This is probably the most coherent critique of the Thor movies as a whole I’ve seen yet. It doesn’t JUST dog on L&T, instead it shows the strengths and weaknesses of the other films and why Thor 4 More Thors doesn’t work on a base level. At least I think that’s what I took away from this vid? Great work either way!
I took away the opposite on L&T, that the base idea works, but the comedy/improv takes away from the narrative instead of adding to it as it did in Ragnarok.
@@UltraLuigi2401 I completely agree with you & this video that the comedy/improv takes away from the movie. I feel like maybe not enough was said about the new Thor movie, and the vid was a bit like a retrospective of all of them? That’s why we have different opinions? But honestly you’re probably right lol. I was a bit busy eating lunch tbh.
@@dyll_pyckle well look at how the subsections are titled, a rise and fall would imply they believe L&T was the worst, which would sadly forget Dark World exists. Here's my issue though, I just cant watch anything that Natalie Portman is in because she will always be Padme to me (to add i hated her performance in these and star wars movies)
The 4 Thor movies remind me of the 4 Batmans. The first 2 take themselves seriously (with some jokes of course). Then for the third they brought in a comedy director (Schumacher/Waititi)to lighten it up and make it more marketable to the children. And because that works well the 4th is nothing but jokes or ice puns.
I can't stand Thor Ragnarok for the same reason I can't stand batman forever, because they took a beforehand serious toned character and made him into a comedic idiot, marketed to undeveloped minds
Well said. From a purely fan perspective, I didn't think Love and Thunder was TERRIBLE, but it definitely let me down. It's not Morbius level bad, but could have been so much better if they'd just slowed down and thought about what they were writing a little more.
Thor is a lesson in how, when you have a setting as vast and unbounded as a comics universe (itself being rooted in a pastiche of different genres), the character arc should drive the genre, NOT the other way around. Genre is largely about the role that setting and tone play in meta-commentary about character behavior. Thor 1 was partially about the bickering of a larger-than-life royal family, which is why operatic, Shakespearean stage play made perfect sense for Asgard, and partly a classic lesson in humility for a pompous prince, which is why a lighthearted small town rom-com feeling worked perfectly for Earth. These genre choices reinforced the message that Thor was spoiled and took his minor problems way too seriously. Part of why Thor TDW stumbled is because I don't think the film had a clear vision for its characters' arcs, and although a lot of PLOT happened, there wasn't much of any character growth nor any consistent message about it. Who was at fault for what happened with Jane, and did anyone learn anything after all this? Is curiosity bad actually? Was Thor absentee? Also, what does Thor think about the mixed message about his lesson in humility last movie and the constant need for vigilance in a dangerous universe implied in this movie? And what about Loki's false redemption arc? Is the message that we're all doomed to play our parts and nothing ever changes? If so, maybe spending more time in the distant past would have helped. Look to historical war dramas for inspiration. Ragnarok worked better because its arc was about reconciliation, hope, and heroism. If you want your audience to believe it's possible to save Loki from villainy, and that he's really just a misunderstood scamp, go with the family comedy. Love and humor in light of your struggles is exactly what family-oriented comedy is all about. Ragnarok, I think, was about how Thor sees his journey up to this point and for that reason, it's fittingly celebratory. But it was also, perhaps unintentionally, about the fact that Thor has actually had it really easy. That's why lastly, Thor was absolutely magnificent in Infinity War because it was an immediate tonal shift, a punishing repudiation of hope, turning Thor's positivity against him. His attempt at facing bleakness with humor and hope and heroism is still there, but it's dark and comes off bitter, angry, and vengeful.
As someone who really did like L&T, but acknowledged it has several flaws, it was nice to see a thoughtful review like this that didn't just devolve into "JOKES BAD, WHY THOR LADY NOW". Your channel is quickly becoming a favorite of mine and I really appreciate the thoughtful, scholarly insight into different forms and types of media.
This was a good THOUGHTFUL critique of 4, unlike so many other fanboys who are just like It sucks! I loved four mainly because of the love and romance AND the full circle lessons of overcoming trauma (the thing was he was still trying to avoid the feelings with disassociated humor, which was painful to watch but accurate!), forgiving, and persevering in love. The adopted daughter even if clumsily set up was still beautiful! But yes there was still an overuse of jokes that DIDNT contribute to the characters arcs and relationships.
agreed. I didnt mind the jokes, but agreed. I think the arcs needed more room to develop in their place. But I think thats because of rushed production and less because Taika didnt want to explore Gorr and Jane more.
@@casteanpreswyn7528 people missed the point with L&T ? Tell me, what was the point of that movie ? NONE, it shouldn’t even be displayed at cinema because the movie doesn’t even bother to try and make us interested, it’s like it was purposely done for you to just watch and laugh and move on. The movie only had point in MCU fanatics head canon, explaining everything as deep coping or whatever they mistake themselves into continuing to support bland content passed as anything of artistic value, when it’s much worse, they simply don’t care about FILM, it’s just a way to keep shills watching big ash trailers and the fanboys will defend blandness as the highest form of art Just the fact people think the MCU is a FILM success proves my point, it destroys cinema in so many aspects and worse, it paints super hero genre as bland and pointless but due to fanboys it will stick, and so now generic interpretations of characters without caring for cinematography, storytelling, CONSEQUENCE, score, tone, the lack of these film aspects is revered by critics and not even discussed anymore for these films. All that Marvel and Disney had to do was care, nothing less nothing more
Probably my favourite channel. I can’t fathom how well you articulate story structures and themes and the links you make to sociology and psychology. It’s so insightful. It’s completely changed the way I view films and write my own stuff for film. I’m currently studying film at uni and I may as well put you as part of my citation at the end of my essays lol. I’m pretty sure the perspectives you offer in films has changed the way I’ve looked at the world. Thanks Leo 🙏🏾
I've never had someone explain to me so clearly why I didn't like Ragnarok, even though I recognize it as a good film, because, even though I recognize it as a bad film, I did really like the characterizations done in The Dark World. Also, I still think The Dark World is the best Loki movie we've gotten so far. The Loki series is really good, don't get me wrong, I love the TVA, but it misses so hard on making an interesting LOKI story.
Right there with ya on the Loki show. The series around him is great, but they cut so many corners on his character. That moment where he expresses concern for the people on Lamentis after trying to enslave a planet, like, a few days ago is baffling. Tom Hiddleston is owed all the praise for keeping what character consistency there is.
Honestly Loki’s show doesn’t really feel like it’s his show but it’s Sylvie’s show.He gets beat up and outsmarted by every other characters in the show whearas Sylvie constantly beats up anyone she fights.I would have much rather seen the show focus on how evil and mischievous Loki’s characters is/was since they pulled him from the time period of the Phase 1-2 movies rather than introducing more multiversal nonsensical storylines that Marvel can’t seem to tell properly The TVA never got me interested to see more of them,their just variations of regular human beings using god like items to protect the timeline who are jobbers and uninteresting characters. Marvel really rushed Loki’s character development from the previous movies he was in just so that they have him be the good version of Loki we all grew to care about until Thanos killed him off at the end Take out Sylvie who is just an uninteresting version of Loki and Kang/the multiverse nonsense and we could have gotten an introspective/retrospective look on Loki’s character.He could have been the main protagonist/antagonist of the show whose playing the TVA for fools and could tricked them in the end by making them think they had him under control when it was the other way around but nah we got to have Sylvie make the big sacrifice and watch Loki simp for her
Just wanted to say... Not often you find someone who actually understands the difference between liking/disliking something VS knowing whether it is actually good or bad. It's insane the amount of people who mistake those things... thinking that if they like something(or if something is popular/successful) it's because it must good(as if there was no way they could ever enjoy something of bad quality). Yet when you criticize with valid points and explain why something is not as good(or bad) as they think it is, they come with the classic "Well, taste is subjective... everyone is entitlted to their own opinon". That's what "TASTE IS SUBJECTIVE" truly means after all. That we get to like or dislike things IN SPITE of the intrinsic elements of the content and it's undeniable value... Not that the value of said elements of said content are subject to each person's criteria(at least not all the elements... I mean, somethings ARE subjective after all, but not all of them). That's like saying reality is shaped according to each one's perception. Just nonsense. Most people don't care about objectivity(as in, putting the bias aside and judging things for what they truly are on their own, and not how one feels about it), they just want to validate themselves or protect their ego from getting hurt cause they cannot accept the idea that their "criteria" could possibly fail them, not even once. PS: Or maybe I'm the biased mofo who cannot see past his own nose. Who can truly know it with certainity.
