultural trends. The Beatles had a guru and it was a trendy thing to do for the counterculture movement. Many “holy men” from India found a great way to make a lot of money by coming here to gain followers. Basically, they were the Indian version of Joel Osteen. The religion/cult business is very lucrative and there was a huge country full of disaffected youth to exploit in America. Sri Chinmoy, Bagwan Shri Rajneesh, Guru Maharaj Ji the boy guru (he was mine), and many others did extremely well posing as gurus. They did have things to offer like meditation techniques, but the bottom line was the adoration. I wouldn’t exactly call it worship, but that is a distinction without much of a difference. In the ashram, we started each day singing a song about how the guru was everything to us. That message was constantly reinforced to fully brainwash you into the cult. There were good things I took away from those years, so I can’t say it was an entirely destructive experience, but I did miss out on a significant chunk of my formative years. The meditation discipline was a good thing to learn, but I could have done that without such a total commitment. Cults are not something we need. The exist because we are out of balance. They are a symptom of a greater dysfunction, and depending on the behavior of the leader, joining one can do great damage to your life. For some it has led to their death. In fact, in a cult you stop living your own life and follow the dictates of another. Your critical thinking is shut down and that’s not a good thing under any circumstances.
Brilliant video. Any cult that demeans the individual and expounds submission to an external authority, be that a priest, god, guru or political 'strongman is profoundly damaging to the individual's self worth and society as a whole. As a species we need cults that elevate humanity.
If you're a liberal, the only thing you care about is benefiting yourself at the expense of other people's pain, while patting yourself on the back for being a good person. This whole "elevate humanity" bullishit, is futile because... will you actually sacrifice your way of life? probably not.
There are various graphs regarding various forms of religion and irreligion and their correlations to mental health, and on average religious people report the best mental health and atheists report the worst. Atheists are by far more likely to commit suicide. Even if it's not true, religion simply works for human society. We have co-evolved with religious practices
*_1_* When there is love there is peace; wars end both. *_2_* Freedom is the opposite of slavery. *_3_* Scientific knowledge ends ignorance, superstition, and religion. *_4_* The first and last casualties of war are children. *_5_* When love is, the self is not. The self causes all wars and problems. *_6_* Without love life is meaningless. 💕 ☮ 🌎 🌌
i would join a cult that stands for helping all life flourish, reducing suffering>>increasing pleasure(pleasure will naturally come to a healthy individual who is whole, has basic needs met and not in pain and fear constantly) and discovering the truth of the universe
That's not a cult it's simply the path of least resistance. Being decent and rational will always keep you on the path even if you dont realize you are on it. You can do it alone right now and don't need outside leadership to find it only a freethinking, reasoning mind that is willing to examine all perspectives while reducing things down to their kernel of meaning
I knew the jazz reference for ethical cults was coming. The one thing I have to consider though, especially after having spent several years in BOTA and AMORC, this is sort of like bringing back things like the Greek mysteries or making some more open form of Masonry. The trouble though - this situation, ie. an ethical cult where you're responsible for your own spiritual work, is still something very few people would be able to participate in, maybe 5-10% of the population, because I think most people just want social networking, teach the kids values, CYO sports, all of the accoutrements of Roman Catholicism and other mainline Protestant denominations. Overall we're pretty basic critters, making copies of ourselves is the main goal, and almost everything revolves around that. True occult, mystic, neurohacking or psychonaut nerds are rare and likely always will be. This is where we probably need strong traditional cults like Roman Catholicism or even Eastern/Russian/etc. Orthodox but with an initiatic branch for the nerd herd who would have been alchemists or kabbalists back in the Renaissance.
Spiritual... Tribalism, even very strong tribalism, I'll go with that. Cult? No. Not even cultish about not being cultish. I don't know if you fully understand what it means to be apart of a cult.. True to the definition it is the extreme of extremes of manipulation, controls, and authoritarianism in the name of a religion. I think you're going to confuse a lot of people with this
Devotion, even very steadfast devotion to a discipline is not the same thing as the category of the division of a cult. Very misguided self assertions here. This is how languages lose meanings of words- the misuse and abuse of them.
@@KMR1776 Exactly. And even though I would argue that churches are ultimately just socially accepted cults, there is a reason they are defined separately from churches. Typically, it's the difference between forceful control, and subliminal ideological control. It baffles my mind that people repeating this trope are still accepted as "intellectuals". It's the same old ad hoc rationalization of human behavior, claiming it's because humans are sectarian and tribal by biological nature. Despite there being no foundation of data supporting that. Not to mention that the idea falls on its face when you think about how human civilization was even achieved in the first place. Not by competitive sectarianism, but by cooperation and communication. Wheal even uses the alpha-males trope, he just dresses it up in the form of "silverbacks". Cause, of course, you can't look TOO much like an incel when espousing your own superiority complex.
@ Kayla the nuance you lack is essentially answered in the first part of this video. You're socially conditioned to operate within a society that is itself a cult. Look up synonyms for cult. I bet you're in several mini (low influence) cults. A large defused cult. Societal cults within cults. Racial cults. Economic cults. Political cults. Class cults. You're an iceberg. The part below the surface is definitely in a cult(s). The part above the surface is arguing about the very definition of a cult and that the guy in the video is somehow less aware that you. Introspection is in order.
Yeah, this is such a classic projection we see in "intellectual" spaces. It's just another slight deviation from the tired trope: "humans are just tribal apes, sectarian in nature, just looking to the alphas to subjugate them." Despite the fact that EVERY human advancement came about through human cooperation and communication. This guy just likes to use the term 'silverbacks' instead of 'alpha males'. Doesn't wanna look too much like an incel.
@@lonniescott576 I left through sheer force of will while still in my teens. Yes, my parents stayed in. The question you would do better to ask is: which cult was it? It was the Jehovah’s Witnesses. And if you don’t think they are a cult, well, that’s the problem. Cults like the Jehovahs witnesses hide in plain sight and hold a fairly benign status in society. Which is why they can still successfully recruit members. The Mormons are also a cult. So is Scientology. So are a number of other religious sects that people don’t pay much attention to. In the case of the Jehovahs Witnesses they break up families, shun, cover up child sex abuse, enable domestic abuse, treat women as second class humans, encourage martyrdom by refusing blood transfusions, indoctrinate, and manipulate, isolate and traumatize children. I can go on if you wish... This video omits all of this kind of information about what cults actually do to their members. And to title it “why the world needs cults” is a slap in the face to everyone who has survived a cult and dealt with the lifelong trauma and psychological fallout - and to those who didn’t survive and chose suicide instead. Cults are a serious matter, not a theoretical mental exercise for academics.
@@alisonschmitt9533 Thanks for responding & I'm all too familiar my cousin & I don't speak til this day (which is now 23yrs) because he told me I was "Too Wordly" we were like brothers ....Thanks for responding & I really appreciate that & kudos to you!!! I know it's not easy!!
@@alisonschmitt9533 do you go therapy because u do have trauma I mean that respectfully To fight through something like that & with just will is Incredible but you are right most "religions " like that are most definitely Cults....but I wish you nothing but Peace & Prosperity
I've read his books and listened to his talks. He is an outdoorsman like myself and I get where he is coming from. I have not attended his programs, too much money for me. But yeah, he has a wealth of knowledge.
I don’t like the sound of “ethical cults.” I smell a rat. 😆 Here is the world over and over again: I have a vision (a passion) and I want to task others (with duties and responsibilities 🔱) to help build my vision, and to make me more $$💵$$. Domination (self-importance; self-deception; deception of others) and servitude. The same ball game repeating.
@@SolemnGW2 everyone loves Nazi's. Especially the ones that say they don't. They love fascism most of all. Do you see how your narrative ACTUALLY works yet? This is an egotistical childish argument at best.
I'm an Athiest since birth so the idea of being a member of a cult, let alone a mainstream religion is mystifying to me. The idea of outsourcing reason to someone else and have them do the intellectual heavy lifting in your life would leave me completely empty and devoid of purpose. The other humans are super strange.
As someone who's a bit of a religious studies nerd, but admittedly in no way an expert in the field, the 3rd category kind of makes me think about some Unitarian churches or even atheist "churches." This is just based on from what I've heard about them and I haven't physically been to either, so I'm hoping someone can tell me if they agree or disagree. Meanwhile, the part at the end that stuck out to me was the mention of the value of humility (while I think the main emphasis was on self-expression). Personally, I found humility to be one of the most important values that's been difficult to internalize in this current day and age, and the current model that I think about is interestingly where atheistic science, the Abrahamic God, and the Noble Truths in Buddhism philosophically coincide (I was about to go off on a tangent explaining this more just now, but realize how a wall of text could be off putting, lol).
