Old can mean "outdated" as in "there's ways to do what you're trying to do, but better." But they are not synonymous. When people hear a reviewer describe something outdated as "old," they start to assume that all things old are also outdated. Brevity can be dangerous when it breeds undeserved hate.
Also seems like a stretch to assume such a distinction is not made if not stated outright. Or infered by the audience. Sure, some people may not pay much attention, they'll hear "old bad" and run with it. But if you're deeper than your shins, that manner of narrative just doesn't stick, I don't think. With how many look back fondly upon various old titles and spread said love in various formats, from long video essays to beginner guides and retrospectives, I'd almost say there's just as much of an issue of glorifying the past with some thick pink shades on as there is the idea of linear progress in gamedesign. Ultimately, the conclusion of the video says it all. I personally don't want to return to Gold Box days but maybe someone could pick out some gold amongst all the samey dungeons and impossible difficulty spikes to turn it into something innovative.
@@LunamrathP They become bad because something better comes after Moving around using a horse is not "bad", but let's be honest, now that we have cars and planes and trains... why would you use a horse ? Nowadays, compared to others options, it's strickly worse. "good" and "bad" don't mean anything by themsleves, it only make sense in a context Is Golden Eye good ? According to pretty much every single person that played it back then, it was But is it still good nowadays ? With those controls, this design, this controler ? The least we can say is that it's very outdated and that it can easily be considered bad when compared to recent games
@@LunamrathP Let's be honest, a review of Golden Eye nowadays would require lots of efforts to put aside what is now considered to be bad, and the only reason for doing that would be nostalgia or the will to "judge the game in a vacuum", which is imo the fallacious idea, it's either bad and it's not, even if those definitions evolve with time All black and white movies aren't bad, but most of them would probably be better without that limitation and it's the reason why most of us don't watch them whatsoever It is poorly designed tho Years and years of modern FPS have shown us how terrible the idea of having a "cursor" to aim is That doesn't mean the game wasn't good, that doesn't mean one can't enjoy it nowadays, but is sure makes it worse than it was back then To summarize my idea: it's easy to think something is good when you don't know better
I enjoy these so much! Such great writing, observations and voiceover from Frost! Great editing too! 3:14 - "Its a him, Mario. The cause of all our pain and suffering" 🤣
For me, Old game design tends to be way more appealing than modern design. Old game design seems to cut out alot of realism in the name of enjoyment and artistic intent. I also like the fact old game design also seems to have a certain vagueness about it when it comes to puzzles and figuring out how to get past a certain area (like the tunic example). Very good video 👍
Hated gta4 cuz of the realism. Him taking every stairs even with me hitting the sprint button made me return it as a teenager. Never played it again even tho I got the tolerance for it now.
@@Kris-wo4pj The pro strat for me was to jump up the stairs, skipping them entirely lol. At least with Niko, he'd sort of "float" up the staircase, not even registering the individual stairs.
@@qrowing up was doable it was down that killed it. Swung the camera around to see if he actually registered every step and he basically did maybe missed 2 or 3 and was only slightly misaligned. Which now is fine but back then when stairs were just ramps with a texture over them it was furstrating. Id hurl him off of the top of stairs or sides of them but then have to waste money healing niko.
If anything old games often had *more* realism, as they weren't bound by the restrictions demanded by today's systems. Give every object HP, let the player bust down walls through a dungeon if they want to. Put a dozen language skills in the game players can learn to communicate with the denizens. It's all text and bitmaps.
I just realized while reading this comment that even though added realism through mods in some game adds up to the enjoyability for me, it ain't the case in every game. Some games are more easier (thus more enjoyable) for me to play when I don't raise the level of realism on it.
I feel like the biggest thing old games have over more modern ones is their limitations resulting in developers being more inclined to try out new and more innovative or simply different stuff. You can still kinda see this happening today with a lot of indie developers. While triple A games have largely devolved into a battle of pushing the technical limits of what is possible a lot of indie developers still have to work with limitations to some degree on account of simply not having the funds of big studios, resulting in them often pushing to stand out in new or different ways, in addition to now also having the ability to look at old games design choices and implement or reinvent them in their games, like Frost briefly mentioned in the video.
It's so nice to see a game use 'lives' in a palatable way finally. People hate them because they're used to excuse overly punishing difficulty, when in reality they are just a resource like anything else that can create unique decision-making situations.
I actually didn’t finish Sonic Mania because of the lives system. I was really enjoying the game, and I’ll come back to it one day, but I kind of bounced off the momentum killing restarts and starting playing other games
@@J05TI see thats where you're just wrong. sonic mania for example has proven that not only does the old trilogy hold up, its not just nostalgia. that style is just fun to play. sonic 1 clunky af tho.
@@cybercobra2 I played every "classic" Sonic game. They all played the same. They all sucked. I don't understand why so many people claim Sonic 2, 3, and Sonic and Knuckles are better than Sonic 1, much less why there's so much love for them in the first place. The only difference in gameplay between Sonic 1 and the rest is the spin dash, which doesn't impact the game that much. There are 2 problems with those games. 1. You can't react to any enemy or obstacle that you run into, because Sonic is always at the center of the screen and moves too fast. Rolling up in a ball doesn't help much, because it won't help you with pits and spikes and you'll gradually slow down, making the game tedious. Yet, the game has constant slopes and loop de loops, motivating you to go fast. Not to mention that Sonic starts off walking very slowly, slowly picking up pace as he continues to move, until he teaches top speed. That motivates you keep going fast, too. 2. The game takes away control constantly, in the form of loop de loops and corkscrews, making you _feel_ like you're doing fancy tricks. But really, all you're doing is pressing right. They might as well be loading screens or cutscenes. The boss battles can be fun. The visuals are great. And the music is amazing. But that's it. I think people are too caught up with visuals and music, coupled with nostalgia, in order to enjoy the games.
