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@@DavidMa-s2b what do you mean by “the hook”? I assume you mean what amounts to, the unified quantum field theory of flight numbers?

@@bjornekloo I made another video called “goodness grip”. Check it out if you get a chance. With an assumed starting point of having decent form mechanics: Pronation of the wrist during the release point causes nose up. This is most often caused by higher thumb pressure downward and/or finger pressure pulling into the palm. It’s common for folks to roll their wrists inward because holding tension towards supination while holding the elbow up can be challenging. In the “goodness grip” video, I’m making the case that proper grip pressure helps keep the wrist in supination during the hit point, as well as allowing for each finger to release cleaner with a natural upward pressure, as well as keeping the thumb/index finger pressure neutral at the final point of release. It also allow for greater and faster wrist movement, whereas dominant thumb/index finger pressure tends to lock the wrist into one position limiting flexion and extension.

@@davidk6546 thanks for watching and for the comment! Power DGA is my brother Paul “Uli”, he also has a great understanding of disc physics also.

@@kennydon thanks for watching and the question! I don’t believe I stated the center of gravity changes. I imagine you are referring to the part of the video where I stated that “the moment the disc comes in contact with the ground, the point of contact becomes the fulcrum point”. A disc in flight has its center of gravity or center of mass at its center. This doesn’t change, weather the flight is flat, hyzer, or an-hyzer, its flight properties will be subjected to the forces of spin, gravity, lift, velocity, and drag. During flight, the air pressure over the disc changes with speed, and thus how the disc moves in relation to the forces disrupting and tipping its balance towards turn and fade. When the disc comes in contact with the ground, the discs center of mass doesn’t change, and its normal flight properties of lift, drag, velocity, spin, and gravity are still acting upon it. As the Weight of the disc pushes down into the ground, the ground pushes up. This contact point now becomes the fulcrum point for all those other forces to act and react to. What changes is where we are balancing it from. Another analogy could be: we can balance a broomstick at is center of gravity lengthways, or we can balance it on its end. Its center of gravity doesn’t change, where we measure its center does change. A disc can be balanced on its injection point, or upright on its edge. I hope that answers your question!

@ you should work for Area 51 designing ufo. Thanks man imma reread this again.

@@loreno1317 yes, they are all variations on the fluid dynamics of lift, drag, and gyroscopic precession.

@@mattbraam6357 depends on the direction you are squeezing your pinky and ring finger. If they are squeezing harder into the palm in a pulling motion, it can lead to wrist pronation. If the squeezing motion is upward into the meat of the palm below the thumb, it helps hold the wrist toward supination.. I did a video just after this one called “goodness grip” where I cover this. Please check it out.!

@@triptaylor2509 thanks for commenting and asking:) as simply put as possible, when speed decreases AOA (Angle of attack) increases. This is what leads to a stall on a traditional wing. The center of pressure moves towards the front as AOA increases. Speed changes the center of pressure (where lift is acting on the wing). I’ve taken what I’ve learned from building rc model gliders, and what I’ve gleaned from many lengthy discussions with fluid dynamics engineers to arrive at this current understanding. I’m always learning, revising, growing in understanding, and improving on articulating what I’m seeing to others. Here is a link to some of the bests study’s ever done on the subject for discs. Most everyone references this research. www.researchgate.net/profile/William-Crowther-6/publication/268559957_FrisbeeTM_Aerodynamics/links/552fb5af0cf27acb0de627b8/FrisbeeTM-Aerodynamics.pdf www.researchgate.net/profile/William-Crowther-6/publication/225330184_Simulation_of_a_spinstabilised_sports_disc/links/54dc61150cf28d3de65f9d3d/Simulation-of-a-spinstabilised-sports-disc.pdf

