My bet is that for any bow hunter that's honest with themselves, that this has happened at least once. You're right, once you alert the deer, either by scent, sight or sound as in stopping them from walking to get a shot, that deer is primed to react at the slightest movement or sound. I've learned to really avoid any shots past 25 yards if I sense any kind of alertness from the deer. I also tend to aim low just from experiences I've had with deer dropping. Great video with examples.
I agree, but I think, based on my experience, that they drop at least a bit on almost every shot. As you note, the ones past 25 yards show the greatest result because the deer has time to drop farther.
@@bill-winke Anther thing to look out for is that a deer can drop faster than normal if their head is low. They can swing their head up to get more force down on their back, so i'd almost prefer shooting an alert deer with his head up before I shoot a deer walking with it's head down.
Actually studies have shown a deer with its head down can and will drop faster that a deer with its head up. The deer throwing its head up helps its body drop faster and further. This has been proven throu slow motion video !
As someone who shoots trad bows and compounds there is a night and day difference in how a deer reacts with a longbow vs compound. So I do think a bow could be quiet enough to not trigger a reaction. I’ve got multiple shots at deer with trad bows. That hasn’t ever happened with a compound. Just something to think about.
The head was down on a lot of shots in this video. Wait for the head to be up for the shot. Head up limits the deers ability to move the kill zone. They can only drop at the speed of gravity. With the head down, they can fling their head up while dropping their front legs. They can significantly change the kill zone in a head down orientation. I also try to wait for the close front leg to be forward to open up the kill zone, so I can aim more forward away from the liver. Happy hunting!
Happened to me with the deer of my life so far last year. All odds were against me other than the fact he was there. 30 yards on a dead silent night semi alert with his head down, I put it right behind his leg on the belly line and he hit the ground like a sack of potatoes. Must've clipped his back straps as we trailed hi for 200 yards on decent blood the it totally stopped. Had hair fat and solid meat on the arrow, little to no blood. 2 weeks later he was shot again by a neighbor with a crossbow back in the guts and he was never found. That next spring we mowed the food plot and hit a body with the tractor, looked around and found his shed to perfectly match the hole on his head. Was a tough winter but it's crazy to think he lived possibly another 2½ months after his last injury in a pretty brutal winter in mimnesota. Good news is I have one picture of an almost exactly identical deer on camera in August, hes got some offspring around my area I can only hope I get a second chance at one in his bloodline. Was an estimated 145 in 8 point, perfectly symmetrical. Hoping his son surpasses him
Yes, that works well if you have the experience. It just doesn't work for everyone as the skill is not universal - not everyone can do it. So for us to shoot at walking deer on the videos is going to encourage the wrong behavior. If you have the practiced skill and timing to hit lungs on a walking deer, that is better than stopping them. Good input.
Bill, thank u cuz I know the amount of editing that film was. I was once in a wooded area in mid-December living in a fish house with only propane for power. I was dropped off on a logging road & I told my uncle who was going ice fishing not to come back for 6 days. With these conditions I would be on stand 1 hour after sun up. On the 5th morning a good track by the spot I was hunting that morning was fresh just b4 I arrived. Midday I figured that I needed to get down & try to cut off that deer returning from eating in a nice cedar swamp. It did & I was on the ground. When u r level on the ground with the deer it complicates things. So I aimed low @ 20 yards & waited until it was 17 & shot low. Only movement on the doe was spinning but more like about the time of impact. Lungs & clipped the liver on the exit. Arrow hit right where the white hair meets the side hair. On the ground u have one thing going for u. U don't shoot over or under a vital area as much as u hit both sides which helps greatly. Deer walk upright & don't tilt until they move quite a bit & @ that point u aren't hitting an exact spot. But judging the animals behavior & knowing that the deer in the area hadn't been hunted for a month let's u not 2nd guess your shot. The only other deer I ever shot on the ground were both during conditions that were too windy to stay up in the 🌳 so sound wasn't an issue. The phrase "I'd rather be lucky than good" describes the deer better than us hunters😅. Only thing I try to do is win an ambush & try to gain knowledge during late season to put myself there on the right day rather than a day or week late. Thanks again for all your hard work.
Joseph, that is great insight. Living in a fish house for six days in mid-December is pretty dang hard-core. Good for you and congrats on the great hunt. Best to you.
I agree. They don't seem to jump when they are walking. It is a shot that bowhunters need to practice before attempting in the field. Thanks for the comment.
yeah this is a really good topic to talk about. My experience is literally the same. The only difference is I feel a deer can hear that arrow coming, but regardless the result is the same. I just pray that the deer comes 25 yards and in, haha.
Agreed. 25 and in are good for me with Midwest deer. I think they hear the shot first though. Maybe some of the reaction is the sound of the arrow, but to get started dropping that soon, they have to reacting to the sound of the string bottoming. Have a great day.
Wish people would understand this applies to crossbows as well. Bolts do travel slightly faster but they lose speed quicker and are louder flying through the air than an arrow. Just have to shake my head when guys act like crossbows are 100 yard weapons even though the aim point on a crossbow at 100 yards is around 6 feet over the target and the bolt takes 1.5 seconds to reach target
I couldn't agree more. I remember when one crossbow company was advertising game killing accuracy at 100 yards. Yes, maybe on the range and yes, maybe if the deer doesn't move - but, unfortunately, they do do move. You are right, this exact same advice applies to crossbows - 40 yards is a long shot on any whitetail regardless if it is a vertical bow or a crossbow because the deer will move (drop) for both weapons. Very good input. Have a great day.
I lost a 150” deer on public land two years ago. First one I have ever lost and it was heart breaking. I looked for two days and payed for a blood dog. Now…I’m pretty confident after everything and many other competent hunters opinions…that this buck actually survived. But still……All that to say…he jumped the string on the quietist setup I’ve ever owned. I now aim low on anything over 15-20 or so yards…and I’m heart punching them much more frequently now.
That really sucks Mike. I have had some really good bucks jump the string on me too. You are making a good correction for that. Thanks for the comment.
I have been using this video for my son. He's using his compound this year and it helps alot. Great job explaining, my son, who is 10, understood what you were saying.
I stopped watching popular bowhunters because they shoot 70 and 80 yards at deer. Even if you can hit a quarter at that distance it is still unpredictable and unethical because of the unpredictable reaction. They are only promoting this unethical practice.Good hunters don't need to shoot that far. Getting close is supposed to be the challenge of bowhunting. Thank you Bill for being one of the dwindling ethical hunters !!
Thanks. I appreciate the comment. I have had enough bad encounters with string jumping deer even at 30 yards to know that shooting long distances is really sketchy. For those shooting crossbows, it is just as bad, if not worse. The crossbow is louder and deer definitely react to the sound of the shot, but the shooter feels comfortable at longer distances because of the inherent accuracy of the weapon. They have the same issue with string jumping as the compound shooter. As you mention, it doesn't matter how well you can shoot if the deer moves while the arrow or bolt is in the air. Good luck this season.
1:52 Just stuck my target deer in the shoulder blade and can't find him. I aimed low and he didn't seem alert but he ducked a ton. Hopefully he'll survive and return at some point. No blood or hair but I saw him carry the bolt. He was 29 yards so i put my 30 yard pin at the bottom of his chest. Using a crossbow that shoots 315FPS.
No bow can be so quiet it cannot be heard, but a quiet bow definitely helps. Some of my selfbows come close, but you can still hear the arrow in flight. If I sneak up behind you and snap my fingers, thats a different reactio. from sneaking up behind you and letting off a firecracker.
Agree. All are good points. I also think that windy days will help cover up the shot noise. I have had a few deer that offered me a second shot after missing the first and in those cases it was windy. One time it was a buck so focused on a doe that he didn't care.
I been hunting the same buck for 3 years straight and his name is : OVER & UNDER because for 2 years in a row I've shot over & under him ... first shot was 7 yards on the ground and i shot right over his back and the second shot was 25-30 yds on ground and i anticipated and shot for the drop and he didnt react and arrow grazed his brisket under & behind shoulder !
I feel your pain. I ended up killing the buck in the thumbnail photo on this video after he failed to drop at 30 yards. He was following a doe, I grunted, he looked at me, I aimed for his brisket line - sure he would drop. He didn't! The arrow grazed his brisket. He ran out of 40 yards and stopped to look back (the rut had him truly messed up). I aimed low again and this time he dropped into it! I don't know of any other strategy that I trust on 30 yard shots now other than aiming low. Even some bucks that don't show any alertness will drop. It is really hard to predict exactly what they will do so you almost have to assume they will drop. It is the toughest decision by far, when deciding where to aim at whitetails. Good luck.
My a-ha moment was recording (on VHS 😂) the old Saturday morning ESPN outdoor videos and using a dry erase marker (on my TV screen) and correlating the deer's position upon release and comparing it to the deers position at the moment of impact. I was amazed how the majority of deer dropped if there was any kind of distance involved. I was also puzzled about how little "TV" hunters of that era talked about deer "ducking the string".... anticipating it, and aiming lower in certain situations.
I didn't really start to understand it until I started filming and had the footage to go back through on the computer using the editing software. We would go frame by frame to see the position of the deer drop super fast in the last few frames. To the naked eye you can't even see it, most times. I think that is why people think they are shooting high, but in reality the deer dropped and came back up so fast that they didn't even see the movement.
If you use a heavier arrow, the bow will be substantially quieter...Nearly silent. However, you then have to deal with a lot of arrow drop. You would have to limit yourself to closer shots
I've just started sighting my bow in low and taking a lable maker and printing a tiny lable to stick on my riser at the same elevation of my sight saying AIM LOW !!. like I say ask your self how many deer have you ever shot low?
That is a really good practice Josh. I know a lot of people who do that, especially with the 30 yard pin. Thanks for the comment and good luck this fall.
It is so hard to know for sure what to do. Rarely do they not duck when they are alert (though sometimes they don't) and they do sometimes duck even when they are not alert. What to do? I think you have to aim low and take your lumps when they don't duck. Ideally, if they are close enough it doesn't matter. Inside 25 yards I never aim low no matter what. Good luck.
Bill, since moving to trad hunting (2002), I have seen that distance (closer for accuracy) and less noise and movement are important. Last season, another lesson learned was with self bows (even quieter) and on an alert doe, I need not aim at the brisket, but aim at the heart or just behind. I’ve had louder recurves cause string jump where aiming really low helps. Yep, she didn’t move!
Good insight. I shot a few deer with recurves back in the early 90s but they were so close that I didn't have to worry about them beating my arrow. I have had some really quiet compounds over the years and the deer even heard those. The only time I have not had deer hear the bow was when they were in the woods and the wind was blowing. Then I have not seen any reaction to the shot. One buck I shot at and missed and he never knew it. He just started walking again and actually came closer where I finally killed him! That was a windy day though.
This happened to me this last bow season, 35 yards broad side, un alerted I aimed low for him to duck my arrow and he didn’t duck. I hit him low in no man’s land and ended up finding him last week shed hunting. Definitely not the way I wanted to find him but glad I did find him.
I think the only other thing you could do in that situation is to aim off the deer (below the brisket line) and then if he doesn't duck you miss him clean. It is super hard to know exactly what any deer will do when they hear the shot and that same deer might react differently on different days. Who knows. Very inexact science. Just aim low enough that you miss if they don't drop, I guess. That is my strategy, for the most part. Good luck.
