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“I don’t necessarily enjoy being the guy wearing cleats in the bouncy house but somebody had to keep a firm footing around here” I cannot wait to use this in my actual life
As a relatively avid modder... I hate the modders will fix it mentality. I always play the base game vanilla before modding... its gotta be a good base game first.
If modders have to do the work to get a game into an actually acceptable state, they should be allowed to _demand_ the developer pay them for their time. Bandai Namco should have compensated Durante for making DSfix, because Dark Souls: Prepare to Die Edition was a disgrace until he came along (and remained a disgrace even after he did, because with DSfix out BN never felt the need to actually fix the game themselves until they just did a "remake" and made everyone pay for the whole thing again). It doesn't matter if modding work is "unsolicited", if you can prove that a game is a blatantly-unfinished product until you stepped in to make it acceptable to the community yourself, you should be able to _force_ the developer/publisher to compensate you. Yeah, it'd be as abusable as hell, but at this stage, _fuck_ the "triple-AEYYY" games industry.
100% Agreed! Hell release the source code and don't copyright strike free content associated with said game so modders can share how to's and uploads for a game the devs refused to make properly in the 1st place. Lol
The best mods are the ones that are subtle to the point that you could swear they were part of the vanilla experience, until you turn them off and realize the game is so much worse without them. Like SkyUI in Skyrim, or Quest Objectives on Map in Witcher 3. They don't really change the vanilla experience, they just improve the user experience.
for me its floating markers on Witcher 3. I realized that I really like the experience of playing Witcher 3 without a minimap, it forces me to look at the beautiful world they crafted to navigate it, instead of just keeping my eyes glued to the minimap. but the game is not designed to be played without minimap, so floating markers fix that.
@@raythe9264 yeah, I rather see the greatest aspect of modding as being able to tailor the experience to one's personal ultra-specific needs, rather than any "objective" improvement. If it IS an "objective" improvement (and a lot of times it isn't) then it's a failure on the developer's part (or publisher's as the case may be)
I like quest stuff that feels like it was always part of the world. I can't play vanilla skyrim anymore hell the creation club don't feel like canon at all. I can't even play vanilla fallout games cuz I need 2 mods to make most of them even work on PC
It's funny: on the one hand you have older games that simply won't work anymore without modding and on the other you have recent ones that often aren't worth playing without modding. The former is something I'm eternally grateful to those modders for, the latter is something I can only shake my head at the developers and publishers in disappointment.
Modders have become the new customers for scalpers. If you didn't have the former, you wouldn't have the latter either. Anyone who continues to buy day one games from EA, Ubisoft and every other known beta release publisher shares blame in fact. I never pre-order games and rarely buy day 1. On PC it's not just a necessity, it makes it infinitely cheaper as well.
While I don't normally mod, since I often end up spending so much time trying to arrange mods and set them up that by the time I'm done, I don't even want to p[lay the game anymore. I really love how Cities: Skylines does it. They don't over-promise, and they're up front about what the game will be. That being said, sometimes people want a feature in the game that the developers didn't put in, so they have full Steam Workshop support. All you have to do is click "add" and the mod is in the game and working. They even gave early access to the game to some of the more popular modders for the sequel, and some of the original mod authors for the first game were hired onto the team. The ease of modding makes it really accessible, and personally speaking, there are a lot of mods that are so useful, I genuinely don't think I could play the game without them anymore
In my experience, there are two kinds of mods, and this video’s mostly talking about the first one. Where changes are made to enhance the original experience the game was meant to give. The other type use the base game as a launching point to provide a different experience. My Minecraft example would be something that adds a minimap, new biomes to explore, or blocks to build with; versus something that adds industrial machines, mining lasers, or magic superpowers.
Yeah, the Cyberpunk hype was largely fueled by how much everyone remembered how much fun they had with the Witcher while conveniently forgetting how much of a bugfest it was on release and how many mods they installed to fix stuff like graphics, weight limits, weapon durability.
My favorite type of mod is the one where it's the modder flexing their own creative muscles and creating an entire experience of their own that can be judged separately from the game it uses as it's basis. Things like the Doom Total Conversion community or that one Skyrim project to make like 7 Elder Scrolls games
I always hate it when people say that they fixed No Man's Sky out of their goodwill. No, they just used your money to crowdfund an early access game without telling you it was early access.
As someone who does (install, not make) mod a lot, a company that uses modders to fix their games is a problem that tends to solve itself, since if the game itself isn't good, or worse has no potential to be made good, then the modders will never show and the game will implode. What really gets my goat and other farm animals is when a company tries to make money off the mods, either by having paid mods or trying to find some way to get a piece of that pie.
The only game I’ve ever hardcore modded was Titanfall 2, because the only way to play it online was to do so after Respawn threw the game to the wolves.
The argument with hair doesnt really describe the issue properly. the developer release a mediocre burger with hair, but with mods you can not only mod out the hair, but you can turn that burger into a 3 michelin star burger catered to your taste buds. And the thing is you will never find game so good that it can surpass the modded experience. no matter how much time the developper use to finish their game, they will never be able to. Also the unfinished game releases isnt due to modding. The vast majority of AAA games these days are released unfinished, even if theyre not really modable. Theres extremely few games that are known for having lots of mods, especially mods that fixes the game. Like Starfield is a rushed and unpolished game, now since its a bethesda game mods can fix it. However bethesda is the exception, not the standard. becuase bethesda is very unique in the way they give the tools for modding to their players. I still think theyve shouldve used another year to finish the game, it would allow em to get GOTY, and it would be an even better start for their new IP, but the stock owners disagree.
for me mods only exist for 2 things. a indie game with an excellent base to stand on that could use more content and gameplay variation, so modders turn it into a bed to explore their own gameplay and story ideas. or a great game that has done everything it can and is starting to become dull and boring after the 30th playthrough, so now you mod to change your experience and let you keep enjoying it. and of course, as an honorable mention, the game is good but something in specific is not to your taste.
