If its mild steel that doesn't harden well. A steel with more carbon will better harden. I think you absolutely can harden parts you make. Hacko is really pushing for excellence and he should inspire not discourage. A good test is to file the part first and then compare how well the file works after hardening to get a sense of the change. Using those hand engravers before and after on the head of the screw would give you a feel for the effect of the hardening. Hard to tell on video but you maybe needed to heat a little more. Lovely video, thanks
Thanks so much for this comment! I will do another video with before and after testing / comparisons following your advice, including on small screws I plan to make myself, because that's the ultimate reason to do it. Make it out of annealed steel and then harden it and check that the hardening worked and also made it stronger and not too brittle. Very cool! I never imagined that making screws could be so much fun! (I would add some laughing emojis but I'm serious!) 😂😂😂
As others pointed out, not all steels can be hardened. If this screw is made from silver steel/drill rod it should harden fine in a water quench. When you look at the screw in the end, you can see that the threads were squished by the pliers. If the material was properly hard, I would not expect deformation, but rather breaking (or no change to the screw). I suspect you were a bit slow and the screw was already to cold, when it hit the water. Instead of picking a hot screw of a plate, I think it is a better idea to suspend the screw with a thin piece of steel wire. So you can keep a hold of the screw while heating it and immediately dunk it in water.
In blacksmithing, we relate the tempering colors to how much hardness we're taking out. They call it running the colors. Everything has a specific color for the type of use. Blue is pretty far up the scale. 390 to 575. Graver would be faint yellow so still very hard. A drill would be taken to blue, so hold less of an edge but has better toughness. And then theirs science if you can afford it. :-) You can also get a set of Rockwell files which will bite when the hardness is below their value and slide off when above.
Something very few people know, if you use a surfectant (dish soap) you can get even mild steel to become harder, somewhere in the region of 40~45 Rockwell C. Usually mild steel is around 30~35 RC Salt in quench water is a myth, it does nothing to affect hardness. (which your probably aware of?) Steam prevents water actually touching part, (as a blacksmith you know this) surfectants help, a lot. Most people seem to use hardness testing files from Japan, around $90.00 a set
Nice episode! Great to see you try new stuff! I recommend getting a couple of Jeweller's Block/Fire bricks/Soldering blocks. They are inexpensive, lay them in a corner to make a great workspace. Small crucible with Boric acid to protect the part and then quench with saltwater. It would be easily done with small parts in a small workspace like the corner of the workshop using a barbecue torch. Thanks for sharing!
Thanks! I hadn't see your channel before! I watched your Rolex 1603 video and subscribed! Nice work! It looks like you're in China but I thought you guys couldn't get through the great firewall. Are you in Taiwan? Somewhere else? (Just curious. My wife is from Taiwan and I've worked in both Taiwan and mainland China - Shanghai, Beijing, Hong Kong.)
Not quite…. The brass chips don’t impart anything to the steel, chemical or otherwise. They do, however, evenly distribute the heat, and allow you to sneak up on the correct temperature for whatever color you’re trying to reach. As for the colors of steel when heated, what he talks about in the video is correct: it’s all about creating a thin film of oxidation on the steel, the thickness of which determines the color of the light that is reflected from the part.
I enjoyed the video but I did want to say something about heat treating steel. the problem with talking about hardening tempering and annealing steel is that the temperatures and techniques change with the type of steel you use. for example W1 steel is supposed to be dipped in water to harden and o1 needs oil but many stainless steels need to be pressed between aluminum plates to be hardened (it is called plate quenching) . the same is true for all aspects of working with steel but as a general rule tool steel can be heated red hot and if a magnet doesn't stick to it you can drop it in vegetable oil (water can crack steel that isn't designed to be water hardened) to harden it or leave it in air to anneal it. heat bluing it will usually temper non stainless steels well enough for most tasks.
Thanks for your comment! I've seen the ovens with timers to get the correct cool down times for annealing, and it seems to me that to be able to do full heat treatment of steel you've got to have one of those, plus the various quick cooling solutions, boric acid to control oxidation when you don't want it, brass chips to distribute the heat, large and small torches, complete molecular knowledge of the alloy you're working with, and a formal education in metallurgy. And that's why it's so damn interesting! 😂😂😂
If I remember correctly the quench should occur at the critical temperature but not at much higher temps. With larger parts it is much easier to have a magnet wand to test for the loss of magnetism. But with tiny parts not so easy as the screw would stick to magnet every time you test. Plus the heat loss in the screw is so fast. An easier way to try this is with some hi carb steel rods where you can hold one end with vise grips and heat the other end with the torch. Then you can swipe it on a low power magnet to test for critical temp. Then see how long before magnetism returns. This will then give you an idea of the speed needed for quenching. I remember doing this with some small spring steel stock and it shattered like glass when I hit it.
