Theological Determinism - God vs Free Will
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 ก.ย. 2024
- Join George and John as they discuss and debate different Philosophical ideas. Today they will be looking into Theological Determinism.
Does the existence of God we do not have free will? If God is all knowing then He can see into the future. If He can see into the future then He can see how an event will turn out before it has happened, meaning it is therefore destined to turn out in one way and one way only.
Does this mean that our actions have been determined before we choose them, and does this eliminate the idea of free will?
Watch as our two favourite Philosophers attempt to answer this question.
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#theologicaldeterminism #divineforeknowledge #freewill #philosophy
This script is part of...
- The Philosophy Vibe - Free Will vs Determinism eBook, available on Amazon:
mybook.to/philosophyvibe8
- The Philosophy Vibe Paperback Anthology Vol 2 'Metaphysics' available worldwide on Amazon:
mybook.to/philosophyvibevol2
Hello and thanks for this video. I am new to philosophy so I hope you will forgive me if I have got hold of the wrong end of the stick. Actually, I was quite shocked when I listened to this, because I have also been studying physics and would like to draw attention to some of the theories I have found. In particular the many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics. Also the block universe. These to theories seem to be echoed in your discussion. After watching the video a couple of times I thought, surely some will already have made this connection and will have spoken about it in the comments. I was surprised to find no one had mentioned this. Many physicists think of time as being like a film, all the action is there, but fixed for all time to us it seems to flow and we can make our choices but to someone or something, god? standing outside time it's like watching a film and you can look at any part of the film, it's all there, done. Also the many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics suggests that not just one of a set of possible outcomes that may occur, does occur but that all possible outcomes occur!!. What do you think about that?
Thanks again.
This channel is criminally-underrated; these are some of the best videos on philosophy I've ever seen. Keep up the great work!
Thank you very much, it's great to hear the value these videos bring, and there is a lot more to come :)
@40 Something Gamer But the way it is determined to be rated is not necessarely what it deserves.
One of the best Philosophy Channels and in fact underrated. The questioning and answering method is very helpful. I am really aided by these discussions. Thank you!
Better than any article that came up on google, thank you very much. Can't wait to see this channel explode like the big bang lmao.
Thank you so much!
To quote the Cosmic Sceptic
"There are only two reasons why anybody does anything 1 is because you want to 2 because you are forced to,where is the freedom in only doing what you want ?
So what if God knows what would we do if he didin't know the future and accepts those choices as the all choices we'd make? I mean our lives is in a way still predetermined but still it's determined exactly like if it wasn't predetermined.
I concur with the non-linear explanation of time and God.
God created mankind to have free will. We have the power to love or reject God.
If you were a creator, would you for example, create a pet dog that would automatically love you?
Basically an automaton. Or would you give it free will, so if it does show love, then it is "real" love.
Similar to the love of a child to their parent.
After watching numerous videos on Near Death Experience testimonials, I believe that we choose and plan our lives before we are born. We choose our parents, our future partners, and the events that will shape our lives. God somehow, as the master producer, can weave these scenarios into together. I believe we can also use this to pay off karmic debt that we have to other people.
One testimonial of someone who died and went to heaven, outlines how the person did not want to return to earth, but wanted to stay in heaven. God showed them the future children that they would have if they decided to go back. But if they stayed in heaven, then the existence of the children would never be able to happen. So free will still exists. And the future can be changed.
We think we are smart, because for example we have worked out concepts such as quantum mechanics. But in reality, this is like 1 + 1 in simplicity to the concepts that God knows.
What Matters is The Meaning Of Our Choices Rather than Is There a Why For The Choices Made for Us or Choices Our Internalities Made
One big wall of nothing 😂
God doesn't exist bruv. Stop jumping the gun and doing mental gymnastics to just insert him 😂
It should be easy to see and understand that if God is omniscient then everything has already been done/planned in God's mind.
Omniscient = “all knowledge” God knows ALL possible outcomes…all knowledge
well yes dude your deterimend path is bases on YOUR free will to decide things......its like if youre watching a movie and you can forward to the end and watch the beggining as well as the middle part, it does NOT mean that the viewer is maming decicions for you....
Great videos! Really really good!
Thank you :)
3:58 - There's nothing logically impossible in making a stone that its creator cannot lift. What makes it impossible is the property of omnipotence granted to the subject, so the more sensible conclusion is that omnipotence is impossible.
Yes it is, you're asking him if he can create a rock greater than infinity.
Which is a contradiction as nothing can be greater than infinity.
Therefore asking the infinite God (if you're referring to Christianity) to create a rock he can't lift is logically impossible
And logically impossible statements aren't a thing or task and can't be used too prove or disprove omnipotent.
And another thing an omnipotent being wouldn't even have to lift anything only command.
@@Deathlock61 It is logically impossible only if the creator of the stone is omnipotent, therefore omnipotence is logically impossible.
@@Deathlock61 how is omnipotence logically possible?
conceiving of complicated beings that are omnipotent, omniscient, timeless, etc, complicates things even more, it does not help. ockham's razor. we have the universe in front of us and we leave it and talk about gods.
God is beyond The concept of time and space
Yep. God is also beyond reason and logic. Hence it is unreasonable and illogical.
God is beyond anything because he doesn't exist 😂
I'm a theological determinist. But if we define free will as the ability to do what we want then I think Theological Determinism and free will are compatible. I have the ability to do what I want and at the same time it is God that's gives me my ability and my wants.
So if you commit a horrible sin (such as murdering a baby), it is because God determined for you to have the desire to murder that baby? Seems to be at odds with "Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one." (James 1:13). Or "No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it." (1 Cor. 10:13)
How do you get around this?
@@jakelivingstone5747 Great question! The first thing I would point out is that the two passages you quoted seem to contradict each other. Yaakov(James) says that YHWH never tempts anyone. But Corinthians says that He allows us to be tempted. Now I don't believe that any of the Scriptures can contradict each other. So what can we say to bring these passages into alignment? We could try to distinguish between causing someone to be tempted and allowing someone to be tempted. But I think this fails. If I have the ability to stop someone from being murdered but I choose to allow the person to be murdered anyway I am causing the person to be murdered by not stopping it. But this passage in Corinthians is not the only passage that appears to contradict what James says. John 6:6 says that Yeshua(Jesus) tempted Phillip. The word being translated as "test" is the same Greek word as the word for "tempted" and "tempt" in Yaakov. Someone can avoid the contradiction by denying the Divinity of Yeshua. But I strongly believe in the Divinity of Yeshua. So that is not an option for me. Also Hebrews 11:17 talks about How Avraham was tempted in the binding of Yitsakh(Isaac). Again the word being translated as "tested" is the same word in Greek being translated as "tempted" and "tempt" in Yaakov. Someone might try to avoid the contradiction by saying that YHWH did not tempt Avraham but that Avraham was tempted by his own desire. But this does not take into account that Genesis 22:1 says that "God did tempt Abraham" KJV. So it seems that this also fails. So what can we do to avoid these apparent contradictions? We might try distinguishing between tempting someone while hoping that they fail and tempting someone while hoping that they don't fail. And say that YHWH does the later but not the former. But the problem with this is that YHWH does not tempt people for either of these reasons. YHWH is omniscient and in possession of divine foreknowledge. If He tempts people at all he is not hoping for us to pass or fail because he already knows if we will pass or fail. Before we are tempted. So all that to say that I think that Yaakov is saying that there is a specific type of tempting that YHWH does not cause. But that there must be at least one other type of tempting that YHWH does cause seems obvious given the other passages I've mentioned. But what those types of tempting are I know not. Also me being given a desire to murder people is not me being tempted, it is me being programed. Being tempted comes later. Also being predetermined to do something is logically prior to tempting someone to do something. So even if YHWH does not tempt anyone for any reason. It does not seem to rule out the possibility that He still predetermines our actions.
