Jumping the String | Research to Improve CROSSBOW Hunting Success!
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 15 ก.ย. 2024
- Deer jump the string sometimes. It's happened to me and The Original Bunjie more times than we'd like. But that was at 300fps maximum--how about more modern crossbows? How far can we shoot but avoid deer jumping the string?
Thanks to Darren Cummings for joining me. Check out his TH-cam Channel, Hunting Science Explained: / @huntingscienceexplain...
I have seen every one of Dr. Grant Woods' videos over the years. Every one! When I found that channel years ago, I went back to the beginning and watched them all. You should, too. Start with this one, the video mentioned here: • Jumping the String | N...
This channel is about my love of the crossbow, hunting, and the outdoors. I hunt exclusively with the crossbow. I love it and I aim to help you love it, too!
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deathbybunjie
Now, I am not sponsored by anyone. I am a free agent. I experiement with different types of gear, but I'll tell you my honest opinion about everything out there. I am not sponsored by Excalibur or Scorpyd...read on:
Bunjie (The O.B.) is a 2010 Excalibur Axiom Crossbow. After a decade of killing deer, hogs, squirrels--you name it!--with the "stock" 20" Easton Firebolt arrows, Bunjie experimented with heavy arrows during 2020 but has since decided to hunt with 20" ProFlight arrows from Easton, for a total arrow weight of just under 400 grains when tipped with a 100 grain Rage Crossbow Hypodermic Broadhead. This keeps ol' Bunjie around 300fps. Is Bunjie retired as of 2021?
Bunjie, Jr., is my daughter Genevieve's crossbow, an Excalibur Micro Suppressor 355. She also shoots ProFlights (16.5" variety) with a 150 grain Rage Trypan Crossbow Broadhead, for a total arrow weight around 415 grains. This crossbow was a much appreciated gift from a Friend of Bunjie, and it changed Death by Bunjie forever by inspiring Genevieve to become a part of it as a second-generation crossbow hunter, and it also convinced me there is a benefit to a newer, faster crossbow (see our 2020 Maryland Doe Hunt).
Bunjie III (or Bunjie '21, Bunjie 3.0) is a 2021 Scorpyd Deathstalker, the result of trying various models and looking at dozens of them online for characteristics I liked. It is, in fact, another gift from a different Friend of Bunjie, which goes to show how important Friends of Bunjie are to this channel and what an impact they can have. Although I really liked what I saw online, I would not have even tried a Scorpyd given that no shops near me carried them. This was sent to me new, free of charge...with the only stipulation being that if I didn't like it, I would send it back to that FOB. After spending some time with it, I am convinced it is, in fact, the right crossbow for me in 2021, and I look forward to showcasing this crossbow in future videos.
So, I am not sponsored by these companies. I am sponsored by Friends of Bunjie! (I'm not asking for gifts whatsoever--please don't feel like you should send me stuff! But I do appreciate the support I've received over the years! I'm just trying to express my appreciation for that.)
Once again, this channel is about my love of the crossbow, hunting, and the outdoors. I hunt exclusively with the crossbow. I love it. Sure, like a lot of kids, I started hunting with a good ol' Model '94 Winchester .30-30 back in the 80's, but drifted away from hunting when I went off to college, law school, and started a family. As my daughter got older, I regained my interest in the outdoors, and I consider myself lucky to hunt on the same property today that I hunted on as a kid. I got the Excalibur Axiom crossbow in 2010 and I haven't looked back. This channel is the result of combining my interest in filming and hunting...
...and music, too! My related channel, Yankee Militia, showcases my music. Some of the music is hunting-related, so check that out, too! The soundtrack for this channel is provided by my band, so the two are intertwined. The albums "Live Free or Kill" and "Zombies Gotta Eat, Too!" are available on Amazon.com and elsewhere. A third album is in the works.
All Hail Bunjie!
--Rich Wilson, Death by Bunjie
What am awesome video you put together. The way you cut it together really helps sum up the rambling I sometimes find myself doing. I love seeing hunters talking about topics that impact us and the comments on this video are all so constructive! If you ever want to talk again let me know, or if you're in the area stop by and we'll test out some bows and x-bows against the deer drop simulator.
*an
Please do this! Fascinating stuff!
I'm not going to read all the comments, however if you shoot a deer when it's head is down feeding it stands a much better chance of ducking your arrow than it does if it's head is up. If the head is down and it's feeding it can use the weight of its head as a counterbalance to lower its body more quickly than if it's head was up. Just something to consider. Be well keep making your videos I enjoy them immensely.
Yes, your right! When the head goes up, the center of gravity is the same but the vitals are lower.
Interesting theory. Any evidence to support it? I always figured a feeding deer is a better target because it is probably more relaxed than one standing an alert.
@@jeffsalsieder640 No. I've seen it expressed several times on videos. I did watch one video that was about a scientific as one could be with "Ducking" the arrow, it certainly not something that can be done in the lab.
However... The logic does makes sense to me.
If you had to just duck as fast as you could that's one thing, but imagine if you had a rope attached to the ground and someone told you to duck and you could pull on that rope you could do it faster.
I'll confirm this theory with my own personal experience after hours of reviewing camera footage. I missed a deer last year high (shoulder blades) because he was able to duck it. You can watch the path of the arrow and at the last second he ducks just enough. Previous year I killed a buck with a lung shot, just above heart, while his head was up. This is counterintuitive to what we think will happen. If the head is up in alert we think they will be more likely to pounce, although true, I think they are even more alert, poised to duck and bolt while their head is down. I agree with Crockett.
Aim low anticipating that "startle" the deer has at the sudden sound.
Watch deer in a thunderstorm or windstorm when branches are cracking and falling. They have that same initial startled reaction...loading the legs to flee, but uncertain if they need to flee or where to head when they do in that initial half second after release.