For examples of the first type, Terraria and Factorio come to mind, I suppose. Stuff like Calamity/TSA, or Py/AngelBob. Just to make the game even more insane.
honestly this is an AMAZING take on modern AAA Gaming as a whole, I had not known you till recently but man I like the way you think. Glad to know theres a guy with a cool voice on our side of the ring. You made many, many excellent points in varied ways that really engage the listener (and will exist as talking points for me in the future), thank you very much.
I do love mods and passionate modders and the choice they present you with to effectively take a game and make it a tailored experience. I resent the mindset of some that they look at an utterly broken game and defend the company releasing it by saying that modders will fix it.
i think its more about apathy. Cause corporations are greedy and theres no real way to stop em. and even lets say bethesda failed cause they released an unfinished game, it wouldnt change the industry, at all. most of the games that have been released in an unfinished state arent very modable. and wether mods can fix it or not is not the reason they release it in that state. The reason they release it like that is cause stock owners wants stocks to go up so they force deadlines. They dont care about your experience, they care about growing and profits. your experience with games is secondary.
Another deeply enjoyable new (to me) series from the Escapist! What a pleasant surprise to have the channel expand with well-written, well-presented and insightful new stuff to watch; and with nobody's gurning face to flap back and forth on my screen. I'm a big fan of the way things are going - well done all round, and keep it up. This is fast turning into my favourite media-discussing place on the Internet.
"I want to experience someone's artistic vision" I mean, a mod is just someone else's artistic vision. Mods are like fanfiction, really. They certainly don't "fix" the original piece of art, they just provide an alternative/additional piece of art.
Drives me mad that day 1 launch for games especially AAA, it’s become standard to be broken or buggy on launch and we’ll just fix it after or even worse, the community will fix it for you. Skyrim unofficial patch comes to mind. Mods are fine, anybody can do anything and enjoy additions, substitutions or extra content in the way they choose. But let’s get rid of the crutch for publishers to put out hot messes and charge us 70 bucks for the privilege.
You're not modifying final creative vision, but corporate vision (or incompetence) and/or budget and time constraint vision. See modders as an extra employee working extra hours pro bono. At least for fixers and QOL modders.
I have a rule I follow when it comes to PC games: my first playthrough is always completely vanilla. If a game isn't good enough to hold my interest on its own, I won't waste any time trying to improve it via mods.
I absolutely agree with the opinion that mods can interfere with the original artistic vision. That's why i think the best way to enjoy mods is on a 2nd play through. It can be an absolutely awesome experience!
I would almost agree, save for the tragedy of bugthesda releases. Often, playing with the unofficial patch at a minimum makes you see LESS of the intended vanilla experience. But such is the price for supporting their work. Thank god Starfield looks boring as all hell, no way they'll be getting any cash from me on that one.
@@somegal3836 LMAOOO on that I agree, Bethesda games are an anomaly. People praise FO4 but I cannot grasp why. The game wouldn't be half as fun without mods.
Modding is a feature that hasn't been with Playstation and as lifelong Fan its starting to become an issue for me. Seeing how easily people have been to add features like Custom Suits In Playstations Spiderman/Mile Morales, or even something small like being able to add your own music to the Chopper Mixtape in MGSV kills me in how these small Improvements and the ability for the Consumer/Fan base to be allowed to tweak and mess with the files a little bit like you can on PC isn't being supported.
This is half of why my personal policy is to play a game for as much of the base experience as I'm willing to have before I even look into the modding scene, and that much only if I'm still positively inclined to the base game. The other half being that the purest experience can only be had fresh, where mods tend to work best on altering what is already familiar.
I'm still in love with this show's style. The host's voice is, as I'm sure everyone can agree, an absolute gift to our ears. I assume Cold Take is out of the lab at this point, because I feel like it's an unmitigated success!
There are some games where the mods really make the game. Not because the game was bad or broken without them... But because the mods can transform the game into something different. You can select which mods you like and tailor the game to be just how you imagine it. Then try different mods and have a completely different experience. Some make the game better for me. Some make it worse. But either way I'm grateful to the people who put the time in to make their creativity come to life. Mostly I'm thinking about Rimworld. Love that game and the modding community.
The problem I see here is that 2077's mods don't really add much in the way of what was promised. I'm biased here because the areas in which 2077 falls short of promises I don't really care much about. But the sole mods I use consistantly are for changing the driving (which is more my personal preference) and for a lot of ludonarratively dissonant cosmetic stuff like V having Johnny's arm. 2077's problem isn't No Man's Sky's problem. Both released unfinished, the latter because vast swaths of content didn't come packaged, the former because the game was unstable and unsuitable for previous gen consoles. The actual content was there from the start. I do think the idea of modders fixing it is something creeping into the AAA games industry but frankly this is an exaggeration that jumps from real and cited instances like Witcher III paying modders to have their features implemented to "this game released bad, modders totally fixed it yo" with 0 actual examples.
Excellent video! One-hundred percent with you! Just wanted to add that CPR with their witcher 3 update messed up countless last-gen save files and have not fixed it yet (despite having promised to do so some time ago).
I concede, mods should not redeem the developers, but I have this itch whenever I see a game that was SOOO close to good. It sucks not because of bugs, or even major mechanics, but just tweaking drop rates or little quality of life things that otherwise become an inflamed thorn in my side. There IS a good game here if only “x”, if only “y”, but I know that’s a bad mentality, tempting as it is.
Dan Olson’s video “Why it’s rude to suck at World of Warcraft” does highlight an interesting case in which modders have taken the highly customizable UI of the game and ran it into the ground. It ranges though: some add-ons are purely cosmetic or ergonomically useful, while other add-ons essentially tell you what to do exactly to handle the toughest of encounters. While there’s no foul in modding single-player only games, it does get a bit more messier when said games either have a multiplayer component or are built around online play.
