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@@goodgamer1419 I agree but I’ve found that most games that make grinding optional have a solution that leans toward making grinding a complete waste of time. I made these systems in an attempt balance aspects of both play styles.

@@Plexicraft yeah i see that, playing the demo, it honestly just makes normal encounters feel, unrewarding, i feel like with this kind of "Puzzle rpg" game fixed encounters make much more sense

@Hey thanks a ton for giving the demo a try :D I really appreciate the feedback as well and I’d love to hear more of your thoughts on it, especially aspects that aren’t connecting or working well so I can prioritize em as I build. I have been thinking through adding fixed or onscreen encounters but I’m still wondering if it fixes a symptom rather than the core issue. In my mind, I’d like the enemies to be a challenge and valid obstacle (without being annoying) and I’d like fighting them to be rewarding (but not make doing so overpower the player). Everyhting I tweak tends to have a big ripple effect on other aspects so I try to plan things out, but I agree, the incentive structure isn’t working as I’d like it to just yet.

@@Plexicraft tbh the other major issue is that i tend to get the item discriptions before the items themselfs, i feel like that kinda detracts from the expermentation with learning what the items do, mb put them a bit later

@@goodgamer1419 Really appreciate you saying so and I totally get what you mean but I’m a bit torn since this is an intentional design on my part. What I’m trying to avoid is a player defaulting to “I got a new Relic, I’m going to try everything I can with it until something works”. It is a valid way to play and one that allows for sequence breaking on your first try of the game (since it’s decently non-linear) but I set the order up so that initially, the player gets the clues then the relics to help start the juices flowing and give the player some time to piece together which Relic/s might help them “unlock” a new area. It’s also set up that way to make Relics feel a bit more special since you might feel less excited about getting one if you don’t know what you could use it for (especially when most of the time, what’s hidden is more so its power than its curse). Later on you begin to find more Relics ahead of their clues so the clues become more of the “final piece” of the puzzle. But that’s not even mentioning the monster clues and monster locations haha

@@JediMB hey, thanks for that! I did my best to keep things very light and streamlined for the crafting because I feel like there’s a significant learning curve for the foundational system of Relics and clues. Still though, I’m enjoying the challenge of testing out how far to spread the different pieces. At the moment it leans pretty heavy towards “too spread out” but I’m slowly making adjustments as I get feedback :)

@@geck-wiz thank you! I’m pumped to get back on the tools and start implementing pieces now that I’ve been able to note it all down and analyze it.

@@YukarinWakui how is the Joker fight? Fun stuff?

@ i did suffer alot during the joker fight more than elizabeth, his rule is more stupid and one of his megidolaon can almost clear the party

@ ooh I’m intrigued now. Are the rules explained in game or is it trial and error?

@ the rules are (heartless only) you must have auto -kaja or else 2 megidolaon you cant null/drain/repel you cant armegaddon you cant start with charge/concentrate you cant tetrakan makarakarn you cant have 3 debuffs on 2nd turn phase 3 all party member must trigger with an aliment (same with 2 turn phase 7) when he cast will of rebellion in turn 9 if his health above 50% he will heal himself

@ the fight has 2 main phases each main phase has magic/aliment/physical phase in order with an extra megidolaon phase in main phase 1 and extra down shot in main phase 2 (will or rebellion) will of rebellion phase is making joker from doing 2 action to 3 action increase his damage dealing and many more

@@Kaptime Yeah, Elizabeth is either a loot box you get to unlock and open with your Orpheus Telos key (rewarding your mastery of the planning and social link game mechanics) or she’s a crazy puzzle that requires a lot of patience and fusion crafting mastery to overcome. Either way, the trial and error aspect irks me much more than the fact that she has prescriptive rules. If we had known the rules earlier on, players could have focused on fusing various personas that don’t break those rules and feel a lot better about overcoming a unique obstacle. Getting the rug pull right when you get to her and needing to go back and grind is not a good feeling :/

@@robertocarrizalesdelfierro161 happy to help :)

@@ahmedelsayed5779 I appreciate the kind words! There’s a link in the video description to a reddit post I made detailing how to do phase 3. It’s a bit complex and sort of like a list worth having on hand so I don’t think it’d be useful in video form. If you give that a look over and are still struggling, just respond to this comment and I’ll see what I can do to bounce some ideas and walk you through it :)

The thing is i use helel with higher magic stats so trickster does way to much damage

And it also almost kills but i cant do enough damage even on peaceful

@@ahmedelsayed5779 oh so you’re actually going past her breakpoints unintentionally?