Romans 9:17"For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.”
18Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.
19¶You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?”
20But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?”
21Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?"
I hope this helps you to see where I'm coming from. I'm not the best at putting my thoughts in writing. Shalom!
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things. - Isiah 45:7
@@redbearwarrior4859 This was very well articulated. It seems you are a compatibilist, however, my question to you would be, can we accurately say God causes us to want something, if God made us so that our wants are uncaused/indeterministic.
@@CMVMic Thanks for the response. Yes I am a compatibalist. I'm not sure that it makes sense to speak of our wants as uncaused. If our wants exist and are yet uncaused it seems that that would mean that our wants are eternal because in order for our wants to exist yet not be eternal then our wants would need to be caused. But how can our wants be eternal but us not be eternal? I think our wants have to be caused by something. But maybe I have misunderstood your question entirely.
There is one error that the theological determinist makes in his argument. When he says God knows what "will" happen, he is PRESUPPOSING that the future is already determined. He is assuming that the truth value of the future is true now. This is actually begging the question. If the future is not ACTUALLY determined then omnicience can't include deterministic knowledge of an indeterministic future. That is a logical contradiction. Omnicience only means that one has full knowledge of what actually is. That means that if the future is truly indeterministic, then true/false values of the future don't actually exist today and that's how God sees the future. Then there is the problem of being "outside" of time. If God is truly "outside of time" then God can't actually have any knowledge of when "now" is, which is an observable fact and eliminates omniscience.
What's more is that if the future is determined then God Himself is deterministic and He can't be blamed or given credit for anything either. God is simply an infinite machine running an endless script that has existed forever. That being said, if God is not deterministic it means that the future is indeterministic and He can't have deterministic knowledge of it. Thus a coherent definition of omnicience would only include deterministic knowledge of future events that are determined (which some are) and indeterministic knowledge of future events that are not determined.
How does this work with omnipotence? Well power is simply the ability to force an outcome. If God is omnipotent He has the power to force any outcome at any time. If God doesn't force EVERY outcome, it doesn't mean he can't; He can choose not to if He has free will. If a country had the most powerful bomb in the world and never actually detonated it (being the most powerful bomb in the world might be a good reason NOT to detonate it), it would still be the most powerful bomb in the world.
Thus, an indeterministic future in the eyes of an omnicient and omnipotent God is "squishy and flexible". It's like a 2000-ton lump of clay sitting in the middle of a group of people to mould it. We are all trying to mould our little piece of it but God's hands are the strongest and He can force any feature He wants. The fact that it's flexible and squishy and manipulated by us is merely this way because that's how God wanted it to be. I cold actually see why an omnipotent God would want to create something that behaves indeterministically, because if you're omnicient, determinism is boring.
The final argument (and most lethal for Christians) is this. Determinism is an extreme view as it asserts that EVERYTHING in the future is determined. That means that if there is a SINGLE counter-example, then the position falls a part. There are actually quite a few examples of this in the Bible (such as God saying He changed His mind Exodus 32:14, or suggesting possibilities for future events John 3:17), so if you're a Christian who believes in the inerrency of scripture, you're in a very tough spot if you're a determinist (I won't comment on other religious affiliations though). Indeterminism only asserts that SOME things in the future are not determined. No amount of examples of deterministic events can prove an indeterminist wrong, making it a much safer position to hold.
If someone is omniscient in the past, assuming Time is linear, then yes the future is determined. To say, otherwise is to argue that God would not know the effects of causes. What justification do you have to argue that the future is indeterministic for an omniscient being?
@@CMVMic Consider the following equation:
3*x = 1
We know that there is a deterministic answer to this equation, x = 1/3. If God didn't know the answer to this equation, then He wouldn't be omnicient. Now let us consider another equation
0*x = 0
The answer to this equation is indeterministic, x can be any real number (or even any imaginary, complex, or dual number). It is ridiculous to say that God is not omniscient if He doesn't have a deterministic solution to this indeterministic problem. This ridiculousness is analogous to saying that if the future is indetermninistic, God is not omnicient if He doesn't have deterministic knowledge of it. It's a contradiction in terms. Therefore, God's deterministic knowledge of the future inhererently hinges on the assumption that the future is deterministic, which is an unwarranted assumption.
But there is more. One of the most solid arguments for the existence of God is the need for the universe to be started by something that is able to act without sufficient cause. If God himself is able to act without sufficient cause, He is by definition indeterministic; there is no way around this. God's past actions are determined, but if He is free to act without sufficient cause, the future is fundamentally different from the past and the present. Now if the future is in the hands of an indeterministic God, the future itself is indeterministic in whatever way God is indeterministic. Also, if God is indeterministic, what is stopping Him from making anything else indeterministic? What if God WANTS us to behave indeterministically? Since He gives us moral responsibility, and there is no rational way to make moral responsibility work in a deterministic framework, God's intent for moral responsibility is a VERY strong argument that indeterministic human behavior was part of His objective.
@@rubencarbonbased I'm surprised you responded so quickly. Please bare with me, I dont want us talking past each other.
Firstly, I believe your example fails for two reasons. (1) not every problem should have a solution, nor do I see why every problem should have one answer. Also, if there is an answer and God does not know it then yes, it can be said that he is not omniscient (2) I believe there is an answer to the equation i.e. x = 0/0, which is said to be undefined/indeterminate, which is 0 as it can not be 1 despite contemporary consensus. This is mainly because nothing can’t be something and 1 represents something. Ergo, “x” logically can not be anything other than 0. To replace x and say for example, 1 = 0/0, is a contradictory axiom i.e. 1 = 0. 0/0 is the same as saying nothing divided by nothing. It isn’t about the nominal identity. This is why a number should never be divided by 0, because you can’t get nothing from something. 1/0 is said to be undefined as well because division is defined in terms of multiplication. a/b = x is defined to mean that b*x = a. There is no x such that 0*x = 1, since 0*x = 0 for all x. Thus 1/0 does not exist, or in other words, it’s meaningless.
While I grasp the analogy, I disagree that it is ridiculous to suggest God is not omniscient if he cannot know the answer to a problem, if an answer exists. For eg. God can still know there is no “one” solution or no solution whatsoever, hence, his knowledge would still be deterministic. God can know what counts as a logical absurdity. Maybe you can elaborate on what you mean by ‘a deterministic solution to this indeterministic problem.’ It doesn’t seem clear. I would also argue that his knowledge would then not qualify as omniscience if he didn’t know the answer to an answerable question. Also, are you implying that God can make our will free from constraint i.e. free from internal and external causes? Wouldn’t this be arguing against the philosophical concept, i.e. ex nihilo nihil fit, which is absurd, not to mention special pleading and seemingly a metaphysical impossibility. To reiterate saying thoughts arise from nowhere, uncaused, is as WLC puts it, worse than magic! It’s like saying our thoughts can pop into being out of nothing, without motivation, without reason. Then why couldn’t anything pop into being out of nothing if it is metaphysically possible. I’m still trying to wrap my head around God making our will free from causes. If he does so and doesn’t know how we will choose, then he doesn’t know the future. Sounds like a limitation on omniscience.
Also, I thought indeterministic referred to events, not beings. Seems you may be equivocating indeterministic with uncaused. If your qualms is with the justification for the PSR, then simply think about it’s negation, not everything has a reason. If you are advocating for indeterminism, I’d like to hear your argument for it. Furthermore, I think it is an unwarranted assumption to say our will is uncaused. I believe an uncaused will goes against our intuitions of nihilio nihil fit.