I somewhat disagree with this take because good mod support is still something that only a small subset of games enjoy. I wholeheartedly believe that if all Skyrim had were mods that fixed it's bugs it would not have lasted nearly as long in the public gaming zeitgeist. Sure there are the silly Macho Man Randy Savage mods, but there are also mods made by very talented people that release whole expansions to the game such as Beyond Skyrim Bruma or Legacy of the Dragonborn. Because yes, mods do change the artistic vision of a game, but why is the artistic vision of the big studios deemed superior to the dedicated modders? Mods are the way to see the artistic vision of a whole plethora of different people, they allow you to build and expand upon a game that you already like. And really, I will take a buggy moddable mess any day over a microtransaction laden hell hole. Personally, I find games like cyberpunk 2077 or Skyrim, games whose base game is buggy but regardless they allow for mods that help to fix the game and improve upon it, to be infinitely better than the greedy manipulative alternative of games like Diablo Immortal.
I feel like the phrase "the modders will fix it" is just a Coping mechanism for gamers that have just lost hope. If a game needs to be "modded" to be "good" is UNACCEPTABLE!!!!! Unless we are talking about modding a game from 20 years ago so it will Run on modern hardware, any "mod" for game should be ADDING to the game, NOT fixing it cus the devs where TOO lazy to do it themselves. Bethesda is notorious for this, their games has SO Many Bugs that never get fixed. So many so we have "Unofficial Patches" for some of their games. Bethesda knows this, so they made the Creation Club to Monetize the Modders additional Content. Hell those sold YET ANOTHER version of Skyrim with Additional Mod content, like fishing for 70$.
Cyberpunk fans be like from "Give them time to fix it!" to "Modders will fix it". This irritates me, devs already got away with it and people are content. The "true vision" of CP2077 won't be there anymore since modders "somewhat" fixed it for them.
As a small time modder myself the comparison to a mischievous minor deity made me smile, I often liken myself to a magician who masks their cheap parlour tricks behind showy presentation.
A very good point and honestly that's a destructive behavior I've already seen in myself. I didn't get Cyberpunk 2077 refunded with the thought "In a year I'm sure the mods will be amazing for this game."
A praying mantis bite just pinches a little. They eat butterflies and dragonflies and stuff. Best thing to do there is trap it underneath a plastic Tupperware leftover bowl, slowly slide it across the keyboard, onto a book or something, putting it in a little makeshift cage, and then carry it outside.
I hate the AAA practice of releasing an incomplete or simply broken game and still with no care still ask full price, more, if you bought the "deluxe" version. However as someone who mods games, it not right to create this system where others are being back door manipulated basically into fixing and making games that should have been at that level to begin with. Yes, mods come in all shapes and sizes and do different things. Though, if I need to mod my game to simply make it playable to a degree where it's not an eyesore or just a nightmare to play, that tells me there is a distinct failure on the developers/publishers part for whatever reason and they are just footing the bill and pain onto the consumer and just shaving a little profit off the top to cover their respective asses and bury others.
I mostly just use mods that add cool or stupid extra content, usually from games that have built-in mod support. One of my favorites is the Monster Prom Modtool, which is easy to use, and playing with the various mods has added so many hours to my playtime.
I worry that many western game directors actually wanted to film/show directors and we keep praising them for making games more like movies over making good games.
Modding is definitely a double edge sword. One hand it is great to be able to heavily mod Skyrim in order to make it a completely different game, even adding new fully voiced DLC sized quests, on the other it is often a defense people use to defend criticizing said game. I have a feeling starfield is going to release buggy and broken even including known engine bugs that modders have been fixing for decades since Bethesda refuses to notice and copy said fixes. These issues will be hand waved away because mods.
Its basically putting your fate in the hands of another, which is oddly risky for AAA but probably not as risky as I think since they make most of their money on preorders and first day sales. In theory, only games worth fixing will be fixed. In practice, there is always someone dedicated enough to the game to fix it.
Setting aside Sebastian's incredibly, beautifully, distractingly mellifluous voice, I agree with most everything in this Cold Take. I mod every game I get my hands on. Nothing major. Mostly gameplay mechanics tweaks to suit my preference. That and adding 'u' back into 'honor' and 'armor' and correcting the disaster that is 'aluminum.' (Also, 2077 is one of my favourite games and I love pretty much everything about it.)
Yeah. There was a point in time where I was against modding games at all. Just didn’t seem right adding your own touches to someone else’s artwork. Now it’s more like I’m against modding as a selling point. Like if the core of a game is really good, you don’t need to mess with it. Plus it just seems like a way for devs to let the fans do the work they should be doing to improve the game and not facing accountability
I don't know about fixing the errors of the developers, but I see modding as a good thing when (some) of the player base bring even further promise to a game what the developers had originally already given what they promised to.
I have a number of problems with this. Modders fixing games hasn't stopped people from complaining about broken games, and they can't make content which has been promised by devs, like Halo's forge mode, theatre mode, or ranked playlist (well they could, but it would be a huge task, and the devs already promised to make it). The other problem is that Pokemon Scarlet running like shit hasn't stopped people from buying it en masse. I don't think anyone has ever bought a game thinking "it's fine, modders will fix it if it's broken!" They'll buy it if they think it looks good, and sometimes they'll even forgive the jank like they always have. Holding people to account is a nice idea, but in cases like this it doesn't seem to matter, and people will buy the next pokemon game when it comes out. They always do. Remember the huge outrage about CoD Black Ops III? Neither can I really, but I remember enough to say that, whatever people were complaining about, it wasn't enough to hurt sales. Or how about Bethesda games in general? We've already given them pretty much a free pass on being buggy messes since Oblivion launched in 2006. It's a bit late to start complaining now. I would also point out that publishers have already gotten away with pushing so many things on consumers that they never asked for, like regular microtransactions, loot boxes, NFTs (though they seem to have backed off of that for now) and now the 'live service' model, and we have never been able to stop it completely. I think part of the reason games are launching in a broken state these days is because of the huge increase in game size and the desire for publishers to earn profit exponentially. Something has to give, and it's never going to be profit. Also, on the subject of artistic vision, you talk as though any game is made by one creative force - this is never the case. I'd argue that modification is merely a continued development of the game. That's more about interpretation though. I can certainly see why someone would think that about Ruby's Halo mods, as they fundamentally rebalance the game.
