How many drop site, Istvann massacres are there?? Two? I mean there is hope: Horus eventually loses. It’s just that all the good guys are way off on the other side of the galaxy to begin with. But also, 40K get progressively more depressing from 30K onwards
I love how Mira refuses to use wikis etc. It's lovely to see somebody have open, naive, pure, honest reactions. And Ian's wonderful simplistic descriptions are, well, wonderful. Read faster guys! I love these videos.
The thing that made most of Horus' behaviour make sense to me was this: he's a massively-insecure authoritarian. He's been given this big job that he doesn't honestly know if he's up to, and he wants to prove to anybody and everybody (and mostly himself) that he can do it. He loves it when he gets something right because it affirms his capability to himself; he hates being told what to do because it undermines his self-confidence - he should have already known the best thing to do, otherwise he's not good enough. Abaddon (of all the Mournival, the most like Horus), is in turn the stand-in for Horus when his presence is needed in a scene but he can't logically be there, and the foil for Horus when he needs to talk to himself but can't because that looks crazy. Why does Horus suddenly yell at Abaddon when they're discussing what to do with the Interex? Because he tries to do his own thing, and for the first time, Abaddon is questioning his wisdom. It's particularly hurtful precisely because it's Abaddon, who would normally think exactly the same as Horus - but in this scene Horus has the weight of being named Warmaster on his shoulders and feels the need to prove himself while Abaddon is just acting how Horus would have done a year prior... and in doing so triggering Horus' self-doubt. Why does Horus cry at the end of Horus Rising? Because he tried to do his own thing and it failed spectacularly, so he feels not-good-enough. Why does Horus get goaded into personally going after Eugen Temba on Davin's moon? Because Erebus framed it as a personal failing that the man he hand-picked to consolidate Davin let him down, so he feels not-good-enough. (Bonus: Abaddon almost kills Karkasy at this point, and why? Because Karkasy points out Horus is being manipulated, and Abaddon reacts just as badly to Karkasy suggesting Horus might not be making the best choice as Horus would have done.) Why does Horus turn to Chaos in the Serpent Lodge? Because of the two voices influencing him, Magnus says "do this specific thing (I know better than you)" and Erebus says "it's up to you, do what you want (you will make the best choice)". Why does Horus systematically murder questioning people, from the army chief to the snooty remembrancer to the head astropath? Sure he's consolidating his power and removing roadblocks but also two of those people told him he was wrong about a thing and the other one heard him spill the beans on his insecurity and was going to tell everyone. Why does Horus show all the remembrancers the virus bombing rather than just having them shot in their quarters? Because he wants the affirmation of their horrified reaction - he's done his own thing and it's all worked perfectly. Why does Horus send his legion down to the surface of Istvaan III when Angron does his own thing? Not just because Angron's freelancing undermines his authority, but because Abaddon witnesses it and questions it. Remember, Abaddon is Horus-outside-of-Horus and him voicing the uncertainty threatens to overshadow his triumph, so he's compelled into proving to himself, and everybody else (but mostly himself) that he's the brilliant genius everyone told him that he was and it wasn't a huge stupid mistake to do his own thing this time like it was with the Interex. And of course because he's acting from a position of childish insecurity rather than calmly appraising the situation, he makes the huge stupid mistake and lets himself get bogged down in a weeks-long grinding war that all but cancels out the position of strength he started the Heresy with. He doesn't look like a strategic genius at this point precisely because just he's not being a strategic genius, he's being insecure. Less clearly, but also quite plausible: Horus may not even resent the Emperor so much just because he was abandoned by his father, but because that abandonment meant he had to start making big decisions on his own rather than relying on dad to work everything out, and that scares him because he worries he's not going to get it all right. He can no longer blame anything that goes wrong on someone else having made a mistake, it's now all going to be his fault. The absent statues in the future-Imperium vision could play into this: he must have fucked up so badly that he got left ou. The worries about the Emperor ascending to godhood could play into this: dad made all the right decisions and got to be ineffable while Horus obviously just made stupid mistakes and didn't even get a plinth. In summary, Erebus isn't just a dick, but an emotionally-abusive dick.
I cried at the same moment as you Mira! "Did we hurt them? Did it mean anything?" Just the existential reflection of these marines, having sold their lives and wondering what they bought, if anything. I found it very moving.
It meant the world. Tying down the traitors gave enough time for Sanguinius and Dorn to defend. For Roboute to Avenge the fallen. The loyalists of Isstvaan 3 were the greatest Astrates generation there ever will be.
Best part is Fulgrim getting off on crushing the spirit stones of the wraith titan and he starts screaming "slaanesh" without ever hearing that name before.
An important facet of the night of the long knives that Ian leaves out in his description of the long knives that it super relevant to the book is that it was an *internal* purge. It wasn't just fascists killing people who disagree with them, it was also fascists killing other fascists, which one should never forget is what all HH content essentially is.
I read this novel so long ago, my parents mailed me a bunch of books when i was in iraq back in 2008-2009. In a package my parents sent me Galaxy in flames, Flight of the Einstein and Fulgrim. 3 books I read back to back. Then I ordered Legion when it came out. The first 4 books were in "order" then everything afterwards is printed from different points of view. I had played warhammer 40k since the late 90s so I knew about the big named character that had metal models (Chaos). I didn't know anything about these other names. Like Loken, Saul Tarvits, Nathaniel Garro, Cruz and even Lord commander Eidolon.
