Imagine, listening a guy talking about electronic ignition for 45 minutes,and cant listen to my wife for 5 minutes without falling asleep. You must be doing something ok UT.
It’s because Tony isn’t asking you what you want for dinner, ignoring your first three suggestions and then complaining you don’t have any ideas. “Well, what do you want, honey”? “I don’t know”. “But you don’t want ramen, Pho, Chinese, pizza, Mexican or Indian”? “No”. “Okay. Nothing from Asian or Latin America.” “No” “What about spaghetti or roast a chicken with veggies and mash potatoes”? “I guess” “Which one?” “I don’t know”. I’d rather listen to Tony talk about his last dermatology appointment than figure out dinner.
Hi Tony, this is a great conversation that should have been brought up a very long time ago. When I started in the trade as a tune up technician everthing was points. One thing that also wears out is the distributor cam lobes giving different point opening gaps from cylinder to cylinder. One of the reasons for electronic ignitions was to increase the spark firing times across the plug gap. The longer spark time was needed in order to keep the lean mixtures burning as they swirled around the combustion chamber. Spark times went from 1 1/4 milliseconds with .035 gaps to 2 1/2 milliseconds with .045 and greater gaps. Capacitive discharge ignitions have extremely short spark duration, only 1/8 of a millisecond and have a very difficult time keeping the flame going. This led to the multi spark idea, however I have never seen an explanation how three 1/8 ms sparks is supposed to be better than a single 2 1/2 ms one which, by the way is almost as long as the average 3 ms it takes for all of the mixture in the cylinder to completely burn. It's interesting that the OEM's that tried CDI (like Pontiac in the 60's) dropped it almost as fast as they could. Also the multi spark guys should put a switch on their boxes so it can be changed to a single spark so that a scope can synchronize and allow for diagnostics and cylinder balance tests. The GM HEI was almost to strong as it often would burn through the rotor and short out staight through to the shaft. The distributors also had a thin steel spacer washer between the gear and the bottom bushing that would stick if the car did not get regular oil maintenance and cut right through the shaft leaving you stranded. We pulled all distributors with every tune up, but the HEI also had the gear removed and the shaft pulled to check if was ok. The Ford Dura Spark was a good system as well. It's one biggest problem was the circuit board cracking in the module. The module was an aluminum box with sand and epoxy poured into it to seal and protect the electronics. Over time expansion and contraction with temperature changes would create cracks in the circuit board traces causing intermitant stalling. This was intermittant problem that was actually very easy to duplicate in the shop. Just unbolt the unit from the fender and with the engine running give the module a tap on the bottom with a small hammer and instant stall. Wish all intermittent problems were so easy. The Dura Spark was also unique in that 10 degrees of the advance curve was built into the module. Aftermarket modules did not have this so installing one led to loss of power and fuel economy. The Mopar system may not have had as big a punch to it but was very reliable. There was occasional failures of components but not often as the others. Probably about the same as a coil failure in point systems. The best aftermarket ignition system I ever came across was the Allison. This used an infrared light emitting diode and shutter in the distributor with an external module and coil. It had 3ms firing time during cranking and 2 1/2 to 2 3/4 ms firing time across the plug gap. Good for any number of cylinders and up to 12,000 rpm. It was developed by a professor Allison at a university in California. It later became the Crane Fireball Ignition and was awsome with an E-Core type coil. I saw a while back that someone else had it under a different name but I can't recall who it was at the moment. Keep up the good work Tony. Terry
@@rolandtamaccio3285 Roland, it is sad how much basic knowledge has been lost since cars jumped on the computer wagon. Diagnostics with hand held scanners mostly looks at the electronics but forgets that the internal combustion engine is still the same animal as it was 100 years ago. I learned to use a scope and gas analyzer in the 1970's and still own one today. Being able to see and measure what is happening in the combustion chamber, the ignition, fuel and exhaust in real time, as it is happening with analog equipment is lost to todays technicians. Relying on fault codes can often send you on a wild goose chase that ends up thowing parts at a problem that may not be needed. To me the data stream is more important to understanding a problem and leading to a solution. Computerized systems are very good at hiding internal engine problems as they try to keep it running no matter what. My mentor and friend Frank referred to the electroncs on a car as F.R.E.D. F-----g Ridiculus Electronic Device. Why does the service manual for my wifes 2015 Fiat 500L have to be 8,268 pages long? You only have to tell me how to remove the engine cover once, not over 300 times. Replace the battery and now I have to perform a battry reset, powerwindow module reset, throttle learn, etc., etc., etc. Change oil and I need a scanner to reset the oil reminder and turn out the dash light. Install an LED light bulb and the CAN buss freaks out. Leave a car sit for a few weaks and the battery goes dead from all the electronic drain on the system. We all want to work on our own cars but because of all the special tools required, software reprogramming that can only be done at the dealer, electrical breakout boxes required to test the electrical harness and connections we are forced to go back to the dealer and pay their inflated labour and parts rates. I think that after this rant I'm going to go out to the garage and do some more work on my 1967 Chrysler New Port Convertible. At least if a tail light doesn't work only need my 12 volt test light to fix it.
I had an MSD system and liked it. The theory behind it was more complete ignition, somewhat like the dual spark plugs on some Ford 2.3 liter engines. My '71 Ranchero smoothed out with it, but it was also over carbureted.
Terry, that's all really good info. I don't know if it's the same system but I had a British Ford (I'm in the UK) from 1989 which had the Dura Spark. I used to call it Arthur after the 70s trade unionists who had Britain on a 7 day week in the 70s. I fixed it by putting a sheet of aluminum behind it as a heat sink and screwing that to the inner fender. After that no problem.
From Norway: Cant't tell u how much I apreciate that u share your knowledge and experience. My Mark III had issues with both fuel and ignition. -both sorted thanks to u! This particular video made me replace the condenser in a fairly new distributor with the stock one. -solved ignition! Probably som cheap China-shait😀
I spent decades as a Mercruiser mechanic, mostly on the inline 4 and 6 cylinder engines. Back in the day, it was standard practice that a stern drive boat coming out of storage got new points, condenser, and plugs every season. When Mercruiser went to HEI distributors, that went away. We never touched them. But remember that these boats ran 143-165 degree thermostats and were surrounded by cool water. For ignition systems, it was like the Promised Land. I did install a couple of Mallory electronic distributors in two 4 cylinders, one to replace a worn-out points unit in an old 140, and one to replace a Delco electronic timing curve system in a 3-liter Lynx (spit and swear...) and never had to look at them again.
I know a few guys that used the HEI on offshore race motors, they said set and forget PS you were lucky the inlines had Delco distributors, the v8s had that rubbish mallory crap before they converted.
@@Onewheelordeal Thunderbolt IV has the advance curve built into the ignition module, there's no mechanical advance. And the TBI system ran open-loop with no need for an O2 sensor. MPI was open-loop as well, for a while. Boats never used vacuum advance, the duty-cycle is too high (very little vacuum while cruising).
I put a Mallory Unilite distributor in my Jeep CJ in the late 80s. Everyone said the module was unreliable and I should carry a spare, so I bought a spare module. I drove the Jeep over 100K miles between then and when I sold it in 2010. I still have the spare module in the drawer in my tool box. I replaced the cap/rotor once.
My brother installed those unilites in 1 or 2 trucks for my dads company. 1 we couldnt get it to work in a 3rd one. All i can say is that those trucks ran better with those
My pops dropped one in his 69 f100 street rod project in like 83 or 84 ( I was only like 5 or 6 then) and never had an issue with it until about 2014 when I refreshed everything and stuck in an msd box and thought I fried the optical on it... so I ordered a new one for $30. It's still in the road kit. I missed a ground conn but found it before the part arrived. Need to pull that fuckin box but just haven't wanted to deal w it.
Its pretty decent and sorta easy to troubleshoot. I see it on a lot of 80s and 90s era generators with ford power. The one that had no spark on me , and was in the sticks, had a bad box. (This was pre COVID) So I look up a local napa and cross my fingers. I told the guy it's for a generator so forget what kind of car this thing came in...ok hold on lemme get the veteran..... Dude asked me what color the plastic was where the wires went in. Blue. Ok dude I got one come on down. Awesome,cause I was 2hrs from the shop and we pride ourselves on getting a unit operational. The power wasn't out , but that's what it's for and folks don't have generators for no reason. Good stuff man, I'm a huge fan of Ford industrial engines. 2.3,300 and the beautiful turbo 460 are all some of the best industrial engines of days gone by. GM kinda took over around the early 2000s.
