I honestly don't see how anyone, affirming or not, could watch this and suggest that Matthew Vines is not a Christian. I mean...this is preaching, folks. This is as true a sermon as I've ever heard, and you can feel the love he has for God.
@jmparker78 You must define the word love. 1 John 5:3 says "For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. . .". God is so clear about what He thinks about homosexuality. God defines marriage as that between a male and a female. He sates in a few places in scripture that it is sinful and an abomination and that those who practice homosexuality will not inherit the Kingdom of God. Love must be defined on God's terms, not ours. When humans define love, it is congruent with the culture that we live in. That means love changes as time goes on. God's definition of love stays the same and its definition is grounded on the words of Scripture.
@@War-Daddywhat about other abomination that is written in the bible like eating pork having sex with woman when she's on her period , etc there is like 117 abdomition mention in the bible, if we are going to go by the rules must as well follows all the rules that is given in the bible , as God say if you break even one of my rules, the other ruled you follow will not justify you, if you one these lgbtq+ person to follow these rules you must as well follows all the other rules that is given to us, that's only fair then I have never hear people telling each other they does not love God or are going to hell if they eat pork, have sex with woman when she's on her period, wear certain clothes or if a woman have a short hair or if a person is divorce or if a person is remarriage where there are still alive It's kind of look ridiculous to me when a lot of evangelical churches are really anti gay when they are pretty chills with divorce and remarriage, one time I hear one person answer the question saying if a remarriage couple come to believe in Christ they will be 100%safe while saying homosexual couple if they believe in Christ need to separate the nerve jesus never even say about homosexual but indeed talk about divorce and remarriage, I never hear a church telling a remarriage couple they need to separate even if they might have kids or telling a divorce person to go back to their exes because they love them and they don't want them to continoulsly sinning And also hearing from both the sides, affirming and non affirming both A and B I came to the conclusion that from both the sides what I notice is homosexual meaning only talk about man not woman, like they use to say you cannot just interpreted the bible as you wish, so I see that there are no woman included here, but if God is really against same sex why not just say man and woman why just say only man so I came to the conclusion that it really had something to do with culture and context Well Romans 1 talk about woman but Paul also talk about woman with long hair is nature if we go by that that's mean woman who have short hair or man who have long hair are going against nature therefore defy God design and does not love him , well that does not make sense ether so it had a lot whole to do it culture and context as much as it does with man with long hair You cannot just judge anyone with a half truth that's not very Christian And also did you forget jesus is the friends of the sinner He dine with them he eat with them Did you forget, we Gentiles does not deserve jesus, God mercy the fact he is our saviour is not nature but unnature for God to do so because by nature we don't deserve it , we are the outcast, the Gentiles, Time will come when the sinners will praise the Lord for he is glory and good remember human all fall short in front of God eye we all are sinner so just praise the Lord for his over floating mercy and kindness and love other not hate them And one things I notice in the bible is jesus say preach the gospel to every creature, why not jesus just say preach the gospel to man woman young and adult I mean we cannot preach the gospel to plants and animals right they don't even have soul, their is a reason why he say to every creater not just man and woman young and adlut maybe jesus know the s existence of intersex non binary etc etc Just look at God creation, go to the path of truth for truth will lead you to God for he is real ,don't just turn blind eye to them and judge them so fast that's not very Christ Jesus say you will know it from their fruit so.. Don't judge based on who say it but base on their fruit, that 's what jesus taught us would not it be wrong for us to ignore his teaching and just go base on our own pride and felling
@@letsjustchilllachimolala2158 If you really don't understand the difference in your own question, please keep studying the Bible. SSA is about, what I want, about me, me, me which caused the fall in the beginning.
Thank you for that, Matthew. When I came out I ended up joining the "gay church" where I live here in Ottawa, Ontario, which turned out to be Anglican. It strikes me how much the creeds helped to heal my spirit after agonizing over my decision to finally accept who I am. I remember several Sunday services sitting in the choir in tears during the liturgy, specifically during the reading of the creeds and then the liturgy for communion. Because this is the core of our faith. I understand now why this is so foundational to my healing. And why my faith about loving God and loving others has not waivered, even while being disillusioned by what I see in so many radical churches today. I think the hardest teaching to embrace is that we must still love all of God's children even when they aren't so lovable. May God continue to use you in powerful ways, Matthew.
Thank you, Matthew, for such a powerful message. I was particularly touched by your putting first the messages in the creeds, including those in Paul's letters. I know I'm coming to this video 2 years after it was released; I have a lot of catching up to do on Reformation Project videos.
Very powerful testimony,Matthew.Your view of the harm and hurt caused by non affirming theologies really resonates with me and many.Even side B celibate gay Christians are shamed and stigmatised simply for being honest about being gay. As a side A gay Christian, being told that you must like a lonely sexless life of single hood and never wake up to the warm embrace of a companion or have someone there when I’m sick would be soul destroying and like most-I couldn’t flourish. The injustice and cruelty of such a theological position does not speak to me of the God I know. I agree with Matthew that it’s perfectly possible to have a high view of scripture and have an affirming view of committed,monogamous gay relationships.
