Hollowtech 2 cranksets fail because there is a chemical reaction between the alloy of the crank and the bb axle which is typically steel - put water on the joint and you effectively have a battery. Make it salt water (think UK salted roads) and it's even worse. The reaction degrades both the alloy and the adhesive. It's just simple science which, unfortunately, Shimano ignored...
They don't fail at the spindle joint: they fail along the bond line between the outer shell and the spider. I suggest that talking off the top of your head about this makes you look a dill.
If your explanation was somehow true, ALL Hollowtech cranks will eventually fail, and also many others brands since the steel/aluminium composite is fairly common in cranks machining. This is not the case, the failure affects Dura ace and Ultegra only, and the failure in question is the two-piece design, with two separate clamshell sections that are bonded together to form a single hollow structure. When that bond joint failed, the whole arm basically just felt apart.
You kids missed a few. Us older riders might remember Shimano airlines, Rapid rise and ,sadly, Suntour accushift....and there's nothing wrong with Biopace...
I’m see a lot of biopaces on my stand at the community lbs I wrench at because we get old bikes and fix ‘em up. It’s really common that the front mech is adjusted to the ring’s lowest, not highest point in the oval, so the mech rubs and grooves the big ring. Also, when I test-ride one I’ve refurbished, the oval is clearly not aligned with the crank for max power. Totally agree about Rapid Demise - I think the early mtb years threw a lot of spaghetti at the wall seeing what would stick. So many whack frames made it into production!
Sigh accushift. The last edition were really bad because you could not switch to Friction due to patent issues. I still want to try out some wing commanders on my Frankenstein bike.
I have a set of NOS Delta brakes (final edition) on my Tommasini Velocista with Potenza Ergopower levers. They are awesome! NOS sets are in the range of $1,000.
To be fair to Campagnolo, Shimano ax brakes were pretty ordinary too. Mine gave up on a long descent and put me in hospital. Likewise ax cranks with the matching pedals which used to crack and break at the bearing.
The Delta brake bashing can stop. I can easily lock up my wheels with the 5-pivot delta design, and it seems most people bashing them have never ridden them, + it seems pros in the late 80s / early 90s didn't have too many problems racing on them. They were a pita to install (the cable), but once installed, they performed well with excellent modulation.
Shimano 600 and Dura Ace AX brakes now they were bad, along with the Modolo Kronos brakes they were probably Campagnolo's inspiration for the Delta's, centre-pull aero. The AX brakes had blocks that you couldn't adjust, for 1982 both groupsets looked very futuristic.
Never had any issues with Delta brakes even on steep downhills. I never really heard any Pro Riders saying they had brake failure. Yes there weight was more an issues. Like many things the Delta issues have become much of an overblown myth over the passing decades.
Man, the worst failures possible are always pedals, cranks, or anything that will leave hou with no support on your feet suddenly. Back in my walmart-ish bike time i used to bend cranks and pedals like crazy, i'm glad i have found DH and enduro eventually or i would still be replacing cranks every two years and pedals once a year.
When I was in Training in a big bike store we still had original Shimano SPD-R pedals in stock. - that was is 2017/2018. SPD-R got canceled in arround 2004. So yes it sold badly.
Years ago (mid 80s) I was in a bike shop in Phoenix or Mesa AZ that had a large collection of vintage bikes. There was a bike from around 1920 that had an oval chain ring.
8:45 sloppy research. It was only the Ultegra bonded cranksets that failed: the 11 speed 8000 series have 0 problems in this regard, as did Dura Ace Hollowtech of any vintage, as they were either welded together, or centrifugally cast, then forged.
One not so brilliant Shimano product I have fond memories of is the Positron group set. The rear derailleur had no spring, and instead relied on a stiff shifter wire that could both pull and push. Five speed indexing was built in to the rear derailleur, fully exposed to road debris.
Yes, I worked on the Positron equipped bikes back in the early 1980s. It was found on department store bikes. Shimano did decide not to abandon index shifting though and instead of trying to make the tech “trickle up” from the cheap components, they started SIS on their top components and let it trickle down.
I know first hand why the Delta brakes had a braking issue. I wrote the internal report on the functional safety issue. It was originally intended to be just a time trail brake. I came up with a way around the 'failure' issue that prevents that brake failure. I know what happened to the engineer who oversaw and certified the masterful design. He experienced the Italian resignation. Those brakes are just a collector item these days. Look at the Shimano Dura Ace AX crank and pedals, interesting and innovative but not practical. Cinelli came out with the M-71 clipless pedals back in the 1970's. They had no toeclip or strap. They required reaching down and unlocking by hand to get out which cyclists thought was suicidal. But, those were intended for track racing only, where any release during the race means you loose.
I remember seeing pics of those Cinelli pedals way back when they were first released. It seems they were designed and marketed towards track Match Sprinters mostly. Then there was Aussie Pro Match Sprint World Champion John Nicholson who actually BOLTED his shoes onto the pedals, and had to tie his laces while on the start line, or right before then. (Yes kiddies, there was actually a time when there were no BOA mechanisms to hunker down your shoes, and we used laces, as well as totally non-adjustable cleats, NAILED into the hard leather outer soles.) 😉
"I wrote the internal report on the functional safety issue" PM me, pls? We must have met in Vicenza in 86. Antonio Romano and Marcel Angot were still there, then.
ALL those carbon frames with the built-in seat posts, that you can cut ONLY ONCE: [1] well if you over-cut . . . use your imagination! [2] might not fit a potential buyer
Nothing wrong with the oval chainrings: Froome and Wiggins were using and winning on O-symmetric ones (different angle than Biopace though). But they are just not for everyone. As for the Delta brakes, the issue is that they were getting stronger as the brake pads wears off due to the mechanism geometry which then offered a very high leverage. So they were engineeringly flawed, and needlessly engineered and heavy, but not weak. By the way Fignon won the tour de France on them, and lost to Lemon on them for 8sec.
