Yeah, but I think that also has to do with the location. It's easier to approve the saturated color palette when you are dealing with aliens and different planets.
Absolutely. In fact gun increased the amounts of colors in backgrounds and cloud formations and makeup with characters like gamora and nebula. It looked fine to me.
Deadpool and Wolverine just embraced fully saturated superhero costumes and it was a blast! I didn’t hear anyone complaining about Wolverine’s BRIGHT yellow & blue costume right next to Deadpool’s red & black.
Absolutely matter fact it looked so good and refreshing that at some points I had to take my phone out and take some pictures of the beautiful visuals What a movie
This is illuminating and makes a lot of sense. Personally I agree that even though the MCU is pretty dedicated to gritty realism, having slightly cartoony color palettes is still fine as long as it doesn't get TOO out of control. I think you can balance those two things well and The Avengers does a good job of it. It's certainly better than their solutions in Civil War and especially Age of Ultron. Holy cow, those tints look awful.
You got that totally wrong, Infact mcu is Far from gritty and realistic. It’s full of cgi and poorly designed. I always feel like I’m watching an expensive TV show.
You have completely transformed my understanding of colour theory. I always hear people say "do this, not that" and "remember this thing and this terminology" but I never understood *why*. Why it was the way it was. This is probably a life changing moment for me in my art journey. Thank you.
This was incredibly informative and I enjoyed it immensely. I also laughed so hard at the “exercise in pretentiousness” line that I had a flare up of bronchoconstriction and not breathing was absolutely worth it.
im glad someone covered this. Even as a child watching Capatian Amercia civil war, i was a typical kid who only cared about superheroes punching each other but even I noticed how gray the film was
Same. The heroes should stand out and pop against the environment. That’s part of the whole point. And having various popping color schemes on screen together really gives that feeling of a team up, a collaboration between otherwise different parts of the universe. I still think Avengers is the best looking MCU film besides maybe the first films for the big three (Iron Man, Cap, & Thor).
Most of the best MCU movies are the ones that lean into the campy silliness of the idea of superheros. The ones that worry less about realism and realize that we can still become emotionally invested in situations and characters that are not 100% realistic. And that all goes for the colors too. Let the heroes be distractingly bright
i would agree but having that constantly can also become boring. What I love more about this is the variety and different approach different people take on these scenarios. I love having some movies full on color and others feel more grounded. It makes each interesting to look at in their own way and makes them different from each other.
As someone who's taken 4 years of graphic design and is going into the visual arts fields for entertainment, I really enjoyed this video. It was so well put together and explained everything in a way that wasn't "lecturing" but more informative and fun!
Yes, and the point of no proper black levels and poor contrast is not addressed here. The big fight scene in Civil War would also look better if there was more contrast in the image. Instead it’s flat overall. He also never said that Marvel just forgot to color grade their films, but that they’ve chosen to take a video neutral and flat “cut and paste” grading aesthetic to most of their movies.
@@NickMichalakthe real answer to that is Marvel has poor pre production and cinematographers most likely have little involvement with these Movies constant reshoots or post production.
I feel like the real problem with 2012 Avengers wasn't the color but rather the lighting; the movie lacks a sense of depth of field, especially in the scenes on the helicarrier
Exactly, the MCU films have long lacked any solid lighting like superhero films used to have. I would personally blame it on the move to fix everything in post requiring flatter lighting for more flexible CG application but that's also just a theory
There’s a really good video explaining the cinematography differences between the 1st 2 avengers. The 1st movie played it safe which made it look like a tv show, including the aspect ratio. 2nd one was more stylized, moody and cinematic
Really cool video essay! My interpretation of Marvel going from saturated to muted to Endgame's sunset/rise has all to do with where our heroes/stories were at emotionally. First Avengers when it came out felt optimistic/romantic to the golden age of heroes. That's why it was more saturated in color. Civil War hit a moral grey area, which brought our colors to a neutral even playing field, to represent two opposing solutions to a problem. By Endgame, having the sunset/rise time of day was symbolic of the end of an era and the rise of a new one.
I'm 99.99% sure that it's just a money thing. Professional colour grading, like the kind filmmakers like Christopher Nolan, Zack Snyder, Quentin Tarantino, Denis Villeneuve and the like use isn't exactly cheap and it isn't exactly a quick process either. Marvel wants to get as many movies and shows out as quickly as possible and for as low a budget as they can get while keeping the visual effects up to standard, so they skip the colour grading part. They did something similar with the comics for a short amount of time, by skipping the inking part and going straight to colouring, until fans roasted the crap out of them (because it looked like garbage) and they had to revert it.
@@VisionsOfSpy Tbf, those filmmakers usually use real film, which is way easier to make look good in coloration. At the same time, Dennis shot digitally for BR2049, and that movie is beautiful.
I have been teaching color theory for years. I think this video is very helpful to show teens who might think color theory is boring. I like the idea of learning by breaking rules - it's call experimenting. In my opinion the best art is the kind that breaks the rules but it still "works". Good job!
I genuinely laughed at the end. The contrast between the calm explanation at the beginning and the embarrassed voice at the end was the cherry on top for an already great video.
This is the single best video on this topic. You deserve more views. Succinct, informative, and visually easy to follow along on all your points and examples.
The Russos explained in the Infinity War commentary that the intentionally dull some scenes so that others stand out. For example: the New York scene in Infinity War is dull so that places like Wakanda, Titan, Vormir, and Nidavellir seem more fantastical. Or how the airport scene is dull compared to the opening scene in or the scene at the end in Russia (two important action scenes with significantly less characters that have an equal if not more important impact of the plot). This can also be seen in some other Marvel films like Captain Marvel or Doctor Strange. I’m not saying what you’re saying is wrong, in fact I think you brought up some good points, but there is at least some reasoning to it.
From the looks of the comments, it seems like more people enjoy the vibrant costumes clashing than just losing all the colour. I agree. Avengers has some rewatchability for me because I can shift my focus onto the different characters during different scenes where they are in the same shot together to watch what they are doing on different rewatches a-lot more easily, and I feel like the focus can help be shifted with the lighting, environments or how a shot is framed.