I used to work at a old bone yard back in the late 70s early 80s and we sold tons on those ignition modules . We had a 55 gallon drum full of them with each one marked from what they came off of & we had a shelf in the shop stacked full of them tagged with what each one came off of . They could be dead reliable but we had so many people coming in at times they must have had problems with them going bad on the road leaving people stranded . A old friend of mine his father stopped in to see if we had one for his Ford van and we did but I told him that these were known to burn out so if you can afford it but 2 of them and keep one as a spare in the van just in case the module takes a dump that way you can get it back up and running again . He never did come back again for a module after that but bought other parts from us for the van and other vehicles he had . I found out this friend of mine from way back then who lived about 2 miles from my parents house and I knew his whole family that he had committed suicide after his wife divorced him and left & took the kids and she brain washed the kids so bad that they wouldn't even come to see him after he tried to get them to come over for dinner to just talk & hang out & have a fire in the fire pit but they never gave him a chance & found out that someone else I new worked at the same place he did & that he didn't come into work & didn't call in & I was told that he never missed work so this person got a hold of his brother and he called the father and he had the police go out to the house with the father and they found him dead because he had hung himself. I wanted to go to the funeral but just couldn't make myself go because I didn't want to see the family in such pain after knowing them for so many years before I moved away . The only thing good about this is his ex wife will now be constantly reminded that what she told those kids and her brain washing them she's going to remember this for her whole life and unfortunately the kids as well who now will never get to see or talk to their father again and actually get to know him . I apologize for this not really being relavent to this video but after seeing the mention of the Ford style brain boxes it immediately brought me back to those days working in the bone yard and seeing his father at times coming into the shop to buy parts from us and what ultimately happened to my friend many years later and not seeing him or knowing where he was living at the time or even knowing that he had got married and had children.
You nailed it Tony, I always use points in my old fords. Petronix is fussy and likes 12v , I have found the resistor wire in fords ignition drops the voltage to 8 v and petronix doesn't always run well with that voltage drop. Petronix works better than points on worn out distributors with bad bushings, seems to be more forgiving, however I will always be using points in my old cruisers and as you say the echlin points are the best I have found lately...if electronic ignition fail you are screwed on the side of the road, points, even if worn will always get you home....good video Tony
My dad bought 2 mallory unilite systems for 2 of his company vehicles. This was circa 1978 or 1979. My brother and I had never worked on a distributor before in our lives until then. 1 vehicle worked awesome and the other made the engine idle sound rough, so we took the 1 out and put the stock points back in.
I stocked up an NOS gm points and condensers off ebay. I've been daily driving points for a while now. No issues. Your videos and info are a big reason I went back to points. Also, I've had a pertronix unit go bad. Thanks, UT.
we've got a pertronix in our old willys jeep right now...we carry a complete spare distributor in the toolbox under the passenger seat...just in case...a distributor swap in that jeep takes minutes....i have never liked to totally rely on electronics on older vehicles...especially out on the trail.
I installed an HEI in my 55 Canadian Pontiac 261 inch 6, with original mid eightys delco correct wires. It runs perfect, daily driver for nearly 5 years. No issues.
Once upon a time, I tried to teach myself how to hotwire my 67 Newport in my HS parking lot, and I jumped line power to the wrong wire. I smoked the points, and had to clean them off with a Leatherman (life was different in the 90s in Rural MT). I drove it for a week before I actually bought new points for it. I still have those burned points in an Echlin box from '97, in my garage right now. Still have the car, too. I don't think an electronic ignition would've taken as kindly to my youthful indiscretion.
AWESOME vid UT....So true on the factory pointless systems, I have a 73 Challenger (bought new) still running the same factory set up in it. The only thing I did to id is the coil, been using like that MALORY you show in the start of the video. The coil is like 40 years old, no issues to date.. MOPAR 4 EVER.
Hi Uncle Tony and Uncle Kathy! This is off-topic, but we all know that you are both dog lovers. Famous Cowboy Cook Kent Rollins beagle dog died. In Kent's emotional nice video today, he said: ""Angels come with wings. Some very special Angels come with fur...."" Nice words. Made my eyes tear up. The dog appeared in many of his videos as ""official camp food taster"" Chuck in Florida.
I always liked the Pertronix in place of the points in my 1969 Dodge Charger R/T with the 440, 1970 Ford LTD two door with the 429, and 1971Ford LTD Convertible with the 400. Never had any ignition issues and never had to worry about points ever again.
My '69 AMX had a Pertronix coil when I got it, then I upgraded to a Pertronix ignition module shortly thereafter. Kept the factory Delco-Remy distributor. The ballast resistor was repurposed for just the tach. Its insides were reworked, but it still has the original factory look on the outside.
In 1990 I dropped in an HEI in my 400 LeMans. It ran so much better than with the points distributor. Two or three miles later tehe engine quit, probably the module popped. Anyway, the reason for it running better with the HEI was the shot bushing in the points distributor, making it misfire, mostly at idle. So the worn bushing is a real thing, it's what makes so many old engines make fluff and puff sounds at idle.
Yep. My 66 Coronet has a worn distributor bushing and the points were bouncing all over the place. The Pertronix cured that and it runs mint. Unfortunately, I'm on my 2nd Pertronix. Not going to invest in a third. If it craps out, I'm going to figure out my options.
@@BillyLintzenich-wf7sk I never heard of anything that severe. I talked to Pertronix and they told me what kills the unit is anything above 15 volts. Not much margin for error if a rectifier goes in the alternator.
Something you should mention is that if you think you got an improvement you should measure it, 1/4 mile et increase or mpg increase. I bolted on an MSD box when I was in high school, I wanted more power didn’t have money so I went with this as one of my mods. I swore that it was faster, ran better but now that I’m older and able to analyze it I am pretty sure it was a placebo effect. Do not underestimate the placebo effect when playing with cars, you spend money to improve something, you want to justify it, you may think it is running better but in reality it made no difference.
Duraspark gave me the best service. Really good things. I could go to the junk yard and gut everything Duraspark regardless of what it was on, and adapt it to my FE and last 10 years.
Converted my original points distributor to Pertronix 10 plus years ago, no issues. I do however have all the old parts in the glove box just in case I need to do a roadside conversion back to the points setup. The problem I had with points was getting quality parts. The days of the Echlin or Blue Streak with the phenolic followers and good springs in them are gone.
I have a File Drawer full of 35 + year old Good OEM GM HEI Distributors i have saved over the years, have always used them in my street cars, and several years when we raced dirt track, never had a failure.
I always learn something from your videos, I should ad that I am 65 and have been working on cars since i was 14. I did however spend my career in the electronics repair business. While it is easy to always blame the manufacturer, and sometimes I do, you also have to look closely at the consumer. If the average consumer is mainly focused on the lowest cost, retailers will search for lower priced product. Vicious cycle. In the case of aftermarket ignitions for classic cars, I have to point the finger of blame on greed or pure ignorance. These companies could, with a competent design engineer, provide a product that will work under the extreme conditions of the average engine bay. The added cost of the proper circuit design would most likely be a few dollars. I for one would rather pay up front
My 63 Buick Riviera had an Allison XR700 ignition which later became Crane XR700 ignition. I had issues fouling plugs, after I found the ignition box under the hood I was able to open up the gap and now get slightly better mileage and less plug fouling.
Great advice Unk.....I use to like the CDI 's. Just driving around the plugs would get lead fouled and miss when you had your foot in it as the rpm came up. CDI really helped. Plus the points didn't burn
I'm glad you touched on Mallory Unilite distributors. I have one in my sbc for 30+ years now and never had an issue. Yes the original module is still in it. I drive it on the street and track days on a road coarse, countless laps. I only had to change the lower bushing last year due to wear. Yes they are bullet proof.
Just found this channel off the Edelbrock carb in a minute video from 5 years ago. Subbed, this guy's awesome, immensely great energy and smart at giving info while keeping it entertaining, this guy's got it all, great work!
I liked using MSD 5/6A, from 70's. They used points, but send low signal voltage over points, but spade terminal block, if failure just move leads and off on points. Still have 6A box, been on 5 engines.
I have 454/460 .030" overbore, recip. ass. are 4340 USA forgings crank/rods, 10.88 to 1 static compression, dynamic compression is 9 to1. Forged pistons with 5/64" rings/ Hastings, Edelbrock aluminum heads 100 cc angle milled. 750 cfm 3310 vac sec. Holley. 272/278 custom ground solid Isky Pro55 core on a 108 LSA, installed at 104 ICL. 510 hp @ 5900 rpm 510 and ft.lbs. tq, @ 3,900 rpm. For ignition [she] has an MSD Pro Billet 'Tach-Drive' with magnetic trigger, 6AL Box with Blaster coil firing through Moroso Ultra 40 ignition wires. Very reliable and lights the fire. This is in a C3 Stingray Corvette. Great video UTG, Cheers!