When I was on a sensor planting mission and long range reconnaissance patrol, way back in the late 70’s, we always depended on becoming a part of the ambience of nature. We listened like animals listen, as you described. We even learned to use our sense of smell. I’m a much better hunter because of my military experiences from over 42 years ago.
Can shoot a lot of deer from a covered fighting position. Your scent drops in the hole. Any grunt knows deer don't sense you when you're standing armpit deep in a hole.
Add a propane heater for keeping arthritic joints and grandkids toasty warm and dry if it's nasty out.
Solid
The trouble is
The animals get a vote after you shoot.
And some animals are hyped up
Some aren’t - rutting buck will be out of his mind. Late season doe on a calm day - haha - ninja!
The amount and direction of the jump is completely unpredictable.
They’ve been avoiding dying 24/7 - 365 their whole lives.
Good point for sure, some hyped up, some not! Does in PA are on alert and stare at the blind, spot movement in treestands, you name it. But when I see suburban deer in Maryland in the early season they couldn't care less, practically wave at passing cars LOL. And yeah, rutting bucks are on a mission...Bunjie is not their chief concern. 😄
You mean the deer doesn’t stand still like a 3D target? Please, say it isn’t so. Once I quit worrying about speed and changed my aiming point my success rate went way up. Aiming farther forward than what most think is ideal and at the lower 1/3 is where it’s at. Let’s not forget to beef up the arrow system and use sharp real broadheads too. It makes a huge difference.
You know HUE ?
HUE DAMN RIGHT 😂
I love your analysis on subjects for consideration, this one is most excellent data.
With a fast crossbow I generally lean toward more arrow speed with less arrow arc path and an expandable like swhacker, they truly fly like a field point for me, many many deer down, if that stops working for me or I'm hunting something requiring a heavier arrow/fixed blade, I will adjust accordingly.
When I was younger I would try to defeat every argument against what I was doing that was actually working for me, hybrid heads, heavy arrows etc.etc., it did not work for me, if it's not broke don't fix it.
Flat trajectory, less reaction time, major wound channel, deer are not that hard to shoot through, hitting the shoulder blade has not been a problem at all.
Thank you sir, great channel.
Bill Liggett
Great, detailed video, Rich! This is something that some of us aren't thinking about all the time. I also agree that the reaction time of the deer depends on how edgy or comfortable the deer already is at the time of the shot.
Rich, I think this is one of my favorite videos that you have created! I hit rewind at least 20 times on this video. Very good information and I will ponder it for a while. It is time to break out the chronograph again. Thank you
I don't often comment on TH-cam videos, but I did want to thank you for making such informative crossbow centered content. I'm getting ready for a deer hunting this weekend and it'll be my first time hunting with a crossbow. Your videos have been a great help in getting prepared for this trip. So, thanks and cheers!
Awesome good luck!
Thank you Rich. Really hoping my son (12yr) gets first deer with crossbow this fall.
Best of luck for your son!! I’m in the same “boat” with my 15 year old! The more their in the woods the better chance they can get a deer BUT also a better chance their staying out of trouble!! Good luck to y’all this coming season!!!!!
In regards to deer dropping i did noticed that if the deer’s head is down they do drop more faster than if their head was up. Must be engaging that backstrap muscles and thus using the head as a pendulum to push their chest down and out if the way of the arrow. So actually faster than gravity. However at 400 fps it should be a done deal. I however gage if the deer is on edge i aim one or two inch lower than usual depends on the distance. Good vid
Yeah I was thinking that lifting their feet up when they hear the bow could help their body drop faster then gravity. Like if an Olympic diver is falling and accelerating they can move their head down faster then the normal acceleration of gravity if they move their legs up, that’s my guess as to how it works. I’ll try to find this one video of a doe ducking an arrow it’s amazing.
@@BackyardBroadheads I think that is the right track- They definitely duck faster than just the acceleration from gravity
Aim small, miss small.
ALWAYS shoot for the lower 1/3 of the vitals.
Speed indeed does help, but by aiming low your odds are greater for a vital hit if the animal hears the shot and gathers itself to run.
Over the years I have noticed when a deer is casually walking just inside 20yds, I wait for the front leg to extend forward and tuck the bolt where you can sometimes see impact and obviously the deer can hardly react. But a stationary deer just a few yards further amazes me how fast they can drop for sure.
@ I love your channel and I really enjoy your videos. They are extremely well produced and very educational for us crossbow hunters. I've been a crossbow hunter for over 20 years now. Due to a very bad injury I had to hang up traditional and compound bow hunting. Some time has passed since you've dropped this video. I purchased a Ten-Point RS 440 Havoc a year and a half ago. That bow has been chronographed at 420 ft per second. I downed 2 deer last bow season with it. The first was at 57 yards and the second deer was at 64 yards. This year I picked up the new Nitro 505 from Ten-Point and I killed a doe yesterday at 63 yards. I live in Ohio and I'm literally 5 minutes away from Ten-Point headquarters and The Hunter's Outlet. That's basically a sister company that sells all of Ten-Points products. They also have an indoor range that's open to the public, and it's also where all the products get tested and chronographed. Not only by the makers of Ten-Point crossbows, but by most individuals who purchase them. Ten-Point crossbows are pricey no doubt but so are the new Ravens. But I want the best equipment in my hands...PERIOD! I've not shot any Raven crossbows. But I know that from the research I've done they do make a great product. Could you please let me know what has you sold on the Raven instead of the Ten-Point. Is it simply the price difference? And have you ever shot the Ten-Points Nitro 505? I would really like to speak with someone who's honestly had a thorough experience shooting both Ten-Points Nitro 505, and Ravens R500E.
