Why Demons Probably Exist w/ Dr. Shandon Guthrie
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 ต.ค. 2020
- In this livestream, I talk with Dr. Shandon Guthrie about his rigorous philosophical defense of the reality of Christian demonology--in other words, Dr. Guthrie has arguments that the Christian depiction of Satan and his demons is real.
Dr. Shandon's book "Gods of this World: A Philosophical Discussion and Defense of Christian Demonology": amzn.to/2Xq2QTt
Shandon L. Guthrie holds a Ph.D in philosophy from Manchester Metropolitan University and is a visiting lecturer of philosophy at the University of Nevada, Las Vegas. Guthrie lectures and speaks around the country at venues including colleges, universities, and churches. He has also been a guest on a number of local and national radio shows and podcasts on a variety of topics involving philosophy and apologetics. He and his wife Michelle both live in Las Vegas, Nevada, with their three children.
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#Demons #Demonology #Christianity
"The greatest trick the devil ever pulled is convincing people he didn't exist" not sure who first said that, but I like that quote.
It's from The Usual Suspects.
See my Comment - probably CS Lewis!!
An idiot. Thats who.
An idiot who gaslights reality itself came up with that. Lol.
The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing people a good god exists is a more interesting concept, imo. Think about our current state of affairs. What about it couldn't be true, if an evil deity exists?
It was a pope lol
Usual suspects lolololol
My jaw dropped - and I can see a few more commentators felt the same - at the beyond cringeworthy rudeness of the interviewer's words after asking his guest the first question. It absolutely gave the immediate impression that nothing Dr Guthrie had said was even vaguely relevant or interesting - to talk about your channels set background?? What were you thinking? Please never make this mistake again. Did you notice your phd guest raise his eyebrows. I can guarantee you that with the majority of guests that will irritate them so much that the remainder of the interview will be compromised. You may get the odd person declining to continue. You'd hope not but it's not worth risking when talking about such a specialist subject - you want the views of as many key players in this field as possible. I'm feeling so embarrassed for you and him that I'm having to go away and possibly watch the rest of the interview later. My major was in TV production and I worked in PR for many years too. Big eeeek!
Cameron, after THAT introduction from him, your follow up is about your damn bookshelf?! WTH
Lmao
I know. It feels like an annoying unskippable ad.
“Personal incredulity is not an argument.” Fantastic
Hey guys, I have a situation for you, that happened to me, and my mom. My mom emailed me this story about "black eyed kids" which supposedly were children who knocked on the doors of people's houses in the middle of the night, asking to come in, and acting strange. The weird part about it is that people realize that these kids has completely black eyes. The whole eye-ball, black. Anyhow, I was reading this in my apartment at around 2:45am in the morning, and I was thinking to myself, how the eyes are the windows to the soul. I was visualizing and feeling what it actually means if your eyes are really black like that, and what it says about you as a being. Just at that moment I heard creaking in my hallway as if someone was there. I jumped up, inspected, and nothing. So I went back to reading and contemplating, just then I heard again strange noises, like creaking, but unnatural, like deliberate. I checked around the apartment, nothing. So I kept reading again, and then boom, a loud thud coming from the kitchen. Now I was startled, thinking that there was someone in my apartment. I grabbed my AR15 and cautiously went to the kitchen. There was a lemon on the kitchen floor. It was right in the middle of the floor, in the middle of the linoleum square tile... right in the middle. It came out of a fruit bowl up on a table that had some lemons in it, but it wasn't full at all. All the way around the bowl, even with that lemon in it, there was about 2 inches of bowl... so the think had to have jumped out. So I stopped reading about the black eyed children. My mom had a similar experience, except her disturbance took place in her closet, ending up with a bunch of things falling down in the closet. And no, we didn't have cats or any pets at that time, we were the only ones in our respective houses..
Awe heck naw
I used to believe in demons. Currently I am unsure. The past couple years I have been watching Christian vs atheist debates. I used to go to church a lot as a child. but as I grew into an adult I fell out of it. But in 2015 I was diagnosed with schizophrenia and was hearing voices from both God and Satan. So I started believing again and read the whole Bible front to back. After reading it I started having negative thoughts about God and a lot of unanswered questions. I have been praying lately though. And hopefully if God is real he will answer me and show me the way.
You should read Neil
T Anderson’s book Bondage Breaker
That was a great conversation! I haven’t heard a philosophical approach to the existence of demons. It would be great to hear a bit more From Dr. Guthrie about how this view of demons and what they can/can’t do impacts our view of “spiritual warfare”. It’s a practical but controversial topic I think many Christians would like solid discussion on.
I had an experience where I was by conventional definitions, delusional, manic (I could go 3-4 days without sleeping or feeling the least bit tired), I was paranoid. (sometimes for good reason). I had thoughts that felt like telepathic conversations , never verbal, never hearing things or seeing things. I felt I could have revelative thoughts about the spiritual world, I was convinced most people were reincarnated fallen angels and that once we were awoken to that we could use everyday objects to war with in a magical fashion, like anything, food from a gas station, the words you choose to speak, the way you place things down.. I believed some people could channel through people and animals, though I couldn't. and that some people could hear thoughts, though I couldn't. I was convinced my wife cheated on me. (she didn't) I had several occasions where I felt other people were on the same plane of realization I was in. Oddly, women would hit on me, it unusual ways too. Some people would speak using specific words because those words have "uses" backwards. A few times people I didn't know became upset at my presence. (Like they almost began to cry) On 4 occasions, I had the sensation of absorbing energy/rain/euphoria It felt like something coming from one place or person into me and it was actually very pleasurable and the only thing I could think that could cause it was the emotion of betrayal or music that I liked.
Later on, I started feeling the sensation of being touched in my private area and this would happen for hours. Shortly after this I kind of stood back from everything and asked myself, "this isn't kosher is it God?" And this whole time I thought I was just finding a deeper version of my faith.. I called the divorce attorney, said I didn't need them anymore, I prayed to be unplugged from whatever I was in.. and everything stopped.
Daniel 11:35 "And some of those of understanding shall fall, to refine them, purify them and make them white, until the time of the end; because it is still for the appointed time."
I believe in demons, because I heard one once. I've also been saved by angels at least three times, and I've seen them twice.
And What do they look like?
@QQminusS WHAT DID THEY LOOK LIKE??? PLEASE DESCRIBE!!! COLOR, SHAPE, ETC
@QQminusS yes, Please: cdwomack@hotmail.com CS Lewis said that one may have an unhealthy interests in the demons or one may ignore them altogether; either way, Lewis said, the demons are equally pleased by both errors. I have a book I've written THE PROMISE AND HOPE OF HOLINESS and I talk about a 'demonology' along the Lines suggested by M. Scott Peck in his PEOPLE OF THE LIE - a work, imo, even more profound than his classic THE ROAD LESS TRAVELED! Humanity, he says has detailed its struggle with evil and codified it in literature! I believe he's right! We ignore his advice to our peril.
@QQminusS - "allopathic" - I've learned a new one.
I SAW HER - th-cam.com/video/FamhKAErp6g/w-d-xo.html
I like how after Dr. Guthrie introduced his story all Cam says is "oh incase you guys are wondering I sold my bookshelf." ..... hmmm
Yeah I was hoping he didn't feel snubbed.
Anyone who wants to understand the actual biblical world or Demons and Angels should look into Dr Michael Heiser. It’s fascinating
I'll check him out! Thanks for the suggestion 😁💜🙏
@@cygnusustus I was super skeptical of him too at first. What aspects of his analysis on 2nd temple Judaism and Deuteronomy 32 do you disagree with?
@@cygnusustus ridiculous compared to what?
@@daniellecox6534 there just trolling
@@cygnusustus I can tell by the way you’re responding that you have no idea what Heiser says about this subject or the depths of his intelligence in biblical and Hebrew studies. Someone probably gave you an overview rendition and you made Heaps of assumptions without actually reading his books or listening to his lectures.
Anyone who denies the existence of demons .. back up your talk then and go play with an ouija board a few times and then see what happens ...:)
@MSONA glad to hear that ... hope it stays that way
@MSONA well keep doing what your re
Doing and I’m sure your prayers will be answered :)
@MSONA aww how sweet !
