@@UnityMotorSportsGarage Not really a big deal, just wanted the correct info out there(I'm a bit OCD that way). I actually wish you were right though, that extra .035" would be a mile when we're talking stroker engines! That would allow an extra .070" of stroke 2 to 1 vs the deck height.
Not sure how much it matters, but the 400 Chevy block had some differences from the typical SBC, including larger diameter main bearings, 400’s were 2 bolt mains, and had Siamese bores with additional steam holes between the cylinders for the 4.125” bores. Biggest issue with making power with the small block Mopars, was the cylinder heads. A neglected build that might be of interest, would be a Mopar B-block 400, for the potential of the oversquare bore - stroke, and the cylinder head potential.
I learned early in my career that I could build a MoPar engine with relatively stock components and a basic static balance getting good hp with long engine life. When building Chevy’s though if built the same as a MoPar it’s lifespan was considerably shorter in many cases if it was not dynamically balanced it would often not survive a 500 mile race at speed. Chevy’s were also more susceptible to overheating problems than MoPar’s. I did not have as much of an opportunity to work with Ford to any great degree since I spent the vast majority of my racing career working for the same team.
Thank you for this! Just like you said, most guys end up with their nose in one family of blocks. Would love to see one on the 360 AMC, 350 Olds, and 351 Ford Cleveland.
I’d like to make a few comments on the 289/302 - 5.0 Ford blocks. First of all Ford was the only one of the three to properly size the block to the intended cubic inch range and use case. For example the 8.2” deck engines are almost perfectly sized in deck height and journal sizes for about a 300 cubic inch V8. Moving up the Cleveland was a performance engine at 9.2” deck with a 2.75” main perfect for its high performance inclinations. The 351 Windsor was taller still at 9.5” of deck height allowing for a very relaxed rod/stroke ratio and the 3” main served very well in its more utilitarian duties. Finally the 429/460 which is really just a giant 351 Windsor with canted valves specs out at 10.32” deck height which would suffice all the way to the 500” displacement they were planning to challenge Cadillac with. All the Fords have high camshaft placement and the camshafts are larger in diameter. The .875” lifter is not the largest of the three but certainly a decent step up from the Chevs. Those cylinder extensions hanging down that Andy pointed out are showing you that Ford moves the upper part of the crankcase up and this this puts the lower support closer to the most stressed area of the cylinder wall. This allows for better cylinder wall strength even though Fords are thin wall. If you look at the racing statistics from the golden era of racing (1960’s) the sbc and bbc and some of the Mopars were more successful at the drag strip where super heavy duty blocks came in handy when running exotic fuels or power adders. Ford on the other hand had far more success in road racing and rallying. The 450 pound 289 V8 which could approach 400 horsepower in race trim was a deadly weapon in cars like the Cobra the GT350 Mustang the TVR Griffin and the Sunbeam Tiger. It gave everyone 90% of the power of a 327 Chevy but with close to 100 pound weight saving right over the front wheels.
429/460 Fords are obviously big blocks Lima Not FE series . They're Far from being SIMILAR to small block Windsor FORD engine blocks! That's like Comparing APPLES to ORANGES ! . The video is about SMALL blocks ! Get a CLUE! .
@@jerryparks6123 maybe you misinterpreted the meaning of the words in my post. Did you see where I said the 385 series block is like a gigantic 351 Windsor? Think about the bare blocks because that’s what we’re talking about. Picture them next to each other on engine stands. Look at the architecture then get back to me.
One important thing that wasn't mentioned is the higher amount of nickel used in Chrysler blocks . This , along with the fact that the head bolts are further away from the bore than chevy blocks , which results in less bore distortion . The Mopar block also uses bigger main cap bolts . As good as the 318 block is , the 340 and 360 have slightly more beef in the main webbing . The 360 block is stronger in the bottom end due to the larger main bearings , and the main caps are beefier and the bolts have a larger spread . The larger mains make for a stronger crank , especially with stroker builds .
Nice comparison. Been a Mopar head for many moons, and built a couple LA engines. The best was a very streetable 420+ HP 360 back in the early 90's when that was not bad for an NA pump gas motor with excellent vacuum. It was my daily driver, and I sold it with over 50,000 miles on it (probably close to 100 of those were full-boogie laps at the drag strip). That being said, I never trash anyone else's favorite badge...they've all made jewels, and they've all made clunkers. Drive what ya' love!
Thank you gents! I really like the idea of chamfering the bottom edge of the cylinder bore to aid in airflow back into the cylinders as the piston goes up in the cylinders in the exhaust and compression strokes. I never considered airflow and pressures in the bottom end of the block. This makes me wonder what else I have not considered?
In a nitrous class at the Engine Masters Challenge we had a 360 mopar with only a 2 bolt main and no girdle and a cast crank produce 849hp and 748lbft. Then put in a truck and ran naturally aspirated for another 5000 miles without any problems.
Hot Rod or Car Craft's Junk Yard series of engine builds already built a 426 horsepower 318. It is most definitely an overlooked engine with much potential. I would not be surprised in the least to see a 1 hp per cid 318 although the cam is the hard part.
@@MP-pz9oe apples and oranges, 30+ years of design difference, ls don't have to deal with 2 barrel carburetors and distributors for example. Factory ls heads and intake flow way better in comparison and the cam in the chryslers are more mild.
@@MP-pz9oe "stock" is a hilariously stupid term. part for part, spec for spec, if a 5.2 magnum and 5.3 truck ls are built with the same cam and compression, the 318 actually has the same hp, but more tq.
One critical thing that was overlooked but definitely worthy of consideration is how much larger the distance between the mopar's crank centreline and cam centreline is. Mopar's design moves the hollow cam tunnel up and away from the most stressed part of the bottom end. The Crank saddles. You don't have to be an engineer to see that this adds an enormous amount of strength and rigidity where it counts most.
@@UnityMotorSportsGarage and that's not a small point, either. Mopar's LA design copied from the first gen Hemi, involving the odd angle, but a shorter pushrod will result but it means you can run H beams rather than I beams and a tall lobe cam for a lot of lift--otherwise you're running some crazy 1.8:1 rocker arm ratio on the valve springs.
@@albertgaspar627 they redesigned it from the Poly Head motor but kept the goofy 59° lifter angle. That's been the Achilles Heal of it since the rpms started going up. Bob Glidden cut out & fabricated a new lifter valley back in the day to 48°.. That ol' Indiana farm boy was AMAZING!
@@vincentenk4449 Yes he was! I read an interview with Bob in a Mopar magazine and the writer made a statement that was something like “in 1979, the 340 ‘carried’ you to the championship” and Bob let the guy know in a nice but direct way…. “You have no idea how much work we put into that motor….” lol
I love this kind of tech ! (especially when it includes Mopars).It brings back memories. Back around 1975 NASCAR mandated the use of small block engines in what is "Cup" today. When Maurice Petty built their first small block Mopar it had mostly Chevy internals !
I really enjoyed this video, it took me back to the late 1960s and 1970s. I used 350 Pontiac blocks, while my buddy used 350 Chevy blocks. The Pontiac had a camshaft end float keeper on the front of the block. The only thing holding the Chevy camshaft in was the timing chain itself. Also the Chevy camshafts tended to wear more as the block valley was solid over the camshaft. The Pontiac block valley was open in places, allowing more oil flowing over the camshaft. We used to remove the oil gallery core plugs, tap them and screw in threaded plugs. Crane Fireball camshafts and Rhoads Lifters, an early form of variable valve lift and timing. Oh happy days, many thanks again for the memories.
My dad had always told me that one reason they didn't have a lot of Mopar aftermarket was because the factory parts were so good to start with. This seems to kind of back that up some. Though I'm surprised there still isn't more all these years later. Go to Summit or Jegs and look up cylinder heads and it's comical. There are dozens of pages for the Chevy and barely a page for Mopar. Harder to build when you just can't buy parts.
Want to hear something funny and depressing? The valve guides had gone on my dad's '79 Silverado Big-10. Basic 4-bbl, 350, no smog engine. Chevy dealership wanted a lot of money to fix it up. Dodge dealership was so happy to get business that they undercut the Chevy dealership with a brand new Chevy engine install. The Chevy stuff is so cheap and common that a Dodge dealership can make profit. This was in '85 or '86 according to my dad.
@@PorscheRacer14 Lol, wow, that's something. I know I looked at the cost to rebuild the 350 in my 71 Vette just for fun and I could pretty much replace every part in the engine for the cost of just a camshaft for my Viper. Something is wrong when you can buy a whole rotating assembly cheaper than single parts.
@@Map71Vette it makes sense though. There's probably 3x more 350 chevy engine blocks used as gearhead coffee tables than the total number of Viper V10 engines ever produced.
At heat and high rpm on a continuous load, laps or stress of pulling, it's unreal of the stress on the lower part of the engine block, that's the reason the thicker/ heavier is better.
I'm just an average Mopar guy and I can tell you old Hemi's and Max Wedge stuff are the playground of guys with deeper pockets than most. I'll stick to my 3 318's and 2 440's.
with the price of SHP blocks being so low, it makes ZERO financial sense to build a stock block " high power engine" anything they're available for, unless there's a class rule.If the mopar block had siamesed bores, they'd be the king of the small blocks, especially if chrysler had developed the Poly heads, which were avaible in 1959 as the A engine, which became the LA engine later. The Poly heads just needed some port revisions, they would have been cleveland heads far earlier. the A engine in 1959, High cam distance, tall deck, splayed canted heads, 4.480 bore spacing. The A engine was turned into the LA engine to make it lighter and cheaper. What a shame, the Poly had all the right ingredients to make a ton of power.
You are right, the Poly had a lot of potential that was never developed. Top HP was a 290HP 318 in 1957. Next year the big block B engine came out and it became the performance engine with the 318 relegated to base V8 workhorse duty. And before that, was overshadowed by the Hemi. So the 318 potential was neglected in favor of the big brothers.
Someone at one time had a kit for the poly blocks so a Hemi head could be used on those if I remember years ago but if I remember there was a lot of machining that had to be done to the deck of the block to make it work. Now that I think of it should look around on TH-cam here to see if any of these engines are on here or if anyone has done any Dyno testing to see what kind of power they made . Not sure but I'm thinking they probably used the old 392 Hemi heads I would assume being the 426 Hemi head is quite a bit bigger in size than those first gen Hemi engines were .
I think the biggest advantage of the sbc wasn't that it was introduced earlier.....but it's interchangeability and versatility. You can pop out a 262 and bolt a 400 in it's place. The other 2 can't get to 400ci with factory parts which was a big advantage before you could open up a summit catalog and buy whatever you wanted. With that said...400sbc ftw
and just to stop that one guy...... the 400 doesnt overheat, crack the block ,ETC the 882 heads do crack.... but so does every 882 casting made . just drill the steam holes AT THE CORRECT ANGLES!!! not straight down...on some cheap 350 heads . . but ya... i F-HEN love my 400s big block torque.... small block size . love telling people its a factory 327 in my 68 impala...... a BIT cheat-y..... but they should have seen the harmonic balancer "slice" and knew something was up....... . REALLY cheat-y would be internally balancing a 400, using a 350 crank for a 377 high RPM motor with HUGE pistons and still a decent stroke for torque..... beats all 383s (at least for HP.....383s make torque, but not like a 400) 383 = poor mans 400 377 = rich mans 327 . anyway... as you can tell i love my 400s
I remember back in the late 60’s how popular the 327 Chevy was. Chevy guys raved about it all the time. But they were kinda discouraged when the small journal crank was replaced with the bigger journal crank. The loyalist stayed with the small journal 327. Small journal chevys 265,283 z/28 302 and 327 were great if you loved high high rpm. But the 350 Chevy pretty much replaced most of them unless you were loyal to the 327.
