ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 23 ก.ย. 2024
- Go to my sponsor snhu.edu/idyl and to see what the current average annual salary for a game programmer is and learn how you can get started
Patreon: / idyl
Follow me on Twitter: / idyl_rs
Join the squad on discord: / discord
Have you ever wondered why MMORPG quests often feel like a tedious chore rather than an epic adventure? Join us on this deep dive into the quest systems of some of the most iconic MMORPGs in the gaming world: World of Warcraft Classic, Old School RuneScape, Final Fantasy XIV, and Star Wars: The Old Republic.
In this video, we embark on a quest of our own, exploring the intricate world of MMORPG quests and uncovering the reasons behind their notorious reputation. We'll traverse the nostalgic landscapes of Azeroth, dive into the charming simplicity of Gielinor, journey through the fantastical realms of Eorzea, and venture into the galaxy far, far away.
#mmorpg #worldofwarcraft
There's one other thing that Runescape does with its quest rewards that I don't see other MMOs doing. They give you rewards that are good forever. In WoW you'll get a cool helmet that you'll wear and enjoy, but you'll swap it out in 5 levels for another helmet from another quest which you'll wear for 5 levels and the cycle repeats. But I'm a pretty high level in OSRS and I still get around with fairy rings, I still wear my cooking gauntlets, I still manage my kingdom, and I still visit Tears of Guthix once a week.
I haven't played RS in years but that still rings true to me. I remember getting a membership and immediately going everywhere I could to try to get specific quest rewards to help me do more stuff. Transportation, resource gatherig locations, specific skill unlocks, or the occasional special weapon... The quests were so much better than "do this, get currency and EXP" in most other games.
Osrs is horrid because its not the graphics of the first animal crossing for me and the simple layout that is smart and awesome on utilizing the game correctly. You just explain the stupidity of the game in a stupid scenario of yourself. I struggled with RuneScape or any game but if their enough strong graphics on certain things and mostly everything and the characters have great shape like anything in the game and everything is placed correctly. The use can be great with great and simple music.
@@javierkiman8302wtf is this jumbled mess of a thought?
@@PuddspankerExplains why he struggled with RS😂
There are only a few quests in vanilla or "Classic" WoW that have rewards that remain relevant for a long time or into endgame or are "evergreen" (e.g. Magic Dust, Speed Potion, Light of Elune, Diamond Flask, etc.), but it's good that most items are replaced or else your bags would be full all the time or your bank would be full, I think most players in WoW run into the storage capacity, hence "bank alts" are a thing
Putting Romeo and Juliet on screen while talking about the good writing in osrs quests... A+
Definitely not novel writing, but it's just a straight parody of the original Romeo and juliet in which romeo has about half a brain cell (compared to the original who has one whole cell). I can dig it.
So sad they removed it in RS3
many people hate the leveling phase but it is the favorite phase for me. usually when I get to max level the game becomes less intriguing to me.
That's because you're always doing new things and travelling to new places and once you're max level you're always doing the same old thing and it just gets monotonous.
Runescape has always been a play your way and set your own goals type of game.
So once you max one thing (like quests) you can refocus your efforts on something else long term. This gives you that consistent dopamine rush.
yulp, same.
once i get endgame or sometimes even before it ill quit
ive only seen molten core like 2x, zg 1x
quit right after lol
i could live in blackrock but finding others to do the same is nigh impossible...still have not 100% cleared those areas /sad
exactly
@@ElainaMaruyamainteresting cuz to me (mainly interested in raiding/late game content) it's the opposite - I feel like I've done each kind of quest a million times and it being in a new zone with a new reason to kill stuff or deliver something doesn't really make a difference and still feels like a chore before the fun part of the game
Ah yes, early FFXIV ARR. Where everything just feels like a side quest, until a narrative actually forms dozens of hours later.
I started playing OSRS as a F2P a couple weeks ago, and have honestly really enjoyed most of the quests! I love that they AREN'T just following a glowing light on a minimap, I feel like I genuinely have to think and experiment to solve some of them. Now there have been a few nasty fetch quests like you mentioned, but by and large they've been awesome.
It really helps that RuneScape's level progression isn't hard-tied to quests. You're kind of expected to just monotonously grind mobs down or chop trees down to get XP and levels. This then enables the developers to make actual meaningful and diverse quests with a greater focus on quality rather than quantity since character progression isn't largely dependent on questing.
The fun thing about RS quests though is that while they are ultimately 'mandatory' for character progression, they're mandatory in the sense that they'll merely speed up or improve the grind in many ways. Which is a more dynamic and fun way of giving players experience and levels opposed to simply "gain 10k XP for completing this quest". Which, mind you, is still a type of reward many quests give in RS but they're genuinely a bonus reward besides the main reward, which would range from unlocking an item that lets you teleport to a far corner of the world to a pair of secateurs which increases the yield received from harvesting crops, to a staff that enables you to use an incredibly strong spell relative to the magic level it actually requires.
Also furthermore many of the quests have corny yet a cozy feeling story to them. It's clear the developers, at times, were just having fun with the writing and it oddly enough adds to the world building of the game.
Not to mention the mother of all fetch quests, One Small Favour.
I was just grinding on RS3 and I found a girl near the mountains and started a christmas quest. I was a fun and cute quest to do despite not giving much. Also I did a haunted mansion quest for a ring that gives a nice combat bonus and holy shit It amazed me that the quest resembled a old school horror game.
Guid Wars 2 approaches quests unlike any of the MMOs you mentioned. Its F2P till lvl 80 so you can try it easily. But I get it, theres no chance to play every MMO, but Id say GW2 is big enough to deserve to be mentioned
Types of MMOs quests:
-Go kill X, Y amount of times
-Go loot X, Y amount of times
-Go to place X
-Go interact (or use item Z) with X, Y amount of times
-Bring Y amount of X
Now you can combine these in any order.
That's 90% of MMOs quests.
I actually don't mind this, if the gameplay of exploring, killing and looting is fun; sadly is usually not the case. If you send me kill something make sure is something worth killing, if you me to go talk with someone make sure they have something interesting to tell, if you want me to interact with something make so it is a challenge or at least pretty to look at and not just a chore; if you want to make me go somewhere make sure it is a place worth exploring.