@@MrCt40 Before I saw Cameron's interview with Fr. Lampert, I would have agree with MSONA, but now I think he's missing something important. Someone wrote in "I listen to Satanic music all the time. How come I haven't been possessed?" Fr. Lampert came back with a better question. "Why would Satan possess someone he already owns?"
@MSONA demons don’t exist this guy explains why demons don’t exist as a Christian I agree demons don’t exist so that’s why I’m going to send you a video explaining why demons don’t exist and why Christians should not believe in them here is the link m.th-cam.com/video/bJlvKg61USw/w-d-xo.html
Hi Cameron, can I have your permission to translate some of your videos to Indonesian language and upload it on my channel?
Demons don't probably exist, they exist.
@Language and Programming Channel I don’t think they exist right now as a Christian I think most cases in the Bible it’s symbolic I will give a few sources on why I don’t believe in demons not all Christians believe in the same doctrines
As a Christian myself I am disappointed in this video because personally I do not believe in demons or a literal satan this is because I have reasons too here are my sources on why I think this way
Why not to believe in a literal satan source 1:www.iup.edu/WorkArea/DownloadAsset.aspx?id=161917
Source 2:www.pantagraph.com/blogs/pulpit/crenshaw-why-not-to-believe-in-a-literal-satan/article_484e14f6-7a34-5df0-ab0f-067e728013d1.html
Did Jesus believe in demons many of you would say he does by referring to several passages in scripture where he mentions demons well I think this article could change your mind please take a look: www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/pdfplus/10.1086/476419
Here is the mp3 download of the article explaining if Jesus believed in demons or not for anyone who wants to listen: www.mediafire.com/file/mw8bf9x2oak11k8/Did+Jesus+believe+in+demons?.mp3/file
So in short no you do not need to believe in demons to be Christian.
Why not to believe in a literal satan and the origins of the concept of satan mp3 download for people who want to listen to the article: www.mediafire.com/file/bf1vlum3uvrjy52/Sweeney.mp3/file
EDIT
this is a video over 1 hour talking about why we don’t believe in demons from a pastor:m.th-cam.com/video/bJlvKg61USw/w-d-xo.html
@@amazinggamingbro947 You are very wrong my friend. The supernatural does exist. Jesus cast demons out of possessed people in the Bible. And although very rare, poltergeists/possessions still happen to this day
@@amazinggamingbro947 you are deceived badly. That’s exactly what Satan wants you to think.
@Language and Programming Channel it does not follow that everything that exists can be shown empirically to exist. It is about finding the best explanation of all phenomenon.
Have you considered talking with Dr. Michael Heiser? He has a whole lot to say about spiritual beings.
Heiser has been super helpful for my own study on this subject. The thing about Heiser that I love the most is that he always brings everything back to the purity of the Gospel.
@@cygnusustus William Peter Blaty (of THE EXORCIST fame) said that the fact remains that every culture since time immemorial has a 'demonology'. Christian theology notwithstanding, there is just more that we don't know than that we do. There are such experiences, as The Exorcist, that defy our present categories....
@@cygnusustus So you dont believe in the existence of supernatural beings?
@@cygnusustus Absolutely I do. But reason & evidence are subjective, no?
@@jamesmcalister1383 No. Evidence is objective. Reason can be inferential or deductive.
Can your beliefs be derived from evidence using reason, or do you have to rely on Faith to support your beliefs?
Ooff Cameron. Good and necessary content. 🙌🏽🙌🏽🙌🏽🙌🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽
It's a bit weird, and it happened twice as far as I know, that after a great explanation of his guests about the topic, Cameron will then suddenly talk about his shelf. It also happened with the exorcist Catholic priest. It's kinda off-putting and cringe. Look Cameron, thank you for your works and efforts but I think we're more interested with the topics at hand rather than the color of your background lights. Thanks.
I do believe in demons, not only because of the scriptures say and also cause the arguments are really strong about them
@John Paul your comparation is misplaced
Yes we might not be able to isolate one particular cause of certain atypical mental conditions and disorders, because they are usually connected to a whole cluster of physiological, psychological and even social influences which altogether cause the brain to go haywire.
However, it is very interesting and not boding well at all for the existence of actual demons, that those conditions traditionally most often associated with "demonic possession", somehow seem to be best understood by psychiatry.
It is precisely those conditions with most prevalent and obvious, most "violent" and disturbing symptoms, so often attributed to the demonic affliction...conditions such as epilepsy, tourette's syndrome, paranoid schizophrenia...etc. that are in fact very well understood in terms of their causes.
Yeah, Guthrie is being incredibly disingenuous about his explanation for the way mental disorders are categorized. Even he must know that the brain is tremendously complex organ and we've barely scraped the surface when it comes to investigating how it functions (and malfunctions).
He also ignores the growing body of evidence of how brain injury can significantly alter a person's behavior both behaviorally and psychologically, no demons necessary. No doubt, as our scientific knowledge of the brain increases, Guthrie is going to have to start moving the goalposts.
@@EnglishMike Moving the goalposts is what religion's all about. That's why mainstream Christianity today barely resembles the religion from 17 centuries ago and almost everything left is a metaphor.
It's why Jordan Peterson gained more popularity than any pastor or priest...before he got into politics and became a joke, that is.
In the next couple of decades, I can totally see Christians starting to make claims similar to those of Buddhists, for example; Christianity isn't my religion, it's my philosophy.
At any rate, an exorcism never helped anybody who really needed help. It only messed up a lot of people even more, and even killed plenty. No wonder the priests who still believe in that BS sell the narrative that a person can get "repossessed", so some might need dozens of exorcisms. It's job security for those charlatans.
But a grown man with a PhD. defending the notion of demons in this day and age, is just pathetic.
@Vera The most critical problem aren't people like you, who just say: maybe belief in God can alleviate some people's suffering. Maybe it can.
However, lots of things can alleviate people's suffering...narcotics for example.
The key is, once you go down that route, there's always a risk of side effects, such as addiction, or likewise in the case of irrational ideas, the person can start using God as a crotch.
Worse yet, the person can as a result adopt harmful religious beliefs to an ever increasing extent.
That aside, the main issue here is something else. It's selling the idea of demon possession and an exorcism as the cure, when that is just factually not the case.
It's the equivalent of using leeches, or blood letting and people subjected to this often get permanently mentally scarred.
Also if their issue is some type of a schizoaffective disorder, this medieval nonsense is only enabling their delusions and effectively not only not helping, but making them worse.
@Vera Pretend all you like. That's what the religious do anyways.
Narcotics are at least real and God is not.
@Vera Oh please spare me this boring, pathetic victim card.
You got offended because I compared God to narcotics.
Boohoo...
I use to read Dr. Guthrie's debate in the early days of the internet.
please invite Dr. Heiser as well!
As a second step, I would enjoy a conversation about the subject with Dr. Heiser and the people you had invited already .
Do you know the work of Dr. Kurt Koch? He was very famous in Germany.
Pray for Dr. Heiser, he is seriously ill. It's not corona, I forget now what it is, but it's pretty serious I understand.
Given that you covered the demonic well this month. It would be fitting, appreciated, and needed to cover the Angels and Saints. After all Halloween is just the Night before the Feast for All Saints.
Cameron, your interviews a usually very smooth. This one seems a bit disjointed. Is the move distracting you?
I never had any experience either, except maybe from sleep paralysis when I was an atheist, after i accepted Christ I never had such an episode..
It's said that no true Christian has ever claimed to have been abducted by aliens. There was one lady, who said she thought she was being abducted and just started praying and it stopped. I wrote a really long comment about my experiences when I was young with what ppl call sleep paralysis, except I could move. Something dark and blacker than black would suddenly wake me up, hover over me, I could feel it's breath. It felt like it wanted my soul. I just curled up into the fetal position an pulled the covers over me tight and closed my eyes and prayed for Jesus to make it go away. It did. BUT it happened every night for an unspecified period of time. It also happened to my younger brother. We never told each other about it until we were grown an married. We slept in the same room as kids. Both saved and baptized in our local church our mother made us attend. She didn't go, and she needed too, because whatever that was, moved into her. Split our family up. Now it's trying to split my brother and his wife up. They live in the house to care for our disabled mother. Guess what room they live in.
What he said about mental health is so true, I studied Psychology at the university for 4 years, just to realize that there is no scientific explanation for any personality desorder. The only thing that professionals and researchers can do it to put labels that never explains the actual cause.