The 327s were awesome sounding in comparison. Short stroke-high rev. The 302 was made only for trans-Am racing, and had a 283 crank in a 327 block. Saw one run briefly at a show, and it was extremely radical.
If I were to build a chev engine it would be a 2-bolt 327 around the 400 HP mark. they just seem to run nicer. They built a 4- bolt 327 on the 350 block, but a stock car driver I know told me they tend to overheat with extended runs at high RPM. Told me I would be better off beefing up the bottom end of a 2-bolt. I am not reaching for big numbers so any of these blocks would be good stock, but better safe than sorry. As an aside, the 307 was built on the 350 block, and in my opinion were grossly underrated. Exceptionaly tough, good power, decent gas milage It replaced the 283, so my guess is people didn't like it just for that reason.
Drinking this in gentlemen. Can't wait to see both your talents loosed onto these plentiful 318s. Back in the 70s we could care less about aftermarket support, as we had Direct Connection as close as our nearest Plymouth or Dodge dealer. We used to get the latest catalog religiously each year. The high compression engines were already the scourge of the tracks and streets back then anyway. 340s in light weight A-bodies could pretty much clean the streets back then. If that didn't do it, the 383s, 440s and 440 six packs took care of the rest, with the Hemi kept back as the ace in the hole. Truthfully it was no competition, back then, before modified rear suspensions for GMs. As crude as the super stock springs and factory pinion snubbers were, they hooked up much better than the factory GMs did stock. We never really warmed up the 318s, because 340s were plentiful. Later when they got scarcer and we started to understand the torque advantages and potential of 360s, it cost the same to build a 360, as it did a 318. Gotta say I'm very interested in this 318 build. Great video👍 Malcolm Ottawa Valley
Another big reason Chevrolet small blocks got more popular was because of their rear sump oil pan set-up. Was a whole lot better in drag race situations than the Ford and Dodge center sumps were.
I mean to be fair, the chrysler engine stated as an "a" engine in the 50's with the 315 poly and then 318 poly. Then the la came out. La being "light a" it was revamped a little to make the magnum. There's magnum blocks running around making 1600 hp. Reliable? No. Will the block get destroyed if the rotating assembly stays together, also no on a seasoned block.
Awesome video. I have always loved all small blocks and have been around them most of my life but my favorite will always be the original 351 Cleveland since I grew up around Bob Glidden and what he did with it in pro stock was just amazing I love its power potential with those huge heads that still flow just as well as most of the after market heads. I have had a few built Cleveland as well as 350 and 400 Chevy's and the cleveland's performance vs the others is just unreal.
Somewhat related as to blocks, I remember reading some years ago about the details of Chrysler's experiments with a smallblock PS car(Yellow Duster) full tube frame to compete with Grumpy Jenkin's tube frame Vega. Chevy had a lot of special parts that Chrysler didn't at the time(circa 1972) and Chrysler was using their TA blocks. They actually were making enough power to split the blocks in testing. The factory wasn't willing to spend the $ to cast new sturdier blocks that could handle the power level so the whole project got scrapped. I've collected quite a few photos of the car, the engines and the whole build/testing process.
well, jenkins cheated with the vega, as no vega ever came with a v8 stock. mopar came back with a hemi colt and beat him, so the NHRA punished mopar again and again after chevy whined.
Kinda says a lot about the Chevy that it came 7-9 years before the others and not only lasted longer but also achieved the most success and largest displacement. It overall has very few flaws.
as someone that ran small block fords stock, i admired the 327 chevy engine because it was a really good street machine, all the makes had good engines if you put the work into them and ithingk the boss engines or clevland engines from ford were probably the most versatile for making power at the time since no one was using turbos etc like today
The LA block has its roots farther back than the SBC, it's based on the 1954 hemi block. It's also a 9.6+ deck height. The main bearing bolts on the 318 are huge compared to those others. Weight don't really matter if it's in the wrong places so you can't read too much into that and as far as that is concerned that Chevy is an uncommon siamese bore that is heavier than the much more common 4 inch bore Chevy block. Another thing worth mentioned is the 318 and 360 magnum blocks that are 15lbs heavier and it's in important places.
Great video guys! I’m curious to hear yours and David’s opinion on the Chrysler heads, that the valves open into the widest part of the bore, and that the spark plug is located more toward the center of the chamber for a wedge. I always heard that these are good features but, we’ll see. Really looking forward to this series!
@@JoakimVike I believe that's only on the pre-Magnum roller-cam heads and only because that particular exhaust port was better than average and the intake was worse. Magnum heads are far better and clean up quite easily compared to older LA heads.
I had a machinist at the store I worked for that was cussing up,a storm about how long it was taking to bore out an International Block. I asked why he was so mad he said it was taking all day, and he could bore at least 3 SBC’s in that amount time. I asked why that was, and he said they were made of softer iron. After doing some research the only the factory performance engines got a decent amount of nickel, while engines like IHC, Pontiac and AMzC used high nickel casting for all their blocks. Fords used the same low content block in their Windsor series angina. The only exception to that being thenBoss 302. Their performance related FEs had the good stuff too. As for engine durability, going beyond just the blocks, I’ve seen all kinds of failures. Poor rebuild conditions and methods took out a lot of them. But the strangest thing I’ve ever seen was when I was working for a shop the rebuilt customers engines and R&R’d them. One day a dodge van pulled up running rough as hell. When we tore it down everyone was astonished to see what failed. Somehow the center main journal, which carried the thrust bearing in the block, was broke in half. But because it had broken at an angle, one half pushed the other around when the fron try,infers fired and vice versa, remember this engine brought the customer to the shop. Strange stuff, but true! Happy Building guys!
Not only the time frame of when the engine design was put into place, but you also have to keep in mind that when Ford went OHV it did so with the Y-block which really didn't set the word on fire. Not beating up the Y-block ,but it just didn't come out of the gate swinging for the fences. That put a slightly sour taste in performance minded drivers. Chrysler had the hemi but it was expensive to produce and not in the league with the small block chevy. Car companies are only as good as their previous design. Win on Sunday sell on Monday. Once you lose your customer it takes a lot to win them back.
Gonna have to disagree. the sbc is an excellent platform, but the early gen 1 hemi was literally worlds ahead in terms of power potential... like the two are not even close. A factory 331ci hemi cylinder head can be ported to flow well over 300cfm. That's impressive numbers by today's standards...from a 1955 casting. In 2017 a 331 based hemi got runner-up behind John kaase in engine masters. It made 730hp with a class limit of 6500rpm and 100 octane fuel. Again. Factory block and cylinder head castings. 😮 One thing few people talk about is mopar's larger lifter bores which have something around 19% more contact patch than a sbc lifter. Allowing for a much more aggressive lobe. But yes the downfall of the early hemi is they were VERY expensive, ridiculously heavy, and they made extremely few of them. So they were never going to be a viable option for 99% of racers, or gain support from the aftermarket world But they actually hold up extremely well against modern designs in terms of all-out power potential.
@@jacksonjdr94 there is a reason why the early Hemi became the dominant engine in Top Fuel! They were BEEFY and made way more power vs the other engine platforms.. Andy
@@UnityMotorSportsGarage absolutely, but the 2nd gen 426 Hemi gets all the glory which is well deserved as it was designed for competition and has dominated in drag racing for decades. But the much less coveted first gen hemi (331, 354, 392) is also full of potential and often overlooked due to its age and relatively tame stock configuration. I am completely in love with the 318 project. But it also crosses my mind that if you guys ever get the opportunity to do the same kind of blueprinted build with a 331 hemi using mostly stock parts... these seem to be the most common and have the best cylinder head. I'd bet it could outperform the 318 LA by a pretty wide margin. Perhaps 100hp?
The high nickel Chevy blocks were mostly reserved for high performance big blocks, but high nickel Chevy small blocks were made for special performance, over the counter blocks and they were all 4 bolt main cap blocks. Pontiac and Chevy didn't use GM's high nickel iron for many of their blocks, but Olds and Buick did use GM's high nickel cast iron for their standard blocks.
The MoPar small block actually started life in 1956 in the Plymouth as a 277 ci, then 303 0r 301, then 318, and one year only as a 326 in a Dodge. The LA head was designed as a replacement for the poly head in 64 so that the engine could be fitted into the A body MoPars and to reduce manufacturing costs. That is the reason for the odd pushrod angularity at the lifter, the lifter bores were left in the old poly position. The poly engine had a valve layout similar to the chevy 396, 454 engines. The poly 318 & the LA 318 blocks are almost identical except for some oiling holes. MoPar small block engines that come out of trucks are made of high nickel iron and are very durable. Rod/ stroke ratio on the little 318 & the 340 has an advantage also. If you think the main web is thick on the little 318 you should see the main webs on a 340 TA block. A local shop has one of them with the 4 bolt splayed main caps. I can't understand why so many people are surprised about the potential of 318. The 340 is nothing more than an over bored 318. Same stroke, same crankshaft dimensions just a larger bore & better heads. On the Ford 5.0, one downfall is the extreme rod angularity when the crank pin is in the 90 deg position. It places a great deal of side pressure on the cylinder block at that position. The chevy has a big advantage because there are so many of them and the variety of go-fast stuff that is available. Good video & honest evaluations of the 3 designs.
They should have stuck with the poly head and developed it further. I find it funny that the 4.7l dodge the heads are the same design. Those engines make good power just timing chian and oiling problems.
@@racecitypatriot66 I had 2 vehicles with that 318 poly engine & they both performed quite well. Canada continued to make vehicles with them well after we dropped the engine. They were used extensively in industrial & marine engines also. It was a solid design. I have a rebuilt poly long block in my shop now that I have for sale on Craigslist. Chrysler claimed that they had 2 reasons for it's demise: Expensive manufacturing costs & the need to make an engine that was narrow enough to fit in their A bodies and both make sense.
@@i-am-that-what-i-am All engines considered to be A engines were the ones with the distributor in the rear of the engine. All the gen 1 hemis, the 55 plymouth, 55 thru 57 Dodge poly (different than the poly engines that started with the 56 Plymouth poly), and all the 273 thru 360 engines were A engines. I have heard that LA stands for either late A or light A. Poly is short for polysphere. All B blocks have the distributor in the front. That oddball poly that was used one year in the Plymouth & 3 or 4 years in the Dodge came is sizes 270, 315, & 325 ci displacement and the hemi heads from the same size engines would fit on the poly block. Been there done that so I know it can be done. Engine sizes for the poly that morphed into the 318 poly were 277, 301, 318, and 326. 326 was a 1 or 2 year only in Dodge.