That's it, the quests don't need to be convoluted, massively scripted or huge narritive driven advetures. Just don't made me go kill 20 of the same guy of which none of them is engaging in any way.
Another thing we have to remmber is that sure we can make a intrigete quest like the Romeo and Juliat quest (not sure if its any good).
the problem comes whit the scale.
Like lets run wow classic
Like in wow level 1-20 each race have there own starting zone that let say 20 quest per zone.
so just going from level 1 to 20 is about 40 quest.
do it again for each race 6 so now we are at 240 quest just to get every race/start zone up to level 20 (we got another 40 levels left).
Plus the 3 quest per race/class combo you will do between level 1-20 that are unuqcle written whit hopefully some more gameplay system in it.
I dont think Balders gate 3 even have 240 quest total.
Since you’ve gone to more MMO focused content (instead of only Runescale), you’ve become one of my favorite content creators to listen to. Keep up the amazing work
Runescale?
Man I could write a whole essay on the mixed bag that is FFXIV questing. For context, I’m not an OG player but I have finished the entire main story up to and including the newest expansion, endwalker. To start with, the game suffers the same problem as OSRS - a boatload of legacy quests that are important for world building, but just, mostly suck to play. Without the ARR quests (what you were playing), a LOT of the rest of the game wouldn’t make sense, but at the same time those quests last something like 50-100 hours and exclusively follow the format of: kill 3 things, talk then walk, or click 3 things.
Fast forward to shadowbringers and endwalker and there’s WAY more voice acting, a much more tightly paced story, far more opportunities for your character to voice opinions, and some truly great quests mixed in with the normal stuff - FFXIV veterans will know what I’m talking about if I mention the “my powers got taken away” quest in endwalker. Adding onto that, there are lots side stories like several that unlock raids, that are absolutely up to par with the main story.
The result though is that it’s so difficult to convince friends to play the game. The proposition of “bro if you spend 100 hours doing some not great stuff, you get to play the best MMO story that exists” is just a really hard sell. Wish i could say more about that “best story” claim, but i wont be the one to spoil anyone who does decide to pick up the game.
Honestly you make it sound better than it actually is. The biggest problem in the game is the bad writing. So many of the quests are just poorly written, even in Shadowbringers. And despite what fans say, the story is mostly just bland and boring, with a few interesting moments sprinkled throughout that ultimately amount to nothing. Nothing about this game is particularly great, the levelling feels like its on auto-pilot because its so easy but on the other hand, some of the end game content is really punishing. It's like there is no balance at all. The worst part is the leveling experience never really teaches you anything about your class, which is important for end game raiding and dungeons. They just throw in these weird levemates or whatever its called that give some basic tips, where you group up with random people who finish everything in like 5 seconds, that in no way prepares you for harder mechanics at end game. It's honestly a very sub-par game and I am surprised its as popular as it is. Also there is just something about the zones in this game that makes it feel like an amusement park rather than a believable, fantasy world.
@@JohnSmith-ep2hm Wait, FFXIV does teach you most of its mechanics by the time you reach endgame. All the different markers get showcased multiple times during MSQ dungeons and trials.
Also, when you get into those dungeons and trials (even raids), other people's level and gear get scaled down to what is appropriate for that content. I'll admit it does get a bit diceay at the different level caps since they are usually scaled to the max ilvl of said expansion, but oh well.
About classes, you should be able to understand how they work simply by reading your abilities. Sure, you probably won't figure out some of the more out-there openers and how to fine tune your cooldown uses (although the 2min meta pretty much does that for you), but your core cycle is pretty much self-explanatory. And if that's not enough for you, there are a billion guides to help you figure out that not dropping phases as a black mage is good out there.
Actually, I'm a player who (conditioned by WoW questing) assumed that the main story in an MMO like FFXIV probably wasn't worth my time. So I've been playing since ARR and I skipped pretty much everything until Shadowbringers came out. Something about the premise of Shadowbringer's intrigued me so I decided to actually pay attention to the storyline. Honestly, it wasn't too difficult to follow even with all of cutscene skipping. The characters are well written so you're able to determine your relationship to most people (or you're contextually familiar with their presence in the storylines, like recognizing Estinien as a dragoon that played some significant role in Heavensward). If anything, Stormblood is maybe the one that requires the most context but I found the other expansions to stand on their own fairly well. I think if you don't mind doing the occasional google search for some context (such as who the Crystal Exarch is) then you can pretty much play the game however you want.
@@JohnSmith-ep2hm Mechanics are meant to be learned while fighting a boss. The game doesn't spoon feed you exactly how to do everything because part of the fun is figuring out how to beat it. You've also got dozens of dungeons/trials with various mechanics that all in one way or another get reintroduced in other fights, slowly teaching you mechanics and getting you used to them. If you don't want to figure it out with a random group of people then you have NPCs that can take you through dungeons instead.
I don't know what "leveling feels like its on auto pilot" even means. You're either progressing the main story and leveling your main along the way or doing random roulette dungeons/FATEs/other multiple side activities to level alt jobs. Its not like you're hitting one mob for three hours to gain half a level. You're actively engaged with playing the game and learning your job, picking up new job quests as you level more, unlocking new abilities/gauges/whatever. I don't know what balance has to do with any of this because obviously end game raids are going to be punishing compared to a level 20 dungeon. Its like you didn't even think before spouting nonsense about "no balance at all".
No idea what you're on about with the story either. If you think the events in each expansion amount to nothing then you haven't played the game. You should definitely try playing it before forming a weird barely thought out opinion on it.
RS3, while having its fair share of problems, has some of the best quests to ever grace an MMO. Sadly, getting through the many old pre-quests for the new ones is a chore, but god damn they're great when you get there!
Idk man walking around a maze in Sliske's Endgame for 2 hours for a few bits of lore was not fun or rewarding.
@@AzuraSkyyforget the maze, i cant do final fight for the life of me
@@iwanashow9I had the same and it was one of my last quests needed for QC. Had to use overloads and animate dead (and 90+ levels) because the hands kept killing me😂
I've played SWTOR since release, and back then the game was alot harder. Companions wouldn't keep your health bar topped off no matter what and HEROICS were impossible alone. You also had to do all side quests in an area to get enough xp to stay relevant on the planet. Now you can skip all of them.