The Opening novels did such a great job with Horus Aximand. I wish they had followed through with the idea that he would eventually betray the Traitors and lower the Vengeful Spirit's shields - thus explaining the lore we already know that 'Horus' had willingly lowered the shields to allow the Emperor to teleport aboard for the final battle
Galaxy in flames is definitely one of my favorite horus heresy books. It's full of very emotional moments you wouldn't normally expect from a book like this, and i genuinely felt sad while reading some of those moments as well. Also I really love the fact that Tarvitz and the gang was defient to the very end and managed to punish traitors as long as they could.
Night of the Long Knives refers to a purge Hitler and the Nazi leadership undertook of their own ranks. The victims were mostly the SA or the "Brown Shirts". This was the more plebeian section of the Nazi's support that were seen (rightly or wrongly) to have more anti-big business views. It was basically Hitler proving to big business and the army high command that he could be trusted not to infringe on their interests. If any of this seems sympathetic to the SA I wanna emphasise that these people were hard core Nazi's, racists and xenophobes. They considered themselves Hitler loyalists. The Night of the Long Knives is a good example of when thieves fall out and one side murders the other. The destruction of people actually politically opposed to Hitler: Communists, Socialists, trade unionists, pacifists, Jehovahs Witnesses etc came a few months later and was the original purpose of German concentration camps. The experience they gained from this would be built upon and expanded I the Holocaust.
Good summary, but: leading members of the conservatives like Schleicher were also shot dead, along their family, as that event was used to even a lot of open scores for leading Nazi's. And the purging of the Left and jews from the public had already taken place in the 15 months prior to the NotlK.
I love the book Fulgrim I would also add, as you say about following orders. That was given as a reason a lot of the time at Nuremberg Trails. It was given as a defence
The relationship you two have brings me so much joy and makes me wish I had something similar with someone that was getting into the Warhammer lore bit by bit. It's so freaking wholesome. You guys look like you have an amazing friendship, and thank you for sharing it, and your experience of delving into the 40k/30k universe with the world!
Mira, Ian, this was, of the three HH books, the best book club episode. If that's even possible, you seem to be getting better at them. I've enjoyed it tremendously. It's an ideal primer for me, as I plan to revisit the HH, soon-ish. Thank you both for doing this. You're brilliant. And I've finally subscribed to Mira's channel as well - apologies for the delay. Much love from Hanover, Germany.
Even knowing that the battle would be bad, the weight of everything was super heavy. Definitely felt the loss and frustration at what didn’t need to happen.
That bit that Mira reads at 33:00 is a genuinely emotional moment in the story. It's a true 'last stand' moment where the loyalists rage against the dying of the light and will never know if their voices will be heard in the records of history :-(
I'm pretty sure it was this book, but "Veteran's prerogative" was definitely the first time in a while I've actually cried at a book. Didn't expect it to be a warhammer novel.
Reading the previous two books and getting to the point where a World Eater is trying to comprehend the betrayal. Breaks. My. Heart. Every time!!! I’ve read the first three every year for a handful of years and it still got me by the end of the 5th read haha
This absolutely wonderful smiling woman has made me smile for the first time in a very long time. Just recently I went through a terrible financial mess (lost my job) and had to sell most/nearly all of my 3rd edition painted collection. It has been absolutely heartbreaking but this woman truly made me smile. Thank you 🙏 🙂
I did not cry but it was a gut wrenching moment. Sort of like...hmm how do I word this... in movies - when someone dies because of a betrayl and you get that flashback of all the "good times" he had with all his "friends" before he's gone. You know? That kinda deal happened in my head. It was really sad , yes.
I didn't cry during this book, I don't cry easily at fiction, BUT I did feel several powerful upwellings of emotions, specifically as the Mournival tore itself apart. I would have liked to see more development of these characters, but what we got was very well done. This series is High Pulp. I love it. Mostly.
Oh man are you guys really going to do ALL of them? Jeez that's an undertaking! The first 3-5 I and then selected highlights would be a much better experience but I respect the grind. I hope Mira doesn't lose hope before she gets to some of the really interesting later books though, particularly holding out to see if First Heretic can give her a new perspective on my boys the Word Bearers. I think First Heretic/Know No Fear/Betrayer is a great little mini-trilogy in the middle of the Heresy.
But yeah, when I re-read this a few weeks ago I found I liked it more than the first time I read it. Same for Flight of the Eisenstein. It's very "action movie" but that's probably appropriate.
Also a very important thematic point of the Night of the Long Knives is that it's when the Nazis stopped pretending to be socialists; one of the primary goals of the killings was to stop the socialist revolutionaries that had gotten Hitler to power from actually overthrowing the government (and undoing the Nazis' work) and from redistributing the wealth of the upper class.
Been waiting for this one. Loving you book club videos! And as the old saying goes; If you find yourself in a room with Erebus and Kor Pheron and have a pistol and 2 bullets, shoot Erebus twice then beat the corpse until it's hamburger meat.
If I'm not mistaken, the reason Horus said "Screw it" and went with deploying to the surface with Angron was because if he didn't, it would have shown that he doesn't have complete control over the other Primarchs and sow the potential seeds for someone else usurping him. Not much of a crier, but got close when they bombarded the remnants of the planet at the end of the book. However I did at the end of Legion which I wont spoil. And at the end of Corax, which anyone whom has read that book knows why.
Mira's intro!🤣😂🤣 cant wait for the response to the next 2 novels ........ didn't cry with this 1 but i did take a moment of realisation of what had just begun.
28:00 This is a really good point. It's clear that none of the Black Library authors know anything about real military matters. I have a friend who's serving military and he rails about things he reads in Imperial Guard novels that are just breaches of the most basic military practice. And in Know No Fear, Roboute Guilliman is supposed to be the foremost military mind of M30, writes in his Notes Towards Martial Codification, which is supposed to be his manual of the utmost military strategy, something to the effect of "Attack with all the dakka you've got as quickly as possible." Sun Tzu or von Clausewitz it is not.