I miss when Thor Odinson was a more serious character I never found him boring to me that made him so unique and different from Iron Man and the other avengers
love and thunder was a middle of the road film for me, because some jokes fell flat but other scenes were absolutely gorgeous. i really don't get how people have such hatred for the damn thing. like i can get not enjoying it but there are people who are foaming at the mouth over this.
The tonal shifts are too much for some people. I cold have used more Gore and Jane as Mighty Thor,..both seem a bit underserved. But I enjoyed the movie a lot. However I hope they make a course correction for Thor
@@terryshrk i think they will. the funniest thing about this for me is hwo so many people were crying about how the MCU was static, it all looked the same, no movie had its own flavor. to let creatives have more freedom to do what they want... and now they got it. love and thunder and multiverse of madness is what you get when you have two directors with VERY specific film styles do what they want. like what did you expect from sam raimi if you took off the reins? now everyone is bitching about it, and don't get that they used the monkeys paw.
@@Morlock19 well I mean one thing to consider is Raimi exactly have all the reins let loose, there were still a lot of studio mandates that clearly bled into the film as visibly as Raimi's touch. As for L&T, I think a lot of it has more to do with Thor's characterization and An underutilization of Gorr as a villain, both of which are more likely than not the effect of Taika Watiti claiming he can do the comic story better than the comic and outrightly refusing to go into the source material. Maybe there have been some rather extreme opinions you've come across, I personally haven't, most of the reviews I watch essentially share and focus on these particular sentiments but from what I believe is the majority of movie watchers, these are the clearest defined complaints
@@dedrik1461 most of the comments i've come across are talking shit about the comedy aspect specifically... that the jokes didn't land for them or how he made thor too jokey. and i'm not saying its a perfect movie at all, like i said it was middle of the road for me. not as bad as dark world, not as good as first thor. but the humor is what i expected from taika watiti, and it really seemed like everyone else was taken by surprise. it was an odd discourse to watch. your comments here? totally valid. the gor stuff seemed divorced from the rest of the movie. as for the comic story... i honestly wish that they actually took jane and made her into another ongoing asguardian hero, and then they could go ahead and do the full mighty thor run. also... someone else for A-Force... anyways people are weird, a ton of very loud people are complaining about everything marvel is putting out, and its annoying.
@@Morlock19 that's really unfortunate, it's sad to see people mindlessly attack something you love. I feel that you at least share some common sentiments with those people, like the sentiment of wasted opportunity, speaking as someone who isn't particularly pleased with Marvel's current content I can honestly say I'm not even sure what I was expecting from phase 4 Looking back, it's not like every film could possibly change my life and I rather enjoyed moon knight and loki by myself so I doubt it's simply Superhero fatigue. Perhaps at it's base form, stripping away the lack of a focal point like Tony Stark or newer heroes that seemingly don't carry the weight of the originals. I'd say many fans are just reacting out of fear really. If it was one or two problems perhaps we'd be quite content to let these things slide but the creeping barrage of problems that only seems to compound with time sets off the warning bells that lead to this diversive sea of tension we face now. If there were a few projects slated with mediocre stories but amazing visual fx or vice versa, if there were tons of projects with heartfelt stories and limited vfx, perhaps we wouldn't be in this state. But an overworked visual fx crew, a packed slate with sometimes outright questionable launches and average stories, an over-commercialisation of the content and no news of a defined plan, something we as MCU fans are practically unaccustomed to (this isn't DC after all), leaves us- well, with our dicks in hands. And those who lack either the patience or willingness to seek the roots of this frustration, do what they can - hate and rage. A collective consciousness feeding off it's hate, frankly ruining a once proud fandom
To be fair, that's not an excuse, because otherwise that A LOT should happen on screen, or otherwise it doesn't exist. It's bad filmmaking. His change of personality makes zero sense. He went from "You think this is funny, Stark?" to "I don't even like Banner; he's all numbers and stuff" in just one movie.
Yeah some of the choices for this film really made no sense, alot of the humour seemed really ill fitting once the story got going. I'm kinda amazed they replaced unworthy Thor with a series of jokes about Stormbringer getting jealous and just let New Asgard exist as a joke, without questioning if Valkyrie really was the best choice as King (not that she isn't, she's totally competent but she's also let their culture be turned into a tourist trap?), It's a very funny film but it feels like Marvel told Waititi to do another Ragnarok rather then let him get Thor's story Arc back on track.
On multiple watches I honestly feel like Love & Thunder feels *less* like a series of skits than Ragnarok does. I personally feel way more of an emotional thematic thrust to the former than I do the latter, even if the comedy is more intrusive.
This, exactly this. The final scene between Jane and Thor is one of _maybe_ three in the entire MCU to bring tears to my eyes. It's still a beautiful story of rediscovering relationships thought long gone.
@@pance_9912 I couldn't take Jane's death for what is was supposed to be. To me she was being wasted in a movie that barely gave her enough room to breath, and this after that amazing moment when she received the hammer from Taika on stage that promised so much more.
@@2nd3rd1st I think they did pretty good by her! But yes again focused on jokes tad too much rather than dev characters. So lost some Jane time. And lost Jane Valkyrie time. But they had to include ALOT Gorr gayardians, romance, thor arc, action etc
I didn't know why ppl hate on L&T before until you mention of core themes getting "diluted". Now I still like it, but I also see the wasted opportunity there.
9:09 yeah I was expecting something nefarious or maybe mischievous from King Loki and instead he built statues of himself and opened a drama program. Wait, Thor adopts a kid? He's a dad now?
A good critique. Too many people are saying Love & Thunder sucks or ruined Thor, when it's an okay movie that didn't have enough focus on the story, and in the end served to undo the damage to Thor's character from Endgame and give Jane a proper continuation after she was written off after Thor 1.
i fully get critiques and not liking L&T but i’m sorry dude i just loved it haha. i had a fucking blast watch it! just had to show my love dude. FUking loved it!
Love and Thunder makes me worry that maybe Waititi got lucky with the themes of Ragnorok and was just trying to make a goofy fun superhero movie the first time... almost makes me want to roll the dice on number 5 lol
Waititi wasted the momentum he had with Ragnarok and that's why Love and Thunder feels so rushed, so SNL. Heck! at some points, it was like watching an oversized TikTok clip. The love story between Thor and Jane withered already years ago. Seeing them together again felt like watching two former Highschool sweethearts at their 10 years reunion. Pretty awkward and no chemistry. But, hey! we had screaming goats, Thor's butt, King Valkyrie (lol) and Korg having more lines than Thor. That should count for something, right?
I liked going back to Jane!!! They just totally dropped that story char and romance without ANY reason or closure. He was totally in love then just nothing??? It was only right to bring hernnack
Funny you should mention retconning with Thor Ragnarök. Taika Waititi, Mark Ruffalo, and Chris Hemsworth all agreed to a retconning approach to the films narrative and breaking the established continuity. Which I'm pretty sure is a bit of a bad idea since it resets the characters and has the audience readjust their understandings partway through the series.
Dark World is still my favourite Thor movie. The characterization of Thor and Loki (who felt like a secondary protagonist) was the best we've gotten from them by far. Watch their scenes together and try to tell me they were not fun, dramatic and did their characters justice.