@@CMVMic I'm not sure you fully grasp the analogy. The point I was trying to make was that if the future is actually indeterminate, then seeing it as indeterminate doesn't negate omnicience. The equation 0*x = 0 is in fact indeterminate. It can be solved by a range of possible values. An indeterminate future also has a range of possible values. Therefore, if the future is actually indeterminate, you can't say it rules out omnicience, becuase then this equation 0*x = 0 would actually rule out omnicience. It is a perfect mathematical analogy via set theory. If one insists that God omnicient, the existence of any indeterminism can't rule it out.
If you don't think this analygy works, the real problem is that you fundamentally can't believe that the future contains indeterminate elements and a set of possibilities (which is common enough). To help with this, I gave you an example showing that God must have acted without sufficient cause in order to create the universe out of nothing. If something can act without sufficient cause, it can produce causal chains from nowhere at any time. Any time you act without sufficient cause, you introduce a new causal chain to the system out of nowhere. That's what acting without sufficient cause means.
Being able to bring new causal chains in existence doesn't go against "Ex nihilo nihil fit", because we are the agents that do this. Just as long as these new causal chains weren't introduced by nothing, but by us, it doesn't violate "Ex nihilo nihil fit". God created matter out of nothing, and I believe He is capable of giving us that ability if He wanted to, but obviously He didn't. Instead, I think He gave use the ability to create causal chains out of nothing by acting without sufficient cause. Since we are the agents that do it, then it doesn't contradict "Ex nihilo nihil fit" just like God creating the universe out of nothing doesn't violate it either. God can create something out of nothing and God is sufficiently powerful to give us that ability to if He wishes. The only point that "Ex nihilo nihil fit" can really make is that without a source of everything, nothing would exist, which is essentially an argument for the necessity of God (being defined in this case as the eternally existing source of everything).
There is no fundamental self-evident philosophy (not even "Ex nihilo nihil fit") that dictates matter must behave with deterministic predictably. All we can say is that we merely observe that matter macroscopically behaves in a predictable manner. At the quantum level, this doesn't seem to hold true at all; it is only the DISTRIBUTIONS of behaviours that are well-defined. And yet, this stochastic behaviour is small enough that it doesn't really cause us issues macroscopically. Macroscopic behaviour can be approximiately deterministic because most systems are large and robust enough to not be sensitive to quantum-level noise. It's only high-order self-dependent (e.g. chaotic) systems like fluid dynamics and weather that have this problem. Nevertheless, these systems are still bounded by energy because energy/matter can't come out of nowhere, it can only behave erratically. Hence, thunderstorms happen outside and Brownian motion happens in your hot cup of tea/coffee, but the universe doesn't blow up. Stochastic systems can work themselves out beautifully and manageably if we take the time to properly understand them; and this stochastic nature literally (by virtue of control theory) makes the universe persistently exciting.
That being said, I'm not sure thoughts come out of nowhere, but if we make a decision to act one way when we COULD have acted another, we deliberately alter the course of the universe and create new causal chains. These causal chains are things we produce with our minds just as God produced the universe from His. If you call this "magic" then God is by definition magical and HAS to be; not to mention the fact that He has every right and ability to give a bit of that "magic" power to us.
@@rubencarbonbased I would argue if the future is actually indeterminate, then it would negate omniscience because it shows that God doesn't know something. He doesn't know what choices we will make. If he does know what choices we will make, then he in essence caused us to act freely by giving us the ability to act free because he knows how we will act freely before he gave us the will to do so. I also disagree that the equation is indeterminate for reasons I gave above. I believe the axioms that set theory are predicated on, are the reasons why this equation presents this dilemma so the problem is the axioms (assumptions) itself. Also, I don't think it follows that God created the universe without a cause, I take Spinoza's view that God's cause would be in its own nature. Why do you think PSR only applies to somethings and not everything? It also doesnt follow that God has to create the universe out of nothing, it could have been creatio ex deo. While I understand you dont subscribe to the PSR, we have no evidence to believe something violates this, even quantum mechanics doesn't violate it. I believe these "new" causal chains that human can create do violate "Ex nihilo nihil fit". Simply showing a correlation doesnt imply causation. I also dont think everything has a source, I think everything exists necessarily. I also think "Ex nihilo nihil fit" is self evident, why do you say otherwise. I also think for a first cause omniscient observer that matter must behave with deterministic predictability. Also, according to your logic, if God can create things out of nothing, energy/matter "can" come out of nowhere. I do not think God can do logical contradictions which is why I believe creating something out of nothing is illogical. How does one even prove the possibility of such a thing? In closing, I never said it was magic, I said it was worse than magic which is actually a bad thing, implying that it goes against logic.
Fore knowing is not deciding for you
God according to abrahamic religions is the creator of everything, which means he created your life and the choices you will make in that life. He knows what you will do because he created that choice, scenario, and situation in the first place. God does not exist, and if he does, he is evil.
Nice video
Which country u belong to "philosophy vibes"?
Thank you.
United Kingdom :)
@@PhilosophyVibe
Please make videos on western philosophers like Kant.
Your way of explanation is amazing.
I really appreciate it.
I am an Indian, I understand ur english through transcriptions.
Can u plz provile transcription pdf of each video in description?
We have covered Kantian Ethics: th-cam.com/video/ZOoJ9Cq3oKM/w-d-xo.html
and Kant's Transcendental Idealism: th-cam.com/video/JZEhrABp2wQ/w-d-xo.html
All our scripts are compiled into Ebooks and paperback books and are available on amazon, links can be found in the description of all our videos.
How baked is the guy in purple?
Well... you do have to be pretty high to start debating God and Free Will :)
@@PhilosophyVibe H U H ??
This video makes a common logical fallacy when it comes to causal determinism and predeterminism. Free will can still exist within the concept of divine foreknowledge in the same way a father knows that his toddler will choose the icecream over Sellerie sticks. The fathers knowledge of his kids’ choice doesn’t undermine the free choice of the child - it just means that the father knows his child good enough to foresee its choice.
The example you gave is not omniscience. The father is just predicting. Trash analogy
Trash analogy. That's not omniscience, that's called predicting something. If god must predict something, that means he is not all powerful and all knowing, it means he is limited - therefore, god is not a deity.
Trash analogy.
God dignifies us with free will, the power to make decisions of our own rather than having God or fate predetermine what we do. Consider what the Bible teaches.
God created mankind in his image. (Genesis 1:26) Unlike animals, which act mainly on instinct, we resemble our Creator in our capacity to display such qualities as love and justice. And like our Creator, we have free will.
To a great extent, we can determine our future. The Bible encourages us to “choose life . . . by listening to [God’s] voice,” that is, by choosing to obey his commands. (Deuteronomy 30:19, 20) This offer would be meaningless, even cruel, if we lacked free will. Instead of forcing us to do what he says, God warmly appeals to us: “O if only you would actually pay attention to my commandments! Then your peace would become just like a river.”-Isaiah 48:18.
Our success or failure is not determined by fate. If we want to succeed at an endeavor, we must work hard. “All that your hand finds to do,” says the Bible, “do with your very power.”(Ecclesiastes 9:10) It also says: “The plans of the diligent one surely make for advantage.”-Proverbs 21:5.
Free will is a precious gift from God, for it lets us love him with our “whole heart”-because we want to.-Matthew 22:37.
Doesn’t God control all things?