The most spiritual person I have ever known was a reverend at Unity Church. They embrace anyone, from any religion. They quote Jesus and Buddha in the same sentence and encourage our individual connection to the devine. I don't attend church but if I ever did, that'll be the one I choose.
I'm agnostic and I wish I could have community in something like religion/church, but I can't subscribe to knowing the unknown. I like that the unknown exists though.
theres communities like that. like the satanic temple, churches of science, theology of liberation, burning man, and a few others. having community is important
I pity people who think you need to worship anything. It seems like they can't imagine a person who has no need or desire to worship fictional beings or inanimate objects. They literally cannot understand a person who lives their life without the need or desire to worship anything because they've been so entrenched in religious beliefs since they were babies. And, this guy has the nerve to suggest that we can't tell what's up or down when he obviously is disillusioned with such beliefs. I'd argue that he can't tell what's up or down because his vision is limited by the beliefs he holds.
while the things he says make sense, the naming couldn't be more misleading. One of the main aspects about cults is giving away power, this "ethical cult" just isn't a cult.
not everyone is like how he describes in the opening of this. Some of us don't give a shit and realize we make our own meaning out of this existence. Or not. lol
@hi For one, meaning is not something that can be created _ex nihilo_ by us - it's similar to progress: we can always move from A to B, and call it a change - but in order for this to be progress, B must be in some sense close to a B' that is not determined either by A or B. Likewise, we can say murdering somebody and wearing their skin may be 'meaningful' to some individual, but ultimately in a meaningless Universe this course of action is as good as any other physically possible; for another, this sort of indifferentism is very toxic, and not rarely leads to psychological distress - and when it doesn't, it _de facto_ turns life into a matter of pointlessly wasting time before your inexorable death
Third option is like: become your own guru (standard of judgment) and cooperate with other guru’s toward goal that one of the gurus said is the proper goal. This offer in its exact form was given to Adam and Eve by satan in garden Eden. Let yourself become your own gurus (be like God knowing good and bad) said satan and you will release your full potential. Ancient offer of rebellion.
I unequivocally disagree that "everyone worships". I reject worship in any and all forms. CULTS control behavior, information, thinking, and education. There's no such thing as an "ethical" cult because controlling people is unethical. This is by far the worst Big Think video I've seen. Unless... this is being used as an experiment in human behaviour, then in that case it might be brilliant???
Also, as an aide, I’m going to start with the big 3. One of which is an a, b, c. 1. Self 2. Money a. Power b. Prestige c. Possessions 3. Science (and/or technology)
Everyone worships something. Especially the ones who say they worship nothing - they have the most idols of them all. I understand that he's using the word "cult" quite loosely compared to what we typically associate it with in the West, but I don't think he's wrong about it
I love the concept of ethical cults. But I do think it's near impossible without a healthy level of consciousness and a lot of energy which goes in reform and restructure. Because in my experience, I tried embracing my individuality but due to the majority which had a combo of 1& 2 cults, I felt odd oned out.
I loved Wheal’s idealism, but he seems to presume that we, as humans, can achieve ethical ideals and behaviors on our own. For example, he concludes with the ideal of humility as a mutually shared value. While I love that idea, the question has to be asked: is humility natural for us as humans or is it, instead, a value-and behavior-which is taught and must be learned? From my own experience, humility is not natural to me or anyone else I know. It’s certainly not a cultural value, not in the US. If that were so, someone like Donald Trump would never enjoy so much political support. The only people I know who possess humility in a genuinely healthy way are those who were taught humility as a value, even a virtue. But WHO or WHAT today teaches humility as a value or a virtue? And that’s where the “traditional cult” can have something to offer (depending on which “traditional cult”). As a child, I was taught humility as a value, even a virtue at the Catholic schools I attended…and I was given beautiful and attractive examples of humility to imitate, both in the heroes revered at the schools (the saints whose lives we were taught to emulate) and the beautifully lived humility of my teachers who were Catholic sisters who also taught us kindness, compassion, patience and gentleness by how they treated us. However, humility wasn’t a value for my parents, who both opted out of the “traditional cult” even though they sent their children to Catholic schools. Attracted by the Catholic sisters who taught me, I became one. Now, forty years later (still a Catholic sister), I can honestly say that humility is a shared mutual value for us sisters who live Christian community with each other, but it’s also something we consciously choose to grow into and develop-even after all these years. It’s something we even ritualize in our prayer when, along with the rest of the Catholic Church around the world, our sister leaders wash the sisters’ feet every Holy Thursday when celebrating the Lord’s Supper. But again, this is what we received from the “traditional cult” and what we, as participants-turned-agents of the cult pass onto those with whom we pray and whom we serve. From my own lived experience, the “traditional cult” packages values such as humility in a number of ways, but these values take a while to become fully established behaviors and then character traits (=virtues). In my sixties, I’m still working on humility! So I would love to see Wheal explore his ideas through the lenses offered by the behavioral sciences rather than naively presuming that something like humility is native to us humans and that we can mutually share it just by willing it, without first becoming culturally formed in it. And who else-other than the traditional cult-has the “packaging” for this cultural formation? (And then how successful have the “traditional cults” of Western Civilization been historically with their “packaging”? Even with so much good “packaging,” we humans are experts at resistance and prefer our superiority and rank…unless we buy into the package and all its required inner work of ongoing growth, development and transformation.)
I’m intrigued. An ethical cult will not hinder independence or try to control or manipulate people if it’s encouraging sovereignty and freedom of mind. It’s just putting together like minded people to maybe live together in their own harmony worshiping their selves. I like it.
But that is what defines a cult, is the control aspect, otherwise it's simply a group or a club. Cults have levels of control over their members in behavior, information, thought, and education. An ethical cult is an oxymoron because controlling people is unethical.
Cult definition is “a system of religious veneration and devotion directed toward a particular figure or object.” The object or figure would be yourself, your soul, your higher self, etc.
@@JayBandersnatch exactly. And if you are an "intellectual", by the name of Jamie Wheal, that views the world through a lens of control more than anything else, then everything in the world just becomes some form of a cult to you. It's a relatively well dressed form of a superiority complex. But no superiority complex withstands any real depth of analysis.
With what i understood here i can say a few things. Read if interested. To wield enough success in life and in the unknown region beyond death, you have to accept simple fact of the next: you can have power over others same as others can have power over you at any unknown point in life. Therefore, the Concept of God isn’t exactly as people imagine, God can have power over you. Yes. But does that particularly mean you have no choice or power yourself, not at all. The reason behind why God created us (in case you believe or don’t believe) is *probably* to give us the same power of decision and choice to varying extents depending on time and circumstances. Cults on the other hand want you to submit to a person or figure of leadership without question but God (which is an unspecified phenomenon supposedly with no definite shape or form in our logic) doesn’t prevent or cause anything other than the starting point of the Universe to give us complete ability of choice according to what we have, know, and did previously and do now. The few exceptions of that statement is mentioned in religions in different ways with some maybe true and some maybe false. The majority of reasons why we can’t JUST do things is circumstances where some are unforeseen consequences of circumstances that could be older than our ancestors. Free thinking, atheism, breaking human laws, doesn’t change the simple fact of already present circumstances that affect our choices positively or negatively. Do we really need Cults? Or do we need a start and a simple guide of ethics and morals we recall as religion since humans on their own take a lot of time to figure out the simplest things correctly, so if something took decades of implementing and forming and added experience to add life examples to form a moral compass in an age of distraction, i do not see it as a bad thing at all. Free thinking could go both ways and mostly negative if no previous understanding of certain things is present. If we see that we “don’t need religion” and actually apply that, we’re pretty much going to decline since it ultimately leads to the concept of Nihilism without preserving both good and bad parts of the mindset. People focus on negativity a lot more than positive ideas. The negativity can be so heavy the simple fact of not being 100 percent sure about anything beyond general daily life disappears and ultimately people start heading for worse because the negativity is so heavy they call it “realism” without understanding the exaggeration they reach. On the other hand, God may exist and he may not hate us or love us. He may have wanted us to exist and know of him and connect with him and explore his creation. Maybe that’s all to it broken down to the simplest reasoning. Incentives of ethics aside, there are reasons always why we should or shouldn’t do things. Rebellion against real reasons isn’t exactly the wisest decision in many cases. We have choice and so do others but also we have outcomes and we will pay the price if the outcomes whither ours or others and whither they affect us badly and we will be seen as lucky if they affect us positively. Chaos theory studies this very idea of seemingly irrelevant matters connecting at least at one point to affect a completely different matter depending on the start point and circumstances. As we are the build ups of previous and maybe irrelevant decisions that do affect us to this very second. And so, the very thing we loath about life is the very thing we seek since we realise it. Choice. And Cults do not encourage choice often since the reason for cults is mostly control. while religion originally was supposed to form a moral compass and a form of appreciation to the God or Gods people believe in, a way to thank that, that you see as the reason for existence and a way you try to appreciate existence and it’s giver, not to follow a figure of leadership. It makes me sad when i see Megachurches, Bad priests, Bad types of Believers who may pretty much go against the God they claim to believe in… these people are why we may go as humans whither we believe or not towards worse times. Ethics and morals are definitely important whither God exists or not. In my case i believe in God, but God doesn’t hold my hands. God gave me choice, and what i do will present different choices for others, and same happened to me as the cycle goes. Religion liberated me from a completely different thing people forget about easily, i appreciate and promote peace, but i stand for what i believe in and so shall others with their varying beliefs that i and others should respect. Agreeableness isn’t the best option for succeeding in life since you never know if you’re agreeing to disagree or to follow someone’s plans and be a pawn believing it’s cheese player.