@@J05TI Having spoken with a lot of Sonic fans over the years, and absolutely _hating_ the games myself, I'll tell you what they would say in response to those points. 1) The point of the game is gaining mastery over the levels! Sonic games were practically proto-speedrunner games where the goal is to memorize levels, where enemies and spikes are, so that you know when to make jumps. If you play badly you go slow, your reward for mastering the game is being able to go fast B) 2) Games can be more than just skill challenges, there's enjoyment to be had from an experience even when you don't have direct control. Are cutscenes bad because you're not playing the game? Of course not, if the characters are written well and the story is good no one complains. The loops make you feel awesome, and that's what the games are trying to do, make you feel awesome. To which I'd reply that anyone looking at any of the advertising or discussion around the Sonic games would see that it's all focused on the game being about speed and going fast, not about learning levels by rote. That this is a post-hoc justification for poor gameplay and level design by people who played and enjoyed these games as children to the point of mastery and being able to enjoy them on that level, not one born of actual intended game design nor one that was communicated to the audience. And secondly that the illusion of cool and speed is no substitute for good storytelling or characterization that a cutscene could provide.
My man you singing my heart out. Not just about what you're talking about, but something I been thinking about: Flowing. You don't have a succinct main thesis, and you don't need one. Maybe it's helpful, maybe it's not. You take different things away from the games you play, and you try not to judge because they're "old". Maybe someday this video is old, so we shouldn't judge it thusly. Everyone got something to teach you, every game got something to teach you. Try with it. Flow with it :)
As a person whose favorite game mechanics are often called, "clunky" or "outdated" I feel this in my soul. Tank controls and limited save amounts are not bad, they add feelings to games that when removed makes the feeling change!
Yeah, but very often they add feelings most people dislike, and that's why people consider them to be bad, not the opposite However that doesn't mean that every body should like the exact same things, and that games should only appeal to the broader audience
Tank controls are definitely unfairly maligned and impart excellent qualities to a game that I think many people miss out on.... if, and *only if,* you are controlling a *tank* or similar vehicle/creature. If you're controlling a human that isn't in a wheelchair? Nah all the hate's completely fair and deserved
Another excellent Cold Take. Loving this series. I will forever maintain that the Dressphere system in Final Fantasy X-2 is MASSIVELY slept on. On the go class switching with incentives for switching classes multiple times (including in customized patterns), and each class has a wildly different flavor.
Lots of Final Fantasy features were used once and forgotten that could be re-used really well. I like Tactics, FF9's system of learning new abilities from weapons. So stealing became actually important. You could miss an ability.
I really enjoy the pace of the video and the approach to telling information. I`m too tired of watching all that fast and attention-grabbing reels. That's the place I really relax and enjoy, thank you.
This series is great. The noir-poetry delivery is just the hook for the excellent games journalism. Dredge just moved up a few spots on my wish list and Revita just got pushed to the top. I love Binding of Isaac but the luck feels a bit too much for me oftentimes… something where I can make my own luck should fit much better. Thanks for the recommendations!
If someone disparages a game saying it feels like an action adventure from the 2000's I get excited. I love action adventure games from the 2000's and am disappointed they stoped making them.
When we look back at the early 2020s, I think the game design we'll revile most is "unnecessary time sinks". So many games pad the game with fluff meant to keep you playing, but with the endless multitude of games available, we just end up never finishing anything because it becomes too much of a grind. Weapon degradation mechanics, never ending game as service "seasonal" content, XP grinding fetch quests, "idle farming" mobile apps, empty open worlds--they all became ways the developers try to get you to sink more time into their game. Of course, the ultimate form of this are free to play mobile apps that reward whale spenders by allowing them to skip the line of grind and are themselves rewarded if you don't by ad revenue. A lot of the examples of badly implemented ideas are starting to fade, but you can see the roots of the "time sink" going all the way back to arcades eating your quarters but it wasn't until COVID gave us all lots of time in 2020 that it finally bloomed into its cancerous current form. It's a malicious fungus that has been allowed to grow and fruit much too long.
In defense of weapon degradation mechanics, these can genuinely add tension to survival horror games and force the player to come up with interesting strategies if done well. It can also encourage players to swap weapons. I agree with you on everything else though lol
Great video, as always. I really enjoy the amount of thought that goes into what he talks about. This is going to be an odd suggestion, but you all need to do something different with the thumbnails for Cold Take. I know about it and want to watch it, but the thumbnail is so generic that my eyes skate right over it. ZP and EP have that bright yellow background, but CT has the same blue as the rest of your series. Maybe a different color? Or a distinctive logo?
Evil West is one of my favorite games in recent times and every bit of its design oozes early 2010s. Its clunky and unrefined at times, but it feels like it was made with the passion and heart that I havent felt from a game since... well the early 2010s.
This actually reminds me of something that struck me recently. It came to my attention that there seems to be this pervasive attitude that, especially in games and movies, something has to be "revolutionary" to be high quality. Now while pushing boundaries and trying new things is great, it seems to have fostered a sentiment that "if it's been done before, it's bad because it's repetitive and thus not creative". For instance, in some of the reviews I've seen for the new Dungeons & Dragon and Super Mario Bros movie, there were lines that amounted to "it's revolutionary or emotionally gripping or a cinematic masterpiece, but it was fun and entertaining", and it struck me that the reviewers felt the need to tack on those qualifiers and justifications, as though a movie that's simply "fun and entertaining" isn't good enough and they had to justify why it was. Similar with games and "old designs". Just because a design isn't "new and revolutionary and will change the gaming landscape forever" doesn't mean it's bad design; heck, the notion that the next hot new thing will change gaming forever is a paradox with this logic because a design is often seen as one-and-done before it's considered old and "done before". How long ago a design was made, or trope codified, has little bearing on its quality if used properly.