Oh I was devastated by the end of this, one of the few books I’ve ever read that reduced me to tears by the end of it “Did we hurt them, Captain? Did this mean anything?” FUCK MAN I get teary eyed just thinking about it
Great series thanks! For me the death of Istvan 3 is imprinted on my mind, very harrowing. I was pleased that Locan's end was not clear, hoping he'll turn up again at some point? We'll see. Enjoy!
I will say about the point of Horus being bad at strategy is that Ben Counter does somewhat address it near the end of the book. When Maloghurst says he thought the ground battle wasn't worth it Horus counters with what was gained, that being Abaddon gaining valuable experience and the World Eaters being at a point of no return. It's kinda flimsy on Horus' part but at least shows that he views things in a wider picture than others would
First time getting into Warhammer, I knew about Istvann III and the drop site massacre but the events of Istvann V was a total surprise. God damn was this book just flat out awesome, was the culmination of the previous 2 books that ended tragically and was the beginning of this massive book series.
I didn't cry but everyone around me knew i read something that upset me lol. My daughter asked, "did the good guys die in your books again dad?" hahaha
I didn't cry when i read about the virus bombs... But i was close. I coupd feel my cheeks welling up. I was genuinely surprised how emotional it made me feel.
Just finished reading it one of the best fantasy books I have read in 50 years of enjoying the topic .you guys do a great job of explaining to cheers. ⚒️
One of the saddest bits of this book is the description of the loyalist World Eaters, looking like lost children wandering around. And yeah, good wishes and good luck on book clubbing through the Horus Heresy, I think it's a worth while project, should be great evergreen content. All of the books have at least some neat parts to them, but I know we're all excited to look back again at some of the standout books. Also now I'm pronouncing Galaxy in Flames as, "Gal-acks-ian Flahms"
I definitely feel like the way Horus turned evil was rushed. But then again they probably didn’t know at the time that the Horus Heresy would be 50 books long.
I see a lot of people feeling like Horus fall felt too quick and I'd like to offer my counter argument, admittedly I felt like this at one point aswell. However, after reading further and gaining more context, then reading the og trilogy again I think you see enough moments showing the doubt, and immense weight of responsibility Horus is carrying. They are few, just small moments throughout the trilogy, but the fact that you see them at all shows how stressed he is, and these moments give you a window into what must be going through his head constantly. The jist of it is: Horus has been questioning his place in the future Imperium, he's already feeling abandoned by the Emperor who won't even tell Horus what he's doing, he's stressed by the weight of responsibility that comes with being Warmaster, he questions the ideals of the Crusade and then meeting the interex he realises that He and his legion look like barbaric war monsters (because they are) and also thinks maybe we don't have to kill all xenos, but Erebus sabotages this and you can tell Horus is sad about this. The new human administration is beginning to gain prominence and he has pencil pushers telling him what to do while he bleeds on the front lines creating this Empire. The Marines are wondering what their place will be once the Crusade is over so you know Horus is wondering the same (remeber the Thunder Warriors) Stressed, doubting the Emperor and his place in the future. Erebus whispering in his ear, Temba insulting his personal honour. Gravley wounded and sick, the Powers of Chaos play on his existing doubts and using his prideful nature the Gods tempt Horus. He doesn't fall immediately, Initially he plans to overthrow the Emperor, he'll have to spill innocent blood and fight his brothers, but his intention is to make a better Emprie for humanity, yes his ego is a little out of control here, but also the Emperor IS a tyrant. He didn't intend for all the Chaosy dark evil stuff to happen initially, but thats how Chaos gets you, just one little crack in your soul, once you've taken that first step, there is no stopping or going back And so he spirals and things get out of hand, rather quickly too.
I got pretty emotional at the end of this book too. The last stand of these characters is really heroic and wonderfully written. Its sad and its beautiful.
Unpopular opinion: I thought Battle for the Abyss was a great action novel. Cliched portrayal of the Legions and iffy ret-conned ending, but a fun chase story.
I actually like the idea, that Angron still has some sembelance of honour and wants to give his sons some form of honourable death. Hence ruining Horus plans.
Yep, i cried too. The tragedy of it all was brilliant....fulgrim though....wow, just you wait, what an awesome book. The only other bit which made me cry in the whole series was in the end and the death...a certain interaction between a guardsman and a mechanicus soldier..just brilliant
I like the fact that practically everybody in this book loses in some way or other, good or bad. Horus has his plans thwarted by heroism, Lucius gets outplayed by Tarvitz, Aximand gets haunted by the murder of a friend, Abaddon isn't allowed an honourable victory (which becomes a character trait later) and even Erebus doesn't get quite the hold over Horus and the war that he hoped for.
I guess I was too used to the grimdark to be sad about all the deaths. Except Solomon Demeter (had to look up his name), the guy who got tricked and killed by Lucius. That was rough. And it wasn't mentioned in the video, but there's a bit where Khârn gets impaled by a passing vehicle, and it's kinda hilarious.
I just about remember reading this for the first time, and whilst I was very moved by the description.. being an old Warhammer Troll I was very aware what was coming, so it did not make me cry. I think the only 40k books to do that for me were Gav Thorpe's Raven Guard HH bewks ^^
"Recruit: Were the Luna Wolves the first to fall? Astartes: Brother, they were the first to stand" stolen from @raspherion 's comment from atrocity song.