It's not true to say there is no explanation. There's plenty of evidence for what are the risk factors for schizophrenia, for example, including genetics, early brain development, complications in pregnancy and during birth, premature birth, etc. and the triggering of the disorder is known to be linked to high stress levels and/or drug use.
Sure, it could be that we will never be able to pin down the direct cause of a specific case of schizophrenia to a single direct cause, but that is true of many diseases and conditions that nobody would consider attributing to supernatural causes, especially when it comes to the brain, like Parkinson's disease and Alzheimer's. Invoking the God of the Gaps fallacy is a dangerous game when progress on understanding brain function and dysfunction is still being made.
@@EnglishMike Well put. That person's post was baffling. If a scientific explanation doesn't currently exist why would anyone believe there could never be one? Because confirmation bias. 🤔
Psychologists absolutely make statements of etiology. This professor is extremely misinformed about psychology and causation
Thanks.
I seen a man turn into a demon, I had looked away, when I looked at him again he looked like a classic demon. His head and face was all narely, covering his head was a membrane you could see blood red but wasn’t bloody. I looked away several times getting my bearings, once I looked back he was normal.
I think if we believe in God then we have to assume that demons are real too. However, if you do not, you will never believe in demons without any scientistic proof of it.
From what I understood, the whole premise of demons 'probably' existing is that the bible is 100% taken at face value. I am not sure there is any specific evidence outside of self testimony in the modern world.
I don't believe in demons but what baffles me is sleep paralysis I've experienced, and people I know experienced them too. And we can describe the same experience, even that old lady that screams in your face. Only had that happen once. I think its referred as a "succubus."
I had one also, I was sleeping and went to move and couldn't, I looked at the foot of my bed and there was a dark figure and it reached out and touched the flat of my foot and it disappeared and I was able to move. I was having nightmares. I could see a dark cloud and a face of a vampire like figure in it and it wanted to suck my energy, as in my happiness and I called out for the blood of Jesus and it left and went towards my son. After I became Christian my nightmares stopped but then my son started to do drugs. It's like what I saw in my dreams was reflecting reality. Afterwards I prayed over my son and he stopped doing drugs.
@@sally9352 Well for me I called out to my great grandmother, she passed away the day before and I had just came home from the hospital and went to sleep. And that's when I had my sleep paralysis.
I do believe in demons, though I think our understanding of them and what they truly are (or even what possession actually is) is extremely limited. I dont think we'll ever truly understand them in this life
One person I really enjoy in this realm of study is Derek Prince. He is great if you haven’t checked him out yet! Although not a philosopher, he is a pastor (deceased now) who had a great ministry in this realm.
I enjoy listening to him, he was excellent.
@@ReStOrEdLiFe88 Awesome!!
I WAS in contact with Dr. Gallagher over the phone and he did call me back and helped me feel I wasnt crazy...I was NOT under possession Yet, the house was Infested with the oppressor. OK YES I Believe in Demons, I was attacked in my home..I had a Greek Orthodox Priest help me,( I am catholic and they would NOT HELP me). So Yes..Dr. Gallagher from Valhalla NY spoke to me on the phone. TY
Oh my... Sorry to hear that, hope you're doing well!
Why on earth they refused to help? Aren't they supposed to do what their job as priests is?
Cam, why do you say that you hate the term "null hypothesis?"
“Probably” is an odd word to use. If one believes they don’t exist then they reject what the Bible clearly has to say on the matter. Moreover, they discount the many testimonies of people’s encounter with the demonic. I have both personally witnessed and read testimonial evidence about it. And it is backed up by scripture.
Why do you simply accept something is true on the basis of it being biblical? Isn't the whole point of Apologetics to provide evidence for Christian belief outside the Bible? The Christian belief of the Bible says so therefore it must be true reminds me of this video: th-cam.com/video/itWNPh_5Jgc/w-d-xo.html
Worldview Detective The bible is the word of God, therefore it is 100% true and exact.
@@sarahs8371 Do you have any evidence to support that claim? Muslims say that the Quran is the word of God and 100% true and exact
Worldview Detective th-cam.com/video/M3kM6Rax1AU/w-d-xo.html This is a great video for your question
@@worldviewdetective9456 TH-cam deleted my comment twice in this reply section. I gave a lot of evidence but i don’t have time to type it out a third time.
Francis McNutt is a man you went to talk to. He has written a brilliant book on the subject.
Is dr. Guthrie the same denomination as Mike licona?
Is he the same denomination as Stephen Meyer?
I am very shocked that "Christians" actually debate the existence of demons. The Bible clearly says that they exist - Jesus Christ our Lord exorcised them from a lot of people. If you doubt whether the spiritual realm exist, the devil already has you in his clutches.
Will you ever do in a debate against Richard Dawkins or Bill Nye the science Guy
@@creatinechris you sure about that
@@creatinechris because cameron it's not someone they can just run over
@@creatinechris thanks for sharing your opinion
@Thread Bear thanks for sharing your opinion but none of us can really announce unless it actually happens
@Thread Bear calm down, who said I didn't know those things the fact is we really can't remember till it might happen I will return to contact capturing Christianity to see if he would debate Richard Dawkins but we really don't know and I'm living water says that Charles Darwin wasn't atheist so what I really don't know
It is REAL. That is the powerful temptation of the Devil to us.. that He Does not exist.
Anything we strongly believe can exist...but only in our mind.
Willy H. R. I didn't believe in demons before I had a personal experience with them.
You all may be interested in Mike Heiser's work. Check out his yt videos called Supernatural and Reversing Hermon. He's written books too.
Pls. Pray for Dr. Heiser, he is seriously ill. It's not Corona, something else and I already forgot what. Derek and Sharon Gilbert mentioned it on their YT channel a few wks ago. Dr. Heiser was a constant presence on Skywatch Media Or Skywatch TV...one is Christian Channel you can also watch on TV or youtube, the other is some guy who just reports on space weather, ufo's, meteors every morn about 5 am. I get them confused is why I'm telling you this. It's one of the two channels.
You should interview Neil Anderson
Demons definitely exist.
PLEASE INTERVIEW JESSE ROMERO... BOOK THE DEVIL IN THE CITY OF ANGELS!
DEMONOLOGIST, AND WITH AMAZING PERSONAL EXPERIENCIES.. WONDERFUL IN THIS TOPIC!!!
To whom it may concern regarding Braude vs Sudduth on survival vs living-agent psi:
(wrote this quickly, but if you have genuine questions or concerns then please raise them)
UMBC Philosopher Stephen Braude's 2003 book "Immortal Remains" is an in depth philosophical analysis of the empirical arguments for postmortem survival, with the arguments stemming from research into trance mediumship, NDE/OBEs, alleged reincarnation, and heart/lung transplant cases. Much of the work discussed or alluded to was carried out by the British Society for Psychical Research (SPR) and its American branch (founded in 1882 and 1885 respectively), both of which are still around today and whose members include skeptics and "believers" alike (e.g. arch skeptic Richard Wiseman was a council member for the SPR for ten years...). Braude shows that, in the best cases (e.g. Kakie sittings and GP sittings among countless others) the mundane "usual suspects" of fraud, malobservation, etc. are unable to even "get a foot in the door." He then explores what he calls "exotic but non-paranormal" explanations in terms of latent savant-like talents that emerge only in certain dissociative states. Here again Braude shows that the "best cases" can't be explained this way due the fact (or very high likelihood) of anomalous information acquisition *not* mediated by the five senses. This leaves only two options:
A: Genuine instances of survival (with the surviving personality somehow interacting with the empirical world)
or
B: Psychic functioning among living persons that mimics or simulates the appearance of postmortem survival. LAP hypothesis or "super-psi" hypothesis, although the latter term is often taken to be pejorative and misleading. LAP arguments often overlap with arguments over Schizoaffective spectrum and/or Dissociative Identity Disorder (DID), especially in cases of trance mediumship. It can be argued that, in cases where "normal" non-survival explanations fail, it may still be the case that these personalities are the product of dissociative states that allow the use of latent psychic functioning, which together look an awful lot like someone is really getting intimate information from a departed loved on.
