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This is a hot mess. And it's not even a minute long.

I'm sorry, that example did not prove a good reason to dismiss theonomy. As the church, we preach the Gospel and teach the nations to observe all comandments from Christ. When rulers submit themselves to Christ's Lordship, they (the rulers) establish and ENFORCE righteous laws, like the police ENFORCING us to not pass the speed limit.

What is the full episode called?

Christians have gone from the church of love, charity and good works to the church hate, intolerance and division-in the eyes of many Americans-in the 30 or so years since aligning themselves with the Republican Party-and essentially becoming a political organization, rather than a church preaching the good news of the Gospel. It’s why young people especially are leaving the church in droves. If by their fruits you shall know them, look at the Trump supporting often clueless and foaming at the mouth MAGA Christians applauding all the hate, bigotry and racism this man preaches from his rally pulpit. If Christianity wants to survive as a church in any meaningful way, the question should be, can Christians afford not to start voting Democratic. Or better yet, afford to not stop being involved in politics. It’s what killing the church and Christianity.

Many nice thoughts. I've been doing church planting for more than 20 years among Adibasis in India. Yes, its still going on and we've passed 2000 baptisms by now.Not following any other"s system other than what we felt led to by God. what I did from the beginning was start a church and train a group of others who each started their own church and then make their own disciples. Most of our conversions comes from healing and deliveranse. Some conversions are through "good works" like helping the sick taking them to hospitals etc.

As a Christian you can vote Democrat with a clear conscience. Democrats are pro-choice (and not pro-abortion) just like God because God does not force morality on people but instead honors people's choices (independent of whether the choices are right or wrong). On the other hand, many can't see how Christians can be Republicans who support a convicted sexual predator, lover of strife and discord, proclaimed adulterer, reviler, and pathological liar who is totally opposite of Christ whom they profess to serve. Some say that it's OK to follow an evil leader because God can use an evil leader for His own purposes. But doesn't the Old Testament show that after God uses the evil leader he punishes and even destroys the evil leader and followers? The bible does say who you should vote for. You should vote for someone who will give you a "tranquil and quiet life full of godliness and dignity". (1Tim 2:1-2) Who can that be? It is someone who is the most Christ-like. Why? Because integrity and character matters (by their fruits you shall know them) and policies don't matter as much because many candidates once elected don't follow their party, platform, and promised policies. Integrity and character are time-tested indicators of how leaders will successfully react to and handle future crises.

There was a lot here, and much of it was really good. There's definitely an issue with a lot of identity language and this Oppression Olympics where people feel the need to gather points of the oppression hierarchy. One area where you might have made an important error is when you discussed schools bringing in the identity language. You seemed to blame teachers (6:21 and 55:42 - 57:32). But, have you considered the effect of ADA and Section 504 rules. Since ADHD, autism, etc are medical diagnoses legally classified as disabilities, schools are legally required to provide accommodations. Expecting a teacher to tell a student they should better manage their time, not be late, and overcome their struggles with these issues is legally like expecting a teacher to tell a kid in a wheelchair to overcome their disability and take the stairs like everybody else. Now, you might think that's an apples-to-oranges comparison, but legally it's the same thing. Both being in a wheelchair and being diagnosed with autism are considered disabilities and given legal protections. For example, if a student's IEP or 504 plan says the student has extra time on assignments as an accommodation, the teacher must allow the student extra time. For a teacher to tell the student that they need to better manage their time could lead to a lawsuit for a violation of the student's rights. You also said that masking proves these disorders aren't real (29:00) because if you can hide the symptoms of a disorder then you don't really have a disorder. But would you also tell someone diagnosed with depression that if they are able to act happy around other people they must not really be depressed? Would you tell an introverted professional that if they're able to be outgoing when meeting a new client, they must not really be an introvert? Your entire discussion of "brain plasticity" (1:18:00) was just pop psychology. Do you think IQ, for example, is an area where "you can really change your brain" substantially? Please talk to a cognitive psychologist or cognitive scientist here. You spent a lot of time (1:05:00) critiquing TikTokers, but that's a poor starting point for understanding anything other than those TikTokers. If you're trying to say what you found on TikTok represents anything serious, you've lost from the start. For example, the Journal of Autism and Developmental Disorders had an article, "The Reach and Accuracy of Information on Autism on TikTok," that reported only 27% of TikTok videos about autism had medically accurate information. So, the odds are anything you are seeing on TikTok claiming to be about autism is information the medical establishment would consider either inaccurate or non-generalizable. For you to highlight some young people on TikTok saying this or that about neurodivergence is like an atheist going on TikTok and finding a bunch of Christians saying nonsense and then using those TikToks to claim Christian theology is a mess. Finally, the discussion about ADHD getting "better with age" (1:25:32) needs clarification. Yes people often don't need medications as they get older, but that doesn't mean ADHD is getting better. Sometimes people are just learning coping strategies. Sometimes it's situational changes. The attention needs of a 14-year old sitting in a chair that's attached to a desk, in a classroom, staring at a teacher for 40 minutes, are vastly different than the attention needs of a graphic designer working freelance who can control their own schedule. Overall, the discussion was important and there should be legitimate concerns about identity politics, the medicalization of everything, etc. The topic is important and I was happy to hear it being discussed.