I agree about the Biopace, terrible idea. Campy's bottom brackets that unscrewed while you rode. I had the miserable early Campy Athena group that was impossible to keep shifting correctly. And, even though this is only about Shimano and Campagnolo, the absolute worse bit of bike gear I had was the first issue of the Sampson clipless pedals that were nearly impossible to unclip without reaching down and grabbing your heel and jerking it to the side.
Campag BBs that unscrewed as you rode didn't, if they were properly installed - or, at least, no more so than any other Italian threaded bottom bracket. Like all Italian BBs (right-hand thread both sides of the BB shell), they needed to be in threads that were clean and in good condition and the drive-side cup needed to be done up *tight*, or, in the case of the Campagnolo sealed bearing units, the cups needed to be properly torqued against each other. It was by no means unique to Campagnolo, simply because it's a basic property of mounting a bearing inside a threaded component - it's been understood for at least a120 years. In the bicycle trade, the Wright brothers (who were bicycle mechanics and makers before they built the world's fist powered aircraft), pioneered the use of a LH threaded gearside bearing cup in the BB and LH pedal, because they were aware of the problem.
Shimano has never manned up to the horrible disasters caused by their hollow crank failures! It's documented. In fact there is actually a website for that!
Shimano has been denying it for some time, if I'm not mistaken. They just decided to send out replacements but didn't make much change. They just decided to address it for the latest version of their groupsets.
TWO THINGS BIOPACE which l still have but but remounted one click clockwise with no issues other than chain drop from my 1x so l got a smaller 44t NW round chainring (still have the 28T inside to catch/bailout gear for any climbs) AND THE HOLLOWTECH which l m glad not have on my other bike which l have ye old ULTEGRA FORGED CRANKS 130 BCD 50/39 WITH OCTALINK :) NO WORRIES HERE !!
Is SRAM just not as big as i thought it was or are we just missing a company entirely? Also best way to not fall off a bike at a stop: flat pedals. I can't tell you how many times I beat someone off the line from a stop because I can just stomp on the pedals with little care and then adjust on the 3rd or 4th stroke while they are futzing with the clips or getting their shoe to snap in.
Delta brakes with 5 pivots work perfectly and cable routing wasn't really a problem back then, whereas today it definately is. Biopace chainrings were the precursors of contemporary Rotor Q-Rings, both unnecessary but still. Yes, the first version of campagnolo's Titanium square taper bottom brackets were prone to fail, but the "development of splined hollow bottom brackets" had absolutely nothing to do with it. Square taper BB are working just fine. PD-7700 SPD-R pedals were a nightmare on the road, but track racers loved them for a reason so it is save to assume that your shoe was in fact pretty stable on the padle. Ok, enough complaining, just make sure you make sure that you guys know what you are talking about before you make a video like that next time...please😉
Deltas - I've used Deltas (still use, in fact) on a tandem with no issues! A lot of the commentary here is a recycling of some incorrect (or at best, mis-represented) memes. Whilst it was true to say that there was a recall on v1 Deltas (1986), it was a pad issue and it didn't leave you with "no brakes". It didn't "help" the braking, for sure - but pad heating is a not uncommon issue even today - hence the swap to discs with carbon rims. More on that further down. The issue with the QR on the top of the caliper mostly applied if users didn't adjust the brakes correctly to start with and / or used an inappropriate lever - this was not uncommon at the time as we were still in the days where components were mixed and matched with gay abandon (Sutherlands Handbook for Bicycle Mechanics in it's 7 editions over 1974 to 2004) contained pages and pages of compatibility notes) ... however, no maker has ever advised that, as a good idea ... On the cable binder, the siuation in the US was actually the reverse of what you describe - 3,5mm, within the tolerance that allen keys are made to, in interchangeable with 7/64", actually quite common in the US. 3.5mm, if anything, was more problematic in mainland Europe but imperial a/k sets were still pretty common in the UK in the late 80s (this is an old product now). I certainly never had a problem working as a shop and team mechanic back then. A few people whinged about it - but those who bought their tools from a proper tool supplier, never had an issue. All rim brakes actually give inconsistent braking as pads wear, regardless of whether you are looking at caliper brakes, para-pulls, cantis or parallel pull - and even discs will get to a point, if the user allows it, that you have "no braking". This is basic mechanics, nothing to do with bicycles - in the case of rim brakes, it's about cable recovery and mechanical advantage. If you understand how that works, you will also understand why Deltas needed to be used with the right lever & needed to be set up correctly to work well. At the time (in the absence of the Internet) many mechanics just "didn't know" and couldn't find out. I was amongst them. My solution was a little radical - I got on a plane, went to the factory and asked ... the start of my very long association with the brand. It's worth noting that some cases, if pad wear and rotor wear are taken to extremes in a hydro disc brake, they can even pop a piston out of a caliper ... On Ti BB axles, the significant failure you allude to was on a prototype that Fignon was testing. v1 was, as you correctly say withdrawn - but it was not widespread in the market. v2 which was the huge majority and was the official production version, not hollow, nut fixing, which addressed the problem that could be caused by material flaws in the taper. People tend to remember the Fignon crash but that's what happens when you test materials in a pro team - in fact (and up to a point), that's a part of the reason *why* pro teams are used as "real world" test beds ... and why our advice at Velotech is ... don't copy what you see the pros doing, because it may be that they're testing something quite specific and the kit they are using may not be *exactly* the same as what you buy as a final customer, or may have been set up in a very specific way.
Back in the late 80s I worked my a$$ off one summer to purchase an entire Campagnolo C Record set with the delta brakes. The only store that sold Campagnolo in my area talked me out of it even though they had the complete set in their front display case. They said my setup was just as good. BTW, I had the Biopace on my bike.
@@savagepro9060 What? Have you never seen the Guide Brakes that seize, the FD cages that break, batteries that fall off due to poor choice of plastic, etc? All these companies have fuck ups. It doesn’t make sense to ignore the second largest company by marketshare.