Pretty sure dropping screw first attempt allowed it to cool too much so didn't harden properly? 'Dead hard' it would have marked jaws of pliers. As a few people mentioned, check hardness with an ordinary file, if part 'skates' over file, it's hard then can be tempered as needed. I believe a very old method is to put screws in molten lead for low temper (softer) and bluing? Screwdriver made a pretty good graver 😁
The first thing you needed to know.was the material spec, without it, attempts to harden unknown materials is fruitless. Heat treatment requires certain methods, practices and most of all tools as well as a well ventilated place to work. None of which you have. Same thing with the lathe. Get a cross slide and some onsite help. IOW, find someone to show you the basics so you dont hurt yourself.
Another useful video thanks. Have you tried to remove a fixed link from a steel bracelet? The screw head that is used to secure the fixed link head is polished flush to the bracelet and then laser welded and then polished again. So the head is not visible. Any tricks on how to remove this “hidden” screw? Thanks
@@IMakeWatches yes for sure screw. It’s a Girard-Perregaux steel bracelet. AP make them the same way. You can see the process here: th-cam.com/video/Bh1Xww576Yc/w-d-xo.htmlfeature=shared
@@marcn8750 Wow! That's super interesting! Thanks! Those hidden screws could be drilled out (just the part where the weld is) and then re-welded.Th problem is the laser or plasma welders they use for that are very expensive. I think there's a spot welder that may go for as little as $1000 but that's still a lot. In the end it may be worth it for restoring stainless steel cases with deep scratches if you do enough of that to justify the cost. Stainless steel welding is a topic that I'm very interested in. Thanks again for the comment and the link!
@@IMakeWatches interesting right? I’m trying to figure out how to drill out the screw. I want to try to preserve the outer link. Will I need a lathe? Any tricks to share?
Why not Quench in Oil ? Oil is popular because of its severity; that is, it transfers heat more quickly ! the temperature, viscosity and other chemical properties of oils can be adjusted to achieve different outcomes... Burned your hand lol yepp that flame gets hot.
@@IMakeWatches yepp its easier water is free flowing lol ... always love to see your find your way with things ...My father knew a lot about this he did it for 30 years with diffrent kinds of steels...
Why didn't you use a file to test the hardness! and a tip, make a cage of steel wire and put the screw in there. The total mass is too small for hardening as it is already cooled down before reaching the water. another Tip, watch some Clickspring Vid's :)
Thanks for these tips! Clickspring is great! I didn't know that he had videos about tempering and hardening steel! I will watch those for sure! I really appreciate the comment!
@@IMakeWatches I watched another video about metal hardening and they heated a knife then dropped it in water. It was so brittle, they could break it with their hands. Same knife, same heat, dropped in oil was hardened properly
@@isiah431 Thanks! Knife-making videos are a great resource because correct hardening is so important and there are more people making knives than screws. I'm definitely planning to do some comparisons. One thing about so hard that it's brittle, however, is that after that it's important to temper it again (meaning soften it by heating to a lower temperature and then letting it cool down slowly). Making something so hard that it shatters like glass is not the final step, it's only half way there. So if you're only doing a one step hardening oil may be best, whereas if you're doing two steps then ice water may be better. I think the problem for tempering is that the cool down needs to be very slow, and for that you need an over with a timer. In any case it's important to keep in mind that the full process involves more than just one heat and quench. It does seem logical that if you can only do one heat and quench then oil is probably better because it doesn't harden it quite as much because the quench is a bit slower.
I really like these technical videos. Please keep making them!
Thanks for letting me know! I'll keep doing them as I learn more!
If its mild steel that doesn't harden well. A steel with more carbon will better harden.
I think you absolutely can harden parts you make. Hacko is really pushing for excellence and he should inspire not discourage.
A good test is to file the part first and then compare how well the file works after hardening to get a sense of the change. Using those hand engravers before and after on the head of the screw would give you a feel for the effect of the hardening.
Hard to tell on video but you maybe needed to heat a little more.
Lovely video, thanks
Thanks so much for this comment! I will do another video with before and after testing / comparisons following your advice, including on small screws I plan to make myself, because that's the ultimate reason to do it. Make it out of annealed steel and then harden it and check that the hardening worked and also made it stronger and not too brittle. Very cool! I never imagined that making screws could be so much fun! (I would add some laughing emojis but I'm serious!) 😂😂😂
That's what I thought.
If properly hard the screw sould have marked the pliers jaws not the other way around.