Really enjoyed the discussion about color theory and better integrating the production design around the color scheme of the main character. Hadn't really put that together, and it was beautifully articulated here. However, I do have a few points: - The original Patrick H Willems video did NOT blame the look of the movies on the digital photography (he even cited "Skyfall" and "Mad Max: Fury Road" as examples of how good a movie shot on the Arri Alexa could look, and I'll add "Knives Out" as another); - I think you touched on an important point regarding the production design, but still missed the mark on the color grading front. To circle back to Willems's video, there are scenes (usually interiors or some night sequences) where the "Marvel look" works, but others, taking place in broad daylight, just look, for lack of a better word, extremely bland (Odin's death in "Thor: Ragnarok", to cite a common example). Not that they weren't color corrected, just that whatever correction was made didn't benefit these particular scenes. If we compare the final battle scenes of "Iron Man", "Iron Man 2" and "Iron Man 3", it's like putting two OLED displays alongside an LCD one: the blacks are slightly lifted, it has less contrast overall, and the colors don't have the same punch, even the skin tones; - And this one is more of a nitpick, but "Captain America: The First Avenger" was shot primarily on the Panavision Genesis (like "Superman Returns"), although the technical specs do list the Arri Alexa. See: britishcinematographer.co.uk/shelley-johnson-asc-captain-america/
Putting the whole intro in the description? Bold choice...Great video by the way. I love how you made the connection between how filmmakers choice of color in their film is analogous to a painter deciding on a color palette for their painting. Color in film is a natural progression of color in painting, but in motion.
another aspect I've heard mentioned is that the colors are so drab because Marvel does everything last minute and needs the slate as neutral as possible so they can change everything on the fly.
I’ve never really had any hate towards the airport scene’s color grading personally. To me, I always saw the desaturation in the moment symbolizing the fall of the Avengers. This is a really tragic moment for the MCU and the lack of life and saturation in the colors reflects how far these heroes have fallen. It amplifies the heartbreak in that scene a lot more to me. Not to mention how devastating the music sounds as well, it all comes together to create really tragic scene.
@@swarley6587 It could be an artistic choice, or a convenient way to avoid color issues. Either way, what they did works. At the beginning of the movie, the colors don’t feel watered down nearly as much as they do during the airport scene. They use color theory very well throughout the movie, but then comes the airport scene. Yes, desaturating the colors is a lazy way to avoid the clashing colors, but artistically it works and I actually enjoy the tone it provides for that fight. This is done even better with the color theory used after the airport scene. All of the environments the Avengers are in are very monotone and desaturated (The Raft, Siberia, etc.) The use of color around the characters is very limited overall, unlike the beginning of the movie in places like Lagos, for example. The subtle shift in tone, to me, symbolizes the before and after the Avengers breaking up.
And I wouldn’t say the airport scene is ugly really. It just looks washed out and I’m fine with that. It fits the tone and makes the scene feel a lot of serious and tragic than it would if the colors were more vibrant and dynamic.
@@DeplexerYT ok there's a way to give a movie a darker grittier look while also having it look nice. Desaturating it only makes the movie look ugly and visually boring. The bar needs to be higher for the mcu.
This is a problem for video games now too. It’s harder and harder to discern what to look at and everything just blurs for me. Bring back the saturation. Bring back the colour. Bring back the contrast.
Rare combination when I find a video explaining something I find interesting, and the voice explaining it is so pleasing to listen to! Thank you sir, liked and subbed
You make a good point where in an ensemble movie, majority of characters need to wear similar colours or different hues in order to create more colourful dynamic in the frame. Movies like Fury Road, Dune Part 2, and every Wes Anderson movie does this to great effect. BUT, there are other movies where ensemble characters wear different colours but the cinematography is still phenomenal. Movies like Baby Driver, Scott Pilgrim V The World, Glass Onion, Guardians of the Galaxy, Multiverse of Madness, Everything Everywhere All At Once, even Ms. Marvel (tv series) had the best colourfully dynamic shots and frames that weren't muddled with grey. So what I'm trying to say is, for a studio that's got hundreds of millions of dollars in resources, they do NOT have any excuses for grey muddle-covered movies and claim they want to make it 'realistic' this universe has humans interacting with Norse gods and a talking racoon y'all, NO EXCUSES!
The use of the flagpole scene in the B roll was freaking brilliant and I will be geeking over it for the next few days. I also think people who don’t like deep saturation being commonplace in comics are (to an extent) missing the point of honoring the source material. A comic film shouldn’t honor source material in terms of plot, but also in frame style and color schemes. At least more often than not.
Video is 2 1/2 years old now, but just found it from Reddit. Really well made and shows that General principles found for 'art' hundreds of years ago are still true.
I much prefer the camp look, it’s superheroes we don’t need it grounded in reality look at all the heroes we’ve got now! We’re in space, we’re in a sitcom, let’s be fun!
I don't think that the rules of color theory and perception just go away when you're talking about a different genre. The comparison to Renaissance paintings just demonstrates how everyone, from painters to filmmakers, is trying to make something that's readable and enjoyable.
@@abates17rules can always be bent in art. U can use "wrong/bad" color theory to ur advantage if it fits what emotion you're trying to convey. I can imagine color theory purposely being wonky in like, a comedy or something for dramatic effect for example. If someone wanted to make like a 80s super cheesy super hero movie that was meant to feel hokey, then I think bending some of those rules to make it feel and look more cartoon-y is a good thing, because it feeds the art
@@Gamesforus1 And yet comedies and other movies generally don't break these rules, because it can be visually exhausting to watch. You don't have to use unnatural colors or lack of contrast to make a movie "fun", and obviously Marvel doesn't want to make their movies look cheesy. Filmmakers will occasionally use '60s Technicolor color grading to evoke a certain time period, but even Technicolor films adhere to color grading rules.
@@abates17 there r always exceptions with art and the ones that generally get creative push the envelope. I think the big reason why a lot of big movies follow these rules is that they're commercial and corporate lol, they want to adhere to a wider audience so the artistry can get diluted if it's too "wild." And the thing is, you don't have to choose one or the other, specific scenes can be colored completely different from each other to show different locations, daytime/nighttime, etc. I mean a lot of the movies shown in this video even do that to fit the scenes lol. I think stuff is just way more flexible than people truly believe, it's mainly just about discipline and if it fits what the artist is trying to go for. Impact is key with everything.