Hi Uncle Tony, I have been watching the Big Richard build with Dr Art, Maybe you and he could dedicate a video to getting the 318 motor started and a few of the last items filling the checklist. It was a great idea for power tour and would enjoy seeing that old bird take flight again soon. Dr. Art poured his heart into that motor and the relevant items included along with your trans build, It deserves a close it out finally soon.
I just use Duraspark and heat sink TFI pieces on my Fords. The 390 could punch 510 hp and 488 ft lbs on the 93 pump with a daily solid 282S and headers.
@39:55 Yea most will be bulletproof, except anything with duraspark 2 on it. Then you need to carry an extra ICM everywhere you go. So glad i got rid of that cj5
Another great video I like the point where you’re talking about the gm hei distributors learned a few things on that and I always hate seeing them on other engines they don’t belong to there so massive and ugly ruins the look of a good hot rod motor.
Lol.. perfect example of what I did with my 225. Dad dropped a points dist in it because he didn't understand the original chrysler electronic ignition wiring. When I got the truck, (ran very rough) the distributor wobbled bad enough the factory rotor would hit the cap and snap the tip. So I pulled the dist. Put an electronic system back in it. Still running it today. Runs fine, always hits.
Ok, and? Id rather pull a working Delco module out of a used distributor, and put that in my daily driver than go buy something new from AutoZone or O'Reilly's. I've had more bad new electronics in the last 5 years than I had in the 20 years previous. At least they were still using decent materials to make it in the 80s
Great stuff Tony. I wholeheartedly agree, stick with the OEM design and only upgrade parts when other engine performance upgrades require it. I mostly work on either really old stuff (old tractors with points and magnetos) or slightly newer stuff from the 80s and 90s. IMHO the single best factory ignition system in terms of robustness and reliability was the Ford EDIS. They have a simple crank trigger wheel and vr sensor, no sensitive distributor pickups, no bushings to go bad, multiple coils to fire pairs of cylinders. And they're relatively cheap to repair unlike more modern coil on plug setups.
My 440 D150 had points and ran great. I put a Petronix in without a ballast resister. The truck starts faster than anything I have ever driven.
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As a busted-up, dead broke old man, it is extremely unlikely that I will ever drive again, nor spin any wrenches. IMMEDIATELY clicked on this. Thanks, Tony. P.S., My all-time preferred domestic ignition was a Mallory Bluepoint, dual point distributor fed by an Accel Supercoil.
Would be good if you could do some more regarding performance ignition especially magnetos, the scintilla vertex/ronco magnetos seem to me that the quality of those units (the old ones) is second to none
I totally agree with you, I work on mainly british cars from the 50s,60s, and 70s, and I have replaced loads of dodgy electronic ignition units back to points. Mainly due to the electronic units getting too hot, resulting in the hardening of the heat sink paste and magnet brake down, the heat eventually fries the units internal components.
VERY Good advice for factory igntion systems. I have a stock 68 GTO 400 With the original points distributor and it runs like new... Around 68 k miles BTW I recently asked about upgrading to the GM HEI at my GTO club Meeting the they said Keep your stock points distributor!!!
This is another great video of tips and tricks, that were seldom shared when high end tech was not invented? I still learn from Uncle Tony's videos as I relate him to my father's knowledge when I was growing up. He also liked points over newer style electronic ignition systems .
I ran a Mallory unilite distributor for many years in the late 80’s. Never had an issue. I’ve used the pertronix drop in unit and it worked fine for me. It’s a crap-shoot with pertronix. You might get a good one, might get a bad one.
@jamessharp9790 1 time a year for my ford with points. And that was only because I changed them 1 time a year. I would check timing a few time a year' just before summer and winter. If timing spot on then so are points (1 degree dwell change is 2 degree timing change). I ran more timing in winter.
Thank you for ALL of your awsome detailed videos. You have a way of explaining material like no other. I always enjoy watching all of your content! Keep it going brotha.😊
i own an air cooled VW, i run a OEM Bosch Eletronic iginition on it, never had any problems since i bougth the car (about a year ago) tho i do think now and then that if that ignition module fails am done for (as i cant find a new one to have as spare) so yea, i do see me going back to points in the future if i cant keep this iginition going
Great video!A lot of good information,especially since I just bought a complete HEI system with separate coil for my ‘56 Pontiac.I suspected a worn points distributor because my dwell would intermittently fluctuate.My new distributor came with a GM type 4 pin module mounted on the side.I was thinking of swapping it with an NOS GM module but I didn’t.Now,I think I’ll pick one up.I did this years ago with an Accel HEI distributor.The Accel module died after a year or so.At the time I was still able to go to the dealer and pick one up.Never had a failure after that.
I ran a small block chevy to 8k on a pertronics stage 3 in a stick shift camaro 4 passes 😅 then went back to my grumpy jenkins book, did his magic to the points distributor, deavcon in the body no vacume advanced Mallory x points and solid core wires. More work to the mechanical advance ,springs making the slot larger worked for years
Mallory uniltes are fantastic! I put a dual pointy l in a 318 back in 1981. I ran dual point to 86 then converted it to a unilite and ran that old distributor until 2003 and then put a new unilite distributor in it. Back in 2017 I shorted the unilite eye wire hit header:( I took the old unilite cell out of the old distributor and put it in no issues!!! Amazing stuff!!!
I've been installing them (pertronix) for 20+ years in maybe 30-40 cars. Never had a failure or complaint. I do so because my customers have no idea what points are or where they are. In that case, where I know it won't get maintained, I really do not have a choice.
back in the day we ran lots of HEIs , a few MSDs , one or two mallorys dual points the ford duraspark kits , and the mopar --either points or electronic . the HEI can really romp if its set up to the GM race manual spcs --i seen up twist up so high that the counterweights ate through the posts-- anything electronic these days is just a crap shoot. best i can recall about the MSDs is they put out but were bad to blow up coils . for the street it was strictly OEM stuff--even the points ran good --back when you could get good points
I have seen a VERY few people run a Pertronix ignition system totally problem free for thousands of miles. These were old units, being run on vehicles that were often daily driven, and they all had something in common. They all had beautiful wiring front to back. One person at a car show was telling me he hand wired his car front to back with all new, more modern connectors when and where possible, and brand new original style plugs where needed. Every other vehicle I have seen with a Pertronix ignition tended to be trailer queens and parade cars that did not get driven much, if at all, and I have seen them fail. There was a guy with a 440 Dodge Challenger (swapped from a 318) that broke down just as he pulled into a show I went to. Someone helped him swap to a points ignition he bought at the swap meet, and he was back up and running before the end of the show. Most people I have ever seen with daily driven, or at least often driven, classic cars tend to stick with points, or OEM electronic ignition.
This was incredibly helpful. Also stock ignition systems well tuned are a place to start. Experiment from there and take dependability into account when working on a daily driver. I have a 78 Cherokee that came with a badass ignition and I returned it to stock, and it ran better.
Once again, great points from Tony, no pun intended. However, I do have a slightly different view on the MSD ignition, which worked well at cleaning up my overcarbureted '71 302-powered Ranchero. There is a lot of truth to Tony's view that it will cover up problems; my '71 was overcarbureted. The basic theory behind an MSD is that multiple sparks in an ignition cycle will help ignite fuel/air mixture that failed to burn properly. Given how slight imperfections will always be there, it can be a great help, but as Tony pointed out, if it helps noticeably, do try to find out what is going on. I can also see where it would clean up emissions, but many of us on here aren't very concerned with that. Probably the best strategy with MSD is to tune as best as possible with it disabled, then reenable it for reliability. I enjoyed the way it smoothed out the idle on that '71. Yep, points have a better chance of surviving solar flares and EMPs than anything electronically controlled; nothing to fry. They give you a signal before going kaput, whereas electronic ignitions generally die an instant and often unexpected death.
I have a '78 318 Dodge pickup plow truck with a Davison unified HEI conversion. I had to dent the firewall which I was unhappy about. I did not open the plug gaps and it absolutely worked perfect
Tony, I agree with everything you said on ignition systems except one thing. When I was 15 I used to hang around with this kid that was 16 and had a 66 Impala with a 350/350 in it. He asked me to take a look at it because It didn't run very well. It would bog down at 2500 rpm or so, but only under load and driving down the road. After looking it over and trying to figure out what was going on with it I finally asked if it was the original motor in the car. Him and his Dad had put a 350 in it out of a 84 impala and when they were pulling the motor out of the donor car they broke the distributor cap. His Dad put in the points and condensor system from the original 350. I put the hei distributor in it and it ran perfect. The only thing I could figure out was the 84 motor had alot less compression compared to the original 66 engine. Sometimes you shouldn't go backwards with the ignition system. I've never heard of it before or since but it cured his problem with the engine. Ran good after that.