I'm sorely disappointed with your guys treatment of not only the theonomic view, but also the shallow exegetical flyover of the relevant passages. In reading some of your responses to other comments in this thread, i was struck by just how eisegetical your justification for many points are. I was really hoping for more - you guys should invite a theonomist on to debate the exegetical specifics I think that'd be immensely helpful and revealing. Nevertheless, keep studying and sharing the gospel, teaching the nations to do ALL that Christ has commanded us. (This means God's law too).

Thank you for this, guys. The tables of the law seem to be clearly separated by Paul's reasoning here: Romans 13:10 NKJV Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. We notice that he did *not* say love does no harm to God or man. He is here exclusively concerned with one human being's effect on other human beings, and sums up the law in so doing.

Great except for the mild resemblance to Adolf Hitler!

Theonomist here, I appreciate Bahnsens's work along with other modern theonomists such as Gentry and James White/ the guys at Apologia. I just want to thank you for having a great discussion about theonomy and for engaging with the real issues in a clear and civil manner. We need more discussions like these rather than lobbing firey arrows at eachother. Appreciate you brothers.

Government actually started in the garden when Adam was given dominion over his wife and creation. Christ the new Adam has an eternal government even over sinless people ergo evil does not necessitate government. The punishment of evil is only one aspect of government.

What are the Laws the governing authorities are to enforce? What would you like those to be based on?

I missed this! When is the next live event?

Democrats installed Jim Crow democrats have always disgusting views.

Help me out...so he his arguing that the Governing Officials should punish evil doers not by the first table of the Law but by the second table of the Law, correct?

😅😅

People are free to be who they are. There is nothing wrong with that. There is nothing wrong with people identifying how they identifying or loving whom they love. The truly disgusting thing is demanding people act or live one way just because you chose to and quilting them when they don't. Get a life

I'm a Christian and a mom of TWO adult kids with Autism. We have never used identity terms to describe them. Everything you guys brought up is what I have found in Autism circles. We use to be part of numerous groups and left because of the hyper focus on the identity of Autism ( this was back in the early 2000s) I'm always reminded and encouraged by the Scripture in Exodus where God tells Moses He is the one who makes the deaf and mute ( Exodus 4:11)Our identity is in Christ. Even my two Autistic kids will tell you they are Christians who have Autism and it doesn't define them Thank you for discussing this and bringing it to light.

When I visit most churches I do not sing because I am convinced that the only acceptable songs to be used are from God's inspired book of Praise which is the Book of Psalms. Sadly Today must churches don't sing any Psalms at all which means I cannot sing in the service. Psalms Hymns and Spiritual songs is a triadic expression refering to the book of Psalms. The imposition of uninipired worship songs unto congregants is a legalistic violation of Christian Liberty. The bible never tells us make up or own songs and use them in worship. So today in our age of gross declension people are actually being more faithful when the refuse to particpate in unscriptural innovations in worship. Today most people who call themselves reformed and claim to hold to regulative principle of worship in practice don't really hold to it.