I love modding, but it definitely has some drawbacks that we don’t discuss enough. That messing with artistic vision argument. For example, I liked how grey and drab Skyrim was at release because it conveyed how bleak and difficult tundra life in Skyrim was. But it was the most modded thing about the game, so they changed it for the re-release. Now base Skyrim looks like a more generic rpg. There is definitely value to this collaborative style of game design, but personally, i think it’s not best for a single work of art to have it’s final version or sequels designed by committee. It’s the same feeling i got with the star wars sequels.
@@Dr0ctagonapus5 No I'm aware of Forge in general, but it sounds like this one is different from the previous ones? Or honestly, it sounded like someone modded Halo, given the context.
@@CrimsonKage The devs are allowing the players to fix Infinite for them by adding modes and maps that should already be there. 343 has yet to add infection to the game, but the players made a working version in less than a day once forge was released.
He's got a point. The fact that modders have to fix broken games released by the developer is a travesty. If anything, modders should be using that time to make new experiences the game can have with some tweaking, not freely fix the bugs the game shipped with.
I wonder how the scales will tip with the Last of Us PC port. If it'll be abandoned by the devs after the most inconceivable incongruities have been ironed out, to be picked up and reinvigorated by the modders, or if they'll do their job for once and finish providing a port worthy of its story
I don't know if I'm in the majority or not, but I don't mod anything. This might be because I've always plays on console, but even when the PS4 offers mod support I had no interest. So this concept is inherently flawed unless it's a PC-only release. Even then some might not even bother with mods.
I have made some modifications to games in the past. Mostly to better understand mechanics and gameplay functionality. Things like tweaking a stat to max or something impossible within game, then running around with the stick man. I speak of, specifically, Stoneshard, an early access game whose development team are currently fighting Russia. In that game, you have five stats, if memory serves, strength, dexterity, perception, constitution and intelligence. Due to those earlier builds, only two stats were seen as dump stats, and two of them being supporters for said stats. Only constitution was to be ignored. See the game had limb based damaged, and your health fluctuates wildly and quickly. Three rounds of melee combat that went south and you probably be dead or close to it. Constitution gave you a single hit point, and raised the damage thresholds for your limbs by 1%. So, that got me tweaking with the game files to see at what point does constitution help any character, and that was roughly 50. You start at 10, and the level cap is 30. You would never reach it, so I started discussions about it, and that lead to the developers buffing constitution to be better. No body puts points into it any more, as the developers encrypted the game files, to make modifying them that much more difficult.
Your writing, these analogies, are killing me, hahah. "That's enough sour for this amaretto," haha, so good. That being said, you said it well, it's a symbiotic relationship, though that doesn't mean Johnny Triple-A can get away with unfinished games.
Here's the hardest thought. Triple A devs wouldn't create garbage for the community to fix if the community didn't buy garbage in the 1st place. This is ESPECIALLY true with the console scene, BUT it is STILL extremely prevalent in PC gaming as well with graphical restrictions. Gaming is unique as far as entertainment goes simple because this is the only medium whom seems to be willing to consistently deal with this kind of bulls***! Lol.
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Simply put, the time modders invest in making a game meet spec is time they're not putting into making it better than that.
Or into a game/passion project of their own. It's no surprise that some content mods later turn into actual games.
@@AfroPiano like repentance in the binding of Isaac
Well said.
“I don’t necessarily enjoy being the guy wearing cleats in the bouncy house but somebody had to keep a firm footing around here”
I cannot wait to use this in my actual life
As a relatively avid modder... I hate the modders will fix it mentality. I always play the base game vanilla before modding... its gotta be a good base game first.
Idk if it's against zp rules, but care to post a link to some of your work? Would love to show support!
Or the base game is free. You get what you pay for. Lol. 😉
"Here you go, modders, polish this turd until you find the diamond ring buried in it, we'll be swimming in our McDuck vaults." - AAA Execs
Then steal your mods and try to make off it or release it in the sequel but, implemented way worst lol.
‘polish this turd till you tired and convinced yourself its now good combat’
AAA can stAAAy awAAAy
You want modders to fix it, release your source code. Otherwise, fix it yourself.
Both. Do both.
If modders have to do the work to get a game into an actually acceptable state, they should be allowed to _demand_ the developer pay them for their time. Bandai Namco should have compensated Durante for making DSfix, because Dark Souls: Prepare to Die Edition was a disgrace until he came along (and remained a disgrace even after he did, because with DSfix out BN never felt the need to actually fix the game themselves until they just did a "remake" and made everyone pay for the whole thing again). It doesn't matter if modding work is "unsolicited", if you can prove that a game is a blatantly-unfinished product until you stepped in to make it acceptable to the community yourself, you should be able to _force_ the developer/publisher to compensate you. Yeah, it'd be as abusable as hell, but at this stage, _fuck_ the "triple-AEYYY" games industry.
100% Agreed! Hell release the source code and don't copyright strike free content associated with said game so modders can share how to's and uploads for a game the devs refused to make properly in the 1st place. Lol
@@ArcaneAzmadi As a modder, this is completely deranged
This new series is a great addition
The chill style is such a good balance to Yahtzee's rapid fire jokey way of presenting things.
Modders will fix it, but it doesn't mean they should have to.
The best mods are the ones that are subtle to the point that you could swear they were part of the vanilla experience, until you turn them off and realize the game is so much worse without them. Like SkyUI in Skyrim, or Quest Objectives on Map in Witcher 3.
They don't really change the vanilla experience, they just improve the user experience.
for me its floating markers on Witcher 3. I realized that I really like the experience of playing Witcher 3 without a minimap, it forces me to look at the beautiful world they crafted to navigate it, instead of just keeping my eyes glued to the minimap. but the game is not designed to be played without minimap, so floating markers fix that.
which, user experience, is subjective, so your point is sorta moot as it cannot be a universal conclusion.