The Bible does teach that God is Almighty, that his power is not limited by anyone other than himself. (Job 37:23; Isaiah 40:26) However, he does not use his power to control everything. For example, the Bible says that God was “exercising self-control” toward ancient Babylon, an enemy of his people. (Isaiah 42:14) Similarly, for now, he chooses to tolerate those who misuse their free will to harm others. But God will not do so indefinitely.-Psalm 37:10, 11.
The Bible does not teach predestination. While God is all powerful and capable of seeing all possible things before they occur, we have free will do we not? Is it consistent with a loving God to condemn some to die in sin for no mis action? Why did Jehovah God forbid Adam and Eve from eating of the forbidden fruit if they had no choice but to do so? Regarding Acts 4:27, why should the predestination of one thing mean such for all? God commanded that Jesus must die, yes, but this does not mean that he did the same for all things? www.jw.org/finder?wtlocale=E&docid=2009252&srcid=share
First: use your own mind to think and do not force God into your dead-end philosophical brainfart. Second: Reason within your limit...
This is actually one of the most terrible channels on TH-cam , that is why there is no recommendations.
Knowing what someone will do does not mean you have chosen for them what to do.
Free Will simply means , it's definite you were going to do what you have done , but out of your own choice.
Don't confuse people with knowing and causing , there are 2 different things.
It is for sure a bad channel.
@@runningoutoftime123 thank you.
But listen my brother,, if you today decide to have a child,, definitely you know they will disobey you and do some bad things because it's in the nature of people.
Can I say you predestined the child to disobey you.
Or we can say you knew the child would fail you but you were not obligated not to have a child. So you didn't predestine their action though you knew they would do what they do.
The scriptures are clear , According to God's foreknowledge ,, He predestined people.
This verse explains it all , at the same time making this video a full of the self claimed wise.
@@jarredthorpey9004 Saying you expect a child to misbehave is different from saying that they will misbehave at 10:23 AM on December 3rd, 2024 by shoving their younger brother.
The first is an expectation of the future. The second would be foreknowledge, if it were true.
What if you ended up having a child and they actually never misbehaved? While not expected, it is possible.
these always end right before they get good :-((((
Ah sorry, if we don't cut them off they will go on forever! Thank you for watching :)
get better mics and get some relaxed background music. some classical stuff or something. to fill up the akward silence. this channel is great btw. good stuff. I watch many videos
Thank you for your comment and for your suggestions, really appreciate it. Glad you are enjoying the channel.
Horrible advice!
I watch these at 1.75 x speed. Adding any background noise would totally ruin it.
Don't be afraid of the silence, fella.
This is an awfully underrated channel. I've watched a few videos and they are great. I like how you bring the best arguments from all sides. I can see those guys working behind are really unbiased. Keep up the great work.
Much appreciated, glad you like the content :D
I don't know why nobody has ever thought about this but just the very idea that God created time sort of kinda makes free will impossible. Because remember, all of our actions, choices and thoughts are all part of the past, present and future. And if God created all of time, then he created the past, present and future, and since our choices and everything that we do are part of those 3 timezones, then it was God who chose those actions long before we were born. The reason why God knows the past, present and future is because he created it when he created time
Great job guys, but I would love to see another video on this topic addressing where the "will" comes from. This seems an insurmountable problem for libertarian free will.
Thank you, and great suggestion!
Me: Enjoying the discussions about free will and God
Philosophy Vibe: Well that's all the time we have for today
Me: Uhm wot
The last debate from dude was the best debate of "free will" I heard... BUT it still didn't show that we have Free Willl to make choices outside of Gods way and will.
One could look at it this way, your actions are prior to God's foreknowledge, it means your actions results to his omniscience. If God created time, he has experienced all of our free choices before us and we are under the illusion from our timebound consciousness to think we still haven't done them when under his perspective, he has already experienced them. It might be why God shows emotions on Christian scriptures, if his omniscience looks at time in a linear way then emotions are meaningless.
This free will line of logic makes no actual sense lol. It's like this.
"God knows everything in the past present and future."
Ok.
"Therefore nothing you do matters and you have no will of your own."
There is no connection here lol, this in no way invalidates free will. Like if someone time travels in the past does no one there have free will any.ore cause he knows what the people in the past will do? No its stupid.
Only way this would invalidate free will is if God was actively choosing for you, which he doesn't
@@bonzoluvIt’s crazy to me that you think this is a good rebuttal. Everyone gives this example of someone traveling to the past, but nobody realizes that the example doesn’t work here. Events in the past have already happened and God knows the actions people will take before they have actually happened. Even if you time travel to the past and have foreknowledge in that sense, there is still the possibility that people in the past might act differently than how they did originally. Divine foreknowledge doesn’t allow for such a possibility
@@real_dirty_dan well for God everything has already happened for him too. So it doesn't change. And you can't argue against the point that the logic makes no sense unless he's choosing for you. You're not creating any connection between knowing something and not actually choosing it lol
@@JMRICK_CN95if that’s the case, our actions are still predetermined
So why won't God just come down from wherever he is and clear up all of this confusion? Why is he hiding from us?
I like how the "Westminster Confession of Faith" words it (in chapter 3):
"God from all eternity did by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin; nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.
"Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass, upon all supposed conditions; yet hath He not decreed any thing because He foresaw it as future, as that which would come to pass, upon such conditions."
Wow. This is exactly the discussion I've been having with one of my best friends for many years now. I choose glasses. ;)
Knowing a variety of different outcomes to a situation will mean God is not sure or uncertain, that means He stops being God because as Sproul says, if God looses control of any element whatsoever, He seizes to be God. Good discussion there. 🙌🏾🙌🏾
"if God looses control of any element whatsoever, He seizes to be God" - according to who? It seems the author here is making up his own definitions, and rejecting ideas that don't fit them. Its not a great way to discern truth. As far as I know, the definition of "God" belongs to the most powerful being whom which all existence is contingent upon. What the contingent limitations are of such a being does not redefine him as no longer claiming the title of God. I could just as easily say that a God that could not create a rock so heavy he could not lift, is no longer God, but for some reason the Author here gives ground on that example but not others. I wonder, is God still God if God is capable of suicide, according to the author? What other limitations on the definition does he have?
@@justindavis2711 But what if God is not all powerful, but still is considered God? What if “all powerful” is more of an exaggeration based on how limited humans are? If God is not all powerful, he would still seem all powerful to us by a long shot.
For example. If you compare an ant to a human, and the ant had the ability to understand our power, the ant would look at us as “all powerful” even though we are not based on the limitations the ant has compared to us.
@@justindavis2711think about it like this. If God loses any control then he opens the chance of another being or beings to take control.
@@hudgaming_7022 Yes it should be known what all powerful really means but I think if God created the universe then most probably he should be infinitely powerful but if he infinitely powerful then he should be able to know what lies outside the universe and questions like who created God. So, God is most probably finitely powerful or is most probably its power is limited to maybe 4 Dimensions. For example God can see every event happening at any moment of time but God is told to just observe by some entity more powerful than God because if our God is finitely powerful then where does that God came from so there must be God's God or some entity which created our God which is again finitely powerful but more powerful than our 4 Dimensional God but this infinite series of God's God's God...... will never end. So we wouldn't be able to determine the Real God or the most powerful God or God which has infinite powers can't be determined if it really exists or not. If we say that we only have 1 God which knows everything and he created everything then who created him.
It is conceivable that there could be a being that knows every choice you will freely make. Even an omnipresent being that has a topographical view of events wouldn’t necessarily violate free will. They would just know what free choices every individual made at any point in time.
The problem with free will, as I see it, is when an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, CREATOR god is involved. An omnipotent creator can create reality, and any individual within that reality, anyway they want (the constraints of logically possible things don’t affect my argument).