That's a pretty good point. I know myself I find it too refreshing when a villain is just unabashedly evil, no real backstory, no semi-justified motivations with poor execution, just good ol' "I want it because it's there". What's old can be new again. I wonder if part of it is due to some folks being entrenched in any one media format or genre or series and getting burnt out. In games, take something like Assassin's Creed or Far Cry or any other played out series you think doesn't iterate enough. While it can be fine to critique it for that on other merits, would it really come off as a "bad game" if you hadn't already played 200+ hours of it already via the previous entries? Anyone would get bored after that much exposure. Meanwhile the game itself can be perfectly good on its own merits (or maybe it is actually bad), but you might not know as those that talk are those that have played a dozen entries in the series already and are speaking from an abundance of experience and exposure rather than from a new entrant's perspective.
The oldest mechanic that still hasn't changed and nobody bats an eye is shoot or hit it till its dead. Why can't Call of Duty gives an option to romance our way through war
Why can't we leave other games to do that? Although the strive do revaluate and question the default way we do things is valuable, there's a risk to then forcing nonsensical change into games that do the default well. Your idea would be best served for a Game that has that idea at its core from the start and not crowbarred into on that doesn't and never had.
@@HerbieChuckNorris Now that I think about it, didn’t Yahtzee just review a game earlier this year called Fashion Police Squad, where you shoot other people, but instead of killing them, you “fix” their sense of style? I think he said they thank you for it, too, lol. Don’t worry, I think Indies are finally catching up.
I'm right there with you on being terrified of water. I got stuck in ocarina of Time for over a year, not because the water temple was too difficult, but because I was scared of the water
What a lovely little Nietzsche reference! And my reaction to mentioning Bastion and Hades could be summed up as "when the sexiest voice in video game reviews talks about the sexiest voice in video game voice acting, we're going to have some messes in our pants."
Honestly one of my favorite games of this generation is a third person shooter Evil West that has a very “old” design, it says what you need to do and that doesn’t change up to the final boss
There is a cycle where certain design tropes get overexposed or suffer lots of poor implementation, resulting in developers running away from them. But in a few years those design tropes will feel nostalgic or outright new to modern gamers who are exhausted with current trends. Heck, there was a period in the late ‘90s to early ‘00s where 2D games were briefly being phased out of the mainstream because 3D was the new hotness, and it was kind of bold that Symphony of the Night remained a 2D platformer on PS1. But after the PS1/PS2 generation, the nostalgia wave for ‘90s style 2D games erupted
I too am a-scared off the water, but that's what made the "pyramid song" mission w/ Judy from cyberpunk 2077 stick out to me; it was the first time I felt truly safe in the water, and now I'll catch myself humming Bells of Laguna Bend every so often
You know what game had really fun swimming mechanics? Ty The Tasmanian Tiger. You dog paddle at the surface until you get the aquarangs, and then you *zoom* and can attack underwater.
One thing that I really wish was more prevalent is games that do interesting things with multifunction resources. Definitely looking into Revita because it sounds like a good example, and there was a fun game I played a while ago called Roguelight where you're exploring a dark dungeon and use a limited and erratically-restocked supply of fire arrows for basically everything.
A more famous example would be the Metro 2033 series where bullets, the good bullets anyway, doubled as currency, so it can become a decision of dealing with enemies easier now or save up for supplies later. Such designs are indeed pretty neat, and really help give a certain feel as your tools become more meaningful, almost part of the world.
The title alone deserve a like. It's such a sad thing to see old but gold designs being ignored due to "being done before". It just needs a bit of polish and maybe time to marinate the idea to make it fresh again!
I'm just going to say the original Spyro 2 and 3 had the best swimming controls in 3D for their time and still feel good today. Reignited is unfortunately disappointing af in that regard as it doesn't feel nearly as smooth.
I think one old designs that was abandoned was tank controls. The reason being that whatever these could do, other types of controls could do better, be it horror game and otherwise. It seems that these controls seem to work the best where tank controls are the main aspect of the game to overcome. Out of all the genres, the most recent example where it did work is Stephen's Sausage Roll which is a puzzle game and where tank controls play an integral role for solving puzzles.
There are exceptions, like QTE that are "do or die" - but I have no problem with those that provide different/additional outcomes when you pass like in mass effect 2. Or that are hilarious if you fail on purpose like Quantic dreams' (just watch a let's play for this one of course). I don't understand the example "lava as a design" though. Isn't lava more of a setting ? Or is the design "fall = instant death" ? Cause spikes do that often too. Or maybe its fun to have a cold take on lava
Wrll one of the more interesting take on why lava in game design was seen as bad is about its in universe incoherence,like i the many "factory" levels where there is an unexplained amont of molten metal with zero sécurity around it whatsoever regardless of what the factory produces
"Good, I say. I could use more of all of those. I wasn't done with them." That's such a powerful line, and I can't even explain why. Maybe it's just how it's said, or the context it's responding to.
The sunken ship 'water' levels of Tomb Raider 2 were brilliant. Controls aside it's one of the most interesting and atmospheric locations in the entire franchise. I doubt we'll see its like again as old-shipwreck-but-still-fillable-with-air stretches credibility when you have more a realistic tone & visuals.
Something I was thinking about recently as people were putting out 10-year retrospectives on BioShock Infinite and Last of Us was how those games both had a plot framed around an escort mission while completely eschewing actual escort gameplay, and they were both readily praised for it. "Escort missions" are generally seen as anathema nowadays, but I always thought the concept held loads of potential for ludonarrative harmony. Making you help someone in gameplay as well as in cutscenes. Ico and Brothers: A Tale of Two Sons are some games built heavily around escort mechanics that tell a more impactful story for it.