I have a 70 AAR "Cuda. Installed Mopar electronic ignition in the '70s. The epoxy potting compound has been creeping out of it down the firewall very slowly ever since. I have a vintage spare unit in the drawer, and it's been doing the same thing. So much for NOS!
Um we might be in different worlds Tony. I just do not see the old basic street rods anymore. Me building one but don't see any. Me doing a simple hot rodded 383 and an 833 4spd with a dana in a '60 Fury. Ignition will be the basic mopar performance distributor and a carter AVS.
Ahh I've never had a problem with a HEI conversion. The one I'm running now cost $13 from rock auto. Also people are still replacing them in factory gm vehicles and not having problems. Also for $13 you can carry 5 of them in the glove box.
1950 IH with sbf 302 and HEI swap. 3 failed new modules later, I raided an old OEM module and never had a problem. SBC 327 with old Crane ignition conversion has an adjustable Rev limiter works flawlessly 25 years
I worked as a diehard Chevy guy at a parts store in the mid 2000’s. Used to stock a new Accel HEI distributor right on the shelf, made in Canada. I could always count on that part to give my customers a reliable conversion or replacement for HEI. They shipped that production to China, and boy did that go to hell in a hurry. I don’t know if they still make them, but Standard motor Products used to make point conversions like Petronix that were very reliable. If they are still available it might be worth a test.
STANDARD BRAND, does still make.. ignition products.. But they very.. built in etc, to price point,, T series is the Economy option.. same part number, just add T in front etc.. I've seen, USA, Mexico, Taiwan, Japan!.. in both T and Non ... Blue Streak is gone now.. I trust Accel Plug wires, and would beyond that.. MSD street Series brand is.. absolute crap.. I've also sold Parts for years.. O'Reilly's and even AutoZone, Classic Industries, to wholesale Parts Distributor.. My daily driver is a 68 Dart Grandma special Slant6 to V8 swap, Accel Coil/Wires, I converted a Spector Brand Points distributor, after.... 9 failures .. 9! Warranty exchanges... I only got to do so because I was management.. Swapped to Petronix... Running now for 7 years.. plus.. everyday and everywhere... I got lucky... Cheers from Orange County California 🇺🇸 @∅
Did many of those ignition conversions not from points but from mid 70s Chrysler lean burn systems that were garbage .Never had one fail and come back. Remember they had 2 different colored ignition modules you would bolt on the firewall backdating to standard ignition with a vacuum advance .They ran so much better and customers were really happy.
I have a friend who put one of those Pertronics ignitions in a old car he was putting back on the road. Drove it only a couple of miles before it crapped out. I told him to replace everything with the old points and condenser setup. It has worked flawlessly for over a year now. Simple is often better.
Yep.. Mallory Unilite on my El Camino since about 1980.... ( 72 el camino 350 ).... has a Mallory Promaster # 29440 coil. On my second engine since 2001 but same Unilite... change cap/rotor every 10,000 miles.
Years ago, I had a 1986 Mustang GT hatchback 5.0 auto, 3.27 gears. Only mods were a shift kit, under bumper ram air, 13-degree timing, an MSD coil and 6A box with the plug in wire set up. At the track, it would go consistent 14.90 to 15.0 at 87 to 89 mph with 2.10 60-foot times. One time, I decided to unplug the MSD to see how much slower the car would go. Next pass, 2.07 60-foot time, 14.89 at 89.77 mph. That being said, hot ignitions are good for high power engines. More stock engines, not so much.
Great video sir. I still own 2 vehicles with points distributors. I still think it's worth it. I'm 62 and I still remember how it's done. I can still rebuild a Motorcraft 2 bbl. With my eyes closed hahaha.
Exactly right on finding stock factory electronic distbutors for regular street use. Built the 327 in my '67 Impala in 1991 - went to the junkyard and pulld an HEI out of another small block Chevy and put it in......30 years later it's still running that same distributor! You'll never get that from the new stuff thats being sold today.
I run the Summit Racing billet Mopar electric conversion kit SUM-851003-1 on the 318 I built and installed in my 87 Dakota. I’m running the FiTech EFI CompCams CL20-222-3 cam and KB flat top pistons. It’s a little over 300hp. I have over 8000 miles on it so far and no problems.
25 years ago the Wells brand ignition box for all my Jeeps would fry in a few months, so I bought all the OEM I could from junkyards. I ran out, So I converted to Ford TFI using factory 302 parts. 340 thousand miles later Tony tells it true. OEM only.
I still run the stock single points ignition in my 1969 Charger R/T SE survivor. 440 Magnum/Auto Unrestored/unrebuilt and still in V/Fine original condition..... the single points fire first time every time with no issues. Just say'in.... if it ain't broke why fix it ?
I personally been using the Progression Ignition GM Hei distributor. It's very reliable and adjustable in any application you may need. In my research, I found exactly what Uncle Tony's states about the pertronix.
Back in the 1980's, when I had a 72 Gran Torino Sport and was building a high performance 400 for it, I wanted something easier to maintain for ignition too. I ended up converting a stock Ford single point distributor to electronic ignition using an Allison XR700 optically triggered electronic ignition kit. It worked great.
There’s no gap in his knowledge, but he dwells on about his points.
I see watt you did there! lol
Booyah! 😅
Ohman, you are on a comp now.
I see what you did there : ) lol
And his nickname is ole sparky.
I am more than thankful for Uncle Tony's site. Great personality, and fun learnable knowledge. Luv the guy !!!
Imagine, listening a guy talking about electronic ignition for 45 minutes,and cant listen to my wife for 5 minutes without falling asleep. You must be doing something ok UT.
Hey, the stuff is interesting for a logical mind...
@@markdrake2715 he talks too much
Oh no I never talk with her. I just screw her, wipe my shite off on the sheets, and leave. What a relationship!!!
It’s because Tony isn’t asking you what you want for dinner, ignoring your first three suggestions and then complaining you don’t have any ideas.
“Well, what do you want, honey”?
“I don’t know”.
“But you don’t want ramen, Pho, Chinese, pizza, Mexican or Indian”?
“No”.
“Okay. Nothing from Asian or Latin America.”
“No”
“What about spaghetti or roast a chicken with veggies and mash potatoes”?
“I guess”
“Which one?”
“I don’t know”.
I’d rather listen to Tony talk about his last dermatology appointment than figure out dinner.
Hi Tony, this is a great conversation that should have been brought up a very long time ago. When I started in the trade as a tune up technician everthing was points. One thing that also wears out is the distributor cam lobes giving different point opening gaps from cylinder to cylinder. One of the reasons for electronic ignitions was to increase the spark firing times across the plug gap. The longer spark time was needed in order to keep the lean mixtures burning as they swirled around the combustion chamber. Spark times went from 1 1/4 milliseconds with .035 gaps to 2 1/2 milliseconds with .045 and greater gaps. Capacitive discharge ignitions have extremely short spark duration, only 1/8 of a millisecond and have a very difficult time keeping the flame going. This led to the multi spark idea, however I have never seen an explanation how three 1/8 ms sparks is supposed to be better than a single 2 1/2 ms one which, by the way is almost as long as the average 3 ms it takes for all of the mixture in the cylinder to completely burn. It's interesting that the OEM's that tried CDI (like Pontiac in the 60's) dropped it almost as fast as they could. Also the multi spark guys should put a switch on their boxes so it can be changed to a single spark so that a scope can synchronize and allow for diagnostics and cylinder balance tests.
The GM HEI was almost to strong as it often would burn through the rotor and short out staight through to the shaft. The distributors also had a thin steel spacer washer between the gear and the bottom bushing that would stick if the car did not get regular oil maintenance and cut right through the shaft leaving you stranded. We pulled all distributors with every tune up, but the HEI also had the gear removed and the shaft pulled to check if was ok.
The Ford Dura Spark was a good system as well. It's one biggest problem was the circuit board cracking in the module. The module was an aluminum box with sand and epoxy poured into it to seal and protect the electronics. Over time expansion and contraction with temperature changes would create cracks in the circuit board traces causing intermitant stalling. This was intermittant problem that was actually very easy to duplicate in the shop. Just unbolt the unit from the fender and with the engine running give the module a tap on the bottom with a small hammer and instant stall. Wish all intermittent problems were so easy. The Dura Spark was also unique in that 10 degrees of the advance curve was built into the module. Aftermarket modules did not have this so installing one led to loss of power and fuel economy.