Im a Chevrolet man through and through. I bleed Chevrolet orange. But the truth is. Im also a small block guy and would love to play around with some small block ford and small block Chrysler stuff. I have a LA that’s been setting for a few years to the side I’ve been wanting to fool with
Ford’s further problem was they built so many engine families while Chevrolet stuck with one basic and a couple of big block derivatives for so long over the years. At the end of the production run, Ford was back to making performance packages around engines that weren’t particularly developed with performance in mind - ie the 302 and 351W. The 302 briefly had a 4V option in 68, the 351W in 69; while the Cleveland designs and derivatives were up and coming until emissions knocked them down. Wasn’t until the early 80s that performance started really coming of age for the small block Fords. Even the K-code 289 had small valves, and that it was a formidable race motor in endurance racing is a testament to the builders and teams. Didn’t realize the little Ford was so light and the Chevy so heavy.
Remember as a kid my neighbor had a gigantic 38 foot RV popped the dog house one day and there was a tiny 318 under there with almost 2 feet clearance on all sides. Much respect, you will never hear me bad mouth a 318!
back in the late seventies when i started playing mechanic,i was told them numbers refer to tin and nickel content,i have seen in my day,020\020-010/020-and just a 010 and a 020 in the chain area.and i have only seen one 020\020 on a block. i also have 2 400 4 bolt blocks and one 2 bolt block. one 400 4 bolt is still original bore,the others have been bored,good luck on the 318 build,i was once a mopar man,but parts was rare and expensive then and now
And if you’ve played with enough you will also see 014/024. No difference. There all core mold numbers. There is no measurable nickel and absolutely no tin at all in a cast grey iron block period
@@brandonbell3089 well i at the time made sense to me only being a teenager,never gave it much more thought and wasnt to interested in them numbers any more,but as for measurable amounts 1 percent and 2 percent wouldnt be much on a 172 pound block any way
Best part of the sbm is the rear of the lifter valley… No chance in hell it’ll hold oil like the other two. Oil drain back from lifter valley is like a 4 lane hwy lol. Only downside is it’s thinner cylinder walls… I have a 390 ci 4” crank .030 over bore sbm. In a 3800 lb Dakota with me, ran a 12.58 at 107
That was really interesting, I didn't realize the 318 had floating pins, thought that was just a 340 thing.I have a SB Chev in the garage because it was cheap to put decent aftermarket heads on and the chassis has lots of aftermarket support, but I claim no allegiance to Chev. I'm interested in all brands, beyond the Big 3. As far as a swap goes, the SB Ford is often chosen for its front mount distributor and narrow width from the short deck. A BB Chev can be an enviable power maker but at what weight penalty? Looking forward to more of your collective efforts!
same. im a mopar nut through and through, but i bought a 78 trans am a couple years ago, and now have a vortec 350 to put in it. always loved trans ams, and toyed with putting a big block mopar in it, but decide sbc for ease and cost.
The stock 8.2 deck Ford is definitely not limited to 500hp, a stock bottom end 302 isn't even maxed at 500hp. Go check out Miss Midnight Mavericks channel if you dont believe me, or just search up Ugly Kid Racing Engines. Miss Midnight and Tony are at 600hp on a Procharger/nitrous setup on a completely stock bottom end.
I would like to see y’all put Davids header theory in this test to compare against off the shelf headers . It has the same firing order and would be cool to see on a small block.
Something else I've heard in the past is that Chevrolet and Ford allow aftermarket freedom whereas Mopar held a requirement for all aftermarket parts to be tested and approved by Mopar, thus increasing the price of the parts...which I would say could definitely reduce the amount of available aftermarket parts as well as detour aftermarket companies from wanting to participate.
A close friend of mine just passed on. He ran an engine service, including internal balancing. I worked for him nearly 50 years ago. He was very pragmatic, assessing short blocks by the following. Is it a structurally sound configuration? Is the oiling system adequate? Is the rod length to stroke ratio suitable for the target RPM range you are wanting? RPM suitability can be measured in feet per second of piston speed. A ton more comes into play. The heads and cam profile are a study in volumetric efficiency for mass flow. Bottom line, none are perfect, just do the engineering. We can all learn from people like Vizard, Bruce Crower, Ricard Bowman (of Speed-O-Motive fame) Ed Pink, Don Bass, Donovan, Keith Black, etc. Thank you to them all. You gave us a gift!
Finally an explanation why chevy has been the most popular aftermarket engine that makes sense. What you said makes way more sense than uncle Tony's explanation.
I agree totally. Tony's explanation regarding the oil pan makes some sense, but I don't think it had that much to do with the popularity of the Chevy SB. A 9 year head start, plus just the sheer volume of Chevys vs. Mopar makes way more sense. Also, I honestly don't remember the oil pan being an issue on the sb Mopar and the only time I saw people spinning main bearings on a big block is when they were poorly maintained.
I'd love to see you do a similar build with a 4v Cleveland engine like your doing with Tony's 318 build to see how much power U can get out of it using stock parts
The reason they are doing a 318 is because nobody thinks ot can make power 351 Cleveland was designed to make power,how much and how many 351c blocks can you find in a junkyard for a couple hundred.351c build belongs on Stacie David's channel where money is no object
Just swapped out a guys 1971 Satellite 318. Replaced his 318 with a rebuilt 318. I now have a 71 318 I am going to freshen up. I have some 340 parts hear to bolt on it. Don’t know what I will do with it. But just looking at it on the engine stand in the corner of my garage makes me smile.
The first engine I worked on was an International "Blue Diamond". Old stuff and not common, so after that it's just whatever interests me, and frankly, what has parts available in the middle of nowhere Canada. I love my old Mopar but parts are a pain. When it came to getting a new car to tinker with, I really wanted a 396 Challenger Scat Pack but Dodge had tuning locked down and the aftermarket wasn't here with parts so I went with the Mustang. I've had a BMW, Porsches, Chevys, Cat, Massey, Cummins, Case. Doesn't matter to me, as long as it does the job I need it to do. That said, the older I get, the more I start tinkering with older stuff around the farm. I like the comparison of the blocks. From a race builders perspective, if given a blank slate and $10k to play with, which block or series of design blocks do you normally go with?
Can you and DV do a modernized comparison with the LS, 3gen hemi ,and Fords Triton or Coyote blocks? Just wondering if it could be a talking piece. Nevertheless I absolutely love the nuggets of information and the many years of knowledge being put out on video for us modern high performance guys to fall back on. Thank you for your guys insight, always appreciated.
That would be pretty cool. I think that it would be a very different comparison though. Part of what makes thus video so interesting is that the three different small blocks have very similar/comparable architecture and dimensions. Which makes it easy to speculate on the strength limitations of each The LS, G3 hemi and Coyote are conceptually nothing alike. The LS is an alloy cam-in-block engine The Hemi is a cast iron cam-in-block engine The Coyote is an alloy block with overhead cams. They really couldn't be more different.
The one thing these older pushrod motors have over many newer V8's is that hey are narrower. Makes swapping into smaller car easier...no cutting of the car to fit I have a mild build 302 in my datsun.....fit easily in place of the original 4 cylinder
Mopar small blocks are a really good engine, but like it was said, it started life a lot later than the Chevy SB, and of course, the sheer volume of Chevy vs. Mopar gave it a huge advantage as far as aftermarket development. That said, I have been running Mopar SBs for over 40 years and I love em and always will. I WAS quite surprised that the Mopar SB is actually lighter than the Chevy, especially since it was derived from the old Poly head A engine.
I was shocked as well! My first car was a '70 Duster with a 340 I built when I was a teenager.. I have always had a love for the LA Mopar! Thanks for watching Andy
Poly A engine debuted the same year as Chevrolet, 1955. The Poly was stronger, had a better head design and made more power but was bulky and heavy. It was overshadowed by big brother Chrysler Hemi and later the B and RB big blocks, which were nearly the same size in bulk and weight but up to 100CU IN more displacement. In 1957 Chevy was popping their buttons over their 283HP 283 with fuel injection, Plymouth Fury had a 290HP 318 with 2 4 barrel carburetors that could beat the Chev easily. Next year Plymouth had the big B engine while Chevy got the 348 which was slower than a good 283. In other words Chevy leaned on the small block performance because that is all they had.
The other factor, not mentioned is cost, as a mopar guy, I can tell you it costs a lot more to build a mopar engine. The availability of SB Chevy parts is also much greater.
When I was younger I always heard that Chrysler was weird about patents and the aftermarket. I don't know if that's true or not, but if so it could also have influenced popularity/availability of parts. But I think your idea about early availability makes good sense
Another thing that should be addressed is the mulitple variations of SBF blocks, even well into the 5.0 era. Mexican blocks, the B50, immortal A4, etc. That all in addition to 351W, 351C. The Ford 5.0 blocks are also noted as being high nickle content, not strong but very durable for long-term wear.
Also the thickwall cast 302 and 351 Cleveland Australian blocks, that incidently were less prone to Web cracks in cold temps. Yes you heard correctly 302 Cu 5 liter Cleveland's were manufactured by Ford Australia, with 53 cc combustion chambered 2 v heads, bolted on to a 351 made a huge comp increase. The Cleveland 351 was modified to a 302 in order to only have one block for V8 production dropping the imported Windsor 289 302 and 351 and allowing a smaller capacity V8 as well as the 351. 351 Cleveland HO engines were fitted to hi po Australian Ford Falcons making them at the time the fastest 4 door production cars on the planet, 145 mph I believe!
I learned early on that nothing on a Ford interchanges, with another Ford. Other than a "V-Belt", no Manifolds, Trans, Mounts, Water pump fit another, Strange.
@@UnityMotorSportsGarage In the early 80's, we had 10-11 year old cars & full sized Ford needed a T,C&G. Every bolt was a different length, size or both. Half of my tool box on the bench to do one job!
Great video guys! Sounds like David may convert to Mopar soon! 😂 But really, I know the blocks and designs all have their strengths. Thanks for sharing. I learned something today
keep in mind, the LA engines are based off of the poly v-8s of the fifties (1956 I believe) and even the early hemis. Before you go hatin, the 350 vortec is based off of the 1955 265 v-8 though not all of the parts will interchange. If you ever look at the lifter angle of a 318 that is why they are that way, ie. to accommodate the poly heads and even the early hemi heads. Many of the parts of the LA engine will interchange with the poly.
@@moparnut6286 I second that. Although I'm not sure about the mopar block bring soft. I've heard they had a high nickel content which is supposed to be good for strength. However as much as I love mopar, they were always very good at finding corners to cut. 😄 There's only one way to find out for sure!
@@jacksonjdr94 well I remember an article years back that did a Rockwell test and the blocks were a little softer and 440 source did test some big blocks and found that after 75 they are just a little softer than pre 75 but this maybe a sweet spot of ductibilty that may help them absorb stress and not break?... For sure the mains webbing got thicker on the later big block mopars making their bottom ends more stable... Making the 400s very strong.