I don't have any Ravins FYI I am an Excalibur guy and Bunjie 3.0 is a Scorpyd. I have a lot of respect for Ten Point and Ravin though, althpugh I dont want a crank. Congratulations on the deer!
@@Deathbybunjie ty for the congratulations and thank you for the quick response. I really appreciate that. This video was immediately followed by the video of you with the Scorpyd and the Burris Oracle scope. Well now I know and like GI Joe says, knowing is half the battle 😉. Binge watching all of your videos. I just got done with the video of you and your daughter shooting the broadheads into the tire. Once again great stuff. I hope you have a very successful season as well. Again I love your channel and you've really educated me on many things. Keep up the awesome content...PLEASE! Your new subscriber Rob from Ohio.
I hunt with a slower than most crossbow. I hunt as if if is a compound bow. I don't hunt in areas where I have more than a 20yd shot. My furthest shot was 17yds last year. Should be a good week of debate, and insight.
For myself the entire idea of archery is the excitement and challenge of being close to the game. Why I have been satisfied with same bow 30+ years. The new bow iam considering is 340 fps but I still go 30yds max personally. I find 30yds for turkey shotgun and 60 yes ideal for smooth bore slugs. For me long distance shooting may lead to not enjoying the experience of the hunt as much.
I really enjoyed this, I don't hunt with a crossbow, I have friends that do. I hunt with a traditional Recurve and longbow for the past 35 years. I have my own land that I hunt on. I began to notice something that parallels what you are saying. I shoot at 20 yards and I am pretty good at that distance I can keep my arrows on an 8" paper plate. Out in the field, I have been missing at that range, yet if I took a 15-yard shot, I would have venison on the ground. I got a very very long archery deer season, from mid-September to the last day in January. Including November and December rifle season. I think the deer not only hear the noise but sees the bow movement( it is a spring ) and the arrow and arrow noise as it flies thru the air. I hit at the short distances because the deer do not have enough time, the arrow gets to the spot before the deer can react to the shot. Now we get to see in the video what is really going on. It was very frustrating to me and my answer I didn't practice enough or I don't shoot accurately enough all the while there was the wall and in my case, 20-22 yards, and inside of that was the sweet spot. Very good presentation. How far to shoot well that is a personal thing, I know how far I would shoot with a bow and rifle. For somebody else well it may be to far or they can accurately hit way further. Oh, and I am not giving up my Recurve and Longbow I've been shooting them both since '86! 50 lb draw on both.
That's awesome, quite a history with that! Thanks for sharing this.
Good information for the masses. I have recorded shots coming in and yes those vanes make a lot of noise. I try to keep my shots as far as .25 seconds will take them. You usually have that much time before a deer drops enough to make a difference. For me that’s about 23 yards.
I have found my yarding with slower bows was extremely important, but there was twice now when the deer came in so fast I had no time to yardidge the deer, I had to guess, I was wrong and shot high, I went to a faster bow and now my yardidge between 20 and 40 yards doesn’t matter I still hit the vitals. For me a faster bow works better.
Kind of like how when we were kids we would use the wrapper from a twinkie , spread it out keeping it tight then blow on it , then it would make a very loud whistle . All From a plastic wrapper .
Good advice & good videos. I like that your not plugging deer hunting junk. Very informative.
This " head up head down" theory is interesting. You would think that a deer with its head up would be more alert to danger and then more able to react to sensed danger. Good stuff!
Quite informative thanks, i love watching these types of video's, Sadly its illegal in the uk to deer hunt with a crossbow ( until a shtf scenario and meat is needed 😢 ) but majority of deer around where i live is pretty urban with main roads close by and factory's which are quite noisy, and i pass multiple deer daily on dog walks , id love to be able to use my 375 fps compound crossbow for hunting some deer, you guys in USA are so lucky lol
THAT makes a lot of sense!! Will likely prevent me from even thinking about a 40 yard shot again, with my 320 fps crossbow.
Or, ...start researching the 400+ fps'ers?
Thanks Darren and Rich!
Sound travels 1,125.33 fps. Crossbows don't shoot anywhere near that fast. Speed isn't everything, however. Good arrow flight & penetration are just as important. Wanting more speed/kinetic energy may justify a new crossbow purchase. A person needs some reason to upgrade, right? Especially, If you want to push 2" blades through deer. How fast is fast enough? I think the crossbow world needs to be careful here. A compound bow hunter like myself may start to question a 500 fps crossbow that uses an electric motor to cock itself. Rifles are not muzzleloaders. Rifles aren't allowed during the muzzleloader season in my state. Likewise, crossbows are not compound/recurve bows. Be careful what you wish for!
I think compound bows have sort of peaked. Today's bows may be quieter or smoother to draw, but the top speeds from compound bows have sort of peaked some time ago. Crossbows may need to do the same. Especially when cranks and electric motors are being used.
compound bow hunters already dislike xbow hunters, what's new? You think i'm going to tell the manufacturer "hey, gimp my xbow make it shoot under 500 fps or Driftless Hunter will "question" it". Are you daft? jealous for sure though. NOOO U CANT HAVE A XBOW SHOOT FASTER THAN ME THATS NOT FAIIRRRRR
Long time compound bow hunter here but never hunted with a crossbow l bought my first crossbow last week it's a barnett xp380 can't wait to take it deer hunting a lot of good information in you're video mr death by bunjie
Awesome good luck!
Great video. I have spent a great deal of time thinking about this very topic. From my own experience hunting with a compound bow shooting around 320 fps, I have noticed deer out past 40 yards seem to duck far less often and sometimes not at all. The research presented in this video makes the assumption that every deer is going to react the same. I have taken a couple animals way out past 40 yards that didn't move at all until the arrow hit them. It would be very interesting if Darren's testing equipment could be placed at the target and register and compare decibel levels of the bow going off at different distances as well as the noise level created by the arrows. I think it is a safe assumption that the longer the distance, the quieter the initial thump of the bow and the longer the distance the quieter the arrow is as it slows down. For interest sake, compare the noise of the bow from an open environment like a tree stand vs from inside a pop up ground blind and a hard sided blind.