Thanks for your comment! Ok, for your first question, for simplicity sake and for introducing the basics in this video, I’m discussing and assuming an angle of attack of 0. This helps us visualize what is going on as the airfoil is interacting with the air at both the front and back of the disc. Common vernacular in disc golf for a high angle of attack would “nose up”. A good AOA would typically be 0 anyhow. The other thing I did not discuss which really weighs into the equation, is what happens at the trailing edge of the disc, which is twofold, drag (which determines disc speed), and the manner in which the airflow is finally diverted and brought back together. I suppose this is for a future video. For your second question we need to take a look at “Why does a wing generate lift”? Let’s think of a traditional wing, an airplane wing like a Cessna to start with. If we assume Bernoulli’s principle: as the wing passes through the air, it’s diverted above and below the airfoil. Air passing over the curved top of an airfoil must travel faster than air passing under the bottom which creates higher pressure and so the airfoil moves upwards from low to high. Next, a traditional wings balance point is typically set at 1/3 the chord of the wing. This is where its optimal Lift/Drag for its particular wing speed would balanced to fly efficiently and carry its load. If the airspeed for the wing would begin to exceed the optimum L/D, the drag would begin to pull the center of lift behind the balance point and cause the wing to begin to tip forward. If the wing were to be flown too fast, the aircraft would begin to move into a steep dive. On the opposite side of this understanding, if a wing begins to fly slower than the optimal L/D, the lift pressure would move in front of the CG; the wing would also be moving towards a higher AOA and if flown too slow it would eventually stall. With a disc, unlike a traditional aircraft wing, the leading edge of the disc/wing is exactly the same as the trailing edge and the center of balance is the center of the disc. With an over-stable disc like a Raptor, the air diverted over the top is near the same as below, and the wing shape doesn’t allow for the center of lift to move behind the center of balance. This means that its optimal L/D for its designed airspeed is at, or in front of, of the CG. We must understand also that a discs airspeed is dynamically changing and slowing down throughout its flight due to drag. Which means that the center of lift pressure is also dynamically moving or changing also. With a disc like a raptor, very few people can throw the disc fast enough to cause it to “turn”, meaning, throw it fast enough that the induced drag will cause the center of lift to move behind the center of balance. If we consider a Captain raptor, we will notice that more airflow is diverted below the part line than above, this means the disc was designed so the center of lift will typically always be in front of the center of balance or CG. Worthy of note and for understanding. With a disc like the tilt, the air at the front is all diverted downward. This force pushes up on the nose of the disc, the assumption would be a direct change to Angle of attack, however, this force is transferred 90degrees away in the direction of the discs spin due to gyroscopic precession and the effect is seen as instant fade and over-stability (similar to lift acting in front of CG but far more pronounced)

@@DiscgliderPete awesome! Thank you for taking the time to explain it in more detail🙏

@@madsbundgaard9014 hopefully that helped

@ it truely did!

@@tylerharper819 thank you!

Thank you!

@@trevormenard thank you! Reach out to me via IG and let me know how it works and if you have questions.

@@Element108Hs thank you for the question! it’s based on speed, lift,and drag. A blunt edge disc like a putter or midrange disc is slower, because its shape creates more drag at the back of the disc. The wing shape dictates how much airflow moves over the top of the disc and therefore how much lift is or is not generated. Throw the disc slowly and the lift generated is low, thus the drag is less because its speed is slow. Throw it faster where its speed is greater than it optimum designed lift/drag ratio and the lift moves backwards from center of lift/balance due to drag. The faster or sharper a disc is, the faster it needs to move in order to keep the optimal lift/drag ratio to fly. The optimal lift/drag ratio is dictated by the shape of the “wing of the disc, the height and shape of the parting line, and how much airflow is diverted over the top compared to the bottom. A fast disc (speed 13), and a slow disc (speed 2), both have a similar diameter of 21.4mm and rim depth at let’s say 1.3cm, so technically they both displace the same amount of air. The first part of this is understanding that, the greatest difference to the sharp edge disc is not that it’s “cuts” through the air faster, but that is trailing edge generates significantly less drag, than a blunt edge disc. The second is understanding that the leading edges shape, dictates its lift, its angle of attack, and is stability in tandem with what happens with its trailing edge. Because a discs flight is not one static airspeed, but dynamically changes throughout its flight, its lift, drag, and angle of attack (nose angle) is dynamically changing based on is initiated speed until its velocity is no longer able to sustain flight and either hits the ground or stalls and falls to the ground. I hope this helps you:)

@@DiscgliderPete Ah, sorry, should have worded my question more clearly. By "speed of the disc," I didn't mean it's speed rating but rather the speed at which it is flying through the air. So to rephrase, why does the center of lift move depending on how fast the disc is flying?