Happened to me two years ago at 40 yds. Still was able to double lung, but high shot and he turned. First time that I realized that after 36 years of hunting. Amazing to see.
I don't think there's a right and wrong on this one. I think it's a matter of preference, and an individual's situation. I've never made a bleat sound just so I can stop a deer's movement. I planned my shots ahead, as it gets within range. Sometimes, it can walk right past me and I'll just let it be. I don't own land, so I don't have the luxury of choosing which deer I want to take, and when. So I've always had to try my best not to spook it. I've missed plenty of time, when my arrow hit a twig or something other than the deer. For the most part, the deer would do a quick jump, look around.....then it either goes back to feeding, or walking cautiously away, but never really run. This is especially true, when it's windy, or when acorns are dropping. I even get second chances because the deer thought my missed shots were acorns dropping. It jumps, and goes right back to eating. That's when the second chance comes in. That's just my situation. I hunt the same spot most of the year, so I can't afford to spook them. I could be totally wrong on this.
I don't think you are wrong, it just comes down to where to aim once you decide to take the shot. If the shot is past 20 yards, there is some chance it will drop when it hears the bow fire even it appears completely relaxed. That is the hard part, knowing exactly where to aim. Good luck this fall.
I’ve always said good thing I’m not a target “3D shooter” because when I sight my bow in its at least 1 inches low at 20 at 30 I’m right at 2 inches low and I don’t worry to much about 40 anymore I more than likely will not draw back..
Fergie, that is a good way to do it. I know others that do that too. I think, from my experience, you need to be at least four inches low at 30. I think dead on at 20 and 40 is a crap shoot. I aim below the brisket on alert 40 yard shots. Probably at least six inches low. Good luck.
Great video and explained a lot of my 2nd guessing work. Southern deer are way more jumpy. Or maybe their reaction time is there because of the lack of massive fat bodied animals like the Midwest 😂
We love our fat bodied deer! A agree, they are much quicker in the south. I once took a 22 yard shot at a doe in Mississippi that was completely gone by the time the arrow got there and I was shooting about 290 fps at the time. I was shocked. I have seen anything like that here in Iowa. The quickest one I have seen was the one I shot on Nov. 22 here. She was under 20 yards and still dropped about two to three inches by the time the arrow got there.
Good information for young hunters. Also , need to emphasize the importance of patience, and self control. Need to ne happy with passing on a deer when situation isn’t good.
I agree. Your maximum range is not how far you can hit a four inch circle your backyard - that circle in your backyard isn't moving. Your maximum range is just as much (if not more) dictated by the deer's reaction to shot as it is your shooting ability. Good post.
Great info Bill, I've always been the type to Aim low because it seems the deer in the part of NC I live in are always on high alert. I've seen a couple instances where they didn't jump but I was still in the kill zone..
I have hunted deer in the south some, but in my experience they are definitely faster to drop than Midwest deer. Sounds like your strategy is working perfectly. Thanks for the input. Have a great day.
Great video Bill , I have had my share of ups and downs with this . Unfortunately Its been on some of my biggest that i have shot at . It’s definitely a tough moment in the whitetail woods in the rut being that sometime you have only a few seconds to get a shot or make a decision. Look forward to another video . Thanks Bill
Thanks Alvin. Yes, in the calm of your living room this all seems a lot easier than it does in the deer woods. Plus, I am not necessarily one of those "ice water in his veins" kind of guys anyway. So, I have to remove as many decisions from the moment of truth as I can by making those decisions and rehearsing in advance. Good luck.
Ive read many of your articles on this and I think you have it about as good as possible. You have to play the odds and you cant shoot fast enough to beat the drop.
That's what I have learned. I think we aim dead on out to 20-25 yards and then we have to aim increasingly low. 40 yards is a really long shot at a whitetail for this reason. Good luck.
I know it’s hard to believe but I’m a veteran bow hunter and have shot my fair share of deer over the years but I once had a shot on a doe at under 20 yards she came in and gave me a broadside side on her right side on the shot she wheeled around and done a 180 and I hit her on her left side unbelievable I couldn’t believe my eyes and still recovered the deer
That is amazing. I had a similar experience: a doe in Mississippi once that was 22 yards away. I thought nothing of it, aimed for the vitals and triggered the shot. She was completely gone from sight picture by the time arrow got there. She was so quick that she was completely gone. That sure doesn't happen with the big, comparatively slow Midwest deer I am used to hunting! Thanks for the comment.
I use a single movable pin. Ive gotten lucky on a few occasions on my better bucks shooting 35 yards with my 20 yard pin in the heat of the moment aiming for the lungs. In all cases I heart shot them. I did the same thing out in Kansas on a giant. He never dropped because even on public land I found the deer not to be anywhere as alert as a deer from PA.
Ken, that is a very good lesson. Reading body language during the moment of truth is tough. There is a lot going on, but aiming low usually works. I would have done the same thing on the KS buck I am guessing. We get them dropping here in Iowa a lot and the pressure is not higher here than KS. I think that buck in KS was just lucky. It was not his day to die, unfortunately for you.
🎯 sir, sometimes like you said I believe they react to sound, when I've very lightly scraped bark they can bug out, the visual cue is also very likely an eyeball on something just not right that moves, I hate having to aim where I do not want to hit, crossbows are now legal here with the 400 fps ish crossbows at reasonable ranges I've been able to aim where I want to hit, Growing Deer TV has an excellent video of this with a sound engineer, arrow speed vs. deer reaction time, it matters. -W. Liggett
I have seen that video that Grant did. I have seen deer react from every possible angle. I used to shoot a ton of does every year and they are worse at jumping the string than bucks. I have seen lots of them with the heads up that dropped. Maybe they don't drop as fast as those with their heads down, but they definitely react too. It almost seems at times that you are better off putting them on alert so you at least know what they are going to do. Some of the seemingly relaxed bucks and does dropped at the sound just as much as the ones on alert. It is hard to guess what they are going to do. Anyway, that is why I started aiming a little low on all my shots, even the ones that don't seem alert. Good luck this fall.
🎯 sir, same for me with slower bows & heavier arrow setups, since going to my KI Ripper 425 xbow with a 390 gr. tw Carbon Express Maxima dual spine bolt tipped with a Swhacker #207 2" cut 100 gr broadhead they fly same as my field points for me, fast, flat shooting and accurate, at reasonable ranges I no longer have to hold at the lower smaller target area anticipating drop, I've been able to aim where I want to hit now and always get an exit thus far, many deer down and quick, we love your channel, great videos. -W. Liggett
One thing I've noticed is with high poundage bows is the release is making noise when fired , seen videos and heard it at same time deer start dropping before the arrow leaves the bow, just a thought you would like to hear. Good luck to all bow hunters as i get older i know my days are numbered.
i had a buck roll backwards and drop to the floor on my fifteen yd shot from behind a tree. I initially thought I dropped him on the spot. not that time
Wow, I had a doe in Mississippi once completely vacate the sight picture at 25 yards. She was completely gone by the time the arrow got there. I had never (and have never) seen anything like that in the Midwest. Crazy quick.
Ive always aimed where the white of the belly meets the brown, right on the line behind the front leg and its been 98% success rate. I dont want to talk about that 2% 😂😂
If you are referring to the thumbnail for the video, I actually aimed low on that deer. I ended up getting him. We just showed this image for reference to show what happens if you aim at the normal spot and they react to the sound of the shot. Thanks for the comment and have a great day.
Great vidoe Bill. I 100% agree with you. I grew up with a weekend warrior gun hunting family. I started bow hunting and had to learn everything on my own. I struggled with high hits and continued for about 10 years or so and also losing a few deer. Now days I aim low heart in the armpit area. If they don't drop at all its smoke city. Even it they do I tend to hit them perfectly dead center lung. I just couldn't get myself to aim under the brisket like you do but to each their own. I also noted there are a lot of broadheads, even vanes that whistle. Have a friend stand down range in a safe place (behind shed or something) and take a few shots. You'll be amazed how some sound like Netflix footballs going towards the target. Best bowhunting advice you can give is to ALWAYS AIM LOW!! Love the vidoes PS my less experienced brother won't listen to me when I tell him this 😅. He'll learn the hard way 😢.
Michigan Man, thanks and your brother will definitely learn the hard way. We all do, it seems! You are probably low enough with a heart aimpoint on most deer, but I have seen a few at 30 yards that dropped 10 inches, though I don't think I have seen one on video drop more than that. Maybe I need to raise my aimpoint slightly. Good input. Have a great day.
I've only been bowhunting seriously for about 5 years now and I've had 2 deer completely duck an arrow. One was a 135" buck at 40 yards (my only 40 yard shot ever) and another a doe at 23 yards roughly. Im not sure if I'm right or not but I've tryed to aim for just the heart or low enough to hit the heart on quartering away shots this past year. I don't ever normally shoot over 30 yards but I don't have near the experience of alot of really good hunters. It seems that just as you're saying Bill that it can be very situational.
It is situational but the rules aren't clear. One time the deer reacts a certain way in that situation and the next time it reacts a different way. Also, not all deer have the same sensitivity to the sound of the bow. So, after all these years, I am just mostly aiming low on everything and living with the miss if the deer doesn't drop. I wish it was more predictable, but it just isn't, unfortunately. Good luck.
You're flat out wrong bill... all my shots are on the dot on most deer... as I said on all past stuff like this. By the time the tip of the broadhead pokes the deer. They start crouching... 1 it's that way your bows set up. 2 it's all about how calm the wind is. Windy conditions can cause you arrow to group off.
I have 2 examples from personal experiences . First happened several years ago . Nice p&y 9pt. He and his small 8pt buddy had been playing around while coming in. Finally, the big buck gave me a shot at 37 yards. At the release, the buck spun to face the smaller buck . At the release, I was aiming behind the right shoulder. I hit him squarely in the LEFT EYE ! He bolted w the arrow hanging out of the eye socket. A quick decent and pursuit ended with a killing shot while He was hung up in some vines. Next was several years later on a super nice 150+ 8pt. He was following a doe and stopped at 27 yards . The pin was set for 18yrds to hit on point at 30ft for straight down shots from my normal 30ft stand height. I aimed bottom heart expecting 3-5 inches of reaction to the shot. He didn't move at all til the arrow smacked a tree trunk on the other side of him . I cut 2 hairs on the leg /chest angle .clean miss. That setup was shooting 326fps and it shot 2.5 " low at 27 yards. I missed right where the arrow was suppose to hit at 27yds. All we can do is roll the dice based on the situation . It took 5 years to get over that last one, lol.
Good Topic. I say shoot a quieter bow with heavy arrows and now mechanicals. if you miss you miss and if you hit, you get penetration. Even if you hit high and get a pass through, that deer will survive if its a muscle hit. if you're hunting quick deer, shoot them closer.