I used to enjoy running all sidequests with friends, you would all participate in the conversations and this really felt like doing quests together.
I think they changed this to appeal to a larger player base, and back then it was a little bit harder to really get into your main story quests because you were doing 6 quests at the same time, all with fleshed out stories. But questing used to be a lot of fun with a group of friends back when SWTOR just released.
President of MMOrpgs while Josh Strife Hayes is still breathing is beyond insulting but i'll let it slide this time.
He's the vice president of mmos
What’s a president to a god?
I will say, on WoW Classic there is an addon called voiceover that actually uses AI to have the quest giver speak to you. It also continues after accepting so you don’t have to just sit there.
how good are the voices in your opinion?
@@nutthrobthey're not too bad at all. You just sort of just accept the quest and listen passively as you go on your journey. You get to know a lot about the lore and makes the quests have meaning
Oh wow, I've been kinda hoping for something like that to be added to WoW.. One of the best things about Diablo 3 that I never hear anyone talk about is when you kill a monster type for the first time in that game, you have Deckard Cain tell you lore about the said monster.
And I wish so badly that more games would "talk to you" while you're collecting 10 bear asses, nobody likes to stop for a while and read while playing video games. But people sure wouldn't mind listening
@@nutthrob can also attest they're pretty good. Sadly it seems to only be for the main races unless it's gotten an update I don't know about, so goblins and satyrs and whatever other random quest givers don't have voices. The voices that are there can sound a little clunky and sometimes out of place, but usually they're fine. Like 99/100 times it will be fine and the last 1 will be silly vocalization like thrall getting VERY excited that you are the hero or or Org
@@literallynobody9769 yea, some voices also can just change tone/sex midway through their dialogue, but it is really nice to have the quests lore without needing to stop questing to read it
Man, FFXIV really need to go back and re-do the first 50 - 60 levels. The problems this video mentioned about FFXIV's quests are definitely true, but in later content they are lessen and counter acted by really cool story beats going on. The early quests don't have those story beats so you end up with all the "bad" with non of the sweetness to help make it okay. I loved the story I played through in FFXIV and still consider it one of my favourite times in gaming that I've had, more so than the similar experience I had with wow but it's an incredibly tough sell to anyone when the opening 50 hours is so basic and bland :(
GW2 quests (hearts)+ dynamic event system + main story to me are just far far better than any
Yeah, expected at least an honourable mention. Oh well.
ESO is my favorite MMO largely because of its quests. Fully voiced and often very interesting. One that i always remember is in the Summerset zone where a guy turned all his classmates into characters from various books. You have to read the books around the characters to figure out which book they are based on and disrupt the storyline so they snap back to reality. Its a very fun and creative quest
For some story-heavy quests, FFXIV actually shows that you will receive a reward but it doesn't show you exactly what just yet, it just shows a little gift box. This is a great little teaser and those quest rewards are generally the most meaningful too because they are usually a reminder from the piece of story you just played through
The questing in FF XIV is absolute cancer. Boring, pointless, hopping around and kill 3 of these and 2 of those quests. Voice acting is almost non-existent and when it's there, it's as bad as it can be. Really wanted to like the game, but it's such an overrated mess.
@@af6756Unfortunately, ARR is the absolute worst part of the game. It was utterly rushed after the failure of 1.0. Everything gets better by orders of magnitude in Heavensward - especially the Voice Acting. But it is a tough slog to get there.
For FFXIV Voice Acting, the early quests had only sporadic voice-acting throughout the MSQ (Main Story Questline), basically just the ones involving major named characters like the Scions or the faction leaders, but over time it became more and more common for the majority of the MSQ to be voice-acted, while side quests and the like are not.
Honestly side quests not being voiced is a pretty common japanese game thing
I really miss the voices from ARR
The questing in FF XIV is absolute cancer. Boring, pointless, hopping around and kill 3 of these and 2 (not even fun from a grinding a spect) of those quests. Voice acting is almost non-existent and when it's there, it's as bad as it can be. Really wanted to like the game, but it's such an overrated mess.
I feel like you didn't do the defias brotherhood justice atleast from what i heard about it is that - the stonemasons built stormwind and when they refused to be paid they essentially said they would deconstruct stormwind. "stone by stone" or something like that... which i think is pretty cool.
Yeah essentially the storm wind nobles, who to be fair were broke after funding an army, told the stonemasons that they should rebuild the capitol out of civic pride and not want money. But the stonemasons were big fans of not starving to death so they slowly turned to banditry
While becoming thieves and killing innocent people just because they are "for Stormwind"
It's twisted for comedic effect, but it's overall on point, no need to talk about the fact that they didn't get paid because the elite of the city got manipulated by a dragon etc etc
"stone by stone, Stormwind shall fall"
ESO should have been part of this video.
You should try Guild Wars 2 one of these days, it's a pretty good game and I would love to hear your takeaways from it.
great vid but kind of strange to complain about WoW not providing enough motivation to read the quest text after intentionally installing an addon which is explicitly for people who don't want to read the quest text
I think what separates the Runescape quest experience from other MMOs is that the runescapes quests aren't really MMO quests at all. They're way more similar to 90s/00s point and click adventure games, complete with a lot of the madman logic which is required for completing those type of games. And it makes sense, because in a lot of ways Runescape is also a 00s point and click adventure game.
Whereas most MMOs base their quest design around fetch, escort and 'kill X number of Y monster's. Runescape's quest design is often based more on puzzle solving, whether it be using certain items on objects or other items, or just straight up puzzles, some of which can be solved with a guide, and some of which are designed so you will still have to do some thinking for yourself even if you're using a guide.
It can be a frustrating style of quest design because puzzles can often take more time, effort, and trial and error than 'kill x', but it really does set runescape's quest design apart from just about any other MMO.
A different video I watched put it best:
Runescape uses the word "quest" the way Tolkien uses the word "Quest".
I.E. your quest is to slay a Dragon that destroyed an island. In order to do so you have to go on a f2p world wide hunt for a map, get a ship, obtain a special shield, and then go slay a dragon.