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The presence of false teaching in the church is not a time for greater charity-its a time for greater clarity. It is not Christian charity that is being sought here, but rather a "christian cowardice" of the worst kind. One which risks offending God, for fear of offending unregenerate or falsely converted men and women. Wolves don't want to leave the church. They want to lead the church (right onto the table to be consumed by their rapacious desires). This presentation is so radical a redefinition of the gospel, Christianity, discipleship and of Christ, that it is a departure from them altogether.
Evangelical religion is a religion of fear. You can see it from the comments here. All the "watch out", "beware" , "you're deceived" , "you're going to hell" etc etc. Fear, fear and more fear! Is God really that bad that we gotta be scared of Him? Why is God so threatened by people thinking for themselves, researching and in good conscience coming to different conclusions?
Very good my brother keep it up. I was always taught that the possessive with Jesus it is Jesus' not Jesus's. It was burned into my brain in theology that "Jesus's" is not a word". Bless you.
there's no consistent usage. Jesus's love, Jesus' love, love of Jesus are all in use. as a rule of thumb if there are two sibilants in succession, you don't add a third. but pronunciation changes. Jesus = Jezus, Jesus' = Jezuz. e.g. James → James's is correct, but Moses → Moses's while technically correct is too hard to say so we can say Moses', or rephrase it to ~ of Moses.
This is complex. I'm straight/cis, I grew up in a United Church of Christ church, I still go, we are Open and Affirming. I asked if we should do that once, but I'm only twenty-eight now (I was like twenty.) and I couldn't lead things. I get overwhelmed. Some people I grew up with were mentally ill and medicated wrong or not at all and one of the things they focused on was traditional views of the Bible and homosexuality. Better medicated and years later, like when my church got a gay pastor, things got better. I also heard this outside of my church out and the world and when I figured out the passages in Leviticus (I know some from the New Testament are used.), it was scary, I did realize we don't usually look to the Old Testament, but I also in my middle school way wondered if this was about "the bad ones, like on Jerry Springer". I also saw how so many rules seemed to be about a specific time and place. It just seemed obvious and it's how I look at the Old Testament too. I was in a Christian private group on Facebook in April. I didn't want to say which one mostly out of fear of the people who ran it finding out I'm saying something and in case they wouldn't like what some people did. So many people got mean and vicious, like so many of the people on these pages do, unless they are marked as progressive (from my perspective). I felt nervous looking at it every day, but I stayed watching comments. I should have left earlier.
I saw a few people talking about the LGBT+ community and one person said something so ignorant about the LGBT+ community, that their rainbow had six stripes and God's had seven, and I snapped. I had to find it in me to say something. I said I read both uninclusive and inclusive interpretations and that no matter what things were getting hateful on the page. Someone reacted to my comments with what seemed like a supportive emoji and then a not supportive one. I knew they must be feeling complicated or very strongly. I made at least two comments and I also mentioned how no one chooses this. I don't remember if I said anything, but the person who started this page made it clear they felt the traditional view on what Jesus meant about rules about divorce were wrong and we could have nontraditional divorces. Many people agreed and even shared part of their stories and no one was supposed to question it, but so many people were being hypocritical and vicious when it came to the LGBT+ community. I'm traumatized. I can't ask someone to be super accepting. I'm too broken to ask. I do ask that everyone be kind, actually kind, and less traumatic.
I broke more because of that Facebook interaction and I'm still picking up the pieces. The person who reacted with emojis went after me really harshly. It was like a switch had been flipped and they were so wild with it. They listed out comments after comment, some were memes about someone (me) being "truthphobic", similar memes, and there are two things they said that stand out to me. They said when people struggled with the Bible (I guess about any part.) they said they would tell them that God hated it first and in response to me calling out how hateful things were getting they said something like, "Some of us want to go to Heaven." The way it was said was so unloving and like they wanted me to feel trauma. No one wanted to hear something like that about divorce on the page, some people had said so, and I see both arguments but I have my fears too. But it was the LGBT+ community that people got the most hateful about, when they knew how it felt for either themselves or others. The way I grew up, the way so much of any part of society treated being gay (we didn't talk about trans stuff too much, but the similar stuff happened when it did) as the thing you couldn't be above all things affects me. This facebook interaction drove everything back in me and on it's own was traumatizing.
I wanted to die, not kill myself, I hate suicide and love the people who did or want to, I've been scared by hearing it was a big sin, but just shut off and not deal with everything. I had never felt it this strong before. I spent days waking up, getting ready, and curling back into bed. I had never experienced depression like this. At one point, I said to this person that I would want God to either make us all accepting or change people. They said I was kind, I guess it surprised them, and they said sorry. I cried a little. I said thank you and explained I knew it must be weighing on them. Then, I spent a few days in a deep depression, conflicted about what I believed in, my hope for things, how I felt I wanted to die so strongly. I'm better, I pray, I look over progressive arguments, the Bible, I have hope again.
Oh, and I'm going to add that someone else on that Facebook post said they don't have to be sympathetic to gay people because it would be like giving in to kleptomaniacs. That was just sick, not enough to break me like the other one, but it was so mean, especially considering how divorce was talked about on that page. Also, this is already too long, but all the nonChristians who want to belittle progressive ones are not helping. They're weaponizing Christianity too. Some of this is them reacting out of trauma, but it can go too far.