The Mopar system may not have had as big a punch to it but was very reliable. There was occasional failures of components but not often as the others. Probably about the same as a coil failure in point systems.
The best aftermarket ignition system I ever came across was the Allison. This used an infrared light emitting diode and shutter in the distributor with an external module and coil. It had 3ms firing time during cranking and 2 1/2 to 2 3/4 ms firing time across the plug gap. Good for any number of cylinders and up to 12,000 rpm. It was developed by a professor Allison at a university in California. It later became the Crane Fireball Ignition and was awsome with an E-Core type coil. I saw a while back that someone else had it under a different name but I can't recall who it was at the moment. Keep up the good work Tony.
Terry
Terry , it's amazing how rare that ms knowledge is ,,, !
@@rolandtamaccio3285 Roland, it is sad how much basic knowledge has been lost since cars jumped on the computer wagon. Diagnostics with hand held scanners mostly looks at the electronics but forgets that the internal combustion engine is still the same animal as it was 100 years ago. I learned to use a scope and gas analyzer in the 1970's and still own one today. Being able to see and measure what is happening in the combustion chamber, the ignition, fuel and exhaust in real time, as it is happening with analog equipment is lost to todays technicians. Relying on fault codes can often send you on a wild goose chase that ends up thowing parts at a problem that may not be needed. To me the data stream is more important to understanding a problem and leading to a solution. Computerized systems are very good at hiding internal engine problems as they try to keep it running no matter what.
My mentor and friend Frank referred to the electroncs on a car as F.R.E.D. F-----g Ridiculus Electronic Device. Why does the service manual for my wifes 2015 Fiat 500L have to be 8,268 pages long? You only have to tell me how to remove the engine cover once, not over 300 times. Replace the battery and now I have to perform a battry reset, powerwindow module reset, throttle learn, etc., etc., etc. Change oil and I need a scanner to reset the oil reminder and turn out the dash light. Install an LED light bulb and the CAN buss freaks out. Leave a car sit for a few weaks and the battery goes dead from all the electronic drain on the system.
We all want to work on our own cars but because of all the special tools required, software reprogramming that can only be done at the dealer, electrical breakout boxes required to test the electrical harness and connections we are forced to go back to the dealer and pay their inflated labour and parts rates.
I think that after this rant I'm going to go out to the garage and do some more work on my 1967 Chrysler New Port Convertible. At least if a tail light doesn't work only need my 12 volt test light to fix it.
I had an MSD system and liked it. The theory behind it was more complete ignition, somewhat like the dual spark plugs on some Ford 2.3 liter engines. My '71 Ranchero smoothed out with it, but it was also over carbureted.
Terry, that's all really good info. I don't know if it's the same system but I had a British Ford (I'm in the UK) from 1989 which had the Dura Spark. I used to call it Arthur after the 70s trade unionists who had Britain on a 7 day week in the 70s. I fixed it by putting a sheet of aluminum behind it as a heat sink and screwing that to the inner fender. After that no problem.
That should have been a 3 day week, not a 7. 😂
From Norway: Cant't tell u how much I apreciate that u share your knowledge and experience. My Mark III had issues with both fuel and ignition. -both sorted thanks to u! This particular video made me replace the condenser in a fairly new distributor with the stock one. -solved ignition! Probably som cheap China-shait😀
My Chrysler Chrome box has been in constant use for 22 years now.
Zero issues!
I spent decades as a Mercruiser mechanic, mostly on the inline 4 and 6 cylinder engines. Back in the day, it was standard practice that a stern drive boat coming out of storage got new points, condenser, and plugs every season. When Mercruiser went to HEI distributors, that went away. We never touched them. But remember that these boats ran 143-165 degree thermostats and were surrounded by cool water. For ignition systems, it was like the Promised Land. I did install a couple of Mallory electronic distributors in two 4 cylinders, one to replace a worn-out points unit in an old 140, and one to replace a Delco electronic timing curve system in a 3-liter Lynx (spit and swear...) and never had to look at them again.
My 1974 120hp 4cyl Mercruiser bought new still has the original points, never touched.
Points will rust and not get contact
I know a few guys that used the HEI on offshore race motors, they said set and forget
PS you were lucky the inlines had Delco distributors, the v8s had that rubbish mallory crap before they converted.
Crazy that the HEI made the plugs go from lasting one year to maybe 10 if you never touched them again
@@Onewheelordeal Thunderbolt IV has the advance curve built into the ignition module, there's no mechanical advance. And the TBI system ran open-loop with no need for an O2 sensor. MPI was open-loop as well, for a while.
Boats never used vacuum advance, the duty-cycle is too high (very little vacuum while cruising).
Outstanding video - this is what Uncle Tony does better than anyone. Tons of detail, useful, applicable to most of us, and easy to follow.
You are speaking the words straight out of my father's mouth UTG and proven 100 times over.
Great Stuff as always man.
I put a Mallory Unilite distributor in my Jeep CJ in the late 80s. Everyone said the module was unreliable and I should carry a spare, so I bought a spare module. I drove the Jeep over 100K miles between then and when I sold it in 2010. I still have the spare module in the drawer in my tool box. I replaced the cap/rotor once.
My brother installed those unilites in 1 or 2 trucks for my dads company. 1 we couldnt get it to work in a 3rd one. All i can say is that those trucks ran better with those
My pops dropped one in his 69 f100 street rod project in like 83 or 84 ( I was only like 5 or 6 then) and never had an issue with it until about 2014 when I refreshed everything and stuck in an msd box and thought I fried the optical on it... so I ordered a new one for $30. It's still in the road kit. I missed a ground conn but found it before the part arrived. Need to pull that fuckin box but just haven't wanted to deal w it.
Allegedly the ones you buy new now are chineseum basically a bad copy of the Ford neverspark but the OG unilites are sought after by carb guys.
THIS is the type of video I like to see you put out! AWESOME 👏👏👏
On Point!
My mechanic told me to keep my stock Motorcraft ignition for my 1989 Fox body when I wanted to upgrade it. I have no issues with it.
Its pretty decent and sorta easy to troubleshoot.
I see it on a lot of 80s and 90s era generators with ford power.
The one that had no spark on me , and was in the sticks, had a bad box.
(This was pre COVID)
So I look up a local napa and cross my fingers.
I told the guy it's for a generator so forget what kind of car this thing came in...ok hold on lemme get the veteran.....
Dude asked me what color the plastic was where the wires went in.
Blue.
Ok dude I got one come on down.
Awesome,cause I was 2hrs from the shop and we pride ourselves on getting a unit operational.
The power wasn't out , but that's what it's for and folks don't have generators for no reason.
Good stuff man, I'm a huge fan of Ford industrial engines.
2.3,300 and the beautiful turbo 460 are all some of the best industrial engines of days gone by.
GM kinda took over around the early 2000s.
I used to work at a old bone yard back in the late 70s early 80s and we sold tons on those ignition modules . We had a 55 gallon drum full of them with each one marked from what they came off of & we had a shelf in the shop stacked full of them tagged with what each one came off of . They could be dead reliable but we had so many people coming in at times they must have had problems with them going bad on the road leaving people stranded . A old friend of mine his father stopped in to see if we had one for his Ford van and we did but I told him that these were known to burn out so if you can afford it but 2 of them and keep one as a spare in the van just in case the module takes a dump that way you can get it back up and running again . He never did come back again for a module after that but bought other parts from us for the van and other vehicles he had . I found out this friend of mine from way back then who lived about 2 miles from my parents house and I knew his whole family that he had committed suicide after his wife divorced him and left & took the kids and she brain washed the kids so bad that they wouldn't even come to see him after he tried to get them to come over for dinner to just talk & hang out & have a fire in the fire pit but they never gave him a chance & found out that someone else I new worked at the same place he did & that he didn't come into work & didn't call in & I was told that he never missed work so this person got a hold of his brother and he called the father and he had the police go out to the house with the father and they found him dead because he had hung himself. I wanted to go to the funeral but just couldn't make myself go because I didn't want to see the family in such pain after knowing them for so many years before I moved away . The only thing good about this is his ex wife will now be constantly reminded that what she told those kids and her brain washing them she's going to remember this for her whole life and unfortunately the kids as well who now will never get to see or talk to their father again and actually get to know him . I apologize for this not really being relavent to this video but after seeing the mention of the Ford style brain boxes it immediately brought me back to those days working in the bone yard and seeing his father at times coming into the shop to buy parts from us and what ultimately happened to my friend many years later and not seeing him or knowing where he was living at the time or even knowing that he had got married and had children.