They do still hear it but they don't seem as sensitive to the sound. For example, if you were walking across your lawn at night and something makes a sound in a bush only a few feet away, you would react differently than if the same sound came from a bush 40 yards away. That is part of it. I still aim low at 40 yards. It is kind of a crap shoot past that distance - part of the reason I don't like shots past 40 yard no matter how good you are with a bow - where do you aim? That is the tough question. Thanks for the comment. Have a great day.
deer drop quicker with their head down "feeding". i try not to stop a deer . never not hold on hair. and your bow should go off with a dull thud rather than a sharp twak.
I think of it does. Crossbows tend to be a bit faster so the amount the deer drops may be slightly less, but it definitely still applies. Anything past 30 yards I suspect you will still need to aim a bit low (maybe heart area). Good luck.
@@bill-winke thanks! I need all the help I can get as I’m just trying to get the dang thing sighted in. It would be nice to have it ready for November. Already taken it in for a professional once over twice and they said nothing is wrong with the scope (all they did was tighten some bolts) If this little archery place had a shooting range, she absolutely would’ve helped me, but she can’t. Gotta do this on my own. 😔
Always great to get insight from people like you that have taken so many deer and seen so much variation. I can't say I've had a 'gimmee' shot in my short career yet!
I have had a few slam dunks in my life, but anything past 25 yards always has some element of uncertainty in it. That is why I have finally just decided that aiming low is the key on almost all the shots I will take past that distance.
Don't alert deer if you don't have to. I see a lot of videos where people alert deer that didn't have to. keep those shots low on the kill zone and good luck.
BirdDog, I agree, but I have sure seen them drop both ways. Rarely do they drop when they are walking, but I have seen many perfectly relaxed deer (bucks and does) drop at the sound of the shot.
Mark, that probably makes sense for the 30 and 40 yard pins when whitetail hunting, but not the 20 yard pin. I need to think about it some more to try to decide if there is a downside to this approach. Thanks for the input. Have a great day.
Holy crap Bill replying to me 🤯!! Iv been doing it last few years I just adjusted my pins and left my 20 yard alone. I aim center mass every shot it’s just natural like target practice to me at this point I have my 30 and 40 drop about 6” short of where I’m aiming and it ether heart shot them or if they duck double lung same thing as aiming low, just in the heat of the moment I don’t have to think about it my bow is already calibrated for it just put the pin center of the shoulder and watch the magic happen gotta trust in the process it works
I think this discussion is more solid evidence why bow hunters should strive to get as close as possible for their shots on live animals. Some influencers want to take 90 yard shots on live animals and not show the follow up shot taken with a rifle, but there is a lot that can happen during the flight of an arrow. I’ve been fortunate that I’ve never had a deer jump the string on me. I shot a 10 point that was walking steadily. I picked a spot in his path to draw and then shot. I let him walk into the arrow. The deer never reacted until my arrow was through him. I found him within 30 yards of the shot. I was also taught to shoot at the bottom of the vitals, and always tend to hold low, think low 12 on a ASA target. As far as the sound goes, I believe the arrow is the detriment to arrow impacting the target animal. The sound is very comparable to baseball heading towards a batter. I also made a video from the targets POV and it is very surprising how easy it is to pick up the arrow sound vs. bow with the camera microphone. I think most misinterpret what the see in a video. We see the shot, and then see a deer drop and automatically assume it’s the bow. But in that half a second, there is a arrow hissing towards the animal. There is no cure (yet) to over come the arrows noise as it passes through air towards the target. The heavy arrow crowd may have an additional point in their argument, as you slow down an arrow wind sheer over the broad head and vanes will be reduced, and possibly not alert the animal as much.
Try southern deer... My son had this happen TWICE yesterday with me in the tree next to him yesterday. Had one deer at 12. yards drop completely to the ground where her chest touched!! He aimed one inch BELOW the chest and still skipped off her back. It was nuts. Slower bow cause 13 years old but still.. 40# diamond infinite edge pro 26" draw. Again. 10 yards. Feeding on acorns at 12 yards. Another at 15 he shot for heart and it wasn't close . Missed 4 inches high. HA. Thanks for mentioning it right after I posted 😊. They are wild
I hunted Mississippi a few times. Had a doe at 22 yards one time. Shooting probably around 290 fps. She was completely gone by the time the arrow got there. I was shocked that any living thing could react that fast.
They will drop 6-10 inches, aim accordingly based on the distance. I made a 55 yard shot on a 200 pound buck with my crossbow that shots 340 feet per second. The shot was made from a box stand 13 foot off the ground, near the end of shoot light. The deer walked in to 25 yards straight at me turn turned abruptly and started walking away. I tensed, thinking my opportunity was decreasing with every step he took. I bleated a call at 35 years and he just kept walking at 50 yards I did the same thing but much louder. He turned right and gave me a perfect 1/4 away shot. I aimed 6 inches over his back for the distance and made a perfect heart shot. In the low lighten conditions I thought I actually missed the deer. I believe the shot was very lucky and blessed but I hope I never do it again. I now have a crossbow that shoots 385 feet per second and shoots 2 inch shot groups at 50 yards but I plan all my shots from 15-35 yards.
Speed definitely helps, I have seen that with compound bows. I wish they all did the same thing, but they don't. I have seen some drop that seemed completely relaxed and some not drop that were alert. To play it safe, you have to aim low on all of the shots. Have a great day.
Exactly how my story played out this year. Had a nice 8pt on October 28th at 22 yards, and sailed one just over his back. Shooting an old Oneida; a dinosaur by today's FPS standards. I was aiming for vitals while I should have been at the brisket. Tough way to learn, but I'm thankful for a clean miss instead of wounding the deer.
It is a really hard lesson. I have learned it many times under a wide range of conditions. I have learned that it is almost impossible to judge 100% how any deer will react to the sound of the shot. All you can do is aim low on your longer shots. Good luck and thanks for the comment.
Exactly. I did a long mathematical study on this one time and came the same exact results that we have seen on video - you have to aim at least 6 inches low on 30 yard shots if it looks like the deer is likely to drop. Have a great day.
My solution with my setup (300fps) where i hunt is i shoot a single pin slider set to 24 yds and i aim exactly the same spot from 5yds-40yds without ever moving my pin. It auto compensates for deer dropping.
I have heard of guys doing that. I would be tempted then to grunt at every deer I shoot at to be sure they are all alert and likely to drop rather than not being sure.
Hunted MS my whole life. I’ve had 2 does, one at 25 yards, broadside completely push and spin away from the arrow. Watched the arrow sail right where I was aiming and the deer get outta there. It’s truly incredible.
Yes, the fastest deer I have ever seen was in MS. It was a doe too. She was at 22 yards and was completely gone when the arrow got there. She was alert, but still, I didn't expect her to move that fast. I was shocked.
Just the string silencers that come with the Hoyt bows. I have very rarely shot at a deer where they didn't hear it, maybe a couple of times, always when the wind was blowing pretty hard. Even recurve shooters have the same problem in still days.
WOW this very thoughtful video. I have always had this problem. It has caused me to stop bow hunting at times for a couple of years. Um trying to figure this out and debating what bow I should use this year
Tim, I appreciate it. My personal conclusion is that a faster bow will reduce how far a deer can drop after hearing the sound. Some think that a quieter bow will be quiet enough that the deer don't hear it, but it has been experience that this is only true on windy days. Otherwise, it is tough to get a bow quiet enough especially if the deer is already alert. Good luck.
And well we should all be. I think if you are good on the range to 40 then a 40 yard shot is reasonable when hunting, but again, only if you aim low. Good input. Thanks for the support.
Hey Bill, I have noticed when their head is down, they have a more drastic drop. Somthing to keep in mind with relaxed deer. I would value a alert deer's consistency over a relaxed deer's unknown characteristic.
I have heard that too, but I have also seen many of them drop really fast with their heads up. When you stop a walking buck for the shot, his head is up and I have seen several of them drop right off the map when the bow fired. I am not willing to adjust my aim point depending on the head position alone. I have seen too many deer drop a lot with their heads up.
Good topic, Mr. Winke. I appreciate that you addressed stopping deer. I’ve been preaching for years that when you stop a deer, it’s being alerted and the likelihood of it ducking the arrow increases exponentially. People want to argue with me because I’m not an expert…even though I’ve been bowhunting since the ‘70s. Coming from you, maybe people will be more willing to accept it as the truth. Also, this new belief that the deer is alerted by the sound of the arrow rather than the “pop” of the bow going off is nonsense. The sound of the bow gets to the deer probably before the arrow is even a few inches off the string.
Russell, thanks for the comment. I used to shoot all my deer 25 yards and in walking. If they were farther, I stopped them and if they were moving faster than a walk I stopped them. But once we started doing video I decided I had better not do that anymore because I was probably sending the wrong message. I practiced those moving shots and had a pretty good system for executing them, but I didn't want people to start shooting at moving deer without that background. Like you, I think they react to the first thing they hear, whether that is the bow or the arrow - or both. Good input. Have a great day.
I never try to stop a buck with a grunt right before shooting. I know i dont film my hunts and thats why I think lots of guys do it, for the footage but i wont do that. why put a buck on high alert?
Mike, it is not for the footage that we stop them, it is because if we shoot them walking we will get widely criticized for being unethical because we are setting a bad example. Not everyone has practiced the skills to make those walking shots and we would seem to be encouraging something (the walking shot) that would result in bad hits for many people watching the videos. But as we have noticed, stopping them can also result in bad hits.
@@bill-winke I believe that for sure. people who film hunts for the public to see have to be really careful on what shots you show in videos. I learned a long time ago not to take walking shots. as a young hunter i shot very far back on a buck that was walking slow but was 30 yards away. i killed him but it wasnt a hunt for TV. I now try to let them stop naturally. i've had to watch really nice bucks walk out of range because they never stopped but thats just the way those hunts went. Now if i needed content to make money, who knows what i'd be doing
Does drop significantly more. I aimed low into the heart lung area broadside from a ladder stand 17 feet up and 20 yards. The doe dropped and the bolt hit just below the spine and fortunately severed the main artery.
I have sure seen my share of bucks drop too, unfortunately. I do think does are more likely to drop when they aren't alert than bucks, but both drop a lot when they hear the shot.
Old school bowhunter here no trigger release no peep sight never stopped a deer on purpose in 40 years take walking shots all the time don't take shots over 32 yards in my opinion peep interferes with field of vision fingers are a more fluid release on moving deer stopping deer just puts them on high alert shoot same bow I bought when I was 14 unfortunately most new bows are built for a release unless traditional
David, it is a good system - it it's not broke, don't fix it. The bow I bought when I was 14 was a Bear Whitetail Hunter and I definitely would not want to be shooting that anymore! Most bows in the past 15 years are really good, but there were definitely some duds produced in the 80s, 90s, and early 2000s. I owned a few of them. Have a great day.
This is a big reason that I shoot a crossbow. People talk about it not being as sportsmanlike, and to an extent, I get it. Shooting a crossbow is far less challenging. But from an ethical standpoint, when you're shooting a bolt at 400+FPS, SO MUCH of the guesswork is eliminated. And to me, minimizing the risk of injuring a deer with a non-lethal shot makes it worth it.
I never thought about it that way, Isaac. I don't have an agenda against crossbows, but I will say they are not the same as shooting a vertical bow - but that is what you are saying too. I never thought of them as being more ethical. I suppose any weapon can be ethical or not ethical depending on how it used, be it vertical bow or crossbow. Thanks for the input.