(NO, I am not saying that DID and schizophrenia are the same. Many people mistake the two. They're different conditions)
B comes in a variety of forms, and critics allege that it would require a degree of psi prowess that hasn't been demonstrated in non-survival contexts. Braude questions this claim but also shows that it wouldn't matter that much anyway. Even IF psychic functioning is less refined in all non-survival contexts, one can still argue that LAP is more plausible than actual survival.
In studying the merits of LAP Braude did extensive research into DID and dissociation, resulting in both his book "First Person Plural: Multiple Personality and the Philosophy of Mind" (tinyurl.com/yyrsrzap)*and* his receiving the Distinguished Achievement Award from the International Society for the Study of Trauma and Dissociation (you can find his name on their official web site; I'm too lazy to fetch it)
That aside, Braude ultimately ends up concluding that the scales are slightly tipped in favor of survival over LAP, but "it's not a slam-dunk."
ENTER SUDDUTH
Philosophy professor Michael Sudduth argues that survivalists implicitly presuppose certain "auxiliary assumptions" that they haven't shown to be plausible. As a result, among other things, Sudduth thinks that survivalists have *not* been able to rule out LAP as a competing explanation for the empirical observations. Sudduth himself specifically details the "34 veridical claims" in the kakie sittings and the impressive hits in the GP sittings. See his book "A Philosophical Critique of Empirical Arguments for Postmortem Survival" (tinyurl.com/y46bddqv)
To be sure, there are alleged survival cases that Sudduth wouldn't even want to invoke LAP for, and my above summary of his "Philosophical Critique" is pitiful given the rich and sophisticated content, but I'm not aware of any place where Sudduth has denied the existence of ESP/psi effects. On the contrary, in several places he seems to imply their existence.
For example, in a blog entry in which he replies to survivalist Christ Carter, Sudduth writes,
[QUOTE]
Most empirical survivalists, and Carter is no exception here, think it’s fairly clear that ordinary-psi cannot account for salient strands of evidence. Hence, Carter speaks of “ESP of the required power and range” (emphasis mine). So survivalists tend to devote most of their energy to refuting the super-psi version of the LAP hypothesis.
Now I’ve argued elsewhere (Sudduth 2013a, 2013b) that survivalists have not adequately grounded the ostensible requirement that psi be of a greater magnitude, potency, or refinement than ordinary-psi in order to pose a problem for survival arguments. In this I’m preceded by and INDEBTED TO THE HIGH CALIBER WORK OF PHILOSOPHER STEPHEN BRAUDE (2003). Part of the problem is that survivalists operate with an implausibly narrow conception of how living-agent psi would challenge empirical arguments for survival, and this is often further based on a weak grasp of the content of the LAP hypothesis. I’ve tried to show how ORDINARY-PSI DOES INDEED pose a challenge to classical empirical survival arguments. This is particularly acute when survival arguments are formulated along Bayesian lines and propose a conclusion about the net plausibility of the survival hypothesis based on the extent to which the survival hypothesis leads us to expect the data, the extent to which the data are otherwise not to be expected, and the initial credibility of the survival hypothesis.
[END QUOTE, caps added for emphasis. see michaelsudduth.com/chris-carters-challenge-survival-vs-super-psi/]
Here Sudduth not only praises Braude but also implicitly accepts psi, at least for the sake of argument.
In a 2019 interview with Carlos Alvarado, Sudduth says, "I also benefited from a decade of conversations with parapsychologists and fellow philosophers who have worked and published on this topic. I’ve also joined parapsychologists on some field investigations over the years (with Loyd Auerbach, for example), and I’ve critically examined mediums firsthand. I'VE ALSO PERSONALLY EXPERIENCED a broad range of ostensibly paranormal phenomena." (caps added). See tinyurl.com/y3vhwuf8
Finally, see Sudduth's 2009 paper "Super-psi and the Survivalist Interpretation of Mediumship" at michaelsudduth.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/jse_23_2_sudduth.pdf . From the abstract:
[QUOTE/] According to the survivalist interpretation of mediumship, the existence of discarnate persons provides the best explanation for the data associated with physical and mental mediumship. Others-advocates of what is often called the “super-psi hypothesis”-maintain that the data of mediumship may be at least equally explained in terms of living agent psi (ESP and psychokinesis). Many defenders of the survivalist interpretation of mediumship attempt to deflate the alleged explanatory virtues of the super-psi hypothesis by arguing that the hypothesis is unfalsifiable and lacks independent evidential support. My central contention in this paper is that these frequently encountered survivalist criticisms of the super-psi hypothesis are ultimately self-defeating to the case for survival from mediumship. To show this I first argue in some detail that the survivalist interpretation of mediumship is committed to a kind or degree of psi that is indistinguishable from what is required by the super-psi hypothesis. From this vantage point it can be shown that any attempt to impugn the explanatory virtues of the super-psi hypothesis on account of the kind or degree of psi it requires undercuts the argument for survival itself. [/END OF QUOTATION]
I'm also trying to dig up an old power-point slide by Sudduth.
I am FB "friends" with him so I could just reactivate my FB and ask him to be 100% sure, but I REALLY hate FB lol
Now all of this is relevant because, contrary to many skeptics, there *are* cases of trance mediumship where the personality (the "controls") provide very imitate information without cheating, fraud, cold reading, hot reading, etc. Yes, many other cases clearly do involve fraud. But some very impressive cases don't. Okay, so what? Well, that leaves the question as to the ontological status of these personalities and whether they're actual non-embodied minds ("spirits") or secondary personalities created by the medium's own subconscious but with genuine psi playing a role as well. If the former, there's an eerie (if distant and vague) possibility that the "spirits" aren't even human.
*That* is why I was asking about the research. It's true that Braude and Sudduth disagree (slightly) on the virtues of LAP and (more strongly) on the auxiliary assumptions required for the survivalist interpretation, but I wouldn't say that they "don't see eye to eye."
P.S. I suspect that both of them would be horrified to know that I'm using their work in this particular context lol.
I am sorry i read through it do not understand it can you please sum up what your say i am 16 year old on the internet not very smart
Patrick, how are you
I play Minecraft while watching these streams because I'm interested but have a short attention span so I play while listening . I'd really like to know if this is bad or good because I'm not sure
hey..at least your listening and that's a start. I don't believe anything to be bad, if it leads you to the Lord. Just my opinion.
Probably? Are you sure?
They exist, I have seen them manifest numerous times and explains so much
When you say manifest, do you mean you actually saw them (as you would be able to see me for instance), or do you mean something else?
I did too see them in my home, I had a Greek orthodox priest help me for 5yrs, it was a battle. It made me stronger in my faith, to look towards the light of Jesus Christ, and THIS is what saved and protected me.
@@Apanblod see? No, but manifest in other ways
@@rep3e4 such as?
Why did he write a book about demons and never go see an excorsism? My first thought immediately is that i would like to see one. Let me guess, the Church wont let you? And that's not suspicous? You can watch surgery with permission with the patient. Wouldn't these people want the world to know that demons are real and gladly accept any observation? And finally, why do you need to go through all the trouble of diagnosing someone through a doctor when you could simply splash them with holy water. Holy water and rosary only works in private rooms with no witnesses?
Very ignorant comment, you seem better than most so I will remain kind.
@@stuntbaby4927 I would say the same to you
Is he a Catholic, Protestant or Orthodox Christian?
I've seen both interviews.. I'm here to tell you there's definitely evil beings out there
I do in fact believe in demons. I've personally interacted with one. Also, demons are definitely the source of edgy pop atheism popular with 14 year olds.
@MSONA An edgy 14 year old atheist.
@MSONA Because it said edgy 14 year old atheist things verbatim.
@MSONA Because it was talking through a 20 something woman.
@MSONA Not gonna lie, this conversation has me laughing. Keep it up, guys!
@@Real_LiamOBryan ikr
What was the point of this discussion if in fact you have no Foundation of personal experience?
Just another walk through the swamp!! No thanks
Blessings...🙏
Personal experiences are not useful to the argument. They may make for good stories, but do nothing to establish what Scripture teaches about demons.
Go chasing after personal experiences and you will get drawn away from the word.
There are many things in life worth thinking about even if you have no personal experience of those things.
to quote a not-so cowardly lion: I do believe in spooks
“17 The seventy-two returned with joy, saying, “Lord, even the demons are subject to us in your name!”