I don't know if you've ever blatantly said in your videos before that you didn't like a marvel movie. Even movies that weren't that good, you always somehow put a positive spin on them and redeemed them for me as a viewer. The fact that you couldn't or didn't do it for this one goes to show just how much the movie didn't work for the larger audience. Also I think the Thor in this movie was more like the Party Thor from what if in terms of his sense of responsibility for simply heroism rather than personal growth. What do you think?
@@foreverfirebird5712 yes he did provide context to the movie as he always does, but he did not hide the fact that he didn't like it, is what I meant to say. Sorry if that wasn't clear in my comment
Maybe it's the single dad in me, but even with the offbeat improv I felt impacted by L&T. It told a story of chasing lost love, rekindling it through honesty, then losing it almost immediately bc thats how cruel life can be. And then finding new, nurturing love in unexpected places. And it also tells the story of how the villain won. He truly bested the heroes. But he gave faith and hope one last chance bc of his own love for his daughter. Her being the one thing that he could not give up on. Despite thinking he knew better and having the ability to give in to hate, he chose what any dedicated parent would do.
Between Thor L&T and Shang Chi, and to a degree Dr Strange MoM, I'm imagining a through line about family and succession. I suppose that all started with Spiderman NWH. Or Black Widow. Actually, Hawkeye and Ms Marvel also share those themes.
This was super good! I found mysef disagreeing a little bit with love and thunder. How I viewed the jokes were a bit different. On surface level they completely are non essential random skits but when I look back on the movie I feel like they reflect the message of living in the moment. They’re ridiculous but they’re a reminder to the audience to not take everything so seriously and it all kinda culminates in the last scene.
The ONLY Movie Commentry channel that doesn't just CASH IN on stupid titles like "Why this is TRASH" and give nothing more than their mainstream accepatable opinion where SHEEP puppet all the talking points everyone ALREADY knows in the comments😭🤦♂️ I LOVE this channel. May 1 Mill subs be on your future😂🙏💯
My biggest problem was the fact that they ironically butchered gor's character, and the conflict both morally and physically that he presents. He challenges theology and what it should be and even made Thor question how worthy he actually was, and he became so powerful he kicked three different Thor's asses at once.
Finally, a video about love and thunder that isn't reduced to "tHiS mOviE sUckS". Even though I enjoyed the movie in general, the comedy and improv it's not as good as in ragnarok and the main plot could have been more impactful, but it just felt like something was missing. And one thing that really bothered me about the film is that, in the beginning, Thor is kind of set up as an uncaring and arrogant god (like when he only joined the battle when someone asked him and he destroyed that sacred temple despite being told not to), but the movie never addresses that issue again. With that scene, I thought the story was going to be about how Thor is not like other gods who don't care and he really tries to do better. And he's better than most, of course, but it never comes across like that. It's an aspect I wish they had explored because it has so much potential, but whatever, I guess.
I love that you identified the core themes Love and Thunder is going for and how they could have created a pretty compelling film if they had actually been pulled off properly
Love and Thunder proves Thor needs Loki more than Loki needs Thor. i love the first Thor, it's my favorite MCU film. i like The Dark World, it's more important than i think people realize, without it a lot of things don't work
I'm so glad you were able to articulate the reason why I didn't like Love and Thunder: Taika got in his own way with the improv rather than focusing on the true heart of the story. Which ulitmately makes the entire film a frustrating mess.
Just want to leave this here, knowing that there's even a slight chance of you seeing this comment. I absolutely fuckin love your videos. Your essays never fails to entertain and resonate with me, from the editing, voice over, transition, and especially, es-fucking-pecially your music choices. Thank you for being here???... I don't know where I wanted to go with this comment I'm on my meds and I'm numb. THANK YOUUU
THIS is literally the only L&T review i've watched past the first minute, because as much as i enjoyed this movie, i understand its flaws, and can accept them without letting them ruin the movie as a whole. That being said, i still think L&T is a very fun movie, and follows the vibes and themes of Ragnorok, by continuing and maintaining the new tone of Thor solo movies. *Thank You* for not following the trend of knit-picking small problems, and making a mountain out a molehill. Ragnorok was so good, that surpassing it would be extremely difficult, and in my opinion, if it did, it would still garner the same vitriol that comes with all the new Phase 4 Marvel content. Love the channel, Love the videos, Love the introspection.
Interesting take. I went to see L&T alone and the theater was almost empty. No one laughed during the entire movie. Not one single laugh. So I didn't even have the social aspect to redeem the movie. And while I agree with pretty much everything you said about TDW, I can't help my fondness for it. I love its music, and Thor and Loki's escape from Asgard and then everything that happened on Svartálfheim are among my favorite scenes with those characters.
i still liked the film. yeah, it was a mess but a fun mess as i loved that it explored thor's own midlife crisis and the idea of idol-worshipping as thor knew he has to be a good example for the children of asgard despite all of the shit he went through. he also at least has someone to care for and hopefully be reunited with his brother. btw, russell crowe fucking KILLED me as zeus as i had never laughed so hard in a long time as i wanted more from him.
Great work man, I especially like your more academically structured videos they always scratch an itch for me, it grounds whatever abstract feelings I had on the subject. It's like catnip for me 🥴😅
Genuinely, it has to be either he didn’t care about this film or something happened behind the scenes With the Zeus stuff I’m starting to think that’s the case
I just saw Love and Thunder last night for the first time. Loved it. I don't understand how people could not enjoy the movie for what it was - a big adventure story with over the top comedy and pathos.
Everyone always forgets that the first thing Thor says when meeting with "Odin" in Ragnarok, is that the realms are in chaos, the armies of Asgard have been pulled back, and Heimdall isn't at his post.
Right, but we were expecting Loki to have been the main instigator of the chaos, but as it turns out, most of the chaos was due to Asgard having previously had an iron grip on the Nine Realms. The chaos came from firstly Loki's genocide attempt that ended in breaking the Rainbow Bridge and breaking Asgard's main source of transportation to its dependencies, and then Loki again deciding to ease on Asgard's policing while masquerading as Odin. It's actually pretty well-written, since Asgard is explicitly made out to be an imperialist power whose prosperity derived from the brutal oppression, looting and enslavement of others, and just like on Earth, when imperial powers left their colonies to fend for themselves, the latter immediately fell into chaos.
@@asdkotable The very obvious consequence of the Imperial power pulling out wasn't the colonies falling apart, it was the Thanos harvesting their resources and killing the people.
@@asdkotable Read back your own comment, I'm mirroring your rhetoric. Asgard's colonies, dependencies, and protectorates didn't collapse from within. Eitri was maimed and his people were all killed, when Asgard didn't chase off Thanos.
@@xsanguine8 @RZ again, how is Thanos a direct consequence of their imperialist past? The carnage in Nidavellir, sure, but not Thanos himself. Thanos had his own agenda, he didn't decide to become a genocidal maniac because of Asgard. The Nine Realms started falling apart immediately once Thor broke the rainbow bridge in Thor 1, he spent the time between Avengers 1 and TDW quelling uprisings and chaos in the Nine Realms. I feel like we're yelling over each other over some kind of misunderstanding.
I blame the Russo's for ruining Thor in Endgame. They made Thor unlearn every lesson from previous films, and be completely inconsistent with what they had set up. Regressed him to the point where he had to find himself all over again. Left him with no purpose or direction. Essentially, got rid of everything that made him a different character.
I completely agree. They received a character with tons of potential, and while they initially ran with it they just couldn’t help going the lazy route and turned him into Homer Simpson.
I love how people think Endgame ruined Thor when it's Ragnarok that did it. Endgame actually gave Thor vulnerability and emotional nunace. Ragnarok made him a canonically idiotic, manipulative asshole.