As others pointed out, not all steels can be hardened. If this screw is made from silver steel/drill rod it should harden fine in a water quench.
When you look at the screw in the end, you can see that the threads were squished by the pliers. If the material was properly hard, I would not expect deformation, but rather breaking (or no change to the screw). I suspect you were a bit slow and the screw was already to cold, when it hit the water. Instead of picking a hot screw of a plate, I think it is a better idea to suspend the screw with a thin piece of steel wire. So you can keep a hold of the screw while heating it and immediately dunk it in water.
Thanks for this comment! I have seen the wire suspension method and will try that the next time!
In blacksmithing, we relate the tempering colors to how much hardness we're taking out. They call it running the colors. Everything has a specific color for the type of use. Blue is pretty far up the scale. 390 to 575. Graver would be faint yellow so still very hard. A drill would be taken to blue, so hold less of an edge but has better toughness. And then theirs science if you can afford it. :-) You can also get a set of Rockwell files which will bite when the hardness is below their value and slide off when above.
Well said I agree fully
Rockwell files sound very interesting! Thanks!
Something very few people know, if you use a surfectant (dish soap) you can get even mild steel to become harder, somewhere in the region of 40~45 Rockwell C.
Usually mild steel is around 30~35 RC
Salt in quench water is a myth, it does nothing to affect hardness. (which your probably aware of?)
Steam prevents water actually touching part, (as a blacksmith you know this) surfectants help, a lot.
Most people seem to use hardness testing files from Japan, around $90.00 a set
@@1crazypj (dish soap) i know this one very nice you know where you talk about its better than salad dressing lol
Nice episode! Great to see you try new stuff! I recommend getting a couple of Jeweller's Block/Fire bricks/Soldering blocks. They are inexpensive, lay them in a corner to make a great workspace. Small crucible with Boric acid to protect the part and then quench with saltwater. It would be easily done with small parts in a small workspace like the corner of the workshop using a barbecue torch. Thanks for sharing!
Thanks! I hadn't see your channel before! I watched your Rolex 1603 video and subscribed! Nice work! It looks like you're in China but I thought you guys couldn't get through the great firewall. Are you in Taiwan? Somewhere else? (Just curious. My wife is from Taiwan and I've worked in both Taiwan and mainland China - Shanghai, Beijing, Hong Kong.)
@@IMakeWatches Hi from the free port of Singapore! I guess best of both worlds here. See you around friend! Cheers!
Ah! Nice! You've got some great watch culture and enthusiasts there, from Wei Koh to the Tay's! Let me know if you're ever in Geneva!
You can get honeycomb soldering blocks. They stay cool when your doing this kind of work.
I will! Thanks!
Brass chips in a brass pan or on a sheet of brass for blueing. Chemicals from the brass impart themselves to the steel as it heats up
Chips Ahoy!
Not quite…. The brass chips don’t impart anything to the steel, chemical or otherwise. They do, however, evenly distribute the heat, and allow you to sneak up on the correct temperature for whatever color you’re trying to reach.
As for the colors of steel when heated, what he talks about in the video is correct: it’s all about creating a thin film of oxidation on the steel, the thickness of which determines the color of the light that is reflected from the part.
I enjoyed the video but I did want to say something about heat treating steel. the problem with talking about hardening tempering and annealing steel is that the temperatures and techniques change with the type of steel you use. for example W1 steel is supposed to be dipped in water to harden and o1 needs oil but many stainless steels need to be pressed between aluminum plates to be hardened (it is called plate quenching) . the same is true for all aspects of working with steel but as a general rule tool steel can be heated red hot and if a magnet doesn't stick to it you can drop it in vegetable oil (water can crack steel that isn't designed to be water hardened) to harden it or leave it in air to anneal it. heat bluing it will usually temper non stainless steels well enough for most tasks.
Thanks for your comment! I've seen the ovens with timers to get the correct cool down times for annealing, and it seems to me that to be able to do full heat treatment of steel you've got to have one of those, plus the various quick cooling solutions, boric acid to control oxidation when you don't want it, brass chips to distribute the heat, large and small torches, complete molecular knowledge of the alloy you're working with, and a formal education in metallurgy. And that's why it's so damn interesting! 😂😂😂
If I remember correctly the quench should occur at the critical temperature but not at much higher temps. With larger parts it is much easier to have a magnet wand to test for the loss of magnetism. But with tiny parts not so easy as the screw would stick to magnet every time you test. Plus the heat loss in the screw is so fast. An easier way to try this is with some hi carb steel rods where you can hold one end with vise grips and heat the other end with the torch. Then you can swipe it on a low power magnet to test for critical temp. Then see how long before magnetism returns. This will then give you an idea of the speed needed for quenching. I remember doing this with some small spring steel stock and it shattered like glass when I hit it.