18 And he said to them, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.” Luke 10:17-18
If Jesus didn’t see Satan fall from heaven, what did He see? Was Jesus lying about witnessing Satans fall from heaven? When these 72 disciples returned rejoicing that demons were subject to the name of Jesus, were they lying? If so why didn’t Jesus rebuke them? Why did Jesus, instead, tell them not to rejoice that the spirits were subject to THEM but rather that their names were written in heaven (verse 20)?
“6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them.
7 The LORD said to Satan, “From where have you come?” Satan answered the LORD and said, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking up and down on it.” Job 1:6-7
Satan says he is walking to and fro upon the earth. So he’s obviously been cast down from heaven. He is walking around to and fro, up and down on the earth. Jesus states He witnessed when Satan was cast down from heaven. Who is telling the truth here?
when jesus talks about demons i think he is talking oabout demons that posses the body/heat like basically i think the demons are you and you ar epossed by them but there are other views on how to look at it without beliveing in literal demons the videos and links i gave give way beter explanations and better views than I can give and my source on the orgins of satan goes over that passage.
The Hebrew word for Satan means "adversary." In Genesis, the serpent of the Adam and Eve story is believed to be the first voice of Satan. In Isaiah 14:12 Satan is identified as a fallen angel; and in 2 Corinthians 4:4 as "the god of this world." Jesus at one point chastised Peter’s behavior, calling him Satan. Christ explained why: "You (Peter) are a hindrance to me. For you are not setting your mind on the things of God, but on the things of man.”
Gregory Mobely and T.J. Wray, The Birth of Satan: Tracing the Devil’s Biblical Roots (New York, Palgrave Macmillan 2005),
pp. 85-87.
If there was at first no devil, then who was called śaṭan? Within the Hebrew Bible, the
term is found in ten instances. Six of these uses were not to describe a divine figure, but a mere
human being. The first of these is found in 1 Samuel 29:4 where the term is used to describe
David himself as he is on the run from Saul, the first King of Israel who feared that David will
steal his throne and end his lineage. David spends time hiding within the Philistine army who
was engaged against the Israelites, but is soon forced to leave when Philistine commanders
feared that he might become a śaṭan, an enemy or perhaps here a “stumbling block” to their goal
of conquering Israel. In the second instance, found in 2 Samuel 19:21-23, śaṭan is used to
describe Abashai, David’s nephew and a member of his court. Abashai attempts to convince
David to kill Shimei, a Benjaminite who actively spoke out against David in the times of Saul.
Victor Hamilton suggests that David forgives Shimei in order to gain favor among the Saulide
Benjaminites and that is why David refers to Abashai as an “adversary.”4
The third use is found
in 1 Kings 5:4, where the great king Solomon, the son of David whose reign was mostly
peaceful, reflects on having no more śaṭans or “adversaries” to fight. The next two uses are
found in 1 Kings 11:14 and 23, where śaṭan is used to refer to two militaristic adversaries, Hadad
the Edomite and Rezon, son of Eliada, stirred up by God late in the reign of Solomon. The final
human adversary is mentioned in Psalm 109:1-6 where the Psalmist indicates that a slanderous
opponent had been falsely “accusing” him of wrongdoing. In this last case, śaṭan is used to
describe an adversary within a legal proceeding.
In contrast to these six human śaṭans, the Hebrew Bible also uses the term four times for
celestial servants of God. These figures are typically seen as angelic beings, or (in Hebrew)
benay elohim, “sons of God.” According to Elaine Pagels, these adversaries were not necessarily
evil by nature, but simply carried out a thankless task at the order of God, much like the Angel of
4 Victor Hamilton, “Satan,” in the Anchor Bible Dictionary (New York: Doubleday, 1992), vol. 5, pp. 986
Death.5
The first of these cosmic adversaries can be found in the story of Balaam and the Angel
in Numbers 22:22. God was angered by Balaam for travelling with the men of Moab who
wished to attack Israel, a nation blessed by God. In his anger, God sends an angel bearing a
sword to block their “perverse path.” However, this angel is completely invisible to Balaam and
can only be seen by the donkey that Balaam is riding. The donkey, seeing this angel with a
sword in hand, attempts to move out of the angel’s way to save Balaam’s life three times.
Balaam strikes him each time. God then speaks to Balaam through the donkey, shaming him for
his poor treatment of the animal, and allows him to see the angel that blocked his path. In this
instance, śaṭan is seen as a fully loyal servant of God who follows his command without
question; a far cry from the Satan we know today.6
Of the four cosmic adversaries in the Hebrew Bible, it is haśśaṭan ("the satan") in the
Book of Job that plays the largest role of any “adversary” in the Hebrew Bible. This story begins
as God is bragging about a man named Job, one his most loyal worshippers. Haśśaṭan
approaches God and challenges him to let him lay waste to the man's property, livestock, and
family, believing that Job is only loyal to God because he has a good and protected life. God
accepts his challenge on the condition that he does not harm Job and haśśaṭan destroys all of
Job’s possessions and kills his ten children. Much to haśśaṭan’s dismay, Job still remains loyal
to God. After God once again begins to brag about Job, haśśaṭan offers another challenge. This
time, he believes that if Job is physically hurt, he will turn from God. God again accepts his
challenge on the condition that he does not kill Job and haśśaṭan strikes Job with boils, burns,
and other injuries. Yet again, Job remains faithful to God and haśśaṭan seems to vanish from the
story. According to T.J. Wray and Gregory Mobely, the Book of Job is symbolic. Job represents
5 Elaine Pagels, The Origin of Satan (New York, Random House Inc. 1995), p. 39. 6 C. Breytanbach, “Satan,” in Dictionary of Deities and Demons in the Bible (Leiden, Brill 1999), p. 727.
the people of Israel who had dealt with much suffering, including the destruction of Jerusalem
and the Babylon exile that lasted from 586 to 539 BCE.
7
Haśśaṭan in Job, although it is likely a
direct ancestor of our modern Satan, is still not considered to be truly evil. Haśśaṭan is presented
as a member of God’s court and has a very specific role - the accuser, or a kind of prosecuting
attorney, a role found throughout Near Eastern court systems. It is his job to observe the
behavior of God’s people and report any perceived shortcomings.8
The third celestial adversary of the Hebrew Bible is found in Zechariah 3:1-2, and here he
reprises the role of “the accuser” or prosecuting attorney of Job. This passage recounts the
vision of Joshua who sees himself standing before the heavenly court to be judged on his ability
to serve as the High Priest of Jerusalem. In the vision, Joshua is wearing dirty clothes, an
indication that the trial is nearing its end, and haśśaṭan has been able to make valid points against
him. However, God, finding favor in Joshua, rebukes haśśaṭan and removes his dirty clothes,
removing his guilt. This story solidifies haśśaṭan’s role as God’s “accuser.” However, what is
most important from this story is the interaction between God and haśśaṭan, the one as
prosecutor and the other as Joshua's defense. Although it is in a legal setting, this is the first time
in the Bible that a character called śaṭan is the direct adversary of God. It is perhaps these śaṭans
of Zechariah and Job that may have planted the seeds for the belief in Satan as a true opponent of
God and the bringer of evil.
The final celestial śaṭan in the Hebrew Bible is found in 1 Chronicles, one of the last
books of the Hebrew Bible to have been written (in around 300 BCE). The passage in 1
Chronicles 21:1 retells the story of David and his census already found in the Book of
2 Samuel, an earlier account of David's deeds; the main difference is that the census of 2 Samuel
7 Mobely and Wray, The Birth of Satan, p. 59. 8 Breytanbach, “Satan,” p. 728.
is David's idea, whereas in 1 Chronicles, it is śaṭan who incites David to do it. In 2 Samuel 24
(the earlier account), David decides to take a census of his kingdom, an action that angers God.
David is offered forgiveness from God in exchange for three days of pestilence over his kingdom
brought by an entity called Mashit, "the Destroyer" sent by God. In this early version of the
story, David appears to take the census on his own accord, but we are given a glimpse of a
creature with destructive power - the Mashit, or Destroyer - who may presage something about
the ability of the later, much-more developed concept of Satan to bring about suffering. Perhaps
this is why, in the retelling of the story found in 1 Chronicles 21, it is śaṭan who incites David to
take the census, and not David's own idea.