You nailed it Tony, I always use points in my old fords. Petronix is fussy and likes 12v , I have found the resistor wire in fords ignition drops the voltage to 8 v and petronix doesn't always run well with that voltage drop. Petronix works better than points on worn out distributors with bad bushings, seems to be more forgiving, however I will always be using points in my old cruisers and as you say the echlin points are the best I have found lately...if electronic ignition fail you are screwed on the side of the road, points, even if worn will always get you home....good video Tony
I love this guy, he is a real treasure. I wish he could work on my hot rod 63 Biscayne.
My dad bought 2 mallory unilite systems for 2 of his company vehicles. This was circa 1978 or 1979. My brother and I had never worked on a distributor before in our lives until then. 1 vehicle worked awesome and the other made the engine idle sound rough, so we took the 1 out and put the stock points back in.
Whoa … a rare moment of Vintage Chevy-ness as a comparative measure used in “ CONTEXT “ ….
Thanks UT ✊🏼
I stocked up an NOS gm points and condensers off ebay. I've been daily driving points for a while now. No issues. Your videos and info are a big reason I went back to points. Also, I've had a pertronix unit go bad. Thanks, UT.
I had one go bad, too. Now I'm into them for $300. If the 2nd one goes bad, that's it, I'm done with them.
we've got a pertronix in our old willys jeep right now...we carry a complete spare distributor in the toolbox under the passenger seat...just in case...a distributor swap in that jeep takes minutes....i have never liked to totally rely on electronics on older vehicles...especially out on the trail.
I installed an HEI in my 55 Canadian Pontiac 261 inch 6, with original mid eightys delco correct wires. It runs perfect, daily driver for nearly 5 years. No issues.
I'll say it again: Uncle Tony is the Paul Harrell of engine building.
Two G.O.A.T.'s
Paul harvey too
@@rctopfueler2841 Paul Harrell is the Chuck Norris of shooting. He is in poor health now.☹
I could listen to these guys all day. Wish they could do a colab. Paul has a couple nice classics!
I sure hope Uncle Tony stays in good health. :(
RIP Paul.
@@toby2581there’s several cures for the sickness Paul died of. I’m sure UT knows some of these.
Once upon a time, I tried to teach myself how to hotwire my 67 Newport in my HS parking lot, and I jumped line power to the wrong wire. I smoked the points, and had to clean them off with a Leatherman (life was different in the 90s in Rural MT). I drove it for a week before I actually bought new points for it. I still have those burned points in an Echlin box from '97, in my garage right now. Still have the car, too. I don't think an electronic ignition would've taken as kindly to my youthful indiscretion.
AWESOME vid UT....So true on the factory pointless systems, I have a 73 Challenger (bought new) still running the same factory set up in it. The only thing I did to id is the coil, been using like that MALORY you show in the start of the video. The coil is like 40 years old, no issues to date.. MOPAR 4 EVER.
Hi Uncle Tony and Uncle Kathy!
This is off-topic, but we all know that you are both dog lovers. Famous Cowboy Cook Kent Rollins beagle dog died. In Kent's emotional nice video today, he said:
""Angels come with wings. Some very special Angels come with fur...."" Nice words. Made my eyes tear up. The dog appeared in many of his videos as ""official camp food taster""
Chuck in Florida.
The Sun distributor machines are handy if you can find one.
Are talking about those brown little boxes that were mounted on a inner fender and wired up to your dizzy and elsewhere?
Please keep making these kind of videos. I want to learn as much as I can.
Thank you, Charles F. Kettering, for an awesome ignition system.
Made up for that little episode with the Copper-Cooled engines in the Oaklands and Chevys...
I just learned about that guy like yesterday
@@nicholasagnew2792i live in michigan. Ive seen pictures of him and theres a high school with the same last name
I always liked the Pertronix in place of the points in my 1969 Dodge Charger R/T with the 440, 1970 Ford LTD two door with the 429, and 1971Ford LTD Convertible with the 400. Never had any ignition issues and never had to worry about points ever again.
My '69 AMX had a Pertronix coil when I got it, then I upgraded to a Pertronix ignition module shortly thereafter. Kept the factory Delco-Remy distributor. The ballast resistor was repurposed for just the tach. Its insides were reworked, but it still has the original factory look on the outside.
I’m running a Mallory Unilight with mechanical advance on my 393 stroker Cleveland at about 450 Hp in my street 1970 Mach 1
In 1990 I dropped in an HEI in my 400 LeMans. It ran so much better than with the points distributor. Two or three miles later tehe engine quit, probably the module popped. Anyway, the reason for it running better with the HEI was the shot bushing in the points distributor, making it misfire, mostly at idle. So the worn bushing is a real thing, it's what makes so many old engines make fluff and puff sounds at idle.
Yep. My 66 Coronet has a worn distributor bushing and the points were bouncing all over the place. The Pertronix cured that and it runs mint. Unfortunately, I'm on my 2nd Pertronix. Not going to invest in a third. If it craps out, I'm going to figure out my options.
For a year now I've run a points distributor in my 1984 Caprice and it runs beautifully
@@LongIslandMoparsived heard on here that ppl have had their cars catch on fire because of the pertronix units
@@BillyLintzenich-wf7sk I never heard of anything that severe. I talked to Pertronix and they told me what kills the unit is anything above 15 volts. Not much margin for error if a rectifier goes in the alternator.
Something you should mention is that if you think you got an improvement you should measure it, 1/4 mile et increase or mpg increase. I bolted on an MSD box when I was in high school, I wanted more power didn’t have money so I went with this as one of my mods. I swore that it was faster, ran better but now that I’m older and able to analyze it I am pretty sure it was a placebo effect. Do not underestimate the placebo effect when playing with cars, you spend money to improve something, you want to justify it, you may think it is running better but in reality it made no difference.
This is why I only focus on making it sound cool and continue running 😅
You could just wash it, that can make it run better too
The butt Dyno never lies.
the placebo is also very real when it comes to feeling like something is wrong with the car!
@@Videoswithsoarin yes it is
Duraspark gave me the best service. Really good things. I could go to the junk yard and gut everything Duraspark regardless of what it was on, and adapt it to my FE and last 10 years.
Converted my original points distributor to Pertronix 10 plus years ago, no issues. I do however have all the old parts in the glove box just in case I need to do a roadside conversion back to the points setup.
The problem I had with points was getting quality parts. The days of the Echlin or Blue Streak with the phenolic followers and good springs in them are gone.
My experience is the same. Original parts in the glove box. 15 years later and I've never needed to open them.
I have a File Drawer full of 35 + year old Good OEM GM HEI Distributors i have saved over the years, have always used them in my street cars, and several years when we raced dirt track, never had a failure.
I have a 1964 Ford f250 pickup and have had Pertronix for 20 years and have had no problems.
I always learn something from your videos, I should ad that I am 65 and have been working on cars since i was 14. I did however spend my career in the electronics repair business. While it is easy to always blame the manufacturer, and sometimes I do, you also have to look closely at the consumer. If the average consumer is mainly focused on the lowest cost, retailers will search for lower priced product. Vicious cycle. In the case of aftermarket ignitions for classic cars, I have to point the finger of blame on greed or pure ignorance. These companies could, with a competent design engineer, provide a product that will work under the extreme conditions of the average engine bay. The added cost of the proper circuit design would most likely be a few dollars. I for one would rather pay up front
I put a Pertronix II Igniter on my stock 65 F100, 352ci. Best thing I ever did for it
When an episode starts with “let’s talk ignition systems..” I go ahead and hit the like button immediately
My 63 Buick Riviera had an Allison XR700 ignition which later became Crane XR700 ignition. I had issues fouling plugs, after I found the ignition box under the hood I was able to open up the gap and now get slightly better mileage and less plug fouling.
Great advice Unk.....I use to like the CDI 's. Just driving around the plugs would get lead fouled and miss when you had your foot in it as the rpm came up. CDI really helped. Plus the points didn't burn
I'm glad you touched on Mallory Unilite distributors. I have one in my sbc for 30+ years now and never had an issue. Yes the original module is still in it. I drive it on the street and track days on a road coarse, countless laps. I only had to change the lower bushing last year due to wear. Yes they are bullet proof.
Just found this channel off the Edelbrock carb in a minute video from 5 years ago. Subbed, this guy's awesome, immensely great energy and smart at giving info while keeping it entertaining, this guy's got it all, great work!
I liked using MSD 5/6A, from 70's. They used points, but send low signal voltage over points, but spade terminal block, if failure just move leads and off on points. Still have 6A box, been on 5 engines.