All good points! I think the research is just suggesting fastest reaction possible...definitely true some deer are slower than others. The difference in perceived loudness between your compound and the typical crossbow is immense btw. Although my new Scorpyd is pretty "quiet" in comparison to our Excaliburs.
Thanks for making that video. I knew there was a good excuse to get a new cross bow for Christmas.
Pick out a good one lol and good luck!
Sorry for using metric units of measurement and calculating very imprecisely and ignoring dynamic changes: the arrow speed is reduced by air friction, the distance travelled by an arrow is longer because the flight path is not straight, etc.
The speed of sound is 343 m / s.
500 FPS is 142 m / s.
Now we calculate a shot from a distance of 50 yards which corresponds to 46 m.
The firing sound reaches the deer in 134 ms, the arrow takes 416 ms for this distance.
The deer has 282 ms to respond.
In reality, the deer has even more time to react, see above.
At 250 FPS the deer already has 564 ms.
Or you just shoot at 25 yards😉
A (cross-)bow that is as quiet as possible and a fast arrow seem to be important for a successful hunt.
Greetings from Germany, where bow hunting is prohibited and buying a Ravin R500 is legal.
THAT was a great video sir! .. I am just getting back out into the woods this coming weekend with my son and his first deer hunt. He purchased a pretty trick compound bow and has been target shooting recently in preparation. I had bow hunted many moons ago with a Bear compound at 70lb draw which was a beast back in the 80's ... lol. I cannot even hold his bow effectively at draw because of bad shoulders, so I decided to jump in and get a crossbow to join him.
I opted for the Assassin 420TD because of dependability and simplicity of a recurve instead of cams and your information just solidified my decision against its little brother the 400TD ... hahaha ,, figured faster would be wiser and you nailed it for me .. many thanks! .... will be picking it up today or tomorrow, so wish us luck!
Late to the party but very useful information thank you. I'm shooting a 10 point Vanguard S440 with a Burris Oracle X scope. I think for me 50 will be my Max.
I can't wait to use my Oracle X afield, good luck to both of us
I remember Dr Grant Woods video on this subject. Thanks for sharing the link. I've been wanting to watch it again.
Every time, nearly without fail, that I've done a doe bleat by mouth, deer will freeze in position, and raise their heads to listen. Train yourself to do this loudly through the shot. Deer are more likely jumping the sound of our approaching arrows than the string. Stand down range sometime, behind a tree next to a target while your buddy shoots. The sound of the arrow in flight is a very noticeable, high pitched 'hiss' to a deer. Matching your bleat to cover the shot and time of flight really works.
I started crossbow hunting in 2008. I started with the Barnett rc150, which killed many deer. Finally upgraded to a ravin r10 last yr. I just want to say thank you for your videos. I find them very informative, also looking to see how the new bungee works out.
I don't have access to the equipment shown, but the safe maximum shooting distance can be calculated. Assuming the deer can drop 3.5" and still hit the kill zone, and that they react in 0.1 seconds the calculations show:
300FPS: 321 Yards
325FPS: 35 Yards
350FPS: 38 Yards
375FPS: 42 Yards
400FPS: 46 Yards
425FPS: 51 Yards
I have these calculations on an excel sheet if someone wants to double check my math. lol Arrow speed loss over distance was assuming 450gr bolts that are 20in long with 3in long, .45in tall fletchings.
This is a GREAT conversation. I've seen Grant Woods' video, as well as numerous others about the subject; your video adds a significant element to the compendium of knowledge about this important subject. Cummings' formula (which I don't believe he mentioned on Dr. Woods' video) alone is worth the price of admission. Thank you!
Much appreciated! With Dr. Woods video he was worried making a general claim like that could muddy up what we were trying to teach. While it isn't perfect for every setup in every situation, it's what I tell new hunters and has helped quite a few understand it isn't their shooting capability that is the only factor in wounding or harvesting an animal.
Great video!! I wish that everyone shooting videos would use a lighted nock.
Thank You for another great video. I truly enjoy your knowledgeable, informative & entertaining videos. Please keep them coming while enjoying the sport we all love. Best of luck this season.
How about recording a bow or crossbow sound and playing it back at the same decibel. That would tell you if it is just the bow or if they continue to hear the arrow.
Happy Monday my Brother .like Always. EXCELLENT JOB. A+
Rich, new crossbow hunter this year and this video, like all your videos, are very informational.
Thanks for that!
Great info..... Glad I'm shooting at 430 and have to worry less.
Good information, begs the question why try quieting a crossbow at the cost of slower speed.
That's a good question indeed
I watch this video “jumping the string”. As often as I can. I have been a waterfowl hunter forever. I took my knowledge of shooting moving game to the archery world. One thing I have learned is if you try to stop a deer for a shot, you just threw out a red flag. The animal is now tense and ready to react
I will say that 98% of all the dozens of deer were walking or dogging a trail in the rut. Relaxed !
I do not recommend this for those that have never bird hunted or even thrown a football to a running receiver! All I can say is once you stop them they are ready to go. Put yourself in their position, and tell me what your reaction is. I can tell you right now, it’s duck down and get ready to run Please try to relate. Being the prey and clueless is about the best shot and recovery ever!! Tried to stop a big ol’ doe once for the shot
I will never do that again. You could see the survival mode kick in immediately 😐
EXCELLENT INFORMATIVE VIDEO. THANKS TO ALL!!
Thank you and thanks for watching!