@@Plexicraft yep

@@sadpenguin2906 Yeah, I honestly wouldn’t mind (and probably even enjoy) it if I was able to discover the rules of her fight through out the game via something like the codexes you get when you complete a floor. That way I could tailor my personal team ahead of time over time and make tweaks as I learned more anticipating a crazy fight. Having to trial and error it out during the fight is… an odd choice haha

@FirebreederX1I honestly would expect less trial and error. Memorizing her patterns in terms of weakness and offense type is fine. Trial and error methods to find out when her HP insta kill threshold is and how you need to bring two different types of endures, and how she can not be beaten unless you have Armageddon is just strategy guide bait imo. I made one of the earliest complete guides on how to beat her reload version since I enjoy many aspect of her design. The trial and error aspects sour it for many people and I totally empathize. There are much better ways to have the player “solve the puzzle” than to just have them face tank it for a crumb of info for hours if they’re the first to try / look up a guide if they’re not.

This is exactly what I thought about, Atlus tried to give us a smt experience but failed in its essence

@i-frforgot.my_name a boss shouldn’t have me reworking all my personas and to line up just to beat her, and it shouldn’t punish me for using optimal moves like megidoloan with concentration, the “one wrong move” aspect is total bullshit. I can understand the finding the weakness and exploitation part of the fight, but if I have to look up a guide and said guide tells me steps to beat a boss due to “hidden rules” then that boss has failed in my eyes cause if all it takes to beat the boss are steps there’s no boss just a chore of a fight

@@sadpenguin2906 I gotta say, I honestly enjoy the “rework your personas to beat her” aspect. It gives me more content essentially and a reason to get deeper into fusion crafting. I just wish that I had the clues of the rules in game.

@@ssjdennis6058 thanks! I totally get your perspective on it. I kind of like how prescriptive it is and I understand that it’s not fun to some people but imo the biggest issue is that the rules are only explained in game via trial and error.

@Plexicraft I also don't get why she heals up after the 9,999 move. I mean, that's above 10k health left. I'll try again tonight, as close as possible. Yesterday, I got close but pushed her in stage 3. Maybe someday, maybe.

@@ssjdennis6058 It’s all this sort of prescriptive thing to ensure you have come with the “correct” combination of skills and resistances. Keep at it, I have faith. If you have any more trouble m, let me know and I can help bounce some ideas / persona builds.

@@TheTrueYonko while she is one of my fav secret bosses of all time, I sympathize with people who get frustrated when they get all the way to her and need to then interact with mechanics they need to either look up online or use a huge investment of time to trial and error out.

@@Plexicraft Then look them up, no point in complaining about a hard boss with have tricks and gimmicks. She's always been like that whether you're talking about Reload or FES.

@@TheTrueYonko I’d say the point is so game designers improve future boss designs so they don’t rely so much on trial and error. SquareEnix took criticism to heart and removed the way the Zodiac Spear worked in FF12. I’m not saying Elizabeth needs to be changed but future uber bosses could have more clues or tells in game that would allow the players to figure out the “rules” of the fight without needing to resort to trial and error / look it up.

They alredy had better designed duper bosses... Margaret, the twins , yu and makoto were strong but followed the rules of the game...Elizabeth has "hidden weaknesses " that dont produce knockdown and punishes you if you have any inmunities insted of just trying another type of attack with an attack that literally will kill you, fully heals herself (it was bs when Lucifer did it in smt is bs here)​...and ontop of everything i a turn limited fight... And while all previous persona uber bosses fights test your damage imput and turns...its not to this degreethe fight demands you get all social links to have a resistant persona who doesnt start her picie maching@@Plexicraft

@@drackestalentorgen166 Yeah I figure the discrepancy is that original P3 Elizabeth is quite prescriptive and they didn't want to change too much for Reload... despite me hoping they would have put better clues in game.