Worshipers are submissive authoritarians. Some of us doubt, question, reflect, and so learn to avoid doctrine and authority. You too can replace Truths with warranted assertions, can work at being a freethinker, a scientific humanist.
It depends upon the definition you are using for the word cult. If by cult you mean a controlling, manipulative group or organization, then that would obviously be bad. If you are simply referring to a religious group with one set of beliefs or another but allows freedom of thought otherwise and does not impede the ability of a person to live one's private life, then it can be a positive thing.
There really isn't much to comment on; this piece is almost entirely word salad. I do note though, that the man delivering it looks a lot like someone caught in the act of trying to create a (to use his term) culty cult for himself. He's already written the book, one of the most frequent ways to try to monetize your cultyness.
This is solid, but I disagree with using the word "cult" in "ethical cult". Call it community. I also appreciate Wheal saying that "everybody cults", we all do. When someone sees the end result of cult victims (the news reports or documentaries with gaunt people confessing how they were enslaved) they often judge them as freaks and say some version of "I'd never have let anyone manipulate me like that". Perhaps, people have different attachment styles and could be more open to manipulation and exploitation. However, everybody has had a friend or family member that they trusted against their better judgement and were used by them, to a lesser or larger extent. Cultish manipulation is a matter of degree.
Finding ethical ways of working with cognitive biases and tribal thinking is worthwhile; we can do better and should strive towards a future where we are less dogmatic. However, the phrase "ethical cult" really only serves to obfuscate what the word cult means. It feels like a silly linguistic game rather than a suggestion of what we actually do to address the problem.
Our highest self is insufficient. The most intelligent among us don't have the answers. Seeking the answers within won't lead to peace over life. Jesus came from a lineage of people. He called people to follow him and he helps us to be our highest and beat version of ourselves. That's why these three types will always pull people - because they all have pieces that are inherently attractive. The only difference is Jesus offers access to God without our effort. That's grace. Every other "cult" or worship is based on our efforts. He died for us to live by following him. Gives us peace. And if you're reading all of this - He died so you don't have to. You can follow him too. Repeat after me "Jesus, please save me from my wrong, I put my trust in you. I accept your freedom for my prison. Thank you for saving me!". You just started a relationship with Him. Find a group of Jesus followers near you and read try to be as loving as you can be. Love God. Love yourself. Love others.
This doesn't really answer the question why we should be in cults at all, except for the vague mention of "human nature" in the beginning. Realisation of personal potential and participation in a healthy group (as mentioned in the end) are brilliant things to strive for but why the need for a cult?
Because we need a cohesive communities to be build around the important topics. As traditional cults/religions gives you an sense of belonging and ease of mind (surrender to higher power or guru) - those ethical cults would give us sense of belonging and sense of power that you not fighting climate change alone for example. That's how I understand it.Maybe the word "cult" has too many pejorative connotations to be used.
Why worship anything? Why place the locus of creative realization outside of yourself if not just by habit? I can assure you that worshipping is a dead end.
Either i worship the lineage, or a person, or myself. But what about our creator, god, allah. I believe we need to worship our god, or as a muslim allah, he gave us existence, and he only deserves our worship.
Everyone DOES NOT worship. Worshipping indicates awe and adulation. Yes, these are human all too human attributes, but they're dangerous and NOT essential to living a good human life. I think sinking into the blessed feelings of a cult is more like a drug, a form of escape, for the weak and feeble-minded. I like the idea of an ethical cult, though. The world needs more people thinking in a proactive ecologically sound manner.
Jamie Wheal has been saying the same thing for decades now and it hasn't had any real impact because it's pure sophistry. He's made a nice life for himself though. Not a deep thinker in my estimation. There are many who have surpassed him and carried the torch forward.
I can honestly say none of these things have ever applied/appealed to me and I still find it strange that others feel this need to relinquish self-determination to any extent.
no. we do not need cults. the world does not need cults. the human being does not need cults. what is a cult? just that - something that needs to exist for the cult to exist. it exists as an entity separate from the individual through which it in actuality seeks to overtake and enrich/empower itself. that is the definition and gist of it. but then, if you benefit from being in one it is another can of worms, to use a phrase. just don't confuse the meaning of the term as properly comprehended/construed. ;
@@megenberg8 lol, I have to admit i only read the first part originally, but read the rest because of your reply. I interpreted the video differently to you I think. I maintain the video has a lot of truth in it and yes we do need ethical cults if you go by the logic of the video. The video is suggesting that cults of all kinds are part of human behaviour, suggesting that we don't need cults is like suggesting we don't need oxygen. Yes the narrow widely used mainstream application of the term conjours up images of men in goat masks in secret societies, but in reality the word cult is adjacent to the word culture, we're all apart and effected by it whether or not we want to be. to be totally apart from culture would cause a person serious and unbelievably troubling existential distress. So if we except this, what is the best way to manage this fundamental part of the human experience? we used to use religion, but that fell out of favour, then it became objects we could buy, and now it's just other people... the video is saying that if we stick with the other people model, the best way to do it is within each cult(ure) each individual is given agency so its not just one person calling the shots , but this is hard to pull off
@@PeterZeeke culture is a word without particular meaning other than as an indicator of some direct substantive quality, e.g., 'nature' 'civilized' 'strength' 'mind' 'intellect' and on and so on. culture is merely the word suggesting/signaling the particular subject being cited/described. it is wholly neutral unless one includes a case/situation in point. rather than seeking an identity/experience in culture (or in cults for that matter), the mature, honest, and wiser soul calls upon self-knowledge. herein one is able to find the direct and substantive experience whose reward is freedom in truth. just to mention here the beautiful quote of Keats: '.... truth is beauty and beauty is truth - that is all the truth you need to know and all the truth ye shall ever know'. and to these words i do wholeheartedly agree - yet i have to say that from my own personal perspective the Lord is also love. He is Beauty Love Truth - all together! : )) Yes!!
So basically, we're supposed to want spiritual communities that don't manipulate or exploit their members. Okay, sure, whatever- but why do we need to play this word salad game of "ethical cults"? This is just needless contrarianism and vagueness for the sake of trying to sound profound.
Christopher Hitchens, David Attenboro, Stephen Hawkins, listen to those who aren't cult leaders and live quite ethically without god. This guy should go study religion back to its beginning which is all mythology.
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Do you think we need "ethical cults"?
We have no need for oxymoron's to be real.
Yes, I think we've reached the apex of tribalism and narrow self-interest, and need to center broad human flourishing and well-being. In this sense, Secular Humanism can be thought of as an ethical cult.
No
"What do you mean "we" white man?"
I think the better question (more ethical cult and less culty cult) is "Do you think you need to be in an ethical cult?"
For me the answer is yes, but I imagine, most people would be offended by the vernacular of the question.
Why use a word that carries so much stigma? Why not say "Do you (we) need Ethical Worship?" Which is what your definition of cult means.
