It's funny, I remember some reddit forums back in 2015 that WANTED that. I feel like if there was more character crossover within Phase 4 (Wong was great), the phase could have functioned better as the gap phase they wanted
I've never missed an MCU movie in my life... but then suddenly during Phase 4 I missed several. It was getting hard to keep up with shows and movies all while Disney was trying to sell me their product over and over and over again.
Think of them like the comicbooks they bring to the screen. It is unrealistic to try to collect every single edition of a comic series unless you are extremely dedicated, have lots of money to spare, and are a hardcore fan. We're now at the point where you just grab the edition you think "oh that looks interesting, let's see," and leave it at that.
@@noseriouslyimserious4073 facts though. Thor, Dr strange, and a lot of these shows have woke crap and i hate it. I want to watch a show or movie to not think about the world you know?
Stop overreacting lol. This is literally phase 1 with some Multiversal BS we know fxck about! Maybe it's a thing when you want to introduce and building up to Multiversal War by plotting every movie with its variance and stories for each. The downside is, yeah it's right, I feel they rush it too much. Secret Wars confirmed to be released in 3 years time like the hell? Excited for what's to come for them but it won't surprise me if they fail to fill in Infinity War's shoes.
To be fair, the story did end. The problem here is that they then didn't make a new one. We basically traded a longform story for an anthology book and, when the short stories in the anthology book are this hit or miss, it's just not worth investing the energy into it as an audience member.
The MCU was propped up by the crazy chemistry and charisma of Robert Downey Jr, Chris Evans, Chris Hemsworth, Scarlett Johansen and Mark Ruffalo. The new group don't mix well
Definitely not Scarlett. Nothing more then eye candy since black widow was by far the least powerful member....Idc about the comic lore that idk about...just the movies....widow literally added 0 moments or care for me. Sorry if I'm lacking a heart for anyone reading.
@@Maradala Hoenstly I kind of agree, I was mainly there for Ironman and Capt America, Thor (the character) was good, Hulk was good but less than thor and yea, that's all I really cared about. Nick Fury was also kind of interesting tbh, I will exclude SI, that is fanfic to my eyes (never watched it and never will)
My two biggest gripes are: -Shoving jokes in every other line. Everyone tried to have the same snarky sense of humor as Joss Whedon, it's played out -They keep trying to end the world and it's lowered the stakes. Eternals, Moon Knight, Ms Marvel... no, they're not gonna end the world in a D+ show, or in the movie right after Endgame. Come on.
Also Loki singlehandedly destroyed every movie and TV show in the MCU that came before it with it's "we maintain the sacred timeline" bullshit, because that one thing invalidates EVERYTHING that's happened up until now. Every single victory, defeat, sacrifice, hard choice and effort that all the characters have done was just some dude in his ivory tower deciding how things would go. Way to kill your entire cinematic universe's re-watchability in one fell swoop.
@@carljohan9265 Speak for yourself lmao. I can easily enjoy rewatching classics like Iron Man 1. Just like how I can enjoy rewatching the original Star Wars Trilogy or Pre-Timeless Child Retcon Doctor Who.
Marvel is dragging out anything.. they have 80+ years worth of content to work with. They only issue they have it they're worried more about quantity over quality now
I was devastated when I found there wasn’t gonna be a third season, but I agree. I wouldn’t want it to get so drawn out to the point where it’s more confusing and there’s too much going on
I’ve always felt that Marvel Studios should’ve taken a long break after Endgame to just bask in what a massive accomplishment that was but also to really sit down and meticulously plan their next steps. I’ve found recent Marvel stuff to be entertaining but not having that sense of cohesion that the Infinity Saga had. Directionless fun is entertaining but directionless nonetheless. Also the amount of TV shows has hurt them in my eyes. I feel that WandaVision and Loki were bangers but everything else after that has been dull fun. This was a really solid video 🔥🔥🔥
exactly. and every now and then you find out there is another series or movie that fits into the story that came out and you missed it because of sheer volume of all the stuff
Yes! Back when it was just 2-3 movies a year, there was enough space between each new release to give us a bit of a break and build anticipation for the next movie. This year there's been something new almost every month (I think, I haven't been keeping track).
Yes I agree, I’ll probably give some things a try but I most likely won’t finish every show or watch every movie unless I’m insanely bored and even then I’m discovering more movies than ever before that are much better
@@ExeErdna Just like everything Disney owns right now... I don't think any of them even know what their higher stakes are right now. It is just filler just to make money.
@@justice_productions_ smaller stories like the Eternals or Love and Blunder? These films are borderline unwatchable. Love and Blunder felt worse than an episode of Two Broke Girls minus the laugh track. Try watching The Boys instead it makes the MCU look like a joke in comparison.
I don't think there is anything inherently bad with having Higher stakes than Endgame But the problem is that there are multiple high stakes which only happen in one specific story and not felt on the others It's like they are separate worlds that have 0 connections with each other Making it feel more like a barrage of movies and stories instead of one sing Universe that all characters live in
True. Phase 4 really should have been a time to ramp the stakes back down (kinda like in Falcon and Winter Soldier) before ramping them back up near the end of phase 4 and into phase 5 and 6.
Their movies went from mostly being action adventures with some comedy and comedic characters that fit their personality into every movie being a comedy with some action adventure, and every character trying to have a stand up routine in every scene
@@john_smith_john They always had humor in their movies before, but I feel it's gotten worse since the release of Guardians of the Galaxy and then Deadpool. It's like they tried switching to full comedy and it worked so well (in the money department) all the movies now just have to be the same. Like they're all just part of an episodic series with just a bunch of forced jokes in between exposition and some colorful effects here and there.
Thor Love & Thunder was so fucking absurd that the only way I could justify it being like that, was imagining that the entire thing was a movie of Korg telling us how things happened and embellishing it to the point of madness. It honestly felt like a complete parody of reality, like an Abridged Series of the real movie. I kept expecting the film to cut off and reveal a bunch of people sitting around a table with Korg, and then asking him if he was serious about Thor giving the kids his powers somehow and one of them wielding a goddamn lightning teddy bear. I was waiting for a punchline, but it never came.
Disney tried to make Star Wars fit into the MCU mold, when it was Star Wars (particularly under George Lucas’ care) that had the more important lesson: take your time to craft the story of each episodic film and then take a necessary break in between trilogy sagas (it doesn’t always have to be a 10-16 year hiatus, but it’s painfully obvious when the creative team hasn’t taken a necessary sabbatical: “Somehow, Palpatine returned”).
Also, the MCU has been primarily created and envisioned like this from the beginning, something that can't be said for Star Wars. Many other movie studios have tried to apply the "MCU mold" to their properties and have failed tremendously at doing so. Even DC, a company that is of very similar nature to that of Marvel's, is still trying to understand how to make their cinematic universe work. Thing is, not everything needs to be a cinematic universe -- certainly not Star Wars.
@@TekkLuthor They do--but their comments don't mean jack when the directors/writers can do almost whatever they want. For better or worse, even Dave Filoni has retconned SW lore (some were even Disney canon) if he feels like self-inserting his own characters.
I don't agree. I think the lesson from both Star Wars and the MCU is "commit to new characters and new stories," a lesson it's incredibly hard to accept, when the shiny lure of beloved old characters dangles like the promise of gold. The theory is that fans love Star Wars and Marvel for the characters they know. But what made those characters great was the experience of being introduced to them, falling in love with them, and then seeing them reach a satisfying conclusion. When you bring them back, that satisfaction gets complicated. You're inevitably messing with what people liked about them. You have to, because if you don't, the characters become static. We love all these characters because we watched them become what they are. We don't necessarily want them to become something else. And we don't necessarily want complications to the story of how they became who they are. So I think what's dragging both Star Wars and the MCU down is the erroneous assumption that it's the specific characters that made it what it is, rather than the thrill of living in this magical world of potential. Star Wars suffers the most when it trots out beloved old characters and trues to resell them to us. It succeeds when it introduces new characters, From Finn, Rey, and Kylo to Din Jarin and What's-His-Name from this new Andor show people seem to love (haven't seen it yet, but I see the fan response whether I want to or not). It's when they try to repackage Boba Fett and Obi-Wan that they get bogged down. With the MCU, they can't seem to commit to new characters without trying to prop them up on old characters' shoulders, with diminishing results. Of course, the MCU also seems to have a cookie-cutter problem, demanding every character follow a formula rather then letting them tell their own story. You can see in every new Marvel film a strong character imprisoned in a rote plot that has little to do with who they actually are, and the kind of story they actually want to tell. Shang-Chi was great for the first seven minutes, and the final three, but in between, a long, tiresome, overdeveloped backstory hijacked the plot away from who the character actually is in the here and now, to tell the dull story of how he fits into the overstuffed, under-cooked mystical side of the Marvel universe. The problem with both, as I see it, is the problem of serving the universe instead of the story, trying to appeal to what fans responded to in the past rather than risk creating something new. It's a shame, because what built that fan base in the first place was creating something new. Movies aren't Coca-Cola. You can't sell the same one over and over again forever. You can't sell the new one entirely on what people liked about the last one. The more they do that, the less effective it is.
@@rottensquid Great points. I finished Cyberpunk: Edgerunners recently, and I think it's a perfect example of your points. I went into it not knowing one thing about its universe or preestablished lore (other than the relentless memes mocking 2077). Despite all that, Edgerunners's 10 episodes managed to make me connect and care more about its universe and (most of) the characters. Can't say the same for MCU Phase 4. I even grew up with the very start of the MCU and have read the comics from when I was a little kid. So many of the MCU characters feel like a version of diet Tony Stark. They don't feel like actual characters. Going to go the opposite direction, but Shang-Chi was the closest to hitting a home run for me. First 2/3 of it was going well, but I'm disappointed they decided to throw the boring demon, dragon, kaiju, whatever thing fight at the end. Felt like the creators didn't have the confidence to write a strong story between the conflict with the dad and son. And yeah, all the mysticism stuff felt pretty shoehorned in and bloated; probably would've worked out stronger if they decided to lean into it in the sequel.
One of the main things that drew me in to the early movies is that they took themselves seriously. Whereas now every movie is trying to have all the same comedic relief that was in the original Iron Man movies, but that was what made THAT character good, not every character needs that. If they cut back 85% of comedic relief the new movies would be a lot better.
@@lisalamba560right? It was supposed to be dark and the end of the city and their species and they threw a cringe joke every couple of minutes, it was so awful, love and thunder wasn’t much better either
When I finished The Infinity Saga, I remembered every single thing that happened in each movie. When I finished The Multiverse Saga, I couldn’t remember a thing.
Yeah i also think a lot of people got off the mcu train after endgame. It was nice closure for everyone that grew up watching the original 6 avengers. Natasha and tony die saving the universe, hulk is basically retired after losing an arm and hawkeye retires to live with his family, steve goes back in time to live the rest of his life with peggy, and Thor only one who is basically immortal overcame his depression after infinity war and is ready to move to a new chapter of his life after giving the title of queen of asgard to valkyrie and leaving with the guardians in search for a new chapter in his life. Its literally the best ending for everyone who has been following the mcu since its early years. All the ogs are either dead or retired and the world is safe knowing they left a new generation of heroes to replace them. All of these new mcu projects (i do mean all of them) feel rushed. unlike the 1 phase of the mcu, where even if some of the movies dragged a little they felt somewhat connected, ig its also because everything was happening on earth on a smaller scale.
Keeping up with the MCU is starting to feel like a job, but I'm paying to do it. The moment you start to fall behind it's overwhelming to catch back up. I haven't seen many of the very newest shows or movies, and I'm not sure if I'll ever find the time
Ive been saying since the end of Endgame, the MCU would struggle to fill the void left by Tony Stark and Steve Rogers. They were the bedrock of the MCU and you can feel that something big is missing.
Doctor Who faced the same problem and has suffered for years. Once you have a universe-ending event every week, it gets tiring. We need low-key bad guys and less-severe stakes.
My biggest problem is that there’s just too much of it. It used to be maybe we’d get 2-3 movies a year and that was it. That’s easy to follow. Plus, Agents of SHIELD eventually became its own fun thing with the movies in the background. But 3-4 movies and 6 shows all in a year? Yeah it’s too much. Maybe have 3 movies and 2 shows a year. That’s so much easier to deal with and would prevent the burnout we’re all experiencing.
I would much prefer more spaced movies but with good quality (and good cgi, which we lost). I hate that whole series thing. I hate watching series in general because it almost always end up being terrible.
@@jonathaningram8157 Honestly, I kind of agree. But maybe have a movie in February, May, and November with a show starting in June that ends in July and then another show in September that ends in October. That would be much more manageable. Three movies decently far apart from each other and the shows taking up the late summer-early fall mantle.
This only happened due to the pandemic. All the projects slated for 2020 came out in 2021, and some slated for 2021 came out in 2022. So 2021 actually had two years worth of content, which wasn't originally planned. In 2022 we got 3 movies and 3 series, and it will probably continue to be like that or even less in the following years.
Discussion on Phase 4 shows feels incomplete without making comparisons to the MCU's prior shows such as Daredevil and what made those hit (or miss) when compared to say, She-Hulk
From high school to college to adult life, I really enjoyed everything up until endgame. It felt like the end of the wait I had as a child. Everything else now isn’t a question I wanted answered 😂
The problem with introducing already existing characters in phase 4 is they now always have to explain where tf they were when Thanos wiped out half the universe. It’s one of my big problems with The Eternals. So when they realized that the planets they are “helping” actually get destroyed and then they get their memory erased, suddenly they feel bad. But when Thanos wiped everyone out and the celestials told the eternals don’t get involved they were like “oh ok”.
I think that’s why they’re coming in with all this multiverse stuff. So they have a plausible reason why Professor X and Dr Doom haven’t been affecting the universe for the past decade. Honestly, I’m not crazy about going this route. It seems like pure fan service to just bring fully developed fan favourite characters into the MCU with a handwave.
This is explained in Eternals though: Thanos actually had a pretty big impact by giving Earth MORE time before hatching it’s Celestial, but that ultimately since the Eternals goal is just to ensure a Celestial hatches from its planet, Thanos doing something that postpones but does nothing to stop that cycle doesn’t actually effect them that much.
Tbh how much time would they even have to react? The entirety of Infinity War took place in a day and it took them like a week just to collect all of the eternals. They didnt know he was coming. The didnt know anything. I just wrote it off to the being suprised and not even able to reactas a team
My other issue with Phase 4 is the introduction of the multiverse. Where the Infinity Saga was so brilliant at weaving storylines together (all to the credit of the writers), now multiverses give the safety net of nostalgia and mulligans on story structure.
I drew the line at Endgame. I’ve even found myself doing the unthinkable and missing numerous Phase 4 films and am not invested in their characters any where near as much as pre Endgame Marvel films.
Same. I've skipped on several of the Disney+ shows and have no intention on seeing them. There doesn't seem to be any cohesive and well thought plan for the MCU like everything pre-Endgame. It all feels very much like a greedy cash-grab to pump out as much content as possible with very little reverence for the source material or telling quality stories. Sad.
I also stopped after Endgame, which itself was very flawed. Too much, too big, too many moving parts. It's the problem with the source material, comics. It's hard to tell a continuous story with tight continuity when you keep expanding the list of characters, worlds, stories, timelines, etc.
@@apostolostvable I also felt that Endgame was very flawed and oddly rushed. They had been planning it for years and it seemed like they still couldn't quite figure out how to make the time travel thing make sense and not be full of plot holes. Peggy Carter suddenly being Steve's reason for being felt weird too. Makes me think the original draft had him dying like Tony and they took a left turn suddenly and needed a way to retire the character without killing him and just inserted Peggy back in. It was odd to me.