This shows a rather interesting development of the concept of Satan within the Jewish
tradition. It was becoming a more accepted idea that some kind of divine adversary had existed
for a long time. But perhaps most startling for us is that in 1 Chronicles, Satan is used as a
proper noun for the first time in the Bible.9
This seems to suggest that śaṭan had finally grown
from being a simple term used to describe any kind of adversary, human or angelic, to a major
source of malice or evil. This concept of Satan would continue to develop outside of the Jewish
canon, in the period known as the intertestamental period
The intertestamental period refers to the 300-400 years between the completion of the
Hebrew Bible (what Christian would call the Old Testament), and the beginning of the New
Testament that saw a flourishing of religious writings, especially apocalyptic ones
@@amazinggamingbro947 Psalms 106:37-38 "They sacrificed their son's and daughters to the demons; they poured out innocent blood, the blood of their sons and daughters, whom they sacrificed to the idols of Canaan, and the land was polluted with blood." Deuteronomy 18:10 " thres shall not be found among you anyone who burns his sons or his daughters as an offering, anyone who practices divination or tells fortunes or interprets omens, or a sorcerer" 2 kings 21:6 "And he burned his son as an offering and used fortune-telling and omens and dealt with mediums and with necromancers. He did much evil in the sight of the Lord, provoking him to anger." Ezekiel 23:37 " For they have committed adultery, and blood is on their hands. With theirs idols they have committed adultery, and they have even offered up to them for food the children whom they had borne to me" 1 Corinthians 10:20 " No,I imply that what pagans sacrifice they offer to demons and not to God. I do not want you to be participants with demons" I can go on and on in the old testament on how gods are demons. Ephesians 6:2 " For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places." Christians know that satan means adversary we know this becaus we are in a spiritual warfare with him. Ephesians 6:11" Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the schemes of the devil" 2 Corinthians 10:3-5 " For though we walk in the flesh, we are not wagging war according to the flesh. For the weapons of our warfare are not of flesh but have divine power to destroy strongholds. We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to Christ. Revelation 12:7-9 " Now a war arose in heaven, Michael and his Angel's fighting against the dragon. And the dragon and his angles fought back, but he was defeated, and there was no longer any place for him in heaven. And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan,the deceiver of the whole world- he was thrown down to earth, and his Angel's were thrown down with him." James 2:19 " you believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe and shudder" this is why Jesus died for our sins because the devil, satan, the great dragon, our accuser and adversary deceives us in many ways, with, gods, feelings, religion, atheism. 1 John 5:19 "we know that we are of God. And that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one" John 8:44" You are of your father the devil, and want to do the desires of your father. HE was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is not truth in him whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies"
@@sally9352 I’m going to make a response to your comment giving a bunch of Bible verses I’m in online school so when I’m done I will dissect your comment and show you how there are no demons.
@@amazinggamingbro947 ok
I think they exist, but I want to show some more skepticism in terms of how that works with psychiatry and the individual’s background.
I just started this video so im not sure if this guy is catholic but the catholic church requires a psychiatric evaluation before an exorcism check out CCs interview with Fr Lampert
I don't believe in demons. Even when I was a believer I didn't. It could be because I grew up Mormon. Demons are not discussed much. It was in the early church (certain hand shakes to make sure you are talking to an angel and not a demon). However mormons don't really have lessons on demons, the leaders don't talk about demons, it isn't culturally acceptable to talk about demon possessions. I'm sure some mormons believe in them, but they don't openly talk about it (they would probably get a funny look).
You don't believe in them because you have no experience of them. When you have had experience of them, you'll believe in them.
@@adamclark1972uk Or could it be the fact that I don't believe and that is why I never perceived one?
I believe in demons, but I'm not fully decided on how much influence they have on people and this universe in general.
I think people should take the existence of the devil and demons very very very seriously , if you don't ! Maybe you should go back over the gospels again. Every word of God is true if you doubt that ,you have a serious problem.
I think, as far as the beatific vision goes, it's not a matter of being in God's presence and seeing Him or having that fuller understanding that prevents sin. I think we still have freewill. We won't be able to deny His existence, but we could deny Him. The angels, including the fallen ones, don't deny His existence, they have all the possible knowledge we should want, but they reject Him on a personal level. It's why many of us think the argument that God could simply grant is fun knowledge of Him to prevent us from sinning isn't a good one. Proof of God's existence isn't the real issue, it's acceptance of Him. We come to knowledge of God and accept or reject Him, same as the angels. Once we make that choice, we stick with it. Which is why sermons can't be redeemed. For us, redemption is accepting Him, what Jesus did for us. The difference between us and angels, relationship wise, with God is we understand love and sacrifice which they don't because we've experienced it and they haven't. So, when we die and go to be with God, we've already made the same choice of accepting God that the unfallen angels have, and we get to experience Good the way they do, but with a deeper understanding of God's nature.
You just totally interrupted this guys train of thought to talk about your new book shelf.
What scares me more than demons, are the people that believe they actually exist.
You know what’s worse then that? People who are ignorant and believe we came from a rock and that 0+0=1 we came from nothing by nothing hmm
@@apexeleven3322 lol..what?
@@benjaminschooley3108 Exactly
@@apexeleven3322 well it's your story..
@@cygnusustus You proved nothing you just played with words I can do the same the true ignorant people are the ones that believe others believe 1+1+1=1 you see? Try again
My mother sees demonic eyes. They come to her head and give her migraines. They come to her chest and she has heart palpitations. They come to her feet and her joints hurt. She had two pastors bless her house but it didn’t work. I asked some atheists on Facebook and one of them thought that she had a mild stroke. Hopefully, the doctors will find something.
You asked some atheists on fb for medical advice for your mom ?
If your mom is being harassed by demons you're going to need a Catholic priest. A couple of pastors won't do.
Wait a minute, I thought that the original sin was the assumption of "other" or separateness from God. Is that not what holds us here as God is all pervasive, and unlimited, and just as we cannot fly because deep down inside in our subconscious we know we can't, even deeper is the fundamental assumption, moment to moment, hidden at our very core, that we are separate from God, hence we are here, and God is there. To truly be in heaven for eternity is the release of that assumption, that we cannot do, but only God can do, as we are that assumption, thus is the Glory of God that a mere assumption arising in God, is us, a being... but upon entry into heaven, that assumption is undone by God, and as a river merges into the Ocean we merge and realize at the same time that we always already were only God. Now the Angels, being beings, if beholding God, must also have a "sin" or a mistake, an imperfection from being only God, but more subtle than the mere assumption of separation from God?
I don't believe that demons are fallen angels, I see no evidence that the Bible suggests this. I think the reason there's no hint of demons in the old testament is because the Hebrews didn't interact with them. That this came about because of the exile, where some began practicing pagan religions where possession was sought after as a means of interacting with their deceased relatives. That demons are those deceased relatives.
Is the argument against the null hypothesis aimed at other Christians?
Why just toss it out so quickly, Cameron? (in the first 10 mins or so)?
Should anyone believe in supernatural aspects of their religion just toss out the null hypothesis and assume their thing exists, too?
And then later on (around 47mins in) Dr Guthrie admits he punted in his book on proving Christianity and the resurrection (which I totally don't fault him for; you can't cover everything in one book).
But then both Cameron and Dr Gutherie ask for the best arguments against demons... and say that the best argument is either personal incredulity or "well, can you disprove these other supernatural things"? (which is just people point out that you can't prove a negative).
So basically, besides conjecture about claims or interpretations of the Bible, and second (or further removed) stories, neither of you presents actual evidence for demons.
And you top it off by saying the null-hypothesis isn't valid in this case AND how dare anyone not be able to prove a negative.
How is this rational and critical thinking?
It's not. I think Cam wanted to do something seasonal. Hoping a discussion of Matthew 27:52 is next on his list.
@Resurrected Eyes I am emphasizing scripture. The articles and videos I sourced go into more detail of scripture than I can as they are more professional than me. They also use outside sources to make a point on what scripture means and what they believed and taught as well as the orgins of ideas that way we can get a better understanding of what scripture means I can all ready tell you have not looked at a single one of my sources or else you would not have made the claim none of my sources are using a biblical background i suggest you watch this video and maybe your mind will be changed here is the link to a pastor explaining why he does not believe in demons: m.th-cam.com/video/bJlvKg61USw/w-d-xo.html
.