@@Element108Hs I think the answer is still in my last comment, but I’ll try to simplify. The short answer is: the position of where lift and drag affects a wing is dependent on its airspeed. Longer explanation: Let’s look at a traditional airfoil/wing. If we observe an airplane wing, we will see that, if we fly it too slow the leading edge will pitch upwards and the airplane will begin to stall. Meaning that the Lift has moved too far ahead of the center of balance. If we fly the airplane too fast the leading edge will tip downwards pushing the plane into a dive due to lift pulling upward on the back of the wing. An airplane balances is L/D by maintaining its optimal airspeed via its motor. For our purposes lest assume we are talking about an under-stable fairway driver, something akin to an Undertaker or Heat. A disc has several forces acting upon it during flight: Inertia, Lift, drag, gravity, and angular momentum which is spin. Every disc has its optimum flight speed where its lift to drag ratio is acting over its center of balance. Because a disc’s speed is constantly changing due to drag, a disc is never flying a constant speed. If it leaves the hand at 60mph, it begins slow down until it stalls and falls or hits the ground. Let’s assume that the Discraft Heat’s optimum flight speed for perfectly straight flight is 55mph. If I throw it exactly 55mph, it will begin slowing down immediately due to the resistance of the air and its drag, so the time the disc is at it’s optimal Performance is very short. As the disc slows down, the center of lift moves forward of the center of balance because the air is moving slower and therefore there is less drag and subsequently less lift. Let’s say we throw the Heat 65 mph. Now the air is passing over the wing much faster, there is much more drag acting on the back of the disc, and thus the center of lift is pulled/dragged behind the center of balance. Because the lift is pulling up on the back of the disc, the disc begins to turn during the first portion of the flight, however the disc is constantly slowing down due to drag so the position of lift is dynamically shifting from the back of the disc towards the front of the disc, so that at some point it’s glide is 55mph, then 40, then 25, and so on. If we throw a very over-stable disc like a Captain Raptor, the shape of the wing doesn’t allow for much air to pass over the top of the disc, so very little lift is generated, thus the drag at the back of the disc is minimized and thus the lift never moves behind the center of balance. The disc is constantly in fade because the lift vector is only acting ahead of the CG.

I am describing a disc released with a flat release and perfect nose angle or angle of attack of 0. I appreciate you posting your comment, but I do disagree with you on a few points. The front of the disc is only part of the story. The front of the disc is the leading edge of an airfoil, but it’s not an airfoil all by itself. An “airfoil” is a complete wing. Wing physics and flight rely on a balance point, be it a traditional airplane wing or a disc golf disc. The leading edge of an airfoil dictates the stability and the overall lift capability of a wing in high speed and low speed flight. The wing of a small Cessna 182 is a slow flight high lift airfoil. It does not perform well at high speed and becomes dangerous if flown too fast. The wing of a leer jet has a more symmetrical airfoil that’s designed for very high speeds and becomes dangerous if flown too slow. The leading edge of each of these aircraft are designed for very different flight characteristics, but the leading edge is very important in where and how it diverts the air above and below the wing. Note that a traditional aircraft wing is typically balanced at around 30% of the wing cord. A disc golf discs balanced point is at its center. Spin is what creates its stability rather than a fulcrum balance point on a traditional airfoil. Same as a disc golf putter and disc golf driver, one is slow with higher lift and one is fast and does not perform well at slow speed flight. The reason the lower parting line of a discs leading edge generates more lift is because more air is diverted over the top of the disc. The far less discussed part of an airfoil is what happens at the trailing edge of a wing/disc. As air passes over the top curve of the wing it first is diverted upward then passes over the top then travels down the curve of the trailing edge, then off of the disc/wing at the angle of the bevel. This is the location of drag. Drag is what dictates a discs speed, which is to say that it’s not what happens at the leading edge that dictates a discs speed, but what happens at the back of the disc. In our case, because our discs diameters and depths are relatively the same, our discs “displace” the same amount of air in flight. So the second part of understanding flight, is that lift always comes with drag. Back to the airplane wing analogy. The balance point of a wing is typically married to it airspeed. If you fly faster the lift will move behind the balance point of the wing and tip the plane forward towards a dive, this is offset by adding up on the elevator to maintain level flight. If a Cessna were to go into a steep dive and fly far past the wings airspeed the wings lift force would move towards the rear of the wing beyond a point where it could be corrected by elevator input. This happens because of drag, the faster you go, the more lift is generated, and the more drag is increased. Back to a disc, talking about a disc with an angle of attack of 0. Our under-stable driver generates more lift at higher speeds and thus more drag. Because our wing is symmetrical (round), and because the leading edge is the same as the trailing edge (different than an airplane wing), our airfoils balance point is the center, and this it’s optimal lift/drag ratio would be when its lift is acting directly over is center. This is a temporary moment in time when this occurs though. When we throw a disc faster that it’s optimal Lift/drag ratio, its lift vector moves behind its CG, this means that lift is acting further towards the trailing edge of the disc. This is what causes high speed “turn”. As the disc slows down due to drag, the lift vector temporarily passes back over the CG and as it slows more, the lift moves ahead of the CG which then results in fade. During the slower portion of flight the lift is no longer able to sustain flight and the angle of attack increases as the fade increases.