@@ScarletVoodoo it’s not that they couldn’t figure out how to make time travel work, it’s that time travel was like the only thing that could undo the stakes of infinity war and they found a way to make that into a clip show to bait fans
what strikes me as odd is.. phase 3 already felt like it was introducing the new generation but then phase 4 has been introducing an even NEWER generation; multiple new generations and teams.. and we're just holding out and waiting for those teams to form those young avengers won't be so young anymore by the time they put that team together lol
I feel like the first wave of films were 95% story and 5% set-up for future stories. So the set-up was extra exciting because it was so sparse, and people talked about it as much as the stories. The problem is, the set-up part of these movies isn't actually the content, it's just the promise of content. in tiny doses, it's wonderful. But when producers think we're more interested in set-up than story, the promise of the next story begins to replace the content of this one. It's like if every cereal box contained an empty cereal bowl, with an add at the bottom telling us about the next exciting marshmallow flavor sensation I can one day eat out of it. That's fun, except I just payed the same price for half the cereal and promotion for the next cereal, which I many not even be interested in.
@@rottensquid Agreed. It was more focused on the story at hand, while laying a foundation little by little for future projects. Now it feels like mostly setup and very little payoff so far.
Didn't know it, but I watched to hear this line: "Without that discussion, these projects stop being stories that impact culture, and instead become … content-a momentary distraction before ushering the audience along to the next attraction." Brilliant and necessary POV on not just the MCU but "content" in general.
The problem with the current state of the MCU is that it has become a convulated self-aware satient being. The She-Hulk finale is a testament to that. Instead of writing compelling and well connected stories, the MCU has become a conduit of fan service with social comentaries, cameos and breaking the fourth wall anticts. The strength of the MCU was in the interconnection of stories and characters, not characters mentioning other characters. Actually the Loki finale was great and the consequences should have been felt in the movies that followed after. Spiderman breaking the multiverse should have been the result of Loki's actions. Dr Strange into the Multiverse of Madness should have been as a result of Spiderman's actions. Wanda should have been manipulated by a Kang variant to cause shenanigans all over the multiverse. The Gods in Moonknight should have imprisoned a Kang Variant Rama-Tut. Gorr The God Butcher should have killed a lot of gods including many from the pantheon of Gods in Moonkight setting a Kang variant Rama-Tut free and causing Bastet the panther god into exile. This weakens the strength of Wakanda and T'challa dies, then the events of Wakanda Forever play out. These events do not even need to be on the screen they can just play out in the background and ateast show that there is a direction and connection going forward to Avengers Kang Dynasty. You will have multiple Kangs roaming the Multiverse and no one knows which Kang or Kangs pop-up in Antman Quantumania. Instead the MCU has a lot of different stories with loose ends and end credits scenes that will be explained by a random person in an MCU TV show as a by-the-way comment rendering the whole scene obsolete.
damn. they should had hire you to write the next mcu phase. the way you describe in few sentences how all of the stories could built up on each other makes more sence than what we have right now
This comment is underatter, bro you just wrote a whole a whole story. Idk how much time you spend writing this but I can tell you put a lot of time and thought and your are one hella of a creative and visionary peroson
@Ieat10kittens it was ready written out, just like pretty much the whole of the MCU for phase 3 Before this SJW nonsense destroyed cinema. Hollywood is just detached from reality and looked to Twitter for ideas thinking that was the actual direction culture was going when in reality people were tired of the behaviors on display at Twitter. So much so that the richest redditor of them all bought it just to shut that shit down.
I always felt like they should have stopped or at least take a considerable break after 'Endgame'. That was such an impressive end, but, they didn't even let it breathe.
yeah, covid also was kind of perfect timing for this. if they had waited a couple or even a few years to release everything that takes place afterward, it would have left people wanting for more of that familiar marvel consistency, instead of feeling smothered. a longer pause would have also let them develop phase 4 stories more, i think they could have tried to fix a lot of the problems if they wanted to but instead chose to fall back on the reliability of loyal fans and such
Yup. That’s exactly how I feel. It peaked at Endgame, but rather than let the achievement stand on its own for a half minute, they felt like they had to drown us in a litany of mediocre Phase 4 content in this seemingly desperate attempt to keep the momentum going. That’s why at the end of the day I decided to buy the infinity saga box set. Yeah, it was a lot of money, but to me at least it was worth investing in it as the MCU that I want to remember.
So true about the heroes only sticking to the conflicts created in their stories. It feels like marvel makes a whole story around a villain only for that villain to be destroyed or killed in the end
Underrated comment, endgame was emotionally the movie we’ve all been waiting for and a cry because we knew it was no good ending. But as far as plot, movie & overall masterpiece Infinity War is the best movie made this century.
@@ramonmabry Oh man. Infinity War is a great superhero movie. It is not the best movie made this century, it’s not even the best movie released in 2018. 😂
@@oscaraltman8122 gotta agree with this, you had Hereditary and Annihilation to contend with. Honestly I love Infinity War, but Vice takes the win for me.
@@cowtowncaptain7649 Have you seen The Ballad of Buster Scruggs? Amazing western anthology from 2018 with the incredibly talented Tim Blake Nelson, check it out!
You bring up something that I've sincerely been annoyed by, and it's the fact that it feels like Phase 4 wasn't planned. It feels like they intentionally plotted out everything up to phase 3 and realized they were making so much money that there was no way they could stop. Except now things are being whipped off the cuff while they try and figure out how it's all going to come together.
Did you know “Dr Strange Multiverse”was supposed to come out before “Spiderman No way Home”? That’s the reason the movie feels slightly off in regards to plot points. COVID threw everything for a loop but Marvel couldn’t adapt tbh.
Ironically, the release of the moneyball book and subsequent movie got almost every other team in the mlb to use its strategies as a status quo. Ever since, the A’s have been a laughing stock team once again, and I think that’s a pretty telling part of the analogy you used it for
Hate to reply 10 months later, but this isn't necessarily true. They are a laughing stock in recent memory (2022-present), but the A's strung together multiple successful seasons & made the playoffs in the 2010s with the same guy from the movie, Billy Beane, and the same small budget. Three straight playoff appearances from 2012 - 2014, then three straight from 2018-2020
I think another thing about keeping stories all set to come together is it helps audiences keep track of what's going on. Between all the shows and movies, I can't remember much about stakes, villains, or even some entire characters. Besides, it feels like the shows don't matter - Wandavision was about her grief hurting others, and she realized that was wrong. She decided to deal with it in a healthier way. Multiverse of Madness - screw all that, now she doesn't care who dies
Yup, all continuity is just out of the window. That goes for character motivations, just like you said, but also for power levels. One movie they are fighting intergalactic threats, then in the next movie they struggle with some random local villains... makes no sense.
When watching MoM, I thought "This makes almost no sense if you haven't watched WandaVision. But if you HAVE watched WandaVision, it repeats the same story in a more cartoonish and less nuanced way." Wanda's villainous (although restrained) acts in WandaVision due to her grief for Vision made sense, while her mass-murdering people to have extra health insurance for a couple of kids that just popped into existence seemed over the top to me.
Lmao, *did* you watch WV? It ends with her reading the Dark Hold in search of her kids. She absolutely does *not* choose a healthy way of dealing. She is literally forced to let down the hex and then flees into isolation. Not healthy at all.
@@brianb-t4v This is exactly the point. Not everyone watched WV. How were we supposed to know that and watch an actual film having that in mind? Like he mentioned, it’s a lack of cohesion.
@@azathothdaemonsultan666 feels like a comics holdover to me. There were always story arcs in comics that crossed over multiple publications (like, say, a villain built up in a X-Men related comic that then faces the Avengers in full form) and if you wanted the full story you’d have to read comics you normally wouldn’t or just get enough context sticking with your usual comics to get most of the plot. I didn’t love every D+ show, but I watched all of them because I’ll know they’ll at least tangentially relate to future films.
Phase 1-3 I watched most films on opening night, the characters they created felt special and they gave us reasons to care for them. Now a days there's just too much going on. They pump out more and more stories and characters and don't give them the time to develop or for us to form a connection with. Those connections are the reasons that made Tony's death so painful, its what made Steve's Endgame scene so powerful to us as the viewers. They need to slow down and let us develop these connections to the new characters and the new stories that they want to tell.
WRONG, these characters have only had 1 movie as they were introductions, all phase 1 characters the og had SEVERAL MOVIES TO get introduced and get development for 3 whole phases and lastly Kang is the villain of this as we going towards cosmic entities and everything around this as phase 5 will definitely be mutants as soon as their contracts end in 2025
@@vispiralgamingiv8462 no. Civil war introduced spiderman and black panther. Ant-man only had a single movie before the team up as did vision and Wanda. No one felt it was jarring when watching civil war. The amount of times you see the characters isn’t the problem. The problem is that these shows and movies just aren’t very good. The quantity has gone up but the writing for these stories has gone down. I watched the first 3 shows and haven’t bothered with anymore except spiderman and shangchi. The content is just bad. Audience retention is hanging on by a thread because they’re waiting for end game magic to happen again. People don’t wanna watch 10 mediocre shows to know what all the characters are up to
@@supermelonbread The connection people have to iron man, Thor, and captain America is a lot stronger than ant man, spiderman, or black panther. Why? Because they had movies detailing their backgrounds, which is exactly what the guy was saying. You can't use the characters you are trying to use to prove your point, they are the exceptions. They are the ones people don't graduate towards. Spiderman is a weird one, however. He has many movies prior to the team up, just with different actors and a different studio. So, some people really connect with him while some don't.
It would have been a perfect ending but I don't agree, I think what they should have done was not release anything new unless it was up to the standard of Phase 3.
Watching this nearly 2 years later, it is so refreshing to see that Marvel is finally pointing itself in one direction. For the first time since Endgame, it is clear as to where we are going. We have left the Avengers behind and are now entering the era of the X-men and Fantastic 4.
My main two problems with the MCU nowadays are that it feels bloated and that everything had built up to Endgame. That’s what I had invested my time into. I feel what they managed to pull off with the infinity saga just can’t be replicated.
@@josuafraser4865 they can have a great line up and still have meh / bad movies, which has been most phase 4 content so far (imo moon knight was the only thing that felt just as good as pre phase 4)
I saw almost every single movie before Endgame, and I was so deeply satisfied with Endgame as an ending that I decided then and there that I wouldn't watch another. Every discussion I have seen since makes it seem like the right choice.
I watched the first few series/movies after endgame and I was disappointed with every single one. After that I said I would only watch the things that genuinely interested me. Almost every piece of media seems disconnected or has major flaws that cannot be ignored. I think y’all made the best choice lmao
They can't do anything except raise the stakes higher and higher. So where do they go after the entire universe is threatened? The multiverse of course, but it just doesnt hit the same now.
You’re missing out on skipping WandaVision. Very solid piece of storytelling with fantastic acting and the humor didn’t feel of place given the sitcom nature.
I’m still mad at the ending of The Eternals. They revealed of the unimaginable size of a celestial and how insignificant earth is in comparison to them, and all it did was fetch the Eternals and leave. Not a single mention afterwards of it, or the massive statue that appeared in the middle of the ocean, even though an event like that would be world changing. Such a cool reveal with so many implications and possible characters reactions wasted on literally nothing
That's the problem with a lot of phase 4. There are a lot of major events happening but none of them feel like they have any lasting impact on the overall narrative, and it's not like you can say it's because they just want to be their own thing because these next phases of films hav been marketed as the multiverse saga
@@kbreezy1581 half the universe was snapped out and snapped back into existence, superhumans and aliens and gods and magic were all revealed to exist, I don’t think a giant celestial would cause as much panic in their world as you think it would. especially since he didn’t really do anything and just disappeared shortly after.
The ending of Moon Knight had the entire world getting slaughtered by an Egyptian deity judging humanity for future crimes and no one cared. Not a single reference to this event after Moon Knight at all. How tf is that even possible?
I don't think Marvel will ever achieve what they did with the Infinity Saga. We were so invested in the characters. I always go back and look at the movie theater reactions of Endgame and still get goosebumps.
Okay no one else is really saying it but the way you compared the MCU too MoneyBall was really clever. I’m gonna subscribe just for how well put together this video is.
There was a time and a place for Marvel MCU films. They won’t be around forever, and it reflects on what people wanted at the time. There will be another movement in media that will define future decades to come. The problem with many stories is that they don’t know when to say: “The End”, and “They all lived happily ever after”; having a conclusion that stays concluded is a powerful message.
Dr. strange seemed so promising but has been so disappointing in this phase. If his character had been well used he could be a good keypiece for this phase
@@igorporfiirio4915 True, I thought his character could also carry the franchise like Iron man or Captain America. He definetly has the charisma. Not so sure why it doenst work. Maybe he works best as (extremely cool) sidekick character that shows up once in a while. Maybe hes abit too stoic or overpowered dunno.
@@joerileijdsman3279 ii jus think they don’t do enough with him. His powers in Infinity War were really cool but in his newest movie he really only does 3 things. The music scene was kinda cool, thats it really
@@joerileijdsman3279 the problem with him is that he doesnt take the lead. Iron man and Captain America took the initiative in being a leader they competed with each other as rival leaders, but also friends and allies as seen in Avengers and Civil war. They had greatly differing ideas on how to handle things, but had matching charisma so the audience grew attached to both of them. but Strange doesnt do that. He “mysteriously” does fuck-all before spider man or thor solves the problem for him. He “strangely” lacks a personality outside of freaky wizard magic. He has been very underdeveloped since infinity war.
@@joerileijdsman3279 I think this hits the nail on the head. Even in the comics, Strange was never the "hero" character. He was always the cool mysterious guy who the actual hero calls up to help. And I think that's how he shines best.
I think the problem is simpler: the initial phases started with being grounded in reality and built to a cosmic, ultimate stakes conclusion. In phase 4, they seem to be trying to top that - now building from something already fantastical and outlandish and getting ever more so - which makes keeping things relatable on a human level very hard. I think a better strategy would have been to “get back down to earth”; focus initially on the street level heros whose lives are more similar to our own, building empathy with the characters we’re supposed to care about. The big stories about timelines and multiverses can come, but you must first make care about the characters again. So tl:dr: it’s a all a bit too much.
It really does feel like an anime where the "power levels" have grown over time, and now we have villains who can blow up entire universes, so where the heck do you go from there? You can't.
I think that’s why I’m so excited for the next Spider-Man. The new suit and new scenario seems to be like they’re trying to introduce the classic Spider-Man story: Peter Parker has a life trying to get into education, paying rent, and balancing all that with being Spider-Man.
Yes 100% you've put this really well, this is why they've struggled. That's why I thought Falcon & Winter Soldier was quite good, it was smaller scale & real world.
Surprise villains can be fine, but in my opinion, the pay off with them is never the surprise, but having a moment where everything "clicks". Where a lot of things make sense in hindsight, or the satisfaction of recognizing the build up and seeing your observations recognized with a correct guess
@@johnfulcher8448 I'm not sure if we should call it "MCU burnout" or "MCU crash!" Everything was building up to the finale, the Endgame, where everything was heading and the hype was real! Suddenly we're in a situation where everyone is following their own story, and whenever something big happens we wonder "Where is everyone else?" We had they high, here's the crash!
@@xendordawnburst9969 that's it, at this point every movie they make has to basically be a avengers movie or else it just dosnt seem to make much sense
Unfortunately, pulling a Kaizer Soze takes some great acting chops and writing. The current writers just aren't that good. Indeed, most Hollywood script writers seem to be just plain bad. The ones who are good, I don't think are being brought on board the Big Budget projects, except for a few. Interestingly, the DC movies are getting better, which is a genuine shocker.