Early campagnola super record seat pins with alloy clamps and a single titanium bolt that stripped the thread out the top clamp and released the saddle. Very unpleasant while riding.
I have a set of SPD R pedals. They were ok for me, but eventually the sole of the shoe pulled away from the upper. No problem with square tape Campy either, just get Phil wood bb. Biopace, I laughed then and even more, now that they've reared their equivalent ugly heads again! M-540 is my favorite pedal. Road and mountain. Gravel doesn't exist.
2:21 nothing wrong with oval chainrings, but if you can't tell why they "failed" from this picture, then you don't understand gearing or the human powerstroke-cycle (hint its distance for force)
I loved SPD-R I still have a pair of them but can’t get good shoes and cleats for them anymore but I rode them daily for many years and over 70k km :) Had to SPD SL but already killed a pair of Ultrega R8000 pedals (bearings got crunchy) after 10.000 km :/
I have a few bikes, one with FSA carbon crank and Shimano octalink BB, two with FSA carbon cranks and ISIS BB, two with FSA 386 EVO carbon cranks and FSA 386 EVO BB and one with FSA MegaExo carbon crank and FSA MegaExo BB; (all treated BB, no press fit for me) no issues at all, I love Shimano, but will definitely skip Shimano hollowtech cranks.
Seen lots of these old tech on surplus bikes sold here in the Philippines, but only when watching your Vlog about these did I realized they were actually failed concepts and has serious issue with them. I only have an entry level Groupset on my bike and im thankful I did not went for a higher tier groupset because when the issues about the cranks breaking because of the corrosion on those higher tier sets, I was surprised because they were supposedly the most durable but theyre not.And also the oval crank, some unknown brands were marketing them but only here I realized they were actually obsolete....
Ha ha you silly newbies! It wasn't the Giro when Fignon's Ti axle snapped but the obscure French semi-classic Blois-Chaville in 1982. Your Shimano Biopace details are shaky too. And you haven't mentioned Campagnolo's biggest ever flop: the ill-fated Bullet MTB groupset at the end of the 80s. Maybe a bit more research and bit less bum fluff?
Not a flame or troll, just a question to get people thinking. If "all the experts" say something about a product, and thirty years and over 100,000 miles of personal experience say the exact opposite about that product, which are lying?
you forgot one BIG, I MEAN REALLY BIG shimano fail dura ace AX pitch 10 groupo.. the whole kit was metric.. chain the chain rings cassette and the pedals.. while looking great.. they were not.. para pull brakes..etc.. look that one up
OK, racing originally with Shimano's top derailleur systems, I found them too sloppy shifting and too prone to midrace breakdowns. I switched to & demand Campagnolo and never again accepted Shimano derailleurs. [they surely must have improved. my mtb is shimano, but i do not race it. have only about10 broken bones.] Shimano innovations on pedals had limitations appearing in traumatic use: One does not commonly extend pedaling through tight cornering except while racing at higher speed, either preparing to sprint or sprinting to the finish - or intermediate sprints. Their weakness was in the striking of pavement, which often lifts the rear wheel and entire body weight, so banked tracks did not expose the failure: As you know, physics of force transmission cause the weakest structural point to be where diameter changes exist. Their pedal snapped off after a few significant efforts and losing the steering occurring through weighting the pedal, sent me off in a straight line into boulders and road furniture after one sprint with a hard 90 degree turn. Many times that banked pedaling getting extra acceleration or speed maintenance caused my rear wheel to hop, causing riders behind to scream threats. I studiously avoid[ed] lapping others' wheels, but many less attentive riders DO self-immolate through doing so, unwarrantedly expecting all ahead of them to be smooth as a baby's bottom. Those personalities have a future in orthopedic and post-surgical wards, though. All sprinting has some degree of lateral movement, even WITHOUT purposeful Hooking. purposeful hooking, outside of match sprint = automatic DQ, and i've been a judge [i never use my real name online], DQing those who do that and other disqualifying moves. Anyway, I forget the name of the alternative Italian manufacturer of rim brakes we used that were both superior to, and lighter than, Campagnolo brakes. I am lucky to have missed some historical equipment fails. Campagnolo wheels were the first better than custom. Mavic and others ALL made tradeoffs in stiffness, aerodynamics, weight; custom was always best. THe past decade with its rejection of economic limits has changed racing. Though a couple-decade-old tech, Carbon fiber composite frames die quickly, fail completely under far less stress than metal materials, even as racing always includes crashing.
When Shimano came out with SIS (index shifting) in the 80s, it lead to the biggest failure Campagnolo ever encountered. Campy tried to index its shifting and it was a colossal failure. It took several tries on Campy’s part to get it to work. Each try was a mess.
In einem Punkt muß ich euch widersprechen: Den C Record Bremsen, allein eine Suche bei ebay wird euch da das Gegenteil zeigen, ich denke, es ist eine der spektakulärsten und interessantessten Bremsen, die je gebaut wurden. Die Nutzung des Kniehebelprinzips ist technisch anderen Lösungen überlegen, auch wenn ich zugeben muß: Da einen neuen Zug rein zu fummeln, ist - ein Drama ist noch vorsichtig ausgedrückt. Der Rest - sehe ich auch so. Ob Biopace, Titan Achsen und vieles mehr...wird nicht besser. Manchmal hätte man es auch so lassen können, wie es ist und gut ist. Eine Neuerung ist ja nicht deshalb gut, weil sie neu ist. Sie sollte auch besser sein.
@@roadccitˋs the wrong direction, would be okay if there are riders seen coming towards. Bit like this, it just looks wrong. Still, not beeing too serious about it ;)
I used Delta brakes 3rd gen back in the day when racing 0 issues i can tell you if anyone had issues with then i am sure they were less than the issues with the monstrosity disc BS of today so maybe in a few years aero and disc brakes will appear in a fail video 🤣😂🤣😂🤣
Doubt it. Disc brakes are for sure heavier but they helped with braking in less than ideal road conditions. Have you really tried aero bikes and compared it to your usual bikes, though? Complete with data (power, speed, times, etc)? Because unless you can backup your claims that it's a fail, then the only fail here is you.