@@Gamesforus1 If you were right, then you would be able to point to numerous movies that break these rules of color grading...but you can't. It has to do with portraying images that are pleasant to watch and understandable for the viewer; it has nothing to do with being "commercial and corporate". Marvel follows these rules, and so does David Lynch, and so does John Waters. They can push things like saturation a little bit (George Miller for example), but no, movies don't just break basic rules of visual storytelling to be "more artistic".
I think it was a stylistic choice by the Russo's to make their movie 'grittier' and 'less fantastic'. The problem is, it looked lifeless and disgustingly drab lol.
It depends. For me I kinda dig it. Every time I'm in New York and since they preserved the neutral natural look it makes me think "wow the Avengers are real and fought in this street and that." I will admit it's not the most beautiful thing in the planet, but it does kinda help connect the superheroes to reality
It's gritty when the directors aren't trying to spoon-feed you that it's gritty. Oh, the suits don't look good together. Who said they should. I personally think the 2012's Avengers had a perfect balance of realism and comic book. The brighter colors didn't take away from the story, and didn't ruin a single scene's aesthetics.
Thank you! What a great and informative video! I'm so glad someone else finally pointed out Age of Ultron's weird look--I thought I was the only one who was bugged by it!
This was an incredible well-made video that explained my complaint with Deadpool & Wolverine, and the other mcu movies! Everytime you explained the reason of why the color grading is like that I literally went “Ohhhhh, Ahhhhhh” Now I get it”. Lol
The problem with things being muted is that the contrast dies so theres no depth to the image. Also, you miss out on details in the costuming on close ups. Like, does anyone know that Hawkeye's suit in Civil War is a deep purple? I didn't for the first 5 years that movie was out, and just decided to turn the saturation up for that scene to see what it would be like, and I was shocked at how much more appealing it was, having the contrast/clash of all these costumes. Made their actions much more readable too. I'd personally rather have the issue of everything being slightly too colorful vying for my attention (like Spiderverse) than everything be desaturated and lacking depth while blending into the background/set. They basically end up having the same problem anyway, that's more a difficulty of having so many characters on screen than anything else, so might as well make it enjoyable to look at.
what I don't understand is how these saturated colors each character present work on the pages so well but are never considered on screen. Like, can't they take a color pallete from a comic book they're basing a movie from and adjust the set design so that they can apply said color pallete to the footage?
There is a difference though. Firstly Comic books are inherently unrealistic, so unrealistic colours mesh well. Slap those same colours onto live action footage however & it'll look dreadful. Secondly Comic Creators have complete control over the lighting, hue, saturation, contrast etc of each individual element within a panel. They are perfectly able to bend the rules on each of these to create the most impact. Whilst this is somewhat possible with live footage you're limited in 2 aspects. Firstly you can only adjust things so far, you have to work with the lighting of the original shot. Secondly Colour Grading can be incredibly time consuming. The amount of adjustments needed on a shot by shot or even frame by frame basis would simply be ridiculous. So I'd personally say it is largely a grading issue, it's just that Marvel would never allow the time & resources necessary to grade the footage in a truly ambitious way.
What I love more about this is the variety and different approach different people take on these scenarios. I love having some movies full on color and others feel more grounded. It makes each interesting to look at in their own way and makes them different from each other.
I’ve never heard anyone complain that the Avengers movies looked too cartoony, but I’m glad I’m not friends with them. Superheroes are supposed to be in bright colors. Deadpool and Wolverine proved that it looks good, and can be done. Stop desaturating everything or putting everyone in neutral clothing. If you can’t successfully use colors, that’s a skill issue.
I look forward to hearing your thoughts on how they manage Falcon and the Winter Soldier with their red and blue outfits in a few months, because this far it looks pretty good
I think one thing you were missing was that the Russo Bros made a gritty Spy Thriller with the Winter Soldier, so the greyish grading was very fitting. With Civil War, they were kind of trying to do the same, but it clashed with the many characters and that's why it was such a huge problem in that movie.
The bright colour pallet arguement is counteracted by literally looking across the pong to how they do it overseas, with tokusatsu as an example. Any shot from Kamen Rider, Ultraman, or even Super Sentai shows that you can have a bright colour palette without it being overly busy. If you put the design work in at pre-production to ensure the designs of each character are cohesive with eachother. This is very much an mcu and snyderverse problem where they want to be grounded, and not fully commit to the medium. It is an animated film, but you don’t have this same colour problem with the Spider-verse films, each character compliments eachother and have black/a dark colour that keeps them feeling cohesive with eachother while having vibrant colours/designs. Granted colour theory is a big aspect of this, and you hit those points well, but I would argue it isn’t solely on the colour palette alone that’s the issue.
Wow, now looking back at Avengers 1 I'm realizing that part of my issue with the look of the movie is the color oversaturation. The scene of them standing in a circle really points it out for me. It like makes green screens more obvious too
Great, very insightful video, but I don't think this fully explains the issue. You provide great reasons for desaturating the Avengers films, but the fact is that the solo films are usually desaturated to hell too. Why was Winter Soldier so desaturated? Why did Iron Man 3 lack contrast? Those were solo films, there was no reason they couldn't be built around the main hero's color-scheme again. Just compare those movies to something like Falcon and the Winter Soldier, and it becomes clear that they didn't have to look like that. Patrick's explanation that the MCU just "forgot" to color-grade many of its films seems silly at first - but when you consider the fact that the MCU has an insane release schedule, and usually leaves very little time for post-production in comparison to other franchises, his explanation seems pretty plausible. The shwarma scene in Avengers was shot AFTER THE MOVIE'S PREMIERE, don't forget. Marvel is always in a rush, because they're making so many films simultaneously. In those circumstances, it makes sense that the studio would just cut corners when it comes to post-production processes like color-grading. They almost have to. That's also the reason why their CGI sometimes looks bad, even though they have all the money in the world - no amount of money ever bought a second of time, as Tony said.