Can’t describe how excited I am for you to get to Legion and Know No Fear. Those two books are genuinely fantastic, and after Horus Rising, the most exciting - honourable mention to First Heretic and Thousand Sons though.
Think there might be a one space still open in Mira’s patreon book club tier 🤔 Eisenstein is this month, non-Warhammer next month, then fulgrim I expect - but I’m sure Legion will happen before the end of the year
I'm really glad I found this channel. I really hope they get to the Primarchs that are easier to feel bad for like Magnus and *kind of* Lorgar after she mentioned she hopes the next book doesn't make you feel for Horus. "The Thousand Sons" and "Prospero Burns" were great. Also that fight with Maggard might one of the most memorable fights of the Horus Heresy. And oh boy if she's upset with the Emperor now just wait a little while longer.
I did actually cry, and I think it's largely because these books were my introduction to the 40k setting. I had no clue who might live and who might die. Had no idea how many books there were in the series. Went in pretty much totally blind.
At this point in the timeline I think it’s 005.M31 (or 30,005 CE) so five years since the Triumph at Ullanor where the Emperor retired to Terra and named Horus Warmaster. I’m looking forward to Legion and Know No Fear most now :)
Late to the party but I’ve just finished Galaxy in Flames and I’m watching these videos as I finish each book. My thoughts on the Warsingers and their exquisitely designed cities and armour, and their use of sound as a weapon, is that this is basically a planet where Slaanesh has influenced it. (Much like we encountered the Plague Planet previously for Nurgle.) And here you have the Emperor’s Children interacting with it, with notable Emperor’s Child Lucius being the one to topple the Warsinger’s leader *and* being the one to be both in the assault on the planet and to survive. Not having read any further in the HH series, this could all be complete nonsense but equally I fully expected some kind of Slaanesh daemon to appear throughout the war sequence.
Oh and at a stretch (a real stretch), the fact that Angron (future Khorne celebrity) is unable to stop himself from going all-in on the planet could be a tenuous nod to the “Khorne hates Slaanesh” thread that runs through the lore.
Is it wrong that part of me wishes they'd not had the firebombing to scour the planet after the virus bombing? Because while the rest of the scenes that follow are fantastic, some sick part of me wishes they'd been stuck fighting in this sea of *_forbidden gravy_* for the rest of the climax.
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Mira: "I want the loyalist to become really strong so it doesn't become completely hopeless"
Ian: *Dreadfully stares at Istvaan V*
"At least after Istvaan III, the loyalists finally get some pay-back... right?
...Surely... Right?"
*Queue tears*
*pours Scotch in PTSD*
FORTY NINE LIKES OH NOES! 👀
How many drop site, Istvann massacres are there?? Two?
I mean there is hope: Horus eventually loses. It’s just that all the good guys are way off on the other side of the galaxy to begin with.
But also, 40K get progressively more depressing from 30K onwards
I love how Mira refuses to use wikis etc.
It's lovely to see somebody have open, naive, pure, honest reactions.
And Ian's wonderful simplistic descriptions are, well, wonderful.
Read faster guys! I love these videos.
❤❤❤
When Mira teared up there for a moment, I just wanted to give her a hug.
The thing that made most of Horus' behaviour make sense to me was this: he's a massively-insecure authoritarian. He's been given this big job that he doesn't honestly know if he's up to, and he wants to prove to anybody and everybody (and mostly himself) that he can do it. He loves it when he gets something right because it affirms his capability to himself; he hates being told what to do because it undermines his self-confidence - he should have already known the best thing to do, otherwise he's not good enough. Abaddon (of all the Mournival, the most like Horus), is in turn the stand-in for Horus when his presence is needed in a scene but he can't logically be there, and the foil for Horus when he needs to talk to himself but can't because that looks crazy.
Why does Horus suddenly yell at Abaddon when they're discussing what to do with the Interex? Because he tries to do his own thing, and for the first time, Abaddon is questioning his wisdom. It's particularly hurtful precisely because it's Abaddon, who would normally think exactly the same as Horus - but in this scene Horus has the weight of being named Warmaster on his shoulders and feels the need to prove himself while Abaddon is just acting how Horus would have done a year prior... and in doing so triggering Horus' self-doubt.
Why does Horus cry at the end of Horus Rising? Because he tried to do his own thing and it failed spectacularly, so he feels not-good-enough.
Why does Horus get goaded into personally going after Eugen Temba on Davin's moon? Because Erebus framed it as a personal failing that the man he hand-picked to consolidate Davin let him down, so he feels not-good-enough.
(Bonus: Abaddon almost kills Karkasy at this point, and why? Because Karkasy points out Horus is being manipulated, and Abaddon reacts just as badly to Karkasy suggesting Horus might not be making the best choice as Horus would have done.)
Why does Horus turn to Chaos in the Serpent Lodge? Because of the two voices influencing him, Magnus says "do this specific thing (I know better than you)" and Erebus says "it's up to you, do what you want (you will make the best choice)".
Why does Horus systematically murder questioning people, from the army chief to the snooty remembrancer to the head astropath? Sure he's consolidating his power and removing roadblocks but also two of those people told him he was wrong about a thing and the other one heard him spill the beans on his insecurity and was going to tell everyone.
Why does Horus show all the remembrancers the virus bombing rather than just having them shot in their quarters? Because he wants the affirmation of their horrified reaction - he's done his own thing and it's all worked perfectly.