Being omniscient, the god must know, and choose (via their omnipotence) how they will create any individual, including every choice they make. This makes free will, from a theological standpoint, untenable.
Foreknowledge is irrelevant. Focus on the fact that God has a plan, and humans cannot veer from his plan and therefore we are fully caused by God to think and do everything we do in life. We are therefore just God's toys.
Also one thing that comes to mind is that God is judging our actions - and the judgment could be eternal damnation - while ensuring that we remain in some state of ignorance. If the stake are eternal you would think he'd make sure to give us all the information. That is if he truly cares for his creatures and is not playing some kind of game
I believe we judge ourselves when we get to heaven and have a "life review".
In our Life Review, we get shown all the interactions and spoken words that occurred. We get to "feel" how it affected the other person, both good and bad. There is no judgement from God, but instead the question "what did you learn from that".
Very similar to how we should be teaching/molding our children. If our child, for example, says to someone passing, "you are very fat!" ..... the parent in us speaks to the child and says "how do you think that person is feeling now?"
If we are going to regard God as the "father", as well as a God of "love", then we should expect him to have parenting skills that reflect that love..
@@53531640 Retard analogy.
If the block universe is true and God created it all, then that means he created all moments and events in time at the moment of creation. This would completely delete any chance of personal agency.
@Natturner Thank you :)
Nice way to look at it! What if the universe is not a block universe?
He would still know exactly how his creation would react and how their life would be.
If humans have free will, and so this god does not know or control these choices, then there is no possibility of prophesy under this model.
Wow! I would love to have a one on one conversation with the creators of this video.
Well... if you're ever in the UK :)
If God made the rules of the universe he could have made it so we could have square circles. God made the logic.
So does that mean he could be subjected to his own rules?
What if we are actually sim or highly advanced cgi but atom instead of pixels characters that God created? Talking to God would be like breaking the fourth wall and angels are hologram project by physical beings outside of the sim.
Thank you so much for the lovely video! Have been juggling this problem for years. So nice to hear arguments on either side, it was some great brain food
Glad you enjoyed it. Thank you for watching.
This was a great video but kinda frustrating because I believe in an omniscient God while affirming free will. I am the first person to concede that if God knows the future, then it must work out one way, but that doesn't get rid of free will. Sure, we are not free to fool God's omniscience, but the very reason God knows what will happen is because we are the ones making the choices that He knows about. God's knowledge is not causative. Just because He knows our choices, this doesn't mean He is determining them. We are the ones determining them, and He just knows them infallibly. God's knowledge is like an infallible weather barometer. The barometer predicts what the weather will be like in the future, but the barometer doesn't *cause* the weather to be as it is. The weather just is what it is, and the barometer predicts it in advance. We are free to make real choices and whatever we do, we are always able to do otherwise. We can always pick between the options available to us, but we are just not free to fool God's knowledge of our choices, just as the weather isn't free to fool the barometer. Hope that clears things up!
@@astroedsastrophotographych4562 that's super helpful. You basically said "I cant refute anything you just said, but somethin ain't right, so keep on tryin." If you want to give a serious reply and contend with anything I said, I'd be happy to have a conversation :)
@@astroedsastrophotographych4562 wow...your argument was exactly what I refuted. I used to be in the exact same boat years ago. I thought the exact same thing that you do now. So thanks for the enlightening, but no thanks. You are conflating certainty with necessity. I'm appalled at how smug people can be because they think they are so smart. Just because God knows something, doesnt mean its determined. It just means He knows it ahead of time, not that He caused it to happen. As I said above, knowledge is not causal. God knows what we do because we do it. I even granted that if God knows everything then everything will work out exactly in the way He knows it will, but that's only the case because we choose to do the things we do, and God just knows what we end up choosing. You are just showing your ignorance here, because you take everything these guys say as truth. How about studying the Christian philosophers on this topic before you go and make yourself look quite stupid. Let's say that I recorded a football game and I was going to watch it when I got home, but my friend texted me the score before I watched it. Well, now I know what's going to happen, and the football game must work out exactly the same way that my friend told me it would, but if I decided to watch it anyways, does it mean that since I know what's going to happen, that I am determining what happens? Obviously not. Just because something is certainly known, doesn't mean that its necessary. If God knew X, then He knew X because I chose X, and if I were to choose Y instead, He would have known that instead. Our choices inform His knowledge. His knowledge doesnt determine our choices. Hopefully this will be an enlightening piece of information for you, and if you dont get anything else from this conversation, please get this: stop being presumptuous and assuming you know it all, especially when you know much less than many people out there. To them, you are the poor little guy who is confused. Good day and God bless!
@@astroedsastrophotographych4562 now read exactly what you wrote me apply it to your last comment, and have a nice day! God bless, my friend!
Phillip Jackson I think you cleared it up quite nicely, bro ;)
If we always have to pick between options then there's no free will. We are just reacting and responding to everything as we live. We are always being stimulated to take an action.
God is outside of time (the Christian God) God experiencies all creation all at once, if him knowing the "future" does not mean he is making the desitions.
Remember the quote "You are what you believe in". If you believe in God's will, you will follow that path. If you believe in freewill, you will take that path. Those who believe in God's will, they allow their life to be ruled by a powerful force which they believe in. Those who believe in free will eventually make things happen as they want it to be. Whether it is right or wrong decision, that is secondary.
But then believing in free will is also determined.
What I love about this line of reasoning is that not only humans don’t have free will but neither can god.
Plot twist! Your statement adds another dimension I hadn't considered. 👏
Yeah, it basically shatters the concept of God. God does not exist.
How on earth did you come to that conclusion? God can’t not have free will. You cant have an infinite regress of determined events. There has to be an uncaused cause.
@@vinuzo9548it’s the same argument of divine foresight applied to god.
Does god know everything you will do?
Yes.
Can you do anything other than what good knows you will do?
No.
Then you lack the ability to make choices and do not have free will only the illusion of it, as you cannot contradict god’s foreknowledge.
Now does god know everything that god is going to do?
Yes.
Can he do anything other than what he already knows he will do?
No.
If god cannot do anything other than what he already knows he will do then he has no agency to make changes and has no free will.
@@vinuzo9548 This has nothing to do with a regress.
I can't stand listening to some of the so called reasoning discussions. Humans may not be able to understand God's mind. At some point we just have to trust God. But if you decide to go to hell because you can't trust God. I guess God is alright for taking the blame for your lack of trust. By saying, "He had no chose in the matter, I predestine him to go to hell!" God loved him to the bitter end of his bitter life, not even willing to condemn him for his choice! God can't rescue some people because He won't take their free will away, and they freely insist on refusing God's rescue.
Wow you didn’t refute a single point. Just face it man if gods omniscient then you don’t have free will. If I create a program k owing exactly what it will do that program doesn’t have free will.
Here is my 2 cents. If god (abrahamic version) can know your outcome (for before you were born I knew you) he (sex of a deity is superfluous) could have ran a simulation and then created only those who he is pleased with to worship him for eternity. No need for restarts (Adams fall,Noah's flood, judgement day) or human sacrifices (only blood of Jesus saves) or eternal torture (platos eternal soul vs destruction of the soul) of those he knew would never believe in this unbelievable being.
Pretty good, but you left out one of the more popular views; that God has middle knowledge (also known as molinism). Expained briefly it is something like this:
Someone who maintains God's middle knowledge believes that God has true knowledge not only of what WILL happen (the actual), but also of what WOULD happen under others circumstances. Thus it involves true knowledge of conditional sentences of subjunctive form, i.e.:
IF -> THEN statements, such as; If I was rich then I WOULD have bought a Mercedes.