I believe the desaturated colors work for Winter Soldier because of its dire tone and story. It’s meant to invoke 70s political thrillers and espionage movies(which if you’ve seen those types of films you’d see how desaturated they are).
yeah this video felt like it was half thought out. he was focused on one answer to the problem and failed to even mention any other explanations. like what if there was also a creative aspect to the desaturation, or it was just a mistake.
This whole video demonstares why i think superheroes are sometimes best in animation. It can work as Spider-Man 1 and Avengers 1 showed but i do think to get the full effect superheroes need to be in animation, like X-Men '97
Don't forget to mention the lack of contrast and proper black value mentioned in Patrick's video which is also his major point besides desaturated colors that make these movies look boring. Also he didn't actually conclude that it was because it was shot digitally when he pointed out other movies shot with the same camera that don't suffer the same issue.
I think this video explains why desaturated colors is an intentional choice, not just "Marvel's mandated color settings." And he did spend a lot of time talking about the camera.
@@abates17 Willems did talk about the camera and digital photography, but he also says that the same type of camera (the Arri Alexa) was also used in Pacific Rim, and that movie has proper contrast, black values and saturation. So he wasn't blaming the camera or the fact that it was digitally shot, just that the "Marvel pattern" for color grading was doing a disservice to their movies (and, by extension, to the camera, too).
8:51 The topic isn't "completely subjective." What someone personally likes is subjective, but whether or not something makes a positive impact on the majority of it's viewers is objective. And, "how," is a valid topic for a lesson. This video should be shown in classes teaching color theory.
They should have stayed with the vibrant conflicting colors for the superhero designs. The whole point of The Avengers was to put all of these main characters in the same setting and have them stand as equal partners. In addition, the diverse colors really helped in distinguishing the heroes and creating different personas for each one of them
I love how any Hollywood scene in Africa is orange as if Africa in real life had an orange filter. Same thing for mexico it's like he producers go, Africa/Mexico ? SLAP ME SUM GOOD ORANGE ON THIS BAD BOY.
Kindergarten was right. Primary colors on printed surfaces (pigments) are red, yellow and blue only. However, it is later on that we learn that primarily colors for light are green, red, and blue. (Additive v.s. Subtractive color) They mix different also.
The thing is, you can have a desaturated movie without looking drab. The low contrast is another issue here. You can have muted colors with solid, strong contrast, but it all looks so flat because the black levels are gray and the highlights are blah. That airport battle is just ugly to look at. It’s shot during a time of day where it’s all flat sunlight, and no dynamic light. If they had shot that during sundown, they would’ve had a far richer look to the visuals and how the light struck everyone. Even a nighttime scene would’ve given the filmmakers some controlled or stylized lighting to work with. They literally chose the flattest, more boring visual look imaginable.
I think the guardians movies (especially the second one) demonstrate that a bright cartoony colour pallete can really work
Thor Ragnarok as well
Oh I hated it. Respect playing with color, but it was waaaay too much. Guardians 3 finally is when Gunn finally got his with color theory.
Yeah, but I think that also has to do with the location. It's easier to approve the saturated color palette when you are dealing with aliens and different planets.
Absolutely. In fact gun increased the amounts of colors in backgrounds and cloud formations and makeup with characters like gamora and nebula. It looked fine to me.
That's still my biggest gripe with the movies. The colors just don't work for me. Specifically, with Gamora. It's very harsh there.
Deadpool and Wolverine just embraced fully saturated superhero costumes and it was a blast! I didn’t hear anyone complaining about Wolverine’s BRIGHT yellow & blue costume right next to Deadpool’s red & black.
Absolutely matter fact it looked so good and refreshing that at some points I had to take my phone out and take some pictures of the beautiful visuals
What a movie
i thought it looked pretty ugly
@@code3797 you’re right, concrete grey is so much better
@@GeahkBurchill are u being sarcastic?
@@cerealwithwarmmilk obv.
This is illuminating and makes a lot of sense. Personally I agree that even though the MCU is pretty dedicated to gritty realism, having slightly cartoony color palettes is still fine as long as it doesn't get TOO out of control. I think you can balance those two things well and The Avengers does a good job of it. It's certainly better than their solutions in Civil War and especially Age of Ultron. Holy cow, those tints look awful.
pro trick: watch movies on flixzone. Been using them for watching lots of of movies these days.
@Isaias Joe definitely, have been using Flixzone} for years myself :D
Age of ultron had good color grading
You got that totally wrong, Infact mcu is Far from gritty and realistic. It’s full of cgi and poorly designed. I always feel like I’m watching an expensive TV show.
MCU.....gritty? Does not compute
You have completely transformed my understanding of colour theory. I always hear people say "do this, not that" and "remember this thing and this terminology" but I never understood *why*. Why it was the way it was. This is probably a life changing moment for me in my art journey. Thank you.
This was incredibly informative and I enjoyed it immensely. I also laughed so hard at the “exercise in pretentiousness” line that I had a flare up of bronchoconstriction and not breathing was absolutely worth it.
that was an instant subscribe moment for me, i paused to click the like and subscribe button
im glad someone covered this. Even as a child watching Capatian Amercia civil war, i was a typical kid who only cared about superheroes punching each other but even I noticed how gray the film was
You just made so many people go “fuck I’m old now”
u just have adhd
capatian amercia is my favourite meciu character
suits that movie in particular, though. Being a spy thriller and all
@@yamagamikensei2232 Meciu: marvel extended cinematic innovative universe
"one of the most common complaints is that it looked cartoony"
These are superheroes! They should look a tad cartoony damnit!
i absolutely love the campier end result from 2012. clash the colors, cowards
Agreed. Embrace the source material.
Same. The heroes should stand out and pop against the environment. That’s part of the whole point. And having various popping color schemes on screen together really gives that feeling of a team up, a collaboration between otherwise different parts of the universe. I still think Avengers is the best looking MCU film besides maybe the first films for the big three (Iron Man, Cap, & Thor).