@@VIEultimate i have a several bikes aero i have a giant propel non aero a giant tcr i have a f12 a f10 an some others a bianchi aria disc an awful mistake Wheels are more important for aero than frames i have tested it in real world conditions and weight matters also i never ride in wet conditions I'm not racing and not sponsored you like disc thats cool whatever makes you happy and keep you riding for me i don't need them never had a problem descending with my rim brakes on carbon wheels
@@ernestoechevers4741 Don't get me wrong, I'm also on rim brakes (some cheap Chinese road bike with 105 R7000 calipers). It does the job for me so I'm sticking with rim brakes on alloy rims unless I go for anything offroad-able (cross/gravel bike). But you just stated why someone would want disc brakes. lol As for aero, there's a reason why cyclists in TdF use aero bikes in flatter stages specifically. If you ride on hilly/mountainous terrains, then maybe that's why you think aero is useless. But don't say it is a fail for everyone, because international races say otherwise.
@@VIEultimate excellent i will stick with rim brakes as long as my budget allows i work on my bikes but the bianchi i have to go to the lbs to service the headset which is non acceptable for me who always work on my bikes and appreciate simplicity i had a difficult time building the f12 but pinarello has several videos in youtube i don't use integrated handlebars i use 38cm and integrated only has down to 40cm i use dura ace 9100 mechanical i had di2 twice first time a ulterga 6800 a charm then a DA 9100 a piece of crap so many problems i never bought di2 again those things are ok when you are sponsored and racing but for show at the coffee stop its nonsense its better to train and be fast on whatever bike we have
@@ernestoechevers4741 THAT I have to agree with. I also highly prefer simplicity and serviceability of more... traditional bikes. Maybe I could learn brake bleeding when I get a proper hydraulic disc brake bike (probably easy when one does it often), but I"m staying away from electronic and fully integrated cabling for the foreseeable future.
How many million of the modern shimano groupsets have been sold? You muppets are producing click bait The fail rate will be a micro percentage of the product produced
It's incompetent mechanics who make amateur comments like this... As the saying goes those that know... I have ridden Campagnolo for decades, like may of my friends it always works.... Just set up correctly and maintain correctly, faultless !
How should be the correct orientation? I also have an old bike with these chain rings, i got it for free (it is old) and I mounted them after restoring like they have been on the bike. They don't feel bad, but I don't recognize a big difference however to round ones
Hollowtech 2 cranksets fail because there is a chemical reaction between the alloy of the crank and the bb axle which is typically steel - put water on the joint and you effectively have a battery. Make it salt water (think UK salted roads) and it's even worse. The reaction degrades both the alloy and the adhesive. It's just simple science which, unfortunately, Shimano ignored...
Oh an self powered E-Bike
They don't fail at the spindle joint: they fail along the bond line between the outer shell and the spider. I suggest that talking off the top of your head about this makes you look a dill.
If your explanation was somehow true, ALL Hollowtech cranks will eventually fail, and also many others brands since the steel/aluminium composite is fairly common in cranks machining. This is not the case, the failure affects Dura ace and Ultegra only, and the failure in question is the two-piece design, with two separate clamshell sections that are bonded together to form a single hollow structure. When that bond joint failed, the whole arm basically just felt apart.
".... Making them the Hotel California of clipless pedals, you can clip in, but you can't never leave.." 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
You kids missed a few. Us older riders might remember Shimano airlines, Rapid rise and ,sadly, Suntour accushift....and there's nothing wrong with Biopace...
I’m see a lot of biopaces on my stand at the community lbs I wrench at because we get old bikes and fix ‘em up. It’s really common that the front mech is adjusted to the ring’s lowest, not highest point in the oval, so the mech rubs and grooves the big ring. Also, when I test-ride one I’ve refurbished, the oval is clearly not aligned with the crank for max power. Totally agree about Rapid Demise - I think the early mtb years threw a lot of spaghetti at the wall seeing what would stick. So many whack frames made it into production!
Sigh accushift. The last edition were really bad because you could not switch to Friction due to patent issues. I still want to try out some wing commanders on my Frankenstein bike.
I don’t understand what the complaints are about. My first road bike had Suntour Accushift. They worked great.
I REMEMBER AIRLINES. omg
I use to have a Biopace set on an old Peugeot bike. Was OK for me. Great set up.
I have a set of NOS Delta brakes (final edition) on my Tommasini Velocista with Potenza Ergopower levers. They are awesome! NOS sets are in the range of $1,000.
To be fair to Campagnolo, Shimano ax brakes were pretty ordinary too. Mine gave up on a long descent and put me in hospital. Likewise ax cranks with the matching pedals which used to crack and break at the bearing.
I still use my 80s delta brakes to this day, they were a pain to learn to adjust but now i can do it easily
The Delta brake bashing can stop. I can easily lock up my wheels with the 5-pivot delta design, and it seems most people bashing them have never ridden them, + it seems pros in the late 80s / early 90s didn't have too many problems racing on them. They were a pita to install (the cable), but once installed, they performed well with excellent modulation.
I think that should put them in their place. I agree with you totally
Yep, mine worked great 👍
Yes, they did not work that bad, even my simpler "croce d´aune" version with longer brake arms brought me to a stop. They were heavy, but looked cool.
Shimano 600 and Dura Ace AX brakes now they were bad, along with the Modolo Kronos brakes they were probably Campagnolo's inspiration for the Delta's, centre-pull aero. The AX brakes had blocks that you couldn't adjust, for 1982 both groupsets looked very futuristic.
Never had any issues with Delta brakes even on steep downhills. I never really heard any Pro Riders saying they had brake failure.
Yes there weight was more an issues.
Like many things the Delta issues have become much of an overblown myth over the passing decades.