@@MusicalRaichu The first two minutes alone he talks about dignity and the “horrible toll” non affirming teaching takes on LGBTQ people! What video were you watching? Peruse the comment section and you will see people making comments about how this made them feel better, were hurt, harmed, etc. This is in principle one of the core driving points of pro gay theology. Because non affirming of LGBTQ bible teaching is “damaging and hurtful”. If you read his book you, you will see in depth where he discusses how people feeling hurt is “bad fruit” and therefore that can’t be correct biblical doctrine.
@@The_Word_Is_The_Way sorry i didn't notice your reply before. yes, the terrible and indeed often horrific harm done by non-affirming theology is proof that it is not of God. that plus the fact that it's not even in the Bible to begin with. Jesus said his yoke is light, that he has come to give life to the full, that the truth would set people free. Non-affirming theology makes a mockery of these words. Jesus spoke against the religion of his day that put dogma and rules before compassion, that imposed heavy burdens, that shut the door of the kingdom in people's faces. This is precisely what non-affirming theology does. The church has failed to hear these warnings and many more.
It is so strange to me how someone who rightly states the danger of mixing truth and falsehood cannot see he is promoting the falsehood. Sir, you are in error and I pray that God would open your eyes to that error and the division you personally are responsible for. May God give all of us the grace to love with the truth and the courage to know and apply the truth which is clear in the Bible.
The bible makes it clear that God is holy. This holy God holds a perfect moral standard. Matthew 5:48 says "be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect." Absolute moral perfection is the standard that God demands from us and sadly, we have all fallen way short of that standard(Romans 3:23). Let's be honest in that we all sin such as lying, stealing, pornography, homosexallity, hating God, hating people etc. The penalty for sin/imperfection is the lake of fire and burning sulfur(Revelation 21:8). Thankfully there is good news! The bible says that God is rich in mercy and grace. That is why He sent His only Son to die on a cross to save us from our sin. You and I broke God's law but Jesus paid our fine. Then He rose from the dead, 3 days later, thus defeating death and proving He is the truth! "God demonstrates His own love for us in this: while we were still sinners, Christ died for us." Romans 5:8 "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life. But whoever rejects the Son will not see life for God's wrath remains on them." John 3:36
Jesus Christ is the only King, savior, and judge. He is absolutely holy, unique, and perfect in every way. In Matthew 3:17 God said "This is My Son whom I love. With Him I am well pleased." He is completely perfect and without sin. Christ never had one millisecond of a lazy attitude or a sinful lust. As 1 Peter 2:22 says "He committed no sin and no deceit was found in His mouth." The Son of God has created everything that exists. Colossians 1:16-17 "For in Him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together." Jesus Christ is the sovereign ruler over all creation. In Revelation 3:14 Jesus said *These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, *the ruler of God’s creation."* Last but not least, Jesus Christ is the only savior of mankind. He said "The Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost." Luke 19:10 "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life. But whoever rejects the Son will not see life for God's wrath remains on them." John 3:36 "For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life as a ransom for many." Mark 10:45
Enough said, all this talk, is talking into the air. The Holy Scripture says....... And that's that, end of discussion..... Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen. For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error. And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, Though they know God’s righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them. Romans 1:24-30, 32
So what about people like Matthew who have never worshipped an idol, never given up "the natural use of the female" for which they do not have the capacity, never "burned with appetite" but always acted with mutual respect and self-control, were never "filled with all manner of evil", and never approved of wrongdoing? Not one word in the text describes loving, faithful relationships based on secsual orientation. It's clearly about something else entirely. I suggest you research ancient Roman secsuality before you misuse a scripture to condemn people it doesn't even describe.
@@MusicalRaichu Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. And we impart this in words not taught by HUMAN WISDOM but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual. The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he is NOT able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. “For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ. 1 Corinthians 2:12-16
@@Jose_Jalapeno Woah, that really affirms gay marriage and lifelong celibacy that comes from faith (not fear) as the only true solutions to homosexuality. God will judge the heart and knows all intent to serve Him, man judges appearance only and know far less about the motive. But Jesus taught us how to judge. You are blind to the truth, even as the good tree remains in the power of Christ, and bears fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5; John 15).
You can, as evidenced by how people make texts like "man ... marries a woman" say "man must only ever marry a woman or else it's a mortal sin". But Matthew is arguing that you don't do things like that.
A true Christian cannot ever affirm the homosexual lifestyle and stay true to the Word of God. Ever. Do you realize how many scriptural roadblocks you have to go over, around, under and through to get where you are. As the Word of God declares, They twist (wrest) the scriptures to their own destruction."
On the contrary, much of the church is twisting the scriptures to condemn people who are doing nothing to hurt anyone but only want to love and be loved in the only way God has granted them. As a result, they are losing relevance in a world that is learning how to better love their neighbour, bringing God and his word and his church into disrepute in the world.
@@MusicalRaichu The Bible is the most dangerous book on the planet. Anyone can twist the scriptures to validate any argument they have. There have been many things done in the name of God that the true and living God had nothing to do with. Many causes began good but ended badly. That's why the WHOLE counsel of God is needed. But the end of Matthews message was that he wants others to accept that perverse lifestyle. To accept the homosexual lifestyle. At least right now, most in this country, saved or lost, know that homosexuality is not good. The Bible says that righteousness exalts a nation, but sin is a reproach to any people. Homosexuality is a deviation from God's Divine order. It is not the way of Holiness. And Holiness is always God's way. I know this, that soon enough , we all will stand before our creator to give account of our lives and of those things done in our bodies, whether they be good, or whether they be bad.