Most of the best MCU movies are the ones that lean into the campy silliness of the idea of superheros. The ones that worry less about realism and realize that we can still become emotionally invested in situations and characters that are not 100% realistic. And that all goes for the colors too. Let the heroes be distractingly bright
Hello from the future. Deadpool and Wolverine did it. They brought bright colors together. It is glorious.
i would agree but having that constantly can also become boring. What I love more about this is the variety and different approach different people take on these scenarios. I love having some movies full on color and others feel more grounded. It makes each interesting to look at in their own way and makes them different from each other.
As someone who's taken 4 years of graphic design and is going into the visual arts fields for entertainment, I really enjoyed this video. It was so well put together and explained everything in a way that wasn't "lecturing" but more informative and fun!
As someone who just adores colour theory in every medium ever, this was a very satisfying watch.
AFAIK, he did not say Marvel forgot to color grade their films, just that they stick with the same grading all the time for some reason.
Yes, and the point of no proper black levels and poor contrast is not addressed here. The big fight scene in Civil War would also look better if there was more contrast in the image. Instead it’s flat overall. He also never said that Marvel just forgot to color grade their films, but that they’ve chosen to take a video neutral and flat “cut and paste” grading aesthetic to most of their movies.
@@NickMichalakthe real answer to that is Marvel has poor pre production and cinematographers most likely have little involvement with these Movies constant reshoots or post production.
I feel like the real problem with 2012 Avengers wasn't the color but rather the lighting; the movie lacks a sense of depth of field, especially in the scenes on the helicarrier
Exactly, the MCU films have long lacked any solid lighting like superhero films used to have. I would personally blame it on the move to fix everything in post requiring flatter lighting for more flexible CG application but that's also just a theory
There’s a really good video explaining the cinematography differences between the 1st 2 avengers. The 1st movie played it safe which made it look like a tv show, including the aspect ratio. 2nd one was more stylized, moody and cinematic
Wow you must be a professional making lots of money in Hollywood and media
Joss Whedon was used to that tv show lighting where it was less contrast and the lighting was flat.
Really cool video essay! My interpretation of Marvel going from saturated to muted to Endgame's sunset/rise has all to do with where our heroes/stories were at emotionally. First Avengers when it came out felt optimistic/romantic to the golden age of heroes. That's why it was more saturated in color. Civil War hit a moral grey area, which brought our colors to a neutral even playing field, to represent two opposing solutions to a problem. By Endgame, having the sunset/rise time of day was symbolic of the end of an era and the rise of a new one.
Really cool perspective!
I'm 99.99% sure that it's just a money thing. Professional colour grading, like the kind filmmakers like Christopher Nolan, Zack Snyder, Quentin Tarantino, Denis Villeneuve and the like use isn't exactly cheap and it isn't exactly a quick process either. Marvel wants to get as many movies and shows out as quickly as possible and for as low a budget as they can get while keeping the visual effects up to standard, so they skip the colour grading part. They did something similar with the comics for a short amount of time, by skipping the inking part and going straight to colouring, until fans roasted the crap out of them (because it looked like garbage) and they had to revert it.
@@VisionsOfSpy Tbf, those filmmakers usually use real film, which is way easier to make look good in coloration.
At the same time, Dennis shot digitally for BR2049, and that movie is beautiful.
I have been teaching color theory for years. I think this video is very helpful to show teens who might think color theory is boring. I like the idea of learning by breaking rules - it's call experimenting. In my opinion the best art is the kind that breaks the rules but it still "works". Good job!
I genuinely laughed at the end. The contrast between the calm explanation at the beginning and the embarrassed voice at the end was the cherry on top for an already great video.
This is the single best video on this topic. You deserve more views. Succinct, informative, and visually easy to follow along on all your points and examples.
The Russos explained in the Infinity War commentary that the intentionally dull some scenes so that others stand out. For example: the New York scene in Infinity War is dull so that places like Wakanda, Titan, Vormir, and Nidavellir seem more fantastical. Or how the airport scene is dull compared to the opening scene in or the scene at the end in Russia (two important action scenes with significantly less characters that have an equal if not more important impact of the plot). This can also be seen in some other Marvel films like Captain Marvel or Doctor Strange.
I’m not saying what you’re saying is wrong, in fact I think you brought up some good points, but there is at least some reasoning to it.
Doctor Strange actually has a lot of vibrant scenes.
Same goes for Thor: Ragnarok.
From the looks of the comments, it seems like more people enjoy the vibrant costumes clashing than just losing all the colour. I agree. Avengers has some rewatchability for me because I can shift my focus onto the different characters during different scenes where they are in the same shot together to watch what they are doing on different rewatches a-lot more easily, and I feel like the focus can help be shifted with the lighting, environments or how a shot is framed.
This video is not only incredibly fascinating, but also just really well-made! I really love how you visually display the color palettes of each movie
Really enjoyed the discussion about color theory and better integrating the production design around the color scheme of the main character. Hadn't really put that together, and it was beautifully articulated here.
However, I do have a few points:
- The original Patrick H Willems video did NOT blame the look of the movies on the digital photography (he even cited "Skyfall" and "Mad Max: Fury Road" as examples of how good a movie shot on the Arri Alexa could look, and I'll add "Knives Out" as another);
- I think you touched on an important point regarding the production design, but still missed the mark on the color grading front. To circle back to Willems's video, there are scenes (usually interiors or some night sequences) where the "Marvel look" works, but others, taking place in broad daylight, just look, for lack of a better word, extremely bland (Odin's death in "Thor: Ragnarok", to cite a common example). Not that they weren't color corrected, just that whatever correction was made didn't benefit these particular scenes.
If we compare the final battle scenes of "Iron Man", "Iron Man 2" and "Iron Man 3", it's like putting two OLED displays alongside an LCD one: the blacks are slightly lifted, it has less contrast overall, and the colors don't have the same punch, even the skin tones;
- And this one is more of a nitpick, but "Captain America: The First Avenger" was shot primarily on the Panavision Genesis (like "Superman Returns"), although the technical specs do list the Arri Alexa. See: britishcinematographer.co.uk/shelley-johnson-asc-captain-america/
Putting the whole intro in the description? Bold choice...Great video by the way. I love how you made the connection between how filmmakers choice of color in their film is analogous to a painter deciding on a color palette for their painting. Color in film is a natural progression of color in painting, but in motion.
another aspect I've heard mentioned is that the colors are so drab because Marvel does everything last minute and needs the slate as neutral as possible so they can change everything on the fly.
yeah, no
@@3n3j0t4no, yeah
I’ve never really had any hate towards the airport scene’s color grading personally. To me, I always saw the desaturation in the moment symbolizing the fall of the Avengers. This is a really tragic moment for the MCU and the lack of life and saturation in the colors reflects how far these heroes have fallen. It amplifies the heartbreak in that scene a lot more to me.
