Chassepot Needle Rifle
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 29 ก.ย. 2024
- The Chassepot was the French answer to the Dreyse needle rifle, and also the only other needlefire rifle to see major military service. It was adopted in 1866 and served as a primary French infantry rifle until being replaced by the 1874 Gras rifle, which was basically a conversion of the Chassepot to use self-contained brass cartridges. The concept of a need rifle is that of a breech loading rifle using paper cartridges. A primer was set in the base of the cartridge (inside the paper), and upon firing the needle-like firing pin would pierce the paper cartridge and detonate the primer and powder charge. The system always had trouble with sealing the breech, but was still a significant improvement over muzzleloading rifles.
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Im studying this rifle for my university degree. I have to do a 15 minute presentation on this rifle. Thank you for making the video it will be very helpful
+Anon San seriously in america you realy studying weapons im french and when i talk about my "love" about weapons everyone think im a psycopahte :D
What school are you studying at? I want to do this because I love firearms history.
"Deja vu, all over again" I did a presentation for a college speech class (1980 something) on the 1911 manual of arms, asked for formal permission to bring one to help illustrate and was refused. So I used pictures and hand puppetry🖖🏼👍🏻👊🏻 and still got an A. I hope you did too in these MORE Antigun days...
You have got to hold this with the massive bayonet, it is incredibly unwieldy and just huge, I'm much taller than the average man in 1866 yet the gun with a bayonet is taller than me.
Great video. Thanks v much
watching this I was thinking the bolt looked familiar, a bit of research and I found that the Dutch M71/78 Beaumont was based on it. which brings me to a question I have asked before. Do you ever plan on making a video about the Beaumont? it's not rare, but it is obscure.
Wow that looks nice
I'm kicking myself. Back in 2006, I ran into one of these rifles in Afghanistan (confiscated or recovered by a previous unit and kicking around our battalion TOC) and didn't know what it was. If I had done the paperwork, I could've brought it back :(
You get loads of these for sale at brochantes in France. Not too much money either.
This might be a stupid question but why not use a rubber case cartridge like those on the smith carbine instead of having a rubber obturator that have to be frequently replaced?
jesus...that dreyse cartridge...why would they put the primer so far forward?
so the paper version or none of them have rifling ? round bore?
hey Ian can you do video of ZB-47 en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZB-47, if you can get your hands on it.
munkSWE88 If I ever come across one, sure (don't hold your breath, though...).
Would the rifle had worked with brass obturaters instead of rubber?
strange that the French clearly lost the war of 1870/71 despite having the better "Zündnadelgewehr" then the Germans.
budwow The French lost even though they had the better rifle because of military strategy, organisation, and logistics. I also believe the Prussians had better artillery. But mainly it was because the Prussians had a permanent general staff, most militaries at the time only formed a general staff in a time of war. This allowed the Prussian general staff to train, develop strategy, and run war games before the advent of war. The Prussians also had all of their reserve troops assigned to local units, meaning a reserve unit could muster very quickly, a matter of days. The French had reserve units with reservists across the country, sometimes troops lived on the opposite side of the country as their unit, meaning troops had to travel days to get to their unit, slowing the mustering and deployment of reserve units. The Prussians also had a plan in place to place control of the railroads under command of the military in time of war and also had detailed plans of how to use the railroads to deploy troops the fastest to the battlefield with as little wasted effort as possible. The French military never took control of the railroads when war was declared, but often local commanders would commandeer trains to use without considering the overall logistic picture, compounded the logistical nightmare the French were in, not to mention delaying many of those reservists traveling to their unit. So while the French Army was larger than the combined Prussian and allied army, they were unable to deploy the bulk of their army in time to stop the German advance, while the Prussians and other German states were able to deploy something like 90% of their forces for the initial push into France. One thing to also mention is while most people mistakenly believe Prussia was the aggressor, it was France who declared war on Prussia, seeking to prevent the unification of Germany (although Bismarck pretty much used political maneuvering to force France into declaring war.)
Definitely read the name of this rifle as the Cheesepot Rifle
or Chase Pot
How dare you XD
It's amazing to note how the Chassepot evolved: after it turned into the Gras, it served for around 15 years before being turned into the 1886 Lebel. Going even further, the Lebel was later reworked and given a Mannlicher-style clip feed and became known as the Berthier.
I think the mosin Nagant bolt was inspired by the lebel so that too
Holy lugers batman! What wonderful background decorations they have there.
you should find a way to use one in a 2 gun match
The French truly are impressive with their firearm designs.
VicariousReality7 I don't believe I've ever seen that rifle before in my life. I assume it fires something larger than .50 BMG...
TV-94
Undeservedly bad reputation as far as the Chauchat goes.
People give the French way too much shit in favor of praising the Germans. It's been forgotten how france dominated military tactics and technology for centuries and spearheaded major innovations in those areas
Massa' Tobias
Agreed, poor French.