I think my favourite version of this is Littlefinger being revealed to have killed Jon Arryn in Game of Thrones. He's already a villain at this point, but you just think he's a backstabbing opportunist. It's only in that scene when you realise he is so, so much worse. And there were already signs of that which make the reveal make sense.
A whole year later and well into phase 5 and this post endgame problem still hasn't been resolved. It feels worse now that the Kang storyline has been completely abandoned (along with a lot of phase 4 storylines/setups) and RDJ as Doom was announced. All of this seems to be falling apart to the point that Feige has turned to desperate attempts to bring people back with RDJ rather than quality stories and characters that matter and work together towards a common goal.
This is what I explained to my friends lmao, the avengers are pretty much gone, and they’re just tossing all these new characters and issues at us with minimal crossover making one big mess for the average fan to follow through, personally I’m just waiting for the midnight suns or at the very least a ghost rider to appear
Do you remember what phase 2 and 3 were actually like? Constantly every movie everyone was wondering where the other hero’s are and why they aren’t interacting, the nostalgia goggles for the first 3 phases is insane to me
They brought the whole Marvel universe together for two movies to fight bad guys and then suddenly no-one talks to each other ever again. Infinity War and Endgame should have been the new formula. No more single hero movies while the entire world/universe is going to be annihilated. I get the super heroes have their own charms but they translated perfectly in the group dynamic movies. Sure give them a single movie to establish the character if you want, but from there introduce them to the actual world, not their own little bubble that nobody else is allowed to enter. I was really disappointed that we didn't have a proper Guardians + Thor movie.
@@bertmanstew5598 I was writing a literal essay for this, how everything should be making sense now... until I remembered that the Marvel movies were released in disorder and there where numerous big problems and every other hero just didn't seem to care. If we wait maybe everything will make sense.
@@SolarTxl also people complain about the quality going downhill when it’s always been mostly mid, a couple garbage movies, and a few that shined. Civil War came out around the same time as Thor 2 and Iron Man 2/3, Antman 2 and Captain Marvel came out around the same time as Infinity War and Endgame, etc.
Really wish Marvel had taken a well earned rest after Endgame or Far From Home. The virus seems like a nice built in excuse to back off for a year or so and just let it breathe. It's just become exhausting trying to follow all the shows and movies now and the compressed release schedule has a lot to do with that. One of the problems that didn't get mentioned in this otherwise excellent video is the meshing of TV continuity with the films' continuity. In the past Marvel TV and Marvel Studios kept things apart from each other. Agents of Shield and Agent Carter didn't really factor into the movies. Now we have the new big bad introduced in a TV show and he'll be moving into the films. And if you didn't watch WandaVision you'd be confused as to why she was all of a sudden evil and trying to find her children (of which she has none) in Multiverse of Madness. It's not right for the more casual fans who are into the films but don't care to watch all the D+ shows or just don't have the time to.
Pandemic was the opportunity of a lifetime for pushing content to people online. That's why we got the influx of awful shows like Ms Marvel, Moon Knight, She-Hulk, etc. It's all a cash grab orchestrated to please the shareholders of the megacorps.
That's basically it. They threw away their fandom. People that were okay and liked watching their movies twice a year, couldn't give less of a shit to these tv shows and now these people feel lost in the stories told in the movies and discouraged to even watch them.
The lack of cohesive storylines hit the nail right on the proverbial infinity stones. It feels like they stepped over their own feet in order to try and tell too many isolated narratives with too many different hands passing over them. Btw, the editing on this was top shelf. 👌
@Hatterway But at least the phase 1 films had their own coherent endings to keep us satisfied during the wait for the ultimate event. The incompatible tone and quality of the phase 4 films will make the ultimate event less impactful because it won't be as natural as Infinity War. Also, we haven't really seen true character development in these shows. They get introduced to us in their ultimate state almost immediately, or they start off undeveloped and then abruptly become fully developed (very little time for them to transform).
@@TexasIronLegend I agree 💯 Starting them off as one step away from an avenger/superhero is so underwhelming because we don't really see the development (like you mentioned) of a real character arc but instead, they either start off close or they go from a normal person to a superhero in a single episode. Well said.
The MCU has been special to me for a long time. It seems like in a lot of ways it's state mirrored my own life. Endgame came out my senior year of high school and it was both the MCU and my high point. Then corona comes along and nothing is the same, everything is directionless, monotonous, just bland and uncertain and it leaves you yearning for what came before.
Think about it though. Was phase 4 that bad? Sure it suffered but I think a big part of that is the pandemic. Now everyone wants what come before. Why? Because life was simpler. That’s my take anyway
People getting old dont realize theyre also getting "boring". When its not a super devisive, black-supremacist film, im fine with some of the more lighthearted, dumb entertainment. Just ignore the people telling you everything is going to shot.
Yeah, which is weird because they were teased to be returning back in Age of Ultron. Then they didn't even involve them in Civil War. They definitely need a SHIELD to have things come together. Especially with all these characters popping up all over the place. Perfect for recruiting a new team.
I reckon there should’ve been a 1-2 year break after endgame. To give time for everyone to settle and for rumours and hype to begin. Marvel could’ve taken their time to make the films/series and eventually after that year or two they would announce the new saga and the films that would begin it.
I felt something very strongly when I watched Endgame, at the beginning of the credits where all the major cast members had their signatures show up (shades of Star Trek: The Undiscovered Country), that it really was The End. This was the end of the MCU. The greatest shared universe, beginning and ending with Tony Stark as Iron Man, the last truly epic filmmaking achievement of our lifetimes (possibly of cinema EVER), and now it was over. And it was fantastic. What a goddamn achievement. It felt like anything after that would just be beating a dead horse. Beating a zombie Doctor Strange, maybe. And you know what? Nothing I've seen since then has convinced me that I was wrong.
"The greatest shared universe, beginning and ending with Tony Stark as Iron Man, the last truly epic filmmaking achievement of our lifetimes (possibly of cinema EVER)" Now lets not get over ourselves.
The Shang-Chi ending part was so facts, they really could’ve just had Wenwu be angry at the village for her death or for not giving him their powers and they didn’t need to include the dragons at all
The dragons were a key part of the movie. The mother got her powers from the dragon, and the village entire purpose was to be protecters, the father being mad at the village for her death would make no sense. He also had his own powers called the 10 rings, and has never been shown to be in search for more power. Having a battle because he doesn’t have even more power when no one has posed a single threat to him makes 0 sense. It was his enemies that killed his wife. He only went to the village because he was being called by the dragon. Did you even watch the movie?
I know stories end and all but you also have to know that Marvel has soooo many more comics and stories they can do for the MCU. I think ever since RDJ and Chris Evan’s left ppl just didn’t care abt the movies anymore without watching them
I feel like with every new release, they have to keep upping the stakes, and eventually it feels overwhelming to have stakes that high in a solo movie.
That's the thing. Once Endgame ended they needed to dial everything back, or else the world would be facing "end of the world" type events with every movie. For example - Shang-Chi had the potential to just tell a story about a family conflict, but had to throw in a creature that would destroy the world at the end. They could have just moved that to a different movie, and made it a team-up thing. Or even just left it for a Shang-Chi 2 that went into what the rings were.
@@SRFAA absolutely. Shang-Chi, Eternals, Dr Strange 2, so many of these movies have had world- or even dimension-ending stakes. Black Widow even had the Red Room manipulating the whole world for that to be set up and resolved in one movie.
This is what I call the supernatural effect. Season 5 was a good ending. Endgame was a good ending. I'd be satisfied never watching a marvel movie again after endgame (except for anything directed by waititi)
I doubt it. It's a product of hype. People were hyped to see every actor that played spiderman together. If you re watched it now you will realize how empty and contradictory the story is. It's quite bad.
I don’t think so. It wasn’t terrible but the only reason it got so much hype and fan attention is because of nostalgia for the other spiderman actors. In twenty years, no one is going to care at all about that. Nostalgia is a horrible way to try and improve a story.
The Marvel Cinematic Universe is the quote from Harvey Dent where he says, "You either die a hero, or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain."
Yeah, I don't know how they could fail so badly after Endgame, when they succeeded before. I mean, they wrote the handbook. Introduce new generation of superheroes, focus on 3-4 main heroes driving a core narrative. Get a climatic movie with these main heroes. Slowly introduce another 4-6 side heroes alongside, intro'd via TV shows or as part of the main narrative. Build towards another event film. Rinse and repeat.
This is literally what they're doing right now. Like, to a T. People just wan't everything. If they didn't kill off characters and introduce others, people would still complain that "Theyre just doing the same." There's no winning.
Simple, that the entire MCU was building up to Endgame. Thanos was being teased since 2012, since the first Avengers movie. And now... That's it. it's over. Endgame was just too much of an ending. Not that i'm complaining, I rather things end on a high note and be done with it, but now they are just trying to do something the MCU wasn't meant to do.
While I agree that the connections are important the biggest issue for me is the over dependence on humor and lack of stakes. Allow moments to be serious and the consequences to be devastating. If there are no consequences then there are no risks, GoT was so wonderful during it's prime because you were unsure who would live and who would die. If Marvel adopts this mentality after phase 4 they might succeed more. Allow certain characters, to lose some serious fights and allow the world to feel the effects. Then you can bring characters together to battle this issue and it will feel genuine. For Example in Doctor Strange MoM: Can you imagine how much better it would have been if Strange had lost to evil Strange? America Chavez is killed not by Wanda, but by the evil Strange who had beaten our Strange and made a deal with Mephisto or Dormammu sending our Strange to be a prisoner? Where in another story Wanda has to team up with the Midnight sons to save him? Real stakes make the story immersive without them they are bland.
Well if you think about marvel character comic books, they have entire arcs and stories that have no connection to other characters, marvel movies need to remain independent whilst having specific movies dedicated to linking the dots eg teamup movies ect
Not a problem. Just get another Strange, that's the exact same as our Strange from the multiverse (after all, this nonsense can be used to fix anything, the multiverse is 'infinite'). Or better yet, that's not even a stake, because Wanda can do anything. She can make the evil Strange into spaghetti and meatballs. Done. The problem isn't the 'stakes'. The problem is the nonsense of 'multiverse', where no character is truly dead, the nonsense of woke genius girl boss op characters like 'Wanda', where she can apparently do anything and so on.
i feel like 30% of the shows and movies have been good in phase 4 but as you said, they really don't have good endings or cohesion leaving us feel empty when they end, i feel like most people enjoyed wandavision, loki, moon knight when they came out and episodes were being dicussed but when they ended most people forgot about them. Shang Chi and No Way Home were especially good as well.
Wandavision was really frustrating for me because I thought the show was great, quite original and prepared for something even better. But what we got (Multiverse of madness) was really disappointing with a serial killer Wanda that doesn't stitch well with the ending of wandavision and a totally absent white Vision. I couldn't get into Loki because I thought that, well, Loki was just dumb. He is despicted as a master of lies, a manipulator, but during the whole show he is just stupid. At first I thought he figured it all out and had a plan for everything, but no, not at all. It's a miracle the dude is still alive. Overall I think his character is badly written. Female loki isn't better.
@@jonathaningram8157 ye u have summed up how i feel about those shows aswell. Wanadavision was good overall but the ending was a generic fight and multiverse of madness did nothing to help her character, they didnt bring back white vision or do anything with that storyline indeed. And loki had an interesting story in my opinion but you are right in that he was dumbed down so that the female loki could stand out more
_what we got (Multiverse of madness) was really disappointing with a serial killer Wanda that doesn't stitch well with the ending of wandavision_ It's just shitty writing and directing. People don't understand what happened. - Scott Derrickson who did Doctor Strange 1 was supposed to direct. - Nightmare was the main villain. It was going to be a twisted surreal horror film. - Wanda was to start out as a genuine ally of Strange but fall down a dark path by the film's end. - America Chavez was going to be introduced as a multiverse jumping character. - The multiverse was going to come unraveled in this film. - No Way Home would come *after* this film, and so would not need the stupid plot about getting into college and Strange casting the cartoon forget spell. [which makes no 'magical' sense and is just one of the dumbest uses of magic - ever] - There were actual story boards showing Chavez opening the portals to rescue Strange in No Way Home. - Both films - potentially - would have actually made sense. - This was tricky and took time to develop. But Disney was impatient and greedy and told Scott to hurry up or step off. - Scott got fired. - And then Covid 19 happened. - This completely made a joke of Disney's hurry up demand because it shut down the whole film industry - Scott would have had plenty of time to write MOM as it turned out - but...too late now - he went on to make the Black Phone (a much better horror film) instead. - Enter Sony: Now they refused to wait for Multiverse Of Madness and just rewrote NWH with one of the *stupidest* plots in the history of writing. lol. [Sony and Disney basically f'ed both films into the ground] - Meanwhile Feige in desperation turned to burnt-out Sam Raimi to direct MoM, and minimum wage writer Michael Waldron to do the multiverse writing (cuz he did cartoon multiverse for Rick and Morty) - The result is a complete cluster fk. Multiverse of Madness retcons the entire Infinity Saga so that it makes *no sense* and turns a complex character Wanda Maximov - into a cartoon horror movie witch from an evil dead movie. What a mess.
_Wandavision was good overall but the ending was a generic fight_ There was more to it than that - that was *not* generic but many people didn't get it. The two androids had a battle of logic. The two witches had a psychological war. There's a great scene where Wanda using Runes - sneaks up on Agatha and attempts to westview her [mind control]. But Agatha is counting on this - and she traps Wanda in *her* mind where the other witches all turn on Wanda, because they know she is the foretold Scarlett Witch. Almost no one got this scene though - they think it's just generic something-something fighting. Should have been better executed but it's still better than almost anything else in all of phase 4. The dumb fkry that went on in multiverse of madness does not even bear examining. Wanda is too stupid to even understand how a woman can actually 'have babies' with the power of 'female' and would not need to go on insane killing spree.... [which Raimi's laughable 'horror' movie needs and just uses Wanda to make it happen] Raimi and Waldron don't get this, and don't get how the character they've created has no credibility from a female perspective.
90% of everything Endgame and after has been absolute GARBAGE. Shang Chi was not bad but not great, No Way Home was a colossal waste of time because much like Wandavision and the new Dr Strange, Marvel Disney has no clue how a multiverse works.
I didn't even get into marvel movies until 2014. Been a while now though. I saw Guardians and wanted to know what was up with these infinity stones, and when I found it it was an entire cohesive 'universe,' I was amazed, then I learned about these 'phases.' I got hooked instantly and never read the comics and had no idea what infinity stones were. The ultimate hype was _Infinity War._ I still remember seeing that in IMAX over 4 years ago.... how time flies, it is insane
I just wanna say, the hook with the baseball movie at the beginning of the video was fantastic. Brilliant strategy to absorb the viewer with a compelling story right off the bat, and then use it as an analogy throughout the rest of the video. Creates a great sense of cohesiveness to the whole video, as if it was a mini movie in and of itself. I just couldn't help but be intriguied and not click off the whole time. Just subscribed, looking forward to seeing what else you'll be making in the future!
I completely agree with everything but mostly the line in the intro that endgame felt like the end. I hadn’t thought of the pandemics impact but you’re totally right. It was the pause to let the finality of endgame settle and now it feels hard to jump back in. Also, the frequency of their projects feeling like “content” is spot on
I think the most interesting parallel you didn't mention here is the Post Moneyball problem the A's have, which is that while money-ball as a concept gave them a big competitive boost on a low budget, it didn't solve any of the problems that caused them to struggle in the first place. Once the rest of the league adapted to the concepts they were introducing the weaknesses money-ball was hiding started to shine through once again.