@@kevinkevinholt I think this is the beginning of it. The more I get into this, the more I believe getting the grip right early and one’s Disc golf career Will save a world of retraining.

Thank you!!

Thank you!

That’s a wonderful question. It’s air airspeed and pressure issue. Let’s think of it this way. Imagine a boat moving slowly through the water. Now imagine its wake moving out alongside and behind it. The wake is small because the pressure of the boat against the water is small. Now let’s make the boat go fast. The boat now raises out of the water and rides higher because the pressure is greater and as a result the wake is greater also. If our boat goes fast enough the pressure will increase and the entire boat will skim across the surface because the center of pressure is well behind the center of the boat’s balance. Now let’s slow the boat back down. As the boat slows, the pressure below it decreases and the bow begins to pitch upwards because the center of pressure moves forward of the center of the boats balance. With our boat analogy we can see how the speed of an object within a fluid can change pressures, how that center of pressure can be forward or behind the objects depending on its speed. With a disc, the principle is basically the same. The faster a disc moves through the air, the greater the pressure, and the more that pressure slips behind the center of balance. When the disc slows, the center of pressure/lift decreases and moves ahead of our discs center of balance, and much like our boat, the nose pitches upwards increasing the angle of attack as the disc begins to fall. I hope that helps answer you question:)

@@DiscgliderPetedude thanks for taking the time to educate. Super mind blowing and insightful!

@@beenschmokin thank you for your comment , however, I beg to differ. I believe You’re talking about angle of attack. Angle of attack is different than the shape of a wing And how the wings divert air over the top and bottom and more importantly diverts air at its “tail”. What I mainly discussed in this video is how a Disc interacts with the air based on a 0° angle of attack. A disc thrown with a positive angle attack will pitch upward and slow down quicker, and bringing the disc into the fade portion of light, faster, which limits distance, a drastic version of this we would call an air-bounce. When throwing for distance a negative angle of attack somewhere in the neighborhood of 2 to 4° is preferable, in that the nose angle is calculated against the launch angle (typically a positive number because of throwing upwards) A negative nose angle( “ angle of attack” ) at launch, allows the disk to push forward longer and help spend off the positive angle of attack that occurs at the end of flight, which we call fade, and occurs because of gyroscopic possession and where the lift vector occurs during the slower portion of flight. The main point being, angle of attack has to do with the angle of the entire flightplate /wingchord it of an airplane wing or a disc golf disc measured against the trajectory, vs. how much lift is generated by the specific shape of the airfoil. To your point, with your hand outside the window, your hand being perfectly flat, a twist of the wrist can induce a positive or negative angle of attack. However, if you cup your hand, you would generate more lift, and more drag. This will require you to hold different angle of attacks based on the shape of wing you cup your hand into. (moving your pinky finger up and down in this scenario mimics the trailing edge of the elevator on an aircraft, which also changes an attack)

Agreed. From reach back to the 4000ths of a second before it rips from the hand it there is the equivalent of a half rotation imparted on the disc, which on techdisc reads as a ramp up to 800rpms. The main thing up for discussion for me was, can we call it a “gyroscope” when being leveraged from the edge, or is there a different scientific definition we are supposed to use. I feel I’m grasping the general understanding of what’s going on and sharing it, but I try to be careful to not make assumptions in my own statements sense I don’t have a phd in physics.