(insert name of gun you are reviewing here) "What the fuck is that?" (click on video) ~enjoying video~ "COOL!" lol. Thanks for the videos, man. Really love viewing them!!!
To be fair Dreyse started from zero, there was no needle rifle before he developed the entire concept over several decades. Of course other people would develop it further once it was established as a sound idea but man did the Prussians cut the Austrians to pieces in 1866 even though they knew perfectly about this gun.
The question is how much did Antoine Alphonse Chassepot know about the dryse model when he made his gun. From what I understand is the dryse was a state secret for the Prussians. They kept it and the design secret. I mean most people don’t hear about it till the Austro Prussian war in 1866. The Prussians used it in the second war against the Danish yet the dryse is not mentioned much even though the gun was used there. So it must be deduced that the chassepot was developed off the idea of using a needle to strike a primer similar to the dryse but not a copy of it.
*+brenden malloy* What I've heard is that dreyse try to sell his needle rifle to the french army, but they rejected it, and the chassepot did meet it's requirements.
But I'm not sure how true this is.
MultiMedia XL countries knew about the Dreyse from the day it was invented. Several other countries started developing their own breechloaders around that time
This rifle looks extremely beautiful to me, I love it.
IMO, your channel is the best youtube channel for fans of historic firearms. But boy - "last of the muskets"? I own both a Chassepot and a Dreyse M62 and - this is so wrong. There can be no doubt that the Dreyse is the first modern rifle - it's not only a "Breechloader", it's the first practical military rifle with a self contained cartridge, it was build for practicality, durability and simplicity, and in the end kick-started a new era of warfare. It also is at least among the first small caliber military rifles (projectile is 13,6mm - typical infantry calibers of the napoleonic era was around 18mm).
The Chassepot is a refined, but also flawed rifle that was developed over a long period. It's predecessors were the 1856 Arceline, the 1858 & 1862 Chassepot trial rifles, the 1862 Manceaux-Vieillard, and ultimately the model 1866.
The Dreyse is not gas sealed like the 1866 Chassepot, but the way it abstructs the gas from the shooter's face (despite popular belief) is ingenious - and the ingeniosity of it is one of the reasons why many attempts to copy the Dreyse failed. Also pure ingeniosity is how simply the shooter can exchange the needle. Despite it's unique paper wrapped bullet, 3'' groups at a 100 meters are not hard to archive. The Chassepot outshined the Dreyse in velocity, but the accuracy suffers because the hard rifling tends to deform the bullet.
But most importantly, it had 3 major flaws, which contributed a lot to France's crushing defeat:
1) it is not uncommon for the rubber seal on the Chassepot to swell up after multiple shots. The Dreyse did not have a rubber seal because of exactly that reason.
2) the thinner and longer Chassepot cartridge tends to beak quicker than the Dreyse cartridge. That can easily turn into a disadvantage on the battlefield.
BUT MOST IMPORTANTLY:
3) before the Chassepot/Dreyse, the average effective range of an infantry musket was 200 meters. The french soldiers had a rifle with a longer range - but didn't know how to capitalize on it. They were used to a different kind of tactics, and this is among the many reasons why the french army lost in 1870. Hell, even in world war 1 the french tried bajonette charges.
Last thing I want to point out is that the Dreyse comes in many different versions. An M41 doesn't feel the same as an M62, M65 Jaegerbuchse, a Wurttemberger M68 or M69. In the end, the Dreyse ended the muzzleloader-era in three weeks and defeated the Chassepot in 7 months.
Now: how the hell can you call the Dreyse, probably the most influencial rifle in history, "The last of the muskets"?
Donald J. Swamp he wasnt talking about functionality he just said that in terms of handling and weight the chassepot is more similar to modern rifles
I have a Chassepot saber bayonet right here. I use it to cut the nettles in the garden
This reminds me to look at the Swiss rifle around that time.
It was an 11round bolt action repeater, the vetterli. I find it quite incredible how Switzerland has had a length of advance in military technology.
Those two vids were great, thanks!
I wonder if there is a confirmed kill using the needle of a needle rifle...
Calling the Dreyse "last of the muskets" is probably your worst misconception thusfar. The Dreyse was the rifle that ended the era of the musket, since it was the first of a new kind. Very few rifles, if any, had such an impact on firearms development as the Dreyse.