Yeah, and also, a 20-game win streak might _SOUND_ good, but it is essentially meaningless because of the sheer insane amount of games that is played in an MLB regular season (and even more in the post season). 162 games in the regular season! Winning 20 in a row out of 162 is not gonna really help. Consistently winning all season is what brings success, not a brief period of a few weeks.
Not really, Thats like saying musicians get to big for their new album. Its not they they set the bar too high they just seperated themselves to far from what their original fans fell in love with. Marvel Dropped a 3 part album that got them into the mainstream and instead of telling the fans they are making movies that have nothing to do with eachother they lie and say they havent changed abit and its the fans fault for their failures. The fans need to stop listening to the older music and they are bad for not wanting anything to do with their new music. They didnt set a bar, they just got in their own way and cant take the critisizm.
@@versecontro4898artists branch out tho, the great ones evolve in sound, but you’re right that they don’t abandon what they gave the audience at first. artiste balance this while the mcu fails to by abandoning everything in previous phases
The bar wasn't that high. Marvel movies are consistent, not masterpieces. If we got marvel on the level of the Batman with scattered stories I don't think people would complain too much
"You could not live with your own failure. Where did that bring you? Back to me." That wasn't just him adressing the Avengers, that was him adressing the MCU. He was trying to warn us!
One of the issues I had with Multiverse of Madness was that there wasn't that much multiverse explored. There was 1 scene near the start where they rapidly flew through many and then they just seemed to stick with 1 multiverse.
I'm not a huge fan of marvel beyond spiderman but I do have to say watching everything back to back until endgame was a really cool experience and is a huge achievement in entertainment history.
Awesome video. For me it boils down to there just being too many characters to "care" about post endgame. There's a lot that I've enjoyed in phase 4, but there just isn't enough time with each character to become invested in and emotionally tied to. There were a lot of characters in endgame, but we got the time with the characters that we were most invested in. Going forward, there will be even more characters added, so it feels like it's impossible that I'll be as emotionally invested as before (still got the feels about iron man).
I hadn't realised this is exactly my ick with the MCU until reading this comment. You're exactly right, it was much more manageable pre-Endgame and now it's just impossible to keep up with. Plus unlike the comics there's an expectation of needing to see every single movie/show that drops to understand the greater narrative or arc; obviously there are even more characters in the comics than the films but there is 0 expectation of keeping up with all of them.
This is such a good take. I have enjoyed more of Phase 4 than not, but my enthusiasm for the MCU is nowhere near what it was before Endgame. I haven't been able to put my finger on why, but you absolutely nailed it.
it's cus there's nothing this phase is building up to rn. shit cool when you was waiting for thanos. now we gotta wait a brick before they even start teasing Kang
@@User61918 they already teased kang in loki. He was the big bad lol. It has been building up to kang, just very slowly. Even in the ant man movies with his house in the dimension.
No way home was fantastic. But I feel like our love for the film is generated mostly from nostalgia. Still, it’s nice to see these old characters in new atmospheres. I feel like the MCU can get so much mileage out of these characters. Take Willem Defoe as Norman Osborn. For me, he was the best part of No Way Home. I feel like the MCU can continue to use these older characters as long as they can continue to evolve them. And to your point, bringing these characters together in an organic way is the only way they can replicate that original MCU magic. I hope they get it together soon and they stop biting off more than they can chew with all these little projects. I think they take away from the bigger picture.
I mean, our love of Avengers is also based on nostalgia, and what a moment it was to have the novelty of them all getting together. It’s ok for some of these movies to rely on things like that. It’s reassuring and comforting when characters we all know come together and fit like a satisfying jigsaw puzzle. It’s like at the heart of every nerd’s hopes and dreams lol.
No Way Home was really really fun because of the crossovers they did, and I could never bash that. I had a great time watching it. Otherwise it was not a very good movie though. For anyone who is uninvested in those characters it was mid at best. A lot of the writing was half-assed, but it's just because the focus was on the crossover not the story. It's great but it isn't fantastic by any stretch of the imagination.
Sadly with Shang Chi, I doubt we'll see the same level of fight scenes with Brad Allen passing away. He was a long time stuntman for Jackie Chan and was part of some of the best fight scenes in Jackie's movies. That man was incredibly talented and won't be easy to replace as a choreographer.
This is my first time stumbling upon one of your videos and I have to say, this was a wonderfully crafted list and you really nail down each individual point. Very impressive. I'll be tuning in again.
I think a very large key factor in all of this too is this idea of consequence that you talked about phase 4 lacking. It’s almost as if the next big phase villain should have been eased in before thanos was even defeated so that we understand even before the giant payoff that there is bigger fish in this pond than him. Also they have horribly mismanaged the way that these characters and villains fight in this phase, as it just feels ridiculous and unbelievable that every villain wants to see the world end. Like we just had endgame come out a couple years ago, do I really think Christian bale is gonna succeed for a second in a random Thor sequel? No, because in my brain I’m like well what the fuck are the eternals gonna do then?
I don’t think overshadowing the main villain of the entire first 3 phases would’ve been enjoyable the finality of endgame was what made it brilliant having it be overshadowed by a larger threat would’ve been a huge mistake especially with all the characters that were taken out and their huge importance to the marvel universe
I think the way they 'should' have done it is at the post credits for endgame simply having Kang watching a feed of what's happening in Chronopolis. Seeing Thanos saying he's inevitable then simply laughing, and cut.
Introducing the next villain early is a great move, having them be bigger than Thanos is not. In fact they kind of did it with Wanda. Having the next villain be a threat of a very different nature is a great idea, they just killed her off in the first movie that she's villainous in. Or maybe they didn't and she'll return to be the Big Bad. Remember, we Never Saw The Body...
i recently started catching up on all the marvel projects i missed and holy shit it was rough. not only because i missed so much, but because all of the projects were sooooo bad and didnt seem to be going anywhere. it feels like homework trying to keep up with everything and if you don’t watch one show or movie, you won’t understand some other projects.
Too many branches going in completely separate ways. These new characters need to be connected more to each other. One movie should affect the next and work toward something but it just doesnt feel like theyre in the same universe
I think it's okay to have some projects that don't really tie into the current MCU like Moon Knight, but when everything's like that it just feels disconnected.
@@timotheninja In Moon Night the night's sky was reversed for tens of millions of people... no one in any other project ever even mentioned it. In Eternals a celestial was half-birthed from the planet and it was mentioned once in a later project as a joke. When you have a connected universe, then these big planetary things need to actually be referenced by others, otherwise it's not really a conencted universe except as pure convenience to the writers.
They either needed to find a way to tone things down and make it so it was actually possible for the movies to interlock in a reasonable way. I mean, Eternals literally had an avengers level threat that would warrant EVERY single marvel character coming to fight the issue in some kind of way. Which was obviously not going to happen. Maybe the Eternals could've been on another planet, or something of the sort. Or they needed to separate the characters from each other so they could exist in their own universes. That way, the Eternals could fight their world ending threat without having to question why aren't any of the other capable avengers and characters coming to help. The marvel universe has gotten too big for itself to be self-consistent with itself anymore, especially with the rate at which they were pumping out movies and shows. So I think it would've been cool if they had somehow separated the stories into their own universes/timelines.
I really miss a more in-depth view of how society was during the Blip, kinda like the TV show The Leftovers. While The Falcon and the Winter Soldier does mention some stuff, it's clear that a lot of stuff was left in the cutting room floor during the reshoots.
The reason why Falcon & Winter Soldier's stuff left on the cutting room floor is - very likely ( as in, not explicitly confirmed, but everything points to it) - that the Flagsmashers plot was going to be heavily focused on a pandemic largely focusing on those who came back from the blip and didn't have any developed natural immunity built up to said virus, causing it to return and mutate into something much more deadly. Which is why they were stealing medical supplies and crying over sick people in the 1st one or two episodes before the show proceeds to ignore anything like that in the rest of the series. Reasons for potentially cutting this aspect of the plot and haphazardly changing the motivation for the terrorists would be because COVID.
I feel like Far From Home did a great job following up the Blip. The Home films have always felt like that to me, extremely "homey" and down to earth, like a friendly neighborhood. Spider-Man in the MCU gets a lot of shit but i feel his films are really unique and filled with a lot of style that you don't see often in the MCU, especially Homecoming and No Way Home. Homecoming has my personal favorite "look" into the MCU world as it allows us to see how the _people_ think of the heroes, from kids looking up to them, to having crushes on them, to having their jobs/lives ruined by them, etc. Peters personal battle with wanting to be part of the big leagues was always cool to me too.
I’ve felt this way since after endgame. Didn’t know how to describe it, but this sums it up perfectly for me. I still like the current marvel projects, but many don’t seem to be as good as the original 20+. I still have hope, and hope it does all come together somehow
Phase 4 feels like like the side quest after you finish the main levels in a game
And you realise you really should have played them before the final mission
It's funny, I remember some reddit forums back in 2015 that WANTED that. I feel like if there was more character crossover within Phase 4 (Wong was great), the phase could have functioned better as the gap phase they wanted
that’s exactly what it feels like
Lol yes, after game content
DLC
I've never missed an MCU movie in my life... but then suddenly during Phase 4 I missed several. It was getting hard to keep up with shows and movies all while Disney was trying to sell me their product over and over and over again.
This.
Same here the 1st 3 phases were magic. I wish we could go back to that. Sadly I don't see it happening
If it was good content, I wouldn’t even mind. But I’m not spending money on political propaganda.
Think of them like the comicbooks they bring to the screen. It is unrealistic to try to collect every single edition of a comic series unless you are extremely dedicated, have lots of money to spare, and are a hardcore fan. We're now at the point where you just grab the edition you think "oh that looks interesting, let's see," and leave it at that.
@@noseriouslyimserious4073 facts though. Thor, Dr strange, and a lot of these shows have woke crap and i hate it. I want to watch a show or movie to not think about the world you know?
It’s almost as if a story should end
As long as Disney can keep making money out of it, it won't though. Star Wars is well enough an example of that
The mcu never ends. Marvel started back in 1939 and is still going. So why should the MCU stop?
Stop overreacting lol. This is literally phase 1 with some Multiversal BS we know fxck about!
Maybe it's a thing when you want to introduce and building up to Multiversal War by plotting every movie with its variance and stories for each. The downside is, yeah it's right, I feel they rush it too much. Secret Wars confirmed to be released in 3 years time like the hell?
Excited for what's to come for them but it won't surprise me if they fail to fill in Infinity War's shoes.
@@alfxbmsyah if they took it slow we would die before they release all the movies
To be fair, the story did end.
The problem here is that they then didn't make a new one.
We basically traded a longform story for an anthology book and, when the short stories in the anthology book are this hit or miss, it's just not worth investing the energy into it as an audience member.
The MCU was propped up by the crazy chemistry and charisma of Robert Downey Jr, Chris Evans, Chris Hemsworth, Scarlett Johansen and Mark Ruffalo. The new group don't mix well
Damn, letting Jeremy Renner out in the rain I see
Definitely not Scarlett. Nothing more then eye candy since black widow was by far the least powerful member....Idc about the comic lore that idk about...just the movies....widow literally added 0 moments or care for me. Sorry if I'm lacking a heart for anyone reading.
@@Maradala Hoenstly I kind of agree, I was mainly there for Ironman and Capt America, Thor (the character) was good, Hulk was good but less than thor and yea, that's all I really cared about. Nick Fury was also kind of interesting tbh, I will exclude SI, that is fanfic to my eyes (never watched it and never will)
It’s a superhero movie there are going to be e battles. Wanda Vision was really good. They needed to establish how powerful she is
Losing Chadwick Boseman unexpectedly was a major blow as well.
My two biggest gripes are:
-Shoving jokes in every other line. Everyone tried to have the same snarky sense of humor as Joss Whedon, it's played out
-They keep trying to end the world and it's lowered the stakes. Eternals, Moon Knight, Ms Marvel... no, they're not gonna end the world in a D+ show, or in the movie right after Endgame. Come on.
Also Loki singlehandedly destroyed every movie and TV show in the MCU that came before it with it's "we maintain the sacred timeline" bullshit, because that one thing invalidates EVERYTHING that's happened up until now.
Every single victory, defeat, sacrifice, hard choice and effort that all the characters have done was just some dude in his ivory tower deciding how things would go.
Way to kill your entire cinematic universe's re-watchability in one fell swoop.
One of my main gripes is: Taika Waititi.
No the issue is SJW .. and wannabe strong independent woman in movies
These issues existed even before Endgame lol.
@@carljohan9265 Speak for yourself lmao. I can easily enjoy rewatching classics like Iron Man 1. Just like how I can enjoy rewatching the original Star Wars Trilogy or Pre-Timeless Child Retcon Doctor Who.
Phase 4 feels like an AI trying to continue a song beyond the ending
Wow, what an astute observation.
Like continuing an open-world game just to get all the side-quests completed when you have already finished the main story.
I’ve been searching for the words to explain how I feel after end game for years and this is it
If She-Hulk, dare I say, is MCU canon, that’s exactly what’s happening in universe
perfect analogy
As much as I miss Gravity Falls. I love the decision to actually just end the story instead of drag it out like Marvel is doing.
As much as id love to see another season, I know damn well it could never hold a candle to the original show.
Phineas and Ferb is coming back for 1-2 more seasons. I wonder how that will play out.
@@phoenixmorphix If it’s still Dan Povenmire and Jeff Marsh, it’ll probably still be good
Marvel is dragging out anything.. they have 80+ years worth of content to work with. They only issue they have it they're worried more about quantity over quality now
I was devastated when I found there wasn’t gonna be a third season, but I agree. I wouldn’t want it to get so drawn out to the point where it’s more confusing and there’s too much going on
I’ve always felt that Marvel Studios should’ve taken a long break after Endgame to just bask in what a massive accomplishment that was but also to really sit down and meticulously plan their next steps. I’ve found recent Marvel stuff to be entertaining but not having that sense of cohesion that the Infinity Saga had. Directionless fun is entertaining but directionless nonetheless. Also the amount of TV shows has hurt them in my eyes. I feel that WandaVision and Loki were bangers but everything else after that has been dull fun. This was a really solid video 🔥🔥🔥
This honestly should be the standard. We could've gotten something cool.
Agreed but nooooo they gotta keep up to date with cash grabs 🙈
YES, THIS
Moon knight slapped tho
But Falcon and WS suuuuucked
I just feel so exhausted from this phase that it has drove me to genuinely not care any more.
exactly. and every now and then you find out there is another series or movie that fits into the story that came out and you missed it because of sheer volume of all the stuff
Yes! Back when it was just 2-3 movies a year, there was enough space between each new release to give us a bit of a break and build anticipation for the next movie. This year there's been something new almost every month (I think, I haven't been keeping track).
Ok. Ur problem
Yes I agree, I’ll probably give some things a try but I most likely won’t finish every show or watch every movie unless I’m insanely bored and even then I’m discovering more movies than ever before that are much better
@@ScoobyandShaggy5554 ur loss bud
Phase 4 feels like watching a filler episode on a tv show.
It feels like a whole filler season until they finally willing to commit to some higher stakes.
@@ExeErdna Just like everything Disney owns right now... I don't think any of them even know what their higher stakes are right now. It is just filler just to make money.
nailed it. Feels like an episode you can skip
But not every comic is like endgame. They need smaller scale stories. If you don’t like it just come Back when the stakes are higher.
@@justice_productions_ smaller stories like the Eternals or Love and Blunder? These films are borderline unwatchable. Love and Blunder felt worse than an episode of Two Broke Girls minus the laugh track. Try watching The Boys instead it makes the MCU look like a joke in comparison.
