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Winwing Ursa Minor (2 for space, or pair with TWCS from TM for air. If you want to spend a bit more can go VKB Gladiator. But for best bang for your buck, Winwing Orion 2

T16k Is not good, better for the money than Logitech if you ask me, but still not good. TMWH is a good device but it is VASTLY overpriced. I wouldn't pay more than 299 for the HOTAS, not just the stick, but the whole HOTAS when it comes to WH. If you are paying Warthog money go Winwing or VKB. (WW being the better value) AVA is good, but lacks some features because of a bad design around the damper, but unfortunately the grips are VERY overpriced. 249 for those grips is pretty bad 149 would be appropriate.

If you fly space, two Winwing Ursa minors. One can be configured as a throttle If you fly both. If you only got aviation, buy a Winwing Ursa and a TM TWCS throttle, that is a significantly better setup for the same price or less

I don't have a listing of them unfortunately

Just because you point out flaws in a device doesn't mean you hate them, it's called being a reviewer. I know, you are used to many other reviewers that say almost exclusively positive things, they aren't reviewers, they are promoters. The next grips Virpil is releasing the "Aero" series actually seems to address the ergo issues to some degree. So we'll see how it goes

@@FalconsLedge Reviewing is fine, but still you were shitting all over them. You didn't explain your reasoning for keeping them even though you seem to hate them.

@krazyivan007 1. I went over both positives and negatives. 2. I sold it. Have an awesome day.

Hi there, it looks like you may not have looked at currently available products there are great solutions available for even less than an X56 like the Ursa minor, just as one example. Also, I never compared this device to virpil. There is absolutely no reason to buy an X56 in 2024, it a horribly inaccurate device that is extremely low quality from a dead ecosystem from a company that doesn't care about your hobby. Have a great day.

Yeah I've seen that mod out there, I don't have any pics of it but what you essentially do is attach a spring only to one arm of the pincer, and attach the other to the body of the gimbal

@@FalconsLedge Yeah I just found out some guy using the Y X-axis block plate so the buttom of the Y spring attached to that. But of course you wouldn't be able to lock X axis anymore But in my case I don't need to coz I'm using it for Star Citizen. X axis is needed for strafing

well.... is not actually for me> I'm currently using T16000+TWCS. But I just bought a pair of VKB for my older brother. He play SC alot

@r2artCH they do great for SC!

@@FalconsLedge I know, I do lot of research b4 buying. The reason for me not to get one for my self is that I play other flying games too. But My brother only play Space sims

Return it. Trust me. I did.

@@davidrenton or buy two and you can configure them however you need ;)

Gotta love bf1942 tunes!

great choice!

Absolutely not. You can have an all metal Winwing setup that is better for that

IMO in 2024 warthog should not be priced over $299. Plastic internals just make it absolutely not worth it

@@FalconsLedge well what would you recommend?

@herthakbar if your budget is 450, best value is Winwing Metal warthog

Thank you very much, I love to be able to help!

FFB was held back by a patent that expired a couple years ago. It will gain some market share now.

There is no rudder setup for Orion 2 at this time. They once offered a z axis module, but it's not been available for some time. Orion is geared towards aviation with pedals. In terms of Ursa it is certainly not high end in quality but it absolutely dominates Logitech in quality, it's not even close.

VKB gladiators are great, but no free shipping so it will be almost 400. Orion 2 is an amazing value. For space dual stick is best. So the Ursa pair is a great value. X56 throttle is ok, but not great. I'd buy two ursas over the x56 throttle any day.

​@@FalconsLedgeThanks very much for the super quick reply. Appreciate it. I was under the impression people mapped a hat to rudders but it wasn't actually specified anywhere. I really wish the Ursa minor buttons didn't look like such garbage, but I guess I'll probably just grit my jaw. Do you think the left space stick would work alongside my good ole Wingman Force?

@TheTawniest i mean, there is the shaker kit that has a thumb stick, and that would work.

@@Niallistical sure, I'd love to have seen them innovate, so it's a con, how much of a con depends on your point of view

@FalconsLedge They conned VKB sure. But con as a downside to the product is ridiculous.

Awesome, so there is your point of view ;)

What is the downside to owning the WinWing with a copied gimble? Does it decrease the performance? Mine is still in transit. I fail to see any cons associated with that as an end consumer. The price is low, performance is very good. These are mot subjective opinions. Hard facts.

@Niallistical no it's totally fine

@@JohnVanderbeck the Mcgu is larger than the WH. IMO for someone who likes the WH grip, the WW F16EX will be a good solution for you

@@FalconsLedge Was looking at this for the pinky axis. I've got a few WW items and never been very happy with thier company

@JohnVanderbeck Mcgu is great, but certainly for large hands

@@gofres will need pedals with this one, it's mostly an aviation grip

@FalconsLedge just ordered the Orion 2 with 15 throttle and Hog stick. Great deal at £350! So I bought the peddles too 😁 Now I'm scared of what the import taxes will be but that's a problem I can ignore for now 😂

@@pedropires1686 www.thingiverse.com/thing:6061041

@@Embarkation1 because this is an NXT EVO, not just an NXT like you have

@ I guessed as much. From the website, I believe I can just buy the be new base to upgrade it.