@@raythe9264 yeah, I rather see the greatest aspect of modding as being able to tailor the experience to one's personal ultra-specific needs, rather than any "objective" improvement. If it IS an "objective" improvement (and a lot of times it isn't) then it's a failure on the developer's part (or publisher's as the case may be)
I like quest stuff that feels like it was always part of the world. I can't play vanilla skyrim anymore hell the creation club don't feel like canon at all. I can't even play vanilla fallout games cuz I need 2 mods to make most of them even work on PC
I also think so, thats why when I play skyrim, I only get the thomas the tank engine dragons mod.
Sebastian continues to impress with nuance, panache, and top tier vocal performance. Love these videos. Hope this series will continue.
Not only does every sentiment here resonate with me, but I could also listen to this guy's awesome voice read a phone book and still be captivated.
Same.
True. But do people even know what a phone book is anymore?
It's funny: on the one hand you have older games that simply won't work anymore without modding and on the other you have recent ones that often aren't worth playing without modding. The former is something I'm eternally grateful to those modders for, the latter is something I can only shake my head at the developers and publishers in disappointment.
Modders have become the new customers for scalpers. If you didn't have the former, you wouldn't have the latter either. Anyone who continues to buy day one games from EA, Ubisoft and every other known beta release publisher shares blame in fact. I never pre-order games and rarely buy day 1. On PC it's not just a necessity, it makes it infinitely cheaper as well.
"You see, Sean Murray is the kind of guy Peter Molyneux wishes he could over-promise he could be."
Sebastian, you are quite the a wordsmith.
While I don't normally mod, since I often end up spending so much time trying to arrange mods and set them up that by the time I'm done, I don't even want to p[lay the game anymore. I really love how Cities: Skylines does it. They don't over-promise, and they're up front about what the game will be. That being said, sometimes people want a feature in the game that the developers didn't put in, so they have full Steam Workshop support. All you have to do is click "add" and the mod is in the game and working. They even gave early access to the game to some of the more popular modders for the sequel, and some of the original mod authors for the first game were hired onto the team. The ease of modding makes it really accessible, and personally speaking, there are a lot of mods that are so useful, I genuinely don't think I could play the game without them anymore
That dig at Peter Molyneux was a thing of beauty.
In my experience, there are two kinds of mods, and this video’s mostly talking about the first one. Where changes are made to enhance the original experience the game was meant to give. The other type use the base game as a launching point to provide a different experience.
My Minecraft example would be something that adds a minimap, new biomes to explore, or blocks to build with; versus something that adds industrial machines, mining lasers, or magic superpowers.
Yeah, the Cyberpunk hype was largely fueled by how much everyone remembered how much fun they had with the Witcher while conveniently forgetting how much of a bugfest it was on release and how many mods they installed to fix stuff like graphics, weight limits, weapon durability.
I really enjoy Cold Take. The entire vibe and being informative, it's a nice combination, pretty chill. No pun intended.
My favorite type of mod is the one where it's the modder flexing their own creative muscles and creating an entire experience of their own that can be judged separately from the game it uses as it's basis. Things like the Doom Total Conversion community or that one Skyrim project to make like 7 Elder Scrolls games
I always hate it when people say that they fixed No Man's Sky out of their goodwill. No, they just used your money to crowdfund an early access game without telling you it was early access.
As someone who does (install, not make) mod a lot, a company that uses modders to fix their games is a problem that tends to solve itself, since if the game itself isn't good, or worse has no potential to be made good, then the modders will never show and the game will implode. What really gets my goat and other farm animals is when a company tries to make money off the mods, either by having paid mods or trying to find some way to get a piece of that pie.
That cleats in the bounce house line is wildly good
Best new series! Favorite quote. "That's enough sour for this amoretto."
I really hope these series are doing well. I enjoy the variety that Escapist is having
The only game I’ve ever hardcore modded was Titanfall 2, because the only way to play it online was to do so after Respawn threw the game to the wolves.
The argument with hair doesnt really describe the issue properly. the developer release a mediocre burger with hair, but with mods you can not only mod out the hair, but you can turn that burger into a 3 michelin star burger catered to your taste buds.
And the thing is you will never find game so good that it can surpass the modded experience. no matter how much time the developper use to finish their game, they will never be able to.
Also the unfinished game releases isnt due to modding. The vast majority of AAA games these days are released unfinished, even if theyre not really modable. Theres extremely few games that are known for having lots of mods, especially mods that fixes the game.
Like Starfield is a rushed and unpolished game, now since its a bethesda game mods can fix it. However bethesda is the exception, not the standard. becuase bethesda is very unique in the way they give the tools for modding to their players. I still think theyve shouldve used another year to finish the game, it would allow em to get GOTY, and it would be an even better start for their new IP, but the stock owners disagree.
This is a very cool aesthetic in doing a video game essay
I haven’t been so entertained and engaged in gaming journalism in a long time. These Cold Takes are fantastic 👍
for me mods only exist for 2 things. a indie game with an excellent base to stand on that could use more content and gameplay variation, so modders turn it into a bed to explore their own gameplay and story ideas. or a great game that has done everything it can and is starting to become dull and boring after the 30th playthrough, so now you mod to change your experience and let you keep enjoying it. and of course, as an honorable mention, the game is good but something in specific is not to your taste.