I've bow hunted almost my whole life with recurve, long bows, compounds and now crossbows....I always like to hit a few inches lower than my point of aim to help account for this. Since I've started doing that my recovery rate for game as doubled. I like to still site in for an exact distance but like to hit 4 inches low at my target destination range. 4 -6 inches is my rule of thumb....take it or leave it but it's worked very well for me. I will let you know how that works for elk this year since I live in Wyoming and 4 of us that are hunting with a crossbows this year all shooting between 409 and 500 fps. We will see what happens
Very good video Rich! It all boils down to speed of sound, deer reaction lag time and bolt/arrow flight time to target! Which all boils down to I am more confident with my assassin 360 at 40 yards than with Jason’s 300 fps axiom Bungie’s cousin lol 😝
Back in the late sixties my dad hunting with a recurve tell the story where the deer ducked under his Arrow. It was either Maryland or Pennsylvania your neck of the woods
Funny to hear people discuss this topic, I've bowhunted 42 years have harvested many white deer , seen my share of string jumping on film, definitely is the sound of the bow plus arrow flying to target, if you slow down the shot you'll see the deers ears pinpoint the source
Something i just thought of.
I'm a gun hunter mostly. I've been using a bow and crossbow for the last 20 years as well, but very limited during the season.
Definitely, the deer's awareness/alertness is playing into this the most. Many times, I've witnessed a hunter miss a deer with his rifle. And the deer doesn't even flinch, even if the bullet hits the ground nearby. And a rifle is several million times louder than any bow.
So just that fact alone, any deer jumping the string, to a bow-shot, had to be more nervous, etc.
maybe! but the point of this video is they only drop so fast--as fast as gravity lets them--and the results are affected by speed.
Rich, very impressive information and scientic testing to boot! Great video!
I wish more hunters with any type of archery equipment would watch this. It would push the hunter to make better range estimates and make ethical shots the norm. I shoot very fast cross bows (My Scorpyd is at 428 fps) and have no problem shooting out to 50 yds IF and only IF the deer is completely calm/unaware. If I accidentally hit the shoulder blade or a rib the velocity and the heavy 440gr + weight of the arrow and fixed blade heavily constructed broadhead drive directly through any and all bones in a deer. I find my arrows deeply buried in the ground after complete pass through.
Was hoping you would cover this topic. Deer pretty much always react to a crossbow firing. I've learned through experience, any good broadside shot under 20 yards, I don't need to worry. Broadside shots over 20, now you need to start thinking about them dropping and twisting away. My first 30 yard shot and kill on a doe with my crossbow was almost a lost deer. Aimed for the heart, just managed to catch both lungs high and way back, she really dropped and lunged forward. Now, depending on circumstances, a 30 yard shot, I'll aim 3-4 inches below the heart, and end up putting my arrow right through that ❤️.
Hunting with a Parker Ambusher crossbow, 315fps, 20" arrows, 100 grain muzzy trocar. 5 years now. Trying out the one piece montec g3 125 grain broadheads this season.
I shoot a 2009 Excalibur Ibex from the original flagship line (Pheonix, Ibex, Vortex, Exocet, Exomax, Equinox... and so on), and although large and not too fast......damn is it accurate. I can put 5 bolts in an apple sized circle at 50 yds while sitting on the ground with the bow over my knee. Took a doe in 2019 - 30 yds quartering towards, broke the shoulder, went through diaphram and exited on opposite side belly near far leg. I'd be real interested in a micro take down Excalibur though, could put a good mobile stalk on big game with that.
Very cool information. I love this stuff. The Whitetail is such an amazing creature. I continue to be awestruck by them every year. Sometimes, especially when they’re frustrating me, I think…it’s just a dumb rat with antlers…(I know it’s not a rat)…but I really do admire them. I think this science is brilliant and fun! The downside of it is that it always gives me one more second of pause to get in the way of when my gut is telling me to shoot!
Thanks! Keep it up.
This video is very interesting and informative. Thanks for your hard work.
Most attows including crossbow bolts have some degree of helical or offset fletch, they are loud at high speeds! Get behind a tree or building and let someone shoot a arrow by you and listen, deer react by falling and pushing away from the sound of danger. Thx for the video enjoyed y
Great video again Rich! Great idea bringing other experts in to share their knowledge and experience! Ok, my take on the moral of this story is to aim at the heart and depending on the speed of your crossbow will limit your comfortable shooting distance.
Indeed!
helpful video in understanding what actually goes on
Great video with good solid information. Will watch again.
Love the work you do to bring us the best info out there !!!
The extra speed is a benefit for sure, but if you look at high speed camera depicting deers reaction to a bow shot, at 20 yards. You would be hard-pressed, to compensate for the speed of sound, and a deer's reaction time, if you were using a 38 Special revolver at around 800 ft per second. It happens that quick. You can do things to minimize the drop, what they call jumping string, which is actually ducking the arrow. Stand on the ground with your legs straight and try to jump. You can't. You have to bend your knees before you can do that, and the deer are no different. They have to go down before they can jump. The speed of sound is a given, the deer's reaction time, is not,, but their hearing time is a given.
I have more on this topic, a video on maximum effective range, coming soon! Thanks for your interest.
the speed of sound is a constant. The source of that sound is localised at the xbow.
Excellent video Rich, I appreciate it for sure.
Speed certainly has a synergistic relationship with energy, but accuracy as well. We can shoot paper targets all day, but when we shoot at live game it is a factor of how fast our arrow arrives. Most of us try to find a balance between that synergistic triangle of accuracy, energy and speed. I wonder how many truly recognize this. We say that accuracy is number one. Certainly this is true, but to what degree speed plays in is part of the balance.
this is very interesting, thanks for putting this together guys
Rich, I want to hear the sound of a bolt at the target. Can you please set that up?