My biggest problem is how the raising stakes make endgame seem almost irrelevant
I mean…thats comics in general
I don't think there is anything inherently bad with having Higher stakes than Endgame
But the problem is that there are multiple high stakes which only happen in one specific story and not felt on the others
It's like they are separate worlds that have 0 connections with each other
Making it feel more like a barrage of movies and stories instead of one sing Universe that all characters live in
So dragon ball z?
True. Phase 4 really should have been a time to ramp the stakes back down (kinda like in Falcon and Winter Soldier) before ramping them back up near the end of phase 4 and into phase 5 and 6.
I’m very confused at how no one else has felt the effects of the ending events of Loki
Problem is after Endgame MCU clearly has no plan and just releases random stuff using established characters name to milk this thing
Welp now they have a plan
@@operationblackout5655what’s the plan ?
@@prince-bm4xtsecret wars
They had a plan, not a good one, but a plan. The downside was, they had a lead villain that they had to write out to save face.
Their movies went from mostly being action adventures with some comedy and comedic characters that fit their personality into every movie being a comedy with some action adventure, and every character trying to have a stand up routine in every scene
Marvel's been like that since the original Avengers.
That’s only Thor 4
@@john_smith_john They always had humor in their movies before, but I feel it's gotten worse since the release of Guardians of the Galaxy and then Deadpool. It's like they tried switching to full comedy and it worked so well (in the money department) all the movies now just have to be the same. Like they're all just part of an episodic series with just a bunch of forced jokes in between exposition and some colorful effects here and there.
Its literally a FILLER
Thor Love & Thunder was so fucking absurd that the only way I could justify it being like that, was imagining that the entire thing was a movie of Korg telling us how things happened and embellishing it to the point of madness. It honestly felt like a complete parody of reality, like an Abridged Series of the real movie. I kept expecting the film to cut off and reveal a bunch of people sitting around a table with Korg, and then asking him if he was serious about Thor giving the kids his powers somehow and one of them wielding a goddamn lightning teddy bear. I was waiting for a punchline, but it never came.
Disney tried to make Star Wars fit into the MCU mold, when it was Star Wars (particularly under George Lucas’ care) that had the more important lesson: take your time to craft the story of each episodic film and then take a necessary break in between trilogy sagas (it doesn’t always have to be a 10-16 year hiatus, but it’s painfully obvious when the creative team hasn’t taken a necessary sabbatical: “Somehow, Palpatine returned”).
Also, the MCU has been primarily created and envisioned like this from the beginning, something that can't be said for Star Wars. Many other movie studios have tried to apply the "MCU mold" to their properties and have failed tremendously at doing so. Even DC, a company that is of very similar nature to that of Marvel's, is still trying to understand how to make their cinematic universe work. Thing is, not everything needs to be a cinematic universe -- certainly not Star Wars.
Don't these writers have experts who know these universes on board?
@@TekkLuthor They do--but their comments don't mean jack when the directors/writers can do almost whatever they want. For better or worse, even Dave Filoni has retconned SW lore (some were even Disney canon) if he feels like self-inserting his own characters.
I don't agree. I think the lesson from both Star Wars and the MCU is "commit to new characters and new stories," a lesson it's incredibly hard to accept, when the shiny lure of beloved old characters dangles like the promise of gold. The theory is that fans love Star Wars and Marvel for the characters they know. But what made those characters great was the experience of being introduced to them, falling in love with them, and then seeing them reach a satisfying conclusion. When you bring them back, that satisfaction gets complicated. You're inevitably messing with what people liked about them. You have to, because if you don't, the characters become static. We love all these characters because we watched them become what they are. We don't necessarily want them to become something else. And we don't necessarily want complications to the story of how they became who they are.
So I think what's dragging both Star Wars and the MCU down is the erroneous assumption that it's the specific characters that made it what it is, rather than the thrill of living in this magical world of potential. Star Wars suffers the most when it trots out beloved old characters and trues to resell them to us. It succeeds when it introduces new characters, From Finn, Rey, and Kylo to Din Jarin and What's-His-Name from this new Andor show people seem to love (haven't seen it yet, but I see the fan response whether I want to or not). It's when they try to repackage Boba Fett and Obi-Wan that they get bogged down.
With the MCU, they can't seem to commit to new characters without trying to prop them up on old characters' shoulders, with diminishing results. Of course, the MCU also seems to have a cookie-cutter problem, demanding every character follow a formula rather then letting them tell their own story. You can see in every new Marvel film a strong character imprisoned in a rote plot that has little to do with who they actually are, and the kind of story they actually want to tell. Shang-Chi was great for the first seven minutes, and the final three, but in between, a long, tiresome, overdeveloped backstory hijacked the plot away from who the character actually is in the here and now, to tell the dull story of how he fits into the overstuffed, under-cooked mystical side of the Marvel universe.
The problem with both, as I see it, is the problem of serving the universe instead of the story, trying to appeal to what fans responded to in the past rather than risk creating something new. It's a shame, because what built that fan base in the first place was creating something new. Movies aren't Coca-Cola. You can't sell the same one over and over again forever. You can't sell the new one entirely on what people liked about the last one. The more they do that, the less effective it is.
@@rottensquid Great points. I finished Cyberpunk: Edgerunners recently, and I think it's a perfect example of your points.
I went into it not knowing one thing about its universe or preestablished lore (other than the relentless memes mocking 2077). Despite all that, Edgerunners's 10 episodes managed to make me connect and care more about its universe and (most of) the characters.
Can't say the same for MCU Phase 4. I even grew up with the very start of the MCU and have read the comics from when I was a little kid. So many of the MCU characters feel like a version of diet Tony Stark. They don't feel like actual characters.
Going to go the opposite direction, but Shang-Chi was the closest to hitting a home run for me. First 2/3 of it was going well, but I'm disappointed they decided to throw the boring demon, dragon, kaiju, whatever thing fight at the end. Felt like the creators didn't have the confidence to write a strong story between the conflict with the dad and son. And yeah, all the mysticism stuff felt pretty shoehorned in and bloated; probably would've worked out stronger if they decided to lean into it in the sequel.
One of the main things that drew me in to the early movies is that they took themselves seriously. Whereas now every movie is trying to have all the same comedic relief that was in the original Iron Man movies, but that was what made THAT character good, not every character needs that. If they cut back 85% of comedic relief the new movies would be a lot better.
I felt this especially when watching Thor:Ragnarok it made me cringe......
Gotta reel in the normies
@@lisalamba560right? It was supposed to be dark and the end of the city and their species and they threw a cringe joke every couple of minutes, it was so awful, love and thunder wasn’t much better either
@@victordavalos246Love and Thunder wasn't better at all. Ragnarok is a superior film
@@jasonnelson9141yeah, ragnarok was the best of all the thor movies imo. idk what they yappin bout lmao
When I finished The Infinity Saga, I remembered every single thing that happened in each movie. When I finished The Multiverse Saga, I couldn’t remember a thing.
Besides No Way Home.
@@justaman9724& Loki
@@justaman9724 No idea how they managed to pull off No Way Home but I am very glad they did.
@@sfurulesit was definitely the cameos that carried
@@sfurulesit wasn’t even that good
In my head, I like to imagine a world where the MCU ended with Endgame
To me it ended with Infinity War
That's the world I live in. I watched the newest Thor and that was it. It was pretty meh
same, didnt even touched the stuff after that
Yeah i also think a lot of people got off the mcu train after endgame. It was nice closure for everyone that grew up watching the original 6 avengers. Natasha and tony die saving the universe, hulk is basically retired after losing an arm and hawkeye retires to live with his family, steve goes back in time to live the rest of his life with peggy, and Thor only one who is basically immortal overcame his depression after infinity war and is ready to move to a new chapter of his life after giving the title of queen of asgard to valkyrie and leaving with the guardians in search for a new chapter in his life.
Its literally the best ending for everyone who has been following the mcu since its early years. All the ogs are either dead or retired and the world is safe knowing they left a new generation of heroes to replace them.
All of these new mcu projects (i do mean all of them) feel rushed. unlike the 1 phase of the mcu, where even if some of the movies dragged a little they felt somewhat connected, ig its also because everything was happening on earth on a smaller scale.
It did
Trying to keep up with all the characters and plots has started to feel like homework.
Exaactlyy!
You’re just old
Pretty much lol
Which is why I don't bother with things like Eternals, she hulk, or ms marvel and will continue to do so
@@NorthernLaw_ ethernals is good
Keeping up with the MCU is starting to feel like a job, but I'm paying to do it. The moment you start to fall behind it's overwhelming to catch back up. I haven't seen many of the very newest shows or movies, and I'm not sure if I'll ever find the time
It's like trying to catch up to anime or any long ass show. Feels like a chore
Just read a synopsis on a show. It takes 5 minutes max. Im fully caught up and haven’t watched 90% of phase 4.
Same here, if feels like a never ending job.
Just let it go man...
Just watch the last episode of she hulk season 1 (of 1) and that’s all u need baby 😂😂😂
This video hits even harder after Quantumania
Ive been saying since the end of Endgame, the MCU would struggle to fill the void left by Tony Stark and Steve Rogers. They were the bedrock of the MCU and you can feel that something big is missing.
Its literally just phase 1 with introducing new characters and stories. Moving on from the old crew and building new worlds.
@@Kirasfox yeah, they are doing a shitty job at it. Thanks shehulk
@@Kirasfox it’s trash
@@Kirasfox the phase 1 stories were better
@@Kirasfox As robert said
It's trash
Doctor Who faced the same problem and has suffered for years. Once you have a universe-ending event every week, it gets tiring. We need low-key bad guys and less-severe stakes.
"Local neighbourhood Spiderman" anyone?
Exctly, when every movie or show has a possible world ending event, it just makes you not care about it anymore.
Thats true for so many series nowadays. the power scaling gets so ridiculous that you stop caring entirely
@@darrengordon-hill couldn't remember the word "friendly"?
Funnily enough this was also the reason to why my M&M ttrpg group decided to reset the universe.
My biggest problem is that there’s just too much of it. It used to be maybe we’d get 2-3 movies a year and that was it. That’s easy to follow. Plus, Agents of SHIELD eventually became its own fun thing with the movies in the background. But 3-4 movies and 6 shows all in a year? Yeah it’s too much. Maybe have 3 movies and 2 shows a year. That’s so much easier to deal with and would prevent the burnout we’re all experiencing.
I would much prefer more spaced movies but with good quality (and good cgi, which we lost). I hate that whole series thing. I hate watching series in general because it almost always end up being terrible.
@@jonathaningram8157 Honestly, I kind of agree. But maybe have a movie in February, May, and November with a show starting in June that ends in July and then another show in September that ends in October. That would be much more manageable. Three movies decently far apart from each other and the shows taking up the late summer-early fall mantle.
This only happened due to the pandemic. All the projects slated for 2020 came out in 2021, and some slated for 2021 came out in 2022. So 2021 actually had two years worth of content, which wasn't originally planned. In 2022 we got 3 movies and 3 series, and it will probably continue to be like that or even less in the following years.
3 movies and two shows sounds like a great balance.
@@masamune2984 It would also not put near as much stress on the poor CGI artists. Much less work on them too.
Discussion on Phase 4 shows feels incomplete without making comparisons to the MCU's prior shows such as Daredevil and what made those hit (or miss) when compared to say, She-Hulk
From high school to college to adult life, I really enjoyed everything up until endgame. It felt like the end of the wait I had as a child. Everything else now isn’t a question I wanted answered 😂
"Everything else now isn't a question I wanted answered." This sums up my point entirely. Well said.
I feel ya
Because it literally was the end of the Infinity Saga. The phase4 is not suppose to lick your phase 1 to 3 wounds.
Ahhh yes like the confirmation that Steve didn't die a virgin...when we all saw him go back to Peggy
Everything woke turns to crap
The problem with introducing already existing characters in phase 4 is they now always have to explain where tf they were when Thanos wiped out half the universe. It’s one of my big problems with The Eternals. So when they realized that the planets they are “helping” actually get destroyed and then they get their memory erased, suddenly they feel bad. But when Thanos wiped everyone out and the celestials told the eternals don’t get involved they were like “oh ok”.
I think that’s why they’re coming in with all this multiverse stuff. So they have a plausible reason why Professor X and Dr Doom haven’t been affecting the universe for the past decade. Honestly, I’m not crazy about going this route. It seems like pure fan service to just bring fully developed fan favourite characters into the MCU with a handwave.
This. I'm really over hearing about the blip and having 10-15 minutes taken to re-explain it to the audience
Yeah I guess, phase 4 is introducing new characters while trying to connect them to the previous movies?
This is explained in Eternals though: Thanos actually had a pretty big impact by giving Earth MORE time before hatching it’s Celestial, but that ultimately since the Eternals goal is just to ensure a Celestial hatches from its planet, Thanos doing something that postpones but does nothing to stop that cycle doesn’t actually effect them that much.
Tbh how much time would they even have to react? The entirety of Infinity War took place in a day and it took them like a week just to collect all of the eternals. They didnt know he was coming. The didnt know anything. I just wrote it off to the being suprised and not even able to reactas a team
My other issue with Phase 4 is the introduction of the multiverse. Where the Infinity Saga was so brilliant at weaving storylines together (all to the credit of the writers), now multiverses give the safety net of nostalgia and mulligans on story structure.
All while giving them the out of pulling a Crisis on Infinite Earths type multiverse collapse should it not work out without it breaking continuity.
@@tjenadonn6158 1:53 what movie is this
@@-chenlanying5818The Dark Knight
@@-chenlanying5818The Dark Knight, one of the best comic book movies of all time
@@-chenlanying5818 One of the Batman movies
My favorite Marvel project since EndGame has been Guardians Of The Galaxy 3 - great bit of story telling!
Same! I also think that was because I was actually filmed before Marvel staring going downhill. It was filmed when they made good content. Lol.
GotG 3 and Shang Chi delivered for me. Not much else has.
No way home too
Yeah, it was blatant fanservice with the other Spidermen, but this was one serviced fan
I really liked Wakanda Forever too
@@lostvarius did you? or are you just trying to convince black people youre not racist?
I drew the line at Endgame. I’ve even found myself doing the unthinkable and missing numerous Phase 4 films and am not invested in their characters any where near as much as pre Endgame Marvel films.
Same. I've skipped on several of the Disney+ shows and have no intention on seeing them. There doesn't seem to be any cohesive and well thought plan for the MCU like everything pre-Endgame. It all feels very much like a greedy cash-grab to pump out as much content as possible with very little reverence for the source material or telling quality stories. Sad.
I also stopped after Endgame, which itself was very flawed. Too much, too big, too many moving parts.
It's the problem with the source material, comics. It's hard to tell a continuous story with tight continuity when you keep expanding the list of characters, worlds, stories, timelines, etc.
@@apostolostvable I also felt that Endgame was very flawed and oddly rushed. They had been planning it for years and it seemed like they still couldn't quite figure out how to make the time travel thing make sense and not be full of plot holes. Peggy Carter suddenly being Steve's reason for being felt weird too. Makes me think the original draft had him dying like Tony and they took a left turn suddenly and needed a way to retire the character without killing him and just inserted Peggy back in. It was odd to me.
I agree but spider man no way home was still very good
@@ScarletVoodoo it’s not that they couldn’t figure out how to make time travel work, it’s that time travel was like the only thing that could undo the stakes of infinity war and they found a way to make that into a clip show to bait fans
what strikes me as odd is.. phase 3 already felt like it was introducing the new generation
but then phase 4 has been introducing an even NEWER generation; multiple new generations and teams.. and we're just holding out and waiting for those teams to form
those young avengers won't be so young anymore by the time they put that team together lol
I feel like the first wave of films were 95% story and 5% set-up for future stories. So the set-up was extra exciting because it was so sparse, and people talked about it as much as the stories. The problem is, the set-up part of these movies isn't actually the content, it's just the promise of content. in tiny doses, it's wonderful. But when producers think we're more interested in set-up than story, the promise of the next story begins to replace the content of this one.