Worst fail of all? Campagnolo pronunciation in this video
No argument on that for sure. 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
*sponsored by Sram* 😉
Sram over Shitmano any day. 😉
Shimano recalled the hollow tech 2 cranksets.
Biopace rings weren’t terrible,they didn’t lend themselves to spinning but for mashers they were just fine.
The larger the ring the less elliptical. The smallest was almost square. Was made for MTBers that go up steep hills.
I actually saw an spdr failure. Legend has it that dude is still clipped in today
😂
Ffs boys, repeat after me: “Cam” “pan” “yolo”
We'll make Jamie and Liam recite it 100 times before they're allowed to leave the office today
Man, the worst failures possible are always pedals, cranks, or anything that will leave hou with no support on your feet suddenly. Back in my walmart-ish bike time i used to bend cranks and pedals like crazy, i'm glad i have found DH and enduro eventually or i would still be replacing cranks every two years and pedals once a year.
Wow, that Hotel California line was unexpected and smooth.
When I was in Training in a big bike store we still had original Shimano SPD-R pedals in stock. - that was is 2017/2018. SPD-R got canceled in arround 2004. So yes it sold badly.
Years ago (mid 80s) I was in a bike shop in Phoenix or Mesa AZ that had a large collection of vintage bikes. There was a bike from around 1920 that had an oval chain ring.
8:45 sloppy research. It was only the Ultegra bonded cranksets that failed: the 11 speed 8000 series have 0 problems in this regard, as did Dura Ace Hollowtech of any vintage, as they were either welded together, or centrifugally cast, then forged.
I was out doing sprint training and snapped a non-drive side 7800 arm. It did not end well.
If the delta brakes were so bad how come they go for up to £1000 nowadays.
collector's item . . . THEY LOOK FKin GOOOOOD!
Dude, Campy groupies will sell one of their kidneys to install one on their bikes. 😂😂😂😂😂
I had biopace on my bike as a teenager, it wasn't a great bike but I had a lot of fun
I bought a 105 chainset to go on my ultegra bike as I didn't want my chainset falling apart.
When you add water(sweat) to a hollow tech plus sweat (salt); now you have corrosion. Do that all summer.
One not so brilliant Shimano product I have fond memories of is the Positron group set. The rear derailleur had no spring, and instead relied on a stiff shifter wire that could both pull and push. Five speed indexing was built in to the rear derailleur, fully exposed to road debris.
Yes, I worked on the Positron equipped bikes back in the early 1980s. It was found on department store bikes. Shimano did decide not to abandon index shifting though and instead of trying to make the tech “trickle up” from the cheap components, they started SIS on their top components and let it trickle down.
I know first hand why the Delta brakes had a braking issue. I wrote the internal report on the functional safety issue. It was originally intended to be just a time trail brake. I came up with a way around the 'failure' issue that prevents that brake failure. I know what happened to the engineer who oversaw and certified the masterful design. He experienced the Italian resignation. Those brakes are just a collector item these days. Look at the Shimano Dura Ace AX crank and pedals, interesting and innovative but not practical. Cinelli came out with the M-71 clipless pedals back in the 1970's. They had no toeclip or strap. They required reaching down and unlocking by hand to get out which cyclists thought was suicidal. But, those were intended for track racing only, where any release during the race means you loose.
I remember seeing pics of those Cinelli pedals way back when they were first released.
It seems they were designed and marketed towards track Match Sprinters mostly.
Then there was Aussie Pro Match Sprint World Champion John Nicholson who actually BOLTED his shoes onto the pedals, and had to tie his laces while on the start line, or right before then.
(Yes kiddies, there was actually a time when there were no BOA mechanisms to hunker down your shoes, and we used laces, as well as totally non-adjustable cleats, NAILED into the hard leather outer soles.) 😉
"I wrote the internal report on the functional safety issue"
PM me, pls? We must have met in Vicenza in 86. Antonio Romano and Marcel Angot were still there, then.
Delta´s a collectors item?? I use my pair... on my TT bike... Rgr
ALL those carbon frames with the built-in seat posts, that you can cut ONLY ONCE:
[1] well if you over-cut . . . use your imagination!
[2] might not fit a potential buyer
Nothing wrong with the oval chainrings: Froome and Wiggins were using and winning on O-symmetric ones (different angle than Biopace though). But they are just not for everyone. As for the Delta brakes, the issue is that they were getting stronger as the brake pads wears off due to the mechanism geometry which then offered a very high leverage. So they were engineeringly flawed, and needlessly engineered and heavy, but not weak. By the way Fignon won the tour de France on them, and lost to Lemon on them for 8sec.
I agree about the Biopace, terrible idea. Campy's bottom brackets that unscrewed while you rode. I had the miserable early Campy Athena group that was impossible to keep shifting correctly. And, even though this is only about Shimano and Campagnolo, the absolute worse bit of bike gear I had was the first issue of the Sampson clipless pedals that were nearly impossible to unclip without reaching down and grabbing your heel and jerking it to the side.
Biopace isn't bad at less than 50 rpm
@@raul0ca I had it when I was racing 35 years ago. So RPMs were around 100.
Campag BBs that unscrewed as you rode didn't, if they were properly installed - or, at least, no more so than any other Italian threaded bottom bracket.
Like all Italian BBs (right-hand thread both sides of the BB shell), they needed to be in threads that were clean and in good condition and the drive-side cup needed to be done up *tight*, or, in the case of the Campagnolo sealed bearing units, the cups needed to be properly torqued against each other.
It was by no means unique to Campagnolo, simply because it's a basic property of mounting a bearing inside a threaded component - it's been understood for at least a120 years. In the bicycle trade, the Wright brothers (who were bicycle mechanics and makers before they built the world's fist powered aircraft), pioneered the use of a LH threaded gearside bearing cup in the BB and LH pedal, because they were aware of the problem.
Shimano has never manned up to the horrible disasters caused by their hollow crank failures! It's documented. In fact there is actually a website for that!