I need to check out Revita, looks very interesting. I played Dredge, and while the concept is promising, the execution left much to be desired in my opinion.
i don't even think that outdated is bad, a lot of people say that fixed camera is an outdated mechanic, but i quite like it, there are creative ways to use this style of camera, in my eyes it's as viable as fps or tps if used well.
Love that he brought up Majora's Mask when it came to swimming It's baffling they've never returned to that zora movement I'd love an open world zora game
That was my first thought too; although, upon reflection, I think that was a deliberate joke of including one of the game titles that MOST suggests lava in his list of games where lava would be unexpected XD
It's a bit of a catch-22. You do a tried-and-tested design trope, it's been done already, probably to death. Yet, when you go out of your way to do something usual, 9/10 times you reinvent the wheel because there's nothing new under the sun. What's a developer to do? You do a tried-and-tested design but do an *unusually good implementation*. That's when old design can be good design.
Feels like this sentence "This game feels old" only spoken for the people have no fond memories or there is no remarkable game they've played before all the way back, or even unable to see any rough dimaond
I do yearn for certain eras of gaming but with a fresh coat of paint and quality of life improvements. Metroidvania's do a stellar job of fulfilling my GBA days. But I do wish we would go back to the 6th console generation for Kart Racers rather than now where everything feels like a Mario Kart 7 clone. Though on the note of Metroidvania's it feels like there is an entirely new school of them that don't fall into a historic category. Anything inspired by Dark Souls/Hollow Knight is severely different from Metroidvania's of old or their priorities.
I think "of its time" is a much better phrase than simply "old" games such as the original ff7 have aged terribly, clunky menus that especially in combat can be a pain to navigate anything that isnt basic attacks, and a lot of the environments ots really hard to tell what's background detail and where I'm supposed to be able to go, and the script os cobbled together by one trnaslator in 2 weeks and reads more stiff than google translate, but I really like the game despite only playing it for the first time last year. Some of its timely quirks are oddly charming, and even if modern turn based rpgs have much more fun combat and visually clear dungeons such as octopath or modern dragon quest, there's still a tangible difference, the games stand out as unique, even if I wish we got a more faithful ff7 remake that wasn't a gacha game so some of the games biggest problems such as how obtuse vincent is to find, the prior mentioned menu and area clarity issues and needing to check a guide constantly because your only clue on where to go was one vague line in a non repeatable cutscene. (I like this game I swear)
pikmin. seriously. need calm? its got calm. need peace? its got peace. and it'll teach you things, things parents were SUPPOSED to be teaching, like focus on the task at hand so you can relax later, stop and smell the roses, see how much time you have and plan accordingly, whether its 13 minutes in pikmin 1 or how long it is till the pizza rolls are done in pikmin 2, or the mix in pikmin 3. i remember i got really sentimental on pikmin, enough that even arlo liked it. the comments said pikmin was about slavery if thats all you got from this series, im so sorry your brain outright failed you. scold it, ground it for a while, and set it on the right path
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Awesome intro
It was foolish of me not to give this series a chance for such a long time.
It rocks.
It rocks on the rocks.
It's got Heart, Soul, Class, and Sonic the Hedgehog.
this and design delve are really good
Very much agreed
"...and Sonic" really got me the second time around 😂
@@LunamrathP hehe running
for me it was the third time around
Old can mean "outdated" as in "there's ways to do what you're trying to do, but better." But they are not synonymous. When people hear a reviewer describe something outdated as "old," they start to assume that all things old are also outdated. Brevity can be dangerous when it breeds undeserved hate.
Also seems like a stretch to assume such a distinction is not made if not stated outright. Or infered by the audience. Sure, some people may not pay much attention, they'll hear "old bad" and run with it. But if you're deeper than your shins, that manner of narrative just doesn't stick, I don't think.
With how many look back fondly upon various old titles and spread said love in various formats, from long video essays to beginner guides and retrospectives, I'd almost say there's just as much of an issue of glorifying the past with some thick pink shades on as there is the idea of linear progress in gamedesign.
Ultimately, the conclusion of the video says it all. I personally don't want to return to Gold Box days but maybe someone could pick out some gold amongst all the samey dungeons and impossible difficulty spikes to turn it into something innovative.
This is why I'm not fond of remakes being blanketly referred to as better just because they add some modern trends and improve the technical fidelity.
@@LunamrathP They become bad because something better comes after
Moving around using a horse is not "bad", but let's be honest, now that we have cars and planes and trains... why would you use a horse ?
Nowadays, compared to others options, it's strickly worse. "good" and "bad" don't mean anything by themsleves, it only make sense in a context
Is Golden Eye good ? According to pretty much every single person that played it back then, it was
But is it still good nowadays ? With those controls, this design, this controler ? The least we can say is that it's very outdated and that it can easily be considered bad when compared to recent games
@@LunamrathP Let's be honest, a review of Golden Eye nowadays would require lots of efforts to put aside what is now considered to be bad, and the only reason for doing that would be nostalgia or the will to "judge the game in a vacuum", which is imo the fallacious idea, it's either bad and it's not, even if those definitions evolve with time
All black and white movies aren't bad, but most of them would probably be better without that limitation and it's the reason why most of us don't watch them whatsoever
It is poorly designed tho
Years and years of modern FPS have shown us how terrible the idea of having a "cursor" to aim is
That doesn't mean the game wasn't good, that doesn't mean one can't enjoy it nowadays, but is sure makes it worse than it was back then
To summarize my idea: it's easy to think something is good when you don't know better
I enjoy these so much! Such great writing, observations and voiceover from Frost! Great editing too!
3:14 - "Its a him, Mario. The cause of all our pain and suffering" 🤣
Ha. I heard that as: "It's a hymn. Mario: the cause of all our pain and suffering..."