@@bill-winke Absolutely! A crossbow shot at 80 yards is a lot less ethical than a vertical bow shot at 20 yards. For me, I have young kids and only get to hunt around 10 times a year. So I want to maximize my effectiveness on converting encounters to kills. I feel comfortable with my crossbow out to 40. With a compound bow, it'd be less. And that has more to due with the velocity difference than my own personal profficiencey.
This is one of the best videos on this topic anywhere. Several times you mentioned making another video about this. Please do so soon if you can. Thank you for all the great content you and Jordan share on this channel and good luck this season!
Thanks Adam. We should have some downtime now as we are done with the farm projects and haven't started hunting yet. We will take another crack at this topic. Have a great day.
That’s actually not true deer are more likely to duck more when they are walking because they can duck and run faster than if they’re standing up, fully and looking at you
It's possible, but the biggest problem with jumping comes at 30 yards and farther and I never have taken a walking shot at those distances so I am not sure how the deer react to the shot when walking at those distances. Thanks for the comment.
I made a tight aim on a buck in the triangle behind the shoulder only to hit the center of the shoulder blade when he heard the pop from my crossbow at 30 yards. I found the skeletal remains 2 years later.
So I did a video on arrow noise. “Arrow Noise, Why deer duck the string”. You can watch it or not that’s not the point but vanes and arrow weight do make a difference as well as bow noise. I started to put GoPros in the field and captured the arrows buzzing, one arrow SPINED a deer because of it. Awesome video.
I still think they react to the first thing they hear whether it is the sound of the shot or the sound of the arrows. I know the arrows make noise as they fly, but that noise will get to the deer after the sound of the release. Maybe they react to both, as they blur together. The entire phenomena is more or less a mystery still. All we know for sure is that they do react and that if you don't anticipate it, you will hit high. Thanks for the input.
@@bill-winke oh no doubt. I love videos like this. I’m a geek when it comes to hunting and having a more ethical hunting setup. I like the idea of a faster setup but a heavier setup is quieter. I love it. Again thanks for the video
I think you’ve hit on this before but don’t you think you can take a shot where you’re so far away that the deer doesn’t even hear the bow go off? I shot a mule deer at 92 yards in utah last year and the deer didn’t move at all and I pinwheeled him. My only guess was that he didn’t hear the bow or arrow coming and that’s why he didn’t react at all
That would be my guess too, regarding the mule deer. My experience with mule deer is that they are even more likely to drop since the way they run (bounce) requires them to drop dramatically just to get going. I have shot a couple of mule deer that really dropped. In my limited experience with whitetails at longer ranges, this is not the case. I shot a doe one time at 60 yards (a very long shot for a whitetail). She was facing to the right and when the arrow got there she was in the exact same spot but facing to the left! I was lucky to get both lungs on that one, but it showed me that they can (and do) still react to the bow at longer ranges. Maybe the number of jumpers at 60 yards is less as a percentage of the herd than the number at 30 yards, but they can still do it - so the question of where to aim still remains. Good input.
I love this topic and I will continue splitting hears on this just for the sake of conversation and debate. Let’s use numbers and science, and a 40 yard shot illustration. Sound travels at 375 yards per sec, this means it would take 0.106 seconds for the sound of the bow to get to the deer at 40 yards, with a 300fps arrow, this gets your arrow to 10.6 yards out of the bow before the deer hears the bow. This leaves 30 yards of “flight” time for the deer to react, if we can get 250 fps for those 30 yards, that gives the deer 0.36 sec to react. That seams like a lot of reaction time in my mind. (We could figure out how fast they can drop from start to arrow impact in Premier Pro timeline). In all the shot illustrations on the video, the deer seam to start dropping when the arrow is 10 +/- yards from the deer. At the 5:30 mark on the 40 yard shot with several other deer feeding around, the only deer that drops before the arrow gets there is the target deer, the rest all react after the arrow hits. It would make sense to me that the deer that react from just the shot are the deer that get completely out of the sight picture. If you “stop” a deer, this is more likely to happen. Again at the 5:30 in the video, at 40 yards and I’m assuming out of a redneck, it would seam they didn’t even hear the shot, and he still got just a few inches of drop before the arrow hits and the other deer react to his reaction, except maybe the 1.5 on the left edge of the frame.
This still leaves us with a combination somewhere between reacting to just the bow going off (super jumpers), to hearing the bow then the arrow, to long distance shots and quite arrows where they hear nothing. 😅
I once ran all the numbers on this and decided to give the deer .1 seconds of reaction time. I think that is probably too slow but it is an easy number to work with. I ran the study with a 260 fps bow and a 300 fps bow. The difference in how far the deer dropped at 30 yards was about three inches. So, increasing your arrow speed (one way or another) from 260 fps to 300 fps bought you about three inches at 30 yards. In my video study, (using the audio profile on the timeline to signify when the bow went off and then counting frames - each one is 1/30 of a second) I see most deer in my area start to drop when the arrow is about 20 yards from the bow. That is why I say that shots of 20 and in, no need to aim low. In the south that is different - they react faster. Good insight. Have a great day.
I have considered this but I haven't done it yet. Maybe you are right, maybe that is the best strategy. I need to think about the tradeoffs some more. Good input. Have a great day.
Not necessarily forward. In my experience they drop and wheel away and that actually means the aimpoint would have to down and BACK. For now, just stick with low. I will study some more video and come up with whether or not it makes sense to aim back on every shot. But I don't think forward is a good idea - not from what I have seen. Good input. Thanks.
I do Art. I think in some areas they are wired tighter too. Whether that is hunting pressure or predation or something else. Some deer are just jumpier than others, even in the same range. Also, if a buck has a doe on his mind, he is less likely to drop down to run than if he is just out feeding - in my experience. I wish this was easier to predict. Good luck.
Thanks for not trying to sell me seeds every 5 seconds, saying you thought of it first and instead just being a real and honest hunting buddy in your videos.
That is for sure Kirk. As much as we want to find specifics that we can hang our hats on as gospel, there are very few things that deer always do or never do. I wish they reacted to the shot more consistently though. I once thought I would just making a sound to alert them all before taking the shot so the likelihood of them jumping was higher (almost certain) across the boards. At least I would know what to expect. That might be where I end up one day. Good luck.
It does make sense that they can duck farther (or quicker) when they can use their head-raise movement for leverage to lower their body, but I don't think they duck more often when they have their head down. Maybe we are both saying the same thing. Good input. Thanks for the comment.
I find it interesting that at the 6:16 mark those two does are inline with each other but the doe closest to you reacts first and then a split second later the second doe starts to load it’s legs. So the question maybe still remains, are they reacting to the sound of the arrow? Bow or was the second doe reacting to the first doe dropping?
I will probably die with the belief that they are reacting to the first sound they hear, which in most cases, is the bow. Good point though. I never noticed that the two does reacted at different times. It just shows how truly unpredictable this is and why you always have to assume they will drop even if they don't. Some don't, for whatever reason. Some drop faster than others, etc. This is a very inexact science.
Thanks for this advice, I had a few high and back hits this last season, that I could not recover. I plan on aiming for the low heart this coming season.
I've never had a mature buck jump the string despite one of them being shot at just over 50 yards and one just under 50 yards. I've had several smaller more nimble does and fawn do it. The difference might be the bucks we're in cover and in rut mode vs the slickheads being out of the rut and more in feeding mode as well as out on a fooplot in a more exposed higher stress environment where they we on edge. I've had deer not only duck the string but flat out gone before the arrow got there. It is mind blowing.
It is amazing how quick they are. I think you are on to something there. I do think they are more likely to jump the string in open settings. Also, I think the sound of the bow carries better in those settings too. Good input.
@@bill-winke That's another reason that I shoot about a 400 grain arrow and don't buy into the heavy arrow thing. Just like coyote hunting with a fast flat bullet the fastest flattest projectile takes as much guess work out as possible and gets there as fast as possible. It seems so many people build their setups around bad shots. If you put it in the boiler room nothing else really matters imo.
@@natemihlbachler3511 Agreed. I hate to come out with any conclusive thoughts, but my own experience suggests that speed is more important than people think on beating string jumpers. If we could consistently get our bows quiet enough that the deer don't hear them, then I would change my mind. If they are going to hear it anyway, then getting the arrow there sooner is a big advantage.
My bet is that for any bow hunter that's honest with themselves, that this has happened at least once. You're right, once you alert the deer, either by scent, sight or sound as in stopping them from walking to get a shot, that deer is primed to react at the slightest movement or sound. I've learned to really avoid any shots past 25 yards if I sense any kind of alertness from the deer. I also tend to aim low just from experiences I've had with deer dropping. Great video with examples.
I agree, but I think, based on my experience, that they drop at least a bit on almost every shot. As you note, the ones past 25 yards show the greatest result because the deer has time to drop farther.
@@bill-winke Anther thing to look out for is that a deer can drop faster than normal if their head is low. They can swing their head up to get more force down on their back, so i'd almost prefer shooting an alert deer with his head up before I shoot a deer walking with it's head down.
It just happened tonight and it’s the worst feeling
Actually studies have shown a deer with its head down can and will drop faster that a deer with its head up.
The deer throwing its head up helps its body drop faster and further.
This has been proven throu slow motion video !
Great information Bill. The main take away for new bow hunters is, deer move, and targets don’t.
Eric, exactly. They aren't the same so don't assume your max range in the backyard is a realistic max when hunting.
Thanks for the input.
Thank you for being completely transparent while giving advice. I've really enjoyed your videos and podcasts that you've been on.
Thanks Derek. I appreciate the support and the comment. Have a great day.
As someone who shoots trad bows and compounds there is a night and day difference in how a deer reacts with a longbow vs compound. So I do think a bow could be quiet enough to not trigger a reaction. I’ve got multiple shots at deer with trad bows. That hasn’t ever happened with a compound. Just something to think about.
I can't agree more !!!
The head was down on a lot of shots in this video. Wait for the head to be up for the shot. Head up limits the deers ability to move the kill zone. They can only drop at the speed of gravity. With the head down, they can fling their head up while dropping their front legs. They can significantly change the kill zone in a head down orientation. I also try to wait for the close front leg to be forward to open up the kill zone, so I can aim more forward away from the liver. Happy hunting!
Happened to me with the deer of my life so far last year. All odds were against me other than the fact he was there. 30 yards on a dead silent night semi alert with his head down, I put it right behind his leg on the belly line and he hit the ground like a sack of potatoes. Must've clipped his back straps as we trailed hi for 200 yards on decent blood the it totally stopped. Had hair fat and solid meat on the arrow, little to no blood. 2 weeks later he was shot again by a neighbor with a crossbow back in the guts and he was never found. That next spring we mowed the food plot and hit a body with the tractor, looked around and found his shed to perfectly match the hole on his head. Was a tough winter but it's crazy to think he lived possibly another 2½ months after his last injury in a pretty brutal winter in mimnesota. Good news is I have one picture of an almost exactly identical deer on camera in August, hes got some offspring around my area I can only hope I get a second chance at one in his bloodline. Was an estimated 145 in 8 point, perfectly symmetrical. Hoping his son surpasses him
Great tips Bill, I have never attempted to stop a moving animal, I try to anticipate where it will be at the time I release, works for me.