@@moparnut6286 very interesting. Personally I would be interested in testing the difference between an LA and a magnum in terms of metallurgy. On visual inspection, both castings seem to be quite similar in terms of having meat where it's needed. I have heard people say magnum blocks aren't as strong as the LA. But also seen videos of 750whp turbocharged pickups running unmodified 5.9 magnum blocks. As usual, there's lots of talk and no testing/proof anywhere. 😆
I like them all. But Chevrolet has less shortcomings than the others. That same thing applies to GM ignition systems compared to the others aswell as GM transmissions compared to the others
Dunno where you get the idea that the chevy block has less shortcomings . The Mopar blocks have a higher content of nickel . The taller deck height allowed them to use 6.123 inch rods from the factory , compared to the custom 6 in. " long " rods that chevy guys have to buy . The head bolts are also further from the bore than in the chevy , which results in less bore distortion . The mopar also has larger lifters and wider cam lobes than the chevy . That , combined with harder cams means that the Mopars didn't suffer from cam wear like the chevies did . The Mopar also uses 18 degree valve angles compared to 23 for the chevy . And chrysler's shaft mounted rocker system is more stable than the ball stud type used on the chevy . A ball stud setup allows the rocker arm to move around , which alters valve lift .
@@HowardJrFord factory shaft mount style rockers limit camshaft selections on Chrysler small blocks/ pushrod angle on the small block Chrysler is terrible/ the open lifter valley is structurally weaker/ only available in 2 bolt mains on a small block Chrysler etc
@@jcnpresser I agree. This is a 550 lb engine with the new aftermarket block and Edelbrock heads at 505 ci that made 853 hp NA. I have built 390 stock blocks that made just at 600 hp and it is still holding together. If you know what to address and improve it is as light as a 351W and though the W has many different heads available, the FE design from the factory when built for it is “Born to Run “
The deal with the small block Chevy is they were the only manufacturer with a 400 CID small block. They lobbied the racing sanctioning bodies to restrict CID to 410. This gave them a huge advantage. This cemented their future as a dominant engine. Before this, the big block Mopars were very competitive on the dirt. At least that’s how I see it.
The SB Chevy has other advantages that cannot be ignored. 5 head bolts per cylinder, equal spaced intake ports, priority main oiling, can be gear driven and the oil pump is in the back etc ..
Good video, but I think a SBF with a 9.5” deck would’ve been a more apples to apples comparison. They are capable of handling much more power than an 8.2” deck. Almost double.
You are forgetting the poly 318 though not an la it's dimensions are the same except for some water ports. Heads are only major departure . I have used many poly blocks with plugs in water for big power builds
010/020 was just a casting core ID. You only started seeing it when the 010 4" bore block casting came out about 1970. Chevy did what every other manufacturer did to get the most out of casting fixtures. 010 was 4" bore casting (350) and 020 was 3.875 casting (307). If you had a set of 350 cores for cylinders you can substitute valley and front cores with 307 ones to keep the casting process moving along. I've seen 307 blocks with reversed numbers. Ford notoriously did this with FE series engines... this is why you can see almost any displacement FE with a 352 on the front. Mopar would just add a -+ number on side to let the foundry know how many "repairs" were done to the cores. If anyone thinks Chevy would actually make special alloys for different blocks and stop casting production to run these special blocks should really think about what that would entail. And variations in block hardness or machinability is because of the inaccurate way they do thing at a foundry. Just remember a good part of the iron is recycled scrap and flash.
@@UnityMotorSportsGarage You sure do. If you ever come out to race this year, have a shortblock, sitting for the last 35 years, I would give you.. I almost wanted to put heads on it and see what happens with fire up...
Sbf in stock form isn’t an option imo. Want to build up the SBC ? Long rod? 18 degree heads? The Mopar already has them. Go forged piston, add boost, and it’s ready to make 6-800hp all day.
The 351 Windsor is a major player.. I have built many high hp Windsors that have lived way beyond expectations.. The LA Mopar is the most underrated in my opinion Andy
I have no preference of brand myself but found myself only able to afford the small block chevy when i was in the army in Hawai'i although all of my friends ran big block mopars. I did put a challenger 8 3/4 in my camaro after breaking the 10 bolt. My 350 was only 3/10ths behind those build 440 mopars with mostly stock parts. I worked with small block fords in high school but the aftermarket support for sbc has been what has kept me hotrodding on my tight budget.
The big three produced some of the stoutest engines in the world regardless of how much knowledge or money you threw at them they always delivered. SAE ❤️
The LA Chrysler derives from the A block Plymouth, which started in 1956. The only differences between the LA and A blocks themselves are some steam holes, oil return, and pushrod notches in the valley (the A block, aka, "Poly" engines) for the polyspheric valve arrangement. You can mod poly heads to go on LA blocks, and LA heads to go on A blocks because they are so close to the same. LA being a lighter casting of the A. Deck height for A & LA is 9.6", but often as low as 9.58". Bore centers are 4.46".
Pumps are pumps......the Mopar probably has the best rod ratio stock with heads that are ok, the Ford Windsor is the lightest with plenty of support, the Chevy is most common from meat to potatoes. The best Ford small block though is the Cleveland. I know it needs oiling mods but the heads flow like crazy from 2V to 4V. The Aussies know them well, and they've made 1000hp NA combos that are streetable
Agreed, I'm australian and my early years we were lucky enough to have access to clevelands and they were my weapon of choice. But I'm older now and have no brand loyalty. Me and my circle of friends have owned examples of most of the local v8,s available and they all have good points and bad points. But the modern aftermarket has answers to all the problems.
@@watsisbuttndo829 I became a fan of the Cleveland because of the Pantera and the 71-73 Mach I Mustangs ( and Mad Max and the original Gone in 60 Seconds ). The 351C is a revelation, nothing runs like them.
@@bigboreracing356 not disagreeing they didn't rule the streets on numbers sold ,the small block chev had been on the radar over a decade before the cleveland turned up and then smog laws neutered it almost immediately. SBC has uncountable development hours on it and huge aftermarket. No argument that its a good unit. Disagree entirely that cleveland is a turd. And in fact will go another step further and state that the ford 400 is a frikkin diamond if you care enough to scrape off the factory layer of shite.
I've built a handful of S.B. Mopars. I think they make great street strip engines up to about 550 H.P. After that your looking at W style heads and valve train which are insanely expensive compared to the Chevy and Ford race stuff.
There are a few 408 small block Mopars here on youtube making well over 600hp without the W2 stuff . AFR now makes heads for them that flow 310CFM right out of the box .
Just found you guys Im a Chrysler guy. Love the comparisons. You guys taught me alot from just this video!! Thank you I Ill be loyal from here on out! From Ohio
Sorry Andy but the factory spec for a sbc deck height is 9.025" not 9.060" like you said twice in the video.
You are absolutely correct! I don't know what I was thinking when I said that.. I have pinned your comment! Thanks for watching and correcting me
@@UnityMotorSportsGarage
Not really a big deal, just wanted the correct info out there(I'm a bit OCD that way). I actually wish you were right though, that extra .035" would be a mile when we're talking stroker engines! That would allow an extra .070" of stroke 2 to 1 vs the deck height.
@@itseithergonnaworkoritaint7852 I'm glad you pointed it out.. I know that but apparently my brain and mouth coordination was off! 😂
@@UnityMotorSportsGarage My mother in law has the same issue regularly...
Not sure how much it matters, but the 400 Chevy block had some differences from the typical SBC, including larger diameter main bearings, 400’s were 2 bolt mains, and had Siamese bores with additional steam holes between the cylinders for the 4.125” bores.
Biggest issue with making power with the small block Mopars, was the cylinder heads.
A neglected build that might be of interest, would be a Mopar B-block 400, for the potential of the oversquare bore - stroke, and the cylinder head potential.
I learned early in my career that I could build a MoPar engine with relatively stock components and a basic static balance getting good hp with long engine life. When building Chevy’s though if built the same as a MoPar it’s lifespan was considerably shorter in many cases if it was not dynamically balanced it would often not survive a 500 mile race at speed. Chevy’s were also more susceptible to overheating problems than MoPar’s. I did not have as much of an opportunity to work with Ford to any great degree since I spent the vast majority of my racing career working for the same team.
Thank you for this! Just like you said, most guys end up with their nose in one family of blocks. Would love to see one on the 360 AMC, 350 Olds, and 351 Ford Cleveland.
knew a 1969 amc javelin 390 that ran 13.20
I’d like to make a few comments on the 289/302 - 5.0 Ford blocks.
First of all Ford was the only one of the three to properly size the block to the intended cubic inch range and use case.
For example the 8.2” deck engines are almost perfectly sized in deck height and journal sizes for about a 300 cubic inch V8.
Moving up the Cleveland was a performance engine at 9.2” deck with a 2.75” main perfect for its high performance inclinations.
The 351 Windsor was taller still at 9.5” of deck height allowing for a very relaxed rod/stroke ratio and the 3” main served very well in its more utilitarian duties.
Finally the 429/460 which is really just a giant 351 Windsor with canted valves specs out at 10.32” deck height which would suffice all the way to the 500” displacement they were planning to challenge Cadillac with.
All the Fords have high camshaft placement and the camshafts are larger in diameter. The .875” lifter is not the largest of the three but certainly a decent step up from the Chevs.
Those cylinder extensions hanging down that Andy pointed out are showing you that Ford moves the upper part of the crankcase up and this this puts the lower support closer to the most stressed area of the cylinder wall. This allows for better cylinder wall strength even though Fords are thin wall.
If you look at the racing statistics from the golden era of racing (1960’s) the sbc and bbc and some of the Mopars were more successful at the drag strip where super heavy duty blocks came in handy when running exotic fuels or power adders.
Ford on the other hand had far more success in road racing and rallying.
The 450 pound 289 V8 which could approach 400 horsepower in race trim was a deadly weapon in cars like the Cobra the GT350 Mustang the TVR Griffin and the Sunbeam Tiger.
It gave everyone 90% of the power of a 327 Chevy but with close to 100 pound weight saving right over the front wheels.
429/460 Fords are obviously big blocks Lima Not FE series . They're Far from being SIMILAR to small block Windsor FORD engine blocks! That's like Comparing APPLES to ORANGES ! . The video is about SMALL blocks ! Get a CLUE! .
@@jerryparks6123 maybe you misinterpreted the meaning of the words in my post.
Did you see where I said the 385 series block is like a gigantic 351 Windsor? Think about the bare blocks because that’s what we’re talking about. Picture them next to each other on engine stands. Look at the architecture then get back to me.
One important thing that wasn't mentioned is the higher amount of nickel used in Chrysler blocks . This , along with the fact that the head bolts are further away from the bore than chevy blocks , which results in less bore distortion . The Mopar block also uses bigger main cap bolts . As good as the 318 block is , the 340 and 360 have slightly more beef in the main webbing . The 360 block is stronger in the bottom end due to the larger main bearings , and the main caps are beefier and the bolts have a larger spread . The larger mains make for a stronger crank , especially with stroker builds .