@@baroquenspirit5395 I agree that holiness is important and that lack of it will damage society. But much of the church has gotten this issue backwards, leading it away from holiness. Both I and Matthew independently investigated what the Bible has to say on this issue and I am highly confident that Matthew is correct. I came to exactly the same conclusion through my own independent study of God's word. There is nothing in the Bible from which one could conclude that God condemns loving relationships between two men or two women. The incalculable harm wrought let alone the unknown death toll from this belief that crept into our churches is proof enough that it's so wrong it is unholy. The idea of "God's divine order" was invented in the 80s to justify the church's continued discrimination. I was around when it happened. I never heard it before then. I was even in synod the year my church was bringing it in. What happened was that around the middle of last century, "male-bedders", a word of unknown meaning in 1 Cor 6.9, was mistranslated by accident in the original RSV. The translators realized their error and corrected it in the rRSV, but the mistake was copied into other more popular Bible translations. Soon a whole generation grew up thinking homasecsualty was inherently sinful. But soon research showed that there was nothing wrong with it. It's a harmless natural variation, posed no risk to society, and discrimination was hurtful. As a result, society repented from their previous attitude. But the church, now convinced that the Bible allegedly condemned it and unaware that it was a mistranslation, had to find some way to justify their stance. Thus arguments such as "God's divine order", "Biblical definition or marriage", "God's plan for mankind" were invented. But if you read the Bible carefully word for word, noting what it actually says and importantly what it doesn't say, you'll see that none of these ideas are present there. People have read into the text things that it doesn't say. As a result of the damage done to innocent people by this idea - lives ruined, lives lost, families broken, faith lost, the cause of the gospel damaged, the church and its Lord brought into disrepute in the world - people like Matthew have looked into the matter and have discovered that the Bible teaches no such thing. On the contrary, God said "it's not good for man to be alone". Work through Genesis 2 and you'll see it supports them.
@@MusicalRaichu God's Divine order began in Genesis not the eighties. If the Lord thought that another man would have been a better help than a woman seems He would have made another man. How would procreation have taken place? Two men cannot reproduce. They can only recruit. If two men or two women together desire a family they have to get the children from heterosexual couples. At the moment I'm not sure why I'm even explaining this obvious fact. Some years ago I was entertaining certain besetting sins as the scripture calls them. One night the overwhelming thought blazed through my mind and in my soul. It wasn't necessarily an audible voice, but it was enough to get my attention. He said, "You wouldn't like it here in heaven. My home is to Holy and pure for you. You'd be better off in that other place." I got the message loud and clear. It is of the utmost importance what we do with our bodies. It is an outward sign of what's going on inside. Usually. As a true child of God our body is to be the temple of the HOLY Spirit. Many times I've done things, said things, thought things and had to ask myself, "Would Jesus Christ have done that, said that or thought that. 99.999% of the time the answer, Absolutely not.
@@baroquenspirit5395 The so-called divine order as you perceive it never began at all. it's an idea that was invented in the 80s. read older books and bible commentaries and see for yourself. i'm not trying to encourage anyone to sin. exactly the opposite, i'm trying to prevent people from sinning by hurting innocent people who are doing nothing to hurt anyone but only want to love and be loved in the only way God has granted them as part of the rich diversity he has made in one tiny blue dot in his creation. Reproduction is a furphy. Recruitment is just slander. Read Genesis 2 and identify the reasons marriage happens listed there. NB reproduction is not one of them. Then see how it would apply to a man who is incapable of having that kind of relationship with a woman but only another man. There is no contradiction to the text whatsoever. Genesis 2 ultimately supports same-secs relationships. I explained two things, how the belief you have came about, and why it's sinful. I don't want you to go against your conscience or just take my word for it. I'm merely explaining how it happened that you ended up thinking what you do. Ultimately you need to investigate this matter more deeply and work it out for yourself. Until you do, I can only urge you not to promote a doctrine that has harmed thousands possibly millions of people. Good luck with that, and God's blessings on your journey with him.
I honestly don't see how anyone, affirming or not, could watch this and suggest that Matthew Vines is not a Christian. I mean...this is preaching, folks. This is as true a sermon as I've ever heard, and you can feel the love he has for God.
If he really loves God, he would obey, buy he isn't he is a false teacher
@jmparker78 You must define the word love. 1 John 5:3 says "For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. . .". God is so clear about what He thinks about homosexuality. God defines marriage as that between a male and a female. He sates in a few places in scripture that it is sinful and an abomination and that those who practice homosexuality will not inherit the Kingdom of God. Love must be defined on God's terms, not ours. When humans define love, it is congruent with the culture that we live in. That means love changes as time goes on. God's definition of love stays the same and its definition is grounded on the words of Scripture.