I have 454/460 .030" overbore, recip. ass. are 4340 USA forgings crank/rods, 10.88 to 1 static compression, dynamic compression is 9 to1. Forged pistons with 5/64" rings/ Hastings, Edelbrock aluminum heads 100 cc angle milled. 750 cfm 3310 vac sec. Holley. 272/278 custom ground solid Isky Pro55 core on a 108 LSA, installed at 104 ICL. 510 hp @ 5900 rpm 510 and ft.lbs. tq, @ 3,900 rpm. For ignition [she] has an MSD Pro Billet 'Tach-Drive' with magnetic trigger, 6AL Box with Blaster coil firing through Moroso Ultra 40 ignition wires. Very reliable and lights the fire. This is in a C3 Stingray Corvette. Great video UTG, Cheers!
Thanks for taking the time to drop some knowledge on us uncle. Keep up the good work
20 minutes in you got me on that siren. I'm on my way home about 85 on the interstate😂😂
Hi Uncle Tony, I have been watching the Big Richard build with Dr Art, Maybe you and he could dedicate a video to getting the 318 motor started and a few of the last items filling the checklist. It was a great idea for power tour and would enjoy seeing that old bird take flight again soon. Dr. Art poured his heart into that motor and the relevant items included along with your trans build, It deserves a close it out finally soon.
I just use Duraspark and heat sink TFI pieces on my Fords. The 390 could punch 510 hp and 488 ft lbs on the 93 pump with a daily solid 282S and headers.
Great numbers! Was the 390 a continuation of the 272,292,332,352 Y block engines?
Pertronix Ignitor III. Ten years with no problems.
Pertronix is great stuff!
The quality ten years ago was probably quite good.
This guy likes to complain. Steam cars don't have electronics there u go utg.
You’ve missed the point, the point being that whatever was on your vehicle when it was new, was in all likelihood completely adequate.
How many miles?
@39:55 Yea most will be bulletproof, except anything with duraspark 2 on it. Then you need to carry an extra ICM everywhere you go. So glad i got rid of that cj5
Another great video I like the point where you’re talking about the gm hei distributors learned a few things on that and I always hate seeing them on other engines they don’t belong to there so massive and ugly ruins the look of a good hot rod motor.
Lol.. perfect example of what I did with my 225. Dad dropped a points dist in it because he didn't understand the original chrysler electronic ignition wiring. When I got the truck, (ran very rough) the distributor wobbled bad enough the factory rotor would hit the cap and snap the tip. So I pulled the dist. Put an electronic system back in it. Still running it today. Runs fine, always hits.
I worked for Chevrolet when I got out of high-school gm hei modules were made in Singapore.
Ok, and?
Id rather pull a working Delco module out of a used distributor, and put that in my daily driver than go buy something new from AutoZone or O'Reilly's.
I've had more bad new electronics in the last 5 years than I had in the 20 years previous. At least they were still using decent materials to make it in the 80s
I had a 2.5 in an old Daytona circle track car I ran a modified Pinto Duraspark distributor and mopar orange Box. Worked great.
Great stuff Tony. I wholeheartedly agree, stick with the OEM design and only upgrade parts when other engine performance upgrades require it.
I mostly work on either really old stuff (old tractors with points and magnetos) or slightly newer stuff from the 80s and 90s.
IMHO the single best factory ignition system in terms of robustness and reliability was the Ford EDIS. They have a simple crank trigger wheel and vr sensor, no sensitive distributor pickups, no bushings to go bad, multiple coils to fire pairs of cylinders. And they're relatively cheap to repair unlike more modern coil on plug setups.
I also used an msd 5 on my 1971 ford pinto 2.0 (122 cid 4 cyl) the only change was the crane cam I put it.
It worked well…
My 440 D150 had points and ran great. I put a Petronix in without a ballast resister. The truck starts faster than anything I have ever driven.
As a busted-up, dead broke old man, it is extremely unlikely that I will ever drive again, nor spin any wrenches. IMMEDIATELY clicked on this.
Thanks, Tony.
P.S., My all-time preferred domestic ignition was a Mallory Bluepoint, dual point distributor fed by an Accel Supercoil.
I'm using a Duraspark II distributor to trigger a GM 4 pin HEI module and a 'E' coil. Runs great. 302 just a step or 2 above stock.
What E coil?
@@roberthollinshead2325 the Ford coil for the tfi ignition. Doesn't require a ballast resistor or resistive wire.
And the HEI module is mounted on a large aluminum bracket to dissipate heat
@@garymatthys3605 I've heard some of the Ford e-coils were really good. What vehicles are you harvesting these out of?
@@roberthollinshead2325 the one I used was out of a 86 LTD/V6. I wasn't aware some were better than others?
Would be good if you could do some more regarding performance ignition especially magnetos, the scintilla vertex/ronco magnetos seem to me that the quality of those units (the old ones) is second to none
I totally agree with you, I work on mainly british cars from the 50s,60s, and 70s, and I have replaced loads of dodgy electronic ignition units back to points. Mainly due to the electronic units getting too hot, resulting in the hardening of the heat sink paste and magnet brake down, the heat eventually fries the units internal components.
VERY Good advice for factory igntion systems.
I have a stock 68 GTO 400 With the original points distributor and it runs like new...
Around
68 k miles
BTW I recently asked about upgrading to the GM HEI at my GTO club Meeting the they said Keep your stock points distributor!!!
This is another great video of tips and tricks, that were seldom shared when high end tech was not invented? I still learn from Uncle Tony's videos as I relate him to my father's knowledge when I was growing up. He also liked points over newer style electronic ignition systems .
I LOVE Uncle Tony...... I can listen to you forever!!!!!!❤🧡💛💚💙💜🤎🖤🤍
I ran a Mallory unilite distributor for many years in the late 80’s. Never had an issue. I’ve used the pertronix drop in unit and it worked fine for me. It’s a crap-shoot with pertronix. You might get a good one, might get a bad one.
Im personally a fan of the GM HEI style distributor. But points are good too if you set em every week.
I must have been the outlier because I seldom adjusted my GM uni points on my street car back then.
@jamessharp9790 1 time a year for my ford with points. And that was only because I changed them 1 time a year. I would check timing a few time a year' just before summer and winter. If timing spot on then so are points (1 degree dwell change is 2 degree timing change). I ran more timing in winter.
Connect Dwell meter. If angle stays the same, you're good.
iam out
Thank you for ALL of your awsome detailed videos. You have a way of explaining material like no other. I always enjoy watching all of your content! Keep it going brotha.😊
i own an air cooled VW, i run a OEM Bosch Eletronic iginition on it, never had any problems since i bougth the car (about a year ago) tho i do think now and then that if that ignition module fails am done for (as i cant find a new one to have as spare) so yea, i do see me going back to points in the future if i cant keep this iginition going
Great video!A lot of good information,especially since I just bought a complete HEI system with separate coil for my ‘56 Pontiac.I suspected a worn points distributor because my dwell would intermittently fluctuate.My new distributor came with a GM type 4 pin module mounted on the side.I was thinking of swapping it with an NOS GM module but I didn’t.Now,I think I’ll pick one up.I did this years ago with an Accel HEI distributor.The Accel module died after a year or so.At the time I was still able to go to the dealer and pick one up.Never had a failure after that.
I ran a small block chevy to 8k on a pertronics stage 3 in a stick shift camaro 4 passes 😅 then went back to my grumpy jenkins book, did his magic to the points distributor, deavcon in the body no vacume advanced Mallory x points and solid core wires. More work to the mechanical advance ,springs making the slot larger worked for years
Mallory uniltes are fantastic! I put a dual pointy l in a 318 back in 1981. I ran dual point to 86 then converted it to a unilite and ran that old distributor until 2003 and then put a new unilite distributor in it. Back in 2017 I shorted the unilite eye wire hit header:( I took the old unilite cell out of the old distributor and put it in no issues!!! Amazing stuff!!!
Met you in Tennessee on Powertour. I appreciate you saying hello.
I've been installing them (pertronix) for 20+ years in maybe 30-40 cars. Never had a failure or complaint. I do so because my customers have no idea what points are or where they are. In that case, where I know it won't get maintained, I really do not have a choice.
back in the day we ran lots of HEIs , a few MSDs , one or two mallorys dual points the ford duraspark kits , and the mopar --either points or electronic . the HEI can really romp if its set up to the GM race manual spcs --i seen up twist up so high that the counterweights ate through the posts-- anything electronic these days is just a crap shoot. best i can recall about the MSDs is they put out but were bad to blow up coils . for the street it was strictly OEM stuff--even the points ran good --back when you could get good points
I have seen a VERY few people run a Pertronix ignition system totally problem free for thousands of miles. These were old units, being run on vehicles that were often daily driven, and they all had something in common. They all had beautiful wiring front to back. One person at a car show was telling me he hand wired his car front to back with all new, more modern connectors when and where possible, and brand new original style plugs where needed. Every other vehicle I have seen with a Pertronix ignition tended to be trailer queens and parade cars that did not get driven much, if at all, and I have seen them fail. There was a guy with a 440 Dodge Challenger (swapped from a 318) that broke down just as he pulled into a show I went to. Someone helped him swap to a points ignition he bought at the swap meet, and he was back up and running before the end of the show. Most people I have ever seen with daily driven, or at least often driven, classic cars tend to stick with points, or OEM electronic ignition.