Why does Horus send his legion down to the surface of Istvaan III when Angron does his own thing? Not just because Angron's freelancing undermines his authority, but because Abaddon witnesses it and questions it. Remember, Abaddon is Horus-outside-of-Horus and him voicing the uncertainty threatens to overshadow his triumph, so he's compelled into proving to himself, and everybody else (but mostly himself) that he's the brilliant genius everyone told him that he was and it wasn't a huge stupid mistake to do his own thing this time like it was with the Interex. And of course because he's acting from a position of childish insecurity rather than calmly appraising the situation, he makes the huge stupid mistake and lets himself get bogged down in a weeks-long grinding war that all but cancels out the position of strength he started the Heresy with. He doesn't look like a strategic genius at this point precisely because just he's not being a strategic genius, he's being insecure.
Less clearly, but also quite plausible: Horus may not even resent the Emperor so much just because he was abandoned by his father, but because that abandonment meant he had to start making big decisions on his own rather than relying on dad to work everything out, and that scares him because he worries he's not going to get it all right. He can no longer blame anything that goes wrong on someone else having made a mistake, it's now all going to be his fault. The absent statues in the future-Imperium vision could play into this: he must have fucked up so badly that he got left ou. The worries about the Emperor ascending to godhood could play into this: dad made all the right decisions and got to be ineffable while Horus obviously just made stupid mistakes and didn't even get a plinth.
In summary, Erebus isn't just a dick, but an emotionally-abusive dick.
Beautiful analysis, thank you for putting it to words better than I can.
Finally a semi-redeeming take on an otherwise nonsensical betrayal by Horus.
"They (Emperor's children) are like Kardashians gone mad"
... oh my god, it's perfect
Torgaddons death was hard. He was a champ, and his death is a gut punch.
My favourite character in the opening trilogy. My gecko is named after him
For me it was Saul Tarvitz. Fuck erebus and fuck lucius
No worries, he is coming back :D
@@1989eol yes.... as a ghost in Lokens mind or a Demon. I have read the books.
@@Kristian.B.Kristiansen I really liked that touch of over the top cruelty.
I cried at the same moment as you Mira!
"Did we hurt them? Did it mean anything?" Just the existential reflection of these marines, having sold their lives and wondering what they bought, if anything. I found it very moving.
It meant the world. Tying down the traitors gave enough time for Sanguinius and Dorn to defend. For Roboute to Avenge the fallen. The loyalists of Isstvaan 3 were the greatest Astrates generation there ever will be.
Mira is going to have real issues with Fulgrim’s book
Oh yeah.... massive issues I fear 😅
The opera was so wholesome!
my favorite! the slow dragging start and that end. Loved it.
I'm sure she'll enjoy Serena's painting 💩
Best part is Fulgrim getting off on crushing the spirit stones of the wraith titan and he starts screaming "slaanesh" without ever hearing that name before.
Saul Tarvitz: If you an Astartes how come you sound like you're from the north?
Nathaniel Garro: Lots of planets have a north.
These have to be the best Black Library book discussions on You Tube. Informative and always massively entertaining.
An important facet of the night of the long knives that Ian leaves out in his description of the long knives that it super relevant to the book is that it was an *internal* purge. It wasn't just fascists killing people who disagree with them, it was also fascists killing other fascists, which one should never forget is what all HH content essentially is.
For the record, "Dies Irae" translates not to "angry god" (would be Deus Irate or something), but "Day of Wrath", referring to the apocalypse.
As a 30k fan in particular, the genuine enthusiasm that oozes through these vids is very endearing. Looking forward to more.
I read this novel so long ago, my parents mailed me a bunch of books when i was in iraq back in 2008-2009. In a package my parents sent me Galaxy in flames, Flight of the Einstein and Fulgrim. 3 books I read back to back. Then I ordered Legion when it came out. The first 4 books were in "order" then everything afterwards is printed from different points of view. I had played warhammer 40k since the late 90s so I knew about the big named character that had metal models (Chaos). I didn't know anything about these other names. Like Loken, Saul Tarvits, Nathaniel Garro, Cruz and even Lord commander Eidolon.
The Opening novels did such a great job with Horus Aximand. I wish they had followed through with the idea that he would eventually betray the Traitors and lower the Vengeful Spirit's shields - thus explaining the lore we already know that 'Horus' had willingly lowered the shields to allow the Emperor to teleport aboard for the final battle
That does sound really cool. I like that idea too
Galaxy in flames is definitely one of my favorite horus heresy books. It's full of very emotional moments you wouldn't normally expect from a book like this, and i genuinely felt sad while reading some of those moments as well.
Also I really love the fact that Tarvitz and the gang was defient to the very end and managed to punish traitors as long as they could.
I have cried over two separate Dreadnaughts from two different legions lmfao.
Night of the Long Knives refers to a purge Hitler and the Nazi leadership undertook of their own ranks. The victims were mostly the SA or the "Brown Shirts". This was the more plebeian section of the Nazi's support that were seen (rightly or wrongly) to have more anti-big business views. It was basically Hitler proving to big business and the army high command that he could be trusted not to infringe on their interests.
If any of this seems sympathetic to the SA I wanna emphasise that these people were hard core Nazi's, racists and xenophobes. They considered themselves Hitler loyalists. The Night of the Long Knives is a good example of when thieves fall out and one side murders the other.
The destruction of people actually politically opposed to Hitler: Communists, Socialists, trade unionists, pacifists, Jehovahs Witnesses etc came a few months later and was the original purpose of German concentration camps. The experience they gained from this would be built upon and expanded I the Holocaust.
Good summary, but: leading members of the conservatives like Schleicher were also shot dead, along their family, as that event was used to even a lot of open scores for leading Nazi's.
And the purging of the Left and jews from the public had already taken place in the 15 months prior to the NotlK.
I felt so damn sad when I first read this book.