Just hold it in the tweezers as you're heating it. While you're fumbling around, that small screw loses all its heat, before the quench.
Thanks! Yes, I'll hang it from a steel wire next time and go straight into oil!
That would be a bit rough on the tweezers
Pretty sure dropping screw first attempt allowed it to cool too much so didn't harden properly?
'Dead hard' it would have marked jaws of pliers.
As a few people mentioned, check hardness with an ordinary file, if part 'skates' over file, it's hard then can be tempered as needed.
I believe a very old method is to put screws in molten lead for low temper (softer) and bluing?
Screwdriver made a pretty good graver 😁
All great comments! Thanks! I really appreciate your comments and I hope that others are reading them as well!
The first thing you needed to know.was the material spec, without it, attempts to harden unknown materials is fruitless. Heat treatment requires certain methods, practices and most of all tools as well as a well ventilated place to work. None of which you have. Same thing with the lathe. Get a cross slide and some onsite help. IOW, find someone to show you the basics so you dont hurt yourself.
You don’t know what you’re talking about. I have ventilation. 😂😂😂 On your other points I agree completely!
Another useful video thanks.
Have you tried to remove a fixed link from a steel bracelet? The screw head that is used to secure the fixed link head is polished flush to the bracelet and then laser welded and then polished again. So the head is not visible.
Any tricks on how to remove this “hidden” screw?
Thanks
Wow! I didn't even know that there were hidden screws in steel bracelets! Are you sure it's not just pressed together? What brand is it?
@@IMakeWatches yes for sure screw.
It’s a Girard-Perregaux steel bracelet.
AP make them the same way. You can see the process here:
th-cam.com/video/Bh1Xww576Yc/w-d-xo.htmlfeature=shared
@@marcn8750 Wow! That's super interesting! Thanks! Those hidden screws could be drilled out (just the part where the weld is) and then re-welded.Th problem is the laser or plasma welders they use for that are very expensive. I think there's a spot welder that may go for as little as $1000 but that's still a lot. In the end it may be worth it for restoring stainless steel cases with deep scratches if you do enough of that to justify the cost. Stainless steel welding is a topic that I'm very interested in. Thanks again for the comment and the link!
@@IMakeWatches interesting right?
I’m trying to figure out how to drill out the screw.
I want to try to preserve the outer link.
Will I need a lathe? Any tricks to share?
Why not Quench in Oil ? Oil is popular because of its severity; that is, it transfers heat more quickly ! the temperature, viscosity and other chemical properties of oils can be adjusted to achieve different outcomes... Burned your hand lol yepp that flame gets hot.
I used all of my oil on my wetstones! 😂😂😂
No, seriously, I thought about it but ice water seemed easier for a quick test.
@@IMakeWatches yepp its easier water is free flowing lol ... always love to see your find your way with things ...My father knew a lot about this he did it for 30 years with diffrent kinds of steels...
Does oil or water make much difference with small parts? Perhaps salad dressing is the answer?
@@GentlemensWatchServices no salad dressing is for oil your movement...
Why didn't you use a file to test the hardness! and a tip, make a cage of steel wire and put the screw in there. The total mass is too small for hardening as it is already cooled down before reaching the water. another Tip, watch some Clickspring Vid's :)
Thanks for these tips! Clickspring is great! I didn't know that he had videos about tempering and hardening steel! I will watch those for sure! I really appreciate the comment!
needs to be oil not water. Water cools it too fast and makes the metal brittle
Thanks! I'm going to do this again soon with identical materials before and after. I will definitely take your advice!
@@IMakeWatches I watched another video about metal hardening and they heated a knife then dropped it in water. It was so brittle, they could break it with their hands. Same knife, same heat, dropped in oil was hardened properly
@@isiah431 Thanks! Knife-making videos are a great resource because correct hardening is so important and there are more people making knives than screws. I'm definitely planning to do some comparisons. One thing about so hard that it's brittle, however, is that after that it's important to temper it again (meaning soften it by heating to a lower temperature and then letting it cool down slowly). Making something so hard that it shatters like glass is not the final step, it's only half way there. So if you're only doing a one step hardening oil may be best, whereas if you're doing two steps then ice water may be better. I think the problem for tempering is that the cool down needs to be very slow, and for that you need an over with a timer. In any case it's important to keep in mind that the full process involves more than just one heat and quench. It does seem logical that if you can only do one heat and quench then oil is probably better because it doesn't harden it quite as much because the quench is a bit slower.
Love the technical and tool videos. As others mentioned oil is what you want to quench parts in.