@@nope5657 Ragnorak left him in a great position to build him up, which Infinity War did. I think there were defintiely several mistakes they made with Ragnorak, but i think they repeated those same mistakes in Endgame. In fact, i think they actually did worse job in Engame. Endgame broke the character. There was no completed story or arc. No major revelation that got him out of his depression. He only really got out of his depression to be in the final battle. Didn't even do a serious take. Made both Thor and his depression into a complete joke. He also hid from and abandoned his own people. Leaving in charge some slaver who never even regretted the things she did for the Grand Master. This after just learning about the importance of Asgard as a people and not just a place. They made him unlearn every lesson he already learned from previous films. He ran away from his problems, which goes against what the previous 3 films had established. He always run towards his problems because "that's what heroes do." He regressed as a character. He was removed so far outside of what the character is that there is nowhere to go.
This genre didn't suit Thor at all. Infinity War Thor was so perfect, that he kind of felt as the Sole Protagonist of Infinity War among 50 other Heroes.
I need to watch this one again a few times but I enjoyed it - way more than Dark World. But I could be wrong - it was just nice getting closure true closure to Jane and Thor Odinson in any way - plus possibly her as a Valkyrie? We shall see
A very thoughtful examination of the entire series, though I can't say I'm surprised - that's what I've come to expect from this channel because it so frequently delivers that. That said, I always enjoy these because of that thought and examination. I enjoyed Love & Thunder, but you've hit the nail on the head about the problems I found - most of the first half felt like poorly thought out sketches (I think the Gorr moments worked well and there were good ideas fuelling other parts, they just leaned too heavily on silly) before coalescing into the proper story & themes as Jane, Valkyrie & Thor confronted Gorr in his place. From there, I feel the film generally worked because it seemed to know what it was trying to say and moments were focused on that rather than just...being generally goofy. The emotional beats in that latter portion still hit for me, partly due to buildup from previous films rather than this one, and I really appreciate the direction the climax went - I had not expected that turn but it is such a wonderful departure from expectations into a new facet of the character.
THANK YOU! I've been so frustrated at people lumping Thor 1 in with Thor 2. It's so much better, and they're nothing alike. I agree too that Thor 3 was very much the sequel Thor 1 deserved, and I was so happy that they went back to the wise and caring Odin after the character assassination he received in Dark world. Thor 1>Ragnarok>Love and Thunder>Dark World.
Really interesting since my opinion on Ragnarock and Love and Thunder is effectively switched. I have way, way more emotional connection to Love and Thunder and its themes than to Ragnarock. I adore Thor and Jane's relationship and how they learn to reconcile in realizing that they still care for each other. It just feels cohesive in its theme and messaging, far more than Ragnarock did to me. Everything leads back to love and caring and it's a very sweet and heartfelt message that really struck a cord with me.
Dark world took itself too seriously and felt overbearing, love and thunder has barely any seriousness whatsoever. Every moment there's a joke or quip and you can't feel the stakes at all. There needs to be a balance or it doesn't feel right which I think Thor Ragnarok had the best and most enjoyable showing of all the thor movies. Thor 3 > 1 > 4 > 2 for me.
Honestly if I could change things, I'd move love and thunder back to replace dark world. So we go from a story about him earning to become king, to a Shakespeare drama about love lost, and finishing off with him having nothing and rebuilding
You did a superb job of illustrating this film's potential. So many great themes could have been paid off but the film would rather just laugh at them. It's a very frustrating film.
Yeah, there is very little character contenuity in these films and it fucking sucks since they could have had incredible character arcs across the first 3 films with Thor, Loki and Odin
I don't realy mind Thor 2 as much as Others but I realy don't Like Thor 4. I guess this is on me but after Ragnarok and especially in Infinity war, Thor grew into one of my Favourite characters. I Liked the funner stuff in the beging of Ragnarok and that it went a little more serious around the end. In Infinity war you could realy feel what Thor went through, although He still Made Jokes with the Guardians. Thor 4 should have taken a different aproach. It should have it's fun Moments in the beginning but after the children got captured by gorr it should have gotten more serious. It never realy felt Like Something to worry about but the children of your whole City getting kidnapped should be pretty important. And for a Comedy the Jokes where realy cheap and Most of them Fell flat. The emotional Moments where also Undercut by this Cotton Candy Feeling around it all. Gorr was the only realy redeeming Part of the movie But even He was far worse than I would have hoped Hopefully this makes some Sort of Sense and sorry If there are any spelling mistakes english isn't my First language.
Ignoring the fact that the comedy in Love and Thunder was indeed aimless and random, the film did a wonderous job with making the themes of Thor as a character seem matured, and by that I mean that Thor has grown from his past experiences into a more wise and good person. Thor's development is not that disimilar with how life tends to be for many people. He starts with the happy and excitable, albeit immature, personality found in our teenage and young adult lives, followed by the weight of responsibility of true adulthood, followed by a midlife crisis seeking to reignite our passions and piece together everything we've learned, then lastly we come to our conclusions. Thors conclusion is love. What a great set of movies.
I recently saw Love & Thunder and almost immediately felt as though they'd lost the balance the last film *just* about managed to maintain. I enjoyed it anyway, but the elements I enjoyed so much in Ragnarok were too overwhelming in L&T.
I like Love and Thunder a lot, but you've really clarified some of what felt 'off' about it to me. Everyone complains about the jokes in Marvel movies in general and L&T specifically, but that critique never felt right to me because Ragnarok is just as jokey and feels perfectly coherent. A lot more of the jokes in L&T felt like Family Guy bits.
This is probably the most coherent critique of the Thor movies as a whole I’ve seen yet. It doesn’t JUST dog on L&T, instead it shows the strengths and weaknesses of the other films and why Thor 4 More Thors doesn’t work on a base level. At least I think that’s what I took away from this vid? Great work either way!
I took away the opposite on L&T, that the base idea works, but the comedy/improv takes away from the narrative instead of adding to it as it did in Ragnarok.
@@UltraLuigi2401 I completely agree with you & this video that the comedy/improv takes away from the movie. I feel like maybe not enough was said about the new Thor movie, and the vid was a bit like a retrospective of all of them? That’s why we have different opinions? But honestly you’re probably right lol. I was a bit busy eating lunch tbh.
@@dyll_pyckle well look at how the subsections are titled, a rise and fall would imply they believe L&T was the worst, which would sadly forget Dark World exists. Here's my issue though, I just cant watch anything that Natalie Portman is in because she will always be Padme to me (to add i hated her performance in these and star wars movies)
The 4 Thor movies remind me of the 4 Batmans.
The first 2 take themselves seriously (with some jokes of course).
Then for the third they brought in a comedy director (Schumacher/Waititi)to lighten it up and make it more marketable to the children. And because that works well the 4th is nothing but jokes or ice puns.
Huh. Hadn't thought of it like that. The comparison does fit come to think of it.
Ragnarok is definitely better than Batman Forever, but I’ve thought about this and it is similar.
I can't stand Thor Ragnarok for the same reason I can't stand batman forever, because they took a beforehand serious toned character and made him into a comedic idiot, marketed to undeveloped minds
I had that notion in the theater watching this trash and thought, they did it again.
If this analogy is accurate, I'll have to watch Dark World because Batman Returns is my favorite superhero movie
Ok but are we not gonna talk about how ragnarok just casually introduces the fact that Odin was a blood thirsty conquer and was barely talked about
Apparently not unfortunately
There isn’t really anything to add, the movie got to the point
Well said. From a purely fan perspective, I didn't think Love and Thunder was TERRIBLE, but it definitely let me down. It's not Morbius level bad, but could have been so much better if they'd just slowed down and thought about what they were writing a little more.
Man you're so wrong. Morbius was a morbiuspiece!
As a fan, I have to disagree. I skipped Thor 4 in theaters, and then bought it, I wanted to take it back I hated it so much.
Thor is a lesson in how, when you have a setting as vast and unbounded as a comics universe (itself being rooted in a pastiche of different genres), the character arc should drive the genre, NOT the other way around. Genre is largely about the role that setting and tone play in meta-commentary about character behavior. Thor 1 was partially about the bickering of a larger-than-life royal family, which is why operatic, Shakespearean stage play made perfect sense for Asgard, and partly a classic lesson in humility for a pompous prince, which is why a lighthearted small town rom-com feeling worked perfectly for Earth. These genre choices reinforced the message that Thor was spoiled and took his minor problems way too seriously.