I find they also use a mixture of the old Adventure Game Logic mixed with Real World Knowledge. For example, in Recruitment Drive, there's one room that requires you to unlock two doors. At first you might think its a standard adventure game puzzle where you try out weird combos. But its not, its based somewhat on irl stuff.
You are literally making plaster, Gypsim and water, to make an imprint of a key, then using copper and tin to make bronz.
The door handle from a shovel part? Cupric Sulfate, also known as copper sulfate, has an interesting reaction with iron. The iron ends up coated in copper.
In game terms, the metal has technically expanded due to a new copper coating on the shovel.
@@intelpntium quality comment, I was probably a bit sweeping in saying it was all point and click madman logic. Because you're definitely right that a decent amount of the items/actions in quests do make more sense than a lot of adventure game logic. To this day I have not seen an MMO that comes remotely close to Runescape in quest design like that though regardless
WoW actually ends up having some (maybe kinda earthshattering) main storylines, but very few, and you only encounter them very late level. Some of them come in the form of raid attunement - a string of very difficult quests that will take you through multiple dungeons to unlock the ability to enter a raid. The one for Onyxia's Lair, for example, will take you through all kinds of quests relating to the black dragonflight, and finally rescuing a hero from one of the end game dungeons, only for him to reveal that the Mother of the black dragonflight is Lady Kastrana Prestor - the main advisor of the king of Stormwind! You find out she has been manipulating the alliance behind the scenes for many years, and she was actually THE REASON THEY DIDNT PAY THE STONEMASONS, just to sow more conflict. You go face her and accuse her, and she turns into an enormous black dragon and summons dragonkin guards in the middle of Stormwind, that will actually anyone stupid enough to interfere. She teleports out and says something like "Come face me at my lair", and if that ain't one of the coolest reasons to go into a raid, idk what is.
holy shit they actually wrote that and thought it was good? are wow writers like six years old? why wouldn't she kill you on the spot rather than giving away the location of her lair?
Swtor will always be one of my favourite MMOs. It does a lot bad for an MMO, but damn are the stories top tier. It's easily one of those MMOs enjoyed by single player rpg players as well, cause it just feels like Kotor. But definitely think it would've been better as a full single player rpg, or a full mmo. The mashup it is has issues
I've heard that a lot but I still never really understood it and I mailed that game for 10 years. It has group content, pvp, raiding.... what's it missing that other mmos have?
@@JJJBunney001a reason to play with other players
It's one of those "trust me bro, it's going to be fun playing with your friends after 40 hours of doing things that have nothing to do with the content you want to do with your friends" type of game
It's very much a RPG you can play in coop, but it's already way too easy when playing alone soooo... why wouldn't you just play alone ?
Back in the day SWTOR was absolutely goated. Nowadays its a shell of its former self, but back then it was easily one of if not the best MMO on the market.
I think you’d like Guild Wars 2. The “massive multiplayer online” aspect is real, and organic.
RuneScape 3 has some amazing quests. Would love to see you try some out :)
They did questing right, both rs3 and osrs have some hilarious questlines. Like the gender reversed Rapunzel had me absolutely dying with laughter just cuz of how absurd the beard was.
@@Michael-hw3vj Totally agreed, I'm going through RS3's endgame quests now (just finished extinction last night) and some of these quests are good enough to be in like, Baldur's Gate 3. Really top notch stuff. Also RS3 is worth getting into IF ONLY to experience any quest that Thok is in. Thok is the funniest character I've ever seen in an mmo.
RS(3)'s lore in general is IMO one of the most compelling lore universes in the world. Maybe it's been done before and I'm just showing my ignorance here, but their usage of the gods and how they interact with the world and each other is just such a unique take on the concept of gods to me. The fact that the myriad of gods were banished from the world by a literal god of balance who simply wanted mortals to live on their own and deal with their own issues, even the truly abhorrent kind such as murder and the like, was a more interesting take on gods within universes than many other game stories. It's just refreshing, really.
I really like how Guild Wars 2 approaches quests. You get your normal msq that leads to various locations, but it doesn't have side quests there. Instead, each map offers a number of systems that happen on location, and you just participate when running by. No quests, no kill X mobs to progress.
Also lots of open world meta events, which feel like big quests
I've been wondering when a content creator was eventually gonna cover this topic, more MMOs need to look at RuneScape and Guild Wars 2 for quest design. Those who care about the lore and stories in MMOs are sick of the 'Kill X and collect Y' quests.
SWTOR used to have challenge. KOTFE killed it by making companions overpowered and nerfing all overworld mobs.
SWTOR used to have quest reward choices like the multiple gear things (For example on hutta you'd see two bounty hunter pieces, one tank, one dps, and one agent piece), and that got killed by KOTFE with a standardization of all rewards and stats, you will only see the tank piece if you're a class who has a tank spec.
SWTOR actually used to have people partying all the time, you'd group up in a duo and blaze through an entire quest area and you'd both just do your own class quest solo. They killed that by that aforementioned nerf and now it's literally trolling to play in a party ever.
Have I mentioned KOTFE ruined everything? Because this is the tip of the iceberg.
13:15 there is an Add-on that uses "AI" to "voice-over" all of the Quest text (like a better "text-to-speech") to help with that problem
I think it's important to note that FFXIV's side quests have another thing to consider: the job system. In other games, like SWTOR, you make a new character to try out a new job or class. In FFXIV, your character can swap to another job but *still* needs to level it - and that's a great time to do the side quests, as the MSQ helps you level your main.
The quest chain for the Deadmines is actually a bit different. They were not paid by Lady Prestor, the child king advisor, which later when you do the quest to attune for the raid, happens to be Onyxia, Deathwings daughter, and this was her plan to divide and conquer.
Mama Mia! I could kill 15 boar and collect 10 red silken bandanas all day. I love mindless mmo quests I can listen to a podcast or watch a video while completing.