This matches knowledge of possible worlds, as Alvin Plantinga uses the term, but includes that God knows what people voluntarily WILL and WOULD choose in all possible worlds (under all possible circumstances). So God doesn't just know possibilities (as you mention). That's an "open theist"-standpoint, but under molinism God also knows what free choice agents WOULD make in the different circumstances they find themselves in.
WL Craig elaborates on how God knows this here: www.reasonablefaith.org/writings/question-answer/how-does-god-foreknow-free-choices
Here's an article about some of the discussion regarding these two positions (open theism vs molinism):
www.reasonablefaith.org/writings/question-answer/gregory-boyds-neo-molinism
I personally believe it is impossible for anything other than determinism to exist. It's confusing because all beings co-create creation, but all as assigned aspects of God, thus your will is still only an extension of God’s will.
Another huge thing you guys skipped over was the fact the God specifically made each and every entity in the universe with a specific nature. Each entity may only act within the confines of its god-given nature.
As a Christian, heres one reason why i don't believe in Libertarian free will
1. I don't believe Libertarian free will works. And here's why. The third, law of logic is the law of excluded middle, It means that a statement is either true or false. Think of it as claiming that there is no middle ground between being true and being false. Every statement has to be one or the other.
Now consider this statement.
Was it true when Zechariah wrote Zechariah 9:9 that in the future Yeshua/Jesus would fulfill this prophecy?
You can't say it's neither true or false, because that goes directly against the law of excluded middle.
On Libertarian free will you can't say it's a true statement, because if Yeshua/Jesus could have done otherwise then the statement above wasn't necessarily true when Zechariah wrote it.
So you are forced to say it's a false statement, but if you say it's a false statement, you would have to be willing to say that prophecies are not true statements of the future, in which case all the future prophecies like Revelations are not necessarily going to happen. And I am not willing to accept that.
Calvinism reformed theology makes God responsible for evil and causes evil. All have free will to accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior.
Of course God has foreknowledge. He has perfect knowledge. But an option not mentioned in the video is that God CHOOSES NOT to intervene in our decisions even though he knows the results of our decisions. Therefore we maintain free will. God doesn't want us to sin, for example, but we do it anyway. Let's say I'm hovering in a helicopter and I see an old lady slowly crossing the road around from a blind corner and I see a car speeding up to that blind corner. I know the car is going to hit the old lady if it continued it's trajectory and it does. My foreknowledge had no bearing on the outcome.
Your analogy is wrong because you’re watching the event in the time that it’s happening from a view that allows you to predict the outcome.
God knows my future. In order for the future to be known, it has to be determined. If my future is determined, there’s no deviation or “choice” I can make to change what is known. There cannot be free will
You said God chooses not to intervene with our decisions but you’re missing the fact that it’s not truly a decision that any of us are making. He knows the “decisions” I will make before I am even born. I can’t make a decision before I am born. I am just following a predetermined life path that I did not choose
Not sure what god you guys are referring to. I follow the God of the Christian bible and Torah. He plainly states his purpose for giving us free will; in order that we may come to willingly love and follow him.
First, we start with the fact that God knows all, all moments past, present, and future are known by him. From the act of him knowing exactly how everything begin and will end means that there must be a continuous flow of events in the future for him to be aware of. We'll borrow from Loki and call it the Sacred Timeline. At this point, God is irrelevant to the argument, because what we're really talking about is this Sacred Timeline that God knows about. Now you can bring in the idea of determinism, which is that free will cannot exist in this Sacred Timeline. You can see our choices are inevitable, that our actions were determined by the Sacred Timeline. The word determine here, does not mean someone was actually guiding you to make your choices, but instead the idea that your choices are formed purely by your circumstances. In other words, take your past experiences, which form your current mindset, and combine that with the environment currently present, and you will always make the same choice, understanding the environment and past was set in place exactly as in the Sacred Timeline. That's the argument.
Now, when you make the choice on which dish you are going to have for lunch, you are still technically making a choice, in the same way a cog, pushed by the rotating cog to his left, makes the choice to turn. But the word "choice" takes on a different meaning. As though, even though you feel you made a choice, and it is also clearly a choice to any non-omniscient observer, it was actually the choice you were always going to make, and so to an omniscient being with knowledge of the Sacred Timeline looking down, no choice, at least in the way we like to think a choice is, was actually made. Kind of like choices are well crafted illusions that only an omniscient mind can see through. Again, your "choice" would be no different than the "choices" that individual atoms make. You could "choose something else" in the same sense that an atom could "choose" to go left instead of right. But it didn't "choose" to go left. It's circumstances, combined with how the atom behaves, would not "allow" it to, in other words the Sacred Timeline would not "allow" it to. And you would be no different from the individual atom. This would hold even if you had a spirit or soul. It would limit the soul to still make the same choice in the same circumstances.
@@ally4131 Great comment
Did God Create How Each Will Makes Its Own Decision Including For God's Will Why Then Not Study Teleology
I don't think if God is all knowing, then it necessarily restricts our free will. Consider this example, a teacher in the class can predict which student will fail in the exam, considering his character. That doesn't mean that the student don't have the free will to do well in exam, since the teacher knows about his student, he can predict about his future. But by doing this he is not limiting his free will. If I'm wrong someone correct me please.
Predicting something and knowing something are completely two different things. The problem with your analogy is that it is a false analogy. It is a false because it ignores one of the crucial attribute of God that is omniscient. Your example considers God and the teacher to be analogous to each. The problem is that God and the teacher are not analogous because God is omniscient while the teacher is not. If God is omniscient then he knows the future accurately. If god knows the future accurately then that future is necessary which means that it has to happen and it cannot happen otherwise. If it doesn’t happen or it happens otherwise then god cannot be omniscient. On the other hand the teacher is not omniscient. Therefore the teacher does not have accurate knowledge of the future. Sure he can make predictions about the future based on the past that he has observed. But that does not necessarily make him knowledgeable or correct. Because his predictions could turn out to be wrong. Ultimately God has infailable knowledge of the future while the teacher does not have infailable knowledge of the future. Since God has infailable knowledge of the future, what he knows of the future has to happen. Thus Gods infailable knowledge of the future eliminates our freewill because we cannot act outside of God's knowledge. If we could do that then he would not be omniscient.
If the teacher made the test knowing with 110% accuracy who gets what problem right and wrong then the score each student gets was predetermined before they even took the test. If I get a 36/40 and she designed the test knowing that I get a 36/40 then my 90% was predetermined. Would it have been possible for me to not get a 90? Only if she didn’t know with 110% accuracy which then calls her knowledge into question.
Trash Analogy.
We have free will and simultaneously an omniscient being knows what we will choose to do in future. God's omniscient nature doesn't take away from our free will in my pov?
Fiona Bond where is the self that either has or doesn't have free will
I knew that my father would go to drink coffee on Friday. Does that mean I forced him to drink coffee? This argument against free will is already rebutted plenty of times.
No, but if on Monday you say that you know your father will drink coffee Friday, and when Friday comes he drinks tea, then you didn't KNOW. If he drinks tea, you would be wrong, and not all knowing. The Bible claims that God is all knowing, and therefore he has known that your father will drink coffee on Friday since the beginning of time. So when Friday roles around, your father must drink coffee, bc if he drinks tea, God would be wrong and wouldn't know everything, and therefore wouldn't be God as the Bible paints him. So if you ask God Monday if your father will drink coffee or tea, and he says coffee, then your father must drink coffee or God didn't actually know and isn't God. God knowing the future locks it in place.
Didn’t Einstein say the same thing as your last example in his block universe theory.
How is only choosing what you want,free will ?
This is irrational and illogical.