Part of why Thor TDW stumbled is because I don't think the film had a clear vision for its characters' arcs, and although a lot of PLOT happened, there wasn't much of any character growth nor any consistent message about it. Who was at fault for what happened with Jane, and did anyone learn anything after all this? Is curiosity bad actually? Was Thor absentee? Also, what does Thor think about the mixed message about his lesson in humility last movie and the constant need for vigilance in a dangerous universe implied in this movie? And what about Loki's false redemption arc? Is the message that we're all doomed to play our parts and nothing ever changes? If so, maybe spending more time in the distant past would have helped. Look to historical war dramas for inspiration.
Ragnarok worked better because its arc was about reconciliation, hope, and heroism. If you want your audience to believe it's possible to save Loki from villainy, and that he's really just a misunderstood scamp, go with the family comedy. Love and humor in light of your struggles is exactly what family-oriented comedy is all about. Ragnarok, I think, was about how Thor sees his journey up to this point and for that reason, it's fittingly celebratory. But it was also, perhaps unintentionally, about the fact that Thor has actually had it really easy.
That's why lastly, Thor was absolutely magnificent in Infinity War because it was an immediate tonal shift, a punishing repudiation of hope, turning Thor's positivity against him. His attempt at facing bleakness with humor and hope and heroism is still there, but it's dark and comes off bitter, angry, and vengeful.
Wow an actually thoughtful and educated critique in 2022? Love it.
As someone who really did like L&T, but acknowledged it has several flaws, it was nice to see a thoughtful review like this that didn't just devolve into "JOKES BAD, WHY THOR LADY NOW".
Your channel is quickly becoming a favorite of mine and I really appreciate the thoughtful, scholarly insight into different forms and types of media.
This was a good THOUGHTFUL critique of 4, unlike so many other fanboys who are just like It sucks!
I loved four mainly because of the love and romance AND the full circle lessons of overcoming trauma (the thing was he was still trying to avoid the feelings with disassociated humor, which was painful to watch but accurate!), forgiving, and persevering in love. The adopted daughter even if clumsily set up was still beautiful!
But yes there was still an overuse of jokes that DIDNT contribute to the characters arcs and relationships.
There are plenty of videos saying why it sucks, maybe you should search for those
@@ninjanibba4259 except almost all of them miss the point of Thor in general and L&T specifically.
@@casteanpreswyn7528 no they don’t cuz he’s not even taken seriously and they’re right, that’s why complains happen
agreed. I didnt mind the jokes, but agreed. I think the arcs needed more room to develop in their place. But I think thats because of rushed production and less because Taika didnt want to explore Gorr and Jane more.
@@casteanpreswyn7528 people missed the point with L&T ? Tell me, what was the point of that movie ? NONE, it shouldn’t even be displayed at cinema because the movie doesn’t even bother to try and make us interested, it’s like it was purposely done for you to just watch and laugh and move on.
The movie only had point in MCU fanatics head canon, explaining everything as deep coping or whatever they mistake themselves into continuing to support bland content passed as anything of artistic value, when it’s much worse, they simply don’t care about FILM, it’s just a way to keep shills watching big ash trailers and the fanboys will defend blandness as the highest form of art
Just the fact people think the MCU is a FILM success proves my point, it destroys cinema in so many aspects and worse, it paints super hero genre as bland and pointless but due to fanboys it will stick, and so now generic interpretations of characters without caring for cinematography, storytelling, CONSEQUENCE, score, tone, the lack of these film aspects is revered by critics and not even discussed anymore for these films.
All that Marvel and Disney had to do was care, nothing less nothing more
Probably my favourite channel. I can’t fathom how well you articulate story structures and themes and the links you make to sociology and psychology. It’s so insightful. It’s completely changed the way I view films and write my own stuff for film. I’m currently studying film at uni and I may as well put you as part of my citation at the end of my essays lol. I’m pretty sure the perspectives you offer in films has changed the way I’ve looked at the world. Thanks Leo 🙏🏾
I've never had someone explain to me so clearly why I didn't like Ragnarok, even though I recognize it as a good film, because, even though I recognize it as a bad film, I did really like the characterizations done in The Dark World.
Also, I still think The Dark World is the best Loki movie we've gotten so far. The Loki series is really good, don't get me wrong, I love the TVA, but it misses so hard on making an interesting LOKI story.
Right there with ya on the Loki show. The series around him is great, but they cut so many corners on his character. That moment where he expresses concern for the people on Lamentis after trying to enslave a planet, like, a few days ago is baffling. Tom Hiddleston is owed all the praise for keeping what character consistency there is.
Honestly Loki’s show doesn’t really feel like it’s his show but it’s Sylvie’s show.He gets beat up and outsmarted by every other characters in the show whearas Sylvie constantly beats up anyone she fights.I would have much rather seen the show focus on how evil and mischievous Loki’s characters is/was since they pulled him from the time period of the Phase 1-2 movies rather than introducing more multiversal nonsensical storylines that Marvel can’t seem to tell properly
The TVA never got me interested to see more of them,their just variations of regular human beings using god like items to protect the timeline who are jobbers and uninteresting characters. Marvel really rushed Loki’s character development from the previous movies he was in just so that they have him be the good version of Loki we all grew to care about until Thanos killed him off at the end
Take out Sylvie who is just an uninteresting version of Loki and Kang/the multiverse nonsense and we could have gotten an introspective/retrospective look on Loki’s character.He could have been the main protagonist/antagonist of the show whose playing the TVA for fools and could tricked them in the end by making them think they had him under control when it was the other way around but nah we got to have Sylvie make the big sacrifice and watch Loki simp for her
Very interesting opinion
@Erik Kemeey Out of all the things you could have said about my comment,that was the one thing was you had nitpick
Just wanted to say... Not often you find someone who actually understands the difference between liking/disliking something VS knowing whether it is actually good or bad.
It's insane the amount of people who mistake those things... thinking that if they like something(or if something is popular/successful) it's because it must good(as if there was no way they could ever enjoy something of bad quality). Yet when you criticize with valid points and explain why something is not as good(or bad) as they think it is, they come with the classic "Well, taste is subjective... everyone is entitlted to their own opinon".
That's what "TASTE IS SUBJECTIVE" truly means after all. That we get to like or dislike things IN SPITE of the intrinsic elements of the content and it's undeniable value... Not that the value of said elements of said content are subject to each person's criteria(at least not all the elements... I mean, somethings ARE subjective after all, but not all of them). That's like saying reality is shaped according to each one's perception. Just nonsense.
Most people don't care about objectivity(as in, putting the bias aside and judging things for what they truly are on their own, and not how one feels about it), they just want to validate themselves or protect their ego from getting hurt cause they cannot accept the idea that their "criteria" could possibly fail them, not even once.
PS: Or maybe I'm the biased mofo who cannot see past his own nose. Who can truly know it with certainity.
I miss when Thor Odinson was a more serious character I never found him boring to me that made him so unique and different from Iron Man and the other avengers
The writers haven’t been bothered to do the legwork for a serious character like that, it’s much easier to just make Thor a joke which is sad to me.
love and thunder was a middle of the road film for me, because some jokes fell flat but other scenes were absolutely gorgeous. i really don't get how people have such hatred for the damn thing. like i can get not enjoying it but there are people who are foaming at the mouth over this.
The tonal shifts are too much for some people. I cold have used more Gore and Jane as Mighty Thor,..both seem a bit underserved. But I enjoyed the movie a lot. However I hope they make a course correction for Thor
@@terryshrk i think they will. the funniest thing about this for me is hwo so many people were crying about how the MCU was static, it all looked the same, no movie had its own flavor. to let creatives have more freedom to do what they want... and now they got it. love and thunder and multiverse of madness is what you get when you have two directors with VERY specific film styles do what they want. like what did you expect from sam raimi if you took off the reins? now everyone is bitching about it, and don't get that they used the monkeys paw.