Professor Tony, thank you for another informative lecture and passing your wisdom on to future generations.
This was incredibly helpful. Also stock ignition systems well tuned are a place to start.
Experiment from there and take dependability into account when working on a daily driver.
I have a 78 Cherokee that came with a badass ignition and I returned it to stock, and it ran better.
Tony thank you so much for the post a lot of my suspicion was confirmed by your post thanks for your commitment to accuracy and your honesty.
Once again, great points from Tony, no pun intended. However, I do have a slightly different view on the MSD ignition, which worked well at cleaning up my overcarbureted '71 302-powered Ranchero. There is a lot of truth to Tony's view that it will cover up problems; my '71 was overcarbureted. The basic theory behind an MSD is that multiple sparks in an ignition cycle will help ignite fuel/air mixture that failed to burn properly. Given how slight imperfections will always be there, it can be a great help, but as Tony pointed out, if it helps noticeably, do try to find out what is going on. I can also see where it would clean up emissions, but many of us on here aren't very concerned with that.
Probably the best strategy with MSD is to tune as best as possible with it disabled, then reenable it for reliability. I enjoyed the way it smoothed out the idle on that '71.
Yep, points have a better chance of surviving solar flares and EMPs than anything electronically controlled; nothing to fry. They give you a signal before going kaput, whereas electronic ignitions generally die an instant and often unexpected death.
I have a '78 318 Dodge pickup plow truck with a Davison unified HEI conversion. I had to dent the firewall which I was unhappy about. I did not open the plug gaps and it absolutely worked perfect
Thanks for talking about the extra condenser on the negative side of the coil. I was wondering about the one on my stock 392 hemi.
Tony, I agree with everything you said on ignition systems except one thing. When I was 15 I used to hang around with this kid that was 16 and had a 66 Impala with a 350/350 in it. He asked me to take a look at it because It didn't run very well. It would bog down at 2500 rpm or so, but only under load and driving down the road. After looking it over and trying to figure out what was going on with it I finally asked if it was the original motor in the car. Him and his Dad had put a 350 in it out of a 84 impala and when they were pulling the motor out of the donor car they broke the distributor cap. His Dad put in the points and condensor system from the original 350. I put the hei distributor in it and it ran perfect. The only thing I could figure out was the 84 motor had alot less compression compared to the original 66 engine. Sometimes you shouldn't go backwards with the ignition system. I've never heard of it before or since but it cured his problem with the engine. Ran good after that.
I have a 70 AAR "Cuda. Installed Mopar electronic ignition in the '70s. The epoxy potting compound has been creeping out of it down the firewall very slowly ever since. I have a vintage spare unit in the drawer, and it's been doing the same thing. So much for NOS!
Really clear explanation particularly the point about ignition upgrades improving performance meaning something is wrong in the overall combination.
Um we might be in different worlds Tony. I just do not see the old basic street rods anymore. Me building one but don't see any. Me doing a simple hot rodded 383 and an 833 4spd with a dana in a '60 Fury. Ignition will be the basic mopar performance distributor and a carter AVS.
Ahh I've never had a problem with a HEI conversion. The one I'm running now cost $13 from rock auto. Also people are still replacing them in factory gm vehicles and not having problems. Also for $13 you can carry 5 of them in the glove box.
I wire the gm hei in place of ford duraspark and mopar boxes ...cheap and easy to wire to stock electronic oem distributors
1950 IH with sbf 302 and HEI swap. 3 failed new modules later, I raided an old OEM module and never had a problem.
SBC 327 with old Crane ignition conversion has an adjustable Rev limiter works flawlessly 25 years
I worked as a diehard Chevy guy at a parts store in the mid 2000’s. Used to stock a new Accel HEI distributor right on the shelf, made in Canada. I could always count on that part to give my customers a reliable conversion or replacement for HEI. They shipped that production to China, and boy did that go to hell in a hurry.
I don’t know if they still make them, but Standard motor Products used to make point conversions like Petronix that were very reliable. If they are still available it might be worth a test.
STANDARD BRAND, does still make.. ignition products..
But they very.. built in etc, to price point,, T series is the Economy option.. same part number, just add T in front etc.. I've seen, USA, Mexico, Taiwan, Japan!.. in both T and Non ...
Blue Streak is gone now..
I trust Accel Plug wires, and would beyond that.. MSD street Series brand is.. absolute crap..
I've also sold Parts for years.. O'Reilly's and even AutoZone, Classic Industries, to wholesale Parts Distributor..
My daily driver is a 68 Dart Grandma special Slant6 to V8 swap, Accel Coil/Wires,
I converted a Spector Brand Points distributor, after....
9 failures .. 9! Warranty exchanges...
I only got to do so because I was management..
Swapped to Petronix...
Running now for 7 years.. plus.. everyday and everywhere...
I got lucky...
Cheers from Orange County California 🇺🇸
@∅
Accel hei coils were bulletproof until they weren't. I would rather a Amazon one now
Did many of those ignition conversions not from points but from mid 70s Chrysler lean burn systems that were garbage .Never had one fail and come back. Remember they had 2 different colored ignition modules you would bolt on the firewall backdating to standard ignition with a vacuum advance .They ran so much better and customers were really happy.
I have a 1981 Saab 900 with twin carbs and a points ignition system with a 4 speed manual transmission, it sounds great and drives lovely!
I have a friend who put one of those Pertronics ignitions in a old car he was putting back on the road. Drove it only a couple of miles before it crapped out. I told him to replace everything with the old points and condenser setup. It has worked flawlessly for over a year now. Simple is often better.
Yep.. Mallory Unilite on my El Camino since about 1980.... ( 72 el camino 350 ).... has a Mallory Promaster # 29440 coil.
On my second engine since 2001 but same Unilite... change cap/rotor every 10,000 miles.
Years ago, I had a 1986 Mustang GT hatchback 5.0 auto, 3.27 gears. Only mods were a shift kit, under bumper ram air, 13-degree timing, an MSD coil and 6A box with the plug in wire set up. At the track, it would go consistent 14.90 to 15.0 at 87 to 89 mph with 2.10 60-foot times. One time, I decided to unplug the MSD to see how much slower the car would go. Next pass, 2.07 60-foot time, 14.89 at 89.77 mph. That being said, hot ignitions are good for high power engines. More stock engines, not so much.
Great video sir. I still own 2 vehicles with points distributors. I still think it's worth it. I'm 62 and I still remember how it's done. I can still rebuild a Motorcraft 2 bbl. With my eyes closed hahaha.
Use Standard Motor Ignition Breaker Points DR-2371XP for GM vehicles. They are good.
Exactly right on finding stock factory electronic distbutors for regular street use. Built the 327 in my '67 Impala in 1991 - went to the junkyard and pulld an HEI out of another small block Chevy and put it in......30 years later it's still running that same distributor! You'll never get that from the new stuff thats being sold today.
I run the Summit Racing billet Mopar electric conversion kit SUM-851003-1 on the 318 I built and installed in my 87 Dakota. I’m running the FiTech EFI CompCams CL20-222-3 cam and KB flat top pistons. It’s a little over 300hp. I have over 8000 miles on it so far and no problems.
25 years ago the Wells brand ignition box for all my Jeeps would fry in a few months, so I bought all the OEM I could from junkyards. I ran out, So I converted to Ford TFI using factory 302 parts. 340 thousand miles later Tony tells it true. OEM only.
I still run the stock single points ignition in my 1969 Charger R/T SE survivor. 440 Magnum/Auto Unrestored/unrebuilt and still in V/Fine original condition..... the single points fire first time every time with no issues.
Just say'in.... if it ain't broke why fix it ?
I personally been using the Progression Ignition GM Hei distributor. It's very reliable and adjustable in any application you may need. In my research, I found exactly what Uncle Tony's states about the pertronix.
Back in the 1980's, when I had a 72 Gran Torino Sport and was building a high performance 400 for it, I wanted something easier to maintain for ignition too. I ended up converting a stock Ford single point distributor to electronic ignition using an Allison XR700 optically triggered electronic ignition kit. It worked great.