Yes, that works well if you have the experience. It just doesn't work for everyone as the skill is not universal - not everyone can do it. So for us to shoot at walking deer on the videos is going to encourage the wrong behavior. If you have the practiced skill and timing to hit lungs on a walking deer, that is better than stopping them. Good input.
Bill, thank u cuz I know the amount of editing that film was. I was once in a wooded area in mid-December living in a fish house with only propane for power. I was dropped off on a logging road & I told my uncle who was going ice fishing not to come back for 6 days. With these conditions I would be on stand 1 hour after sun up. On the 5th morning a good track by the spot I was hunting that morning was fresh just b4 I arrived. Midday I figured that I needed to get down & try to cut off that deer returning from eating in a nice cedar swamp. It did & I was on the ground. When u r level on the ground with the deer it complicates things. So I aimed low @ 20 yards & waited until it was 17 & shot low. Only movement on the doe was spinning but more like about the time of impact. Lungs & clipped the liver on the exit. Arrow hit right where the white hair meets the side hair. On the ground u have one thing going for u. U don't shoot over or under a vital area as much as u hit both sides which helps greatly. Deer walk upright & don't tilt until they move quite a bit & @ that point u aren't hitting an exact spot. But judging the animals behavior & knowing that the deer in the area hadn't been hunted for a month let's u not 2nd guess your shot. The only other deer I ever shot on the ground were both during conditions that were too windy to stay up in the 🌳 so sound wasn't an issue. The phrase "I'd rather be lucky than good" describes the deer better than us hunters😅. Only thing I try to do is win an ambush & try to gain knowledge during late season to put myself there on the right day rather than a day or week late. Thanks again for all your hard work.
Joseph, that is great insight. Living in a fish house for six days in mid-December is pretty dang hard-core. Good for you and congrats on the great hunt. Best to you.
thank you for the info- good stuff- thank you the candid honesty. If it wasn't so hard it would not be as much fun :)
Thanks Ralph for the comment and the support. Have a great day.
Getting closer and shooting while they're walking is my preference. I haven't had any jump string while walking.
I agree. They don't seem to jump when they are walking. It is a shot that bowhunters need to practice before attempting in the field. Thanks for the comment.
yeah this is a really good topic to talk about. My experience is literally the same. The only difference is I feel a deer can hear that arrow coming, but regardless the result is the same. I just pray that the deer comes 25 yards and in, haha.
Agreed. 25 and in are good for me with Midwest deer. I think they hear the shot first though. Maybe some of the reaction is the sound of the arrow, but to get started dropping that soon, they have to reacting to the sound of the string bottoming. Have a great day.
Wish people would understand this applies to crossbows as well. Bolts do travel slightly faster but they lose speed quicker and are louder flying through the air than an arrow. Just have to shake my head when guys act like crossbows are 100 yard weapons even though the aim point on a crossbow at 100 yards is around 6 feet over the target and the bolt takes 1.5 seconds to reach target
I couldn't agree more. I remember when one crossbow company was advertising game killing accuracy at 100 yards. Yes, maybe on the range and yes, maybe if the deer doesn't move - but, unfortunately, they do do move. You are right, this exact same advice applies to crossbows - 40 yards is a long shot on any whitetail regardless if it is a vertical bow or a crossbow because the deer will move (drop) for both weapons. Very good input. Have a great day.
I lost a 150” deer on public land two years ago. First one I have ever lost and it was heart breaking. I looked for two days and payed for a blood dog. Now…I’m pretty confident after everything and many other competent hunters opinions…that this buck actually survived. But still……All that to say…he jumped the string on the quietist setup I’ve ever owned. I now aim low on anything over 15-20 or so yards…and I’m heart punching them much more frequently now.
That really sucks Mike. I have had some really good bucks jump the string on me too. You are making a good correction for that. Thanks for the comment.
I have been using this video for my son. He's using his compound this year and it helps alot. Great job explaining, my son, who is 10, understood what you were saying.
Perfect. Thanks for the comment and the support, Brandon. Good luck.
I stopped watching popular bowhunters because they shoot 70 and 80 yards at deer. Even if you can hit a quarter at that distance it is still unpredictable and unethical because of the unpredictable reaction. They are only promoting this unethical practice.Good hunters don't need to shoot that far. Getting close is supposed to be the challenge of bowhunting. Thank you Bill for being one of the dwindling ethical hunters !!
Thanks. I appreciate the comment. I have had enough bad encounters with string jumping deer even at 30 yards to know that shooting long distances is really sketchy. For those shooting crossbows, it is just as bad, if not worse. The crossbow is louder and deer definitely react to the sound of the shot, but the shooter feels comfortable at longer distances because of the inherent accuracy of the weapon. They have the same issue with string jumping as the compound shooter. As you mention, it doesn't matter how well you can shoot if the deer moves while the arrow or bolt is in the air. Good luck this season.
1:52 Just stuck my target deer in the shoulder blade and can't find him. I aimed low and he didn't seem alert but he ducked a ton. Hopefully he'll survive and return at some point. No blood or hair but I saw him carry the bolt. He was 29 yards so i put my 30 yard pin at the bottom of his chest. Using a crossbow that shoots 315FPS.
Dang it. I am sick for you. It is amazing how fast they can react. Hopefully he shows back up no worse for wear. Good luck.
No bow can be so quiet it cannot be heard, but a quiet bow definitely helps. Some of my selfbows come close, but you can still hear the arrow in flight.
If I sneak up behind you and snap my fingers, thats a different reactio. from sneaking up behind you and letting off a firecracker.
Agree. All are good points. I also think that windy days will help cover up the shot noise. I have had a few deer that offered me a second shot after missing the first and in those cases it was windy. One time it was a buck so focused on a doe that he didn't care.
I been hunting the same buck for 3 years straight and his name is :
OVER & UNDER because for 2 years in a row I've shot over & under him ... first shot was 7 yards on the ground and i shot right over his back and the second shot was 25-30 yds on ground and i anticipated and shot for the drop and he didnt react and arrow grazed his brisket under & behind shoulder !
I feel your pain. I ended up killing the buck in the thumbnail photo on this video after he failed to drop at 30 yards. He was following a doe, I grunted, he looked at me, I aimed for his brisket line - sure he would drop. He didn't! The arrow grazed his brisket. He ran out of 40 yards and stopped to look back (the rut had him truly messed up). I aimed low again and this time he dropped into it! I don't know of any other strategy that I trust on 30 yard shots now other than aiming low. Even some bucks that don't show any alertness will drop. It is really hard to predict exactly what they will do so you almost have to assume they will drop. It is the toughest decision by far, when deciding where to aim at whitetails. Good luck.
Shoot right above the leg or forward of that. Shoot a 500gr+ arrow and fixed blade. Farther forward is more lethal. DO NOT SHOOT BEHIND THE CREASE!!!!
This episode is about string jumping, not where to aim on standing deer. The trick is to figure out where they will be after they move.
My a-ha moment was recording (on VHS 😂) the old Saturday morning ESPN outdoor videos and using a dry erase marker (on my TV screen) and correlating the deer's position upon release and comparing it to the deers position at the moment of impact. I was amazed how the majority of deer dropped if there was any kind of distance involved. I was also puzzled about how little "TV" hunters of that era talked about deer "ducking the string".... anticipating it, and aiming lower in certain situations.
I didn't really start to understand it until I started filming and had the footage to go back through on the computer using the editing software. We would go frame by frame to see the position of the deer drop super fast in the last few frames. To the naked eye you can't even see it, most times. I think that is why people think they are shooting high, but in reality the deer dropped and came back up so fast that they didn't even see the movement.
If you use a heavier arrow, the bow will be substantially quieter...Nearly silent. However, you then have to deal with a lot of arrow drop. You would have to limit yourself to closer shots
Or you have to use a rangefinder on anything past about 25 yards.
I've just started sighting my bow in low and taking a lable maker and printing a tiny lable to stick on my riser at the same elevation of my sight saying AIM LOW !!. like I say ask your self how many deer have you ever shot low?
That is a really good practice Josh. I know a lot of people who do that, especially with the 30 yard pin. Thanks for the comment and good luck this fall.
The first buck I ever shot at I missed low and of course he didn't duck despite being 30 yards away.
It is so hard to know for sure what to do. Rarely do they not duck when they are alert (though sometimes they don't) and they do sometimes duck even when they are not alert. What to do? I think you have to aim low and take your lumps when they don't duck. Ideally, if they are close enough it doesn't matter. Inside 25 yards I never aim low no matter what. Good luck.
Found this after I missed high yesterday. Wish I found it earlier bc I probably wouldn't have made that same mistake. Thanks for the footage and tips.
Sorry for the misfortune. You will get the next one. Good luck.
Bill, since moving to trad hunting (2002), I have seen that distance (closer for accuracy) and less noise and movement are important. Last season, another lesson learned was with self bows (even quieter) and on an alert doe, I need not aim at the brisket, but aim at the heart or just behind. I’ve had louder recurves cause string jump where aiming really low helps. Yep, she didn’t move!
Good insight. I shot a few deer with recurves back in the early 90s but they were so close that I didn't have to worry about them beating my arrow. I have had some really quiet compounds over the years and the deer even heard those. The only time I have not had deer hear the bow was when they were in the woods and the wind was blowing. Then I have not seen any reaction to the shot. One buck I shot at and missed and he never knew it. He just started walking again and actually came closer where I finally killed him! That was a windy day though.
Longbow chads do have this problem so much
This happened to me this last bow season, 35 yards broad side, un alerted I aimed low for him to duck my arrow and he didn’t duck. I hit him low in no man’s land and ended up finding him last week shed hunting. Definitely not the way I wanted to find him but glad I did find him.
I think the only other thing you could do in that situation is to aim off the deer (below the brisket line) and then if he doesn't duck you miss him clean. It is super hard to know exactly what any deer will do when they hear the shot and that same deer might react differently on different days. Who knows. Very inexact science. Just aim low enough that you miss if they don't drop, I guess. That is my strategy, for the most part. Good luck.
Happened to me two years ago at 40 yds. Still was able to double lung, but high shot and he turned. First time that I realized that after 36 years of hunting. Amazing to see.
It is amazing. I never realized how often it happens until I started filming the hunts.
I don't think there's a right and wrong on this one. I think it's a matter of preference, and an individual's situation.
I've never made a bleat sound just so I can stop a deer's movement. I planned my shots ahead, as it gets within range. Sometimes, it can walk right past me and I'll just let it be.
I don't own land, so I don't have the luxury of choosing which deer I want to take, and when. So I've always had to try my best not to spook it. I've missed plenty of time, when my arrow hit a twig or something other than the deer. For the most part, the deer would do a quick jump, look around.....then it either goes back to feeding, or walking cautiously away, but never really run. This is especially true, when it's windy, or when acorns are dropping. I even get second chances because the deer thought my missed shots were acorns dropping. It jumps, and goes right back to eating. That's when the second chance comes in. That's just my situation. I hunt the same spot most of the year, so I can't afford to spook them. I could be totally wrong on this.