The larger main bearings are a detriment in a high rpm situation, let alone a stroker build. The small block Chevrolet was and is the standard.
@@keithqueen352 boost will take advantage the mopar block's strength. Don't need to rev too high when you have boost.
@@sepg5084 if you think the Chevrolet block is not capable of more boost with revs, you're wrong.
@@sepg5084 the small block Chevrolet is the superior block. Boost or rpm makes no difference.
I always loved that shaft Mount rocker
Nice comparison. Been a Mopar head for many moons, and built a couple LA engines. The best was a very streetable 420+ HP 360 back in the early 90's when that was not bad for an NA pump gas motor with excellent vacuum. It was my daily driver, and I sold it with over 50,000 miles on it (probably close to 100 of those were full-boogie laps at the drag strip). That being said, I never trash anyone else's favorite badge...they've all made jewels, and they've all made clunkers. Drive what ya' love!
Always nice to see you two guys talking real nice technicals like this, rarely done comparison👍
Thank you gents! I really like the idea of chamfering the bottom edge of the cylinder bore to aid in airflow back into the cylinders as the piston goes up in the cylinders in the exhaust and compression strokes. I never considered airflow and pressures in the bottom end of the block. This makes me wonder what else I have not considered?
In a nitrous class at the Engine Masters Challenge we had a 360 mopar with only a 2 bolt main and no girdle and a cast crank produce 849hp and 748lbft.
Then put in a truck and ran naturally aspirated for another 5000 miles without any problems.
More Mopar builds would be very welcomed. I am really looking forward to this ,1 horsepower per 1cubic inch, Mopar 318 build.
With a stock cam and a stock two barrel ? I want to see that .
Hot Rod or Car Craft's Junk Yard series of engine builds already built a 426 horsepower 318. It is most definitely an overlooked engine with much potential. I would not be surprised in the least to see a 1 hp per cid 318 although the cam is the hard part.
@@danawilliams9311 any stock LS engine makes at least 1.2 hp per cu.in.
STOCK
@@MP-pz9oe apples and oranges, 30+ years of design difference, ls don't have to deal with 2 barrel carburetors and distributors for example. Factory ls heads and intake flow way better in comparison and the cam in the chryslers are more mild.
@@MP-pz9oe "stock" is a hilariously stupid term. part for part, spec for spec, if a 5.2 magnum and 5.3 truck ls are built with the same cam and compression, the 318 actually has the same hp, but more tq.
One critical thing that was overlooked but definitely worthy of consideration is how much larger the distance between the mopar's crank centreline and cam centreline is.
Mopar's design moves the hollow cam tunnel up and away from the most stressed part of the bottom end. The Crank saddles.
You don't have to be an engineer to see that this adds an enormous amount of strength and rigidity where it counts most.
That is a valid point! Plus leaves more room for stroker crankshafts..
Andy
@@UnityMotorSportsGarage and that's not a small point, either. Mopar's LA design copied from the first gen Hemi, involving the odd angle, but a shorter pushrod will result but it means you can run H beams rather than I beams and a tall lobe cam for a lot of lift--otherwise you're running some crazy 1.8:1 rocker arm ratio on the valve springs.
@@albertgaspar627 they redesigned it from the Poly Head motor but kept the goofy 59° lifter angle. That's been the Achilles Heal of it since the rpms started going up. Bob Glidden cut out & fabricated a new lifter valley back in the day to 48°.. That ol' Indiana farm boy was AMAZING!
Also, I’ve heard that the Mopar needs less clearancing for stroker cranks because of the wider pan rails (though not a factor in this case lol).
@@vincentenk4449 Yes he was! I read an interview with Bob in a Mopar magazine and the writer made a statement that was something like “in 1979, the 340 ‘carried’ you to the championship” and Bob let the guy know in a nice but direct way…. “You have no idea how much work we put into that motor….” lol
As always, really good stuff. I'm really lookin' forward to the 318 build, totally great idea.
1.5 HP per CI
@@rbotton6272 Seriously?
I've got Chrysler, Ford and Chevy all in one project. Like this comparo, can't wait to see more.
I love this kind of tech ! (especially when it includes Mopars).It brings back memories. Back around 1975 NASCAR mandated the use of small block engines in what is "Cup" today. When Maurice Petty built their first small block Mopar it had mostly Chevy internals !
I really enjoyed this video, it took me back to the late 1960s and 1970s. I used 350 Pontiac blocks, while my buddy used 350 Chevy blocks. The Pontiac had a camshaft end float keeper on the front of the block. The only thing holding the Chevy camshaft in was the timing chain itself. Also the Chevy camshafts tended to wear more as the block valley was solid over the camshaft. The Pontiac block valley was open in places, allowing more oil flowing over the camshaft. We used to remove the oil gallery core plugs, tap them and screw in threaded plugs. Crane Fireball camshafts and Rhoads Lifters, an early form of variable valve lift and timing. Oh happy days, many thanks again for the memories.
I would have never thought a small block chevy would be heavier than a 318. Great content Andy and David!!
The 318 is underrated because it was always equipped with fuel economy oriented cylinder heads
Being a 400ci, probably adds a little extra weight from the siamese bores. Not enough to get it on par in weight but its something to consider.
@@mytmousemalibu 350 blocks aswell as 305 blocks are all over 150 pounds regardless
My dad had always told me that one reason they didn't have a lot of Mopar aftermarket was because the factory parts were so good to start with. This seems to kind of back that up some. Though I'm surprised there still isn't more all these years later. Go to Summit or Jegs and look up cylinder heads and it's comical. There are dozens of pages for the Chevy and barely a page for Mopar. Harder to build when you just can't buy parts.
The FE had the same problem.,the Ford parts likecMopar were so good.
Want to hear something funny and depressing? The valve guides had gone on my dad's '79 Silverado Big-10. Basic 4-bbl, 350, no smog engine. Chevy dealership wanted a lot of money to fix it up. Dodge dealership was so happy to get business that they undercut the Chevy dealership with a brand new Chevy engine install. The Chevy stuff is so cheap and common that a Dodge dealership can make profit. This was in '85 or '86 according to my dad.
@@PorscheRacer14 Lol, wow, that's something. I know I looked at the cost to rebuild the 350 in my 71 Vette just for fun and I could pretty much replace every part in the engine for the cost of just a camshaft for my Viper. Something is wrong when you can buy a whole rotating assembly cheaper than single parts.
@@Map71Vette it makes sense though.
There's probably 3x more 350 chevy engine blocks used as gearhead coffee tables than the total number of Viper V10 engines ever produced.
@@Map71Vette 4th or 5th gen? if so what do you think about the VVT system? as i wishful that the V8's got it
At heat and high rpm on a continuous load, laps or stress of pulling, it's unreal of the stress on the lower part of the engine block, that's the reason the thicker/ heavier is better.
I'm a Ford guy, but would definitely like to see you guys do more Mopar builds than you do.
I agree it seems Mopar gets the shaft their are a lot of us still here
I'm going to try and work on that!
Mopar guys want to build hemis and max wedges!🤷🏻♂️
@@thebigokie6.4_392 Truth. Especially, the modern Hemis.
I'm just an average Mopar guy and I can tell you old Hemi's and Max Wedge stuff are the playground of guys with deeper pockets than most. I'll stick to my 3 318's and 2 440's.
with the price of SHP blocks being so low, it makes ZERO financial sense to build a stock block " high power engine" anything they're available for, unless there's a class rule.If the mopar block had siamesed bores, they'd be the king of the small blocks, especially if chrysler had developed the Poly heads, which were avaible in 1959 as the A engine, which became the LA engine later. The Poly heads just needed some port revisions, they would have been cleveland heads far earlier.
the A engine in 1959, High cam distance, tall deck, splayed canted heads, 4.480 bore spacing. The A engine was turned into the LA engine to make it lighter and cheaper. What a shame, the Poly had all the right ingredients to make a ton of power.
You are right, the Poly had a lot of potential that was never developed. Top HP was a 290HP 318 in 1957. Next year the big block B engine came out and it became the performance engine with the 318 relegated to base V8 workhorse duty. And before that, was overshadowed by the Hemi. So the 318 potential was neglected in favor of the big brothers.
Someone at one time had a kit for the poly blocks so a Hemi head could be used on those if I remember years ago but if I remember there was a lot of machining that had to be done to the deck of the block to make it work. Now that I think of it should look around on TH-cam here to see if any of these engines are on here or if anyone has done any Dyno testing to see what kind of power they made . Not sure but I'm thinking they probably used the old 392 Hemi heads I would assume being the 426 Hemi head is quite a bit bigger in size than those first gen Hemi engines were .
I think the biggest advantage of the sbc wasn't that it was introduced earlier.....but it's interchangeability and versatility.
You can pop out a 262 and bolt a 400 in it's place. The other 2 can't get to 400ci with factory parts which was a big advantage before you could open up a summit catalog and buy whatever you wanted.
With that said...400sbc ftw
That is absolutely true.
and just to stop that one guy...... the 400 doesnt overheat, crack the block ,ETC
the 882 heads do crack.... but so does every 882 casting made
.
just drill the steam holes AT THE CORRECT ANGLES!!! not straight down...on some cheap 350 heads
.
.
but ya... i F-HEN love my 400s
big block torque.... small block size
.
love telling people its a factory 327 in my 68 impala......
a BIT cheat-y..... but they should have seen the harmonic balancer "slice" and knew something was up.......
.
REALLY cheat-y would be internally balancing a 400, using a 350 crank for a 377
high RPM motor with HUGE pistons and still a decent stroke for torque..... beats all 383s (at least for HP.....383s make torque, but not like a 400)
383 = poor mans 400
377 = rich mans 327
.
anyway... as you can tell
i love my 400s
I remember back in the late 60’s how popular the 327 Chevy was. Chevy guys raved about it all the time. But they were kinda discouraged when the small journal crank was replaced with the bigger journal crank. The loyalist stayed with the small journal 327. Small journal chevys 265,283 z/28 302 and 327 were great if you loved high high rpm. But the 350 Chevy pretty much replaced most of them unless you were loyal to the 327.
The 327s were awesome sounding in comparison. Short stroke-high rev. The 302 was made only for trans-Am racing, and had a 283 crank in a 327 block. Saw one run briefly at a show, and it was extremely radical.
If I were to build a chev engine it would be a 2-bolt 327 around the 400 HP mark. they just seem to run nicer. They built a 4- bolt 327 on the 350 block, but a stock car driver I know told me they tend to overheat with extended runs at high RPM. Told me I would be better off beefing up the bottom end of a 2-bolt. I am not reaching for big numbers so any of these blocks would be good stock, but better safe than sorry. As an aside, the 307 was built on the 350 block, and in my opinion were grossly underrated. Exceptionaly tough, good power, decent gas milage It replaced the 283, so my guess is people didn't like it just for that reason.
Drinking this in gentlemen. Can't wait to see both your talents loosed onto these plentiful 318s.