It's like if every cereal box contained an empty cereal bowl, with an add at the bottom telling us about the next exciting marshmallow flavor sensation I can one day eat out of it. That's fun, except I just payed the same price for half the cereal and promotion for the next cereal, which I many not even be interested in.
i disagree..they're building the premise to introduce everything all at once.
@@samuraipizzacat5586 no
@@rottensquid Agreed. It was more focused on the story at hand, while laying a foundation little by little for future projects. Now it feels like mostly setup and very little payoff so far.
@@xnortheast1106 bet
Didn't know it, but I watched to hear this line: "Without that discussion, these projects stop being stories that impact culture, and instead become … content-a momentary distraction before ushering the audience along to the next attraction." Brilliant and necessary POV on not just the MCU but "content" in general.
Yep that line was exactly it
I mean you can tell it's just "content" when you see how many bad jokes they throw in the movies now.
Not only infinity stone, there are thing like shield and vibranium which glued every story together.
The problem with the current state of the MCU is that it has become a convulated self-aware satient being. The She-Hulk finale is a testament to that. Instead of writing compelling and well connected stories, the MCU has become a conduit of fan service with social comentaries, cameos and breaking the fourth wall anticts. The strength of the MCU was in the interconnection of stories and characters, not characters mentioning other characters. Actually the Loki finale was great and the consequences should have been felt in the movies that followed after. Spiderman breaking the multiverse should have been the result of Loki's actions. Dr Strange into the Multiverse of Madness should have been as a result of Spiderman's actions. Wanda should have been manipulated by a Kang variant to cause shenanigans all over the multiverse. The Gods in Moonknight should have imprisoned a Kang Variant Rama-Tut. Gorr The God Butcher should have killed a lot of gods including many from the pantheon of Gods in Moonkight setting a Kang variant Rama-Tut free and causing Bastet the panther god into exile. This weakens the strength of Wakanda and T'challa dies, then the events of Wakanda Forever play out. These events do not even need to be on the screen they can just play out in the background and ateast show that there is a direction and connection going forward to Avengers Kang Dynasty. You will have multiple Kangs roaming the Multiverse and no one knows which Kang or Kangs pop-up in Antman Quantumania. Instead the MCU has a lot of different stories with loose ends and end credits scenes that will be explained by a random person in an MCU TV show as a by-the-way comment rendering the whole scene obsolete.
YES
damn. they should had hire you to write the next mcu phase. the way you describe in few sentences how all of the stories could built up on each other makes more sence than what we have right now
Although I enjoyed all the phase 4 content, I would KILL to see them do this direction instead
Fucking conservatives.
This comment is underatter, bro you just wrote a whole a whole story. Idk how much time you spend writing this but I can tell you put a lot of time and thought and your are one hella of a creative and visionary peroson
Endgame was the ending and Far From Home & No Way Home was the after credits scene as far as I'm concerned.
Exactly.
I consider No Way Home to be Phase 3, lol.
@Ieat10kittens it was ready written out, just like pretty much the whole of the MCU for phase 3 Before this SJW nonsense destroyed cinema. Hollywood is just detached from reality and looked to Twitter for ideas thinking that was the actual direction culture was going when in reality people were tired of the behaviors on display at Twitter. So much so that the richest redditor of them all bought it just to shut that shit down.
@ieat10kittens94 lol that’s a good way of putting it. It wasn’t a terrible movie so it can’t be phase 4
FFF was a lame epilogue, and NWH was totally unnecesary (if you consider that Endgame was the true ending)
Not watching Marvel after Endgame is like playing a tutorial and thinking the Game is over...
I always felt like they should have stopped or at least take a considerable break after 'Endgame'.
That was such an impressive end, but, they didn't even let it breathe.
yeah, covid also was kind of perfect timing for this. if they had waited a couple or even a few years to release everything that takes place afterward, it would have left people wanting for more of that familiar marvel consistency, instead of feeling smothered. a longer pause would have also let them develop phase 4 stories more, i think they could have tried to fix a lot of the problems if they wanted to but instead chose to fall back on the reliability of loyal fans and such
@@JaviBee Exactly.
Because it’s not the end. Steve Rogers and Tony stark are NOT the base of marvel. Get the fuck over it
@@Lovemetender757 You dropped your napkin.
Yup. That’s exactly how I feel. It peaked at Endgame, but rather than let the achievement stand on its own for a half minute, they felt like they had to drown us in a litany of mediocre Phase 4 content in this seemingly desperate attempt to keep the momentum going.
That’s why at the end of the day I decided to buy the infinity saga box set. Yeah, it was a lot of money, but to me at least it was worth investing in it as the MCU that I want to remember.
So true about the heroes only sticking to the conflicts created in their stories. It feels like marvel makes a whole story around a villain only for that villain to be destroyed or killed in the end
I actually thought Endgame struggled and the big fight at the end bumped it up alot, the MCU peaked at infinity war for me
Underrated comment, endgame was emotionally the movie we’ve all been waiting for and a cry because we knew it was no good ending. But as far as plot, movie & overall masterpiece Infinity War is the best movie made this century.
@@ramonmabry Oh man. Infinity War is a great superhero movie. It is not the best movie made this century, it’s not even the best movie released in 2018. 😂
@@ramonmabry Best movie made this century? I just gagged in my mouth reading that. Wow. Can't expect too much from a marvel fan though.
@@oscaraltman8122 gotta agree with this, you had Hereditary and Annihilation to contend with. Honestly I love Infinity War, but Vice takes the win for me.
@@cowtowncaptain7649 Have you seen The Ballad of Buster Scruggs? Amazing western anthology from 2018 with the incredibly talented Tim Blake Nelson, check it out!
Using moneyball as a way to explain marvelball was genius and incredibly well written/spoken.
Here to comment this. Brilliant.
Agreed. That part was more well written than anything in farce 4.
Yeah it was depressing but incredibly effective
Yeah that was actually pretty good and I like that
@@carloscortes1577 ok
You bring up something that I've sincerely been annoyed by, and it's the fact that it feels like Phase 4 wasn't planned. It feels like they intentionally plotted out everything up to phase 3 and realized they were making so much money that there was no way they could stop. Except now things are being whipped off the cuff while they try and figure out how it's all going to come together.
Did you know “Dr Strange Multiverse”was supposed to come out before “Spiderman No way Home”? That’s the reason the movie feels slightly off in regards to plot points. COVID threw everything for a loop but Marvel couldn’t adapt tbh.
Nothing is going to "come together". They can't bring all this crap together because it would be utter sht.
Thats it, they dont wanna spend time planning everything anymore, if anything goes wrong, they will use multiverse as excuse to undo
Disney bought it
@@tableswithoutchairs1168 in 2009
Ironically, the release of the moneyball book and subsequent movie got almost every other team in the mlb to use its strategies as a status quo. Ever since, the A’s have been a laughing stock team once again, and I think that’s a pretty telling part of the analogy you used it for
Hate to reply 10 months later, but this isn't necessarily true.
They are a laughing stock in recent memory (2022-present), but the A's strung together multiple successful seasons & made the playoffs in the 2010s with the same guy from the movie, Billy Beane, and the same small budget.
Three straight playoff appearances from 2012 - 2014, then three straight from 2018-2020
I think another thing about keeping stories all set to come together is it helps audiences keep track of what's going on. Between all the shows and movies, I can't remember much about stakes, villains, or even some entire characters. Besides, it feels like the shows don't matter - Wandavision was about her grief hurting others, and she realized that was wrong. She decided to deal with it in a healthier way. Multiverse of Madness - screw all that, now she doesn't care who dies
Yup, all continuity is just out of the window. That goes for character motivations, just like you said, but also for power levels. One movie they are fighting intergalactic threats, then in the next movie they struggle with some random local villains... makes no sense.
When watching MoM, I thought "This makes almost no sense if you haven't watched WandaVision. But if you HAVE watched WandaVision, it repeats the same story in a more cartoonish and less nuanced way." Wanda's villainous (although restrained) acts in WandaVision due to her grief for Vision made sense, while her mass-murdering people to have extra health insurance for a couple of kids that just popped into existence seemed over the top to me.
Lmao, *did* you watch WV? It ends with her reading the Dark Hold in search of her kids. She absolutely does *not* choose a healthy way of dealing. She is literally forced to let down the hex and then flees into isolation. Not healthy at all.
@@brianb-t4v This is exactly the point. Not everyone watched WV. How were we supposed to know that and watch an actual film having that in mind? Like he mentioned, it’s a lack of cohesion.
@@azathothdaemonsultan666 feels like a comics holdover to me. There were always story arcs in comics that crossed over multiple publications (like, say, a villain built up in a X-Men related comic that then faces the Avengers in full form) and if you wanted the full story you’d have to read comics you normally wouldn’t or just get enough context sticking with your usual comics to get most of the plot.
I didn’t love every D+ show, but I watched all of them because I’ll know they’ll at least tangentially relate to future films.
Phase 1-3 I watched most films on opening night, the characters they created felt special and they gave us reasons to care for them. Now a days there's just too much going on. They pump out more and more stories and characters and don't give them the time to develop or for us to form a connection with. Those connections are the reasons that made Tony's death so painful, its what made Steve's Endgame scene so powerful to us as the viewers. They need to slow down and let us develop these connections to the new characters and the new stories that they want to tell.
I feel like phase four took a DC approach to things
WRONG, these characters have only had 1 movie as they were introductions, all phase 1 characters the og had SEVERAL MOVIES TO get introduced and get development for 3 whole phases and lastly Kang is the villain of this as we going towards cosmic entities and everything around this as phase 5 will definitely be mutants as soon as their contracts end in 2025
@@vispiralgamingiv8462 no. Civil war introduced spiderman and black panther. Ant-man only had a single movie before the team up as did vision and Wanda. No one felt it was jarring when watching civil war. The amount of times you see the characters isn’t the problem. The problem is that these shows and movies just aren’t very good. The quantity has gone up but the writing for these stories has gone down. I watched the first 3 shows and haven’t bothered with anymore except spiderman and shangchi. The content is just bad. Audience retention is hanging on by a thread because they’re waiting for end game magic to happen again. People don’t wanna watch 10 mediocre shows to know what all the characters are up to
@@vispiralgamingiv8462 WRONG
@@supermelonbread The connection people have to iron man, Thor, and captain America is a lot stronger than ant man, spiderman, or black panther. Why? Because they had movies detailing their backgrounds, which is exactly what the guy was saying.
You can't use the characters you are trying to use to prove your point, they are the exceptions. They are the ones people don't graduate towards.
Spiderman is a weird one, however. He has many movies prior to the team up, just with different actors and a different studio. So, some people really connect with him while some don't.
in a normal world endgame would have been the END, but we knew that was never going to happen
This is such a dumb talking point, should the comics have ended after the first big event.
@@aspacelex surely comic books are consumed differently though and appeal to a less broad audience
you gotta milk the cow until everyone end up hating it.
It would have been a perfect ending but I don't agree, I think what they should have done was not release anything new unless it was up to the standard of Phase 3.
I'm glad that world isn't this one. Imagine a world without the brilliant planning and storytelling of MCU. Such a loss.
Watching this nearly 2 years later, it is so refreshing to see that Marvel is finally pointing itself in one direction. For the first time since Endgame, it is clear as to where we are going. We have left the Avengers behind and are now entering the era of the X-men and Fantastic 4.
My main two problems with the MCU nowadays are that it feels bloated and that everything had built up to Endgame. That’s what I had invested my time into. I feel what they managed to pull off with the infinity saga just can’t be replicated.
Let's hope they can atleast mimic some of its success with the introduction of Mutants, Fantastic 4 and Doctor Doom
It’s like none of u saw the phase 5 line up. Phase 6 alone is gonna shit on endgame and infinity war and phase 1,2&3 combined.
@@josuafraser4865 Yeah? At the rate they're going I wouldn't be surprised if it was mostly mid.
@@josuafraser4865 they can have a great line up and still have meh / bad movies, which has been most phase 4 content so far (imo moon knight was the only thing that felt just as good as pre phase 4)
@@ConcealedWeaponry at this rate I wouldn't be surprised if most people stopped watching
I saw almost every single movie before Endgame, and I was so deeply satisfied with Endgame as an ending that I decided then and there that I wouldn't watch another.
Every discussion I have seen since makes it seem like the right choice.
literally same
I watched the first few series/movies after endgame and I was disappointed with every single one. After that I said I would only watch the things that genuinely interested me. Almost every piece of media seems disconnected or has major flaws that cannot be ignored. I think y’all made the best choice lmao
They can't do anything except raise the stakes higher and higher. So where do they go after the entire universe is threatened? The multiverse of course, but it just doesnt hit the same now.
You’re missing out on skipping WandaVision. Very solid piece of storytelling with fantastic acting and the humor didn’t feel of place given the sitcom nature.
No Way Home is easily worth watching.
I’m still mad at the ending of The Eternals. They revealed of the unimaginable size of a celestial and how insignificant earth is in comparison to them, and all it did was fetch the Eternals and leave. Not a single mention afterwards of it, or the massive statue that appeared in the middle of the ocean, even though an event like that would be world changing. Such a cool reveal with so many implications and possible characters reactions wasted on literally nothing
That's the problem with a lot of phase 4. There are a lot of major events happening but none of them feel like they have any lasting impact on the overall narrative, and it's not like you can say it's because they just want to be their own thing because these next phases of films hav been marketed as the multiverse saga
100%
@@kbreezy1581 kang.
@@kbreezy1581 half the universe was snapped out and snapped back into existence, superhumans and aliens and gods and magic were all revealed to exist, I don’t think a giant celestial would cause as much panic in their world as you think it would. especially since he didn’t really do anything and just disappeared shortly after.
The ending of Moon Knight had the entire world getting slaughtered by an Egyptian deity judging humanity for future crimes and no one cared. Not a single reference to this event after Moon Knight at all. How tf is that even possible?
I don't think Marvel will ever achieve what they did with the Infinity Saga. We were so invested in the characters. I always go back and look at the movie theater reactions of Endgame and still get goosebumps.
I love how you completely forgot about Captain Marvel. Because I certainly have.
Charisma void Carol Danvers.
Okay no one else is really saying it but the way you compared the MCU too MoneyBall was really clever. I’m gonna subscribe just for how well put together this video is.
He got you too lol
Me too! I’m definitely subbing and watching the other videos.
*one week later* ...oh I get it! Because money
Meanwhile Phase 4 feels like Brooklyn Nets at the moment LOL No cohesion whatsoever
If Marvel was the '02 A's, DC is the '22 Angels- constantly tripping over itself and wasting the careers of two Hall of Fame players.
There was a time and a place for Marvel MCU films. They won’t be around forever, and it reflects on what people wanted at the time. There will be another movement in media that will define future decades to come. The problem with many stories is that they don’t know when to say: “The End”, and “They all lived happily ever after”; having a conclusion that stays concluded is a powerful message.
thank you for validating the disappointment I’ve felt for so long but not been able to put into words!
One of the core problems is also definitely that they lost their two keypieces, which they failed to replace.
Dr. strange seemed so promising but has been so disappointing in this phase. If his character had been well used he could be a good keypiece for this phase
@@igorporfiirio4915 True, I thought his character could also carry the franchise like Iron man or Captain America. He definetly has the charisma. Not so sure why it doenst work. Maybe he works best as (extremely cool) sidekick character that shows up once in a while. Maybe hes abit too stoic or overpowered dunno.