Not to mention how devastating the music sounds as well, it all comes together to create really tragic scene.
yeah same i liked the desaturation it made more sense for the plot
this is a wild excuse for bad filmmaking. a movie shouldn't be visually ugly to symbolize the avengers falling apart
@@swarley6587 It could be an artistic choice, or a convenient way to avoid color issues. Either way, what they did works. At the beginning of the movie, the colors don’t feel watered down nearly as much as they do during the airport scene. They use color theory very well throughout the movie, but then comes the airport scene. Yes, desaturating the colors is a lazy way to avoid the clashing colors, but artistically it works and I actually enjoy the tone it provides for that fight.
This is done even better with the color theory used after the airport scene. All of the environments the Avengers are in are very monotone and desaturated (The Raft, Siberia, etc.) The use of color around the characters is very limited overall, unlike the beginning of the movie in places like Lagos, for example. The subtle shift in tone, to me, symbolizes the before and after the Avengers breaking up.
And I wouldn’t say the airport scene is ugly really. It just looks washed out and I’m fine with that. It fits the tone and makes the scene feel a lot of serious and tragic than it would if the colors were more vibrant and dynamic.
@@DeplexerYT ok there's a way to give a movie a darker grittier look while also having it look nice. Desaturating it only makes the movie look ugly and visually boring. The bar needs to be higher for the mcu.
This is a problem for video games now too. It’s harder and harder to discern what to look at and everything just blurs for me. Bring back the saturation. Bring back the colour. Bring back the contrast.
brown games were a lot more of an issue in the early 2010s.
Games with low saturation were always there dude, mario is not the only old game
what are you talking about? Videogames now all look too colorful without almost any attempt to color grade them in some artistic way
In the 2010s there was the piss filter, nowadays most AAA games look overly satured
ur issue is TAA and Unreal Engine not color grading
Rare combination when I find a video explaining something I find interesting, and the voice explaining it is so pleasing to listen to! Thank you sir, liked and subbed
Found your post on reddit. This is a really well made and well substantiated observation. Bravo! Sharing it with filmmaking buddies and subbed
You make a good point where in an ensemble movie, majority of characters need to wear similar colours or different hues in order to create more colourful dynamic in the frame. Movies like Fury Road, Dune Part 2, and every Wes Anderson movie does this to great effect. BUT, there are other movies where ensemble characters wear different colours but the cinematography is still phenomenal. Movies like Baby Driver, Scott Pilgrim V The World, Glass Onion, Guardians of the Galaxy, Multiverse of Madness, Everything Everywhere All At Once, even Ms. Marvel (tv series) had the best colourfully dynamic shots and frames that weren't muddled with grey.
So what I'm trying to say is, for a studio that's got hundreds of millions of dollars in resources, they do NOT have any excuses for grey muddle-covered movies and claim they want to make it 'realistic' this universe has humans interacting with Norse gods and a talking racoon y'all, NO EXCUSES!
The use of the flagpole scene in the B roll was freaking brilliant and I will be geeking over it for the next few days. I also think people who don’t like deep saturation being commonplace in comics are (to an extent) missing the point of honoring the source material. A comic film shouldn’t honor source material in terms of plot, but also in frame style and color schemes. At least more often than not.
Love this analysis so much - and couldn't agree with your point about superheroes looking more 'fitting' in campy, high-vibrance tones. Great work!
Video is 2 1/2 years old now, but just found it from Reddit. Really well made and shows that General principles found for 'art' hundreds of years ago are still true.
Very, very nice breakdown of the unchanging problem of making contrasting colors look good in the same scene, and the various solutions the MCU used!
I much prefer the camp look, it’s superheroes we don’t need it grounded in reality look at all the heroes we’ve got now! We’re in space, we’re in a sitcom, let’s be fun!
I don't think that the rules of color theory and perception just go away when you're talking about a different genre. The comparison to Renaissance paintings just demonstrates how everyone, from painters to filmmakers, is trying to make something that's readable and enjoyable.
@@abates17rules can always be bent in art. U can use "wrong/bad" color theory to ur advantage if it fits what emotion you're trying to convey. I can imagine color theory purposely being wonky in like, a comedy or something for dramatic effect for example. If someone wanted to make like a 80s super cheesy super hero movie that was meant to feel hokey, then I think bending some of those rules to make it feel and look more cartoon-y is a good thing, because it feeds the art
@@Gamesforus1 And yet comedies and other movies generally don't break these rules, because it can be visually exhausting to watch. You don't have to use unnatural colors or lack of contrast to make a movie "fun", and obviously Marvel doesn't want to make their movies look cheesy. Filmmakers will occasionally use '60s Technicolor color grading to evoke a certain time period, but even Technicolor films adhere to color grading rules.
@@abates17 there r always exceptions with art and the ones that generally get creative push the envelope. I think the big reason why a lot of big movies follow these rules is that they're commercial and corporate lol, they want to adhere to a wider audience so the artistry can get diluted if it's too "wild." And the thing is, you don't have to choose one or the other, specific scenes can be colored completely different from each other to show different locations, daytime/nighttime, etc. I mean a lot of the movies shown in this video even do that to fit the scenes lol. I think stuff is just way more flexible than people truly believe, it's mainly just about discipline and if it fits what the artist is trying to go for. Impact is key with everything.
@@Gamesforus1 If you were right, then you would be able to point to numerous movies that break these rules of color grading...but you can't. It has to do with portraying images that are pleasant to watch and understandable for the viewer; it has nothing to do with being "commercial and corporate". Marvel follows these rules, and so does David Lynch, and so does John Waters. They can push things like saturation a little bit (George Miller for example), but no, movies don't just break basic rules of visual storytelling to be "more artistic".