@@DireWolf1412 You can but you don’t want to it out during the turns when she uses dark or light attacks is all.

@@RookePlays Hmm potentially the most specific definition!

@@gappyhigashikata_e Wow, well said! Thanks for putting so much effort into detailing your thoughts, especially the examples which make it helpful to envision! I would love to have social links, especially romance choices, referenced in the story. I need to check out the Nyarl vid, thanks for the suggestion. I’ve been thinking recently about how relationships evolve in Persona games and looking back to Chrono Trigger and the iconic courtroom scene, people’s perception of you hinge on choices you didn’t even know you were making eg: (when bumping into Marle and knocking her over) picking up the locket to give it back or “checking on her” first. What really makes this work for me is that the impact of the choice isn’t immediately called out in a “Marle will remember that / +5 affinity with Marle” sort of thing. Once the impact is shown (later in the game) it makes you wonder what other choices you’re making which helps immerse you into the world and potentially play the game differently than you normally would (maybe running into peoples houses and opening their treasure chests could come back to haunt you!). That’s all to say, I’d enjoy seeing relationship options opening up only if certain secret choices were made. Sure it’s a choice to study hard and raise your academics to a certain level but I’d like to think characters don’t just automatically become attracted to the MC because they reached a high level in a social link. I think it’d be neat if character appreciated your consistency in terms of how often you feed a cat on your way home, or with party members: going to train in the dungeon frequently, bringing different characters along while you’re in the dungeon, healing them or letting them rest, etc.

@@Skyarrow99 haha my wife thinks so too!

@@Theonewhoconsumesbeans haha that’s pretty concise! Got any favs?

@@Plexicraft og symphony of the night unbeatable Was never a metroid player tbh

@@Theonewhoconsumesbeans great choice, I gotta go with Hollow Knight as my fav but Circle of the Moon got me into the genre and SotN is legendary :)

You can download the demo here: plexicrafts.itch.io/relicsofaurelia Would love to know what you think of it :)

I love the variety it brings to playthroughs. Fighting Anjanth with bone gear is pretty intense! Do have a particular favorite sequence break?

@@Marcara081 That’s an interesting take. Do the upgrades in X allow you to access areas you couldn’t get to without those upgrades? Edit: grammar / syntax

Absolutely! The Pegasus Boots and Roc’s Feather in Link’s Awakening are good examples of what I like to call “complementary utility upgrades” as well since using them together expands the functionality of both meaning new gates can be “unlocked” once you have both and use them together :D

@@anjacup1422 I get what you mean. What Castlevania added tends to be optional elements in the genre as well rather than foundational ones.

@@danyerug6985 Once I get back to my pc later tonight I’ll make that list and update ya :)

@@danyerug6985 Games that appeared in this video Hollow Knight - PC Islets - PC Monster Hunter World - PC Guacamole - PC Toki Tori 2 - PC La Mulana - PC Blasphemous - PC Dark Souls - PC Control - PC Dead Space - PC Dragon Quest 11 S Echoes of an Elusive Age - PC Metroid Prime - GC Metroid Zero Mission - GBA Metroid Fusion - GBA Castlevania: Aria of Sorrow - GBA Castlevania: Harmony of Dissonance - GBA Castlevania: Circle of the Moon - GBA Pokémon Leaf Green - GBA Jet Force Gemini - N64 Dragon Warrior 3 - GBC The Legend of Zelda: Link’s Awakening DX - GBC Super Metroid - SNES Metroid 2: Samus Returns - GB Kirby’s Dreamland 2 - GB Metroid - NES Games that were mentioned but did not appear in this video: Outer Wilds Tunic Animal Well The Witness Ori and the Blind Forest Axiom Verge Death’s Gambit Bloodstained Pokémon Red (I believe I got everything and while time stamping it all would take quite a bit longer, if there’s something neat you saw that you can’t pin down, let me know the time you saw it and I can confirm it for you :D )

@@almeidachannel7121 Hey thanks so much, I really appreciate it :)

@@ZBR_ProXP haha fair, but then there’s no room for Prime :/

@@Plexicraft Prime would be a first person action adventure. Like Turok and Powerslave.