You're actually a talented speaker and good content creator. Sadly, for a game & genre that's not wildy popular in the grand scheme of content overall. But definitely enjoy the way you speak
He covers many different MMOs and those games have or had millions of players, it's not like he's doing niche Indy games
The remark about classic wow questing feelings “cozy” as ocarina of time music hits was spot on. The way it leads you through the world is great i have tons of nostalgia for those old zones. Also just got to rewards section, havent heard the wow section again but like 15 years ago when i was a noob at rpgs and just enjoying wandering through the world playing sub optimally, some of the quest reward gear was extremely satisfying… what warrior doesnt remember whirlwind axe.
in early swtor i remember grouping up for quests often - especially the the HEROIC 2+ or 4+ quests that were basically impossible to solo - they were like open world dungeons kind of
Yeah it’s a victim of the playerbase dwindling and said content becoming inaccessible
WoW Classic is funny that it became the standard, but it was all an accident. IIRC, when listening to the devs talk in the lead up to CLassic coming back. The questing was created just as a means to hide grinding. They assumed that the players would just be grinding mobs for levels.
Because that was how most MMOs were back then
"Here's some mobs so you can grind xp, have fun killing the ennemy faction"
I'm curious how far you got into FFXIV? The original game was pretty standard, but there is quite the shift in the main story line quest design once you reach Heasvensward and by Shadowbringers it's really unrecognizable. I guess there are still fetch / kill quests, but they feel far better integrated into the story in my opinion.
It's a trash cutscene simulator
why didn't funny man beat 4 mmo's in a month!?!????
@@lv100Alice I was just asking how far he got is all. Not sure why everything needs to be taken so negatively.
FFXIV starts out with it's worst content, it's not ideal, but it's sort of understandable given how time works. They made vast improvements to the game over the years, specifically to the main story quest lines. The first 50lvls are pretty generic and dull compared to like Shadowbringers which was my personal favorite MMO experience in terms of questing. The voice acting and such picks up and gets really damn good, but also the pacing improves and the world building improves, villains get better, all that.
So, just wanted to know how far in he made it to see what he was basing his experience and critique on.
@@xarbinchaoticneutral1785 I personally like long cutscenes, lore, character development and stuff like that, but understand it is not for everyone. I found myself very emotionally invested in the story, but only after Heavensward.
@oliverbleich1447 I played since ARR launch. I don't think the game is bad but I legit dgaf about the story. I skipped every single cutscene. The way ff14 conveys its story is legit 80% 'tell don't show'. Therefore even if raid and class design is good, it will always be F tier questing. At least in ARR you had hunting logs and levequests but it became a bland way point cutscene traveler
please dont make that noise idyl
I need someone to do a deep dive on RS3 quests. Like someone to make a chronological quest series for RS3. I cannot be asked or bothered to play RS3 but I'm super intrested in the RS3 quests.
How fun a quest is directly correlates to how difficult it is. More difficult = more fun. I've noticed this playing both retail and Classic WoW recently.
*Retail Quest - "Go click 12 items"* ... Mindnumbingly boring. There is no chance of failure whatsoever. You can just run in and 1v10 the entire pack of mobs, click the items, and run back to turn it in. It's busy work and sucks.
*Classic Quest - "Go click 12 items"* ... Here the goal is the exact same. However, you will slowly, carefully infiltrate the enemy camp to get the items and then get the hell out. You have to come prepared, with food/water. You have carefully consider where to stand, where to pull an enemy to, and how not to aggro that extra gnoll and die. It's an adventure, like a spec ops mission. You are always considering your tactics
Death is much more likely, so that profession you have been working on will actually come in handy -- that engineering bomb that does only like 22 damage might actually be the difference between life and death when you are out of mana.
The whole experience is way harder and that actually makes it much better. Also, the difficulty of questing improves the rest of the game too -- because questing is harder, rewards are harder to come by, it feels like more of an epic win to get an item because you aren't constantly getting them, stuff actually has more value overall.
classic wow isn't hard at all.. hence why people are doing Hardcore.
@@jaredmcclure1730 Nice. Great take. I didn't say it was "hard" gamer. I said quests were much harder, and I gave specific reasons as to why. Is any of that stuff incorrect?
Guild Wars 2 is my favorite questing. Besides story quests which are only a hand full of instances every 10 levels, you walk close enough to the npc, dont have to talk to them, and have multiple options on completing the quest. You wann kill? Go kill things to fill the bar. Dont wanna kill? Go interact with somethings to fill the bar. Kinda wanna kill? Do a mixture of both, they both fill up the same bar.
GW2 heart quests made me quit GW2. They were incredibly shallow and all felt like filler busy work. They aren’t even close to a well made side quest, you usually just end up running around in a small area killing, gathering , or talking for each one. They practically have no story, mostly flavor text, the fact there were no actual side quests made the world feel empty and dead
Funny, cause most side quests make worlds feel artificial and dead for me. @@7secondhero842
Ffxiv questing in a nutshell is read endless slog for 3-4 hours cause ThE sToRy Is So GoOd and then fight 3 mobs that spawn in a purple ring that can't even hurt you.
There were entire play sessionsin ff 14(2-4 hours) where I didn't do anything, only ability used was sprint. It made me realize I actually enjoy WoW questing. It gets you to engage with the core loop of the game, combat. Yeah in wow they're repetitive and mindless, but im playing because I like the mechanics of the game and the quests allow me to actually use the mechanics of the game.
Plus every once in a while in WoW you run into a really fun and unique quest and it hits so much harder, like stumbling on "The Day Deathwing Came".
honestly as an experienced MMO enjoyer i've realized starting a new MMO you have to escape the 'i want to be OP right now' to 'i am going to enjoy the ride and chill' it was hard at first but i just started gw2 in 2024 and i am loving the ride rather than saying to myself 'i need to learn the meta, i need to learn every mechanic, i need to (insert MMO blurb here)' i'm saying 'i'm going to kick back and enjoy the experience and learn along the way.' in a sense i am just a new MMO player which is a wild feeling (having over 25k hours in ESO.)
SWTOR used to be much, much harder. Where you needed friends to finish content. About five, or six years ago they revamped the companions, and made the leveling very single player.
Funnily enough, the best quests in wow classic are the "Kill x mobs" quests.
I just wish Blizzard would have _some_ passion left for wow (they clearly don't). They could have done so much with classic HC, but they did the bare minimum just to satisfy the HC community and milk their remaining player base out of money.