This question clearly comes from the ivory tower of Meaning 2.0 which is why the marketing always falls so flat.
If we call them "communities with a meaning and purpose" then YES
This dude has a calm soothing voice. Makes me want to join his cult.
Lol.
I love his diction and accent. I actually try to imitate it for speech improvement purposes.
Guy is a great speaker, story teller, etc. However he is basically selling selected ideas... not providing complete solutions.
Exactly. I actually can't stand the "I've got every answer" confidence. When I'm absolutely sure of something....you can bet, I'm off 100% of the time.
The simple solution. Become a free thinker, question everything and follow logic and reason. With that there would be absolutely no need of cults
A cult of individual critical thinking?
The 5 Steps to Critical Thinking:
What is critical thinking?
In general, critical thinking refers to actively questioning statements rather than blindly accepting them.
Critical thinking results in radical free will.
1. The critical thinker is flexible yet maintains an attitude of healthy skepticism.
Critical thinkers are open to new information, ideas, and claims. They genuinely consider alternative explanations and possibilities. However, this open-mindedness is tempered by a healthy sense of skepticism (Hyman, 2007).
The critical thinker consistently asks, “What evidence supports this claim?”
2. The critical thinker scrutinizes the evidence before drawing conclusions.
Critical thinkers strive to weigh all the available evidence before arriving at conclusions. And, in evaluating evidence, critical thinkers distinguish between empirical evidence versus opinions based on feelings or personal experience.
3. The critical thinker can assume other perspectives.
Critical thinkers are not imprisoned by their own points of view. Nor are they limited in their capacity to imagine life experiences and perspectives that are fundamentally different from their own. Rather, the critical thinker strives to understand and evaluate issues from many different angles.
4. The critical thinker is aware of biases and assumptions.
In evaluating evidence and ideas, critical thinkers strive to identify the biases and assumptions that are inherent in any argument (Riggio & Halpern, 2006). Critical thinkers also try to identify and minimize the influence of their own biases.
5. The critical thinker engages in reflective thinking.
Critical thinkers avoid knee-jerk responses. Instead, critical thinkers are reflective. Most complex issues are unlikely to have a simple solution. Therefore, critical thinkers resist the temptation to sidestep complexity by boiling an issue down to an either/or, yes/no kind of proposition. Instead, the critical thinker expects and accepts complexity (Halpern, 2007).
Critical thinking is not a single skill, but rather a set of attitudes and thinking skills. As is true with any set of skills, you can get better at these skills with practice.
In a nut shell, critical thinking is the active process of minimizing preconceptions and biases while evaluating evidence, determining the conclusions that can be reasonably be drawn from evidence, and considering alternative explanations for research findings or other phenomena.
CRITICAL THINKING QUESTIONS
>Why might other people want to discourage you from critical thinking?
>In what situations is it probably most difficult or challenging for you to exercise critical thinking skills? Why?
> What can you do or say to encourage others to use critical thinking in evaluating questionable claims or assertions?
@@The10thManRules What evidence supports this claim ?
This solution is like «Lets just print a lot of money»
There was never any need for cults or even worship to exist at all.
Cults and worship are all about domesticating the ego by defanging your critical thinking faculties and inflating a part of the ego as "God".
That's why every believers god feels so real to them and "knows" them so well. They've been weaponized against themselves.
Cults and worship only exist because egotists, with more power and education than the masses, use their advantages to subjugate populations. There's no necessity in that.
Exactly... I disagree with this guys philosophy here. I don't follow anyone but my self and I don't havd social media or csre about what others think of me. I have hobbies and a will to learn more. To be kind to everyone and try to take down the oligarchs.
“EVERYBODY IS A GURU!” From food to spirituality…everybody nowadays is kind of an expert…on something without even studying the matter…
Ridiculous…
It’s concerning that so many are willing to consume what’s being fed to them without question. Scary stuff.
@@karlhungus1965 Especially the videos posted on big thonk
@@karlhungus1965 People are lazy…and it’s easier to consume without thinking too much! It’s like a bird mom who regurgitate the food in the baby’s mouth…the baby will only open the mouth…not even knowing if she just ate shit…but in this case you can understand cause it’s a baby…but on adults…? 🤤
Yup, more recycling and regurgitating the same tired "HUMAN NATURE" trope, as a lazy justification for their egotistical projections.
As someone who is working with an online community to build an "ethical culture", I really appreciate this video.
We are building a secular 12-step recovery community and many of us are survivors of religious trauma and/or culty cults. Thank you for this wonderful clarification and communication that there is hope - we can maintain our personal autonomy and have community. I've known this for some time now and still struggle with the words to explain to others.
Much gratitude and appreciation for your willingness to share this.
congrats, that sounds cool. have you heard about “harm reduction” by dance safe, is a great framework alternative to 12 steps
Can I have the link?
💫 I don't feel the necessity to cult.
I'm autonomous.
Then you belong to the autonomy cult 💫
I was just thinking that. I'm perfectly happy not being a member of anything although I'm a member of a lot of things mostly because it's expedient.
I'm very aware of how much damage religion has caused throughout history and in my own life, so the idea of attempting to start new ones in an ethical way is something I'm still extremely cautious about. The entire problem I had with religion in my own life is blind faith in belief systems and hierarchies that create power imbalances. I prefer people acting as individuals joining together in acts of charity to better the planet, but I don't judge people who pursue concepts like faith.
That strange need for worship, I do not think I had one yet. It actually feels alien.
There's this thing called 'the subconscious'. People always have a drive to worship something, whether they realize that or not, whether they do that passively or actively.
@@thstroyur agreed
I find that hard to believe
In this context it's the same feeling as being at a large concert, or going to a political rally, or a beach cleanup. If you grew up doing those things you'd be more likely to feel the need for " worship."
Which I think is part of his point. Humans now are so disconnected that many, you perhaps, don't feel/recognize the need.
Having that need isn't necessary to procreate so it's more and more likely as civilization goes along that the feeling/need isn't expressed phenotypically (hope I'm using that right) and eventually falls out of portions of the population which erodes one of the things that made humans humans.
And all of this is to not put a good/evil value judgement on it, but to be aware that it's happening and chose a reaction.
I'm always skeptical when I hear a proclamation that "all" humans should live like X, which isn't explicitly said here. The most probable future is one where many humans don't feel the need for worship and get on just fine.
As Isaac Arthur said when asked which potential direction he thought humanity was headed in he responded "All of them."
@@christopherbaby3842 thank you for elegant explanation. It may indeed be true that humanity develops in all directions.
I think this is false. If we are to have a separate word for ”cult”, “ideology”, and “religion”, then there must be subtle separate meanings for each.
We can’t just take the root word and assign that meaning.
We have to consider the context and connotations of each word according to the modern interpretation.
Otherwise, we would be allowing racists to say “I am a white supremacist because I am proud of my race.”
It really loses the context of what that word means to modern society.
Therefore, (in my opinion) we cannot say “Everyone cults, the question is how do we cult ethically?”
No, because some people cult. Some people follow religions. Some people follow ideology. Some people both cult and follow religion. Some people follow ideology and form cults out of it.
But not “everyone cults”.
Edit: word (‘have’ to ‘am a white supremacist’)
Agreed. The difference between a cult and a religion is what happens when you try to leave.
@@alisonschmitt9533 definitely, good point. It’s terrifying when you actually see what a cult does in real time. And there has to be a word that distinguishes that level of terror and manipulation from ‘religion’ or ‘organization’ or ‘ideology’.
Good points. Perhaps the point he makes is just a more provocative way of saying that we all have the innate needs that make people join cults, they just manifest in different forms. That doesn't mean that they are all equally dangerous, but that we should recognize and understand this instinct and seek to channel it in the best way possible.
@@bigthink there’s the idea out there that we all possess darkness within. And to repress/neglect it is to make it manifest in ways we can’t control. So you make a very good point.
I guess what I’m trying to express is that we should be careful with how we use words.
“Cult” has a very negative connotation, and it’s terrifying to see in action what a cult does to you or someone we love. If we compare cult with meditation and yoga, or going to church on Sundays, or watching sports, it’s a little disproportionate.
My understanding of the differences
*Ideology:* Rigid system of values, dogma and rules explicitly articulated in some language or symbolism. Can be entirely atheistic.
*Cult:* Group worship, and subjugation to a higher entity or idea, be it God, a guru or the destruction of lizard people.