After the prussians deafeated the austian-hungarians, every major european power immediately dropped their muskets for a differnt standard rifle - british Snider-Enfield in 67, italian Carcano needle gun in 67, russian Carle/Luck needle gun in 67 and Krnka in 68, austro-hungarian Wanzl- and Werndl in 67, bavarian Podewils-Lindner in 67 and Werder in 69, the swiss Amsler-Milbank of 66 and Vetterli of 69, and french Chassepot in 66. These were direct reaction to the outcome of that war, which clearly stated - the era of muskets is over. Many countries experimented with their own needle gun project - but simply didn't succeed. Like the british needle gun of 1850. The russians had problems with gas leakage. The Chassepot ultimately was a failure, not only because the french army was obliterated, but they even needed to import hundred thousands of foreign guns, like Remington Rolling Blocks and Winchesters - although the french had about the same amount of needle guns as the prussians (1,2 million vs 1,2 million). The myths you reiterate are partially anti-prussian propaganda from 1848-1866, and results of failed attempts of other nation to create needle guns. The Dreyse gun was a concept of the 1830s, from 1848 on prussian was constantly threatened with war - in that situation you don't change the caliber like recommended, like to 13,9mm or even 12mm in the Beck's adaptation. They even could have had the Mauser two years earlier, but the inevitable war with france delayed it.
In the end, it won 3 wars, all in a matter of months if not weeks, against two major military powers, and after 1871 you had a totally different approach to rifles europe-wide. If any rifle ever was a game changer, it was the Dreyse - the first bolt action rifle.
Nice do u know anything about the Belgian made 12g shotgun version as I have burt one and I am having trouble taking it apart
Forgotten? I thought this is the rifle that the Franco-Prussian War made famous.
If you know how to make your own gunpowder, melt lead for bullets, toy gun caps, then this would be a good survival gun
The chassepot rifle features in a novel I'm reading, so I was pleased to have a closer look at the real thing. In the novel it is also compared with the Dreyse.
Novel name?
Black powder rifles are the best.
+Francis Borek I don't know, the AK might wanna have a word with you.
I hope you meant best for their time. Beautiful & fun now...but am hanging onto my AR for the foreseeable future, when the Mk 1 plasma or antimatter rifle comes on sale at Bass Pro Shop;)))
Thanks Ian, I read a little about the Dreyse and the Chassepot, but this is the first time, I see them in such detail. Excellent video.
Do I need to go through an FFL to buy a needle rifle?
A remarkable gun for sure. Shame it's only real combat showing, in 1870-1871 was, less than stellar, albeit the reasons for that had little to do with the gun itself as I recall.
You can really see a resemblance to the mosin nagant receiver and bolt (3:45), considering the mosin nagant was developed just 20 or so years after this model, I wouldn't be surprised to learn there was some influence from this rifle.
druisteen can you provide a link of some sort to the story of that contract? I've googled Vatican chassepot and nagant in various forms but have been unable to find anything about that sort of deal. There is mention of mosin nagant rifles going to the vatican, however.
Très cool, merci!
Thank you so much for showing both the Dreyse rifle and Chassepot, I've always wondered how they worked
Something I want never knew why these were called needle guns until now.
I thought it was Cheesepot
A heads up, here! I can't say how safe it would be for the gun itself, but if I remember right, a combo of 20% toluene and 80% xylene is capable of melting/freeing up rubber!! :D
Would be cool to see the conversion too, in comparison.
nice. i found a bayonet for this type when i was a kid.
Whom knows where the French got that rubber from?
i have one of those rifles it is a beautiful firearm i just wish i had the bolt for it so that it could be fired. it is one of those things that I would like to get made (cant find anyone who does reproductions of it) but it is beautiful
Look a used one up on French Naturabuy. It´s this massive French firearms site very much like Gunbroker. Works similar too.
The Chassepot is classified a "class D" weapon in France rendering that all trade with guns and parts are permit free. Just pick up what you want and need.
As always, very interesting presentation, Ian.
Do you recall what this gun sold for?
I just recently bought a Chassepot.
I am starting to sort out the ammo issue now.
Have you sort it now?
@@alifr4088 Yes, I did get it to fire! It took a lot of experimenting to get a paper cartridge that works properly, but I have a load that fires most of the time. I haven't done much with it since, though.
@@straightshootingtalk6715 have you ever go hunt with it?
@@alifr4088 Yes I did!
After I managed to recreate a working firing paper cartridge for it, I went bear hunting!
(I live in western Canada, so we have lots of Black Bears here)
I did see one, and got a shot at it, but missed...
With the very curved trajectory of a heavy, slow moving black powder round, I must have shot just over top of it. I sighted the gun for 100 M, and the bear was about 60 or 70 M.
Oh well...
@@straightshootingtalk6715 nice!
Hello Ian,
I recently bought a Chassepot rifle with an unusual butt roundel. In a oval is the name NORD.
Have you any idea what this is.
Thankyou,
Mike.
I love your channel, educational, entertaining and very well presented. Keep up the good work .
I own the GRAS...,...exactly same but with a true brass case ammo...
Waifu Wars brought me here.
Hey Ian, could you do a Dutch Mannlicher?