@@silentservant_ so having a source to backup your interpretation is somehow wrong if so then I guess major speakers like William lane Craig who is featured on this channel on Quite a bit of these videos uses outside sources to to come up with the interpatation not to believe in a literal genesis 1-3 so is he wrong for having a different interpretation of scripture than others I’m not denying scripture I’m simply making a interpretation based off of the historical facts of the context of words and culture at the time as well as biblical sources as well so I don’t see how me or William lane Craig would be wrong for having a interpretation on scripture.
Ive seen them up close and personal many times.
Go on..
I thought I saw a UFO when I was a kid. It scared me so bad that I hurried down off the haystack I was on and slipped and broke my arm.
In my hometown, at a small society an evil spirit roam around the place.
Even the society kids and other adult seen the spirit.
I personally have experience some window knock once at my home n my friend's house, not sure what was that but nobody was there when i see outside the window.
And alot of my family and other people in our states have alot of news about it.
And there's a myth in our tribe who hides away from the normal people, these are all the stuff my grandpa and other elders tell story about. And many mythical creatures are also there I can go full details but it will be too long . And I can assure this stuff are true our tribes are from hilly jungles area .
@@ingtii4320people probably think my hometown is haunted too. We used to do this thing called penny tapping. What you do is peel one side off a bandaid. Stick a string on it followed by a penny. Then you go to someone's house and peel the other side of the bandaid. Then you stick it on the door window preferably in a corner or where there is a sticker. The penny side should be down. You then take the string and go behind a tree or bushes. When you pull and release the string, the penny strikes the window and is surprisingly loud.
It was so much fun because people would start waiting behind the door. They would open it immediately just to see no one there. You should try it.
I don't know your situation, but childish pranks are generally a more likely explanation than ghosts.
@@KevinN3 The thing is that in my place u will hardly or mostly none who prank.
And also my aunty and grandpa have seen the evil spirit.
And it's not something that stop it's been more than 20 years before i was born, people still see the spirit roaming around. Even believers and unbeliever in Christ have witnessed the spirit that's the point.
Demons are the Nephalim spirits.
Dont believe in demons?? Spend the night at Bob Mackeys!
But what if Dr Guthrie is possessed?
An absolutely evil being cannot exist because evil is _privatio boni_ (privation of being or non-being); but an absolute privation of being would simply be non-existence.
@@cygnusustus You have made a statement but without _any_ argument for your position. How is it the case that evil has ontological reality?
Is it a catchy title? The Bible says they EXIST. But understand if you want to catch attention of skeptics... Anyway. Jesus cast out demons, as well as his disciples did and nowadays every Christian grounded in Jesus authority given to him, can do it.
Could it be that the demons have all moved on, and their archetype in the spirit world is continually picked up by newly arrived beings -- say, departed and resentful humans, who discover the archetype and proceed to inhabit it with gusto? That could explain the degraded or essentially "broken" intellect, which is frankly stupid, though cunning. I sense humanity in that brokenness. All this "no! She's mine!" seems like a truncated human ego to me.
When I say "moved on" I mean degraded to raw materials, not that they saw the error of their ways.
Finally, another thought occurs: where would we be without demons? Clearly, in the cases that require exorcism their presence is a pathology, and outside the norm. But in subtler form, they tempt us continually. Through a welter of bad decisions we come to (painful) knowledge. We come, again, painfully, to gratitude, and to recognition of the Love of Our Father. In a world without temptation, how could this happen?
This is a really fascinating idea. It reminds me a lot of Jungian archetypal psychology and some branches of Luciferian theology... well done!
@@gideonwiley8961 Well, I'm just applying the ol' "as above, so below" Prinzip. Of course, conditions change, and motivations in the eternal lose the brownian motion that they have here. (Digression: I think, to know a human well you should reduce the sampling rate. We, so cognisant of our finite spans and unsure of which thoughts to trust, jitter and jump, such that mostly, we appear aimless. In dimensions without meaningful time, the personality would acquire a crystalline quality, because there is nothing to interrupt the flow of intention. This might explain the "bald" flavor of demonic motivation, whereas, when you talk to a guy at work, neither you nor he can really discern what he's after! :)).
If something exists, and especially if it's more "real" than we are (because what could survive timelessness but something real), then it has a purpose. I don't wish to elevate the demonic...But they are unwitting agents of our conditioning. I could imagine at the hierophant level, a degree of truck with demons: allowing them to tempt the being undergoing special conditioning, while, naturally, hoping/praying (do they pray in higher realms?) that he or she pass these tests.
Anyhoo, thank you sir, I wish you a bountiful 2021!
100% agree with the mental illness perspective here. But disagree elsewhere. Correlation is not causation, but correlation is there. Also, the actual causes of mental illnesses (especially Schizophrenia, Schizoaffective, and Bipolar I, )are just not understood in any coherent way. The Fr. previously interviewed here put way too much confidence in psychological assessment. Assessments in that field are just questionnaires only as valid as the patient's answers.
However I disagree on the "ufo" alien abduction thing. Most folks interested in that area no longer think of ufo's as nuts and bolts craft but some kind of illusion imposed on the senses. Same with experiences of abduction. So this would not be inconsistent with demonization.
Sounds like he’s talking about narcissistic angels
Is it moral for God to stand by passively and watch demons harm humanity when he could intervene? Asking for a friend.
Well one answer I can give is that demons don’t exist I have a main comment giving links to sources explaining this from a Christian point of view.
@@amazinggamingbro947 you are wrong but what is your source of truth?
@@bprathe3205 well because my sources use the Bible As there source of truth my source of truth is the Bible as well
As a Christian myself I am disappointed in this video because personally I do not believe in demons or a literal satan this is because I have reasons too here are my sources on why I think this way
Why not to believe in a literal satan source 1:www.iup.edu/WorkArea/DownloadAsset.aspx?id=161917
Source 2:www.pantagraph.com/blogs/pulpit/crenshaw-why-not-to-believe-in-a-literal-satan/article_484e14f6-7a34-5df0-ab0f-067e728013d1.html
Did Jesus believe in demons many of you would say he does by referring to several passages in scripture where he mentions demons well I think this article could change your mind please take a look: www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/pdfplus/10.1086/476419
Here is the mp3 download of the article explaining if Jesus believed in demons or not for anyone who wants to listen: www.mediafire.com/file/mw8bf9x2oak11k8/Did+Jesus+believe+in+demons?.mp3/file
So in short no you do not need to believe in demons to be Christian.
Why not to believe in a literal satan and the origins of the concept of satan mp3 download for people who want to listen to the article: www.mediafire.com/file/bf1vlum3uvrjy52/Sweeney.mp3/file
EDIT
this is a video over 1 hour talking about why we don’t believe in demons from a pastor:m.th-cam.com/video/bJlvKg61USw/w-d-xo.html
What makes something moral?
@L Lawliet the proof who existed?
Regarding arguments for demons not existing:
Jesus said they do.
That ends the discussion.
“Probably”? 😂😂😂. Oh they certainly do.
Not possible for people to UNDERSTAND the existence of Evil-Demons & The Devil himself...Evil and Demons normally walk hand in hand and when a man is in the presence of BOTH he either KNOWS or is unaware...through Invitation ie occult-satanic worship and trance or action on things evil for sheer greed and selfishness thus OPENING the door for the demon to take over their Minds and Actions...I KNOW it happened to me
Tell me more details I'm interested
Where does he get this idea that demons can interact with us cognitively but not physically? Is that even a biblical concept?
Jonathan Poland Yes it is biblical. Satan showed Jesus all the kingdoms of the world, most likely by a vision.
@@sarahs8371 but the Satan in Job 1 & 2 afflicted Job's body with sores. And killed his sons and daughters by knocking over their house with a great wind. And demons were causing physical deafness and sickness in the gospels before Jesus cast them out.???
The FALL of Lucifer, and the Angelo’s who chose to follow him = IS explained in scripture. He is called the “god” of this world, and the lord of DEATH.
I know the good Dr. said he isn't saying that mental disorders can be caused by the demonic but he is leaving the door open that certain symptoms and presentations could be demons rather than disorders. This whole approach seems wrong-headed why not just say that rather than letting people think that disorders could be misdiagnosed demonic activity?