Brilliantly informative and entertaining video. This deserves just as many views as Patrick's video
I think it was a stylistic choice by the Russo's to make their movie 'grittier' and 'less fantastic'. The problem is, it looked lifeless and disgustingly drab lol.
It depends. For me I kinda dig it. Every time I'm in New York and since they preserved the neutral natural look it makes me think "wow the Avengers are real and fought in this street and that." I will admit it's not the most beautiful thing in the planet, but it does kinda help connect the superheroes to reality
It's gritty when the directors aren't trying to spoon-feed you that it's gritty. Oh, the suits don't look good together. Who said they should. I personally think the 2012's Avengers had a perfect balance of realism and comic book. The brighter colors didn't take away from the story, and didn't ruin a single scene's aesthetics.
Thank you! What a great and informative video! I'm so glad someone else finally pointed out Age of Ultron's weird look--I thought I was the only one who was bugged by it!
I was studying just having some random videos in the back but with your essay I stopped writing and focused entirely on you because it was that good!
This video deserved a couple million views, enjoyed it a lot. Ironically, I think the thumbnail could be better. Cutting the text would be one move.
Thor ragnarok (however you spell it) has a wild color scheme, do you think you could film a tiktok explaining why It works so well?
You got it spelled right, mate🤘
I'm not sure about this but his recent video on guardians of the galaxy might apply to ragnorok as well, you should check it out!
I (personally) think that ragnarok has the same gray/bland issue it's just that they added much more explosive colors on set
Ragnarok looks grey as hell in comparison to Thor 1.
Thor Ragnarok is still moderately desaturated in most scenes. Just like the other movies.
This was an incredible well-made video that explained my complaint with Deadpool & Wolverine, and the other mcu movies! Everytime you explained the reason of why the color grading is like that I literally went “Ohhhhh, Ahhhhhh” Now I get it”. Lol
Solid arguments and color theory, to boot. Nicely done!
1:25 cosmo and wanda?
The problem with things being muted is that the contrast dies so theres no depth to the image. Also, you miss out on details in the costuming on close ups. Like, does anyone know that Hawkeye's suit in Civil War is a deep purple? I didn't for the first 5 years that movie was out, and just decided to turn the saturation up for that scene to see what it would be like, and I was shocked at how much more appealing it was, having the contrast/clash of all these costumes. Made their actions much more readable too.
I'd personally rather have the issue of everything being slightly too colorful vying for my attention (like Spiderverse) than everything be desaturated and lacking depth while blending into the background/set. They basically end up having the same problem anyway, that's more a difficulty of having so many characters on screen than anything else, so might as well make it enjoyable to look at.
How does this video only have 13k views. Really well made and really interesting topic. Definitely worth my subscription keep it up.
Wonderful Video covering a topic thats one of a complicated one ,good job!
I liked the Avengers colors better than the Endgame sunset, but thank God we're at least not doing the whole DCEU thing with the lighting.
He didn't say the movies looked bad because they were digital, he mentioned the black levels being grey
hey man, love watching you on tiktok and just watched this in my film as art class. very well done!
Excellent analysis, I learned alot as a film maker so thankyou!
what I don't understand is how these saturated colors each character present work on the pages so well but are never considered on screen. Like, can't they take a color pallete from a comic book they're basing a movie from and adjust the set design so that they can apply said color pallete to the footage?
There is a difference though. Firstly Comic books are inherently unrealistic, so unrealistic colours mesh well. Slap those same colours onto live action footage however & it'll look dreadful.
Secondly Comic Creators have complete control over the lighting, hue, saturation, contrast etc of each individual element within a panel. They are perfectly able to bend the rules on each of these to create the most impact.
Whilst this is somewhat possible with live footage you're limited in 2 aspects. Firstly you can only adjust things so far, you have to work with the lighting of the original shot.
Secondly Colour Grading can be incredibly time consuming. The amount of adjustments needed on a shot by shot or even frame by frame basis would simply be ridiculous.
So I'd personally say it is largely a grading issue, it's just that Marvel would never allow the time & resources necessary to grade the footage in a truly ambitious way.
@@MsMarco6 Nice explanation, thanks!!
I wish I had a list of all the art in this video. It’s all so beautiful. Lisa Frank included.
The non-ending should be your thing, it's super funny😝
What I love more about this is the variety and different approach different people take on these scenarios. I love having some movies full on color and others feel more grounded. It makes each interesting to look at in their own way and makes them different from each other.
this really popped into everyone's fyp bc of Deadpool and Wolverine, huh?
(still a great video, deserves more views)
Fantastic video
I’ve never heard anyone complain that the Avengers movies looked too cartoony, but I’m glad I’m not friends with them. Superheroes are supposed to be in bright colors. Deadpool and Wolverine proved that it looks good, and can be done. Stop desaturating everything or putting everyone in neutral clothing. If you can’t successfully use colors, that’s a skill issue.
This video deserves more views
This is a crazy thing I only kinda thought about and now I know, amazing work man!
Oh no, Loki's green is going to clash with everyone else's colors...that totally can't be symbolic or something...
Was the “except for Black Widow” really necessary 😅😂
Ooooohh this makes so much sense. Great video! Thank you!
I look forward to hearing your thoughts on how they manage Falcon and the Winter Soldier with their red and blue outfits in a few months, because this far it looks pretty good
Been following you on tiktok and I’m real glad I found your TH-cam channel!
i am sorry, but why is it a problem if the comic book movie looks like a cartoon.
Man this really helped identify what happened between each of the films and how the looks of the films evolved
I think one thing you were missing was that the Russo Bros made a gritty Spy Thriller with the Winter Soldier, so the greyish grading was very fitting. With Civil War, they were kind of trying to do the same, but it clashed with the many characters and that's why it was such a huge problem in that movie.
The MCU has been given the DolbyVsion HDR treatment. If you view them on say an LG OLED that supports this processing, they are absolutely stunning.