Same. Sad, and also irrationally angry at fictional characters. I had atrocity by stringstorm constantly playing on loop for a week or so.
I love the book Fulgrim
I would also add, as you say about following orders. That was given as a reason a lot of the time at Nuremberg Trails. It was given as a defence
The relationship you two have brings me so much joy and makes me wish I had something similar with someone that was getting into the Warhammer lore bit by bit. It's so freaking wholesome. You guys look like you have an amazing friendship, and thank you for sharing it, and your experience of delving into the 40k/30k universe with the world!
Mira, Ian, this was, of the three HH books, the best book club episode. If that's even possible, you seem to be getting better at them. I've enjoyed it tremendously.
It's an ideal primer for me, as I plan to revisit the HH, soon-ish.
Thank you both for doing this. You're brilliant.
And I've finally subscribed to Mira's channel as well - apologies for the delay.
Much love from Hanover, Germany.
Thanks for the sub Rob!
@@miramanga My pleasure. ♥
The final bit with “did it mean anything” always gets me.
Even knowing that the battle would be bad, the weight of everything was super heavy. Definitely felt the loss and frustration at what didn’t need to happen.
perfect! almost an hour of book club just in time to listen as I do some painting
The passage Mira reads at 33:08 made me have to put the book down and pour a drink
That bit that Mira reads at 33:00 is a genuinely emotional moment in the story. It's a true 'last stand' moment where the loyalists rage against the dying of the light and will never know if their voices will be heard in the records of history :-(
"Aww. And then they get bombed to fuck!" ^.^
@@TheOnlyRealIRONicMAN "Yeahh bombed to fuck :DDDD yeah"
I'm pretty sure it was this book, but "Veteran's prerogative" was definitely the first time in a while I've actually cried at a book. Didn't expect it to be a warhammer novel.
Reading the previous two books and getting to the point where a World Eater is trying to comprehend the betrayal. Breaks. My. Heart. Every time!!! I’ve read the first three every year for a handful of years and it still got me by the end of the 5th read haha
Flight of the Eisenstein is my favourite HH book, looking forward to that book club
This absolutely wonderful smiling woman has made me smile for the first time in a very long time. Just recently I went through a terrible financial mess (lost my job) and had to sell most/nearly all of my 3rd edition painted collection. It has been absolutely heartbreaking but this woman truly made me smile. Thank you 🙏 🙂
Subbed to her channel too?
i did not cry, but when the bombs hit, there was a power outrage in my city. had to continue reading with candale light.
I did not cry but it was a gut wrenching moment. Sort of like...hmm how do I word this... in movies - when someone dies because of a betrayl and you get that flashback of all the "good times" he had with all his "friends" before he's gone. You know? That kinda deal happened in my head.
It was really sad , yes.
Can't wait for her to read about the Word Bearers and Argel Tals jounery. That story was really dark and grim on a realy deep level.
I didn't cry during this book, I don't cry easily at fiction, BUT I did feel several powerful upwellings of emotions, specifically as the Mournival tore itself apart. I would have liked to see more development of these characters, but what we got was very well done. This series is High Pulp. I love it. Mostly.
So I teared up a little during the soup scene.
Oh man are you guys really going to do ALL of them? Jeez that's an undertaking! The first 3-5 I and then selected highlights would be a much better experience but I respect the grind. I hope Mira doesn't lose hope before she gets to some of the really interesting later books though, particularly holding out to see if First Heretic can give her a new perspective on my boys the Word Bearers. I think First Heretic/Know No Fear/Betrayer is a great little mini-trilogy in the middle of the Heresy.
But yeah, when I re-read this a few weeks ago I found I liked it more than the first time I read it. Same for Flight of the Eisenstein. It's very "action movie" but that's probably appropriate.
Man imagine them going through the Salamanders part
Also a very important thematic point of the Night of the Long Knives is that it's when the Nazis stopped pretending to be socialists; one of the primary goals of the killings was to stop the socialist revolutionaries that had gotten Hitler to power from actually overthrowing the government (and undoing the Nazis' work) and from redistributing the wealth of the upper class.
Been waiting for this one. Loving you book club videos!
And as the old saying goes;
If you find yourself in a room with Erebus and Kor Pheron and have a pistol and 2 bullets, shoot Erebus twice then beat the corpse until it's hamburger meat.
😂😂😂😂😂
Very visceral 😂 Kor would probably let it happen, hell he probably gave you the gun!
Erebus is the most successful character in the entire Heresy. More people should have his hustle!
If I'm not mistaken, the reason Horus said "Screw it" and went with deploying to the surface with Angron was because if he didn't, it would have shown that he doesn't have complete control over the other Primarchs and sow the potential seeds for someone else usurping him.
Not much of a crier, but got close when they bombarded the remnants of the planet at the end of the book.
However I did at the end of Legion which I wont spoil.
And at the end of Corax, which anyone whom has read that book knows why.
"its like the Kardashins gone mad"...best despcrption of Fabius bile and Ediolon ever
Mira's intro!🤣😂🤣
cant wait for the response to the next 2 novels ........ didn't cry with this 1 but i did take a moment of realisation of what had just begun.
28:00 This is a really good point. It's clear that none of the Black Library authors know anything about real military matters. I have a friend who's serving military and he rails about things he reads in Imperial Guard novels that are just breaches of the most basic military practice.
And in Know No Fear, Roboute Guilliman is supposed to be the foremost military mind of M30, writes in his Notes Towards Martial Codification, which is supposed to be his manual of the utmost military strategy, something to the effect of "Attack with all the dakka you've got as quickly as possible." Sun Tzu or von Clausewitz it is not.