Back in the 70s we could care less about aftermarket support, as we had Direct Connection as close as our nearest Plymouth or Dodge dealer. We used to get the latest catalog religiously each year. The high compression engines were already the scourge of the tracks and streets back then anyway. 340s in light weight A-bodies could pretty much clean the streets back then. If that didn't do it, the 383s, 440s and 440 six packs took care of the rest, with the Hemi kept back as the ace in the hole. Truthfully it was no competition, back then, before modified rear suspensions for GMs. As crude as the super stock springs and factory pinion snubbers were, they hooked up much better than the factory GMs did stock.
We never really warmed up the 318s, because 340s were plentiful. Later when they got scarcer and we started to understand the torque advantages and potential of 360s, it cost the same to build a 360, as it did a 318.
Gotta say I'm very interested in this 318 build. Great video👍
Malcolm Ottawa Valley
Hell yeah
It's going to be fun!
Another big reason Chevrolet small blocks got more popular was because of their rear sump oil pan set-up. Was a whole lot better in drag race situations than the Ford and Dodge center sumps were.
I mean to be fair, the chrysler engine stated as an "a" engine in the 50's with the 315 poly and then 318 poly. Then the la came out. La being "light a" it was revamped a little to make the magnum. There's magnum blocks running around making 1600 hp. Reliable? No. Will the block get destroyed if the rotating assembly stays together, also no on a seasoned block.
Awesome video. I have always loved all small blocks and have been around them most of my life but my favorite will always be the original 351 Cleveland since I grew up around Bob Glidden and what he did with it in pro stock was just amazing I love its power potential with those huge heads that still flow just as well as most of the after market heads. I have had a few built Cleveland as well as 350 and 400 Chevy's and the cleveland's performance vs the others is just unreal.
Did they just compare a ford 302 block to a Chevy 350? Why not compare apples to apples with a 351?
Somewhat related as to blocks, I remember reading some years ago about the details of Chrysler's experiments with a smallblock PS car(Yellow Duster) full tube frame to compete with Grumpy Jenkin's tube frame Vega. Chevy had a lot of special parts that Chrysler didn't at the time(circa 1972) and Chrysler was using their TA blocks. They actually were making enough power to split the blocks in testing. The factory wasn't willing to spend the $ to cast new sturdier blocks that could handle the power level so the whole project got scrapped. I've collected quite a few photos of the car, the engines and the whole build/testing process.
That is very interesting! I wonder what the difference was in those blocks compared to what Bob Glidden ran in '79
Andy
@@UnityMotorSportsGarage Maybe someone like Keith Black got in on it by that point and made some blocks for Glidden(?), who knows.
well, jenkins cheated with the vega, as no vega ever came with a v8 stock. mopar came back with a hemi colt and beat him, so the NHRA punished mopar again and again after chevy whined.
Kinda says a lot about the Chevy that it came 7-9 years before the others and not only lasted longer but also achieved the most success and largest displacement. It overall has very few flaws.
it cant win leMans...they explode..KABOOM...
I have a Blue Print engines sbc. It's similar to a Dart block which is advertised at 175lbs. Really nice piece.
The LA blocks can take very large stroker cranks also because of the tall deck nature of the block!
@@bigboreracing356 the 340 won Pro Stock
@@bigboreracing356 kinda like a BBC
@@bigboreracing356 B3 racing makes a nice shaft rocker geometry correction kit, I have it on my 433" small block la.
Thank you for actually showing the subject material
as someone that ran small block fords stock, i admired the 327 chevy engine because it was a really good street machine, all the makes had good engines if you put the work
into them and ithingk the boss engines or clevland engines from ford were probably the most versatile for making power at the time since no one was using turbos etc like today
The LA block has its roots farther back than the SBC, it's based on the 1954 hemi block. It's also a 9.6+ deck height. The main bearing bolts on the 318 are huge compared to those others. Weight don't really matter if it's in the wrong places so you can't read too much into that and as far as that is concerned that Chevy is an uncommon siamese bore that is heavier than the much more common 4 inch bore Chevy block. Another thing worth mentioned is the 318 and 360 magnum blocks that are 15lbs heavier and it's in important places.
Great video guys! I’m curious to hear yours and David’s opinion on the Chrysler heads, that the valves open into the widest part of the bore, and that the spark plug is located more toward the center of the chamber for a wedge. I always heard that these are good features but, we’ll see. Really looking forward to this series!
Mopar small block heads also have a very good exhaust port, some even say it can over-scavange the cylinders
@@JoakimVike I believe that's only on the pre-Magnum roller-cam heads and only because that particular exhaust port was better than average and the intake was worse. Magnum heads are far better and clean up quite easily compared to older LA heads.
The 350 came out 1967...
sbm exhaust ports are nuts. you can see the whole valve through the port lol.
I had a machinist at the store I worked for that was cussing up,a storm about how long it was taking to bore out an International Block. I asked why he was so mad he said it was taking all day, and he could bore at least 3 SBC’s in that amount time. I asked why that was, and he said they were made of softer iron. After doing some research the only the factory performance engines got a decent amount of nickel, while engines like IHC, Pontiac and AMzC used high nickel casting for all their blocks. Fords used the same low content block in their Windsor series angina. The only exception to that being thenBoss 302. Their performance related FEs had the good stuff too. As for engine durability, going beyond just the blocks, I’ve seen all kinds of failures. Poor rebuild conditions and methods took out a lot of them. But the strangest thing I’ve ever seen was when I was working for a shop the rebuilt customers engines and R&R’d them. One day a dodge van pulled up running rough as hell. When we tore it down everyone was astonished to see what failed. Somehow the center main journal, which carried the thrust bearing in the block, was broke in half. But because it had broken at an angle, one half pushed the other around when the fron try,infers fired and vice versa, remember this engine brought the customer to the shop. Strange stuff, but true!
Happy Building guys!
Not only the time frame of when the engine design was put into place, but you also have to keep in mind that when Ford went OHV it did so with the Y-block which really didn't set the word on fire. Not beating up the Y-block ,but it just didn't come out of the gate swinging for the fences. That put a slightly sour taste in performance minded drivers. Chrysler had the hemi but it was expensive to produce and not in the league with the small block chevy. Car companies are only as good as their previous design. Win on Sunday sell on Monday. Once you lose your customer it takes a lot to win them back.
You are exactly right! I talk about the Y block in my SBC history video
Andy
Gonna have to disagree.
the sbc is an excellent platform, but the early gen 1 hemi was literally worlds ahead in terms of power potential... like the two are not even close.
A factory 331ci hemi cylinder head can be ported to flow well over 300cfm.
That's impressive numbers by today's standards...from a 1955 casting.
In 2017 a 331 based hemi got runner-up behind John kaase in engine masters.
It made 730hp with a class limit of 6500rpm and 100 octane fuel.
Again. Factory block and cylinder head castings. 😮
One thing few people talk about is mopar's larger lifter bores which have something around 19% more contact patch than a sbc lifter. Allowing for a much more aggressive lobe.
But yes the downfall of the early hemi is they were VERY expensive, ridiculously heavy, and they made extremely few of them.
So they were never going to be a viable option for 99% of racers, or gain support from the aftermarket world
But they actually hold up extremely well against modern designs in terms of all-out power potential.
@@jacksonjdr94 there is a reason why the early Hemi became the dominant engine in Top Fuel! They were BEEFY and made way more power vs the other engine platforms..
Andy
@@UnityMotorSportsGarage absolutely, but the 2nd gen 426 Hemi gets all the glory which is well deserved as it was designed for competition and has dominated in drag racing for decades.
But the much less coveted first gen hemi (331, 354, 392) is also full of potential and often overlooked due to its age and relatively tame stock configuration.
I am completely in love with the 318 project.
But it also crosses my mind that if you guys ever get the opportunity to do the same kind of blueprinted build with a 331 hemi using mostly stock parts... these seem to be the most common and have the best cylinder head.
I'd bet it could outperform the 318 LA by a pretty wide margin. Perhaps 100hp?
The high nickel Chevy blocks were mostly reserved for high performance big blocks, but high nickel Chevy small blocks were made for special performance, over the counter blocks and they were all 4 bolt main cap blocks. Pontiac and Chevy didn't use GM's high nickel iron for many of their blocks, but Olds and Buick did use GM's high nickel cast iron for their standard blocks.
The MoPar small block actually started life in 1956 in the Plymouth as a 277 ci, then 303 0r 301, then 318, and one year only as a 326 in a Dodge. The LA head was designed as a replacement for the poly head in 64 so that the engine could be fitted into the A body MoPars and to reduce manufacturing costs. That is the reason for the odd pushrod angularity at the lifter, the lifter bores were left in the old poly position. The poly engine had a valve layout similar to the chevy 396, 454 engines. The poly 318 & the LA 318 blocks are almost identical except for some oiling holes. MoPar small block engines that come out of trucks are made of high nickel iron and are very durable. Rod/ stroke ratio on the little 318 & the 340 has an advantage also. If you think the main web is thick on the little 318 you should see the main webs on a 340 TA block. A local shop has one of them with the 4 bolt splayed main caps. I can't understand why so many people are surprised about the potential of 318. The 340 is nothing more than an over bored 318. Same stroke, same crankshaft dimensions just a larger bore & better heads. On the Ford 5.0, one downfall is the extreme rod angularity when the crank pin is in the 90 deg position. It places a great deal of side pressure on the cylinder block at that position. The chevy has a big advantage because there are so many of them and the variety of go-fast stuff that is available. Good video & honest evaluations of the 3 designs.
They should have stuck with the poly head and developed it further.
I find it funny that the 4.7l dodge the heads are the same design. Those engines make good power just timing chian and oiling problems.
@@racecitypatriot66 I had 2 vehicles with that 318 poly engine & they both performed quite well. Canada continued to make vehicles with them well after we dropped the engine. They were used extensively in industrial & marine engines also. It was a solid design. I have a rebuilt poly long block in my shop now that I have for sale on Craigslist. Chrysler claimed that they had 2 reasons for it's demise: Expensive manufacturing costs & the need to make an engine that was narrow enough to fit in their A bodies and both make sense.
A = Poly,
L = Light,
LA = Light Poly.
I knew another MoPar guy would drop in!
@@i-am-that-what-i-am All engines considered to be A engines were the ones with the distributor in the rear of the engine. All the gen 1 hemis, the 55 plymouth, 55 thru 57 Dodge poly (different than the poly engines that started with the 56 Plymouth poly), and all the 273 thru 360 engines were A engines. I have heard that LA stands for either late A or light A. Poly is short for polysphere. All B blocks have the distributor in the front. That oddball poly that was used one year in the Plymouth & 3 or 4 years in the Dodge came is sizes 270, 315, & 325 ci displacement and the hemi heads from the same size engines would fit on the poly block. Been there done that so I know it can be done. Engine sizes for the poly that morphed into the 318 poly were 277, 301, 318, and 326. 326 was a 1 or 2 year only in Dodge.
Im a Chevrolet man through and through. I bleed Chevrolet orange. But the truth is. Im also a small block guy and would love to play around with some small block ford and small block Chrysler stuff. I have a LA that’s been setting for a few years to the side I’ve been wanting to fool with
Makin' power isn't the problem.
Keepin' it inside the block.... That's a whole new convo...