@@War-Daddywhat about other abomination that is written in the bible like eating pork having sex with woman when she's on her period , etc there is like 117 abdomition mention in the bible, if we are going to go by the rules must as well follows all the rules that is given in the bible , as God say if you break even one of my rules, the other ruled you follow will not justify you, if you one these lgbtq+ person to follow these rules you must as well follows all the other rules that is given to us, that's only fair then
I have never hear people telling each other they does not love God or are going to hell if they eat pork, have sex with woman when she's on her period, wear certain clothes or if a woman have a short hair or if a person is divorce or if a person is remarriage where there are still alive
It's kind of look ridiculous to me when a lot of evangelical churches are really anti gay when they are pretty chills with divorce and remarriage, one time I hear one person answer the question saying if a remarriage couple come to believe in Christ they will be 100%safe while saying homosexual couple if they believe in Christ need to separate the nerve jesus never even say about homosexual but indeed talk about divorce and remarriage, I never hear a church telling a remarriage couple they need to separate even if they might have kids or telling a divorce person to go back to their exes because they love them and they don't want them to continoulsly sinning
And also hearing from both the sides, affirming and non affirming both A and B I came to the conclusion that from both the sides what I notice is homosexual meaning only talk about man not woman, like they use to say you cannot just interpreted the bible as you wish, so I see that there are no woman included here, but if God is really against same sex why not just say man and woman why just say only man so I came to the conclusion that it really had something to do with culture and context
Well Romans 1 talk about woman but Paul also talk about woman with long hair is nature if we go by that that's mean woman who have short hair or man who have long hair are going against nature therefore defy God design and does not love him , well that does not make sense ether so it had a lot whole to do it culture and context as much as it does with man with long hair
You cannot just judge anyone with a half truth that's not very Christian
And also did you forget jesus is the friends of the sinner
He dine with them he eat with them
Did you forget, we Gentiles does not deserve jesus, God mercy the fact he is our saviour is not nature but unnature for God to do so because by nature we don't deserve it , we are the outcast, the Gentiles,
Time will come when the sinners will praise the Lord for he is glory and good remember human all fall short in front of God eye we all are sinner so just praise the Lord for his over floating mercy and kindness and love other not hate them
And one things I notice in the bible is jesus say preach the gospel to every creature, why not jesus just say preach the gospel to man woman young and adult I mean we cannot preach the gospel to plants and animals right they don't even have soul, their is a reason why he say to every creater not just man and woman young and adlut maybe jesus know the s existence of intersex non binary etc etc
Just look at God creation, go to the path of truth for truth will lead you to God for he is real ,don't just turn blind eye to them and judge them so fast that's not very Christ
Jesus say you will know it from their fruit so.. Don't judge based on who say it but base on their fruit, that 's what jesus taught us would not it be wrong for us to ignore his teaching and just go base on our own pride and felling
@@letsjustchilllachimolala2158
If you really don't understand the difference in your own question, please keep studying the Bible.
SSA is about, what I want, about me, me, me which caused the fall in the beginning.
Thank you for that, Matthew. When I came out I ended up joining the "gay church" where I live here in Ottawa, Ontario, which turned out to be Anglican. It strikes me how much the creeds helped to heal my spirit after agonizing over my decision to finally accept who I am. I remember several Sunday services sitting in the choir in tears during the liturgy, specifically during the reading of the creeds and then the liturgy for communion. Because this is the core of our faith.
I understand now why this is so foundational to my healing. And why my faith about loving God and loving others has not waivered, even while being disillusioned by what I see in so many radical churches today. I think the hardest teaching to embrace is that we must still love all of God's children even when they aren't so lovable.
May God continue to use you in powerful ways, Matthew.
Thank you so much for this. It is exactly what my soul needs in this season of my life and it has refreshed my battered spirit. 💜
Thank you, Matthew, for such a powerful message. I was particularly touched by your putting first the messages in the creeds, including those in Paul's letters. I know I'm coming to this video 2 years after it was released; I have a lot of catching up to do on Reformation Project videos.
Very powerful testimony,Matthew.Your view of the harm and hurt caused by non affirming theologies really resonates with me and many.Even side B celibate gay Christians are shamed and stigmatised simply for being honest about being gay.
As a side A gay Christian, being told that you must like a lonely sexless life of single hood and never wake up to the warm embrace of a companion or have someone there when I’m sick would be soul destroying and like most-I couldn’t flourish.
The injustice and cruelty of such a theological position does not speak to me of the God I know.
I agree with Matthew that it’s perfectly possible to have a high view of scripture and have an affirming view of committed,monogamous gay relationships.
Thank you for this Pastor Vines
Thank you for your insights! They are helping me shape my thinking!
Yay!!!! New Reformation Project!
Can’t wait to hear!
Stay Blessed Matthew 🥰👏💯
Thankyou for a great message
Fantastic new material from you! Hoping to see content from this years seminars soon. God Bless you all
What a beautiful message but so challenging.
Masterful!
Thank you
Amen 🌈🙏😇
ABOMINATIONS... The Rainbow 🌈 & Praying Hands 🙏🏼 are both TRUE 'YWHW' Symbols of Christianity... Christianity is a Non-Democracy, rather a "THEOCRACY" where GOD has the Ultimate Power ✝️ 🌈 🙏🏼🤲🏽 🕊🔥 🛐
The presence of false teaching in the church is not a time for greater charity-its a time for greater clarity.