Thank you

So I assume that when a disc is in glide mode that the lift force aligns with the center of gravity. Any understanding of why air speed across the disc causes the lift position to shift?

@@David-ps2nb thanks for the comment! For simplicity sake, we could look at an air plane wing. The wing would be designed for optimal airspeed to lift ratio, in line with how the Weight of the disc is balanced over the wing. Typically near 30% of the wing chord. The faster you fly, the more the center of press pressure (lift) would move behind the center of balance, causing the aircraft to tip forward. If the aircraft were to slow down below the optimal airspeed, the center of pressure would move forward of the center of balance and the wing want to tip up and eventually would be in danger of stalling. What the airplane has that a disc does not, is a motor. This allows the management of speed and angle of attack to keep the wing in its optimal flight envelope. With a disc, we throw it, so based on the disc’s designed flight speed, if it’s thrown faster than its optimal L/D glide speed the lift pressure moves behind the center of balance, this is what causes “turn”. But because a disc doesn’t have a motor, and “drag” is constantly pulling on the disc in opposition to its forward velocity, the disc is constantly slowing down during its flight, because of this the center of lift pressure is dynamically moving from behind the center of balance towards the center, and then eventually in front of the center of balance toward the end of the flight. If the disc is thrown high enough, it like an airplane will stall. The higher the speed of a disc, the more narrow its optimal L/D glide portion of flight is. Thinking of a neutral midrange, it has a relatively wide L/D flight envelope, however it has a lot of drag due to its more blunt edge, so its distance is more limited.

Thank you!

Thank you!

Over all I think you’re getting it. the lift force pushes against the ground, the ground pushes back, that effect takes place 90* away and causes the tail to move down, this in effect lifts the nose of the disc and is also responsible for the disc “standing up”. Higher Spin causes the disc to resist all the forces more, it stabilizes the flight and roll. Spin doesn’t cause more lift or turn…. Once/if a disc reaches a point of equilibrium between lift and gravity, the momentum and spin will allow for a longer run out.

I hope this helps!

Hi, thanks for the question! For drone comparisons I dunno, I don’t really ever throw the drone, this is the only one we’ve got, and Asher pulled it out of the archives to test it alongside these other disc. I’ll try to do better with filming with zooming in on the flight paths.

Yes!

Sorry about that, I’ll work on balancing that better in the future. Thank you for the feedback… pun intended:)

This was the second time I’ve ever thrown a drone… it’s like once in a lifetime…kinda like in the natural world with bee hives:)

I’ve been throwing there for 8years! It’s a great spot

You mean are using tech disc?

I’ll work on that and try to do better. Thank you for the feedback

Yea, he’s fun to watch, and has regularly been going past 300’ recently, with his farthest throw over 360’.

I think this disc will shine for folks on the forehand side of things. Asher is in love with all discs right now, loves trying all of them and everything is interesting to him. It’s fun to see that kind of optimism and see how little he is biased. Love that kid!

Tried 2 hours ago to get my daugther to try a forehand, the grip were fine, she looked at me intently and then proceeded trice to load up a forehand just to somehow quicky shift the disc and her body throwing a ripping griplocked anhyzer chop 7'... 6 years so i get it *weird daddy* xD

It’s not better than a zone, the zone is pretty awesome. There does seem to be a market right now where everybody is wanting something wildly over stable. Although I am sponsored by Discraft, I try to do an honest review, tell what I think of the new Discs and what they will be useful for. Almost all the new dish have not made it into my bag, though the Athena has been a new addition, other than that it’s pretty old-school bag . It was good having my son along to get his opinion.

@@DiscgliderPete Thanks for the information I really appreciate it. Also, getting my oldest into discing has been a real pleasure as well, that's awesome you're getting yours involved. Great video as always, I'm a fan of your physics behind the disc videos as well.

I didn’t use the wasp, for the same reason I didn’t use the buzzz what were the Malta. The closest comparison would be the Buzzz OS and still the swarm is way more over stable than it.