I would say that the bad aspects of Kingdom and Culture is when flexibility becomes squishiness and relativity becomes post-modern relativism (i.e. everything is relative therefore nothing has any meaning). My friend fits in the 3rd group and many of his complaints about the 2nd is when this happens. At best this squishiness/relativism is inconsistency/hypocrisy within our group (we fall short of the true ideal that founds the balance because we are still this sinful world and our sinful flesh), at worst it is a misuse of our view (others claiming it while either not understanding truly it or intentionally bastardizing it).

Sometimes I choose not to sing because the theology in the lyrics is off. Sometimes I choose not to sing because the whole "worship" service is set up to be more of a performance by those "leading". Is this still "sin?"

There is no instrument other than the human voice in the New Testament. The instrument was only used in worship during animal sacrifice under the law of Moses. We are commanded to “Sing and make melody in our hearts” in NT. The songs with music were not used in ordained worship in OT. We can rock out in a worshipful life today, and for our enjoyment every day, but the ordained worship pattern we follow illustrated by the first century church is unadulterated accapella. There is only one day we have a worship service for the God of First Fruits, it’s the first day of the week. He’s not interested in your man made instruments. He wants to hear from what HE made, and from your heart.

Meh. Sin? You’re kidding.

How often we gain clarity on a text by remembering to simply read the context! Thank you for the Romans 13:8-10 exposition. Very insightful. 32:14 But I would contend that Russell is allowed to do interpretive dance on Sunday mornings IF there’s an interpretive dance interpreter present.

You guys have no idea how helpful this talk was. I’ve been struggling to articulate the dangerous misapplication of scripture inherent in navigators-type “discipleship” courses. Our church has been taken over by this influence and now no one is allowed to have Sunday school or Bible studies, because it’s “not discipleship.” Thank you and please keep this video posted so I can use it!

Is this podcast taking place in a church choir loft?

The problem is that these things exist on a spectrum. Is the size of your hands a pathology? No. But if you have 2mm hands or 2m hands, you're gonna have issues and that's appropriate. But just having smaller or larger hands than usual, 95th percentile, doesn't mean you should label it and build your entire identity around it.

All of identity politics can be diagnosed as Munchhausen syndrome.

The reason they call is a spectrum because it goes from severe non verbal to almost normal but either way it's not indentifying

once again people are commenting on things they know nothing about...

What about personality tests? My son has really gotten into the Enneagram and the Myers Briggs and now he thinks he is a particular number (Enneagram) or an INTP (Myers Briggs). I told him our identity is found in Christ. Not the result of some test.

ASD & ADHD are disorders though this does not mean that those of us who are can’t function sufficiently or even successfully. Under the medical definition of disorder, it fits the bill.

Father of two Autistic children. One, high functioning. One non-verbal. The problem is the extremes of the spectrum. My nonverbal daughter(15yo) is Autistic. Whereas my son(high functioning 13yo) is a person who has autism. I don't know if that explains it very well. But, a person must understand my daughter has Autism in order to interact with her. You do not need to know that with my son. He has his "quirks" but you wouldn't even know unless he told you.

A lot of 'neurodivergent' people have parents who absolutely use it as an excuse for their badly raised or behaved children.

You tipped your hand and revealed the flaw behind your position. Saying when people appeal to what Bahnsen or Calvin said your attitude is “who cares” and “what does scripture say”? True. Scripture is our first and final authority. However we stand on the shoulders of giants, to not acknowledge thousands of years of church history and theologians is a grave error. Give a man a Bible and start asking him questions and you’ll be in heresy within a few hours. Church history is not authoritative but it in informative, not to view it as such will have consequences.

I listened to both of the “What Theonomy Gets Wrong” episodes. When it comes to the second table issues or horizontal sins it sounds like y’all are Theonomists, there just seems to be some difference with how the first table offenses are handled. I think separating the authority of the church and state along those lines is an argument that can’t be ignored and I would LOVE to see y’all have that conversation with someone like Doug Wilson or Jeff Durbin. It’s unfortunate that you’ve encountered brothers being uncharitable in these talks, some of my favorite things to watch are those conversations where we have unity in Christ in the midst of some significant disagreement.