Those quests were some of the most fun memories people have of these games.
So I think you're wrong in a way.
Yes, they're mundane. I don't think they're a waste though. I think they're a necessary part of a good MMORPG foundation.
You can skip it. It will make things less mundane. I don't think it will make the game better though.
FFXIV for sure needs more work on the early game. While it doesn't forgive the rough start, it is a remnant of an old rushed reboot of a failed MMO.
The main/class story doesn't need a rework (they did cut down a lot several years ago), but moreso the flow. Put a few quests objectives in one quest, put multiple cutscenes together in one.
Then again the voice acting could need a replacement.. it's a drastic difference from even the first expansion- when they realized they could actually afford to hire proper VAs.
It shouldn't take 20+ hours for a game to become good. While I don't think FFXIV's start is incredibly bad or boring, it does build up to something amazing.
While that buildup may be boring to some, I think world building only improves the all important link it has to the story!
I mentioned DDO in the last MMO video but I think it would have been interesting in this conversation. All quests in instances? Scaling difficulties for every quest? Lots of complex objectives since it isn't overworld, and pretty much every one is meant to be done in a small group
Only the president of MMORPGs could know I was WoW classic questing while watching this
i started playing wow in 2007 and i thought its all about exploring the world, lvling up, gearing up, getting high rated in pvp and doings a few dungeons and raids for fun with your casual no skill friends. during 2015 i joined a facebookgroup about wow and then i regularly saw people talking about the story of the game. it took me 8years to find out that there is a weird ass story to the game, since i always skipped every cutscene and never read a single quest text. if a quest was unclear and i couldnt figure out what to do in less then 30seconds i immediately went on youtube to see how to complete it.
I wish retail WoW let you pick from a set of rewards like classic WoW. But they removed that from retail years ago...
What do you mean? Like multiple options of rewards? Because yeah you can do that in retail
@@JJJBunney001 You only see options that are meant for your class. You cannot see every option that is a award and it's been like that for a long time. It's really bad on older quests where you just won't even get a reward if it doesn't have anything for your class.
Like a quest could award boots for every armor type but you only see your primary armor type as a choice. The others are hidden so you don't make a 'wrong' choice.
Doing Rag the Boneman 2 in osrs while watching this. Probably the worst quest in the game so far for me, just "kill X of monster Y, repeat for 27 monster" and then sit at a campfire cleaning the bones, just to turn it all in after 4 hours for 5k prayer XP and a couple cosmetic items.
the thing i love about eso is that even though the quest rewards are garbage and just get deconstructed or used for research and the fights are piss easy as a solo player and i can solo all of it while standing still and only pressing left click, players (myself included) still love questing. the stories are just that great, almost every quest has you doing something unique and interesting and there's almost no "kill x number of monsters" quests (if a quest asks you to do that, it's usually just a part of the quest, which will then ask you to do something interesting after, like gathering clothes off enemies for a disguise before inflitrating the camp). so many quests also not only tell great stories that get referenced in other quests later, but have you make actually difficult decisions quite often, such as whether to let someone live or die, or if they should be banished or executed, stuff like that. a lot of them are actually difficult decisions that there's usually no right or wrong answer to, and they really make you consider your morals or the morals of your character
FF14 you really need to be DEEP into Story driven games. Like those unimportant, tedious Mainstory Quests, those NPC's you meet most likely come up later in the MSQ again and be like "Ohh hey Main Character, long time no see, thanks again for saving me back then!" - so apart from just padding questing and leveling time they add a tiny bit of that in there.
I personally loved it when I met characters I defeated or saved at level 15 or sth xD
But that's not for everyone I do agree!
Oh, I know what quest points are. They are how much Juna is entertained by your stories, and therefore how long you get to collect Guthix' tears.
I joined WoW at the end of WotLK and I got HOOKED! I tried numerous times to get into Classic when it launched and the delivery of the story was my only issue. Over the years I had played ESO and SWTOR and I fell deep in love with voice acting in my MMOs. That being said, I actually recently actually got into WoW Classic ONLY because there is an addon that uses AI to add voice dialogue for all quests in Classic. I am hoping it eventually expands to Retail but I know that is a BIG ask. But seriously, I cant recommend the VoiceOver addon for Classic enough!
I'm going to say this as a mythic raider in World of Warcraft. Quests are a waste of time to hardcore players, and players who just want to do raids/dungeons/PvP. Quests are crucial for casual players and new players. I remember my first time running around in Teldrassil as a feral druid. I had no idea what numbers were, much less stats. I thought any time I obtained a new item, it was an upgrade no matter what. I was one hell of a feral druid, running around in gray cloth items or greens that had int. That initial period of getting over the sensory overload is so important to people who are brand new to MMOs, or even just people who are getting used to WoW's UI and basic mechanics. The GCD, for instance.
Now what I don't approve of is forcing hardcore players to screw around with quests to get shit done. I'm glad Dragonflight has added so many robust skips and honestly I'm really impressed by it. However, the story of Dragonflight is still embarrassing and for the most part, I see no other reason to engage with quests other than story. I really doubt new players care about the story either. WoW needs to go back to the drawing board when it comes to how they approach quests. Not the skipping part, but the quests themselves. The dialogue is boring, the story is below amateur, and nearly all of the characters have no flair or charm. It's like eating cardboard.
I don't think quests should be removed. I'm always excited about things that will hopefully hook and retain casuals and new players. But I don't think the quests are currently doing a good job of that and that sucks. Keep the world populated in fun ways, please!
in swtor the enemies used to deal way more damage when the game first came out. over the years they dumbed the game down so the enemies werent a challenge at all and the main storyline mission gives you enough xp to progress without having to do any of the side quests and heroic quests. you used to need to do heroic quests with other players because the main story would leave you underlevelled.
To comment on the Bowfa / keris partisan rewards being locked behind quests - FFXIV has this also, towards the end game.
There are lots of quests for jobs and dungeons and gear and drops that are locked behind main story quests that aren't a direct reward for any one quest.