How
The answer at 5:30 is actually the correct one. And it fits perfectly because it contains multiple levels of infinite. God can know all the infinite potential choices we could make, and know how he would respond in all of them, which means he knows everything in existence and everything in the future. The thing he would not know is what does not exist yet, which is not a logical contradiction. God can know "all" - but "all" is continuously expanding. If "all" did not expand, God would be a static being incapable of change. Furthermore, he would not be able to have any real relationship with is if he had absoloute foreknowledge of our choices. It would be like playing with dolls. The only issue the author of this video has is one of definition. He defines "all knowing" to mean "absoloute knowledge of free will". So the argument he makes is a straw man from the get-go.
I see your point, but when you talk about “all” is continuously expanding he should be able to see all the expansion considering he is out of time.
Gods outside of space and time he could easily see into the future. If he isn’t able to know what is in the future the he isn’t omniscient.
Also omniscience is knowing everything including the future.
@@jesushad12gayfriendwhoallb50 Omniscience just means "all knowing".
Your definition of "all" just seems to be different to mine.
You can't simply use a custom definition as an argument.
Your idea of the future seems to be static and unchanging, which is not the same as mine.
I believe there are many possible futures, and God knows all of them - and what he would do in each of them to bring his will into being.
When we make a choice, we bring a possible future into existence, and God instantaniously knows which of the infinite futures we chose.
If your understanding of omniscience is to know exactly what each of us would choose before we were even created, then you have a much larger problem to deal with - the problem of free will. Because such a definition of 'omniscience' excludes all free will from being possible.
As a Christian, free will is objectively biblical. There are countless scriptures pertaining to it. The definition of omniscience that I subscribe to is not contradicted by any biblical scripture, but your definition of omniscience is.
@@jesushad12gayfriendwhoallb50 Your idea about space and time and the future is nothing but an assumption. You seem to believe that the future already exists from the perspective of someone outside of time and space. But there is no evidence of this. And if it doesn't yet exist, then the future is no longer encompassed within the definition of omniscience. Only possibile futures would be encompassed by omniscience.
I love you guys,does that mean I have cartoonian free will
God knowing the future does not determine the action of the individual who himself has caused the outcome out of his own free will. Therefore an omniscient God can coexist with free will.
The video has started with that argument. The answer is that God knows what you choose before you get to choose, so it wasn't you who was choosing.
You didn't present an argument - just a statement.
Compatibilism?
Yes it does
Why do you think God knows the future. It could be that the sub atomic world is unpredictable and God is as surprised as us as to how the world will evolve. He will not interfere in human affairs or the evolution of the. Natural world. Still what an incredible God.
Then he is not God. He is not all knowing, all powerful, or all capable in that matter. If he doesn't know, why call him god? LOL 😂
I believe that the principle of causation doesn't limit to one cause and one effect. It can be one cause and multiple effects. So, God being omniscient, he knows all the effects - i.e. all different outcome of a cause aka future. That would explain free will to some extent when there are more than one cause producing more than one effect to let us choose another cause which will later produce more than one effect?
But who created the parameters for the effects that your actions have?
The idea of God made Billy to steal is not a good one because God is not the author of sin. Please use a better example. I understand where you come from but then you are making God = Satan
Thats precisely the point though. If God did create Billy with complete foreknowledge of what he would do, then he IS the author of Billy's sin. So that specific version of foreknowledge cannot be correct if God is not the author of sin.
Would like to hear your point of view of whether a prayer and the law of attraction could be the same thing but different practice. Any who great work guys. 👍
Considering neither work……
The argument that god is in all space and time at once it still doesn't solve the issue. He should be able to communicate information from his 'future' self to his 'past' self.
And if he does, then he knows the future beforehand, regardless if for him time is linear of not. If he doesn't, he isn't omniscient/omnipotent.
I love this video so much! ❤ I keep coming back and back to it
Same
Free will is one of the most stupid illusions.
Brilliant video, thank you
You're welcome, thanks for watching.
it makes sense too blame the devil on this one.
... and free will is an illusion ...
Knowledge and causation are apart. Knowing something before it happens is not the same as causing it to happen.
So if I give my 7 year old a loaded gun and he kills himself or someone else am I at fault? Yes or No?
If I create a code does the code have free will
This is something that people can't comprehend.
Yes, God sees the past, present, and future as one, but that doesn't mean our lives are determined. We still have free will even if God knows what choices we will make. God knows what you will freely choose. Because again, he knows, but he does not causes us to choose. Just like if someone you know came from the future, they will know all of your future choices, but you'll still freely make those choices.
First, we start with the fact that God knows all, all moments past, present, and future are known by him. From the act of him knowing exactly how everything begin and will end means that there must be a continuous flow of events in the future for him to be aware of. We'll borrow from Loki and call it the Sacred Timeline. At this point, God is irrelevant to the argument, because what we're really talking about is this Sacred Timeline that God knows about. Now you can bring in the idea of determinism, which is that free will cannot exist in this Sacred Timeline. You can see our choices are inevitable, that our actions were determined by the Sacred Timeline. The word determine here, does not mean someone was actually guiding you to make your choices, but instead the idea that your choices are formed purely by your circumstances. In other words, take your past experiences, which form your current mindset, and combine that with the environment currently present, and you will always make the same choice, understanding the environment and past was set in place exactly as in the Sacred Timeline. That's the argument.
Now, when you make the choice on which dish you are going to have for lunch, you are still technically making a choice, in the same way a cog, pushed by the rotating cog to his left, makes the choice to turn. But the word "choice" takes on a different meaning. As though, even though you feel you made a choice, and it is also clearly a choice to any non-omniscient observer, it was actually the choice you were always going to make, and so to an omniscient being with knowledge of the Sacred Timeline looking down, no choice, at least in the way we like to think a choice is, was actually made. Kind of like choices are well crafted illusions that only an omniscient mind can see through. Again, your "choice" would be no different than the "choices" that individual atoms make. You could "choose something else" in the same sense that an atom could "choose" to go left instead of right. But it didn't "choose" to go left. It's circumstances, combined with how the atom behaves, would not "allow" it to, in other words the Sacred Timeline would not "allow" it to. And you would be no different from the individual atom. This would hold even if you had a spirit or soul. It would limit the soul to still make the same choice in the same circumstances.
Think of it like this, You can create a video game but you can't predict or be 100% certain with the outcome will be.
Then you aren’t omniscient
If you can't predict or be 100% with the outcome, then you are not a God or omniscient. You are limited. Therefore, god doesn't exist. End of discussion. LOL 😂
Just because god sees the future it doesn't mean he made us do anything
If i went into the future saw you kill yr dog and returned to present. Did i make you kill yr dog?
Same way hod sees all doesnt mean he makes us do things
If I made you? Then yes, I absolutely did make you to kill your dog in your future. I want you to think you have free will because I’m inherently evil and not human.
@@ravenwda007 well thats you.
Gods knowledge doesnt cause anything , God knowing the future does not determine it anymore than a human knowing the past perfectly meant humans determined the past
Well, if it doesn't mean God caused it then at least something else caused it. But then we also have to ask the question "who created what caused your action"? So then it goes back to God, for God created all things!
@@andrewagyeman3338 I think the argument here is that human's will/choice is uncaused/indeterministic. Free in the sense that it is free from constraint, in the same way that God's will is uncaused. I personally think this goes against ex nihilo nihil fit, but then proponents would say that God can do the logically impossible
@@CMVMic I contend there is no freewill
Umm yeah it does he literally created everything lmao.
This is your mind on atheism ! any questions ??