I really love these videos. I'm interested in the historical development of firearms and this is the best channel for seeing all the oddball types that have come along. Great videos and wonderfully presented.
Dreyse is pronounced “Drey-zuh”.
Very interesting! Keep up the good work!
Their were actually 3 French state factories: Tulle, Chatellerault and St. Etienne. Amazing how well these converted, and are identical in appearance to the 11x59R 1874 Gras. See my channel for a closeup of an 1874/80 Gras.
All better got my fwf
I am not understanding the Chassepot cartridge construction. What was holding the primer?
+lefr33man Thanks.
nice ! omg ! i can i even own these in anti-gun germany ! holy shit !
is a blackpowder singleshot , means you can actually. you dont need a permit for it
***** i knoW, only need to get the permit for blackpowder now so i dont have to ask somebody at the range to make those cartridges :) that thing deffinetly will be bought with my next paycheck ! because who needs food anyway xD
well, you can found them in France for around 1200 euros
***** amazingly i found one in swizerland that is around 850 euros ! and it looks really good! already in contact with the seller !
the swiss isnt in the EU, so the paperwork will bee more pain in the Ass
Number 17, I'm so proud of myself!
If the needle is only poking through the primer in the back of the cartridge how is it considered needle fire? I can see how it is definitely needle like if you have the pin going through all the power and striking the primer under the bullet but if the primer is all the way rearward that's just like a standard round today. Non needle fire just don't puncture the primer.
Has this guy ever shown the single shot mauser used in the 1916 Easter Rising which was sent over by Imperial Germany?
This is where Dreyse fans would fuss over whether or not a Chassepot is really a needle gun. They both are to me.
The Dreyse has a longer needle to hit the primer at the base of the bullet.
I'm really enjoying these videos. Good job!
I got one from 1874
With the primer in the back of a paper cartridge isnt there some risk of accidently setting the whole thing of?
Just because of how low velocity thesse are i wonder what a Suppressed Dressie rifle would sound like
The bayonet attachment looks very weird!
Very informative. Nice
God I wish someone would make reproductions of these. I want one so bad.
shepard1707 look online and you might be able to get an original for not too much. I bought one for $245 plus shipping
The metal catridge is the invension of the MAUSER Brothers in 1868 but over a Contract with Samuel Norris (a reprensentativ a Remington) the invention cames very fast to the US.
JägerLP Flobert was the first to design a practical and successful metallic cartridge, in the mid 1840s. By 1868 they were widespread.
oh ok. ive had seen a documantion about the mauser brothers and they`ve said the 11mm Mauser of the mod.1871 was a revolutionare invension of the Mauser`s. but mabye it was wrong convertet the Docu was from (i blieve) england and was dubbed in german my country.
JägerLP The 1871 Mauser was an excellent rifle, just not the first of its kind.
Why would you need a needle so long if the primer is at the very back of the cartridge? And so thin (and fragile) for that matter, too, when it does not need to poke through the powder charge. Also, how would you dispose of the remaining bits of primer in this type of action? In a Dreyse needle rifle the primer, being in front of the powder charge, would be blown through the barrel along with the bullet, but not in this rifle, I'd presume.
Also I wonder what held the primer in place so the needle would actually deform the surface enough to detonate it instead of just pushing it deeper into the powder charge.
@@WalkaCrookedLine Due to the obturator the chamber actually seals. This creates a backdraft that basically "sucks" the remains clean out the barrel.
In fact the actual paper used by many does NOT burn but leaves the barrel in shreds. Me i´ve made them out of shrink sleeve,which takes much more of a beating,which also clears the barrel.
@@gainforlife5877 Thank you, I came looking for the answer to this very question
Tulic= tooleek
I made my "needle" out of a tungsten tig electrode, and the obturator is a turned down rubber stopper (from hardware store). I have shot a couple hundred rounds and both hold up well. I think the tungsten needle should last for a very long time (if not forever), the obturator should be good for another hundred or more rounds. The system works amazingly well.
Is sealing not a challenge on modern firearms? If not, why?
SecularStrategy Without going into too much detail, the main factor is that now we use brass cartridge cases. These 'flow' into the chamber and help seal in the pressure, as well as sealing the rear of the bolt face.
SporadicallySane So it's the cartridge expanding to self-seal? I would imagine that finer machining also plays a role.
SecularStrategy Brass cartridge cases expand into the chamber and does the sealing.
SecularStrategy Finer machining and much tighter tolerances do indeed play a role, however the brass cartridge case is the main differentiating factor behind ensuring a gas-tight seal when comparing modern firearms to these earlier breech loaders. In fact it is the main reason we use brass cases in the first place.
+trailduster6bt Thats why before you buy a Enfield you ALWAYS check the headspace. It is getting pretty tough to find fireable Enfields for a good price.
True - but there's no shooting video like an ian shooting video.