*Spirituality* Conscious mindful experience of meaning, profundity, enlightenment that feels like being a part of something bigger, could involve selflessness/thoughtlessness.
*Religion:* Complex of value and spirituality, loosely understood and explored via narrative and ritual. Not necessarily social, but when it is, can provide cooperation without kinship. Does not necessaily involve worship of higher entities, but may involve some form of relationship with them.
Religion often gets culty and ideological, so there's plenty of ammo for athiests, but it doesn't have to go that way.
**EDIT**
Question, obviously there isn't one single modern interpretation to rule them all, but what does *"the modern interpretation"* mean to you?
The One Ring analogy is more apt than he realizes. There is no ethical way to wield the power of a cult leader over people.
If people don't believe the cult leader is ethical, there would be no cult leader.
@@nomizomichani Name three ethical cult leaders.
@@Morgan313 Well, I believe Nazi believed themselves to be ethical. Although, it is debatable Nazism is a cult. I can't think of anything else at the moment, but usually people use violence because they believe they are righteous.
And the real pleasure of power lying in it's abuse, with your followers practically turning into zombies worshipping you it explains much of how things play out.
Stop looking for an "authority" to tell you how to live. Go outside.
And do what? Murder random passerbies?
I went outside but they weren't there.
@@GoggledAgog Keep going outside.
Cults are bad and should not be reinvented. For those who don't know, research BITE Model to distinguish if you or someone else is in a cult.
Thanks for the information!
Do you eat ? If yes then your in a cult… the word cult is what this video is explaining…
@Jaden Almeida
That is not how I understand what a cult is. A cult has more descriptions than you imply.
A cult is not just a religion, there are differences between the two.
@@feathars
What use is the word cult if just means people that eat?
Do you understand what the BITE Model is?
Ethical cult??? No. That’s like saying there can be a benevolent dictator. Or a loving devil.
The United States is the biggest cult in the world. It is extremely abusive, and murders you if you try to leave.
It is SO MASSIVE and pervasive, that people don't even know they're a part of it....they haven't ever lived a day outside of it....
Other nation states are very similar.
Eh, that's just semantics. Cult is far from the best choice of word for what he's describing
@@dontstealmydiamondsv3156 Precisely. OP’s outrage at the terminology is unmerited.
Absolutely correct.
Well, an emperor being born into a political system where he becomes the emperor can be benevolent. The emphasis here is on "can".
I think that ‘ethical’ and ‘cult’ are 2 words that do not belong together. You might say that they are mutually exclusive. I suppose it’s theoretically possible to have an ethical cult, but why call it that? It’s the worshipping part that negates the ethics of it and there is nothing ethical about surrendering your will in the way cults require. I was in a culty cult for over a decade. My high school hippie friends all started following a guru in the early 70s and I joined it, too, mostly out of peer pressure and probably because I was looking for a father figure since mine was absent. I got so into it I dropped out of college and joined the ashram, which was where the cultiest members went for the full experience of surrendering your life to the guru. It was more of an innocent time then in terms of cultural trends. The Beatles had a guru and it was a trendy thing to do for the counterculture movement. Many “holy men” from India found a great way to make a lot of money by coming here to gain followers. Basically, they were the Indian version of Joel Osteen. The religion/cult business is very lucrative and there was a huge country full of disaffected youth to exploit in America. Sri Chinmoy, Bagwan Shri Rajneesh, Guru Maharaj Ji the boy guru (he was mine), and many others did extremely well posing as gurus. They did have things to offer like meditation techniques, but the bottom line was the adoration. I wouldn’t exactly call it worship, but that is a distinction without much of a difference. In the ashram, we started each day singing a song about how the guru was everything to us. That message was constantly reinforced to fully brainwash you into the cult. There were good things I took away from those years, so I can’t say it was an entirely destructive experience, but I did miss out on a significant chunk of my formative years. The meditation discipline was a good thing to learn, but I could have done that without such a total commitment. Cults are not something we need. The exist because we are out of balance. They are a symptom of a greater dysfunction, and depending on the behavior of the leader, joining one can do great damage to your life. For some it has led to their death. In fact, in a cult you stop living your own life and follow the dictates of another. Your critical thinking is shut down and that’s not a good thing under any circumstances.
Well said.
It's called culture for a reason
Brilliant video. Any cult that demeans the individual and expounds submission to an external authority, be that a priest, god, guru or political 'strongman is profoundly damaging to the individual's self worth and society as a whole. As a species we need cults that elevate humanity.
If you're a liberal,
the only thing you care about is benefiting yourself at the expense of other people's pain,
while patting yourself on the back for being a good person.
This whole "elevate humanity" bullishit, is futile because...
will you actually sacrifice your way of life?
probably not.
There are various graphs regarding various forms of religion and irreligion and their correlations to mental health, and on average religious people report the best mental health and atheists report the worst. Atheists are by far more likely to commit suicide. Even if it's not true, religion simply works for human society. We have co-evolved with religious practices
People are brainwashed to believe their cult is an ethical one
*_1_* When there is love there is peace; wars end both.
*_2_* Freedom is the opposite of slavery.
*_3_* Scientific knowledge ends ignorance, superstition, and religion.
*_4_* The first and last casualties of war are children.
*_5_* When love is, the self is not. The self causes all wars and problems.
*_6_* Without love life is meaningless.
💕 ☮ 🌎 🌌
i would join a cult that stands for helping all life flourish, reducing suffering>>increasing pleasure(pleasure will naturally come to a healthy individual who is whole, has basic needs met and not in pain and fear constantly) and discovering the truth of the universe
Start with yourself, and healthy people around you.
An organized cult, no matter how good it sounds. Is almost? Or always, led by a narcissist.
I’m not a member of any. But Falung Gong, seems true in spirit.
Sounds like a weak minded cult.
That's not a cult it's simply the path of least resistance. Being decent and rational will always keep you on the path even if you dont realize you are on it. You can do it alone right now and don't need outside leadership to find it only a freethinking, reasoning mind that is willing to examine all perspectives while reducing things down to their kernel of meaning
“OMG! MY Religion is NOT Like THOSE Cults.” 🤣
Easier to scoff at all religions than actually proving they all wrong 🤣
I knew the jazz reference for ethical cults was coming. The one thing I have to consider though, especially after having spent several years in BOTA and AMORC, this is sort of like bringing back things like the Greek mysteries or making some more open form of Masonry. The trouble though - this situation, ie. an ethical cult where you're responsible for your own spiritual work, is still something very few people would be able to participate in, maybe 5-10% of the population, because I think most people just want social networking, teach the kids values, CYO sports, all of the accoutrements of Roman Catholicism and other mainline Protestant denominations. Overall we're pretty basic critters, making copies of ourselves is the main goal, and almost everything revolves around that. True occult, mystic, neurohacking or psychonaut nerds are rare and likely always will be. This is where we probably need strong traditional cults like Roman Catholicism or even Eastern/Russian/etc. Orthodox but with an initiatic branch for the nerd herd who would have been alchemists or kabbalists back in the Renaissance.
Spiritual... Tribalism, even very strong tribalism, I'll go with that.
Cult?
No. Not even cultish about not being cultish.
I don't know if you fully understand what it means to be apart of a cult.. True to the definition it is the extreme of extremes of manipulation, controls, and authoritarianism in the name of a religion.
I think you're going to confuse a lot of people with this
Devotion, even very steadfast devotion to a discipline is not the same thing as the category of the division of a cult.
Very misguided self assertions here.
This is how languages lose meanings of words- the misuse and abuse of them.
Self awareness: It’s -9,000
Denial: It’s over 9000
@@KMR1776 Exactly. And even though I would argue that churches are ultimately just socially accepted cults, there is a reason they are defined separately from churches. Typically, it's the difference between forceful control, and subliminal ideological control.
It baffles my mind that people repeating this trope are still accepted as "intellectuals". It's the same old ad hoc rationalization of human behavior, claiming it's because humans are sectarian and tribal by biological nature. Despite there being no foundation of data supporting that.
Not to mention that the idea falls on its face when you think about how human civilization was even achieved in the first place. Not by competitive sectarianism, but by cooperation and communication.
Wheal even uses the alpha-males trope, he just dresses it up in the form of "silverbacks". Cause, of course, you can't look TOO much like an incel when espousing your own superiority complex.