I don't think you are wrong, it just comes down to where to aim once you decide to take the shot. If the shot is past 20 yards, there is some chance it will drop when it hears the bow fire even it appears completely relaxed. That is the hard part, knowing exactly where to aim. Good luck this fall.
I’ve always said good thing I’m not a target “3D shooter” because when I sight my bow in its at least 1 inches low at 20 at 30 I’m right at 2 inches low and I don’t worry to much about 40 anymore I more than likely will not draw back..
Fergie, that is a good way to do it. I know others that do that too. I think, from my experience, you need to be at least four inches low at 30. I think dead on at 20 and 40 is a crap shoot. I aim below the brisket on alert 40 yard shots. Probably at least six inches low. Good luck.
Great video and explained a lot of my 2nd guessing work. Southern deer are way more jumpy. Or maybe their reaction time is there because of the lack of massive fat bodied animals like the Midwest 😂
We love our fat bodied deer! A agree, they are much quicker in the south. I once took a 22 yard shot at a doe in Mississippi that was completely gone by the time the arrow got there and I was shooting about 290 fps at the time. I was shocked. I have seen anything like that here in Iowa. The quickest one I have seen was the one I shot on Nov. 22 here. She was under 20 yards and still dropped about two to three inches by the time the arrow got there.
Good information for young hunters. Also , need to emphasize the importance of patience, and self control. Need to ne happy with passing on a deer when situation isn’t good.
I agree. Your maximum range is not how far you can hit a four inch circle your backyard - that circle in your backyard isn't moving. Your maximum range is just as much (if not more) dictated by the deer's reaction to shot as it is your shooting ability. Good post.
Great info Bill, I've always been the type to Aim low because it seems the deer in the part of NC I live in are always on high alert. I've seen a couple instances where they didn't jump but I was still in the kill zone..
I have hunted deer in the south some, but in my experience they are definitely faster to drop than Midwest deer. Sounds like your strategy is working perfectly. Thanks for the input. Have a great day.
Great video Bill , I have had my share of ups and downs with this . Unfortunately Its been on some of my biggest that i have shot at . It’s definitely a tough moment in the whitetail woods in the rut being that sometime you have only a few seconds to get a shot or make a decision. Look forward to another video . Thanks Bill
Thanks Alvin. Yes, in the calm of your living room this all seems a lot easier than it does in the deer woods. Plus, I am not necessarily one of those "ice water in his veins" kind of guys anyway. So, I have to remove as many decisions from the moment of truth as I can by making those decisions and rehearsing in advance. Good luck.
Ive read many of your articles on this and I think you have it about as good as possible. You have to play the odds and you cant shoot fast enough to beat the drop.
That's what I have learned. I think we aim dead on out to 20-25 yards and then we have to aim increasingly low. 40 yards is a really long shot at a whitetail for this reason. Good luck.
I know it’s hard to believe but I’m a veteran bow hunter and have shot my fair share of deer over the years but I once had a shot on a doe at under 20 yards she came in and gave me a broadside side on her right side on the shot she wheeled around and done a 180 and I hit her on her left side unbelievable I couldn’t believe my eyes and still recovered the deer
That is amazing. I had a similar experience: a doe in Mississippi once that was 22 yards away. I thought nothing of it, aimed for the vitals and triggered the shot. She was completely gone from sight picture by the time arrow got there. She was so quick that she was completely gone. That sure doesn't happen with the big, comparatively slow Midwest deer I am used to hunting! Thanks for the comment.
I use a single movable pin. Ive gotten lucky on a few occasions on my better bucks shooting 35 yards with my 20 yard pin in the heat of the moment aiming for the lungs. In all cases I heart shot them. I did the same thing out in Kansas on a giant. He never dropped because even on public land I found the deer not to be anywhere as alert as a deer from PA.
Ken, that is a very good lesson. Reading body language during the moment of truth is tough. There is a lot going on, but aiming low usually works. I would have done the same thing on the KS buck I am guessing. We get them dropping here in Iowa a lot and the pressure is not higher here than KS. I think that buck in KS was just lucky. It was not his day to die, unfortunately for you.
🎯 sir, sometimes like you said I believe they react to sound, when I've very lightly scraped bark they can bug out, the visual cue is also very likely an eyeball on something just not right that moves, I hate having to aim where I do not want to hit, crossbows are now legal here with the 400 fps ish crossbows at reasonable ranges I've been able to aim where I want to hit, Growing Deer TV has an excellent video of this with a sound engineer, arrow speed vs. deer reaction time, it matters. -W. Liggett
I have seen that video that Grant did. I have seen deer react from every possible angle. I used to shoot a ton of does every year and they are worse at jumping the string than bucks. I have seen lots of them with the heads up that dropped. Maybe they don't drop as fast as those with their heads down, but they definitely react too. It almost seems at times that you are better off putting them on alert so you at least know what they are going to do. Some of the seemingly relaxed bucks and does dropped at the sound just as much as the ones on alert. It is hard to guess what they are going to do. Anyway, that is why I started aiming a little low on all my shots, even the ones that don't seem alert. Good luck this fall.
🎯 sir, same for me with slower bows & heavier arrow setups, since going to my KI Ripper 425 xbow with a 390 gr. tw Carbon Express Maxima dual spine bolt tipped with a Swhacker #207 2" cut 100 gr broadhead they fly same as my field points for me, fast, flat shooting and accurate, at reasonable ranges I no longer have to hold at the lower smaller target area anticipating drop, I've been able to aim where I want to hit now and always get an exit thus far, many deer down and quick, we love your channel, great videos. -W. Liggett
One thing I've noticed is with high poundage bows is the release is making noise when fired , seen videos and heard it at same time deer start dropping before the arrow leaves the bow, just a thought you would like to hear. Good luck to all bow hunters as i get older i know my days are numbered.
Ah, Jeff. You need to enjoy every one of them to the fullest! Celebrate every day! Thanks for the comment. We all appreciate it. Have a great day.
i had a buck roll backwards and drop to the floor on my fifteen yd shot from behind a tree. I initially thought I dropped him on the spot. not that time
Wow, I had a doe in Mississippi once completely vacate the sight picture at 25 yards. She was completely gone by the time the arrow got there. I had never (and have never) seen anything like that in the Midwest. Crazy quick.
Ive always aimed where the white of the belly meets the brown, right on the line behind the front leg and its been 98% success rate. I dont want to talk about that 2% 😂😂
Perfect solution. Nice job.
What ever happened to that one you wounded high? That was an awesome buck!
If you are referring to the thumbnail for the video, I actually aimed low on that deer. I ended up getting him. We just showed this image for reference to show what happens if you aim at the normal spot and they react to the sound of the shot. Thanks for the comment and have a great day.
Great vidoe Bill. I 100% agree with you. I grew up with a weekend warrior gun hunting family. I started bow hunting and had to learn everything on my own. I struggled with high hits and continued for about 10 years or so and also losing a few deer. Now days I aim low heart in the armpit area. If they don't drop at all its smoke city. Even it they do I tend to hit them perfectly dead center lung. I just couldn't get myself to aim under the brisket like you do but to each their own. I also noted there are a lot of broadheads, even vanes that whistle. Have a friend stand down range in a safe place (behind shed or something) and take a few shots. You'll be amazed how some sound like Netflix footballs going towards the target. Best bowhunting advice you can give is to ALWAYS AIM LOW!!
Love the vidoes
PS my less experienced brother won't listen to me when I tell him this 😅. He'll learn the hard way 😢.
Michigan Man, thanks and your brother will definitely learn the hard way. We all do, it seems! You are probably low enough with a heart aimpoint on most deer, but I have seen a few at 30 yards that dropped 10 inches, though I don't think I have seen one on video drop more than that. Maybe I need to raise my aimpoint slightly. Good input. Have a great day.
@@bill-winke thanks you too. I rarely ever shoot more than 30yds, 35 tops.
I've only been bowhunting seriously for about 5 years now and I've had 2 deer completely duck an arrow. One was a 135" buck at 40 yards (my only 40 yard shot ever) and another a doe at 23 yards roughly. Im not sure if I'm right or not but I've tryed to aim for just the heart or low enough to hit the heart on quartering away shots this past year. I don't ever normally shoot over 30 yards but I don't have near the experience of alot of really good hunters. It seems that just as you're saying Bill that it can be very situational.
It is situational but the rules aren't clear. One time the deer reacts a certain way in that situation and the next time it reacts a different way. Also, not all deer have the same sensitivity to the sound of the bow. So, after all these years, I am just mostly aiming low on everything and living with the miss if the deer doesn't drop. I wish it was more predictable, but it just isn't, unfortunately. Good luck.
@@bill-winke thanks Bill👍
You're flat out wrong bill... all my shots are on the dot on most deer... as I said on all past stuff like this. By the time the tip of the broadhead pokes the deer. They start crouching... 1 it's that way your bows set up. 2 it's all about how calm the wind is. Windy conditions can cause you arrow to group off.
I have 2 examples from personal experiences . First happened several years ago . Nice p&y 9pt. He and his small 8pt buddy had been playing around while coming in. Finally, the big buck gave me a shot at 37 yards. At the release, the buck spun to face the smaller buck . At the release, I was aiming behind the right shoulder. I hit him squarely in the LEFT EYE ! He bolted w the arrow hanging out of the eye socket. A quick decent and pursuit ended with a killing shot while He was hung up in some vines.
Next was several years later on a super nice 150+ 8pt. He was following a doe and stopped at 27 yards . The pin was set for 18yrds to hit on point at 30ft for straight down shots from my normal 30ft stand height. I aimed bottom heart expecting 3-5 inches of reaction to the shot. He didn't move at all til the arrow smacked a tree trunk on the other side of him . I cut 2 hairs on the leg /chest angle .clean miss. That setup was shooting 326fps and it shot 2.5 " low at 27 yards. I missed right where the arrow was suppose to hit at 27yds.
All we can do is roll the dice based on the situation . It took 5 years to get over that last one, lol.
Dream Big man down here in MS!
Good Topic. I say shoot a quieter bow with heavy arrows and now mechanicals. if you miss you miss and if you hit, you get penetration. Even if you hit high and get a pass through, that deer will survive if its a muscle hit. if you're hunting quick deer, shoot them closer.
Interesting that at 40 yrds+ they dont hear the bow and drop. This suggests its the bow noise and not the arrow sound?
They do still hear it but they don't seem as sensitive to the sound. For example, if you were walking across your lawn at night and something makes a sound in a bush only a few feet away, you would react differently than if the same sound came from a bush 40 yards away. That is part of it. I still aim low at 40 yards. It is kind of a crap shoot past that distance - part of the reason I don't like shots past 40 yard no matter how good you are with a bow - where do you aim? That is the tough question. Thanks for the comment. Have a great day.
deer drop quicker with their head down "feeding". i try not to stop a deer . never not hold on hair. and your bow should go off with a dull thud rather than a sharp twak.
All good advice. Thanks for the support and the input.
How much of this would you say applies to Crossbow? Maintain the same rules as for standard archery? Thanks. 😁
I think of it does. Crossbows tend to be a bit faster so the amount the deer drops may be slightly less, but it definitely still applies. Anything past 30 yards I suspect you will still need to aim a bit low (maybe heart area). Good luck.