It is not Christian charity that is being sought here, but rather a "christian cowardice" of the worst kind. One which risks offending God, for fear of offending unregenerate or falsely converted men and women.
Wolves don't want to leave the church. They want to lead the church (right onto the table to be consumed by their rapacious desires). This presentation is so radical a redefinition of the gospel, Christianity, discipleship and of Christ, that it is a departure from them altogether.
Well said
"where they have always belonged!"
That would mean you must repent and turn from Your sin just like the rest of us that were adulterers or druggies
Evangelical religion is a religion of fear. You can see it from the comments here. All the "watch out", "beware" , "you're deceived" , "you're going to hell" etc etc. Fear, fear and more fear! Is God really that bad that we gotta be scared of Him? Why is God so threatened by people thinking for themselves, researching and in good conscience coming to different conclusions?
You don't realize how holy God He
hates sin because it's contrary to His
nature and knows how harmful it is
in our lives
Very good my brother keep it up. I was always taught that the possessive with Jesus it is Jesus' not Jesus's. It was burned into my brain in theology that "Jesus's" is not a word". Bless you.
there's no consistent usage. Jesus's love, Jesus' love, love of Jesus are all in use.
as a rule of thumb if there are two sibilants in succession, you don't add a third. but pronunciation changes. Jesus = Jezus, Jesus' = Jezuz.
e.g. James → James's is correct, but Moses → Moses's while technically correct is too hard to say so we can say Moses', or rephrase it to ~ of Moses.
What The Bible says in its original languages can vary greatly from the English.
This is complex. I'm straight/cis, I grew up in a United Church of Christ church, I still go, we are Open and Affirming. I asked if we should do that once, but I'm only twenty-eight now (I was like twenty.) and I couldn't lead things. I get overwhelmed. Some people I grew up with were mentally ill and medicated wrong or not at all and one of the things they focused on was traditional views of the Bible and homosexuality. Better medicated and years later, like when my church got a gay pastor, things got better.
I also heard this outside of my church out and the world and when I figured out the passages in Leviticus (I know some from the New Testament are used.), it was scary, I did realize we don't usually look to the Old Testament, but I also in my middle school way wondered if this was about "the bad ones, like on Jerry Springer". I also saw how so many rules seemed to be about a specific time and place. It just seemed obvious and it's how I look at the Old Testament too.
I was in a Christian private group on Facebook in April. I didn't want to say which one mostly out of fear of the people who ran it finding out I'm saying something and in case they wouldn't like what some people did. So many people got mean and vicious, like so many of the people on these pages do, unless they are marked as progressive (from my perspective). I felt nervous looking at it every day, but I stayed watching comments. I should have left earlier.
I saw a few people talking about the LGBT+ community and one person said something so ignorant about the LGBT+ community, that their rainbow had six stripes and God's had seven, and I snapped. I had to find it in me to say something. I said I read both uninclusive and inclusive interpretations and that no matter what things were getting hateful on the page. Someone reacted to my comments with what seemed like a supportive emoji and then a not supportive one. I knew they must be feeling complicated or very strongly.
I made at least two comments and I also mentioned how no one chooses this. I don't remember if I said anything, but the person who started this page made it clear they felt the traditional view on what Jesus meant about rules about divorce were wrong and we could have nontraditional divorces. Many people agreed and even shared part of their stories and no one was supposed to question it, but so many people were being hypocritical and vicious when it came to the LGBT+ community. I'm traumatized. I can't ask someone to be super accepting. I'm too broken to ask. I do ask that everyone be kind, actually kind, and less traumatic.
I broke more because of that Facebook interaction and I'm still picking up the pieces. The person who reacted with emojis went after me really harshly. It was like a switch had been flipped and they were so wild with it. They listed out comments after comment, some were memes about someone (me) being "truthphobic", similar memes, and there are two things they said that stand out to me.
They said when people struggled with the Bible (I guess about any part.) they said they would tell them that God hated it first and in response to me calling out how hateful things were getting they said something like, "Some of us want to go to Heaven." The way it was said was so unloving and like they wanted me to feel trauma. No one wanted to hear something like that about divorce on the page, some people had said so, and I see both arguments but I have my fears too. But it was the LGBT+ community that people got the most hateful about, when they knew how it felt for either themselves or others.
The way I grew up, the way so much of any part of society treated being gay (we didn't talk about trans stuff too much, but the similar stuff happened when it did) as the thing you couldn't be above all things affects me. This facebook interaction drove everything back in me and on it's own was traumatizing.
I wanted to die, not kill myself, I hate suicide and love the people who did or want to, I've been scared by hearing it was a big sin, but just shut off and not deal with everything. I had never felt it this strong before. I spent days waking up, getting ready, and curling back into bed. I had never experienced depression like this. At one point, I said to this person that I would want God to either make us all accepting or change people.
They said I was kind, I guess it surprised them, and they said sorry. I cried a little. I said thank you and explained I knew it must be weighing on them. Then, I spent a few days in a deep depression, conflicted about what I believed in, my hope for things, how I felt I wanted to die so strongly. I'm better, I pray, I look over progressive arguments, the Bible, I have hope again.
Oh, and I'm going to add that someone else on that Facebook post said they don't have to be sympathetic to gay people because it would be like giving in to kleptomaniacs. That was just sick, not enough to break me like the other one, but it was so mean, especially considering how divorce was talked about on that page.