This was like listening to poetry read to me by a 1930's Brooklyn-based detective and I loved it.
"The floor is eldritch!" is not a sentence I expected, or that it'd make me laugh as much as it did, but here we are.
That was my favorite line from the video.
I'm going to start using it.
For me, Old game design tends to be way more appealing than modern design. Old game design seems to cut out alot of realism in the name of enjoyment and artistic intent. I also like the fact old game design also seems to have a certain vagueness about it when it comes to puzzles and figuring out how to get past a certain area (like the tunic example). Very good video 👍
Hated gta4 cuz of the realism. Him taking every stairs even with me hitting the sprint button made me return it as a teenager. Never played it again even tho I got the tolerance for it now.
@@Kris-wo4pj The pro strat for me was to jump up the stairs, skipping them entirely lol. At least with Niko, he'd sort of "float" up the staircase, not even registering the individual stairs.
@@qrowing up was doable it was down that killed it. Swung the camera around to see if he actually registered every step and he basically did maybe missed 2 or 3 and was only slightly misaligned. Which now is fine but back then when stairs were just ramps with a texture over them it was furstrating. Id hurl him off of the top of stairs or sides of them but then have to waste money healing niko.
If anything old games often had *more* realism, as they weren't bound by the restrictions demanded by today's systems. Give every object HP, let the player bust down walls through a dungeon if they want to. Put a dozen language skills in the game players can learn to communicate with the denizens. It's all text and bitmaps.
I just realized while reading this comment that even though added realism through mods in some game adds up to the enjoyability for me, it ain't the case in every game. Some games are more easier (thus more enjoyable) for me to play when I don't raise the level of realism on it.
I feel like the biggest thing old games have over more modern ones is their limitations resulting in developers being more inclined to try out new and more innovative or simply different stuff. You can still kinda see this happening today with a lot of indie developers. While triple A games have largely devolved into a battle of pushing the technical limits of what is possible a lot of indie developers still have to work with limitations to some degree on account of simply not having the funds of big studios, resulting in them often pushing to stand out in new or different ways, in addition to now also having the ability to look at old games design choices and implement or reinvent them in their games, like Frost briefly mentioned in the video.
It's so nice to see a game use 'lives' in a palatable way finally. People hate them because they're used to excuse overly punishing difficulty, when in reality they are just a resource like anything else that can create unique decision-making situations.
I actually didn’t finish Sonic Mania because of the lives system. I was really enjoying the game, and I’ll come back to it one day, but I kind of bounced off the momentum killing restarts and starting playing other games
Been waiting for an Escapist feature that could rival ZP for years, and this stuff is gold!
Poor Sonic.
He knows what he did
Why? Sonic has always been terrible. Yes, that does include the originals. Yes, that does include Sonic 2 and Sonic and Knuckles.
@@J05TI see thats where you're just wrong. sonic mania for example has proven that not only does the old trilogy hold up, its not just nostalgia. that style is just fun to play.
sonic 1 clunky af tho.
@@cybercobra2 I played every "classic" Sonic game. They all played the same. They all sucked. I don't understand why so many people claim Sonic 2, 3, and Sonic and Knuckles are better than Sonic 1, much less why there's so much love for them in the first place. The only difference in gameplay between Sonic 1 and the rest is the spin dash, which doesn't impact the game that much. There are 2 problems with those games. 1. You can't react to any enemy or obstacle that you run into, because Sonic is always at the center of the screen and moves too fast. Rolling up in a ball doesn't help much, because it won't help you with pits and spikes and you'll gradually slow down, making the game tedious. Yet, the game has constant slopes and loop de loops, motivating you to go fast. Not to mention that Sonic starts off walking very slowly, slowly picking up pace as he continues to move, until he teaches top speed. That motivates you keep going fast, too. 2. The game takes away control constantly, in the form of loop de loops and corkscrews, making you _feel_ like you're doing fancy tricks. But really, all you're doing is pressing right. They might as well be loading screens or cutscenes.
The boss battles can be fun. The visuals are great. And the music is amazing. But that's it. I think people are too caught up with visuals and music, coupled with nostalgia, in order to enjoy the games.
@@J05TI Having spoken with a lot of Sonic fans over the years, and absolutely _hating_ the games myself, I'll tell you what they would say in response to those points.
1) The point of the game is gaining mastery over the levels! Sonic games were practically proto-speedrunner games where the goal is to memorize levels, where enemies and spikes are, so that you know when to make jumps. If you play badly you go slow, your reward for mastering the game is being able to go fast B)
2) Games can be more than just skill challenges, there's enjoyment to be had from an experience even when you don't have direct control. Are cutscenes bad because you're not playing the game? Of course not, if the characters are written well and the story is good no one complains. The loops make you feel awesome, and that's what the games are trying to do, make you feel awesome.
To which I'd reply that anyone looking at any of the advertising or discussion around the Sonic games would see that it's all focused on the game being about speed and going fast, not about learning levels by rote. That this is a post-hoc justification for poor gameplay and level design by people who played and enjoyed these games as children to the point of mastery and being able to enjoy them on that level, not one born of actual intended game design nor one that was communicated to the audience. And secondly that the illusion of cool and speed is no substitute for good storytelling or characterization that a cutscene could provide.
I love that you mentioned a game with the title "secret of the volcano" in a list of games you didn't expect to have lava in
Such a fantastic episode!
My man you singing my heart out. Not just about what you're talking about, but something I been thinking about: Flowing. You don't have a succinct main thesis, and you don't need one. Maybe it's helpful, maybe it's not. You take different things away from the games you play, and you try not to judge because they're "old". Maybe someday this video is old, so we shouldn't judge it thusly. Everyone got something to teach you, every game got something to teach you. Try with it. Flow with it :)
If I learnt something from this video, is that Sonic the Hedgehog is a constant in the gaming landscape, beyond time and space.