I’ve heard the sound of bullets in the air and it is not pleasant. But I’ve never heard the sound of a bolt.
I have noticed on hunting videos that they seem to react faster after someone grunts at them to make them stop. That sound seems to put them on alert, which makes their reaction time faster. So while grunting may make them stop for the shot, if it is not a short shot, it may ruin your results. So don't grunt unless you have to, not routinely as I think some do.
Awesome vid bud,,,,,,im shooting a 370 fps,,,,and was always kinda curious about taking a 40 yard shot,,,,,as my max distance,,,,,,,my wondering has been basically answered,,,,,now im more comfortable taking the shot if i had too now
I retrict my shots to 40yds and in whether I'm using a compound bow or a crossbow - much closer when using the bow as it's slower.
I often line up my shot right along the chest line, but about 2" under and just attherear 3rd of the shoulder bone.
Both of my rigs are loud; and I always anticipate that the deer is going to duck.
Usually, I can get them to meet my broadhead halfway. Just my 2 cents on it.
Restrict*
Thanks so much for your videos. I got an excalibur crossbow for Christmas 10 years ago. Unfortunately, I stopped hunting the next year. Last year, I started hunting again in rifle season.
This year, the last day of February, I ruptured my distal biceps tendon at work, on my dominant arm, and had to have it reattached at the end of March. I'm healing very well but I'm not 100% sure right now that I would be consistent enough with a compound bow for me to be comfortable hunting with it. I'm so thankful I still have my excalibur and have the legal ability to hunt with it in PA. I've sighted it in and have boltcutter broadheads hitting a dime out to 30 yards. I haven't gotten a chance to take it out but having never shot a crossbow prior to sighting mine in. I'm seriously impressed. I'm very excited to get into the mountains and dust off the skills I honed for years in the deer woods. Keep up the great work sir. Your videos are priceless!
Wow good luck out there!
As an experiment why don't you put a camera that records both sound and video next to a target at 10, 20 30 and 40 yards with the camera pointing at the shooter. Shoot at the target and see what it records sound wise. I would do it myself but all I have is a cell phone with a camera.
Thank you, again.
Ravin bows are crazy nice! and crazy expensive. I'd still love to have one!
Also I have to say from my observance the farther a deer is away from said noise the less it reacts if someone sneaks up behind you and says boo your reaction is quick but if someone set off a firecracker at 100 yards your reaction is lessened however the arrow speed slightly changes at the longer distance the reaction from the sound of a bow is far less at a longer distance
Great information brother 😀👌
By the way, it sounds like Mr Cummings is describing the Ravin R10.
The R10 is advertised at 400 FPS.
More often than not, ravens will come out of the box producing velocity that is higher than advertised.
Even though the velocity is advertised at 400 FPS, A great many owners report velocities as high as 415 FPS. This is not an unusual occurrence. Raven guarantees their velocity. It may go over but it WILL NOT be under. That’s Ravin..
Ravin does have a good reputation for that for sure
I love my excaliber bulldog 440 I have 2 arrow set ups 1 is basicly the factory 18"bolt with a 150 grn grim reaper x bow head or a 20" fmj with 120 grn brass insert and 150 grain slick trick x bow broad head.
I went the faster route some 10 years ago. The bow was a Barnett Ghost 400. What I learned. Deer absolutely can absolutely duck even an arrow eclipsing 400fps. I had a doe duck a full 3 inches at 36yds, almost becoming a nonlethal hit. In fact the only deer that did not duck on the shot was a rutted up 160 class buck that simply looked in the direction of the shot. I held low and missed low. Bummed I missed him, but more relieved that I missed him clean.
Last year, my Tenpoint malfunctioned on the shot. The deer looked around like "what the heck was that?". None bounded away, and went back to feeding. I'm in the camp that the arrow, which sounds like a gigantic bumble bee racing towards you, is more likely to cause the deer to drop and turn away. What does one do if all the sudden a big gigantic buzzing noise is heard. That's right, one drops and turn away. Only something supersonic can beat those reflexes.
The sound of Bunjie going off is louder than any "bee" I've ever heard.
@@Deathbybunjie @Death by Bunjie My TenPoint literally sounded like a shotgun going off. Also, I've experienced a tree falling or a gun going off nearby, deer may go stiff and look around but none run off in a panic. Ranch Fairy had an excellent video where it's demonstrated that the animals (hogs) did not react until the arrow was within 10 yds.
Set your phone/camera approximately approximately 10yds from the target. What you'll record a is a "thump ZZZZZ". The arrow is much louder than than the bow. You are holding the bow on the shot. Of course it's sounds loud. But that arrow is louder to the deer, and gets louder asit approaches.
Something we haven’t addressed. The string jump. Some deer jump over the arrow, causing lower hits.
I truly believe some deer detect the flight of the arrow before it arrives.
Viva Ravin……
That was some good information now I need to take a trip back to my Archery Shop where I bought my Crossbow and see what speed my Bow is shooting . I know it says it`s shooting 415 fps and that was probably with Factory Arrows and that`s not what I`m using mine are Wal-Mart arrows with 100 gr. Rage . Thanks Rich
Oh yeah that'll get it done!
I have to bring up the fact that the hanging Ballon is very teardrop shaped but once it is released it returns to a more even round shape very rapidly from the elastisity of Ballon actually making the vital area smaller and that snapping movement accelerates the Ballon in speed towards the ground just saying
🤔 Great informative video Rich once again. I am gonna go get some 🍿 now and enjoy the comments that are sure to be coming in. 😉 😁
🤣
I wonder if they have done any further research with types of arrows, weight, types of fletching vanes (and orientation) to “lessen” the sound of the arrow in flight. I’ve been shooting several Scorpyd crossbows. I’ve always kept everything inside of 30 yards and have not had a deer duck out of a kill shot.