Was there a specific model of crank that failed? Or was it just all Hollowtech being susceptible?
@@uptown710 Only Ultegra (6800 & R8000) and Dura-Ace (9000 & R9100).
@@uptown710 Ultegra 6800 and Dura Ace 9000 and up
@@Tullebukk75 thanks!
@@savagepro9060 thanks!
I'm still riding a Trek 520 with biopace. I like the bike, but may eventually upgrade the gears. I haven't had a problem with them.
I'm still riding 86 motioncraft with 105groupset and 52/40 biopace it's great.
How about Shimano's Flight Deck, the crappy computer that works for about 5 months, then dies?
19 years later mine is still working.still a pos tho!
Shimano Torney rear derailleur and the misterious b screw ...
Why hasn't there been a recall on the Hollowtech II cranks?
Shimano has been denying it for some time, if I'm not mistaken. They just decided to send out replacements but didn't make much change. They just decided to address it for the latest version of their groupsets.
Biopace on my '93 Klein Pinnacle. I love the quirkiness .
Spd-r pedals were brilliant, I never replaced a clear and they were super secure.
"Super secure" was the words... Rgr
TWO THINGS BIOPACE which l still have but but remounted one click clockwise with no issues other than chain drop from my 1x so l got a smaller 44t NW round chainring (still have the 28T inside to catch/bailout gear for any climbs) AND THE HOLLOWTECH which l m glad not have on my other bike which l have ye old ULTEGRA FORGED CRANKS 130 BCD 50/39 WITH OCTALINK :) NO WORRIES HERE !!
3.5mm hex key on the Campagnolo Delta is no problem at all: a Torx T20 fits perfectly into this bolt head.
When you find them, they´re cheap, as cheap as any other size. Buy three. Rgr
Is SRAM just not as big as i thought it was or are we just missing a company entirely?
Also best way to not fall off a bike at a stop: flat pedals. I can't tell you how many times I beat someone off the line from a stop because I can just stomp on the pedals with little care and then adjust on the 3rd or 4th stroke while they are futzing with the clips or getting their shoe to snap in.
Delta brakes with 5 pivots work perfectly and cable routing wasn't really a problem back then, whereas today it definately is. Biopace chainrings were the precursors of contemporary Rotor Q-Rings, both unnecessary but still. Yes, the first version of campagnolo's Titanium square taper bottom brackets were prone to fail, but the "development of splined hollow bottom brackets" had absolutely nothing to do with it. Square taper BB are working just fine. PD-7700 SPD-R pedals were a nightmare on the road, but track racers loved them for a reason so it is save to assume that your shoe was in fact pretty stable on the padle. Ok, enough complaining, just make sure you make sure that you guys know what you are talking about before you make a video like that next time...please😉
omg i just realized I rode the titanium axle and the biopace at the same time when I started cycling on my old bianchi. yikes!
Deltas - I've used Deltas (still use, in fact) on a tandem with no issues!
A lot of the commentary here is a recycling of some incorrect (or at best, mis-represented) memes.
Whilst it was true to say that there was a recall on v1 Deltas (1986), it was a pad issue and it didn't leave you with "no brakes". It didn't "help" the braking, for sure - but pad heating is a not uncommon issue even today - hence the swap to discs with carbon rims. More on that further down.
The issue with the QR on the top of the caliper mostly applied if users didn't adjust the brakes correctly to start with and / or used an inappropriate lever - this was not uncommon at the time as we were still in the days where components were mixed and matched with gay abandon (Sutherlands Handbook for Bicycle Mechanics in it's 7 editions over 1974 to 2004) contained pages and pages of compatibility notes) ... however, no maker has ever advised that, as a good idea ...
On the cable binder, the siuation in the US was actually the reverse of what you describe - 3,5mm, within the tolerance that allen keys are made to, in interchangeable with 7/64", actually quite common in the US.
3.5mm, if anything, was more problematic in mainland Europe but imperial a/k sets were still pretty common in the UK in the late 80s (this is an old product now). I certainly never had a problem working as a shop and team mechanic back then. A few people whinged about it - but those who bought their tools from a proper tool supplier, never had an issue.
All rim brakes actually give inconsistent braking as pads wear, regardless of whether you are looking at caliper brakes, para-pulls, cantis or parallel pull - and even discs will get to a point, if the user allows it, that you have "no braking". This is basic mechanics, nothing to do with bicycles - in the case of rim brakes, it's about cable recovery and mechanical advantage. If you understand how that works, you will also understand why Deltas needed to be used with the right lever & needed to be set up correctly to work well. At the time (in the absence of the Internet) many mechanics just "didn't know" and couldn't find out. I was amongst them. My solution was a little radical - I got on a plane, went to the factory and asked ... the start of my very long association with the brand.
It's worth noting that some cases, if pad wear and rotor wear are taken to extremes in a hydro disc brake, they can even pop a piston out of a caliper ...
On Ti BB axles, the significant failure you allude to was on a prototype that Fignon was testing. v1 was, as you correctly say withdrawn - but it was not widespread in the market.
v2 which was the huge majority and was the official production version, not hollow, nut fixing, which addressed the problem that could be caused by material flaws in the taper.
People tend to remember the Fignon crash but that's what happens when you test materials in a pro team - in fact (and up to a point), that's a part of the reason *why* pro teams are used as "real world" test beds ... and why our advice at Velotech is ... don't copy what you see the pros doing, because it may be that they're testing something quite specific and the kit they are using may not be *exactly* the same as what you buy as a final customer, or may have been set up in a very specific way.
Back in the late 80s I worked my a$$ off one summer to purchase an entire Campagnolo C Record set with the delta brakes. The only store that sold Campagnolo in my area talked me out of it even though they had the complete set in their front display case. They said my setup was just as good. BTW, I had the Biopace on my bike.
Still regret not buying, eh?? Rgr
@@borano2031 Sadly, Yes.
Why not include SRAM? Lord knows they’ve produced lots of garbage.