@@elijahmoon21able hey Mr 9,000 IQ, that's not an argument. Think harder, or run along with the other children.
@ Kayla the nuance you lack is essentially answered in the first part of this video. You're socially conditioned to operate within a society that is itself a cult. Look up synonyms for cult. I bet you're in several mini (low influence) cults.
A large defused cult. Societal cults within cults. Racial cults. Economic cults. Political cults. Class cults.
You're an iceberg. The part below the surface is definitely in a cult(s). The part above the surface is arguing about the very definition of a cult and that the guy in the video is somehow less aware that you.
Introspection is in order.
Not everyone worships
Yeah, this is such a classic projection we see in "intellectual" spaces. It's just another slight deviation from the tired trope: "humans are just tribal apes, sectarian in nature, just looking to the alphas to subjugate them."
Despite the fact that EVERY human advancement came about through human cooperation and communication.
This guy just likes to use the term 'silverbacks' instead of 'alpha males'. Doesn't wanna look too much like an incel.
Correction: not everyone is aware they worship
That is why I am an Absurdist.
As someone who was raised in a cult, I find this simplistic and full of omissions.
Honest question how did u leave & are your family still part of the cult
@@lonniescott576 I left through sheer force of will while still in my teens. Yes, my parents stayed in.
The question you would do better to ask is: which cult was it?
It was the Jehovah’s Witnesses.
And if you don’t think they are a cult, well, that’s the problem. Cults like the Jehovahs witnesses hide in plain sight and hold a fairly benign status in society. Which is why they can still successfully recruit members.
The Mormons are also a cult. So is Scientology. So are a number of other religious sects that people don’t pay much attention to.
In the case of the Jehovahs Witnesses they break up families, shun, cover up child sex abuse, enable domestic abuse, treat women as second class humans, encourage martyrdom by refusing blood transfusions, indoctrinate, and manipulate, isolate and traumatize children. I can go on if you wish...
This video omits all of this kind of information about what cults actually do to their members. And to title it “why the world needs cults” is a slap in the face to everyone who has survived a cult and dealt with the lifelong trauma and psychological fallout - and to those who didn’t survive and chose suicide instead.
Cults are a serious matter, not a theoretical mental exercise for academics.
@@alisonschmitt9533 Thanks for responding & I'm all too familiar my cousin & I don't speak til this day (which is now 23yrs) because he told me I was "Too Wordly" we were like brothers ....Thanks for responding & I really appreciate that & kudos to you!!! I know it's not easy!!
@@lonniescott576 ah I’m so sorry the jws got one of your family members. Maybe one day he will wake up ❤️
@@alisonschmitt9533 do you go therapy because u do have trauma I mean that respectfully To fight through something like that & with just will is Incredible but you are right most "religions " like that are most definitely Cults....but I wish you nothing but Peace & Prosperity
I've read his books and listened to his talks. He is an outdoorsman like myself and I get where he is coming from. I have not attended his programs, too much money for me. But yeah, he has a wealth of knowledge.
I refuse to join any club that would have me as a member.
-- Groucho Marx
I don’t like the sound of “ethical cults.” I smell a rat. 😆 Here is the world over and over again: I have a vision (a passion) and I want to task others (with duties and responsibilities 🔱) to help build my vision, and to make me more $$💵$$. Domination (self-importance; self-deception; deception of others) and servitude. The same ball game repeating.
amen
YES 🙋🏾♀️
“Those who worship don't know, and those who know don't worship.”
Lol people just says words in a rhythmic way and think they’re smart
Some church communities practice ethical cults, like Unity. Wayne Dyer used to say "beware of churches that exclude others, because we are one".
Everyone worships? No.
Guaranteed
Everyone worships something. Especially the ones who say they worship nothing - they have the most idols of them all.
@@SolemnGW2 everyone loves Nazi's. Especially the ones that say they don't. They love fascism most of all.
Do you see how your narrative ACTUALLY works yet? This is an egotistical childish argument at best.
Atheists worship the most dangerous cult of them all - Democracy and the nation-state.
You do, just because you don’t call it god doesn’t mean that you don’t worship.
I'm an Athiest since birth so the idea of being a member of a cult, let alone a mainstream religion is mystifying to me. The idea of outsourcing reason to someone else and have them do the intellectual heavy lifting in your life would leave me completely empty and devoid of purpose. The other humans are super strange.
I feel exactly the same way. You are not alone but you are rare.
As someone who's a bit of a religious studies nerd, but admittedly in no way an expert in the field, the 3rd category kind of makes me think about some Unitarian churches or even atheist "churches." This is just based on from what I've heard about them and I haven't physically been to either, so I'm hoping someone can tell me if they agree or disagree.
Meanwhile, the part at the end that stuck out to me was the mention of the value of humility (while I think the main emphasis was on self-expression). Personally, I found humility to be one of the most important values that's been difficult to internalize in this current day and age, and the current model that I think about is interestingly where atheistic science, the Abrahamic God, and the Noble Truths in Buddhism philosophically coincide (I was about to go off on a tangent explaining this more just now, but realize how a wall of text could be off putting, lol).
Honesty, loyalty, humility and patience are virtues of a hypocrite.
The most spiritual person I have ever known was a reverend at Unity Church. They embrace anyone, from any religion. They quote Jesus and Buddha in the same sentence and encourage our individual connection to the devine. I don't attend church but if I ever did, that'll be the one I choose.
We’re going to see the reemergence of the Orphic and Eleusinian mysteries just the modern versions of them and it’s going to be spectacular!
I'm agnostic and I wish I could have community in something like religion/church, but I can't subscribe to knowing the unknown. I like that the unknown exists though.
theres communities like that. like the satanic temple, churches of science, theology of liberation, burning man, and a few others. having community is important
I pity people who think you need to worship anything. It seems like they can't imagine a person who has no need or desire to worship fictional beings or inanimate objects. They literally cannot understand a person who lives their life without the need or desire to worship anything because they've been so entrenched in religious beliefs since they were babies. And, this guy has the nerve to suggest that we can't tell what's up or down when he obviously is disillusioned with such beliefs. I'd argue that he can't tell what's up or down because his vision is limited by the beliefs he holds.
Awesome dude! 👌 To reimagine an ethical culture, the existing culture needs to be let go of. Can’t have one without the other. Who is ready to let go?
while the things he says make sense, the naming couldn't be more misleading. One of the main aspects about cults is giving away power, this "ethical cult" just isn't a cult.
Exactly, hes talking about a community not a cult.
4:33 ethical cult = community worship
Ethical cults echo the idea of Ubermensch by Nietzsche
Or his father, Lucifer.
@@elijahmoon21able glad it isn't KKK
Bukowski didn't 'cult.' This is a sweeping statement.
No, not everyone "worships". Some of us just observe the world around us and read a lot.
not everyone is like how he describes in the opening of this. Some of us don't give a shit and realize we make our own meaning out of this existence. Or not. lol
"Some of us don't give a shit and realize we make our own meaning out of this existence" And those would be the wrong(est) ones
@hi For one, meaning is not something that can be created _ex nihilo_ by us - it's similar to progress: we can always move from A to B, and call it a change - but in order for this to be progress, B must be in some sense close to a B' that is not determined either by A or B. Likewise, we can say murdering somebody and wearing their skin may be 'meaningful' to some individual, but ultimately in a meaningless Universe this course of action is as good as any other physically possible; for another, this sort of indifferentism is very toxic, and not rarely leads to psychological distress - and when it doesn't, it _de facto_ turns life into a matter of pointlessly wasting time before your inexorable death
good that you don’t see the irony posting that in a comment section
will just say this, without embracing inner knowledge nothing works and is just illusions.
Third option is like: become your own guru (standard of judgment) and cooperate with other guru’s toward goal that one of the gurus said is the proper goal.
This offer in its exact form was given to Adam and Eve by satan in garden Eden. Let yourself become your own gurus (be like God knowing good and bad) said satan and you will release your full potential.
Ancient offer of rebellion.
I unequivocally disagree that "everyone worships". I reject worship in any and all forms. CULTS control behavior, information, thinking, and education. There's no such thing as an "ethical" cult because controlling people is unethical.
This is by far the worst Big Think video I've seen. Unless... this is being used as an experiment in human behaviour, then in that case it might be brilliant???
So you worship “non-worship”. You’re worshiping something. That’s a guarantee. Your self awareness isn’t high enough at this point to recognize it.