Scorpyd doesn't make slow stuff lol
Good content, thanks for sharing this information.
I have been saying divide by 10 for years for maximum effective range. Couple of things to point out. Even at the level of a professional athlete, my opinion, deer can react faster. Not drop faster, gravity effect is the same for all, and sound travels the same speed to the target regardless of what the target is, but I think they can physically respond faster to the bow and arrow noise than a human. Also, I have shot at deer on film at longer distance, beyond thirty yards, and the deer did not react to the bow sound on film. There was an obvious delay, and as the arrow approached them, they reacted to the arrow sound. Slow motion video revealed this. In addition, deer sometimes don't react, AT ALL. I shot and killed two different bucks, one with a recurve, the other with a crossbow, the 2nd one on film, and they never moved a muscle till the arrow hit them. Windy environments, noisy creeks, farm machinery, or highway noise, can cover the sound of you weapon. Even people in the big bore air gun world have discovered that animals can react to the sound of their air rifle before their slug hits it. A big bore gun shooting a heavy slug at 800 fps, sound travels at 1100 fps, and they are trying to make a 100 yard shot. 800 divided by 10 is 80 yards maximum effective range. Ha.
This rule certainly isn't for every projectile. In fact guns, which fire supersonic projectiles, will strike the target before it even hears anything! Many non-linear curves can be considered to be linear over a short range. The range of 250-350 is the area the rule of thumb is within a margin of error the fps/10 works. This covers most bows and many x-bows. On either side of that it won't give you a "close enough" target distance. Great observation!
High speed, low speed, light arrows, heavy arrows, compound, recurve, reverse draw. Things change with everything almost as fast you change your socks. I'm still trying to find my perfect setup. Is that at all possible?
I have referenced that Dr. Woods video in a few of my videos. At one point Dr. Woods's research showed that if the deer has its head down, the deer can drop faster than one with its head up.
That Rule of Thumb sounds very good to me. Even though Parker (rated at 350 fps) has a "100 Yard Scope" by the time my arrow/bow would get to a deer 100 yards away, the deer would be in the next county.
Are you able to differentiate between the different reticles with that many? That's my problem.
@@Deathbybunjie They are labeled and lighted. But as you know I'm mostly interested in the top 3, 20-40
Well no. Shooting down hill wouldn’t speed the crossbow up. The crossbow will remain stationary regardless to direction of shooting. The arrow is the only aspect that travels any reasonable distance with speed. The string moves, but not a long distance, just a consistent distance and speed with each shot.
I’m kidding. I know what ya meant.great video! Was very helpful.
Lower profile, stiff, smaller vanes with little to no offset will be about as quiet as an arrow can get. The problem with that is broadhead control out of most bows, especially if shooting fixed blades. There is one bow that doesn't require a lot of vane to stabilize an arrow after launch...🤔 One more advantage of a Swat. Less noise to alert a deer. 😉 Maybe a vane noise test video Rich? I have some Bohning Heat 2.5 and some vanetec 3.15s vanes fletched up you could compare to blazers. 🤔
I do like that Swat!
@@Deathbybunjie I should be getting my X1 next week. You are gonna have to shoot that and the XP and see what ya think. 👍
I can understand the arrow/bolt making sound while in flight because of the weight and speed of the arrows
Their experiment is interesting although their results could have more easily been predicted with some simple mathematical models. The physics of arrow flight is a fairly well-studied topic among university researchers, and there's thousands of hours of combined footage out there of deer reacting in varying states of alertness to the shot of a bowhunter.
On average, it takes just 0.16 seconds from the time the hunter shoots to the time the deer begins ducking. The average hunting shot takes place at around 20 yards. Sound travels ~1100 ft/s, giving the deer a reaction time of as little as just one-tenth of a second, immediately after which its vitals could begin free falling. It is the hunter's responsibility, on any deer they shoot, to allow for a response as swift as this.
If we further assume the arrow with broadhead has a drag coefficient of 2.0, a diameter of 0.344", and weighs in at a healthy 450 grains, then what we find is that its average transit speed out to any distance will drop 1% for every 8 yards.
If we stick with the recommended maximum 4" of vitals drop to ensure the most ethical shot possible, then it is fairly straightforward via trial and error to work out the theoretical maximum ethical range. For a 300 fps crossbow (the original Bunjie), that range comes out to be 32 yards. For a 350 fps crossbow (Bunjie 2.0), it jumps to 39 yards. For the magical 400 fps breakthrough (Bunjie 3.0), 47 yards. For a 450 fps crossbow, 56 yards, and the Ravin R500, when finally in the hands of hunters, will hold the crown at 65 yards. Notice that the ethical range does not simply increase in a linear fashion with speed. Instead, it's a quadratic relationship.
I did these calculations for Dr. Woods. He stated he preferred an apparatus as most viewers prefer the "I need to see it to believe it" approach. I created an animation where you could input arrow speed, arrow weight, and distance and it would create an animation you could click through to watch the arrow and deer drop. We could not get it hosted to the GrowingDeer website in a manner they could include advertisements on the side so it never got posted. The physics is pretty straight forward, the only variable comes from what the deer does once it is loaded, push forward, turn away, hit its chest off the ground. I also used kinetic tracking programs to get the drop rate of a deer based on known distances, as they can't quite drop at the speed of gravity given the way muscles relax by motor unit recruitment. This stuff seems to be a bit too boring for most viewers. I've contemplated using my channel to do this sort of stuff but just haven't had the time yet. You might have just convinced me.
Good observation on the distance you can shoot vs the speed of the bow/x-bow not being linear. The rule of thumb is mostly for bow and arrows. I assume you are going to school for physics or a physics based discipline (engineering or the like)? The big differentiator is the speed of the arrow/bolt compared to the speed of sound. At 1100 fps (or a little more thanks to air resistance) the limit you can shoot before the deer can hear and respond approaches infinity. And some people say calculus has no use in everyday life!