Also, this is already too long, but all the nonChristians who want to belittle progressive ones are not helping. They're weaponizing Christianity too. Some of this is them reacting out of trauma, but it can go too far.
So biblical truth is based on what makes you feel good, self validated, happy, etc?
Could you please indicate the point in the video where he makes such a claim? I must have missed it because I didn't get that impression.
@@MusicalRaichu The first two minutes alone he talks about dignity and the “horrible toll” non affirming teaching takes on LGBTQ people!
What video were you watching?
Peruse the comment section and you will see people making comments about how this made them feel better, were hurt, harmed, etc.
This is in principle one of the core driving points of pro gay theology.
Because non affirming of LGBTQ bible teaching is “damaging and hurtful”.
If you read his book you, you will see in depth where he discusses how people feeling hurt is “bad fruit” and therefore that can’t be correct biblical doctrine.
@@The_Word_Is_The_Way sorry i didn't notice your reply before.
yes, the terrible and indeed often horrific harm done by non-affirming theology is proof that it is not of God. that plus the fact that it's not even in the Bible to begin with.
Jesus said his yoke is light, that he has come to give life to the full, that the truth would set people free. Non-affirming theology makes a mockery of these words.
Jesus spoke against the religion of his day that put dogma and rules before compassion, that imposed heavy burdens, that shut the door of the kingdom in people's faces. This is precisely what non-affirming theology does. The church has failed to hear these warnings and many more.
@@MusicalRaichu You basically confirmed this teaching is argumentum ad passiones.
Thank you:
as an aroace and a christian. i like the message and the need for inclusion
of lgbtqia in the church
It is so strange to me how someone who rightly states the danger of mixing truth and falsehood cannot see he is promoting the falsehood. Sir, you are in error and I pray that God would open your eyes to that error and the division you personally are responsible for. May God give all of us the grace to love with the truth and the courage to know and apply the truth which is clear in the Bible.
I agree we need more compassion for gays but not ok it thats wrong also if its nota sin why are you trying to convert others to your viewpoint ?
The bible makes it clear that God is holy. This holy God holds a perfect moral standard. Matthew 5:48 says "be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect." Absolute moral perfection is the standard that God demands from us and sadly, we have all fallen way short of that standard(Romans 3:23). Let's be honest in that we all sin such as lying, stealing, pornography, homosexallity, hating God, hating people etc. The penalty for sin/imperfection is the lake of fire and burning sulfur(Revelation 21:8).
Thankfully there is good news! The bible says that God is rich in mercy and grace. That is why He sent His only Son to die on a cross to save us from our sin. You and I broke God's law but Jesus paid our fine. Then He rose from the dead, 3 days later, thus defeating death and proving He is the truth!
"God demonstrates His own love for us in this: while we were still sinners, Christ died for us." Romans 5:8
"Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life. But whoever rejects the Son will not see life for God's wrath remains on them." John 3:36
Jesus Christ is the only King, savior, and judge. He is absolutely holy, unique, and perfect in every way. In Matthew 3:17 God said "This is My Son whom I love. With Him I am well pleased." He is completely perfect and without sin. Christ never had one millisecond of a lazy attitude or a sinful lust. As 1 Peter 2:22 says "He committed no sin and no deceit was found in His mouth."
The Son of God has created everything that exists. Colossians 1:16-17 "For in Him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together." Jesus Christ is the sovereign ruler over all creation. In Revelation 3:14 Jesus said *These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, *the ruler of God’s creation."*
Last but not least, Jesus Christ is the only savior of mankind. He said "The Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost." Luke 19:10
"Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life. But whoever rejects the Son will not see life for God's wrath remains on them." John 3:36
"For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life as a ransom for many." Mark 10:45
Enough said, all this talk, is talking into the air. The Holy Scripture says.......
And that's that, end of discussion.....
Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen. For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error. And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, Though they know God’s righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.
Romans 1:24-30, 32
So what about people like Matthew who have never worshipped an idol, never given up "the natural use of the female" for which they do not have the capacity, never "burned with appetite" but always acted with mutual respect and self-control, were never "filled with all manner of evil", and never approved of wrongdoing?
Not one word in the text describes loving, faithful relationships based on secsual orientation. It's clearly about something else entirely. I suggest you research ancient Roman secsuality before you misuse a scripture to condemn people it doesn't even describe.
@@MusicalRaichu
Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. And we impart this in words not taught by HUMAN WISDOM but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual. The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he is NOT able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. “For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.
1 Corinthians 2:12-16
@@Jose_Jalapeno Thank you, I'm glad that you finally agree with me.
@@Jose_Jalapeno Woah, that really affirms gay marriage and lifelong celibacy that comes from faith (not fear) as the only true solutions to homosexuality. God will judge the heart and knows all intent to serve Him, man judges appearance only and know far less about the motive. But Jesus taught us how to judge. You are blind to the truth, even as the good tree remains in the power of Christ, and bears fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5; John 15).
False teacher.
Seems like you can make the bible say what ever you want it to say.
You can, as evidenced by how people make texts like "man ... marries a woman" say "man must only ever marry a woman or else it's a mortal sin".
But Matthew is arguing that you don't do things like that.