Oh I was devastated by the end of this, one of the few books I’ve ever read that reduced me to tears by the end of it
“Did we hurt them, Captain? Did this mean anything?”
FUCK MAN I get teary eyed just thinking about it
The true Emperor’s Children and Lunar Wolves. RIP!
I also feel very sad when Loken died. I absolutely feel Mira!
The betrayal of Loken and poor Tor, was a gut punch. But love the payoff in Saturine.
Thank you guys for introducing many newcomers to the WH 40K universe!
loving this series so much. great job!
Great series thanks! For me the death of Istvan 3 is imprinted on my mind, very harrowing. I was pleased that Locan's end was not clear, hoping he'll turn up again at some point? We'll see. Enjoy!
I will say about the point of Horus being bad at strategy is that Ben Counter does somewhat address it near the end of the book. When Maloghurst says he thought the ground battle wasn't worth it Horus counters with what was gained, that being Abaddon gaining valuable experience and the World Eaters being at a point of no return. It's kinda flimsy on Horus' part but at least shows that he views things in a wider picture than others would
First time getting into Warhammer, I knew about Istvann III and the drop site massacre but the events of Istvann V was a total surprise. God damn was this book just flat out awesome, was the culmination of the previous 2 books that ended tragically and was the beginning of this massive book series.
I didn't cry but everyone around me knew i read something that upset me lol. My daughter asked, "did the good guys die in your books again dad?" hahaha
What a fun review; Mira's take on the setting is so refreshing.
Can't wait to see Mira's reaction to Legion and First Heretic novels
Yes! The First Heretic is soooo good!
Easily 2 of my Top 3 Novels in the series.
I didn't cry when i read about the virus bombs... But i was close. I coupd feel my cheeks welling up. I was genuinely surprised how emotional it made me feel.
After Galaxy In Flames and Eisenstein, I was sooooo happy to learn of the Garro series, He is my all time favourite Astartes.
Just finished reading it one of the best fantasy books I have read in 50 years of enjoying the topic .you guys do a great job of explaining to cheers. ⚒️
Love this series. Great watching.
One of the saddest bits of this book is the description of the loyalist World Eaters, looking like lost children wandering around.
And yeah, good wishes and good luck on book clubbing through the Horus Heresy, I think it's a worth while project, should be great evergreen content. All of the books have at least some neat parts to them, but I know we're all excited to look back again at some of the standout books.
Also now I'm pronouncing Galaxy in Flames as, "Gal-acks-ian Flahms"
I definitely feel like the way Horus turned evil was rushed. But then again they probably didn’t know at the time that the Horus Heresy would be 50 books long.
I see a lot of people feeling like Horus fall felt too quick and I'd like to offer my counter argument, admittedly I felt like this at one point aswell.
However, after reading further and gaining more context, then reading the og trilogy again I think you see enough moments showing the doubt, and immense weight of responsibility Horus is carrying.
They are few, just small moments throughout the trilogy, but the fact that you see them at all shows how stressed he is, and these moments give you a window into what must be going through his head constantly.
The jist of it is: Horus has been questioning his place in the future Imperium, he's already feeling abandoned by the Emperor who won't even tell Horus what he's doing, he's stressed by the weight of responsibility that comes with being Warmaster, he questions the ideals of the Crusade and then meeting the interex he realises that He and his legion look like barbaric war monsters (because they are) and also thinks maybe we don't have to kill all xenos, but Erebus sabotages this and you can tell Horus is sad about this.
The new human administration is beginning to gain prominence and he has pencil pushers telling him what to do while he bleeds on the front lines creating this Empire.
The Marines are wondering what their place will be once the Crusade is over so you know Horus is wondering the same (remeber the Thunder Warriors)
Stressed, doubting the Emperor and his place in the future.
Erebus whispering in his ear, Temba insulting his personal honour.
Gravley wounded and sick, the Powers of Chaos play on his existing doubts and using his prideful nature the Gods tempt Horus.
He doesn't fall immediately, Initially he plans to overthrow the Emperor, he'll have to spill innocent blood and fight his brothers, but his intention is to make a better Emprie for humanity, yes his ego is a little out of control here, but also the Emperor IS a tyrant.
He didn't intend for all the Chaosy dark evil stuff to happen initially, but thats how Chaos gets you, just one little crack in your soul, once you've taken that first step, there is no stopping or going back
And so he spirals and things get out of hand, rather quickly too.
I got pretty emotional at the end of this book too. The last stand of these characters is really heroic and wonderfully written. Its sad and its beautiful.
definitely cried a few times with black library books. don't remember with this one but definitely at many other moments
I think Galaxy in Flames or Fulgrim have to be my personal faves of the Horus Heresy books.
“There’s some coming up I’m not excited to reread.”
Ian just say Battle for the Abyss, no need to be coy. 😂
Man that book was a complete chore to read. Out of the heresy novels it's the only one I skipped on audible.
Just finished and can confirm it is a slog, with little in the way of interesting characters :(
Unpopular opinion: I thought Battle for the Abyss was a great action novel. Cliched portrayal of the Legions and iffy ret-conned ending, but a fun chase story.
@@JagonathI liked it too. I was almost surprised to see the near universal dislike of it!
I actually like the idea, that Angron still has some sembelance of honour and wants to give his sons some form of honourable death. Hence ruining Horus plans.
Yep, i cried too. The tragedy of it all was brilliant....fulgrim though....wow, just you wait, what an awesome book.
The only other bit which made me cry in the whole series was in the end and the death...a certain interaction between a guardsman and a mechanicus soldier..just brilliant
I cannot tell you when I cried reading a black library book because it would spoil stuff for Mira.