By this point I don’t think anyone or anything is capable of killing that franchise.
As a person whose favorite game mechanics are often called, "clunky" or "outdated" I feel this in my soul. Tank controls and limited save amounts are not bad, they add feelings to games that when removed makes the feeling change!
Yeah, but very often they add feelings most people dislike, and that's why people consider them to be bad, not the opposite
However that doesn't mean that every body should like the exact same things, and that games should only appeal to the broader audience
Tank controls are definitely unfairly maligned and impart excellent qualities to a game that I think many people miss out on.... if, and *only if,* you are controlling a *tank* or similar vehicle/creature.
If you're controlling a human that isn't in a wheelchair? Nah all the hate's completely fair and deserved
Another excellent Cold Take. Loving this series.
I will forever maintain that the Dressphere system in Final Fantasy X-2 is MASSIVELY slept on. On the go class switching with incentives for switching classes multiple times (including in customized patterns), and each class has a wildly different flavor.
Lots of Final Fantasy features were used once and forgotten that could be re-used really well. I like Tactics, FF9's system of learning new abilities from weapons. So stealing became actually important. You could miss an ability.
Even after all this time I still expect something like "now go out there, and play the games you are meant to play".
I really enjoy the pace of the video and the approach to telling information. I`m too tired of watching all that fast and attention-grabbing reels. That's the place I really relax and enjoy, thank you.
This series is great. The noir-poetry delivery is just the hook for the excellent games journalism.
Dredge just moved up a few spots on my wish list and Revita just got pushed to the top. I love Binding of Isaac but the luck feels a bit too much for me oftentimes… something where I can make my own luck should fit much better.
Thanks for the recommendations!
If someone disparages a game saying it feels like an action adventure from the 2000's I get excited. I love action adventure games from the 2000's and am disappointed they stoped making them.
I’ve heard a few people praise Hi Fi Rush for feeling like something that would have come out on Xbox360
When we look back at the early 2020s, I think the game design we'll revile most is "unnecessary time sinks". So many games pad the game with fluff meant to keep you playing, but with the endless multitude of games available, we just end up never finishing anything because it becomes too much of a grind. Weapon degradation mechanics, never ending game as service "seasonal" content, XP grinding fetch quests, "idle farming" mobile apps, empty open worlds--they all became ways the developers try to get you to sink more time into their game. Of course, the ultimate form of this are free to play mobile apps that reward whale spenders by allowing them to skip the line of grind and are themselves rewarded if you don't by ad revenue. A lot of the examples of badly implemented ideas are starting to fade, but you can see the roots of the "time sink" going all the way back to arcades eating your quarters but it wasn't until COVID gave us all lots of time in 2020 that it finally bloomed into its cancerous current form. It's a malicious fungus that has been allowed to grow and fruit much too long.
In defense of weapon degradation mechanics, these can genuinely add tension to survival horror games and force the player to come up with interesting strategies if done well. It can also encourage players to swap weapons.
I agree with you on everything else though lol
Great video, as always. I really enjoy the amount of thought that goes into what he talks about.
This is going to be an odd suggestion, but you all need to do something different with the thumbnails for Cold Take. I know about it and want to watch it, but the thumbnail is so generic that my eyes skate right over it. ZP and EP have that bright yellow background, but CT has the same blue as the rest of your series. Maybe a different color? Or a distinctive logo?
Cold take deserves the yellow
Evil West is one of my favorite games in recent times and every bit of its design oozes early 2010s. Its clunky and unrefined at times, but it feels like it was made with the passion and heart that I havent felt from a game since... well the early 2010s.
2:50 and then there's Subnautica and especially Below Zero, which have obnoxiously designed above-ground areas.
This actually reminds me of something that struck me recently. It came to my attention that there seems to be this pervasive attitude that, especially in games and movies, something has to be "revolutionary" to be high quality. Now while pushing boundaries and trying new things is great, it seems to have fostered a sentiment that "if it's been done before, it's bad because it's repetitive and thus not creative". For instance, in some of the reviews I've seen for the new Dungeons & Dragon and Super Mario Bros movie, there were lines that amounted to "it's revolutionary or emotionally gripping or a cinematic masterpiece, but it was fun and entertaining", and it struck me that the reviewers felt the need to tack on those qualifiers and justifications, as though a movie that's simply "fun and entertaining" isn't good enough and they had to justify why it was. Similar with games and "old designs". Just because a design isn't "new and revolutionary and will change the gaming landscape forever" doesn't mean it's bad design; heck, the notion that the next hot new thing will change gaming forever is a paradox with this logic because a design is often seen as one-and-done before it's considered old and "done before". How long ago a design was made, or trope codified, has little bearing on its quality if used properly.
That's a pretty good point. I know myself I find it too refreshing when a villain is just unabashedly evil, no real backstory, no semi-justified motivations with poor execution, just good ol' "I want it because it's there". What's old can be new again.
I wonder if part of it is due to some folks being entrenched in any one media format or genre or series and getting burnt out. In games, take something like Assassin's Creed or Far Cry or any other played out series you think doesn't iterate enough. While it can be fine to critique it for that on other merits, would it really come off as a "bad game" if you hadn't already played 200+ hours of it already via the previous entries? Anyone would get bored after that much exposure. Meanwhile the game itself can be perfectly good on its own merits (or maybe it is actually bad), but you might not know as those that talk are those that have played a dozen entries in the series already and are speaking from an abundance of experience and exposure rather than from a new entrant's perspective.
The oldest mechanic that still hasn't changed and nobody bats an eye is shoot or hit it till its dead. Why can't Call of Duty gives an option to romance our way through war
Because they’re cowards, lol.