For examples of the first type, Terraria and Factorio come to mind, I suppose. Stuff like Calamity/TSA, or Py/AngelBob. Just to make the game even more insane.
some games fall into a secret fourth category of mods being there to fix the game after it had a bad pc port, sonic adventure dx is a good example
honestly this is an AMAZING take on modern AAA Gaming as a whole, I had not known you till recently but man I like the way you think. Glad to know theres a guy with a cool voice on our side of the ring. You made many, many excellent points in varied ways that really engage the listener (and will exist as talking points for me in the future), thank you very much.
it would have been a shame if we had guys with uncool voices on our side if the ring
@@Medytacjusz in my headset most people confuse me for a teen and I am 30, so yeah i don't like being the one to talk lol
I do love mods and passionate modders and the choice they present you with to effectively take a game and make it a tailored experience. I resent the mindset of some that they look at an utterly broken game and defend the company releasing it by saying that modders will fix it.
i think its more about apathy. Cause corporations are greedy and theres no real way to stop em. and even lets say bethesda failed cause they released an unfinished game, it wouldnt change the industry, at all. most of the games that have been released in an unfinished state arent very modable. and wether mods can fix it or not is not the reason they release it in that state.
The reason they release it like that is cause stock owners wants stocks to go up so they force deadlines. They dont care about your experience, they care about growing and profits. your experience with games is secondary.
Another deeply enjoyable new (to me) series from the Escapist! What a pleasant surprise to have the channel expand with well-written, well-presented and insightful new stuff to watch; and with nobody's gurning face to flap back and forth on my screen. I'm a big fan of the way things are going - well done all round, and keep it up. This is fast turning into my favourite media-discussing place on the Internet.
"I want to experience someone's artistic vision"
I mean, a mod is just someone else's artistic vision. Mods are like fanfiction, really. They certainly don't "fix" the original piece of art, they just provide an alternative/additional piece of art.
This is now the second series on this channel that I'll be watching even if the title doesn't hook me, I was already hooked after all.
Drives me mad that day 1 launch for games especially AAA, it’s become standard to be broken or buggy on launch and we’ll just fix it after or even worse, the community will fix it for you. Skyrim unofficial patch comes to mind.
Mods are fine, anybody can do anything and enjoy additions, substitutions or extra content in the way they choose. But let’s get rid of the crutch for publishers to put out hot messes and charge us 70 bucks for the privilege.
You're not modifying final creative vision, but corporate vision (or incompetence) and/or budget and time constraint vision.
See modders as an extra employee working extra hours pro bono. At least for fixers and QOL modders.
Exactly. Or *fixing bad console ports* that run at a pathetic 30 FPS so they run at a proper 120 or even 60 FPS.
I have a rule I follow when it comes to PC games: my first playthrough is always completely vanilla. If a game isn't good enough to hold my interest on its own, I won't waste any time trying to improve it via mods.
Johnny Triple-A is that character in the movie that you really don't know if you want to root for or not.
Jesus, Frost, you have to chill with these cold takes cos they bring way too much joy to my life! Great video as always.
I absolutely agree with the opinion that mods can interfere with the original artistic vision. That's why i think the best way to enjoy mods is on a 2nd play through. It can be an absolutely awesome experience!
I would almost agree, save for the tragedy of bugthesda releases. Often, playing with the unofficial patch at a minimum makes you see LESS of the intended vanilla experience. But such is the price for supporting their work. Thank god Starfield looks boring as all hell, no way they'll be getting any cash from me on that one.
@@somegal3836 LMAOOO on that I agree, Bethesda games are an anomaly. People praise FO4 but I cannot grasp why. The game wouldn't be half as fun without mods.
There's alot of people in the total war subreddit that needs to hear this.
Nice of you guys to post Creative Assembly's mission statement in video form.
'that's enough sour for this amaretto' is gong right into the daily lexicon
Modding is a feature that hasn't been with Playstation and as lifelong Fan its starting to become an issue for me.
Seeing how easily people have been to add features like Custom Suits In Playstations Spiderman/Mile Morales,
or even something small like being able to add your own music to the Chopper Mixtape in MGSV kills me in how these small Improvements and the ability for the Consumer/Fan base to be allowed to tweak and mess with the files a little bit like you can on PC isn't being supported.
This is half of why my personal policy is to play a game for as much of the base experience as I'm willing to have before I even look into the modding scene, and that much only if I'm still positively inclined to the base game. The other half being that the purest experience can only be had fresh, where mods tend to work best on altering what is already familiar.
Mods are only accessible to PC users. Depending on modders ignores a great many gamers as irrelevant.
I get major Ron Perlman vibes from the narration and so I choose to imagine it is actually Ron Perlman writing and reading this.
Loved this, well written and easy to listen to.
I'm still in love with this show's style. The host's voice is, as I'm sure everyone can agree, an absolute gift to our ears. I assume Cold Take is out of the lab at this point, because I feel like it's an unmitigated success!
Yup, it’s a every other week series now.
@@theescapist Nice!
In this spirit: shout out to all the modders who were making arachnophobia mods for Skyrim. You are heroes for a lot of people. Cheers
And let's not forget that the Souls games would never have blown up if it wasn't for "dsfix.exe"
There are some games where the mods really make the game. Not because the game was bad or broken without them... But because the mods can transform the game into something different. You can select which mods you like and tailor the game to be just how you imagine it. Then try different mods and have a completely different experience. Some make the game better for me. Some make it worse. But either way I'm grateful to the people who put the time in to make their creativity come to life. Mostly I'm thinking about Rimworld. Love that game and the modding community.
The problem I see here is that 2077's mods don't really add much in the way of what was promised. I'm biased here because the areas in which 2077 falls short of promises I don't really care much about. But the sole mods I use consistantly are for changing the driving (which is more my personal preference) and for a lot of ludonarratively dissonant cosmetic stuff like V having Johnny's arm.
2077's problem isn't No Man's Sky's problem. Both released unfinished, the latter because vast swaths of content didn't come packaged, the former because the game was unstable and unsuitable for previous gen consoles. The actual content was there from the start. I do think the idea of modders fixing it is something creeping into the AAA games industry but frankly this is an exaggeration that jumps from real and cited instances like Witcher III paying modders to have their features implemented to "this game released bad, modders totally fixed it yo" with 0 actual examples.
Excellent video! One-hundred percent with you! Just wanted to add that CPR with their witcher 3 update messed up countless last-gen save files and have not fixed it yet (despite having promised to do so some time ago).