@@Morlock19 well I mean one thing to consider is Raimi exactly have all the reins let loose, there were still a lot of studio mandates that clearly bled into the film as visibly as Raimi's touch.
As for L&T, I think a lot of it has more to do with Thor's characterization and An underutilization of Gorr as a villain, both of which are more likely than not the effect of Taika Watiti claiming he can do the comic story better than the comic and outrightly refusing to go into the source material.
Maybe there have been some rather extreme opinions you've come across, I personally haven't, most of the reviews I watch essentially share and focus on these particular sentiments but from what I believe is the majority of movie watchers, these are the clearest defined complaints
@@dedrik1461 most of the comments i've come across are talking shit about the comedy aspect specifically... that the jokes didn't land for them or how he made thor too jokey. and i'm not saying its a perfect movie at all, like i said it was middle of the road for me. not as bad as dark world, not as good as first thor. but the humor is what i expected from taika watiti, and it really seemed like everyone else was taken by surprise. it was an odd discourse to watch.
your comments here? totally valid. the gor stuff seemed divorced from the rest of the movie. as for the comic story... i honestly wish that they actually took jane and made her into another ongoing asguardian hero, and then they could go ahead and do the full mighty thor run.
also... someone else for A-Force...
anyways people are weird, a ton of very loud people are complaining about everything marvel is putting out, and its annoying.
@@Morlock19 that's really unfortunate, it's sad to see people mindlessly attack something you love. I feel that you at least share some common sentiments with those people, like the sentiment of wasted opportunity, speaking as someone who isn't particularly pleased with Marvel's current content I can honestly say I'm not even sure what I was expecting from phase 4
Looking back, it's not like every film could possibly change my life and I rather enjoyed moon knight and loki by myself so I doubt it's simply Superhero fatigue.
Perhaps at it's base form, stripping away the lack of a focal point like Tony Stark or newer heroes that seemingly don't carry the weight of the originals. I'd say many fans are just reacting out of fear really. If it was one or two problems perhaps we'd be quite content to let these things slide but the creeping barrage of problems that only seems to compound with time sets off the warning bells that lead to this diversive sea of tension we face now. If there were a few projects slated with mediocre stories but amazing visual fx or vice versa, if there were tons of projects with heartfelt stories and limited vfx, perhaps we wouldn't be in this state. But an overworked visual fx crew, a packed slate with sometimes outright questionable launches and average stories, an over-commercialisation of the content and no news of a defined plan, something we as MCU fans are practically unaccustomed to (this isn't DC after all), leaves us- well, with our dicks in hands. And those who lack either the patience or willingness to seek the roots of this frustration, do what they can - hate and rage. A collective consciousness feeding off it's hate, frankly ruining a once proud fandom
To be fair, a LOT happens to Thor in between his self-titled movies which could have significant affects on his current outlook by the time of each...
To be fair, that's not an excuse, because otherwise that A LOT should happen on screen, or otherwise it doesn't exist. It's bad filmmaking. His change of personality makes zero sense. He went from "You think this is funny, Stark?" to "I don't even like Banner; he's all numbers and stuff" in just one movie.
Yeah some of the choices for this film really made no sense, alot of the humour seemed really ill fitting once the story got going. I'm kinda amazed they replaced unworthy Thor with a series of jokes about Stormbringer getting jealous and just let New Asgard exist as a joke, without questioning if Valkyrie really was the best choice as King (not that she isn't, she's totally competent but she's also let their culture be turned into a tourist trap?), It's a very funny film but it feels like Marvel told Waititi to do another Ragnarok rather then let him get Thor's story Arc back on track.
Actually I think Valkyrie is a terrible choice for King because she was a freaking slave trader.
On multiple watches I honestly feel like Love & Thunder feels *less* like a series of skits than Ragnarok does. I personally feel way more of an emotional thematic thrust to the former than I do the latter, even if the comedy is more intrusive.
This, exactly this. The final scene between Jane and Thor is one of _maybe_ three in the entire MCU to bring tears to my eyes. It's still a beautiful story of rediscovering relationships thought long gone.
@@pance_9912 I couldn't take Jane's death for what is was supposed to be. To me she was being wasted in a movie that barely gave her enough room to breath, and this after that amazing moment when she received the hammer from Taika on stage that promised so much more.
Good point
@@2nd3rd1st I think they did pretty good by her! But yes again focused on jokes tad too much rather than dev characters. So lost some Jane time. And lost Jane Valkyrie time. But they had to include ALOT Gorr gayardians, romance, thor arc, action etc
Yeah but you think She Hulk is good, so who cares what The Ponderer thinks?
I didn't know why ppl hate on L&T before until you mention of core themes getting "diluted". Now I still like it, but I also see the wasted opportunity there.
By the way the films are going, I am confident that the next Thor film will be great.
Oh hey, I’m literally working on my own Love & Thunder video as I watch this. Excellently insightful as always.
9:09 yeah I was expecting something nefarious or maybe mischievous from King Loki and instead he built statues of himself and opened a drama program.
Wait, Thor adopts a kid? He's a dad now?
Yeah Chris Hemsworth's actual daughter is his daughter in Thor now
@@Far2Sega4U that's adorable. And huh, another Avenger with a kid.
@@Far2Sega4U Fun fact:
Yeah I thought Loki was going to be a rogue agent in the next film and would become a dangerous threat to both heroes and villains
A good critique. Too many people are saying Love & Thunder sucks or ruined Thor, when it's an okay movie that didn't have enough focus on the story, and in the end served to undo the damage to Thor's character from Endgame and give Jane a proper continuation after she was written off after Thor 1.
i fully get critiques and not liking L&T but i’m sorry dude i just loved it haha. i had a fucking blast watch it! just had to show my love dude. FUking loved it!
Love and Thunder makes me worry that maybe Waititi got lucky with the themes of Ragnorok and was just trying to make a goofy fun superhero movie the first time... almost makes me want to roll the dice on number 5 lol
Waititi wasted the momentum he had with Ragnarok and that's why Love and Thunder feels so rushed, so SNL. Heck! at some points, it was like watching an oversized TikTok clip. The love story between Thor and Jane withered already years ago. Seeing them together again felt like watching two former Highschool sweethearts at their 10 years reunion. Pretty awkward and no chemistry.
But, hey! we had screaming goats, Thor's butt, King Valkyrie (lol) and Korg having more lines than Thor. That should count for something, right?
I liked going back to Jane!!! They just totally dropped that story char and romance without ANY reason or closure. He was totally in love then just nothing??? It was only right to bring hernnack
It’s crazy how Zeus and Gorr are consistently the only parts that I had fun with in this movie
Funny you should mention retconning with Thor Ragnarök. Taika Waititi, Mark Ruffalo, and Chris Hemsworth all agreed to a retconning approach to the films narrative and breaking the established continuity. Which I'm pretty sure is a bit of a bad idea since it resets the characters and has the audience readjust their understandings partway through the series.
Dark World is still my favourite Thor movie. The characterization of Thor and Loki (who felt like a secondary protagonist) was the best we've gotten from them by far. Watch their scenes together and try to tell me they were not fun, dramatic and did their characters justice.
That Spider String end was so out of left field it left me laughing. Thanks! I needed that.
I don't know if you've ever blatantly said in your videos before that you didn't like a marvel movie. Even movies that weren't that good, you always somehow put a positive spin on them and redeemed them for me as a viewer. The fact that you couldn't or didn't do it for this one goes to show just how much the movie didn't work for the larger audience. Also I think the Thor in this movie was more like the Party Thor from what if in terms of his sense of responsibility for simply heroism rather than personal growth. What do you think?
He did mention a lot of positive things he thought about it though. It actually gave me a bit more credit for the movie.