@@savagepro9060 What? Have you never seen the Guide Brakes that seize, the FD cages that break, batteries that fall off due to poor choice of plastic, etc?
All these companies have fuck ups. It doesn’t make sense to ignore the second largest company by marketshare.
oh and the carbon cranksets that disbond at the pedal axle threads.
SPD-R was fine. No issues at all.
Early campagnola super record seat pins with alloy clamps and a single titanium bolt that stripped the thread out the top clamp and released the saddle. Very unpleasant while riding.
I had Bio Pace chainrings for about 2 week back in the late 80s.
I have a set of SPD R pedals. They were ok for me, but eventually the sole of the shoe pulled away from the upper. No problem with square tape Campy either, just get Phil wood bb. Biopace, I laughed then and even more, now that they've reared their equivalent ugly heads again! M-540 is my favorite pedal. Road and mountain. Gravel doesn't exist.
2:21 nothing wrong with oval chainrings, but if you can't tell why they "failed" from this picture, then you don't understand gearing or the human powerstroke-cycle (hint its distance for force)
Bingo.
I loved SPD-R I still have a pair of them but can’t get good shoes and cleats for them anymore but I rode them daily for many years and over 70k km :)
Had to SPD SL but already killed a pair of Ultrega R8000 pedals (bearings got crunchy) after 10.000 km :/
I have a few bikes, one with FSA carbon crank and Shimano octalink BB, two with FSA carbon cranks and ISIS BB, two with FSA 386 EVO carbon cranks and FSA 386 EVO BB and one with FSA MegaExo carbon crank and FSA MegaExo BB; (all treated BB, no press fit for me) no issues at all, I love Shimano, but will definitely skip Shimano hollowtech cranks.
Why is there no recall for those crankarms???
Biopace worked but the marketing did not really fly. That was the only failure. The idea though is good.
Seen lots of these old tech on surplus bikes sold here in the Philippines, but only when watching your Vlog about these did I realized they were actually failed concepts and has serious issue with them. I only have an entry level Groupset on my bike and im thankful I did not went for a higher tier groupset because when the issues about the cranks breaking because of the corrosion on those higher tier sets, I was surprised because they were supposedly the most durable but theyre not.And also the oval crank, some unknown brands were marketing them but only here I realized they were actually obsolete....
Same about the oval chainring. A friend of mine was crazy excited for them and it's been a while since i have seen him use it.
Ha ha you silly newbies! It wasn't the Giro when Fignon's Ti axle snapped but the obscure French semi-classic Blois-Chaville in 1982. Your Shimano Biopace details are shaky too. And you haven't mentioned Campagnolo's biggest ever flop: the ill-fated Bullet MTB groupset at the end of the 80s. Maybe a bit more research and bit less bum fluff?
Campagnolo . . . pronounce the 'gn' like 'i'
Non cold forged Quill Bike Stems cracking and separating
Guess ill be the first to test hollow crank for a winter, update next spring :) kona cindercone
Not a flame or troll, just a question to get people thinking. If "all the experts" say something about a product, and thirty years and over 100,000 miles of personal experience say the exact opposite about that product, which are lying?
Biopace is great, still riding mine?
you forgot one BIG, I MEAN REALLY BIG shimano fail dura ace AX pitch 10 groupo.. the whole kit was metric.. chain the chain rings cassette and the pedals.. while looking great.. they were not.. para pull brakes..etc.. look that one up
Delta brakes look absolutely horrendous. Campy ultra torque cranks are equally terrible.
OK, racing originally with Shimano's top derailleur systems, I found them too sloppy shifting and too prone to midrace breakdowns. I switched to & demand Campagnolo and never again accepted Shimano derailleurs. [they surely must have improved. my mtb is shimano, but i do not race it. have only about10 broken bones.]
Shimano innovations on pedals had limitations appearing in traumatic use: One does not commonly extend pedaling through tight cornering except while racing at higher speed, either preparing to sprint or sprinting to the finish - or intermediate sprints.
Their weakness was in the striking of pavement, which often lifts the rear wheel and entire body weight, so banked tracks did not expose the failure:
As you know, physics of force transmission cause the weakest structural point to be where diameter changes exist. Their pedal snapped off after a few significant efforts and losing the steering occurring through weighting the pedal, sent me off in a straight line into boulders and road furniture after one sprint with a hard 90 degree turn.
Many times that banked pedaling getting extra acceleration or speed maintenance caused my rear wheel to hop, causing riders behind to scream threats.
I studiously avoid[ed] lapping others' wheels, but many less attentive riders DO self-immolate through doing so, unwarrantedly expecting all ahead of them to be smooth as a baby's bottom.
Those personalities have a future in orthopedic and post-surgical wards, though. All sprinting has some degree of lateral movement, even WITHOUT purposeful Hooking. purposeful hooking, outside of match sprint = automatic DQ, and i've been a judge [i never use my real name online], DQing those who do that and other disqualifying moves.
Anyway, I forget the name of the alternative Italian manufacturer of rim brakes we used that were both superior to, and lighter than, Campagnolo brakes. I am lucky to have missed some historical equipment fails.
Campagnolo wheels were the first better than custom. Mavic and others ALL made tradeoffs in stiffness, aerodynamics, weight; custom was always best. THe past decade with its rejection of economic limits has changed racing.
Though a couple-decade-old tech, Carbon fiber composite frames die quickly, fail completely under far less stress than metal materials, even as racing always includes crashing.
Nice job 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼
I had bio pace thought it was great!!
Biopace were fine. Most people would never even notice the difference if they were riding blind.
Either of these jokers even old enough to remember half this tech 😬😎
Not even with their combined age
Campag? Is that still a thing.
When Shimano came out with SIS (index shifting) in the 80s, it lead to the biggest failure Campagnolo ever encountered. Campy tried to index its shifting and it was a colossal failure. It took several tries on Campy’s part to get it to work. Each try was a mess.
What about SRAM?