The bright colour pallet arguement is counteracted by literally looking across the pong to how they do it overseas, with tokusatsu as an example. Any shot from Kamen Rider, Ultraman, or even Super Sentai shows that you can have a bright colour palette without it being overly busy. If you put the design work in at pre-production to ensure the designs of each character are cohesive with eachother. This is very much an mcu and snyderverse problem where they want to be grounded, and not fully commit to the medium. It is an animated film, but you don’t have this same colour problem with the Spider-verse films, each character compliments eachother and have black/a dark colour that keeps them feeling cohesive with eachother while having vibrant colours/designs. Granted colour theory is a big aspect of this, and you hit those points well, but I would argue it isn’t solely on the colour palette alone that’s the issue.
Earned my sub, great vid
The airport scene looks so much better with the saturation restored
Check out the party scene in age of ultron it’s more colorful and gorgeous than the avengers headquarters in endgame
cool vid mate
Criticizing The Avengers for looking cartoony is truly hilarious
Wow, now looking back at Avengers 1 I'm realizing that part of my issue with the look of the movie is the color oversaturation. The scene of them standing in a circle really points it out for me. It like makes green screens more obvious too
"Ant-Man is even there twice."
Oh my god. Great. Can't unsee that. 😅
I wonder if this also relates to the reason Optimus Prime HAD to have the red flames in bayformers films.
I always thought Avengers 2012 looked like a TV show
Great video mate!
this is why im proud of deadpool and wolverine for not being washed in a blue tint or completely beige
Great, very insightful video, but I don't think this fully explains the issue. You provide great reasons for desaturating the Avengers films, but the fact is that the solo films are usually desaturated to hell too. Why was Winter Soldier so desaturated? Why did Iron Man 3 lack contrast? Those were solo films, there was no reason they couldn't be built around the main hero's color-scheme again. Just compare those movies to something like Falcon and the Winter Soldier, and it becomes clear that they didn't have to look like that.
Patrick's explanation that the MCU just "forgot" to color-grade many of its films seems silly at first - but when you consider the fact that the MCU has an insane release schedule, and usually leaves very little time for post-production in comparison to other franchises, his explanation seems pretty plausible. The shwarma scene in Avengers was shot AFTER THE MOVIE'S PREMIERE, don't forget. Marvel is always in a rush, because they're making so many films simultaneously. In those circumstances, it makes sense that the studio would just cut corners when it comes to post-production processes like color-grading. They almost have to.
That's also the reason why their CGI sometimes looks bad, even though they have all the money in the world - no amount of money ever bought a second of time, as Tony said.
I believe the desaturated colors work for Winter Soldier because of its dire tone and story. It’s meant to invoke 70s political thrillers and espionage movies(which if you’ve seen those types of films you’d see how desaturated they are).
yeah this video felt like it was half thought out. he was focused on one answer to the problem and failed to even mention any other explanations. like what if there was also a creative aspect to the desaturation, or it was just a mistake.
I feel like deadpool and wolverine saturation was so high but it was cool seeing them like that straight off a comic book page
great video dude
This whole video demonstares why i think superheroes are sometimes best in animation. It can work as Spider-Man 1 and Avengers 1 showed but i do think to get the full effect superheroes need to be in animation, like X-Men '97
solid takes from beginning to end.
Don't forget to mention the lack of contrast and proper black value mentioned in Patrick's video which is also his major point besides desaturated colors that make these movies look boring. Also he didn't actually conclude that it was because it was shot digitally when he pointed out other movies shot with the same camera that don't suffer the same issue.
Fantastic video. Well done and well explained.
I ate my breakfast to this video and I thought it was very interesting. 10/10
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Williams's video say that it wasn't the camera, but Marvel's mandated color settings.
I think this video explains why desaturated colors is an intentional choice, not just "Marvel's mandated color settings." And he did spend a lot of time talking about the camera.
@@abates17 Willems did talk about the camera and digital photography, but he also says that the same type of camera (the Arri Alexa) was also used in Pacific Rim, and that movie has proper contrast, black values and saturation.
So he wasn't blaming the camera or the fact that it was digitally shot, just that the "Marvel pattern" for color grading was doing a disservice to their movies (and, by extension, to the camera, too).
8:51 The topic isn't "completely subjective." What someone personally likes is subjective, but whether or not something makes a positive impact on the majority of it's viewers is objective. And, "how," is a valid topic for a lesson. This video should be shown in classes teaching color theory.
contrast is something you want in color. red and blue look good together at full saturation
They should have stayed with the vibrant conflicting colors for the superhero designs. The whole point of The Avengers was to put all of these main characters in the same setting and have them stand as equal partners. In addition, the diverse colors really helped in distinguishing the heroes and creating different personas for each one of them
And with Deadpool & Wolverine we're right back to where we started - gray. Thanks Marvel!
visuals were top tier tho, I can't wait til it comes out on disney plus
Good one, dude ❤
What an excellent way of explaining how and WHY they did this! Great ending too ;) haha
In my opinion GotG had the best coloring system. Everything was so bright and lively yet they were still able to depict dark moments.
I love how any Hollywood scene in Africa is orange as if Africa in real life had an orange filter. Same thing for mexico it's like he producers go, Africa/Mexico ? SLAP ME SUM GOOD ORANGE ON THIS BAD BOY.
I really liked the slighty grey look of Civil War. Grounded the movie in reality and it didn't look like a theme park ride.
This video deserves more than the 122k views that it has
Kindergarten was right. Primary colors on printed surfaces (pigments) are red, yellow and blue only. However, it is later on that we learn that primarily colors for light are green, red, and blue. (Additive v.s. Subtractive color) They mix different also.
The thing is, you can have a desaturated movie without looking drab. The low contrast is another issue here. You can have muted colors with solid, strong contrast, but it all looks so flat because the black levels are gray and the highlights are blah. That airport battle is just ugly to look at. It’s shot during a time of day where it’s all flat sunlight, and no dynamic light. If they had shot that during sundown, they would’ve had a far richer look to the visuals and how the light struck everyone. Even a nighttime scene would’ve given the filmmakers some controlled or stylized lighting to work with. They literally chose the flattest, more boring visual look imaginable.
Very interesting, thank you.