I concede, mods should not redeem the developers, but I have this itch whenever I see a game that was SOOO close to good. It sucks not because of bugs, or even major mechanics, but just tweaking drop rates or little quality of life things that otherwise become an inflamed thorn in my side.
There IS a good game here if only “x”, if only “y”, but I know that’s a bad mentality, tempting as it is.
Dan Olson’s video “Why it’s rude to suck at World of Warcraft” does highlight an interesting case in which modders have taken the highly customizable UI of the game and ran it into the ground. It ranges though: some add-ons are purely cosmetic or ergonomically useful, while other add-ons essentially tell you what to do exactly to handle the toughest of encounters.
While there’s no foul in modding single-player only games, it does get a bit more messier when said games either have a multiplayer component or are built around online play.
I somewhat disagree with this take because good mod support is still something that only a small subset of games enjoy. I wholeheartedly believe that if all Skyrim had were mods that fixed it's bugs it would not have lasted nearly as long in the public gaming zeitgeist. Sure there are the silly Macho Man Randy Savage mods, but there are also mods made by very talented people that release whole expansions to the game such as Beyond Skyrim Bruma or Legacy of the Dragonborn. Because yes, mods do change the artistic vision of a game, but why is the artistic vision of the big studios deemed superior to the dedicated modders? Mods are the way to see the artistic vision of a whole plethora of different people, they allow you to build and expand upon a game that you already like. And really, I will take a buggy moddable mess any day over a microtransaction laden hell hole. Personally, I find games like cyberpunk 2077 or Skyrim, games whose base game is buggy but regardless they allow for mods that help to fix the game and improve upon it, to be infinitely better than the greedy manipulative alternative of games like Diablo Immortal.
I feel like the phrase "the modders will fix it" is just a Coping mechanism for gamers that have just lost hope. If a game needs to be "modded" to be "good" is UNACCEPTABLE!!!!! Unless we are talking about modding a game from 20 years ago so it will Run on modern hardware, any "mod" for game should be ADDING to the game, NOT fixing it cus the devs where TOO lazy to do it themselves.
Bethesda is notorious for this, their games has SO Many Bugs that never get fixed. So many so we have "Unofficial Patches" for some of their games. Bethesda knows this, so they made the Creation Club to Monetize the Modders additional Content. Hell those sold YET ANOTHER version of Skyrim with Additional Mod content, like fishing for 70$.
Cyberpunk fans be like from "Give them time to fix it!" to "Modders will fix it". This irritates me, devs already got away with it and people are content. The "true vision" of CP2077 won't be there anymore since modders "somewhat" fixed it for them.
As a small time modder myself the comparison to a mischievous minor deity made me smile, I often liken myself to a magician who masks their cheap parlour tricks behind showy presentation.
A very good point and honestly that's a destructive behavior I've already seen in myself. I didn't get Cyberpunk 2077 refunded with the thought "In a year I'm sure the mods will be amazing for this game."
This man’s voice feels like a buttery massage.
A praying mantis bite just pinches a little. They eat butterflies and dragonflies and stuff. Best thing to do there is trap it underneath a plastic Tupperware leftover bowl, slowly slide it across the keyboard, onto a book or something, putting it in a little makeshift cage, and then carry it outside.
I hate the AAA practice of releasing an incomplete or simply broken game and still with no care still ask full price, more, if you bought the "deluxe" version. However as someone who mods games, it not right to create this system where others are being back door manipulated basically into fixing and making games that should have been at that level to begin with. Yes, mods come in all shapes and sizes and do different things. Though, if I need to mod my game to simply make it playable to a degree where it's not an eyesore or just a nightmare to play, that tells me there is a distinct failure on the developers/publishers part for whatever reason and they are just footing the bill and pain onto the consumer and just shaving a little profit off the top to cover their respective asses and bury others.
Amen
I mostly just use mods that add cool or stupid extra content, usually from games that have built-in mod support. One of my favorites is the Monster Prom Modtool, which is easy to use, and playing with the various mods has added so many hours to my playtime.
Great work brotha, keep up the hard work! Your a huge inspiration 🤜🤛
I worry that many western game directors actually wanted to film/show directors and we keep praising them for making games more like movies over making good games.
If only the base game was worth fixing.
Modding is definitely a double edge sword. One hand it is great to be able to heavily mod Skyrim in order to make it a completely different game, even adding new fully voiced DLC sized quests, on the other it is often a defense people use to defend criticizing said game.
I have a feeling starfield is going to release buggy and broken even including known engine bugs that modders have been fixing for decades since Bethesda refuses to notice and copy said fixes. These issues will be hand waved away because mods.
4:07 Oh hey, Demolition Man!
Its basically putting your fate in the hands of another, which is oddly risky for AAA but probably not as risky as I think since they make most of their money on preorders and first day sales.
In theory, only games worth fixing will be fixed. In practice, there is always someone dedicated enough to the game to fix it.
Put this video on EVERY PRE ORDER page
Setting aside Sebastian's incredibly, beautifully, distractingly mellifluous voice, I agree with most everything in this Cold Take.
I mod every game I get my hands on. Nothing major. Mostly gameplay mechanics tweaks to suit my preference.
That and adding 'u' back into 'honor' and 'armor' and correcting the disaster that is 'aluminum.'
(Also, 2077 is one of my favourite games and I love pretty much everything about it.)
They sure added post-processing or something on Frost's voice to make it more heavy
If AAA sells you a broken game that you have to fix yourself, does it become a puzzle game?
If you still buy knowing it’s broken, then yes it becomes a puzzle game to them.
Splendid writing, Mate! Keep it up!
"Mods don't make it good, they make it better" hah well said
this is a great series. really enjoying it
How did I not know that the smite guy with the voice also made content for the escapist
I really enjoyed this. I’m gonna do more cold takes. Might be my new favorite
Great video, as always. Where is the Witcher clip at 5 min in from?