I just want to say that as a former pentecostal the amount of Christians from that tradition who do not believe in mental health experts or psychology and who see disorders in their children as something that needs continued work for deliverance from demons rather than therapy is tragic and disgusting. I have seen it many times personally. Such people need to be called on their unscientific crap; it hurts children.
I’m Pentecostal. I believe in psychology for sure and medicine, ALONG with prayer. Cover all bases.
10.00 if demons do influnce the world then you should be able to make a controlled expermenint proving said effect am waiting
This is fascinating. I had no idea that people believed in demons.
Of course they do. Why else would people be doing black magic for thousands of years to this very day.
I completely agree with Dr Guthrie: from the Bible it follows without any doubt both the power of prayer and the existence of demons. And the opposite is also true: to show the absence of demons and/or the lack of power of prayer is proof at least of non perfect biblical revelation, as it is one of the most clear message in Acts: it is very difficult to misinterpret it or to assume it is a metaphor and not a literal truth. Either you believe all the package or none of it.
The absence of any empirical evidence for demons, and the empirical evidence against the power of prayer, is indeed not an issue if you do not need proofs for the revealed substance of the Bible. If you are building "a case for God" however, this is evidence and it should be discussed about.
Btw, the comment of Cameron about science not working because God is a free agent is amazingly uneducated, it is like not knowing the existence of quantitative social sciences. I can ensure you that no one says "Yes, empirically my theory of financial market does not work, but do not worry and follow my business advices: it is to be expected not to work empirically as firms are free agents!"
@MSONA I don't. In particularly I don't believe in the revealed nature of the Bible: I think it is just a book.
I am however pointing out that indeed from the Bible follows without doubt that demons exist. If you believe in the Bible as the word of God, and you don't need any further proof of it, you don't need any further proof for the existence of demons either.
In the same way if you don't believe in literal demons it is not consistent to believe in the revealed nature of the Bible. And if you are building "a case for God", and you are looking at various evidences to decide if God exists and the Bible is revealed, the absence of proofs of Demons is a fact to be considered.
Dr. Guthrie did not answer the question from the 59:32 mark. Is the question really that difficult to understand? -
“If ‘demons’ can speak dead languages through their oblivious hosts, why aren’t such miracles recorded as proof for language experts to authenticate?”
according to the bible demons speak understandable language. They talked with Jesus, they moaned, they gave information
Rocketos - People who are supposedly possessed by demons in modern times also speak understandable language. But, they generally don’t speak dead languages that they’ve never studied. Such an occurrence (xenoglossy) would be miraculous. My question is - why aren’t such miracles recorded as proof...?
@@choreologychannel thats interesting! I would stick to the bible and look for a medical evidence of healing (mental or physical illness) instead of dead language, because the bible doesnt address demons speaking those languages
@@Rocketos What is interesting that Father Lampert (in another recent interview on this channel/topic) enumerated a number of ‘manifestations’ of demons that have been reportedly observed routinely during MODERN exorcisms - such as levitation, supernatural strength and ‘speaking in Latin or Ancient Greek’.
Just give it a listen:
th-cam.com/video/nhhi7Fk3ueI/w-d-xo.html
Honestly, the xenoglossy miracle would be more impressive to me than levitation, because I KNOW levitation is a common magic trick that can be faked. I don’t believe any living person can fluently speak Ancient Greek authentically (well enough to fool me or any expert).
So I call BS - until someone can present me with some evidence for this claim. I don’t need a video of someone levitating (though that would be cool). I just want an audio recording of someone speaking Ancient Greek during an episode of demonic possession.
@@choreologychannel I get your point. I think more colaboration with exorcists is needed to achieve that. I know some exorcists that record the sessions, but I think a recording is not enough neither to believe (it could be faked). The best way is assisting to a spiritual deliverence session or becoming a follower of Christ and start casting out demons yourself. Btw the Holy Spirit gives the gift of tongues that can be human languages that the person doesnt know. I recommend you the book "like a mighty wind" by Mel Tari
When does he actually provide evidence for demons? His entire argument is that you can't prove the negative case (demon's don't exist), and that IF Christianity is true then demons exist. This is plain stupid.
Yes, basically, he's saying if you believe the Bible is inerrant, that's all the proof you need.
Attempts to shift the burden of proof to those who do not believe demons exist makes no sense outside the very narrow field of Christian theology, regardless of how many demonic possessions self-professed Christian exorcists claim to have witnessed.
Do demons exist? Yes of course they do but they seem to be different now, more subtly disruptive and nefarious. Where are they most likely to congregate? Right in the heart of their enemy's territory - the Christian Church. Especially the Charismatic Evangelical Christian Right, but not exclusively there. That's where my thoughts on this matter have led.
@@cygnusustus Just look at TH-cam videos of say Paula White screaming in tongues and ranting about angels coming from Africa; or Kenneth Copeland laughing maniacally about Joe Biden winning the presidency. These are just two examples of people possessed by a demon spirit. They aren't mentally ill (that's a genuine illness) and they aren't of particularly low intelligence. They are demon influenced/possessed. The evidence is all around you but you just can't see it because you've been blinded by the same spirits they are possessed by.
Angels can narcissistic and overly ambitious? There is politics in heaven? Sounds familiar...where else is it like that...hmmmm
Y*HW*H finds himself in Heaven, speaks thr Cosmos into form, created automatons which love him and respond to commands as machines should to manage the Cosmos, molds dirt into a clever ape, fabricates a nagging lady to drive him insane, gets mad when the apes make a decision he didn't like and curses all humanity with survival, then sits back and waits until the apes figure out tools and language, then allows the Angels to become baddies and lets them poke and prod the apes until he sends a clone of himself to live a confused life of struggle to become the blood sacrifice and undo the curse he created.
Cool story, bro.
I feel deep sympathy for the psychosis you all live under. I leave my hand extended hoping for you to grasp it and wake up to reality.
The idea that we don't know what the 'original sin' was is erroneous in my opinion. It's right there clear as day but we can't see it because we don't understand it. It was the eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. All sin in man emanates from this original event. The question then becomes, what is the tree of good and evil? It is basically the mind of Satan. Satan figured out how to use evil, or good if necessary, to promote his desire to ascend to the throne of God - to be like God. Adam acquired this knowledge and death became his reward, just as God said it would. We are Adam and Eve.
Great comment
Odd title, considering it’s Biblical.
Why do you simply accept something is true on the basis of it being biblical? Isn't the whole point of Apologetics to provide evidence for Christian belief outside the Bible? The Christian belief of the Bible says so therefore it must be true reminds me of this video: th-cam.com/video/itWNPh_5Jgc/w-d-xo.html
@@worldviewdetective9456
I was saying it was a rather unusual title as most Christians and even other religions have never disputed the existence of evil.
@@HeavnzMiHome The video isn't about the existence of evil. The question is whether demons (a supernatural being) exist.
@@worldviewdetective9456
You’ve probably noticed my other comments that most world religions recognize the reality of evil spirits.
@@HeavnzMiHome Okay fair enough, but most world religions (at least prior to the rise of Christianity) were polytheistic
I think demonic entities are the result of Genesis 6. Fallen angels & demons are NOT the same being.
So then where does he think aliens come from???
Angels are guests from future watch startrek
Is it just me or does the DR. look like Stephen King " ? Great topic ".
In a Culture characterised and dominated by a Secularism that positively denies Divinity, the Daemonic is denied en passant.
And yet, the major religious traditions bear witness to Daemons with rather more consistency and coherence than they bear witness to the Divine. In this, they even find coherent support in the testimony of those who have set out to commune with Daemons.
One could look into this by direct personal experience, but the major religious traditions all seem to caution one against such solicitation.
Argument against existence of Demons... Define a Demon. Show me a Demon.
Are Demons ethereal/spirit beings?
PLUS WE ARE NOT GOING TO HAVE A SINFULL NATURE OR A TEMPTER TO TEMP THAT SINFULL NATURE.
What is a "beautific" vision?
Beatific
If I were to bet I’d say it have something to do with the word beautiful
The beatific vision is a closeness to God, who is all that is good, true, and beautiful. Another name for Heaven, which is our ultimate home.
It was hilarious to see Cameron infect the phd guest with his wrong pronunciation.