ANDREW SAID > I contend there is no freewill
granconjunct> Yeah you were determined to be a determinist , which is why no one shouuld take any word you say seriously
If you watch a football game that you recorded. Did the players have the freedom to do what they did during the game? Of course they did. God only sees what we do after he sees us do it and then he does things to help us based on those things.
Shitty analogy. Also using that logic as long as humans god can’t be omniscient. Also don’t use that timeless bullshit since we are bound by time so god would still have to k so what we are going to do.
If God is, chance is not.
If chance is, God is not.
Since God is, chance is not.
Yet the Bible says in Eccl. 9 v.11, "Time and chance happen to all." What are the chances?
This is based on a poor foundation. It assumes that one human concept of god being g omnipotent and omniscient. God may or may not be all powerful and all knowing. Let’s assume god made the decisions to give us free will because he like the experience. He may be able to see and intervene but chooses not to.
I enjoyed this video. However, the whole premise behind all these arguments is that humans exist as a seperate self. I see ourselves and God as one--Kind of like how a tree has a trunk as well as branches. Using that analogy we could say that God represents the trunk and humans represent the branches. Just like I wouldn't argue that the growth of the branches function independently from the trunk of the tree, I wouldn't argue that the choices humans make are totally independent of God's will. So if we are using this tree analogy then we can say that humans do have a form of freewill, but our freewill is actually a result and/or a function of God's will. We're just the pieces of God that are unconscious of the fact that we're a part of God. I think this is why our freewill seems to differ from that of a loving God sometimes. For example, a "human" (aka one of the branches or pieces of God) may cold-bloodedly murder someone (which is actually another piece of themselves) due to being unconscious of the nature of what he or she really is, but the trunk (i.e. what we call God) still uses his freewill to create some kind of good that occurs despite the senseless murder.
How can God be unconscious/conscious of the fact he is part of himself (is God)? If a human was like a tree branch (as your metaphor suggest) it would know its roots/or what it is a part of.
I found this channel watching your video, and thank you for making it.
Most people ive seen have a very infantile view of free will and they act like its the answer to everything. Theyve never stopped to consider how much that is outside their control has shapped who they are. How you were raised, the culture you were raised in, genetic factors or mental illness. According to some of these people God created for no other reason then to create free will so then free creatures could love him. Good luck getting that from the bible. Not only does the bible not affirm free will but it says no one can come to God unless they're drawn.
But just because somebody is entire destiny is known it's not necessarily mean that they like free will it just means that their entire future is known before the events occur think of somebody from the future looking backwards at the past it's because they passed events occurred does not necessarily mean that it robs the person who made such actions did not have free will of choice in regards to which actions that they made
Omniscience: all outcomes of Free Will
It’s like you didn’t watch the video
If by "free will" we mean the ability to do other than what one has already done, the answer is "no", we do not have free will per theological determinism. Look at it this way: Most beleive God has a divine plan, for example God sent Jesus to Earth to die on the cross to wash humanities original sin. What if Pontius Pilate used his free will and decided not to sentence Jesus? If there is a divine plan, we not only don't have free will, we don't even have a simple will, we're simply robots acting out God's script.
Wow. This was a great comment!!!
I am so glad to hear that a debate I had in my head is something that other people think about. I agree with the idea that if he exists he knows all possible outcomes. And that he exists outside of time. However I don't believe our free will is entirely free either, I think it has to do with probabilities. I think our more animal instincts are hard wired and with our minds we can learn to temper them to a certain degree. For example if you are hungry it is very likely you will choose to eat. Although of course you can choose not to, for a time, or as a hunger strike. Furthermore we have an evolutionary drive to seek out calories, and so in modern society eating too many calories is quite easy. Resisting the urge to over eat comes down to a choice, taken over the course of months and years. But somewhere in the mind a choice is made. There are other examples of this kind of thing I think, based on other human instincts. I think our free will comes down to a kind of heavenly roll of the dice made by God, where he knows all the outcomes.
time doesnt affect GOD but how much time it took him to create the universe/
The guys voice on the left is too muted. Can hardly hear him.
If we have free will that means we decide our own fates and in making a different choice it carries weight into to future and changes it aka a fate breaker
I feel like it’s more like a film.
God sees the finished film. We are free to do whatever we like, but God knows exactly how it ends. Whatever choices we make are set in stone and cannot be undone. God sees the finished product. It doesn’t mean we aren’t free to make our own choices; the choices are ours to make, and he simply knows we would make that choice
God doesn't learn after we do.
Why does divine foreknowledge have to equate with causation? Just because you know how something will happen does not mean you caused it to happen!
Because he's the creator
@@logancutora9553 yeah merely stating that He is the creator does not answer the question.... Either he preordains whatever comes to pass or he allows for free will and works through free will
@@mannycano4599 because first of all he was creator that he created mankind,if he has a foreknowledge of what gonna happen that the individual would become evil like committing murder or rape or become evil as a person do,this will raises questions about his intention on to us or his notice and if he was gonna see the final result of the individual,this is somewhat lead to determinism.
@@logancutora9553 so you're telling me that because God knows what type of food you're going to eat for breakfast tomorrow that God is causing you to choose? I have no problem with the fact that God knows exactly what you are going to eat tomorrow. However once again God's not grabbing the box of cereal off the shelf for you! You can extrapolate that out to one who commits murder or rape.... I think the bigger mystery is why does God not always intervene when something heinous happens?
@@mannycano4599 that's why it only raises the questions of his motive or intention to us,if he has a foreknowledge that he'll know what evil of a person or individual would become,while not intervening or just being observer.
Classical example of the modal fallacy in action. For a good explanation of how the modal fallacy ignores contingency within the discussion of foreknowledge read the Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy article on free will.
No it isn’t
This is the second time the purple guy have the same thinking as mine. In Islam, Allah (or as anybody said as God) have the ability as the purple guy just descripted. Human have its own choice wether to choose certain part of life. What is determined (or fated) by Allah is that the time of a person's death.
Our life is not entirely determined because if it so then why the heck did Allah/God creates Heaven, Hell, and Afterlife?
Because Islam and all abrahamic religions are wrong. In the Quran it is written that god knows everything and he chooses who will be feed to the fires and who he made blind. Since god exists in the future he must have seen who is burning and who is in paradise even if there are many dimensions since gods sees the end of all dimensions. The only way out is that god restricted himself by giving humans free will but than he wouldn't be all powerful.🎉
Why assume that [ t+1 > t > t-1 ] is universal?
There seems to be some wrong deductions. "God can see the future' is not accurately made as a statement. I can say for example that there is a man who can see the future. If that man tells me about what will happen to me in the future and that he can change it but will opt not to tamper with my destination, then it is deterministic. However, God is outside space of time. Imagine yourself looking at a picture that shows you the growth and demise of a character. At any look at the picture, you can see the past, the present and the future. That ability is logical and cannot be taken as if I was the one responsible for what that man did or what he will do in the future. It is wrong to say simply that "God sees the future" as if God is in the present time. He is outside time and space already and is not and cannot be confined to the natural law that He created.
You are not considering the fact that time and place are not relevant except for humans. For God, both time and space are His design.
What a great discussion. Keep it up.
Thank you very much!
I believe you guys have misunderstood God To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. The past, future and present are all before God as one. However that does not take away are free will Maybe an example will help if my friend is sitting in a chair right beside me I can know that he at this present moment sitting in the chair however I am not taking away his freewill by knowing he is in the chair the same applies to God he sees all moments of time in their immediacy however still gives us free will
They already cover this idea from 7:15 onwards.
What you think is free will may not be free will. It just seems like it.
This channel is great having such good philosophy debates and discussions👍
Thank you :)
Me: Oh damn this is getting interesting
Philosophy Vibe: Well that's all the time we have for now
:(