Why can't we leave other games to do that? Although the strive do revaluate and question the default way we do things is valuable, there's a risk to then forcing nonsensical change into games that do the default well. Your idea would be best served for a Game that has that idea at its core from the start and not crowbarred into on that doesn't and never had.
@@HerbieChuckNorris Why do you think my comment was serious in the first place ? :D
@@HerbieChuckNorris Now that I think about it, didn’t Yahtzee just review a game earlier this year called Fashion Police Squad, where you shoot other people, but instead of killing them, you “fix” their sense of style? I think he said they thank you for it, too, lol.
Don’t worry, I think Indies are finally catching up.
I'm right there with you on being terrified of water. I got stuck in ocarina of Time for over a year, not because the water temple was too difficult, but because I was scared of the water
Thanks
Great series, and that Subnautica joke at the end really got me.
I cannot stress this enought how much this resonates with me. Very well made episode
What a lovely little Nietzsche reference!
And my reaction to mentioning Bastion and Hades could be summed up as "when the sexiest voice in video game reviews talks about the sexiest voice in video game voice acting, we're going to have some messes in our pants."
Honestly one of my favorite games of this generation is a third person shooter Evil West that has a very “old” design, it says what you need to do and that doesn’t change up to the final boss
I love these. I feel like this channel has been breathed new life
There is a cycle where certain design tropes get overexposed or suffer lots of poor implementation, resulting in developers running away from them. But in a few years those design tropes will feel nostalgic or outright new to modern gamers who are exhausted with current trends. Heck, there was a period in the late ‘90s to early ‘00s where 2D games were briefly being phased out of the mainstream because 3D was the new hotness, and it was kind of bold that Symphony of the Night remained a 2D platformer on PS1. But after the PS1/PS2 generation, the nostalgia wave for ‘90s style 2D games erupted
Fantastic! Love this series!
"Kao the Kangaroo: Mystery of the volcano" for sure wasn't a game I expected to have lava in it
we need to learn not to jump to conclusions period
I never ealised that water and lava levels just disappeared until this vid. They were tropey sure, but hella fun. Like ice levels.
I too am a-scared off the water, but that's what made the "pyramid song" mission w/ Judy from cyberpunk 2077 stick out to me; it was the first time I felt truly safe in the water, and now I'll catch myself humming Bells of Laguna Bend every so often
You know what game had really fun swimming mechanics? Ty The Tasmanian Tiger. You dog paddle at the surface until you get the aquarangs, and then you *zoom* and can attack underwater.
I was thinking I was the only one outside of the developers that knew of Kao the Kangaroo's existence.
I really have been looking forward to these each week.
Beautiful one, Frost. I loved this episode
One thing that I really wish was more prevalent is games that do interesting things with multifunction resources. Definitely looking into Revita because it sounds like a good example, and there was a fun game I played a while ago called Roguelight where you're exploring a dark dungeon and use a limited and erratically-restocked supply of fire arrows for basically everything.
A more famous example would be the Metro 2033 series where bullets, the good bullets anyway, doubled as currency, so it can become a decision of dealing with enemies easier now or save up for supplies later. Such designs are indeed pretty neat, and really help give a certain feel as your tools become more meaningful, almost part of the world.
“The floor is Erdrich” is my new favorite game 👹
The title alone deserve a like. It's such a sad thing to see old but gold designs being ignored due to "being done before". It just needs a bit of polish and maybe time to marinate the idea to make it fresh again!
Yeah, Revita is a fantastic example of using familiar mechanics and ideas in new an exciting ways.
He reminded me of Bastion and my reality immediately collapsed
I see, giving Spy Kids 3 the respect it deserves.
I'm just going to say the original Spyro 2 and 3 had the best swimming controls in 3D for their time and still feel good today. Reignited is unfortunately disappointing af in that regard as it doesn't feel nearly as smooth.
I don't bother giving many things a "thumbs up", but I always feel the need to after watching one of these. They are criminally overlooked!
Appreciate your take and delivery. It works well
"the floor is Eldritch" is genius!
Love tinykin. Good game, and as someone who never had the right console for Pikmin, it's nice to see old mechanics in new games so I can try it out
I can't tell if I want you to read me bedtime stories or narrate about a grizzled detective following up on a lead
Smooth and well-delivered as always man. Cheers and thanks for setting the record straight 🍻
Sonic is never not comparable to a carton of milk left in the hottest of summer days
I think one old designs that was abandoned was tank controls. The reason being that whatever these could do, other types of controls could do better, be it horror game and otherwise. It seems that these controls seem to work the best where tank controls are the main aspect of the game to overcome.
Out of all the genres, the most recent example where it did work is Stephen's Sausage Roll which is a puzzle game and where tank controls play an integral role for solving puzzles.
There are exceptions, like QTE that are "do or die" - but I have no problem with those that provide different/additional outcomes when you pass like in mass effect 2. Or that are hilarious if you fail on purpose like Quantic dreams' (just watch a let's play for this one of course).
I don't understand the example "lava as a design" though. Isn't lava more of a setting ? Or is the design "fall = instant death" ? Cause spikes do that often too. Or maybe its fun to have a cold take on lava
Wrll one of the more interesting take on why lava in game design was seen as bad is about its in universe incoherence,like i the many "factory" levels where there is an unexplained amont of molten metal with zero sécurity around it whatsoever regardless of what the factory produces
Cold take is my favorite thing on TH-cam right now
I did not know I needed a noir detective telling me about gaming until I checked this series out. Now I need the hell out of it.
Now you have to give us a roguelike soulslike deckbuilder dating sim open-world Sonic the Hedgehog game. You promised!
"Good, I say. I could use more of all of those. I wasn't done with them."