Also, as an aide, I’m going to start with the big 3. One of which is an a, b, c.
1. Self
2. Money
a. Power
b. Prestige
c. Possessions
3. Science (and/or technology)
@@elijahmoon21able Totally agree. Or perhaps he worships "science" or "being rational" or something. But it's worship all the same
@@elijahmoon21able define worship.
Everyone worships something. Especially the ones who say they worship nothing - they have the most idols of them all. I understand that he's using the word "cult" quite loosely compared to what we typically associate it with in the West, but I don't think he's wrong about it
Amazing video! It really matters, often, how a thing is said. This says it so very well!!
I love the concept of ethical cults. But I do think it's near impossible without a healthy level of consciousness and a lot of energy which goes in reform and restructure. Because in my experience, I tried embracing my individuality but due to the majority which had a combo of 1& 2 cults, I felt odd oned out.
Doesn't the notion of "the world's biggest thinkers" directly go against this message?
Rather than joining cults , I think we need some kind of a religious revival, that unifies our culturally polarized society.
I loved Wheal’s idealism, but he seems to presume that we, as humans, can achieve ethical ideals and behaviors on our own. For example, he concludes with the ideal of humility as a mutually shared value. While I love that idea, the question has to be asked: is humility natural for us as humans or is it, instead, a value-and behavior-which is taught and must be learned?
From my own experience, humility is not natural to me or anyone else I know. It’s certainly not a cultural value, not in the US. If that were so, someone like Donald Trump would never enjoy so much political support. The only people I know who possess humility in a genuinely healthy way are those who were taught humility as a value, even a virtue. But WHO or WHAT today teaches humility as a value or a virtue?
And that’s where the “traditional cult” can have something to offer (depending on which “traditional cult”). As a child, I was taught humility as a value, even a virtue at the Catholic schools I attended…and I was given beautiful and attractive examples of humility to imitate, both in the heroes revered at the schools (the saints whose lives we were taught to emulate) and the beautifully lived humility of my teachers who were Catholic sisters who also taught us kindness, compassion, patience and gentleness by how they treated us. However, humility wasn’t a value for my parents, who both opted out of the “traditional cult” even though they sent their children to Catholic schools. Attracted by the Catholic sisters who taught me, I became one. Now, forty years later (still a Catholic sister), I can honestly say that humility is a shared mutual value for us sisters who live Christian community with each other, but it’s also something we consciously choose to grow into and develop-even after all these years. It’s something we even ritualize in our prayer when, along with the rest of the Catholic Church around the world, our sister leaders wash the sisters’ feet every Holy Thursday when celebrating the Lord’s Supper. But again, this is what we received from the “traditional cult” and what we, as participants-turned-agents of the cult pass onto those with whom we pray and whom we serve.
From my own lived experience, the “traditional cult” packages values such as humility in a number of ways, but these values take a while to become fully established behaviors and then character traits (=virtues). In my sixties, I’m still working on humility! So I would love to see Wheal explore his ideas through the lenses offered by the behavioral sciences rather than naively presuming that something like humility is native to us humans and that we can mutually share it just by willing it, without first becoming culturally formed in it. And who else-other than the traditional cult-has the “packaging” for this cultural formation? (And then how successful have the “traditional cults” of Western Civilization been historically with their “packaging”? Even with so much good “packaging,” we humans are experts at resistance and prefer our superiority and rank…unless we buy into the package and all its required inner work of ongoing growth, development and transformation.)
I’m intrigued. An ethical cult will not hinder independence or try to control or manipulate people if it’s encouraging sovereignty and freedom of mind. It’s just putting together like minded people to maybe live together in their own harmony worshiping their selves. I like it.
Congrats. You’re luciferian .
But that is what defines a cult, is the control aspect, otherwise it's simply a group or a club. Cults have levels of control over their members in behavior, information, thought, and education. An ethical cult is an oxymoron because controlling people is unethical.
Cult definition is “a system of religious veneration and devotion directed toward a particular figure or object.” The object or figure would be yourself, your soul, your higher self, etc.
@@JayBandersnatch exactly. And if you are an "intellectual", by the name of Jamie Wheal, that views the world through a lens of control more than anything else, then everything in the world just becomes some form of a cult to you.
It's a relatively well dressed form of a superiority complex. But no superiority complex withstands any real depth of analysis.
With what i understood here i can say a few things. Read if interested.
To wield enough success in life and in the unknown region beyond death, you have to accept simple fact of the next: you can have power over others same as others can have power over you at any unknown point in life.
Therefore, the Concept of God isn’t exactly as people imagine, God can have power over you. Yes.
But does that particularly mean you have no choice or power yourself, not at all.
The reason behind why God created us (in case you believe or don’t believe) is *probably* to give us the same power of decision and choice to varying extents depending on time and circumstances.
Cults on the other hand want you to submit to a person or figure of leadership without question but God (which is an unspecified phenomenon supposedly with no definite shape or form in our logic) doesn’t prevent or cause anything other than the starting point of the Universe to give us complete ability of choice according to what we have, know, and did previously and do now. The few exceptions of that statement is mentioned in religions in different ways with some maybe true and some maybe false.
The majority of reasons why we can’t JUST do things is circumstances where some are unforeseen consequences of circumstances that could be older than our ancestors. Free thinking, atheism, breaking human laws, doesn’t change the simple fact of already present circumstances that affect our choices positively or negatively.
Do we really need Cults?
Or do we need a start and a simple guide of ethics and morals we recall as religion since humans on their own take a lot of time to figure out the simplest things correctly, so if something took decades of implementing and forming and added experience to add life examples to form a moral compass in an age of distraction, i do not see it as a bad thing at all.
Free thinking could go both ways and mostly negative if no previous understanding of certain things is present.
If we see that we “don’t need religion” and actually apply that, we’re pretty much going to decline since it ultimately leads to the concept of Nihilism without preserving both good and bad parts of the mindset. People focus on negativity a lot more than positive ideas. The negativity can be so heavy the simple fact of not being 100 percent sure about anything beyond general daily life disappears and ultimately people start heading for worse because the negativity is so heavy they call it “realism” without understanding the exaggeration they reach.
On the other hand, God may exist and he may not hate us or love us. He may have wanted us to exist and know of him and connect with him and explore his creation. Maybe that’s all to it broken down to the simplest reasoning. Incentives of ethics aside, there are reasons always why we should or shouldn’t do things. Rebellion against real reasons isn’t exactly the wisest decision in many cases.
We have choice and so do others but also we have outcomes and we will pay the price if the outcomes whither ours or others and whither they affect us badly and we will be seen as lucky if they affect us positively.
Chaos theory studies this very idea of seemingly irrelevant matters connecting at least at one point to affect a completely different matter depending on the start point and circumstances.
As we are the build ups of previous and maybe irrelevant decisions that do affect us to this very second. And so, the very thing we loath about life is the very thing we seek since we realise it. Choice.
And Cults do not encourage choice often since the reason for cults is mostly control.
while religion originally was supposed to form a moral compass and a form of appreciation to the God or Gods people believe in, a way to thank that, that you see as the reason for existence and a way you try to appreciate existence and it’s giver, not to follow a figure of leadership.
It makes me sad when i see Megachurches, Bad priests, Bad types of Believers who may pretty much go against the God they claim to believe in… these people are why we may go as humans whither we believe or not towards worse times. Ethics and morals are definitely important whither God exists or not. In my case i believe in God, but God doesn’t hold my hands. God gave me choice, and what i do will present different choices for others, and same happened to me as the cycle goes.
Religion liberated me from a completely different thing people forget about easily, i appreciate and promote peace, but i stand for what i believe in and so shall others with their varying beliefs that i and others should respect.
Agreeableness isn’t the best option for succeeding in life since you never know if you’re agreeing to disagree or to follow someone’s plans and be a pawn believing it’s cheese player.
Really great video. You make an excellent point about overcoming the fear of realizing our own potential.
It is just Neuroticism. No need to join a cult.
@@DouwedeJong do you struggle with that? How does one deal with neuroticism?
Soon the sequel: "Why the world needs charlatans"
I worship myself because I know I am one with divinity. I am God
My cult is built in the immortal God Emperor of the Imperium of Man... The Emperor protects!
Worshipers are submissive authoritarians. Some of us doubt, question, reflect, and so learn to avoid doctrine and authority. You too can replace Truths with warranted assertions, can work at being a freethinker, a scientific humanist.