Ford’s further problem was they built so many engine families while Chevrolet stuck with one basic and a couple of big block derivatives for so long over the years. At the end of the production run, Ford was back to making performance packages around engines that weren’t particularly developed with performance in mind - ie the 302 and 351W. The 302 briefly had a 4V option in 68, the 351W in 69; while the Cleveland designs and derivatives were up and coming until emissions knocked them down. Wasn’t until the early 80s that performance started really coming of age for the small block Fords. Even the K-code 289 had small valves, and that it was a formidable race motor in endurance racing is a testament to the builders and teams. Didn’t realize the little Ford was so light and the Chevy so heavy.
You are right....Ford was late to the dance .....ALOT!
The only thing that really held back the small block mopar was the lack of race oriented speed parts though that is starting to change
every time I watch one of your videos, I learn something new. thanks for another great video gentlemen!
Thanks Kurt! I really appreciate that
Andy
Remember as a kid my neighbor had a gigantic 38 foot RV popped the dog house one day and there was a tiny 318 under there with almost 2 feet clearance on all sides. Much respect, you will never hear me bad mouth a 318!
Anyone who disses a Mopar 318 knows nothing about engines ! They are and will always be 1 of the most indestructible engines ever built !
Arcus Duntov made the GM performance program. Take the cheapest car make performance parts for it,and it will sell.
back in the late seventies when i started playing mechanic,i was told them numbers refer to tin and nickel content,i have seen in my day,020\020-010/020-and just a 010 and a 020 in the chain area.and i have only seen one 020\020 on a block. i also have 2 400 4 bolt blocks and one 2 bolt block. one 400 4 bolt is still original bore,the others have been bored,good luck on the 318 build,i was once a mopar man,but parts was rare and expensive then and now
And if you’ve played with enough you will also see 014/024. No difference. There all core mold numbers. There is no measurable nickel and absolutely no tin at all in a cast grey iron block period
@@brandonbell3089 well i at the time made sense to me only being a teenager,never gave it much more thought and wasnt to interested in them numbers any more,but as for measurable amounts 1 percent and 2 percent wouldnt be much on a 172 pound block any way
Best part of the sbm is the rear of the lifter valley… No chance in hell it’ll hold oil like the other two. Oil drain back from lifter valley is like a 4 lane hwy lol. Only downside is it’s thinner cylinder walls… I have a 390 ci 4” crank .030 over bore sbm. In a 3800 lb Dakota with me, ran a 12.58 at 107
That was really interesting, I didn't realize the 318 had floating pins, thought that was just a 340 thing.I have a SB Chev in the garage because it was cheap to put decent aftermarket heads on and the chassis has lots of aftermarket support, but I claim no allegiance to Chev. I'm interested in all brands, beyond the Big 3.
As far as a swap goes, the SB Ford is often chosen for its front mount distributor and narrow width from the short deck. A BB Chev can be an enviable power maker but at what weight penalty?
Looking forward to more of your collective efforts!
Floating pins up to 73 or 74 press pins after.
same. im a mopar nut through and through, but i bought a 78 trans am a couple years ago, and now have a vortec 350 to put in it. always loved trans ams, and toyed with putting a big block mopar in it, but decide sbc for ease and cost.
That was cool ! And no I've never personally had the chance to check the 3 manufacturer of engine blocks like that, thanks!
Thank You David Vizard
I'm not a "This Car" or "That Car" kind of guy. I'm an Andy guy! Thanks for your objectivity, variety, and leaving brand drama outside.
The stock 8.2 deck Ford is definitely not limited to 500hp, a stock bottom end 302 isn't even maxed at 500hp. Go check out Miss Midnight Mavericks channel if you dont believe me, or just search up Ugly Kid Racing Engines. Miss Midnight and Tony are at 600hp on a Procharger/nitrous setup on a completely stock bottom end.
I would like to see y’all put Davids header theory in this test to compare against off the shelf headers . It has the same firing order and would be cool to see on a small block.
Very informative! I'm a Mopar guy but I love learning about all of it! Thanks guys
Something else I've heard in the past is that Chevrolet and Ford allow aftermarket freedom whereas Mopar held a requirement for all aftermarket parts to be tested and approved by Mopar, thus increasing the price of the parts...which I would say could definitely reduce the amount of available aftermarket parts as well as detour aftermarket companies from wanting to participate.
A close friend of mine just passed on. He ran an engine service, including internal balancing. I worked for him nearly 50 years ago.
He was very pragmatic, assessing short blocks by the following. Is it a structurally sound configuration? Is the oiling system adequate? Is the rod length to stroke ratio suitable for the target RPM range you are wanting? RPM suitability can be measured in feet per second of piston speed. A ton more comes into play.
The heads and cam profile are a study in volumetric efficiency for mass flow.
Bottom line, none are perfect, just do the engineering. We can all learn from people like Vizard, Bruce Crower, Ricard Bowman (of Speed-O-Motive fame) Ed Pink, Don Bass, Donovan, Keith Black, etc.
Thank you to them all. You gave us a gift!
Finally an explanation why chevy has been the most popular aftermarket engine that makes sense. What you said makes way more sense than uncle Tony's explanation.
I agree totally. Tony's explanation regarding the oil pan makes some sense, but I don't think it had that much to do with the popularity of the Chevy SB. A 9 year head start, plus just the sheer volume of Chevys vs. Mopar makes way more sense. Also, I honestly don't remember the oil pan being an issue on the sb Mopar and the only time I saw people spinning main bearings on a big block is when they were poorly maintained.
@Clem Bob yeah, I think @uncle Tony's Garage just says stuff to get comments.
It's funny Tony leaves out the glaring obvious facts of a topic.
I'd love to see you do a similar build with a 4v Cleveland engine like your doing with Tony's 318 build to see how much power U can get out of it using stock parts
Paul, I would like to team up with DragBoss Garage to do something like that down the road!
Absolutely, Clevos have a lot going for them, including big breathing heads STD even 2 v's
The reason they are doing a 318 is because nobody thinks ot can make power 351 Cleveland was designed to make power,how much and how many 351c blocks can you find in a junkyard for a couple hundred.351c build belongs on Stacie David's channel where money is no object
Just swapped out a guys 1971 Satellite 318. Replaced his 318 with a rebuilt 318. I now have a 71 318 I am going to freshen up. I have some 340 parts hear to bolt on it. Don’t know what I will do with it. But just looking at it on the engine stand in the corner of my garage makes me smile.
Also on small block Mopars quite I few came with steel cranks and all them had flaptop pistons witch is a plus
The first engine I worked on was an International "Blue Diamond". Old stuff and not common, so after that it's just whatever interests me, and frankly, what has parts available in the middle of nowhere Canada. I love my old Mopar but parts are a pain. When it came to getting a new car to tinker with, I really wanted a 396 Challenger Scat Pack but Dodge had tuning locked down and the aftermarket wasn't here with parts so I went with the Mustang. I've had a BMW, Porsches, Chevys, Cat, Massey, Cummins, Case. Doesn't matter to me, as long as it does the job I need it to do. That said, the older I get, the more I start tinkering with older stuff around the farm.
I like the comparison of the blocks. From a race builders perspective, if given a blank slate and $10k to play with, which block or series of design blocks do you normally go with?
Can you and DV do a modernized comparison with the LS, 3gen hemi ,and Fords Triton or Coyote blocks? Just wondering if it could be a talking piece. Nevertheless I absolutely love the nuggets of information and the many years of knowledge being put out on video for us modern high performance guys to fall back on. Thank you for your guys insight, always appreciated.
That would be pretty cool.
I think that it would be a very different comparison though.
Part of what makes thus video so interesting is that the three different small blocks have very similar/comparable architecture and dimensions. Which makes it easy to speculate on the strength limitations of each
The LS, G3 hemi and Coyote are conceptually nothing alike.
The LS is an alloy cam-in-block engine
The Hemi is a cast iron cam-in-block engine
The Coyote is an alloy block with overhead cams.
They really couldn't be more different.
The one thing these older pushrod motors have over many newer V8's is that hey are narrower. Makes swapping into smaller car easier...no cutting of the car to fit I have a mild build 302 in my datsun.....fit easily in place of the original 4 cylinder
@@neilduncan8657 yep, absolutely.
although the Hemi with its dual rocker shafts is almost as wide as a DOHC unit would be anyhow.
There is nothing like good information and analysis. Thanks.
Could you go over the weak points of each block and the corrections to those weaknesses? What about the weight after timing sets and water pumps?
Mopar small blocks are a really good engine, but like it was said, it started life a lot later than the Chevy SB, and of course, the sheer volume of Chevy vs. Mopar gave it a huge advantage as far as aftermarket development. That said, I have been running Mopar SBs for over 40 years and I love em and always will.
I WAS quite surprised that the Mopar SB is actually lighter than the Chevy, especially since it was derived from the old Poly head A engine.
I was shocked as well! My first car was a '70 Duster with a 340 I built when I was a teenager.. I have always had a love for the LA Mopar! Thanks for watching
Andy
LA. Lightened A engine. "A" was polysphere.
Poly A engine debuted the same year as Chevrolet, 1955. The Poly was stronger, had a better head design and made more power but was bulky and heavy. It was overshadowed by big brother Chrysler Hemi and later the B and RB big blocks, which were nearly the same size in bulk and weight but up to 100CU IN more displacement. In 1957 Chevy was popping their buttons over their 283HP 283 with fuel injection, Plymouth Fury had a 290HP 318 with 2 4 barrel carburetors that could beat the Chev easily. Next year Plymouth had the big B engine while Chevy got the 348 which was slower than a good 283. In other words Chevy leaned on the small block performance because that is all they had.
Be interesting to see the Windsor and Cleveland blocks in this comparison
The other factor, not mentioned is cost, as a mopar guy, I can tell you it costs a lot more to build a mopar engine. The availability of SB Chevy parts is also much greater.
That's exactly right, don't forget Mopar guys have less of a selection of Cylinder heads, etc
Andy
When I was younger I always heard that Chrysler was weird about patents and the aftermarket. I don't know if that's true or not, but if so it could also have influenced popularity/availability of parts. But I think your idea about early availability makes good sense
Another thing that should be addressed is the mulitple variations of SBF blocks, even well into the 5.0 era. Mexican blocks, the B50, immortal A4, etc. That all in addition to 351W, 351C. The Ford 5.0 blocks are also noted as being high nickle content, not strong but very durable for long-term wear.
Also the thickwall cast 302 and 351 Cleveland Australian blocks, that incidently were less prone to Web cracks in cold temps.
Yes you heard correctly 302 Cu 5 liter Cleveland's were manufactured by Ford Australia, with 53 cc combustion chambered 2 v heads, bolted on to a 351 made a huge comp increase.
The Cleveland 351 was modified to a 302 in order to only have one block for V8 production dropping the imported Windsor 289 302 and 351 and allowing a smaller capacity V8 as well as the 351.
351 Cleveland HO engines were fitted to hi po Australian Ford Falcons making them at the time the fastest 4 door production cars on the planet, 145 mph I believe!