As a Christian, and as a parent with a child who has severe autism with slight mental retardation, I am VERY interested in this series. Thank you guys for actually researching this subject.

The show you didn't know you wanted, but hoped that you needed, but may never get in the end.

Looking forward to the next episode 6 months from now!!! 😅

Sounds to me like y’all are Theonomists you simply differ on what falls into the different spheres of sovereignty between church and state… When someone like Pastor Jeff from stands before legislators and proclaims to them the gospel and their duty to protect the unborn and abolish abortion, seems like y’all would be in 100% agreement… The state ought to bear the sword against murder.

So I heard about your Podcast from Instagram and I have enjoyed this series. I do take exception to one part of your theology (that was expressed in the second podcast of this series more). And that is that the state must acknowledge that its authority comes from Yahweh and Jesus. I don't find this to be accurate and it seems to be letting in Theonomy's nose into the tent in my opinion; which is why we get to this video, right? I think the distinction between church and state is great enough that Christians can look at the state and see that it is instituted by God and has the power of the sword and know that God uses it for his greater purpose -- but that it is unimportant whether leaders acknowledge the Christian God or not. The US doesn't -- we have an anonymous Deist God that is spoke of, not the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. But we do have a government that is run fairly well mostly and allows Christians to worship in peace mostly. I don't need the state to be Christian. And calling for the State to be Christian -- even in this narrow sense -- is just a first step to Theonomy. No, the state can govern through natural law and be totally agnostic about it's background. Muslim? Jewish? Atheists just being kind. And this would be just fine. There is no "ought" as if it would be better if a government were Christian. How would that affect the Church? It would not in the least and nor would it affect the Christian in the least. When we don't grant this first step, we don't have to have a government that outlaws blasphemy. Our government can completely ignore a Christian world view and let Christians worship in peace. There is no reason for it to try and convict the world: that is the Church's work. There is no reason for it to rule the world and insist on Jesus being the center of life: again, that is the Church's work. Your view of the state isn't narrow enough. I certainly don't see Scripture making the claim that Governments need to acknowledge God. But this is just one point: I liked your podcast and I look forward to hearing about other topics!

Yeah….it would be interesting to hear you guys have a conversation on this topic of Theonomy with Jeff Durbin or Doug Wilson. I have enjoyed hearing your conversation against Theonomy, because I think it’s good that we as brothers and sisters in Christ, discuss tertiary issues with gentleness and respect. There have been some confusing things that I’m still trying to understand on where I stand on this issue, and that’s why I’ve been so thankful for y’all’s discussion on this topic. 👍

Have a conversation with Jeff Durbin!

God and governments have a lot in common. Both are vehicles for systemic inequality and retaining a status quo of power. Jesus was homeless, black, and a carpenter. Most forms of government today are an anathema to true christian values. free palestine! stop the bombing of bethlehem

31:30 - key principle identified. Put another way: "The following statement, if correctly understood, will help to clear up a lot of confusion: The nation of Israel was not the 'Body of Christ,' even though the Body of Christ is indeed the true 'Israel of God.'" (John Reisinger in "The Four Seeds of Abraham")

Audio is good, sounds kinda like you're in a bowl though

Thank you so much for putting this series together. I was drawn into this movement by a combination of Perspectives and our pastor. All these terminologies were there...POPs, teaching obedience. By God's grace, He led me out of that straight into a church plant where I had to open the book of Acts and suddenly all the DMM stuff was not only irrelevant but also seemed "off" from what the Bible said. That was nearly 4 years ago but now that I discovered this series, you are filling in so many holes. I will readily admit that I was Biblically and theologically naive when I was drawn into this. Sound exegesis is the antidote to so many unsound practices.

1. You guys are mixing theonomy with theocracy. 2. You are assuming that theonomy wants to establish OT judicial laws verbatim. 3. You are assuming there’s neutrality between Christianity and the world.