@@joerileijdsman3279 ii jus think they don’t do enough with him. His powers in Infinity War were really cool but in his newest movie he really only does 3 things. The music scene was kinda cool, thats it really
@@joerileijdsman3279 the problem with him is that he doesnt take the lead. Iron man and Captain America took the initiative in being a leader they competed with each other as rival leaders, but also friends and allies as seen in Avengers and Civil war. They had greatly differing ideas on how to handle things, but had matching charisma so the audience grew attached to both of them.
but Strange doesnt do that. He “mysteriously” does fuck-all before spider man or thor solves the problem for him. He “strangely” lacks a personality outside of freaky wizard magic. He has been very underdeveloped since infinity war.
@@joerileijdsman3279 I think this hits the nail on the head. Even in the comics, Strange was never the "hero" character. He was always the cool mysterious guy who the actual hero calls up to help. And I think that's how he shines best.
I think the problem is simpler: the initial phases started with being grounded in reality and built to a cosmic, ultimate stakes conclusion. In phase 4, they seem to be trying to top that - now building from something already fantastical and outlandish and getting ever more so - which makes keeping things relatable on a human level very hard. I think a better strategy would have been to “get back down to earth”; focus initially on the street level heros whose lives are more similar to our own, building empathy with the characters we’re supposed to care about. The big stories about timelines and multiverses can come, but you must first make care about the characters again. So tl:dr: it’s a all a bit too much.
It really does feel like an anime where the "power levels" have grown over time, and now we have villains who can blow up entire universes, so where the heck do you go from there? You can't.
I think that’s why I’m so excited for the next Spider-Man. The new suit and new scenario seems to be like they’re trying to introduce the classic Spider-Man story: Peter Parker has a life trying to get into education, paying rent, and balancing all that with being Spider-Man.
That's why I actually liked Hawkeye.
The different timelines really throw things off. It’s too much.
Yes 100% you've put this really well, this is why they've struggled.
That's why I thought Falcon & Winter Soldier was quite good, it was smaller scale & real world.
Surprise villains can be fine, but in my opinion, the pay off with them is never the surprise, but having a moment where everything "clicks". Where a lot of things make sense in hindsight, or the satisfaction of recognizing the build up and seeing your observations recognized with a correct guess
Anyone else getting MCU burnout?
@@johnfulcher8448 I'm not sure if we should call it "MCU burnout" or "MCU crash!" Everything was building up to the finale, the Endgame, where everything was heading and the hype was real! Suddenly we're in a situation where everyone is following their own story, and whenever something big happens we wonder "Where is everyone else?" We had they high, here's the crash!
@@xendordawnburst9969 that's it, at this point every movie they make has to basically be a avengers movie or else it just dosnt seem to make much sense
Unfortunately, pulling a Kaizer Soze takes some great acting chops and writing. The current writers just aren't that good. Indeed, most Hollywood script writers seem to be just plain bad. The ones who are good, I don't think are being brought on board the Big Budget projects, except for a few. Interestingly, the DC movies are getting better, which is a genuine shocker.
I think my favourite version of this is Littlefinger being revealed to have killed Jon Arryn in Game of Thrones. He's already a villain at this point, but you just think he's a backstabbing opportunist. It's only in that scene when you realise he is so, so much worse. And there were already signs of that which make the reveal make sense.
A whole year later and well into phase 5 and this post endgame problem still hasn't been resolved. It feels worse now that the Kang storyline has been completely abandoned (along with a lot of phase 4 storylines/setups) and RDJ as Doom was announced. All of this seems to be falling apart to the point that Feige has turned to desperate attempts to bring people back with RDJ rather than quality stories and characters that matter and work together towards a common goal.
This is what I explained to my friends lmao, the avengers are pretty much gone, and they’re just tossing all these new characters and issues at us with minimal crossover making one big mess for the average fan to follow through, personally I’m just waiting for the midnight suns or at the very least a ghost rider to appear
Do you remember what phase 2 and 3 were actually like? Constantly every movie everyone was wondering where the other hero’s are and why they aren’t interacting, the nostalgia goggles for the first 3 phases is insane to me
@@bertmanstew5598 Omfg finally someone with some sense I agree wholeheartedly with you. It's all going to make sense in Phases 5&6.
They brought the whole Marvel universe together for two movies to fight bad guys and then suddenly no-one talks to each other ever again. Infinity War and Endgame should have been the new formula. No more single hero movies while the entire world/universe is going to be annihilated. I get the super heroes have their own charms but they translated perfectly in the group dynamic movies. Sure give them a single movie to establish the character if you want, but from there introduce them to the actual world, not their own little bubble that nobody else is allowed to enter.
I was really disappointed that we didn't have a proper Guardians + Thor movie.
@@bertmanstew5598 I was writing a literal essay for this, how everything should be making sense now... until I remembered that the Marvel movies were released in disorder and there where numerous big problems and every other hero just didn't seem to care.
If we wait maybe everything will make sense.
@@SolarTxl also people complain about the quality going downhill when it’s always been mostly mid, a couple garbage movies, and a few that shined. Civil War came out around the same time as Thor 2 and Iron Man 2/3, Antman 2 and Captain Marvel came out around the same time as Infinity War and Endgame, etc.
Really wish Marvel had taken a well earned rest after Endgame or Far From Home. The virus seems like a nice built in excuse to back off for a year or so and just let it breathe. It's just become exhausting trying to follow all the shows and movies now and the compressed release schedule has a lot to do with that. One of the problems that didn't get mentioned in this otherwise excellent video is the meshing of TV continuity with the films' continuity. In the past Marvel TV and Marvel Studios kept things apart from each other. Agents of Shield and Agent Carter didn't really factor into the movies. Now we have the new big bad introduced in a TV show and he'll be moving into the films. And if you didn't watch WandaVision you'd be confused as to why she was all of a sudden evil and trying to find her children (of which she has none) in Multiverse of Madness. It's not right for the more casual fans who are into the films but don't care to watch all the D+ shows or just don't have the time to.
agreed
Pandemic was the opportunity of a lifetime for pushing content to people online. That's why we got the influx of awful shows like Ms Marvel, Moon Knight, She-Hulk, etc. It's all a cash grab orchestrated to please the shareholders of the megacorps.
@@chillaxTFcouldnt agree more
That's basically it. They threw away their fandom. People that were okay and liked watching their movies twice a year, couldn't give less of a shit to these tv shows and now these people feel lost in the stories told in the movies and discouraged to even watch them.
@@rodrigopfs Its just overwhelming. I feel like I'd have to make it a full time job to get caught up at this point and frankly, I dont care.
The lack of cohesive storylines hit the nail right on the proverbial infinity stones. It feels like they stepped over their own feet in order to try and tell too many isolated narratives with too many different hands passing over them. Btw, the editing on this was top shelf. 👌
@Hatterway But at least the phase 1 films had their own coherent endings to keep us satisfied during the wait for the ultimate event. The incompatible tone and quality of the phase 4 films will make the ultimate event less impactful because it won't be as natural as Infinity War. Also, we haven't really seen true character development in these shows. They get introduced to us in their ultimate state almost immediately, or they start off undeveloped and then abruptly become fully developed (very little time for them to transform).
@@TexasIronLegend I agree 💯 Starting them off as one step away from an avenger/superhero is so underwhelming because we don't really see the development (like you mentioned) of a real character arc but instead, they either start off close or they go from a normal person to a superhero in a single episode. Well said.
“in conclusion, go watch moneyball” was the best possible ending
The MCU has been special to me for a long time. It seems like in a lot of ways it's state mirrored my own life. Endgame came out my senior year of high school and it was both the MCU and my high point. Then corona comes along and nothing is the same, everything is directionless, monotonous, just bland and uncertain and it leaves you yearning for what came before.
Same for me bro. Exactly the same.
Think about it though. Was phase 4 that bad? Sure it suffered but I think a big part of that is the pandemic. Now everyone wants what come before. Why? Because life was simpler. That’s my take anyway
Oh, most likely we are the same age lol
Na dude, that’s just adulthood 😂
People getting old dont realize theyre also getting "boring".
When its not a super devisive, black-supremacist film, im fine with some of the more lighthearted, dumb entertainment. Just ignore the people telling you everything is going to shot.
I think a hurdle Marvel Studio will have to figure out is the escalation problem. More powerful heroes, bigger conflicts, in shorter lengths of time.
I'd say losing SHIELD as a way to tie the world's together has hurt too. Wong can only do so much
Yeah, which is weird because they were teased to be returning back in Age of Ultron. Then they didn't even involve them in Civil War. They definitely need a SHIELD to have things come together. Especially with all these characters popping up all over the place. Perfect for recruiting a new team.
15:45 "Ant-Man and the Wasp: OowAoOoo" JSJRJSKSLMAO
I reckon there should’ve been a 1-2 year break after endgame. To give time for everyone to settle and for rumours and hype to begin. Marvel could’ve taken their time to make the films/series and eventually after that year or two they would announce the new saga and the films that would begin it.
..... There was. Maybe not in terms of announcements but COVID kept Marvel from releasing stuff for a while
I felt something very strongly when I watched Endgame, at the beginning of the credits where all the major cast members had their signatures show up (shades of Star Trek: The Undiscovered Country), that it really was The End. This was the end of the MCU. The greatest shared universe, beginning and ending with Tony Stark as Iron Man, the last truly epic filmmaking achievement of our lifetimes (possibly of cinema EVER), and now it was over. And it was fantastic. What a goddamn achievement. It felt like anything after that would just be beating a dead horse. Beating a zombie Doctor Strange, maybe.
And you know what? Nothing I've seen since then has convinced me that I was wrong.
"The greatest shared universe, beginning and ending with Tony Stark as Iron Man, the last truly epic filmmaking achievement of our lifetimes (possibly of cinema EVER)"
Now lets not get over ourselves.
@@davidstinger1134 I mean it basically was, Marvel was the most popular franchise in the entire world for a good 10 years+
The Shang-Chi ending part was so facts, they really could’ve just had Wenwu be angry at the village for her death or for not giving him their powers and they didn’t need to include the dragons at all
I didnt even watch shang chen until the end
The dragons were a key part of the movie. The mother got her powers from the dragon, and the village entire purpose was to be protecters, the father being mad at the village for her death would make no sense. He also had his own powers called the 10 rings, and has never been shown to be in search for more power. Having a battle because he doesn’t have even more power when no one has posed a single threat to him makes 0 sense. It was his enemies that killed his wife. He only went to the village because he was being called by the dragon. Did you even watch the movie?
@@hlbwlt4867 Same, I enjoyed its sequel Shane Chang though
To be honest i went to watch it with my Girlfriend and it was so boring we ended up just making out
@@famus801 And then you woke up.
I know stories end and all but you also have to know that Marvel has soooo many more comics and stories they can do for the MCU. I think ever since RDJ and Chris Evan’s left ppl just didn’t care abt the movies anymore without watching them
I feel like with every new release, they have to keep upping the stakes, and eventually it feels overwhelming to have stakes that high in a solo movie.
Ah yes “the goku effect”
That's the thing. Once Endgame ended they needed to dial everything back, or else the world would be facing "end of the world" type events with every movie.
For example - Shang-Chi had the potential to just tell a story about a family conflict, but had to throw in a creature that would destroy the world at the end. They could have just moved that to a different movie, and made it a team-up thing. Or even just left it for a Shang-Chi 2 that went into what the rings were.
Reminds me of how ridiculous the Fast & Furious franchise got
@@SRFAA absolutely. Shang-Chi, Eternals, Dr Strange 2, so many of these movies have had world- or even dimension-ending stakes. Black Widow even had the Red Room manipulating the whole world for that to be set up and resolved in one movie.
This is what I call the supernatural effect. Season 5 was a good ending. Endgame was a good ending. I'd be satisfied never watching a marvel movie again after endgame (except for anything directed by waititi)
I've said this numerous times now: *_No Way Home_* is gonna end up being the only Phase 4 movie that's gonna be rewatchable for generations to come.
It's distributed by Sony, so it's sort of doesn't count
Have you not seen shang chi? Even dr strange is rewatchable it gets way better when you rewatch it
I doubt it. It's a product of hype. People were hyped to see every actor that played spiderman together. If you re watched it now you will realize how empty and contradictory the story is. It's quite bad.
Not really, that one makes bank off of nostalgia more then anything which in itself is telling
I don’t think so. It wasn’t terrible but the only reason it got so much hype and fan attention is because of nostalgia for the other spiderman actors. In twenty years, no one is going to care at all about that. Nostalgia is a horrible way to try and improve a story.
I have been having a discussion about Marvel with a friend for months. You nailed every point both of us had. Bravo!
The Marvel Cinematic Universe is the quote from Harvey Dent where he says, "You either die a hero, or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain."
Yeah, I don't know how they could fail so badly after Endgame, when they succeeded before. I mean, they wrote the handbook. Introduce new generation of superheroes, focus on 3-4 main heroes driving a core narrative. Get a climatic movie with these main heroes. Slowly introduce another 4-6 side heroes alongside, intro'd via TV shows or as part of the main narrative. Build towards another event film. Rinse and repeat.
thats literally a cardboard cut out of what they did i doubt theyd wanna be that shallow
@@headshot531 lol if anything their current approach is far more shallow, a retread would've been better
This is literally what they're doing right now. Like, to a T. People just wan't everything. If they didn't kill off characters and introduce others, people would still complain that "Theyre just doing the same." There's no winning.
Simple, that the entire MCU was building up to Endgame.
Thanos was being teased since 2012, since the first Avengers movie.
And now...
That's it. it's over.
Endgame was just too much of an ending.
Not that i'm complaining, I rather things end on a high note and be done with it, but now they are just trying to do something the MCU wasn't meant to do.
@@davidstinger1134 it has to reset and build to something else (kang/secret wars) which it is. People are being dumb
While I agree that the connections are important the biggest issue for me is the over dependence on humor and lack of stakes. Allow moments to be serious and the consequences to be devastating. If there are no consequences then there are no risks, GoT was so wonderful during it's prime because you were unsure who would live and who would die. If Marvel adopts this mentality after phase 4 they might succeed more. Allow certain characters, to lose some serious fights and allow the world to feel the effects. Then you can bring characters together to battle this issue and it will feel genuine. For Example in Doctor Strange MoM: Can you imagine how much better it would have been if Strange had lost to evil Strange? America Chavez is killed not by Wanda, but by the evil Strange who had beaten our Strange and made a deal with Mephisto or Dormammu sending our Strange to be a prisoner? Where in another story Wanda has to team up with the Midnight sons to save him? Real stakes make the story immersive without them they are bland.
The only opinion not coming from hate.
Well if you think about marvel character comic books, they have entire arcs and stories that have no connection to other characters, marvel movies need to remain independent whilst having specific movies dedicated to linking the dots eg teamup movies ect
Not a problem.
Just get another Strange, that's the exact same as our Strange from the multiverse (after all, this nonsense can be used to fix anything, the multiverse is 'infinite').
Or better yet, that's not even a stake, because Wanda can do anything. She can make the evil Strange into spaghetti and meatballs. Done.
The problem isn't the 'stakes'.
The problem is the nonsense of 'multiverse', where no character is truly dead, the nonsense of woke genius girl boss op characters like 'Wanda', where she can apparently do anything and so on.
i feel like 30% of the shows and movies have been good in phase 4 but as you said, they really don't have good endings or cohesion leaving us feel empty when they end, i feel like most people enjoyed wandavision, loki, moon knight when they came out and episodes were being dicussed but when they ended most people forgot about them. Shang Chi and No Way Home were especially good as well.