BOWFA DEEZ NUTS
What's tough about FFXIV's story questlines, is that while the meandering about aspect never completely goes away, you can tell they got much better at quest design and storyline as the game goes on. The story quests from the base game are way more mundane than those in the later expansions.
I like classic wow, because of the fact that it felt low fantasy, it felt like you were a proper adventurer, crawling through a cave with a torch, anything can kill you, nowadays you ain't an adventurer, you're a godslayer who can bend reality to his will and that is just mundane, and somehow despite what were once long journeys becoming flying through the world in 2 minutes or clicking on a portal, low level or high. And the classic world is only so limited, that the heroic journey, just becomes a repetitive trail
I don't call TOR or FFXIV mmorpgs. They're single player story games with a multiplayer feature tacked on.
Runescape and Classic WoW are mmorpgs, they're made for multiplayer experiences.
Studio-made MMORPGs that were developed after 2012 are just another blend of WoW Retail (Wrath and Cata forward) all tried to follow the success of WoW at its peak sales, where it then started to slowly transform away from being a *multiplayer* experience and became slowly a singleplayer game with multiplayer MMA-narrated dungeons (taking away all the ambience that was inspired by DnD and replacing it with generic overdramatized cartoon themes)
Play WoW Classic or Runescape without a guide, you'll see how the experience is drastically different to something like FFXIV or TOR where you're guided until the story ends, then there is no game left.
WoW Classic is just an open-ended sandbox with stories and great ambience. We won't get games like these again from large studios because every lead director out there can't even understand the roots of fantasy games or have never even heard of DnD.
OSRS has some great quest design especially a lot of most recent releases but a lot of the classic and early rs2 era a very primitive and chock full of 90's adventure game design where you need to interact with everybody and everything to progress, bring random unspecified items and have only the vaguest of hints to progress
I like WoW Classic to vibe. It is one of the few MMO’s where even at a high level you can listen to music or a podcast and perform optimally. I’d wear a headset and jump on Disc for a raid or if friends wanted to talk during a dungeon, but that’s about it. One problem with WoW retail is that the quests are so simplistic they’re worthless. I could have my 5 year old just fly around and complete them if I wanted, just using 2-3 skills. On the flip side, Mythic+ dungeons usually require you to listen for Audio ques and at a high enough level to definitely use voice communication. WoW Classic is what I think most people want in an MMO. It is social, as you play with random people and make friends often. You’re forced to, and it’s nice in the end. Yet it’s laid back enough that you can chill while doing the quests, and the dungeons are a challenge without being hectic like in Retail.
Being the president of MMOs is a harder job than US president but you get more influence internationally in return.
Even though OSRS doesnt have quest grouping... I still did DS2 with a friend! sure we werent sharing cutscenes or even instances..
Yet it was pretty fun to go through the quest together, facing everything side by side and solving our puzzles together
I don't remember the game, but it basically didn't have quests, you had something like an statistics/achievement system where you just went in the world and explored, opened, clicked, talked to and killed beings. Everything you did was logged in the achievement section (f.e. killed x amount of y, where x would have reward increasing steps of 1, 5, 10, 50, 100, 500, 1000 and similar) and awarded you rewards like xp, gold, gear and similar things. When you talked to npcs they sometimes had a wish or "quest" but you never accepted it, you just did it and you got rewarded. Also when you did something and later found someone who wanted that you would just get the reward.
The game was made like a mobile game and bad overall, but the "quest" system was nice.
pretty sure your talking about guildwars 2 or a game that copied its questing system.
TBH, 1 great adition for MMOs about quests is The Elder Scrolls online, probably the best one...
Always look forward to your videos. You've earned a sub. :) Thanks, J2mmy.
30:43 dude, quest points are TOTALLY useful.. each of them gives 0.6 seconds longer to click on some weird blue things on a wall once per week!!
AQ3D: Kill 500 boars, 500 of some other thing, 500 of another thing. Rewards: Scraps
I just want to say that you're clearly a man of taste. Playing priest in wow classic is so good. It's way more busted than most people realize. And shadow is a gigachad in pvp. You literally melt people and there's nothing they can do about it.
I'm loving the content branch-out!
Next time you do a RuneLite plugin video, can you PLEASE make a plugin that replaces the TOB music with Kamakeen's "Theater of Blood - Oldschool Runescape Metal Cover"?
I think Slayer is nice in Runey because it feels really honest, if you just want to kick back & slam some goons while it still feels like your progressing towards something slayer is there & for something more demanding of your attention questing is always a solid option.
Completed A Small Favour recently, getting the key ring as it's reward felt dope af.
Thanks for the upload!
Questing and story is what gets me hooked and staying in an MMO. Games like BDO that are all combat and by far the worst story and questing experience of any MMO out there has always left me feeling empty and ultimately uncaring about the game as a whole. With all the warts that WoW has, it's the only universe (besides FF14) that I have ever cared about in all the MMOs I've played. I haven't mainlined WoW for years and yet I still keep up with the lore because it's so compelling to me.
FFXIV's mainstory scenario for ARR is a bit of a slog until ya get to about the halfway point with MSQ for the expansion (which in total, iirc is like 180+ quests?). It's not uncommon for a lot of new players to just skip cutscenes for ARR MSQ until you meet The Scions of the Seventh Dawn.
Given what Square Enix is doin' when it comes to reworkin' older content (dungeons, duties, etc.), I'm kinda hopin' they go back to give the first half of ARR's MSQ some love too! The game has been through A LOT since 1.0, and ARR (plus the incredible Yoshi-P) managed to save the entire game. So it feels kinda owed that it gets a rework to bring it up to the amazing standards of the other expansions.
I was so baffled that the sponsor wasn't Brilliant. SNHU is advertising through... An MMO TH-camr?
I’m Final Fantasy XIV, there’s multiple beginning quests. The class you choose affects what region you start off in first and the beginning quest story will be completely different.
Some are good, in places.
I've played wow, runescape, gw2.
And have always found the same problem.
The questing is so boring, because I mostly play solo.
It's hard to find a consistent, chill group to play with.
The entire game feels like a job/chore and has since everquest.
I've had the most fun with new world, because it felt like I could do more than just quest or have a job.
I could take things at my own pace and relax.