Yey! Never even realised this was coming! Great stuff while I work. Good work, fella! (And Mira!)
Don’t think I cried at this one but I’ve defo shed tears at later books
You are those two friends i always wanted and never had :)
We are your friends
I like the fact that practically everybody in this book loses in some way or other, good or bad. Horus has his plans thwarted by heroism, Lucius gets outplayed by Tarvitz, Aximand gets haunted by the murder of a friend, Abaddon isn't allowed an honourable victory (which becomes a character trait later) and even Erebus doesn't get quite the hold over Horus and the war that he hoped for.
I guess I was too used to the grimdark to be sad about all the deaths.
Except Solomon Demeter (had to look up his name), the guy who got tricked and killed by Lucius. That was rough.
And it wasn't mentioned in the video, but there's a bit where Khârn gets impaled by a passing vehicle, and it's kinda hilarious.
Exactly. Throughout the whole series, the deaths of Solomon & Shadrak Meduson were the ones that hit different for me.
🎶Keeler in a coma I know, I know it's serious🎶
I just about remember reading this for the first time, and whilst I was very moved by the description.. being an old Warhammer Troll I was very aware what was coming, so it did not make me cry. I think the only 40k books to do that for me were Gav Thorpe's Raven Guard HH bewks ^^
so excited for mira to read some of my favorite books! (and to maybe have new/continuing convos with some of my favorite authors!)
Very timely, I literally just finished this one.
"Recruit: Were the Luna Wolves the first to fall?
Astartes: Brother, they were the first to stand"
stolen from @raspherion 's comment from atrocity song.
When Mira says she hopes Aximand does something good for once and Ian looks at the camera and shakes his head...hilarious! If you know, you know.
If it makes you feel better Mira, Saul Tarvitz was honored with his own model, and the title The First Loyalist.
Thanks for clearing up the Podcast-Thing!
I immediately went looking for it on iTunes when you mentioned it last week, idiot that I am😅
Love that Mira also wants a Blueberry Tau. Yall should read Fire Warrior or Fire Caste
Can’t describe how excited I am for you to get to Legion and Know No Fear. Those two books are genuinely fantastic, and after Horus Rising, the most exciting - honourable mention to First Heretic and Thousand Sons though.
Think there might be a one space still open in Mira’s patreon book club tier 🤔 Eisenstein is this month, non-Warhammer next month, then fulgrim I expect - but I’m sure Legion will happen before the end of the year
The Black library houses the total knowledge of the eldar and is hidden in the webway.
I'm really glad I found this channel. I really hope they get to the Primarchs that are easier to feel bad for like Magnus and *kind of* Lorgar after she mentioned she hopes the next book doesn't make you feel for Horus. "The Thousand Sons" and "Prospero Burns" were great. Also that fight with Maggard might one of the most memorable fights of the Horus Heresy. And oh boy if she's upset with the Emperor now just wait a little while longer.
Always a pleasure to watch
Hmmm, I'd say that "Night Of The Long Knives" is probably more the killing of the Thunder Warriors, but that doesn't contradict of course
Very fun video… can’t wait for you to get to “Legion”
Man I remeber, as a teenager, being at the verge of tears reading Galaxy In Flames. I was generally depressed by it.
I was making donuts overnight when I heard this audiobook and I cried! Good shit and to Ian.. it's the Emperor. ¡Omnissiah le bendiga!
I did actually cry, and I think it's largely because these books were my introduction to the 40k setting. I had no clue who might live and who might die. Had no idea how many books there were in the series. Went in pretty much totally blind.
I was so upset about the deaths of the characters at the end that I didn't pick up the fourth book for years after!
At this point in the timeline I think it’s 005.M31 (or 30,005 CE) so five years since the Triumph at Ullanor where the Emperor retired to Terra and named Horus Warmaster.
I’m looking forward to Legion and Know No Fear most now :)
I really want them to read Head of the Hydra and realize the Alpha Legion are the only good guys.
Swap First Heretic for Know No Fear for me, but yes! Legion is very good too, to be fair.
I did not cry, but i was really moved by it
Late to the party but I’ve just finished Galaxy in Flames and I’m watching these videos as I finish each book.
My thoughts on the Warsingers and their exquisitely designed cities and armour, and their use of sound as a weapon, is that this is basically a planet where Slaanesh has influenced it. (Much like we encountered the Plague Planet previously for Nurgle.)
And here you have the Emperor’s Children interacting with it, with notable Emperor’s Child Lucius being the one to topple the Warsinger’s leader *and* being the one to be both in the assault on the planet and to survive.
Not having read any further in the HH series, this could all be complete nonsense but equally I fully expected some kind of Slaanesh daemon to appear throughout the war sequence.
Oh and at a stretch (a real stretch), the fact that Angron (future Khorne celebrity) is unable to stop himself from going all-in on the planet could be a tenuous nod to the “Khorne hates Slaanesh” thread that runs through the lore.
I definitely had a lump in my throat at the betrayal, I put it up there with order 66 😢
Is it wrong that part of me wishes they'd not had the firebombing to scour the planet after the virus bombing? Because while the rest of the scenes that follow are fantastic, some sick part of me wishes they'd been stuck fighting in this sea of *_forbidden gravy_* for the rest of the climax.
They're all dead. Everybody's dead, Dave. Everybody is dead, everybody's dead, Dave!
not peterson?
"Was Erebus even involved in this?" "IT'S HIS FAULT!" Welcome to Warhammer 30k.
I'm not sure whether to watch this or not as I'm on the last few chapters of this myself 😊
You're right, "Obadiah" is a good old-fashioned name.