Good info. Thank you for sharing.
THANK YOU. what a great video. So here is a question. I haven't started hunting with a crossbow yet. I am getting educated before I buy one. Here is my question. Does a deer hear a crossbow at 50 yards?
Less than they would at 20 but it definitely is still a thing, it depends on a lot of things like whether they're on to you or not also
Remember the high pitch deer things that went on your car to keep deer from running out in front of your car same sounds
You realize those were a joke, right? Completely ineffective and that's why they USED to sell them...if those worked they'd come standard on every car in PA 🤣😅😆
It was calculated that deer have two tenths of a second reaction time. I calculated how far the arrow/bolt would go in that 2/10's second and that would be my effective range. I figured that after the deer starts to move then all bets are off. It's just the way I do it. Btw - great videos.
So you are saying that a deer wouldn't be able to duck the arrow at 70 yards if shot at a speed of 350fps? 2/10's × 350 = 7) (.2 x 350fps = 70). It most definitely will, and that math is not even close to being an accurate way of making an ethical shot. Even 50yards from a 350fps crossbow is pushing it, and the deer will likely have dropped several inches by the time the srrow reaches it.
Your calculation is right but it's feet and not yards. A 350 fps arrow would travel 70 feet (23 yds.) in two renths of a second, 350 feet in a full second.
Head down don't shoot.
Also, if it's windy and they're 40 plus they don't hear the bow, but they do hear the arrow. So correct answer is they do duck both the bow and the arrow. Everything is situational.
Excellent video Rich
Great video and the difference between just 50 FPS is something. But I do believe deer use their back muscles to pull down their bodies which is faster than gravity. Similar to the way a boxer bobs and weaves. Nevertheless great video and certainly gives one something to hang their hat on
They can't "pull down their bodies" because can't grab anything to pull on though...it's all gravity. "Ducking" requires them to drop first. Love the boxing analogy too--I'm a huge boxing fan! But it's kinda the same. Tyson bent his legs, ducked under and sprang up on the inside...some of that was muscle to bend at torso but bending legs and dropping required gravity. Fortunately for him, nobody throws faster than gravity...he wasn't facing arrows haha. When we're talking specifically about deer "ducking" the string, we're talking about deer dropping before the arrow gets there, and the ducking is all gravity. Fortunately for us, deer can't bend at the waist either haha.
@@Deathbybunjie I used to watch hunting shows but they've become scripted and head banging metal background music turned me off. And I'm a metal guy, lol. Your show is truly a breath of fresh air. Regular guy, real experiences just like we all encounter in the woods, and your daughter is such a nice kid, she's a great part of the show.
While I agree with the statement that your not saying that every one should go out and take long shots I do find theres some missing info in this. What this video doesnt mention is 1 if the deer had its head up or down. Head up adds less momentum than head down because they cant use their head to incereas the drop rate of their body. 2 this also doesnt take into account changing out stock bolts/arrows or increasing bolt/arrow weight to 1 help quiet down the bow 2 take tress off the limbs and 3 create a little better FOC and a little better flight stabilization. 3 the fact that while most bows say they may reach "up to" a stated speed on the box with stock bolts 10% actually do reach those "up to" listed speed. 4 how loud the noise level is. A faster but louder bow is going to creat a bigger reaction then a slower quiter bow. A deer may or may not react to one bow over another baised on the level of noise it creates (doutfull crossbows will have this luck sorry guys lol). And last but not least all of these factor into a shot on a totaly calm deer (which I hope every one is able to shoot at lol) and wind conditions on that bolt/arrow. As any type of archer be it compound, crossbow or trad its up to us to take the most ethical shot and the best way to do that is to limit distance of a shot. While a shot may be possible in "theory" it does not mean that in practical use that its ethical. Yes he said that the bolt could get there at 40 and probly even 50 yards in the test but whats not factored in is everything stated above. Grants bow is "slow" because he shoots 55lbs with a heavy arrow and a shorter draw length (I wanna say around 28" with close to a 450gr or heavier arrow). He could switch out to a 400gr arrow and bump up to 60lbs and pick up a lot more speed. But it comes with more noise. These are just things to think about.
I really liked this video and 98 percent of this makes sense, however, I have a small issue with the gravity evaluation. Now I am not disputing how gravity work and how things accelerate, but with a deer, yes I agree that they INITIALLY use gravity to drop/jump the string, however, there is going to be a limit. They are gonna use gravity to initially drop, then their muscles are going to get to a ready point (ability to bound forward) and the fall is going to stop. So the drop of 6 inches and the 10+ does not make sense. If that were the case, the deer would drop completely to the ground and that is not what their are posturing to do. They are posturing to bounce the hell away from their current location so they are dropping with gravity to a muscle loading phase, then bounding forward. 6 inches may be plausible for sure but 10 plus is silly, like I said, their is going to be a stopping point of that initial drop before they spring forward. Keep the videos coming, I've learned a lot. Take care.
I think the 10" is based on Dr. Grant Woods' experience and observations...he had video of one doe dropping that far, it's referenced in the video. That's probably the high end, and that's why their experiment stops at 10".
I expected to hear some discussion regarding whether or not the deer is relaxed or on alert. I have personally witnessed the degree of the deer dropping based on this consideration. Also, what about shot angle (tree stand vs ground blind)?
Alert deer vs not alert matters for sure but both can duck. Angle discussion is part of other videos but angle from a treestand is tougher of course.
Thank you for the vid . I believe you because you seem to be honest
Awesome!!! Thank you.
Looking for your video where you get bunjie JR?
I think this might be the first one... th-cam.com/video/gbdmI0n3-lQ/w-d-xo.html