@@foreverfirebird5712 yes he did provide context to the movie as he always does, but he did not hide the fact that he didn't like it, is what I meant to say. Sorry if that wasn't clear in my comment
Yeah he def still liked the movie! 😂
@@kritichaplot5025 he literally says he liked watching the movie with his friends and laughing along
@@kritichaplot5025 At no point in the video does he state that he didn't like it.
Maybe it's the single dad in me, but even with the offbeat improv I felt impacted by L&T.
It told a story of chasing lost love, rekindling it through honesty, then losing it almost immediately bc thats how cruel life can be.
And then finding new, nurturing love in unexpected places.
And it also tells the story of how the villain won. He truly bested the heroes. But he gave faith and hope one last chance bc of his own love for his daughter. Her being the one thing that he could not give up on.
Despite thinking he knew better and having the ability to give in to hate, he chose what any dedicated parent would do.
Between Thor L&T and Shang Chi, and to a degree Dr Strange MoM, I'm imagining a through line about family and succession.
I suppose that all started with Spiderman NWH. Or Black Widow.
Actually, Hawkeye and Ms Marvel also share those themes.
This is basically an analysis of genres with the Thor movies as the medium. Well done. 🔥
This was super good! I found mysef disagreeing a little bit with love and thunder. How I viewed the jokes were a bit different. On surface level they completely are non essential random skits but when I look back on the movie I feel like they reflect the message of living in the moment. They’re ridiculous but they’re a reminder to the audience to not take everything so seriously and it all kinda culminates in the last scene.
Barry watched love and thunder tonight’s ago and I really love it it’s really great
The ONLY Movie Commentry channel that doesn't just CASH IN on stupid titles like "Why this is TRASH" and give nothing more than their mainstream accepatable opinion where SHEEP puppet all the talking points everyone ALREADY knows in the comments😭🤦♂️
I LOVE this channel. May 1 Mill subs be on your future😂🙏💯
Exactly what I was thinking, respect for that. 👊
Regarding the genre branding, I'd say by the time we got to Thor 4 the only way to define what that movie is, is to call it "a Marvel movie".
My biggest problem was the fact that they ironically butchered gor's character, and the conflict both morally and physically that he presents. He challenges theology and what it should be and even made Thor question how worthy he actually was, and he became so powerful he kicked three different Thor's asses at once.
Finally, a video about love and thunder that isn't reduced to "tHiS mOviE sUckS". Even though I enjoyed the movie in general, the comedy and improv it's not as good as in ragnarok and the main plot could have been more impactful, but it just felt like something was missing.
And one thing that really bothered me about the film is that, in the beginning, Thor is kind of set up as an uncaring and arrogant god (like when he only joined the battle when someone asked him and he destroyed that sacred temple despite being told not to), but the movie never addresses that issue again. With that scene, I thought the story was going to be about how Thor is not like other gods who don't care and he really tries to do better. And he's better than most, of course, but it never comes across like that. It's an aspect I wish they had explored because it has so much potential, but whatever, I guess.
I love that you identified the core themes Love and Thunder is going for and how they could have created a pretty compelling film if they had actually been pulled off properly
Love and Thunder proves Thor needs Loki more than Loki needs Thor. i love the first Thor, it's my favorite MCU film. i like The Dark World, it's more important than i think people realize, without it a lot of things don't work
I'm so glad you were able to articulate the reason why I didn't like Love and Thunder: Taika got in his own way with the improv rather than focusing on the true heart of the story. Which ulitmately makes the entire film a frustrating mess.
Just want to leave this here, knowing that there's even a slight chance of you seeing this comment. I absolutely fuckin love your videos. Your essays never fails to entertain and resonate with me, from the editing, voice over, transition, and especially, es-fucking-pecially your music choices. Thank you for being here???... I don't know where I wanted to go with this comment I'm on my meds and I'm numb. THANK YOUUU
The end credits scene of this video. Nostalgia.
That bass tone on the closing song is soooo fucking dope. That is all.
You somehow managed to articulately put to words an abstract feeling I had experienced when watching the movie. Bravo, my good man. 👏
this really made me want to revisit the thor films and especially dive into the comics. brilliant video!
THIS is literally the only L&T review i've watched past the first minute, because as much as i enjoyed this movie, i understand its flaws, and can accept them without letting them ruin the movie as a whole. That being said, i still think L&T is a very fun movie, and follows the vibes and themes of Ragnorok, by continuing and maintaining the new tone of Thor solo movies. *Thank You* for not following the trend of knit-picking small problems, and making a mountain out a molehill. Ragnorok was so good, that surpassing it would be extremely difficult, and in my opinion, if it did, it would still garner the same vitriol that comes with all the new Phase 4 Marvel content.
Love the channel, Love the videos, Love the introspection.
Interesting take. I went to see L&T alone and the theater was almost empty. No one laughed during the entire movie. Not one single laugh. So I didn't even have the social aspect to redeem the movie.
And while I agree with pretty much everything you said about TDW, I can't help my fondness for it. I love its music, and Thor and Loki's escape from Asgard and then everything that happened on Svartálfheim are among my favorite scenes with those characters.
i still liked the film. yeah, it was a mess but a fun mess as i loved that it explored thor's own midlife crisis and the idea of idol-worshipping as thor knew he has to be a good example for the children of asgard despite all of the shit he went through. he also at least has someone to care for and hopefully be reunited with his brother. btw, russell crowe fucking KILLED me as zeus as i had never laughed so hard in a long time as i wanted more from him.
Great work man, I especially like your more academically structured videos they always scratch an itch for me, it grounds whatever abstract feelings I had on the subject. It's like catnip for me 🥴😅
This was really good, and really well-considered.
I love taika waititi's movies and personality. And jojo rabbit is my top 3 but this movie has to be done just for the sake of paycheck
Genuinely, it has to be either he didn’t care about this film or something happened behind the scenes
With the Zeus stuff I’m starting to think that’s the case
@@ItsButterBean1020
Apparently Waititi wanted the film to be 4 hours and really dark until Marvel forced him to make it like Ragnarok
I appreciate you being theoretical and citing works you read.
I just saw Love and Thunder last night for the first time.
Loved it.
I don't understand how people could not enjoy the movie for what it was - a big adventure story with over the top comedy and pathos.
Everyone always forgets that the first thing Thor says when meeting with "Odin" in Ragnarok, is that the realms are in chaos, the armies of Asgard have been pulled back, and Heimdall isn't at his post.
Right, but we were expecting Loki to have been the main instigator of the chaos, but as it turns out, most of the chaos was due to Asgard having previously had an iron grip on the Nine Realms. The chaos came from firstly Loki's genocide attempt that ended in breaking the Rainbow Bridge and breaking Asgard's main source of transportation to its dependencies, and then Loki again deciding to ease on Asgard's policing while masquerading as Odin. It's actually pretty well-written, since Asgard is explicitly made out to be an imperialist power whose prosperity derived from the brutal oppression, looting and enslavement of others, and just like on Earth, when imperial powers left their colonies to fend for themselves, the latter immediately fell into chaos.
@@asdkotable The very obvious consequence of the Imperial power pulling out wasn't the colonies falling apart, it was the Thanos harvesting their resources and killing the people.
@@xsanguine8 how is Thanos a direct consequence of their imperialist past? At most it's an indirect consequence.
@@asdkotable Read back your own comment, I'm mirroring your rhetoric. Asgard's colonies, dependencies, and protectorates didn't collapse from within. Eitri was maimed and his people were all killed, when Asgard didn't chase off Thanos.
@@xsanguine8 @RZ again, how is Thanos a direct consequence of their imperialist past? The carnage in Nidavellir, sure, but not Thanos himself. Thanos had his own agenda, he didn't decide to become a genocidal maniac because of Asgard. The Nine Realms started falling apart immediately once Thor broke the rainbow bridge in Thor 1, he spent the time between Avengers 1 and TDW quelling uprisings and chaos in the Nine Realms.
I feel like we're yelling over each other over some kind of misunderstanding.