I would like to try the dura ace spd pedals 😬
And yeah just for the track
Good luck finding 👟 and cleats for that. There wasnt even many Infos about SPD-R that I could found last time I checked on the web.
In einem Punkt muß ich euch widersprechen: Den C Record Bremsen, allein eine Suche bei ebay wird euch da das Gegenteil zeigen, ich denke, es ist eine der spektakulärsten und interessantessten Bremsen, die je gebaut wurden. Die Nutzung des Kniehebelprinzips ist technisch anderen Lösungen überlegen, auch wenn ich zugeben muß: Da einen neuen Zug rein zu fummeln, ist - ein Drama ist noch vorsichtig ausgedrückt.
Der Rest - sehe ich auch so. Ob Biopace, Titan Achsen und vieles mehr...wird nicht besser. Manchmal hätte man es auch so lassen können, wie es ist und gut ist. Eine Neuerung ist ja nicht deshalb gut, weil sie neu ist. Sie sollte auch besser sein.
Something tells me the artist of the print in the back never even looked at a track race once…
why's that then?
@@roadccitˋs the wrong direction, would be okay if there are riders seen coming towards. Bit like this, it just looks wrong. Still, not beeing too serious about it ;)
This is your job, is it that hard to say Campagnolo correctly?
Disgusting self proclaimed experts. 😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭
Oh, and you forgot to mention Sh. "Positron" shifters.🤣
The price of ultegra must be below average of 105 ….
Giro? It was Blois Chaville.
Campagnolo SGR clipless pedals were significantly their worst product in the last 40 years.
my italian freinds wife just bought him a set 2 years ago.. he rides on them to this day
Elon Musk: Someone said BioSpace?
No! We said Biopace!
Lets hope wireless shifting one day gets relegated to the trash bin of failed experiments!
I see two failures ...
How about road bike shifters that you can only shift one way when on the drops.? Who invented those?
BOTH YOUNG AND LIMITED...
Shimano Metrea, Shimano Sante... Nice groupsets that sold poorly.
sante. were designed for the bmw drivers
I've had many biopace rings, awful
"(First part of description. Should include keywords in this section. Try to write in semantic language)"
Thank should be fixed now 😬
@@roadcc 😂 The video is literally about the fails!
Nice pronunciation of Campagnolo, facepalm
Love that description
We love an informative description
I used Delta brakes 3rd gen back in the day when racing 0 issues i can tell you if anyone had issues with then i am sure they were less than the issues with the monstrosity disc BS of today so maybe in a few years aero and disc brakes will appear in a fail video 🤣😂🤣😂🤣
Doubt it. Disc brakes are for sure heavier but they helped with braking in less than ideal road conditions. Have you really tried aero bikes and compared it to your usual bikes, though? Complete with data (power, speed, times, etc)? Because unless you can backup your claims that it's a fail, then the only fail here is you.
@@VIEultimate i have a several bikes aero i have a giant propel non aero a giant tcr i have a f12 a f10 an some others a bianchi aria disc an awful mistake
Wheels are more important for aero than frames i have tested it in real world conditions and weight matters also i never ride in wet conditions I'm not racing and not sponsored you like disc thats cool whatever makes you happy and keep you riding for me i don't need them never had a problem descending with my rim brakes on carbon wheels
@@ernestoechevers4741 Don't get me wrong, I'm also on rim brakes (some cheap Chinese road bike with 105 R7000 calipers). It does the job for me so I'm sticking with rim brakes on alloy rims unless I go for anything offroad-able (cross/gravel bike). But you just stated why someone would want disc brakes. lol
As for aero, there's a reason why cyclists in TdF use aero bikes in flatter stages specifically. If you ride on hilly/mountainous terrains, then maybe that's why you think aero is useless. But don't say it is a fail for everyone, because international races say otherwise.
@@VIEultimate excellent i will stick with rim brakes as long as my budget allows i work on my bikes but the bianchi i have to go to the lbs to service the headset which is non acceptable for me who always work on my bikes and appreciate simplicity i had a difficult time building the f12 but pinarello has several videos in youtube i don't use integrated handlebars i use 38cm and integrated only has down to 40cm i use dura ace 9100 mechanical i had di2 twice first time a ulterga 6800 a charm then a DA 9100 a piece of crap so many problems i never bought di2 again those things are ok when you are sponsored and racing but for show at the coffee stop its nonsense its better to train and be fast on whatever bike we have
@@ernestoechevers4741 THAT I have to agree with. I also highly prefer simplicity and serviceability of more... traditional bikes. Maybe I could learn brake bleeding when I get a proper hydraulic disc brake bike (probably easy when one does it often), but I"m staying away from electronic and fully integrated cabling for the foreseeable future.
and how about sram fails?
and what You guys create
thankshimano
It is not so difficult to pronounce Campagnolo correctly - or at least much more correctly than you do. Why don't you do it?
Noobs for sure. 😂😂😂😂😂
How many million of the modern shimano groupsets have been sold?
You muppets are producing click bait
The fail rate will be a micro percentage of the product produced
Campagnolo.. typically Italian, nice to look at but shlt to live with.
It's incompetent mechanics who make amateur comments like this... As the saying goes those that know... I have ridden Campagnolo for decades, like may of my friends it always works.... Just set up correctly and maintain correctly, faultless !
Shimano rapid rise.
Campag-nolo 🙈
Please stop mispronouncing Campagnolo. It’s not an “alternate” pronunciation. It’s just wrong. It’s a person’s name.
Clueless cycling experts. 😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭
Why let children make a video about a subject they know nothing about. Biopace did work I did thousands of ok with them on my bike.
If Biopace is installed correctly, not as spec, it feels good.
How should be the correct orientation? I also have an old bike with these chain rings, i got it for free (it is old) and I mounted them after restoring like they have been on the bike. They don't feel bad, but I don't recognize a big difference however to round ones
@@simonm1447 Fastfitnesstips, a youtuber, has a series on installing Biopace correctly
@@charlesblithfield6182 thanks for the tip