I learned early on that nothing on a Ford interchanges, with another Ford. Other than a "V-Belt", no Manifolds, Trans, Mounts, Water pump fit another, Strange.
I never understood why a SBF needed to have 6 different front timing covers.. WHY???
@@UnityMotorSportsGarage In the early 80's, we had 10-11 year old cars & full sized Ford needed a T,C&G. Every bolt was a different length, size or both. Half of my tool box on the bench to do one job!
@@deankay4434 don't forget about the bolts breaking off! Man I feel you...
Great video guys! Sounds like David may convert to Mopar soon! 😂 But really, I know the blocks and designs all have their strengths. Thanks for sharing. I learned something today
Joe, once I started pointing the details of the SBM it really got DV'S wheels turning!
Good to see a video finally that shows the all important business end of the motor
keep in mind, the LA engines are based off of the poly v-8s of the fifties (1956 I believe) and even the early hemis. Before you go hatin, the 350 vortec is based off of the 1955 265 v-8 though not all of the parts will interchange. If you ever look at the lifter angle of a 318 that is why they are that way, ie. to accommodate the poly heads and even the early hemi heads. Many of the parts of the LA engine will interchange with the poly.
Great Video Andy and David.
I would not have guessed the Chevy was heavier thank the Mopar.
All very interesting and thought provoking.
Take care, Ed.
Thanks Ed.. it is very interesting, I wish I had a Windsor and Cleveland block to compare... That can be a whole topic in itself
Andy
@@UnityMotorSportsGarage yeah and I like to see a metal hardness test on all those blocks....bet the Mopar is close to the softest
@@moparnut6286 I second that.
Although I'm not sure about the mopar block bring soft. I've heard they had a high nickel content which is supposed to be good for strength.
However as much as I love mopar, they were always very good at finding corners to cut. 😄
There's only one way to find out for sure!
@@jacksonjdr94 well I remember an article years back that did a Rockwell test and the blocks were a little softer and 440 source did test some big blocks and found that after 75 they are just a little softer than pre 75 but this maybe a sweet spot of ductibilty that may help them absorb stress and not break?... For sure the mains webbing got thicker on the later big block mopars making their bottom ends more stable... Making the 400s very strong.
@@moparnut6286 very interesting.
Personally I would be interested in testing the difference between an LA and a magnum in terms of metallurgy.
On visual inspection, both castings seem to be quite similar in terms of having meat where it's needed.
I have heard people say magnum blocks aren't as strong as the LA. But also seen videos of 750whp turbocharged pickups running unmodified 5.9 magnum blocks.
As usual, there's lots of talk and no testing/proof anywhere. 😆
I like corraberation between numerous channels. It's multiplying the knowledge. Thanks
Long time Chevy fan. Have switched to Ford. Would like to see Ford builds. Thank Much. Jeff
What made you switch to Ford?
@@leee3880 most likely reliability issues with the Chevrolet. I've been Ford my whole life.
I like them all. But Chevrolet has less shortcomings than the others. That same thing applies to GM ignition systems compared to the others aswell as GM transmissions compared to the others
Dunno where you get the idea that the chevy block has less shortcomings . The Mopar blocks have a higher content of nickel . The taller deck height allowed them to use 6.123 inch rods from the factory , compared to the custom 6 in. " long " rods that chevy guys have to buy . The head bolts are also further from the bore than in the chevy , which results in less bore distortion . The mopar also has larger lifters and wider cam lobes than the chevy . That , combined with harder cams means that the Mopars didn't suffer from cam wear like the chevies did . The Mopar also uses 18 degree valve angles compared to 23 for the chevy . And chrysler's shaft mounted rocker system is more stable than the ball stud type used on the chevy . A ball stud setup allows the rocker arm to move around , which alters valve lift .
@@HowardJrFord factory shaft mount style rockers limit camshaft selections on Chrysler small blocks/ pushrod angle on the small block Chrysler is terrible/ the open lifter valley is structurally weaker/ only available in 2 bolt mains on a small block Chrysler etc
@@HowardJrFord the higher content of nickel is a HUGE MYTH 😂😂
@@HowardJrFord Grey cast iron does NOT even contain measurable nickel 😂😂.
@@HowardJrFord 6.125 rods are commonly used in small block Chevrolet engines aswell
Thank You guys for fantastic presentation. I appreciate the Ford blocks for being so light. Seem like the best thing for street action.
The Ford FE is quite light and will allow a long rod. If you weigh one you will be surprised at how light they are compared with a SBC.
@@Bbbbad724 I’m surprised there isn’t more fe engine out racing. They seem to make really good power for what they are.
@@jcnpresser I agree. This is a 550 lb engine with the new aftermarket block and Edelbrock heads at 505 ci that made 853 hp NA. I have built 390 stock blocks that made just at 600 hp and it is still holding together. If you know what to address and improve it is as light as a 351W and though the W has many different heads available, the FE design from the factory when built for it is “Born to Run “
The small block Ford is the most compact because the Falcon engine compartment was small
Or the weakest link for street and strip action. Block structure. Light castings aren’t stronger
I really need to watch more of your content. I love these videos.
Thanks for watching!
Andy
You two work well together. And so easy to understand. Thanks from Canada.
The deal with the small block Chevy is they were the only manufacturer with a 400 CID small block. They lobbied the racing sanctioning bodies to restrict CID to 410. This gave them a huge advantage. This cemented their future as a dominant engine. Before this, the big block Mopars were very competitive on the dirt. At least that’s how I see it.
The SB Chevy has other advantages that cannot be ignored. 5 head bolts per cylinder, equal spaced intake ports, priority main oiling, can be gear driven and the oil pump is in the back etc ..
Good video, but I think a SBF with a 9.5” deck would’ve been a more apples to apples comparison. They are capable of handling much more power than an 8.2” deck. Almost double.
thanks for the comparison!
Very much enjoyed the video! Thank you gentlemen, well done!
I'm glad you enjoyed it X... Looks like we will have a part 2 going more in detail so stay tuned
Andy
You guys just expanded my knowledge base. Thank you
You are forgetting the poly 318 though not an la it's dimensions are the same except for some water ports. Heads are only major departure . I have used many poly blocks with plugs in water for big power builds
010/020 was just a casting core ID. You only started seeing it when the 010 4" bore block casting came out about 1970. Chevy did what every other manufacturer did to get the most out of casting fixtures. 010 was 4" bore casting (350) and 020 was 3.875 casting (307). If you had a set of 350 cores for cylinders you can substitute valley and front cores with 307 ones to keep the casting process moving along. I've seen 307 blocks with reversed numbers. Ford notoriously did this with FE series engines... this is why you can see almost any displacement FE with a 352 on the front. Mopar would just add a -+ number on side to let the foundry know how many "repairs" were done to the cores. If anyone thinks Chevy would actually make special alloys for different blocks and stop casting production to run these special blocks should really think about what that would entail. And variations in block hardness or machinability is because of the inaccurate way they do thing at a foundry. Just remember a good part of the iron is recycled scrap and flash.
Regardless of what it entailed, Chevy absolutely did make blocks with different nickel content.
Great video guys, enjoy seeing the differences. Thanks for the vid
Tim I think I need a Cleveland in my life!
@@UnityMotorSportsGarage You sure do. If you ever come out to race this year, have a shortblock, sitting for the last 35 years, I would give you.. I almost wanted to put heads on it and see what happens with fire up...
Really looking forward to the 318 build
Thanks Mark! It's going to be fun...
Sbf in stock form isn’t an option imo. Want to build up the SBC ? Long rod? 18 degree heads? The Mopar already has them. Go forged piston, add boost, and it’s ready to make 6-800hp all day.
The 351 Windsor is a major player.. I have built many high hp Windsors that have lived way beyond expectations.. The LA Mopar is the most underrated in my opinion
Andy
I have no preference of brand myself but found myself only able to afford the small block chevy when i was in the army in Hawai'i although all of my friends ran big block mopars. I did put a challenger 8 3/4 in my camaro after breaking the 10 bolt. My 350 was only 3/10ths behind those build 440 mopars with mostly stock parts. I worked with small block fords in high school but the aftermarket support for sbc has been what has kept me hotrodding on my tight budget.
Yep gm makes it more affordable for everyone to play.
👍you guys have a lot of interesting stuff to sink in , can't wait to see what kind of stuff you pull out of your Hats . Good luck and stay Healthy
Excellent exam 👍! Thank you!
The big three produced some of the stoutest engines in the world regardless of how much knowledge or money you threw at them they always delivered. SAE ❤️
The LA Chrysler derives from the A block Plymouth, which started in 1956. The only differences between the LA and A blocks themselves are some steam holes, oil return, and pushrod notches in the valley (the A block, aka, "Poly" engines) for the polyspheric valve arrangement. You can mod poly heads to go on LA blocks, and LA heads to go on A blocks because they are so close to the same. LA being a lighter casting of the A. Deck height for A & LA is 9.6", but often as low as 9.58". Bore centers are 4.46".
Pumps are pumps......the Mopar probably has the best rod ratio stock with heads that are ok, the Ford Windsor is the lightest with plenty of support, the Chevy is most common from meat to potatoes.
The best Ford small block though is the Cleveland. I know it needs oiling mods but the heads flow like crazy from 2V to 4V. The Aussies know them well, and they've made 1000hp NA combos that are streetable
Agreed, I'm australian and my early years we were lucky enough to have access to clevelands and they were my weapon of choice. But I'm older now and have no brand loyalty. Me and my circle of friends have owned examples of most of the local v8,s available and they all have good points and bad points. But the modern aftermarket has answers to all the problems.
@@watsisbuttndo829 I became a fan of the Cleveland because of the Pantera and the 71-73 Mach I Mustangs ( and Mad Max and the original Gone in 60 Seconds ).
The 351C is a revelation, nothing runs like them.
@@bigboreracing356 the C secret is cam LSA and installed angle. Good seats are a must often overlooked.
@@bigboreracing356 gonna have to disagree.
@@bigboreracing356 not disagreeing they didn't rule the streets on numbers sold ,the small block chev had been on the radar over a decade before the cleveland turned up and then smog laws neutered it almost immediately. SBC has uncountable development hours on it and huge aftermarket. No argument that its a good unit. Disagree entirely that cleveland is a turd. And in fact will go another step further and state that the ford 400 is a frikkin diamond if you care enough to scrape off the factory layer of shite.
I've built a handful of S.B. Mopars. I think they make great street strip engines up to about 550 H.P. After that your looking at W style heads and valve train which are insanely expensive compared to the Chevy and Ford race stuff.
There are a few 408 small block Mopars here on youtube making well over 600hp without the W2 stuff . AFR now makes heads for them that flow 310CFM right out of the box .
@@HowardJrFord Didn't know, sounds good, I'll check it out!
@@HowardJrFord Hey I looked for the AFR heads you mentioned, no can find, tried AFR website too, nothing, what gives?
Really cool video. If it wasnt for the massive front timing cover And the wet intake, I would be playing with those instead of big block mopars 👍
Just found you guys Im a Chrysler guy. Love the comparisons. You guys taught me alot from just this video!! Thank you I Ill be loyal from here on out! From Ohio