Wandavision was really frustrating for me because I thought the show was great, quite original and prepared for something even better. But what we got (Multiverse of madness) was really disappointing with a serial killer Wanda that doesn't stitch well with the ending of wandavision and a totally absent white Vision.
I couldn't get into Loki because I thought that, well, Loki was just dumb. He is despicted as a master of lies, a manipulator, but during the whole show he is just stupid. At first I thought he figured it all out and had a plan for everything, but no, not at all. It's a miracle the dude is still alive. Overall I think his character is badly written. Female loki isn't better.
@@jonathaningram8157 ye u have summed up how i feel about those shows aswell. Wanadavision was good overall but the ending was a generic fight and multiverse of madness did nothing to help her character, they didnt bring back white vision or do anything with that storyline indeed. And loki had an interesting story in my opinion but you are right in that he was dumbed down so that the female loki could stand out more
_what we got (Multiverse of madness) was really disappointing with a serial killer Wanda that doesn't stitch well with the ending of wandavision_
It's just shitty writing and directing. People don't understand what happened.
- Scott Derrickson who did Doctor Strange 1 was supposed to direct.
- Nightmare was the main villain. It was going to be a twisted surreal horror film.
- Wanda was to start out as a genuine ally of Strange but fall down a dark path by the film's end.
- America Chavez was going to be introduced as a multiverse jumping character.
- The multiverse was going to come unraveled in this film.
- No Way Home would come *after* this film, and so would not need the stupid plot about getting into college and Strange casting the cartoon forget spell.
[which makes no 'magical' sense and is just one of the dumbest uses of magic - ever]
- There were actual story boards showing Chavez opening the portals to rescue Strange in No Way Home.
- Both films - potentially - would have actually made sense.
- This was tricky and took time to develop. But Disney was impatient and greedy and told Scott to hurry up or step off.
- Scott got fired.
- And then Covid 19 happened.
- This completely made a joke of Disney's hurry up demand because it shut down the whole film industry - Scott would have had plenty of time to write MOM as it turned out - but...too late now - he went on to make the Black Phone (a much better horror film) instead.
- Enter Sony: Now they refused to wait for Multiverse Of Madness and just rewrote NWH with one of the *stupidest* plots in the history of writing. lol.
[Sony and Disney basically f'ed both films into the ground]
- Meanwhile Feige in desperation turned to burnt-out Sam Raimi to direct MoM, and minimum wage writer Michael Waldron to do the multiverse writing (cuz he did cartoon multiverse for Rick and Morty)
- The result is a complete cluster fk. Multiverse of Madness retcons the entire Infinity Saga so that it makes *no sense* and turns a complex character Wanda Maximov - into a cartoon horror movie witch from an evil dead movie.
What a mess.
_Wandavision was good overall but the ending was a generic fight_
There was more to it than that - that was *not* generic but many people didn't get it.
The two androids had a battle of logic.
The two witches had a psychological war.
There's a great scene where Wanda using Runes - sneaks up on Agatha and attempts to westview her [mind control].
But Agatha is counting on this - and she traps Wanda in *her* mind where the other witches all turn on Wanda, because they know she is the foretold Scarlett Witch.
Almost no one got this scene though - they think it's just generic something-something fighting.
Should have been better executed but it's still better than almost anything else in all of phase 4.
The dumb fkry that went on in multiverse of madness does not even bear examining.
Wanda is too stupid to even understand how a woman can actually 'have babies' with the power of 'female' and would not need to go on insane killing spree.... [which Raimi's laughable 'horror' movie needs and just uses Wanda to make it happen]
Raimi and Waldron don't get this, and don't get how the character they've created has no credibility from a female perspective.
90% of everything Endgame and after has been absolute GARBAGE. Shang Chi was not bad but not great, No Way Home was a colossal waste of time because much like Wandavision and the new Dr Strange, Marvel Disney has no clue how a multiverse works.
The best part of phase 4 was probably Loki, loved that show
I didn't even get into marvel movies until 2014. Been a while now though. I saw Guardians and wanted to know what was up with these infinity stones, and when I found it it was an entire cohesive 'universe,' I was amazed, then I learned about these 'phases.' I got hooked instantly and never read the comics and had no idea what infinity stones were.
The ultimate hype was _Infinity War._ I still remember seeing that in IMAX over 4 years ago.... how time flies, it is insane
Same for me
Sameee
i remember getting Infinity War spoiled for by my friend when he said everyone died and I didn't even believe him until I watched it lol.
This is one of the best video essays I’ve seen about the MCU. The opening was a spot on analogy.
I just wanna say, the hook with the baseball movie at the beginning of the video was fantastic. Brilliant strategy to absorb the viewer with a compelling story right off the bat, and then use it as an analogy throughout the rest of the video. Creates a great sense of cohesiveness to the whole video, as if it was a mini movie in and of itself. I just couldn't help but be intriguied and not click off the whole time. Just subscribed, looking forward to seeing what else you'll be making in the future!
"right off the bat"
I see what you did there 😉
Found the alt account
I almost clicked off when he started talking about baseball within the first minute or so with no clear direction of where he was taking the story
@@VERY_TALL_MAN lmao. 😂
@@toastybread9267 same. He was talking too much about baseball and I got annoyed
Kind of funny how people forgot that Werewolf by Night came and went. No one mentions it anymore
I completely agree with everything but mostly the line in the intro that endgame felt like the end. I hadn’t thought of the pandemics impact but you’re totally right. It was the pause to let the finality of endgame settle and now it feels hard to jump back in. Also, the frequency of their projects feeling like “content” is spot on
I think the most interesting parallel you didn't mention here is the Post Moneyball problem the A's have, which is that while money-ball as a concept gave them a big competitive boost on a low budget, it didn't solve any of the problems that caused them to struggle in the first place. Once the rest of the league adapted to the concepts they were introducing the weaknesses money-ball was hiding started to shine through once again.
Yeah, and also, a 20-game win streak might _SOUND_ good, but it is essentially meaningless because of the sheer insane amount of games that is played in an MLB regular season (and even more in the post season). 162 games in the regular season! Winning 20 in a row out of 162 is not gonna really help. Consistently winning all season is what brings success, not a brief period of a few weeks.
@@duffman18 1:53 what movie is this
@@duffman18 what was "the problems that caused them to struggle in the first place"
I think the previous phases set a bar soo high that failure was inevitable
If they knew what they were doing, their success would be Iron Man
Not really, Thats like saying musicians get to big for their new album. Its not they they set the bar too high they just seperated themselves to far from what their original fans fell in love with. Marvel Dropped a 3 part album that got them into the mainstream and instead of telling the fans they are making movies that have nothing to do with eachother they lie and say they havent changed abit and its the fans fault for their failures. The fans need to stop listening to the older music and they are bad for not wanting anything to do with their new music. They didnt set a bar, they just got in their own way and cant take the critisizm.
@@versecontro4898artists branch out tho, the great ones evolve in sound, but you’re right that they don’t abandon what they gave the audience at first. artiste balance this while the mcu fails to by abandoning everything in previous phases
The bar wasn't that high. Marvel movies are consistent, not masterpieces. If we got marvel on the level of the Batman with scattered stories I don't think people would complain too much
"You could not live with your own failure. Where did that bring you? Back to me."
That wasn't just him adressing the Avengers, that was him adressing the MCU. He was trying to warn us!
One of the issues I had with Multiverse of Madness was that there wasn't that much multiverse explored.
There was 1 scene near the start where they rapidly flew through many and then they just seemed to stick with 1 multiverse.
I'm not a huge fan of marvel beyond spiderman but I do have to say watching everything back to back until endgame was a really cool experience and is a huge achievement in entertainment history.
Awesome video. For me it boils down to there just being too many characters to "care" about post endgame. There's a lot that I've enjoyed in phase 4, but there just isn't enough time with each character to become invested in and emotionally tied to. There were a lot of characters in endgame, but we got the time with the characters that we were most invested in. Going forward, there will be even more characters added, so it feels like it's impossible that I'll be as emotionally invested as before (still got the feels about iron man).
I hadn't realised this is exactly my ick with the MCU until reading this comment. You're exactly right, it was much more manageable pre-Endgame and now it's just impossible to keep up with. Plus unlike the comics there's an expectation of needing to see every single movie/show that drops to understand the greater narrative or arc; obviously there are even more characters in the comics than the films but there is 0 expectation of keeping up with all of them.
This is such a good take. I have enjoyed more of Phase 4 than not, but my enthusiasm for the MCU is nowhere near what it was before Endgame. I haven't been able to put my finger on why, but you absolutely nailed it.
S
it's cus there's nothing this phase is building up to rn. shit cool when you was waiting for thanos. now we gotta wait a brick before they even start teasing Kang
@@User61918 and probably worse, feeding audiences off intertextuality with characters we once loved and adored way before they merge into the MCU.
@@User61918 they already teased kang in loki. He was the big bad lol. It has been building up to kang, just very slowly. Even in the ant man movies with his house in the dimension.
Because the movies have freaking sucked so far, that's why. Black Panther was a breath of fresh air, but that's about it
The baseball analogy actually worked really well
Can I just compliment you on how well you delivered your intro. It was both entertaining and captivating. Thank you
No way home was fantastic. But I feel like our love for the film is generated mostly from nostalgia. Still, it’s nice to see these old characters in new atmospheres. I feel like the MCU can get so much mileage out of these characters. Take Willem Defoe as Norman Osborn. For me, he was the best part of No Way Home. I feel like the MCU can continue to use these older characters as long as they can continue to evolve them. And to your point, bringing these characters together in an organic way is the only way they can replicate that original MCU magic. I hope they get it together soon and they stop biting off more than they can chew with all these little projects. I think they take away from the bigger picture.
i agree
No way home was also a disappointment in my opinion.
First of all, how dare you
I mean, our love of Avengers is also based on nostalgia, and what a moment it was to have the novelty of them all getting together. It’s ok for some of these movies to rely on things like that. It’s reassuring and comforting when characters we all know come together and fit like a satisfying jigsaw puzzle. It’s like at the heart of every nerd’s hopes and dreams lol.
No Way Home was really really fun because of the crossovers they did, and I could never bash that. I had a great time watching it. Otherwise it was not a very good movie though. For anyone who is uninvested in those characters it was mid at best. A lot of the writing was half-assed, but it's just because the focus was on the crossover not the story. It's great but it isn't fantastic by any stretch of the imagination.
They had so many opportunities to connect the multi verse story lines but didn't do it.
WHOOOOOT?! A VIDEO ESSAY ON MARVEL PHASE 4 THAT DOESNT ONLY HIGHLIGHT NEGATIVE ASPECTS OF EACH SHOW?! FUCKING AWESOME!
Sadly with Shang Chi, I doubt we'll see the same level of fight scenes with Brad Allen passing away. He was a long time stuntman for Jackie Chan and was part of some of the best fight scenes in Jackie's movies. That man was incredibly talented and won't be easy to replace as a choreographer.
This is my first time stumbling upon one of your videos and I have to say, this was a wonderfully crafted list and you really nail down each individual point. Very impressive. I'll be tuning in again.
I think a very large key factor in all of this too is this idea of consequence that you talked about phase 4 lacking. It’s almost as if the next big phase villain should have been eased in before thanos was even defeated so that we understand even before the giant payoff that there is bigger fish in this pond than him. Also they have horribly mismanaged the way that these characters and villains fight in this phase, as it just feels ridiculous and unbelievable that every villain wants to see the world end. Like we just had endgame come out a couple years ago, do I really think Christian bale is gonna succeed for a second in a random Thor sequel? No, because in my brain I’m like well what the fuck are the eternals gonna do then?
I don’t think overshadowing the main villain of the entire first 3 phases would’ve been enjoyable the finality of endgame was what made it brilliant having it be overshadowed by a larger threat would’ve been a huge mistake especially with all the characters that were taken out and their huge importance to the marvel universe
I think the way they 'should' have done it is at the post credits for endgame simply having Kang watching a feed of what's happening in Chronopolis. Seeing Thanos saying he's inevitable then simply laughing, and cut.
Introducing the next villain early is a great move, having them be bigger than Thanos is not. In fact they kind of did it with Wanda. Having the next villain be a threat of a very different nature is a great idea, they just killed her off in the first movie that she's villainous in. Or maybe they didn't and she'll return to be the Big Bad. Remember, we Never Saw The Body...
When I learned the Eternals weren't going to save the Great Library of Alexandria ... I was done with them.
i recently started catching up on all the marvel projects i missed and holy shit it was rough. not only because i missed so much, but because all of the projects were sooooo bad and didnt seem to be going anywhere. it feels like homework trying to keep up with everything and if you don’t watch one show or movie, you won’t understand some other projects.
Too many branches going in completely separate ways. These new characters need to be connected more to each other. One movie should affect the next and work toward something but it just doesnt feel like theyre in the same universe
I think it's okay to have some projects that don't really tie into the current MCU like Moon Knight, but when everything's like that it just feels disconnected.
@@timotheninja In Moon Night the night's sky was reversed for tens of millions of people... no one in any other project ever even mentioned it. In Eternals a celestial was half-birthed from the planet and it was mentioned once in a later project as a joke.
When you have a connected universe, then these big planetary things need to actually be referenced by others, otherwise it's not really a conencted universe except as pure convenience to the writers.
@@MST3Killa Maybe everyone was asleep during that? Idk. I haven't seen Eternals, but yeah that does sound like something that should be mentioned.
They either needed to find a way to tone things down and make it so it was actually possible for the movies to interlock in a reasonable way. I mean, Eternals literally had an avengers level threat that would warrant EVERY single marvel character coming to fight the issue in some kind of way. Which was obviously not going to happen. Maybe the Eternals could've been on another planet, or something of the sort.
Or they needed to separate the characters from each other so they could exist in their own universes. That way, the Eternals could fight their world ending threat without having to question why aren't any of the other capable avengers and characters coming to help.
The marvel universe has gotten too big for itself to be self-consistent with itself anymore, especially with the rate at which they were pumping out movies and shows. So I think it would've been cool if they had somehow separated the stories into their own universes/timelines.
I really miss a more in-depth view of how society was during the Blip, kinda like the TV show The Leftovers. While The Falcon and the Winter Soldier does mention some stuff, it's clear that a lot of stuff was left in the cutting room floor during the reshoots.
The reason why Falcon & Winter Soldier's stuff left on the cutting room floor is - very likely ( as in, not explicitly confirmed, but everything points to it) - that the Flagsmashers plot was going to be heavily focused on a pandemic largely focusing on those who came back from the blip and didn't have any developed natural immunity built up to said virus, causing it to return and mutate into something much more deadly. Which is why they were stealing medical supplies and crying over sick people in the 1st one or two episodes before the show proceeds to ignore anything like that in the rest of the series.
Reasons for potentially cutting this aspect of the plot and haphazardly changing the motivation for the terrorists would be because COVID.
I feel like Far From Home did a great job following up the Blip. The Home films have always felt like that to me, extremely "homey" and down to earth, like a friendly neighborhood. Spider-Man in the MCU gets a lot of shit but i feel his films are really unique and filled with a lot of style that you don't see often in the MCU, especially Homecoming and No Way Home. Homecoming has my personal favorite "look" into the MCU world as it allows us to see how the _people_ think of the heroes, from kids looking up to them, to having crushes on them, to having their jobs/lives ruined by them, etc. Peters personal battle with wanting to be part of the big leagues was always cool to me too.
I’ve felt this way since after endgame. Didn’t know how to describe it, but this sums it up perfectly for me. I still like the current marvel projects, but many don’t seem to be as good as the original 20+. I still have hope, and hope it does all come together somehow
Dude, this was absolutely Brilliant. I hope Kevin see's this.