As someone who was born, raised, and escaped from a cult: No. No it doesn't.
It depends upon the definition you are using for the word cult. If by cult you mean a controlling, manipulative group or organization, then that would obviously be bad. If you are simply referring to a religious group with one set of beliefs or another but allows freedom of thought otherwise and does not impede the ability of a person to live one's private life, then it can be a positive thing.
Isn't the basis of a cult some type of ideology that's not rooted in reality?
David Warsofsky, 32, can be King of Israel. He met Xi Jinping at Beijing Olympics...
There really isn't much to comment on; this piece is almost entirely word salad. I do note though, that the man delivering it looks a lot like someone caught in the act of trying to create a (to use his term) culty cult for himself. He's already written the book, one of the most frequent ways to try to monetize your cultyness.
This is solid, but I disagree with using the word "cult" in "ethical cult". Call it community. I also appreciate Wheal saying that "everybody cults", we all do. When someone sees the end result of cult victims (the news reports or documentaries with gaunt people confessing how they were enslaved) they often judge them as freaks and say some version of "I'd never have let anyone manipulate me like that". Perhaps, people have different attachment styles and could be more open to manipulation and exploitation. However, everybody has had a friend or family member that they trusted against their better judgement and were used by them, to a lesser or larger extent. Cultish manipulation is a matter of degree.
WOW I never looked at life like this. what would the person be who followed only him/herself?
People be hella scared of knowledge, innocent ignorance...
I'm all for it. Can we get it up and running before the few years of relative stability we have left? How?
No, I don't think we need ethical cults. I think we need to teach critical thinking in every year of high school, and have no team sports.
Seeking implies lack. Lacking self knowledge. Clearly not the way
Cults rule.
But they have to be unethical otherwise they`re no fun.
I’d like to know why is there so many problems
Finding ethical ways of working with cognitive biases and tribal thinking is worthwhile; we can do better and should strive towards a future where we are less dogmatic. However, the phrase "ethical cult" really only serves to obfuscate what the word cult means. It feels like a silly linguistic game rather than a suggestion of what we actually do to address the problem.
Our highest self is insufficient. The most intelligent among us don't have the answers. Seeking the answers within won't lead to peace over life. Jesus came from a lineage of people. He called people to follow him and he helps us to be our highest and beat version of ourselves. That's why these three types will always pull people - because they all have pieces that are inherently attractive. The only difference is Jesus offers access to God without our effort. That's grace. Every other "cult" or worship is based on our efforts. He died for us to live by following him. Gives us peace. And if you're reading all of this - He died so you don't have to. You can follow him too. Repeat after me "Jesus, please save me from my wrong, I put my trust in you. I accept your freedom for my prison. Thank you for saving me!". You just started a relationship with Him. Find a group of Jesus followers near you and read try to be as loving as you can be. Love God. Love yourself. Love others.
This doesn't really answer the question why we should be in cults at all, except for the vague mention of "human nature" in the beginning. Realisation of personal potential and participation in a healthy group (as mentioned in the end) are brilliant things to strive for but why the need for a cult?
Because we need a cohesive communities to be build around the important topics. As traditional cults/religions gives you an sense of belonging and ease of mind (surrender to higher power or guru) - those ethical cults would give us sense of belonging and sense of power that you not fighting climate change alone for example. That's how I understand it.Maybe the word "cult" has too many pejorative connotations to be used.
No, not everyone worships.
Why worship anything? Why place the locus of creative realization outside of yourself if not just by habit? I can assure you that worshipping is a dead end.
Only trust your self
Either i worship the lineage, or a person, or myself.
But what about our creator, god, allah.
I believe we need to worship our god, or as a muslim allah, he gave us existence, and he only deserves our worship.
And what proof do you have supporting your claim
Just like everyone has some type of addiction or addictions
That's just narcissism with extra steps.
Everyone DOES NOT worship. Worshipping indicates awe and adulation. Yes, these are human all too human attributes, but they're dangerous and NOT essential to living a good human life. I think sinking into the blessed feelings of a cult is more like a drug, a form of escape, for the weak and feeble-minded. I like the idea of an ethical cult, though. The world needs more people thinking in a proactive ecologically sound manner.
I found my “ethical cult” in ISHA 🥰
Jamie Wheal has been saying the same thing for decades now and it hasn't had any real impact because it's pure sophistry. He's made a nice life for himself though. Not a deep thinker in my estimation. There are many who have surpassed him and carried the torch forward.
And you’re doing so much right.
Any examples?
...wait LMAO, why am I getting left-handed path vibes from this, but couched in the language of empowerment and fulfillment of potential?
Do we really need cults, or do we just need fewer followers?
Very very interesting....
I am onto your book.
I wonder what where did that thumbnail come from? Looks like quite an accurate image for a lost cult. Nowhere to find yet, but trying to form a bond.
Found it by internet searching "red cult", and it turned out to be Rajneeshpuram USA in Oregon from 1981 to 1988, which was disbanded.
“Culty cults”
Many believe I know the secret of the Elixir of Life, lay hidden in a place which depicts Earth's final destiny.
I can do this
Don't drink the koolaid folks.
Shit they got me.
I'm just a ghost now
Chuckles.
I can honestly say none of these things have ever applied/appealed to me and I still find it strange that others feel this need to relinquish self-determination to any extent.
I agree with you.
Most of us who had religious pasts were indoctrinated into it. So i will say if most people had a choice they wouldnt be religious.
If you really believe that, perhaps you have not introspected enough.
Can you please provide the names of the people mentioned in the culty cults section?
no. we do not need cults. the world does not need cults. the human being does not need cults. what is a cult? just that - something that needs to exist for the cult to exist. it exists as an entity separate from the individual through which it in actuality seeks to overtake and enrich/empower itself. that is the definition and gist of it. but then, if you benefit from being in one it is another can of worms, to use a phrase. just don't confuse the meaning of the term as properly comprehended/construed. ;
did you watch the video?
@@PeterZeeke did you read my reply? : ))
@@megenberg8 lol, I have to admit i only read the first part originally, but read the rest because of your reply. I interpreted the video differently to you I think. I maintain the video has a lot of truth in it and yes we do need ethical cults if you go by the logic of the video. The video is suggesting that cults of all kinds are part of human behaviour, suggesting that we don't need cults is like suggesting we don't need oxygen. Yes the narrow widely used mainstream application of the term conjours up images of men in goat masks in secret societies, but in reality the word cult is adjacent to the word culture, we're all apart and effected by it whether or not we want to be. to be totally apart from culture would cause a person serious and unbelievably troubling existential distress. So if we except this, what is the best way to manage this fundamental part of the human experience? we used to use religion, but that fell out of favour, then it became objects we could buy, and now it's just other people...
the video is saying that if we stick with the other people model, the best way to do it is within each cult(ure) each individual is given agency so its not just one person calling the shots , but this is hard to pull off
@@PeterZeeke culture is a word without particular meaning other than as an indicator of some direct substantive quality, e.g., 'nature' 'civilized' 'strength' 'mind' 'intellect' and on and so on. culture is merely the word suggesting/signaling the particular subject being cited/described. it is wholly neutral unless one includes a case/situation in point. rather than seeking an identity/experience in culture (or in cults for that matter), the mature, honest, and wiser soul calls upon self-knowledge. herein one is able to find the direct and substantive experience whose reward is freedom in truth. just to mention here the beautiful quote of Keats: '.... truth is beauty and beauty is truth - that is all the truth you need to know and all the truth ye shall ever know'. and to these words i do wholeheartedly agree - yet i have to say that from my own personal perspective the Lord is also love. He is Beauty Love Truth - all together! : )) Yes!!
Cults are tribalism but on the extreme end of the scale. High control.
he is so start up founder dude
Paul Mckenzie in Kenya
So basically, we're supposed to want spiritual communities that don't manipulate or exploit their members. Okay, sure, whatever- but why do we need to play this word salad game of "ethical cults"? This is just needless contrarianism and vagueness for the sake of trying to sound profound.
Well how would you label it big man? I don’t really think the term is terribly vague.
Big think is my love channel ♥️♥️♥️♥️♥️♥️
I like the jazz analogy.
What if I don't really fit any where nor obsessed on anything but learning things?
Christopher Hitchens, David Attenboro, Stephen Hawkins, listen to those who aren't cult leaders and live quite ethically without god. This guy should go study religion back to its beginning which is all mythology.