@@bill-winke thanks! I need all the help I can get as I’m just trying to get the dang thing sighted in. It would be nice to have it ready for November. Already taken it in for a professional once over twice and they said nothing is wrong with the scope (all they did was tighten some bolts)
If this little archery place had a shooting range, she absolutely would’ve helped me, but she can’t. Gotta do this on my own. 😔
Always great to get insight from people like you that have taken so many deer and seen so much variation. I can't say I've had a 'gimmee' shot in my short career yet!
I have had a few slam dunks in my life, but anything past 25 yards always has some element of uncertainty in it. That is why I have finally just decided that aiming low is the key on almost all the shots I will take past that distance.
Don't alert deer if you don't have to. I see a lot of videos where people alert deer that didn't have to. keep those shots low on the kill zone and good luck.
BirdDog, I agree, but I have sure seen them drop both ways. Rarely do they drop when they are walking, but I have seen many perfectly relaxed deer (bucks and does) drop at the sound of the shot.
Lot of depends on the pressure too I think I hunt Alabama and you go to public lane
Agree. I have hunted deer in the south and they are way more likely to drop at the shot - and they are quicker too so they drop farther.
A man that speaks the truth! SE ALA deer laugh at a arrow past 30yd especially if you stopem.
Quartering away shots are most forgiving, not always possible, but when it is, usually it's "good night Irene" afterwards.
I love those too. Any impact seems to lead to the vitals on those shots.
Just move your sights higher problem solved never have to think about string jump again 🤷🏻♂️
Mark, that probably makes sense for the 30 and 40 yard pins when whitetail hunting, but not the 20 yard pin. I need to think about it some more to try to decide if there is a downside to this approach. Thanks for the input. Have a great day.
Holy crap Bill replying to me 🤯!! Iv been doing it last few years I just adjusted my pins and left my 20 yard alone. I aim center mass every shot it’s just natural like target practice to me at this point I have my 30 and 40 drop about 6” short of where I’m aiming and it ether heart shot them or if they duck double lung same thing as aiming low, just in the heat of the moment I don’t have to think about it my bow is already calibrated for it just put the pin center of the shoulder and watch the magic happen gotta trust in the process it works
Lmao
I think this discussion is more solid evidence why bow hunters should strive to get as close as possible for their shots on live animals. Some influencers want to take 90 yard shots on live animals and not show the follow up shot taken with a rifle, but there is a lot that can happen during the flight of an arrow. I’ve been fortunate that I’ve never had a deer jump the string on me. I shot a 10 point that was walking steadily. I picked a spot in his path to draw and then shot. I let him walk into the arrow. The deer never reacted until my arrow was through him. I found him within 30 yards of the shot. I was also taught to shoot at the bottom of the vitals, and always tend to hold low, think low 12 on a ASA target.
As far as the sound goes, I believe the arrow is the detriment to arrow impacting the target animal. The sound is very comparable to baseball heading towards a batter. I also made a video from the targets POV and it is very surprising how easy it is to pick up the arrow sound vs. bow with the camera microphone. I think most misinterpret what the see in a video. We see the shot, and then see a deer drop and automatically assume it’s the bow. But in that half a second, there is a arrow hissing towards the animal. There is no cure (yet) to over come the arrows noise as it passes through air towards the target. The heavy arrow crowd may have an additional point in their argument, as you slow down an arrow wind sheer over the broad head and vanes will be reduced, and possibly not alert the animal as much.
@@6saturdaysaweek LMAO! We’re talking about 20-40 yards where did you come from!
Try southern deer...
My son had this happen TWICE yesterday with me in the tree next to him yesterday. Had one deer at 12. yards drop completely to the ground where her chest touched!! He aimed one inch BELOW the chest and still skipped off her back. It was nuts.
Slower bow cause 13 years old but still.. 40# diamond infinite edge pro 26" draw. Again. 10 yards. Feeding on acorns at 12 yards.
Another at 15 he shot for heart and it wasn't close . Missed 4 inches high.
HA. Thanks for mentioning it right after I posted 😊. They are wild
I hunted Mississippi a few times. Had a doe at 22 yards one time. Shooting probably around 290 fps. She was completely gone by the time the arrow got there. I was shocked that any living thing could react that fast.
They will drop 6-10 inches, aim accordingly based on the distance. I made a 55 yard shot on a 200 pound buck with my crossbow that shots 340 feet per second. The shot was made from a box stand 13 foot off the ground, near the end of shoot light. The deer walked in to 25 yards straight at me turn turned abruptly and started walking away. I tensed, thinking my opportunity was decreasing with every step he took. I bleated a call at 35 years and he just kept walking at 50 yards I did the same thing but much louder. He turned right and gave me a perfect 1/4 away shot. I aimed 6 inches over his back for the distance and made a perfect heart shot. In the low lighten conditions I thought I actually missed the deer. I believe the shot was very lucky and blessed but I hope I never do it again. I now have a crossbow that shoots 385 feet per second and shoots 2 inch shot groups at 50 yards but I plan all my shots from 15-35 yards.
Speed definitely helps, I have seen that with compound bows. I wish they all did the same thing, but they don't. I have seen some drop that seemed completely relaxed and some not drop that were alert. To play it safe, you have to aim low on all of the shots. Have a great day.
Exactly how my story played out this year. Had a nice 8pt on October 28th at 22 yards, and sailed one just over his back. Shooting an old Oneida; a dinosaur by today's FPS standards. I was aiming for vitals while I should have been at the brisket. Tough way to learn, but I'm thankful for a clean miss instead of wounding the deer.
It is a really hard lesson. I have learned it many times under a wide range of conditions. I have learned that it is almost impossible to judge 100% how any deer will react to the sound of the shot. All you can do is aim low on your longer shots. Good luck and thanks for the comment.
Hey Biil, I believe that Mark Drury sights his bow 2 inches low (impact point) at 20 yards, 3 inches low at 30, and 4 inches low at 40.
That makes a lot of sense. Something I should probably be doing too. Good input. Thanks.
Speed of sound is 1125 fps. Fast bow is 300 fps. Which gets there first? Arrow sound w/ vanes and feathers also contributes to this also.
Exactly. I did a long mathematical study on this one time and came the same exact results that we have seen on video - you have to aim at least 6 inches low on 30 yard shots if it looks like the deer is likely to drop. Have a great day.
My solution with my setup (300fps) where i hunt is i shoot a single pin slider set to 24 yds and i aim exactly the same spot from 5yds-40yds without ever moving my pin. It auto compensates for deer dropping.
I have heard of guys doing that. I would be tempted then to grunt at every deer I shoot at to be sure they are all alert and likely to drop rather than not being sure.
Hunted MS my whole life. I’ve had 2 does, one at 25 yards, broadside completely push and spin away from the arrow. Watched the arrow sail right where I was aiming and the deer get outta there. It’s truly incredible.
Yes, the fastest deer I have ever seen was in MS. It was a doe too. She was at 22 yards and was completely gone when the arrow got there. She was alert, but still, I didn't expect her to move that fast. I was shocked.
But are you using anything on the string? Be honest
Just the string silencers that come with the Hoyt bows. I have very rarely shot at a deer where they didn't hear it, maybe a couple of times, always when the wind was blowing pretty hard. Even recurve shooters have the same problem in still days.
the immediate after shot behaviors like quickly lowering bow post release. Adds a visual component backed up by sound
Thanks for the comment Andy. Good luck this fall.
WOW this very thoughtful video. I have always had this problem. It has caused me to stop bow hunting at times for a couple of years. Um trying to figure this out and debating what bow I should use this year
Tim, I appreciate it. My personal conclusion is that a faster bow will reduce how far a deer can drop after hearing the sound. Some think that a quieter bow will be quiet enough that the deer don't hear it, but it has been experience that this is only true on windy days. Otherwise, it is tough to get a bow quiet enough especially if the deer is already alert. Good luck.
Knowing limits is important. 30 yard max for me. I’m paranoid of wounding
And well we should all be. I think if you are good on the range to 40 then a 40 yard shot is reasonable when hunting, but again, only if you aim low. Good input. Thanks for the support.
I sight my bow in 2-3 inches low for this reason.
That is smart Ed. Good thinking and thanks for the comment.
@@bill-winke thanks Bill.
Hey Bill, I have noticed when their head is down, they have a more drastic drop. Somthing to keep in mind with relaxed deer. I would value a alert deer's consistency over a relaxed deer's unknown characteristic.
I have heard that too, but I have also seen many of them drop really fast with their heads up. When you stop a walking buck for the shot, his head is up and I have seen several of them drop right off the map when the bow fired. I am not willing to adjust my aim point depending on the head position alone. I have seen too many deer drop a lot with their heads up.
Good topic, Mr. Winke. I appreciate that you addressed stopping deer. I’ve been preaching for years that when you stop a deer, it’s being alerted and the likelihood of it ducking the arrow increases exponentially. People want to argue with me because I’m not an expert…even though I’ve been bowhunting since the ‘70s. Coming from you, maybe people will be more willing to accept it as the truth.
Also, this new belief that the deer is alerted by the sound of the arrow rather than the “pop” of the bow going off is nonsense. The sound of the bow gets to the deer probably before the arrow is even a few inches off the string.
Russell, thanks for the comment. I used to shoot all my deer 25 yards and in walking. If they were farther, I stopped them and if they were moving faster than a walk I stopped them. But once we started doing video I decided I had better not do that anymore because I was probably sending the wrong message. I practiced those moving shots and had a pretty good system for executing them, but I didn't want people to start shooting at moving deer without that background. Like you, I think they react to the first thing they hear, whether that is the bow or the arrow - or both. Good input. Have a great day.
I never try to stop a buck with a grunt right before shooting. I know i dont film my hunts and thats why I think lots of guys do it, for the footage but i wont do that. why put a buck on high alert?
Mike, it is not for the footage that we stop them, it is because if we shoot them walking we will get widely criticized for being unethical because we are setting a bad example. Not everyone has practiced the skills to make those walking shots and we would seem to be encouraging something (the walking shot) that would result in bad hits for many people watching the videos. But as we have noticed, stopping them can also result in bad hits.
@@bill-winke I believe that for sure. people who film hunts for the public to see have to be really careful on what shots you show in videos. I learned a long time ago not to take walking shots. as a young hunter i shot very far back on a buck that was walking slow but was 30 yards away. i killed him but it wasnt a hunt for TV. I now try to let them stop naturally. i've had to watch really nice bucks walk out of range because they never stopped but thats just the way those hunts went. Now if i needed content to make money, who knows what i'd be doing
also Bill, thanks for engaging so much with your subscribers. really makes your channel stand apart
Does drop significantly more. I aimed low into the heart lung area broadside from a ladder stand 17 feet up and 20 yards. The doe dropped and the bolt hit just below the spine and fortunately severed the main artery.
I have sure seen my share of bucks drop too, unfortunately. I do think does are more likely to drop when they aren't alert than bucks, but both drop a lot when they hear the shot.
Really good info. Did not realize they dropped that much
Thanks!
Thanks Sara. We appreciate the support and comment. Have a great day and good luck.