I have nostalgia, but I don't let it blind me into thinking older mmos were any better than current ones.
Rose-tinted glasses are one hell of a drug
Something about wow classic:
Rewards are uneven, and sometimes a leather piece at the end of a shorter questline will be the best reward for heavy armor users for 12 levels. Usually theres a better drop off a boss, but it's sick to sometimes get a reward that is way stronger than it has any right to be. You feel pike you got a huge bonus and not some focus tested percentile upgrade to drip feed engagement forever.
UO didn't have quests. The community created "quests" themselves, especially in RP Freeshards.
One of the worst things of later years are daily quests to make you log in daily because they can't seem to make the game interesting enough for you wanting to log in and play it. The "don't miss out" design mentality.
I was literally WoW Classic questing when he yelled at me for not focusing on him 😂
I think Demon Slayer is also a good example of Runescape's early quests. You're tasked with defeating a demon that's being summoned by some evil wizards, and in order to do so you need to get a magic sword. You have to collect 3 keys to open the case the sword is sealed in. You talk to an npc for one, solve a simple puzzle for another, and kill a bunch of enemies for the last one. Then you get the sword and go fight the demon, ultimately banishing it with an incantation you learn from the quest-giver.
Your reward for the quest? You get to keep the magic demon-slaying sword you earned! And it actually is more powerful against demons than other weapons with similar stats!
wow that sounds boring as fuck
I remember Everquest questing where you had to literally type shit to npcs and certain words would trigger the next conversation.
I do think if anything classic wow does well is to be honoured, its good rememberable quest rewards. As a rogue getting your blue sword from completing the scarlet monastery quest lines feels like great pay off for the effort you put in to get there to see that tab of 4 shine rewards to choose from. In classic wow a lot of quest rewards feel like milestones as you grow to learn which quests offer a bit upgrade, maybe one that will last you the entire leveling process (light of Elune on HC realms is a great example)
PS - I was lying, as a rogue I never pick the sword I go with black malice from that quest line im a dagger boi and thats just how i roll :)
13:54 As funny as this joke is, it does make a lot of sense!
Without Slayer, the most efficient way to train combat skills in RuneScape would be to just kill the same monster type thousands of times. Slayer adds some much needed variety to this while also giving you a bunch of great additional rewards, which makes it a lot more enjoyable. Many players already seem to prefer combat over skilling so Slayer easily becomes their favourite skill, even if it's essentially just "kill x" quests.
Meanwhile if you want to do quests you're generally just looking to make progress in the story, so any trivial task that doesn't meaningfully contribute to the experience feels like a complete waste of time.
Guild Wars 2 players be like: A quest? What even is that?
For someone who only played WoW and FFXIV waaay after their launch(I played WoW 3 years ago), I can say that I like the way that FFXIV introduces an expansion better than it.
Yeah I know it doesnt exactly have to do with quests, but it totally does.
In WoW, the expansions are a continuation of the main quest, but if you choose a race/class from said expansion you are thrown in the middle of the story with no context about what happened before. To a new player like me, it was overwhelming. For that reason, I didn't get any attachment to the quest plot and didn't bought the last expansion(except mists of pandaria, I liked that one). Also while I understand that some veteran players would like to buy some level X skips, its counter-intuitive to pay to not play the game.
That doesnt happen in FFXIV, in it the main quest or the main quest of an early DLC is a pre-requisite to said main quest.
And yeah, the quests are boooring until the start of the first expansion, then they get progressively better in ways of plot(except dawntrail, its pretty bland), also sometimes they bring back old characters from early content that fit right in and don't feel forced in the narrative.
Still, everyone agrees about the order of how good those quests are(in that order): Shadowbringers, Endwalker, Heavensward, Stormblood, Dawntrail and the base game quests.
Guild Wars 2 does this wonderfully, you go around in a heart npc : killing stuff, interacting with things, collecting mcguffins and turning them in, etc. It all contributes to a single "quest", so you can approach it the way you like, you also don't have to interact with the "quest" npc if you are just speedrunning it.
Also most of the map content is dynamic, maps progress with meta events and the best part? No one is competing for kills, nodes or event items, it's all individual credit (even kill participation can be shared by players equally)
I've been playing it since the Path of Fire launch (Sep 2017), and I can tell you one thing with 100% certainty, the ONLY thing holding GW2 back is the dogshit writing for story. It's insane how such a great game has a history with writers being the absolute worst, most entitled garbage humans ever. Thankfully the worst ones are gone, but the cancer story they grew still needs a lot of operating on.
runescape quests were designed like point and click adventure games, but forgets that in those games you usually have every item youve ever collected on you at all times.
I appreciate your change in content and hope you find lots of success with it.
I'd love to hear what you have to say about RS3 and WoW Retail quests
I was trying to do quests with the only thing I use quest huide for was what items to bring.
Then I ran into the one with the teleportation delivery service whatever thing in ardougne and when I got fed up trying to figure out what to do and looked at a guide and it told me to talk to someone for whom I wouldn't have ever known to talk to that was when I decided to give up and just use quest helper for the rest of my journey through quests at the time.
I still took my time to read stuff and appreciate dialogue as much as I could, though. Mamma mia
32:05 darn he really just said that as I'm leveling my rogue in classic wow, I then alt tabed to type this and almost got killed by a naga.
It's titles and subjects like this one that makes me wish I could still see the like-dislike ratio on vids. :)
Thanks for another great vid Idyl.
I have avoided doing any master quests on my UIM until I max (currently 2.18k total) because I find Mod Ed's approach to writing fantasy beyond insufferable. I have legitimately avoided Monkey Madness 2 since release and every GM quest on that account because I detest his flavour of imagination so much that I am not prepared to smash those quests out until I have consolidated all of my stored herblore exp and dropped all the items I won't need for post-max PVM so I have as much invent space as possible to spend the least amount of time completing them as possible.
That’s one of the main complaints about FF14 is the writing in ARR is mostly fluff. Almost every experienced player will tell you to get through ARR because the expansions have some of the best writing in MMOs.
Questing needs to be worth it both lore , gearing & progression, and the gear needs to look epic based on the level of difficulty of the quest. I agree with your take 100% and mad respect.