Another good episode. So comforting and so true.
I can not be the only one that hears a striking resemblance to Riker from TNG when this man speaks.
Nice-sounding voice and neat turns of phrase. I enjoyed this.
Whoever's doing this voice over, I applaud you.
Sebastian! Or "Frost". He's on livestreams every Saturday via Wishlist as well.
@@theescapist How do I become a "Frost"? I am also a voice over talent.
Yeah. There was a point in time where I was against modding games at all. Just didn’t seem right adding your own touches to someone else’s artwork.
Now it’s more like I’m against modding as a selling point. Like if the core of a game is really good, you don’t need to mess with it. Plus it just seems like a way for devs to let the fans do the work they should be doing to improve the game and not facing accountability
I don't know about fixing the errors of the developers, but I see modding as a good thing when (some) of the player base bring even further promise to a game what the developers had originally already given what they promised to.
You could tell he had a fun time writing this
I have a number of problems with this. Modders fixing games hasn't stopped people from complaining about broken games, and they can't make content which has been promised by devs, like Halo's forge mode, theatre mode, or ranked playlist (well they could, but it would be a huge task, and the devs already promised to make it).
The other problem is that Pokemon Scarlet running like shit hasn't stopped people from buying it en masse. I don't think anyone has ever bought a game thinking "it's fine, modders will fix it if it's broken!" They'll buy it if they think it looks good, and sometimes they'll even forgive the jank like they always have. Holding people to account is a nice idea, but in cases like this it doesn't seem to matter, and people will buy the next pokemon game when it comes out. They always do. Remember the huge outrage about CoD Black Ops III? Neither can I really, but I remember enough to say that, whatever people were complaining about, it wasn't enough to hurt sales.
Or how about Bethesda games in general? We've already given them pretty much a free pass on being buggy messes since Oblivion launched in 2006. It's a bit late to start complaining now.
I would also point out that publishers have already gotten away with pushing so many things on consumers that they never asked for, like regular microtransactions, loot boxes, NFTs (though they seem to have backed off of that for now) and now the 'live service' model, and we have never been able to stop it completely. I think part of the reason games are launching in a broken state these days is because of the huge increase in game size and the desire for publishers to earn profit exponentially. Something has to give, and it's never going to be profit.
Also, on the subject of artistic vision, you talk as though any game is made by one creative force - this is never the case. I'd argue that modification is merely a continued development of the game. That's more about interpretation though. I can certainly see why someone would think that about Ruby's Halo mods, as they fundamentally rebalance the game.
I love modding, but it definitely has some drawbacks that we don’t discuss enough. That messing with artistic vision argument. For example, I liked how grey and drab Skyrim was at release because it conveyed how bleak and difficult tundra life in Skyrim was. But it was the most modded thing about the game, so they changed it for the re-release. Now base Skyrim looks like a more generic rpg. There is definitely value to this collaborative style of game design, but personally, i think it’s not best for a single work of art to have it’s final version or sequels designed by committee. It’s the same feeling i got with the star wars sequels.
I'm surprised he doesn't mention Halo Infinite and the new forge.
First I've heard of this, what now?
@@CrimsonKage First you've heard about forge?
@@CrimsonKage I'm not sure I understand just how much background information is needed.
@@Dr0ctagonapus5 No I'm aware of Forge in general, but it sounds like this one is different from the previous ones? Or honestly, it sounded like someone modded Halo, given the context.
@@CrimsonKage The devs are allowing the players to fix Infinite for them by adding modes and maps that should already be there. 343 has yet to add infection to the game, but the players made a working version in less than a day once forge was released.
He's got a point. The fact that modders have to fix broken games released by the developer is a travesty.
If anything, modders should be using that time to make new experiences the game can have with some tweaking, not freely fix the bugs the game shipped with.
I think this is the strongest stance yet taken in a Cold Take and I agree wholeheartedly.
I wonder how the scales will tip with the Last of Us PC port. If it'll be abandoned by the devs after the most inconceivable incongruities have been ironed out, to be picked up and reinvigorated by the modders, or if they'll do their job for once and finish providing a port worthy of its story
Very well said
You are my second favorite escapist writer.
Any console player out there will tell you. Mod's don't cut it.
I don't know if I'm in the majority or not, but I don't mod anything. This might be because I've always plays on console, but even when the PS4 offers mod support I had no interest. So this concept is inherently flawed unless it's a PC-only release. Even then some might not even bother with mods.
I have made some modifications to games in the past. Mostly to better understand mechanics and gameplay functionality. Things like tweaking a stat to max or something impossible within game, then running around with the stick man. I speak of, specifically, Stoneshard, an early access game whose development team are currently fighting Russia.
In that game, you have five stats, if memory serves, strength, dexterity, perception, constitution and intelligence. Due to those earlier builds, only two stats were seen as dump stats, and two of them being supporters for said stats. Only constitution was to be ignored. See the game had limb based damaged, and your health fluctuates wildly and quickly. Three rounds of melee combat that went south and you probably be dead or close to it. Constitution gave you a single hit point, and raised the damage thresholds for your limbs by 1%. So, that got me tweaking with the game files to see at what point does constitution help any character, and that was roughly 50. You start at 10, and the level cap is 30. You would never reach it, so I started discussions about it, and that lead to the developers buffing constitution to be better. No body puts points into it any more, as the developers encrypted the game files, to make modifying them that much more difficult.
Your writing, these analogies, are killing me, hahah. "That's enough sour for this amaretto," haha, so good. That being said, you said it well, it's a symbiotic relationship, though that doesn't mean Johnny Triple-A can get away with unfinished games.
Here's the hardest thought. Triple A devs wouldn't create garbage for the community to fix if the community didn't buy garbage in the 1st place. This is ESPECIALLY true with the console scene, BUT it is STILL extremely prevalent in PC gaming as well with graphical restrictions. Gaming is unique as far as entertainment goes simple because this is the only medium whom seems to be willing to consistently deal with this kind of bulls***! Lol.