@@DanielDrake look forward to doing the high tier with you, way more fun

@@POLSKIKAJAK yep, but this isn't a price of stick where I'm going to be really judgemental about it. It's worlds better than sticks like the X56.

Gladiator is certainly a ton better than anything logitech makes.

@@vrflightguyinpjpants5023 i rotated the whole base forward and used the straight stick adapter. You can't rotate the grip on the adapter, so I don't think what you are considering will work.

@@FalconsLedge So, I can buy the straight premium stick and mount it at an angle then. Does the "space stick" version has all the clutches, etc to convert it to a throttle?

@vrflightguyinpjpants5023 yes both have the same features, just one is at an angle. I bought the straight stick and Ota adapter together

@@FalconsLedge Thanks. I think I have a desk mount which can mount at an angle lying around somewhere. Where can I find extension for the stick, can't find any at Etsy.

@vrflightguyinpjpants5023 3d printed are available but not recommended, it is not designed to use extensions

@Smood47 it stayed S Tier dude.

@juanalejandrosotto6217 metal internals matter. And $40 more for all metal is a massive value. The gladiator is good, but since WW went free shipping, they are without a doubt the value king right now.

The NXT didn't fit into the price values. I couldn't justify a $200 stick as entry level (shipping included)

@rodrigofarruguia1708 also having owned both ursa and nxt (the first Ursa outside of Winwing) it doesn't dominate, in fact in several respects the NXT is better.

I will never hold that against a replica stick. O2 is a replica stick of aircraft, which don't have twist. That's one of those things that is a nice to have if you need it, otherwise a total non factor.

@@FalconsLedge yeah, but a lot of people who are in the market for getting it probably don’t care that much about it being a replica, and on subreddits it seems like one of the main factors pushing people towards the vkb gladiator over the Orion 2 is the lack of twist capability

@mrcat5508 I don't disagree that it wouldn't help it, is just not something I'm going to hold against it considering it's intended use case

@@FalconsLedge fair enough, I just think that as a mid tier HOTAS, a twist stick is still pretty important because not many people in that price range have rudder pedals, but the Orion 2 is also in a bit of a weird price range where it’s kind of high mid price range to low high end, so I can see why they didn’t include a twist, especially because it’s supposed to be replica

@mrcat5508 cost/complexity/intended use, but also at the time they offered a z axis module you could add

@@WhiskeyHunterVAT69 yup

That doesn't fit into this price category. Look at my value category ac free weeks ago

They had a previous video where the ursa minor was featured

Well, is rather have that over a x52, and I don't know if I'd buy it over a T16K, so I stuck it there, but I definitely wanted to repeat my recommendation on just stepping over that land mine ;)

Center plate is for VKB gunfighter, Virpil T50/WarBRD, and warthog. One of the larger plates could likely be adapted.

@FalconsLedge sorry to sound dumb lol. How does the VKB mount? Seems the base holes are wider than the stand mount

I am assuming you are talking about the gladiator, that mount is designed for the gunfighter, totally different base. What I did to my gladiator is I drilled two holes in the front of the plate where it extends beyond the base. Do at your own risk of course, otherwise you will need to build an adapter plate.

@FalconsLedge oh shit yea i meant the gladiator. Was trying to stay withing the budget lol. My abd. But ok. Thanks

@Shumanator94 definitely, drill the Base at the front to fit a couple of the holes, or make an adapter plate, best idea. Personally I drilled the plate, because it's strong and ensures the least parts used in the process

@@missheepious sure.

@@JKGaming1414 yup! I'm in Utah

These are sticks under 150 shipping included. VKB doesn't make any devices that fit into that category. They will be in the Mid tier list coming out this weekend.

@@thomaslamont3237 oh yes I certainly have dealt with the footprint! It's done pretty well so far

@@WhiskeyHunterVAT69 sorry the first part has no audio, I was experimenting with some new stuff

@@WhiskeyHunterVAT69 it's a good device for a cheap price!

I can't speak to what happened in your particular case, but I'm doubting that the warranty didn't cover removing the spring, I'm betting it was not about over tightening the dampers that did it. VKB definitely has better service in my opinion, but it's also almost double the price with shipping taken into account. Sorry to hear you had trouble.

Dual Winwing ursas, 115 each free delivery in the us

How many combat sim sticks have they released in the last decade? Zero, dead ecosystem, not being developed, nothing new on the way aka dead

@ Makes sense I just wanted to clarify what you meant 👍

@Lucky_Gamer4876 you bet. Just know it's not personal, if Logitech came out with an updated stick that was great tomorrow, I'd be singing their praises.

@@RedTTHayo you have no idea how happy that makes me to save someone from this pain.

@@FalconsLedgewhat’s the best HOTAS for like a 250$ budget I’m getting into sim flying and I want one that is going to last a few years and one that doesn’t feel really bad.

If it absolutely must be hotas meaning traditional throttle, then mix brands, TM TWCS and Winwing Ursa Minor. If you don't mind doing Omni throttle, then do two ursas, one with the Omni throttle adapter

Also, there is no real negative to going with two different brands, I have a bunch of different brands in my setup, WW, Virpil, VPFORCE, VKB, and Thrustmaster

@@FalconsLedge I was gonna get an X56 but every review is mostly negative so what you’re saying is I should pair a Tm twcs and a winwing Ursa Minor?