I blame the Russo's for ruining Thor in Endgame. They made Thor unlearn every lesson from previous films, and be completely inconsistent with what they had set up. Regressed him to the point where he had to find himself all over again. Left him with no purpose or direction. Essentially, got rid of everything that made him a different character.
I completely agree. They received a character with tons of potential, and while they initially ran with it they just couldn’t help going the lazy route and turned him into Homer Simpson.
I love how people think Endgame ruined Thor when it's Ragnarok that did it. Endgame actually gave Thor vulnerability and emotional nunace. Ragnarok made him a canonically idiotic, manipulative asshole.
@@nope5657 Ragnorak left him in a great position to build him up, which Infinity War did. I think there were defintiely several mistakes they made with Ragnorak, but i think they repeated those same mistakes in Endgame. In fact, i think they actually did worse job in Engame. Endgame broke the character. There was no completed story or arc. No major revelation that got him out of his depression. He only really got out of his depression to be in the final battle. Didn't even do a serious take. Made both Thor and his depression into a complete joke.
He also hid from and abandoned his own people. Leaving in charge some slaver who never even regretted the things she did for the Grand Master. This after just learning about the importance of Asgard as a people and not just a place.
They made him unlearn every lesson he already learned from previous films. He ran away from his problems, which goes against what the previous 3 films had established. He always run towards his problems because "that's what heroes do." He regressed as a character. He was removed so far outside of what the character is that there is nowhere to go.
I watched Justice league because of you. Thank you.
This genre didn't suit Thor at all. Infinity War Thor was so perfect, that he kind of felt as the Sole Protagonist of Infinity War among 50 other Heroes.
I need to watch this one again a few times but I enjoyed it - way more than Dark World. But I could be wrong - it was just nice getting closure true closure to Jane and Thor Odinson in any way - plus possibly her as a Valkyrie? We shall see
A very thoughtful examination of the entire series, though I can't say I'm surprised - that's what I've come to expect from this channel because it so frequently delivers that. That said, I always enjoy these because of that thought and examination.
I enjoyed Love & Thunder, but you've hit the nail on the head about the problems I found - most of the first half felt like poorly thought out sketches (I think the Gorr moments worked well and there were good ideas fuelling other parts, they just leaned too heavily on silly) before coalescing into the proper story & themes as Jane, Valkyrie & Thor confronted Gorr in his place. From there, I feel the film generally worked because it seemed to know what it was trying to say and moments were focused on that rather than just...being generally goofy. The emotional beats in that latter portion still hit for me, partly due to buildup from previous films rather than this one, and I really appreciate the direction the climax went - I had not expected that turn but it is such a wonderful departure from expectations into a new facet of the character.
I loved love and thunder
It took me five seconds to understand what they were going for and set my own ideas aside
I loved it thoroughly
I love Love And Thunder so much!!! My favorite Thor movie
THANK YOU! I've been so frustrated at people lumping Thor 1 in with Thor 2. It's so much better, and they're nothing alike. I agree too that Thor 3 was very much the sequel Thor 1 deserved, and I was so happy that they went back to the wise and caring Odin after the character assassination he received in Dark world.
Thor 1>Ragnarok>Love and Thunder>Dark World.
I really like loving thunder bit silly but still had a heart
Thor 4 : Thor - Crash and Burn
To me Love and Thunder was so lacking in dramatic integrity that most of the humor fell flat as well. I couldn't bring myself to enjoy this movie.
Really interesting since my opinion on Ragnarock and Love and Thunder is effectively switched.
I have way, way more emotional connection to Love and Thunder and its themes than to Ragnarock.
I adore Thor and Jane's relationship and how they learn to reconcile in realizing that they still care for each other.
It just feels cohesive in its theme and messaging, far more than Ragnarock did to me. Everything leads back to love and caring and it's a very sweet and heartfelt message that really struck a cord with me.
Dark world took itself too seriously and felt overbearing, love and thunder has barely any seriousness whatsoever. Every moment there's a joke or quip and you can't feel the stakes at all. There needs to be a balance or it doesn't feel right which I think Thor Ragnarok had the best and most enjoyable showing of all the thor movies. Thor 3 > 1 > 4 > 2 for me.
Honestly if I could change things, I'd move love and thunder back to replace dark world. So we go from a story about him earning to become king, to a Shakespeare drama about love lost, and finishing off with him having nothing and rebuilding
You did a superb job of illustrating this film's potential. So many great themes could have been paid off but the film would rather just laugh at them. It's a very frustrating film.
So what I'm hearing in that last part is that Loki should have been in Love and Thunder so Waititi could have him and Thor bounce off each other
RIP Thor franchise.
Nice video, and very good analysis.
Another great essay
Yeah, there is very little character contenuity in these films and it fucking sucks since they could have had incredible character arcs across the first 3 films with Thor, Loki and Odin
I still think Thor 1 is still the best Thor movie in my opinion
Mythology Protagonist meets Space SciFi genre is Ragnarok, but love and thunder is a Parody.
Thank you for this video.
Favorite channel love it
I don't realy mind Thor 2 as much as Others but I realy don't Like Thor 4. I guess this is on me but after Ragnarok and especially in Infinity war, Thor grew into one of my Favourite characters. I Liked the funner stuff in the beging of Ragnarok and that it went a little more serious around the end. In Infinity war you could realy feel what Thor went through, although He still Made Jokes with the Guardians. Thor 4 should have taken a different aproach. It should have it's fun Moments in the beginning but after the children got captured by gorr it should have gotten more serious. It never realy felt Like Something to worry about but the children of your whole City getting kidnapped should be pretty important. And for a Comedy the Jokes where realy cheap and Most of them Fell flat. The emotional Moments where also Undercut by this Cotton Candy Feeling around it all. Gorr was the only realy redeeming Part of the movie But even He was far worse than I would have hoped
Hopefully this makes some Sort of Sense and sorry If there are any spelling mistakes english isn't my First language.
Thor jumped the shark when he stopped those two flying space car things by doing the splits. As soon as that happened I knew the movie was a turd.
Magnificent.
This was so deep and interesting, but my favorite part was when you accidentally said “life of tree”
Ignoring the fact that the comedy in Love and Thunder was indeed aimless and random, the film did a wonderous job with making the themes of Thor as a character seem matured, and by that I mean that Thor has grown from his past experiences into a more wise and good person. Thor's development is not that disimilar with how life tends to be for many people. He starts with the happy and excitable, albeit immature, personality found in our teenage and young adult lives, followed by the weight of responsibility of true adulthood, followed by a midlife crisis seeking to reignite our passions and piece together everything we've learned, then lastly we come to our conclusions. Thors conclusion is love. What a great set of movies.
please make more agents of shield videos i need them
I recently saw Love & Thunder and almost immediately felt as though they'd lost the balance the last film *just* about managed to maintain.
I enjoyed it anyway, but the elements I enjoyed so much in Ragnarok were too overwhelming in L&T.
Is see it as if he goes back to being too serious people would hate it but if he remains the same they’d claim to be sick of it
I like Love and Thunder a lot, but you've really clarified some of what felt 'off' about it to me. Everyone complains about the jokes in Marvel movies in general and L&T specifically, but that critique never felt right to me because Ragnarok is just as jokey and feels perfectly coherent. A lot more of the jokes in L&T felt like Family Guy bits.
Good stuff here!
thank you!
THIS IS GREAT!
Love & Thunder feels like a bad Marvel themed episode of Family Guy
Nah Family Guy would have been funnier.
I feel like i'm the only one that likes every single Thor movie
1:08 Anybody know the music?
Home Thor gets DMC 5 like treatment.
You are amazing
Lore of Thor vs Genre Theory momentum 100
How's the Young Justice Season 3 video essay coming along?
I need to know what is the song that plays during the credits in all his videos?!?
fat thor was the beginning of the end for me
Gorr from the movie is just a less successful Kratos and you can't convince me otherwise.
Edit: Greek era Kratos
3:53 *Warning to Headphone Users*
When are we getting the next agents of shield video?