That's such a powerful line, and I can't even explain why. Maybe it's just how it's said, or the context it's responding to.
What was the game around 7:01 ? It looked interesting
Supraland. Nice 3D metroidvania
The sunken ship 'water' levels of Tomb Raider 2 were brilliant. Controls aside it's one of the most interesting and atmospheric locations in the entire franchise.
I doubt we'll see its like again as old-shipwreck-but-still-fillable-with-air stretches credibility when you have more a realistic tone & visuals.
Something I was thinking about recently as people were putting out 10-year retrospectives on BioShock Infinite and Last of Us was how those games both had a plot framed around an escort mission while completely eschewing actual escort gameplay, and they were both readily praised for it. "Escort missions" are generally seen as anathema nowadays, but I always thought the concept held loads of potential for ludonarrative harmony. Making you help someone in gameplay as well as in cutscenes. Ico and Brothers: A Tale of Two Sons are some games built heavily around escort mechanics that tell a more impactful story for it.
TH-cam is finally recognizing these as good enough that they get instantly recommended to me and all I can say is it's about time!
""I'm old, not obsolete."
I need to check out Revita, looks very interesting. I played Dredge, and while the concept is promising, the execution left much to be desired in my opinion.
Skies of Arcadia and suikoden and Chrono trigger are the kind of "oLd" RPGs we need in this era
i don't even think that outdated is bad, a lot of people say that fixed camera is an outdated mechanic, but i quite like it, there are creative ways to use this style of camera, in my eyes it's as viable as fps or tps if used well.
outstanding piece this week
"The floor is Eldritch!" ... ... Love it...
Love that he brought up Majora's Mask when it came to swimming
It's baffling they've never returned to that zora movement
I'd love an open world zora game
Crazy, just rewatched the classic AVGN video on Jekyll & Hyde before this, and that was the first game shown!
To be fair, if a game has "Mystery of the Volcano" in the title I'd be a pretty surprised if there WASN'T lava at some point.
Maybe that is the mystery.
"Where the FUCK is all the lava?"
That was my first thought too; although, upon reflection, I think that was a deliberate joke of including one of the game titles that MOST suggests lava in his list of games where lava would be unexpected XD
what game is it at 1:10?
Tinykin
@@TheOtherFrost thank you!
Consistently excellent videos, thank you
It's a bit of a catch-22. You do a tried-and-tested design trope, it's been done already, probably to death. Yet, when you go out of your way to do something usual, 9/10 times you reinvent the wheel because there's nothing new under the sun. What's a developer to do? You do a tried-and-tested design but do an *unusually good implementation*. That's when old design can be good design.
I, for one, think "the floor is Eldritch" sounds awesome
Feels like this sentence "This game feels old" only spoken for the people have no fond memories or there is no remarkable game they've played before all the way back, or even unable to see any rough dimaond
"Forget it, Jake. It's Sonic Team."
I do yearn for certain eras of gaming but with a fresh coat of paint and quality of life improvements. Metroidvania's do a stellar job of fulfilling my GBA days. But I do wish we would go back to the 6th console generation for Kart Racers rather than now where everything feels like a Mario Kart 7 clone.
Though on the note of Metroidvania's it feels like there is an entirely new school of them that don't fall into a historic category. Anything inspired by Dark Souls/Hollow Knight is severely different from Metroidvania's of old or their priorities.
I appreciate you mentioning the MM water temple in a positive way. It seems to get a lot of undeserved hate. I really liked it.
We need more modern single player fps games styled off the ones from the early to mid 2000s. Those games had so many fun ideas.
Glad to know I’m not the only one who never played Subnautica because he was ascared of the water. thalassophobes unite!
Voice so smooth, I want it to narrate my biography.
I think "of its time" is a much better phrase than simply "old" games such as the original ff7 have aged terribly, clunky menus that especially in combat can be a pain to navigate anything that isnt basic attacks, and a lot of the environments ots really hard to tell what's background detail and where I'm supposed to be able to go, and the script os cobbled together by one trnaslator in 2 weeks and reads more stiff than google translate, but I really like the game despite only playing it for the first time last year. Some of its timely quirks are oddly charming, and even if modern turn based rpgs have much more fun combat and visually clear dungeons such as octopath or modern dragon quest, there's still a tangible difference, the games stand out as unique, even if I wish we got a more faithful ff7 remake that wasn't a gacha game so some of the games biggest problems such as how obtuse vincent is to find, the prior mentioned menu and area clarity issues and needing to check a guide constantly because your only clue on where to go was one vague line in a non repeatable cutscene. (I like this game I swear)
Jesus Christ this series is so good. Glad I tuned in
What is that game at 7:05?
Supraland
@@jomojas5786 Thank you!
pikmin. seriously. need calm? its got calm. need peace? its got peace. and it'll teach you things, things parents were SUPPOSED to be teaching, like focus on the task at hand so you can relax later, stop and smell the roses, see how much time you have and plan accordingly, whether its 13 minutes in pikmin 1 or how long it is till the pizza rolls are done in pikmin 2, or the mix in pikmin 3.
i remember i got really sentimental on pikmin, enough that even arlo liked it. the comments said pikmin was about slavery
if thats all you got from this series, im so sorry your brain outright failed you. scold it, ground it for a while, and set it on the right path
This series is pure whiskey-soaked cigar-smoked stream-of-consciousness poetry.
It's ain't bad, just exhausting.
A cold take about cold takes themselves. They’re old, but they can be a expounded upon
Seriously, indie games are saving the game's industry. A lot of these games are hella good!!
Wanted: Dead looks fun as hell. It was designed as a loveletter to PS2 era action games and a lot of people hate it for that.
Sorry. Can anyone tell me what that game starting at 7:07 is?
"The floor is eldritch" fuckin rules