Old school bowhunter here no trigger release no peep sight never stopped a deer on purpose in 40 years take walking shots all the time don't take shots over 32 yards in my opinion peep interferes with field of vision fingers are a more fluid release on moving deer stopping deer just puts them on high alert shoot same bow I bought when I was 14 unfortunately most new bows are built for a release unless traditional
David, it is a good system - it it's not broke, don't fix it. The bow I bought when I was 14 was a Bear Whitetail Hunter and I definitely would not want to be shooting that anymore! Most bows in the past 15 years are really good, but there were definitely some duds produced in the 80s, 90s, and early 2000s. I owned a few of them. Have a great day.
you just said it....I practice to 60, shoot to 25 and I prefer 12 to 17 yards. Ha
I would take 12 to 17 yard shots for the rest of my life! Thanks for the comment.
There is a DVD called Dead deer walking , that talks about this.Good DVD if a guy can find it.
I will see if I can find it. Thanks for the comment and the support. Have a great day.
This is a big reason that I shoot a crossbow. People talk about it not being as sportsmanlike, and to an extent, I get it. Shooting a crossbow is far less challenging. But from an ethical standpoint, when you're shooting a bolt at 400+FPS, SO MUCH of the guesswork is eliminated. And to me, minimizing the risk of injuring a deer with a non-lethal shot makes it worth it.
I never thought about it that way, Isaac. I don't have an agenda against crossbows, but I will say they are not the same as shooting a vertical bow - but that is what you are saying too. I never thought of them as being more ethical. I suppose any weapon can be ethical or not ethical depending on how it used, be it vertical bow or crossbow. Thanks for the input.
@@bill-winke Absolutely! A crossbow shot at 80 yards is a lot less ethical than a vertical bow shot at 20 yards.
For me, I have young kids and only get to hunt around 10 times a year. So I want to maximize my effectiveness on converting encounters to kills. I feel comfortable with my crossbow out to 40. With a compound bow, it'd be less. And that has more to due with the velocity difference than my own personal profficiencey.
This is one of the best videos on this topic anywhere. Several times you mentioned making another video about this. Please do so soon if you can. Thank you for all the great content you and Jordan share on this channel and good luck this season!
Thanks Adam. We should have some downtime now as we are done with the farm projects and haven't started hunting yet. We will take another crack at this topic. Have a great day.
That’s actually not true deer are more likely to duck more when they are walking because they can duck and run faster than if they’re standing up, fully and looking at you
It's possible, but the biggest problem with jumping comes at 30 yards and farther and I never have taken a walking shot at those distances so I am not sure how the deer react to the shot when walking at those distances. Thanks for the comment.
I made a tight aim on a buck in the triangle behind the shoulder only to hit the center of the shoulder blade when he heard the pop from my crossbow at 30 yards. I found the skeletal remains 2 years later.
Sorry to hear that. That does stink.
So I did a video on arrow noise. “Arrow Noise, Why deer duck the string”. You can watch it or not that’s not the point but vanes and arrow weight do make a difference as well as bow noise. I started to put GoPros in the field and captured the arrows buzzing, one arrow SPINED a deer because of it. Awesome video.
I still think they react to the first thing they hear whether it is the sound of the shot or the sound of the arrows. I know the arrows make noise as they fly, but that noise will get to the deer after the sound of the release. Maybe they react to both, as they blur together. The entire phenomena is more or less a mystery still. All we know for sure is that they do react and that if you don't anticipate it, you will hit high. Thanks for the input.
@@bill-winke oh no doubt. I love videos like this. I’m a geek when it comes to hunting and having a more ethical hunting setup. I like the idea of a faster setup but a heavier setup is quieter. I love it. Again thanks for the video
@@groundrootsoutdoors627 You are welcome. Thanks for watching.
I think you’ve hit on this before but don’t you think you can take a shot where you’re so far away that the deer doesn’t even hear the bow go off? I shot a mule deer at 92 yards in utah last year and the deer didn’t move at all and I pinwheeled him. My only guess was that he didn’t hear the bow or arrow coming and that’s why he didn’t react at all
That would be my guess too, regarding the mule deer. My experience with mule deer is that they are even more likely to drop since the way they run (bounce) requires them to drop dramatically just to get going. I have shot a couple of mule deer that really dropped. In my limited experience with whitetails at longer ranges, this is not the case. I shot a doe one time at 60 yards (a very long shot for a whitetail). She was facing to the right and when the arrow got there she was in the exact same spot but facing to the left! I was lucky to get both lungs on that one, but it showed me that they can (and do) still react to the bow at longer ranges. Maybe the number of jumpers at 60 yards is less as a percentage of the herd than the number at 30 yards, but they can still do it - so the question of where to aim still remains. Good input.
I love this topic and I will continue splitting hears on this just for the sake of conversation and debate. Let’s use numbers and science, and a 40 yard shot illustration. Sound travels at 375 yards per sec, this means it would take 0.106 seconds for the sound of the bow to get to the deer at 40 yards, with a 300fps arrow, this gets your arrow to 10.6 yards out of the bow before the deer hears the bow. This leaves 30 yards of “flight” time for the deer to react, if we can get 250 fps for those 30 yards, that gives the deer 0.36 sec to react. That seams like a lot of reaction time in my mind. (We could figure out how fast they can drop from start to arrow impact in Premier Pro timeline). In all the shot illustrations on the video, the deer seam to start dropping when the arrow is 10 +/- yards from the deer. At the 5:30 mark on the 40 yard shot with several other deer feeding around, the only deer that drops before the arrow gets there is the target deer, the rest all react after the arrow hits. It would make sense to me that the deer that react from just the shot are the deer that get completely out of the sight picture. If you “stop” a deer, this is more likely to happen. Again at the 5:30 in the video, at 40 yards and I’m assuming out of a redneck, it would seam they didn’t even hear the shot, and he still got just a few inches of drop before the arrow hits and the other deer react to his reaction, except maybe the 1.5 on the left edge of the frame.
This still leaves us with a combination somewhere between reacting to just the bow going off (super jumpers), to hearing the bow then the arrow, to long distance shots and quite arrows where they hear nothing. 😅
I once ran all the numbers on this and decided to give the deer .1 seconds of reaction time. I think that is probably too slow but it is an easy number to work with. I ran the study with a 260 fps bow and a 300 fps bow. The difference in how far the deer dropped at 30 yards was about three inches. So, increasing your arrow speed (one way or another) from 260 fps to 300 fps bought you about three inches at 30 yards. In my video study, (using the audio profile on the timeline to signify when the bow went off and then counting frames - each one is 1/30 of a second) I see most deer in my area start to drop when the arrow is about 20 yards from the bow. That is why I say that shots of 20 and in, no need to aim low. In the south that is different - they react faster. Good insight. Have a great day.
Really enjoy your Siri. Is there a bill? Keep them, my friend.
Not sure what this means, John, but I am going to take it as a compliment(?). Thanks for the comment and have a great day.
I am wondering if it would be beneficial to sight the bow pins about 1 inch low from bullseye.
I have considered this but I haven't done it yet. Maybe you are right, maybe that is the best strategy. I need to think about the tradeoffs some more. Good input. Have a great day.
Man awesome video. Did this literally yesterday missed a nice 6 point. Ill get him next time anticipating the drop with my aim.
That's right. You will get him next time. Good luck.
Bill, wouldn't you aim low and also slightly forward so that when they drop and turn away you are not in the gut? thanks, Bob
Not necessarily forward. In my experience they drop and wheel away and that actually means the aimpoint would have to down and BACK. For now, just stick with low. I will study some more video and come up with whether or not it makes sense to aim back on every shot. But I don't think forward is a good idea - not from what I have seen. Good input. Thanks.
Thanks for being honest and not letting ego get in the way. Good stuff.
Thanks for the comment Wendall. I appreciate it and the kind words. Have a great day.
Great topic Bill. Do you believe that this could be related somehow to the deer's experiences through their life to that point?
I do Art. I think in some areas they are wired tighter too. Whether that is hunting pressure or predation or something else. Some deer are just jumpier than others, even in the same range. Also, if a buck has a doe on his mind, he is less likely to drop down to run than if he is just out feeding - in my experience. I wish this was easier to predict. Good luck.
Thanks for not trying to sell me seeds every 5 seconds, saying you thought of it first and instead just being a real and honest hunting buddy in your videos.
I appreciate the comment Philip. I hope you have a great day.
Once again you've pounted out that there's no always or never in bow hunting. Thanks for the video.
That is for sure Kirk. As much as we want to find specifics that we can hang our hats on as gospel, there are very few things that deer always do or never do. I wish they reacted to the shot more consistently though. I once thought I would just making a sound to alert them all before taking the shot so the likelihood of them jumping was higher (almost certain) across the boards. At least I would know what to expect. That might be where I end up one day. Good luck.
The animal gets a say. Thank you for the vid!
Thanks for the comment.
It seems to me deer definitely duck more when their head is down compared to at alert.
It does make sense that they can duck farther (or quicker) when they can use their head-raise movement for leverage to lower their body, but I don't think they duck more often when they have their head down. Maybe we are both saying the same thing. Good input. Thanks for the comment.
I find it interesting that at the 6:16 mark those two does are inline with each other but the doe closest to you reacts first and then a split second later the second doe starts to load it’s legs. So the question maybe still remains, are they reacting to the sound of the arrow? Bow or was the second doe reacting to the first doe dropping?
I will probably die with the belief that they are reacting to the first sound they hear, which in most cases, is the bow. Good point though. I never noticed that the two does reacted at different times. It just shows how truly unpredictable this is and why you always have to assume they will drop even if they don't. Some don't, for whatever reason. Some drop faster than others, etc. This is a very inexact science.
Thanks for this advice, I had a few high and back hits this last season, that I could not recover.
I plan on aiming for the low heart this coming season.
That should really help. It is amazing how much they drop even when they don't seem alert. Good luck.
Thanks....this is good advise for me
Thanks for the support Tak. We appreciate it and good luck this fall.
I've never had a mature buck jump the string despite one of them being shot at just over 50 yards and one just under 50 yards. I've had several smaller more nimble does and fawn do it. The difference might be the bucks we're in cover and in rut mode vs the slickheads being out of the rut and more in feeding mode as well as out on a fooplot in a more exposed higher stress environment where they we on edge. I've had deer not only duck the string but flat out gone before the arrow got there. It is mind blowing.
It is amazing how quick they are. I think you are on to something there. I do think they are more likely to jump the string in open settings. Also, I think the sound of the bow carries better in those settings too. Good input.
@@bill-winke That's another reason that I shoot about a 400 grain arrow and don't buy into the heavy arrow thing. Just like coyote hunting with a fast flat bullet the fastest flattest projectile takes as much guess work out as possible and gets there as fast as possible. It seems so many people build their setups around bad shots. If you put it in the boiler room nothing else really matters imo.
@@natemihlbachler3511 Agreed. I hate to come out with any conclusive thoughts, but my own experience suggests that speed is more important than people think on beating string jumpers. If we could consistently get our bows quiet enough that the deer don't hear them, then I would change my mind. If they are going to hear it anyway, then getting the arrow there sooner is a big advantage.
Thanks for the information!
I appreciate the support and the comment Shane. Have a great day.
Thanks and God bless.
We appreciate the support and the comment. God Bless you too.
Good words
Thanks for the comment Jeffery. Much appreciated. Have a great day.