A true Christian cannot ever affirm the homosexual lifestyle and stay true to the Word of God. Ever. Do you realize how many scriptural roadblocks you have to go over, around, under and through to get where you are. As the Word of God declares, They twist (wrest) the scriptures to their own destruction."
On the contrary, much of the church is twisting the scriptures to condemn people who are doing nothing to hurt anyone but only want to love and be loved in the only way God has granted them. As a result, they are losing relevance in a world that is learning how to better love their neighbour, bringing God and his word and his church into disrepute in the world.
@@MusicalRaichu The Bible is the most dangerous book on the planet. Anyone can twist the scriptures to validate any argument they have. There have been many things done in the name of God that the true and living God had nothing to do with. Many causes began good but ended badly. That's why the WHOLE counsel of God is needed. But the end of Matthews message was that he wants others to accept that perverse lifestyle. To accept the homosexual lifestyle. At least right now, most in this country, saved or lost, know that homosexuality is not good. The Bible says that righteousness exalts a nation, but sin is a reproach to any people. Homosexuality is a deviation from God's Divine order. It is not the way of Holiness. And Holiness is always God's way. I know this, that soon enough , we all will stand before our creator to give account of our lives and of those things done in our bodies, whether they be good, or whether they be bad.
@@baroquenspirit5395 I agree that holiness is important and that lack of it will damage society. But much of the church has gotten this issue backwards, leading it away from holiness.
Both I and Matthew independently investigated what the Bible has to say on this issue and I am highly confident that Matthew is correct. I came to exactly the same conclusion through my own independent study of God's word. There is nothing in the Bible from which one could conclude that God condemns loving relationships between two men or two women.
The incalculable harm wrought let alone the unknown death toll from this belief that crept into our churches is proof enough that it's so wrong it is unholy. The idea of "God's divine order" was invented in the 80s to justify the church's continued discrimination. I was around when it happened. I never heard it before then. I was even in synod the year my church was bringing it in.
What happened was that around the middle of last century, "male-bedders", a word of unknown meaning in 1 Cor 6.9, was mistranslated by accident in the original RSV. The translators realized their error and corrected it in the rRSV, but the mistake was copied into other more popular Bible translations. Soon a whole generation grew up thinking homasecsualty was inherently sinful.
But soon research showed that there was nothing wrong with it. It's a harmless natural variation, posed no risk to society, and discrimination was hurtful. As a result, society repented from their previous attitude. But the church, now convinced that the Bible allegedly condemned it and unaware that it was a mistranslation, had to find some way to justify their stance.
Thus arguments such as "God's divine order", "Biblical definition or marriage", "God's plan for mankind" were invented. But if you read the Bible carefully word for word, noting what it actually says and importantly what it doesn't say, you'll see that none of these ideas are present there. People have read into the text things that it doesn't say.
As a result of the damage done to innocent people by this idea - lives ruined, lives lost, families broken, faith lost, the cause of the gospel damaged, the church and its Lord brought into disrepute in the world - people like Matthew have looked into the matter and have discovered that the Bible teaches no such thing. On the contrary, God said "it's not good for man to be alone". Work through Genesis 2 and you'll see it supports them.
@@MusicalRaichu God's Divine order began in Genesis not the eighties. If the Lord thought that another man would have been a better help than a woman seems He would have made another man. How would procreation have taken place? Two men cannot reproduce. They can only recruit. If two men or two women together desire a family they have to get the children from heterosexual couples. At the moment I'm not sure why I'm even explaining this obvious fact. Some years ago I was entertaining certain besetting sins as the scripture calls them. One night the overwhelming thought blazed through my mind and in my soul. It wasn't necessarily an audible voice, but it was enough to get my attention. He said, "You wouldn't like it here in heaven. My home is to Holy and pure for you. You'd be better off in that other place." I got the message loud and clear. It is of the utmost importance what we do with our bodies. It is an outward sign of what's going on inside. Usually. As a true child of God our body is to be the temple of the HOLY Spirit. Many times I've done things, said things, thought things and had to ask myself, "Would Jesus Christ have done that, said that or thought that. 99.999% of the time the answer, Absolutely not.
@@baroquenspirit5395 The so-called divine order as you perceive it never began at all. it's an idea that was invented in the 80s. read older books and bible commentaries and see for yourself.
i'm not trying to encourage anyone to sin. exactly the opposite, i'm trying to prevent people from sinning by hurting innocent people who are doing nothing to hurt anyone but only want to love and be loved in the only way God has granted them as part of the rich diversity he has made in one tiny blue dot in his creation.
Reproduction is a furphy. Recruitment is just slander. Read Genesis 2 and identify the reasons marriage happens listed there. NB reproduction is not one of them. Then see how it would apply to a man who is incapable of having that kind of relationship with a woman but only another man. There is no contradiction to the text whatsoever. Genesis 2 ultimately supports same-secs relationships.
I explained two things, how the belief you have came about, and why it's sinful. I don't want you to go against your conscience or just take my word for it. I'm merely explaining how it happened that you ended up thinking what you do. Ultimately you need to investigate this matter more deeply and work it out for yourself. Until you do, I can only urge you not to promote a doctrine that has harmed thousands possibly millions of people.
Good luck with that, and God's blessings on your journey with him.