@@ZBR_ProXP whoa, haven’t thought about a a Turok in a while! Cerebral Bore was such a sick weapon :)

@@johanandersson8646 That’s so nice of you to say, thank you :) I’m floored by not only how interesting and deep the discussions I’ve been having here have gotten, but also how respectful everyone has been about differing perspectives on the genre :)

@@Plexicraft Yeah absolutely! A thing you've brought up that I feel often gets forgotten is focus. How much of a game is focused on the metroidvania aspects. Some games have a few select moments of metroidvania elements and gets tagged as a metroidvania but when playing it, it doesn't scratch that itch. But then again, you have a game like the first Blasphemous that actually did scratch that itch for me... 14:20 great design! And great video to!

@@johanandersson8646 Thanks, I really appreciate it! I’m glad you like the video and the design. I had a blast making this video :D And yeah, I like that the definition has specific aspects that help really explain the foundations of the genre but also has that more subjective “focus” bit which I guess helps leave room for surprises.

@@nahte123456 I honestly love that term too but just saying “Metroidvania” just feels better to me for some reason.

@@Orange_Swirl I love seeing a TV Tropes reference out in the wild! Platforming does seems to be quite important to the most in terms of what really feels like a metroidvania which makes sense. For a while, I figured any game that had utility gated areas could count but after looking into it all a bit more, I found some examples that didn’t gel for me. Link’s Awakening always seems to float by unscathed though and despite bringing this up with others quite frequently, rarely did anyone agree. …so I figured I’d spend a few months putting a video together to showcase my position haha

​@Plexicraft I'm beginning to think we're going to need to create a sub-subgenre of video games that have Metroidvania elements but are not Metroidvanias. Problem is, since a lot of us can't even agree on what a Metroidvania is, that makes things a mess.

​​@@PlexicraftOkay, so I am back yet again, this time I want to say this: I personally don't think platforming is necessary for a Metroidvania. What I do think is necessary for a Metroidvania is any form of action-oriented gameplay. So basically, any form of gameplay that is in real-time, requires at least some dexterity (hand-eye coordination, reacton time).

@@Orange_Swirl Ah, I can see where you’re coming from here. I’m working on a turn based game that doesn’t make the cut for this definition (but oddly enough does for the definition in the video) so I’m biased but I totally understand why and I think a majority of Metroidvania fans would agree with you :)

​@@PlexicraftHonestly, when it comes to game development, don't pigeonhole yourself to genre conventions. I'd probably still play and enjoy it anyway depending on how you execute it.

@@chozochiefxiii3298 Good points about how “guided” even Super Metroid is! The way I think about it, it’s relative: Super Metroid is more linear than say Zelda Breath of the Wild but is less linear than let’s say Super Mario Bros. In regards to non-linearity, I’d argue most Metroidvanias fall somewhere in between Super Metroid and Super Mario Bros. Games like Symphony of the Night would be closer to the non-linear example and Metroid Fusion would be closer to the more linear example (imo). Would you agree?

@Plexicraft The way you describe it, yes. I do agree. It's just strange to me seeing super metroid propped up as this example of non linearity. When most of the critical path items are obtained in a linear order for a blind first playthrough. Sure, you can enter Maridia early, but you won't make it very far. Lower norfair itself is a linear straight shot with its critical upgrade placed right in front of the player. Super Metroid may have been completely non-linear if the shortcuts between brinstar, maridia, and norfair weren't gated off, but I understand why they were. Honestly, it's an interesting discussion for me personally because I have a bias against 95% of the genre since it leans towards the more Vania side than the Metroid side. What makes Metroid so fun for me is exploring alien worlds, the soundtracks are absolutely mesmerizing to listen to, and the feeling of complete power by the endgame, which ties into the upgrades. These upgrades are the most satisfying I've ever used in the few games in the genre I've played. Beams that rip through walls and enemies, jumps that explode your enemies, suits that let you walk through lava, and upgrades that basically let you fly. The power trip is unlike any other in the genre for me. The more Vania side of the upgrades are more dull to me, double jump, slide, dash, having a wall jump or cling be an upgrade. They feel basic in terms of playing the actual game. Also, I'm not a fan of soulsesque mechanics like death runs and stamina bars being thrown in every game. Rpg systems like loot and levels also are a big turn for me because it feels like the game wants me to grind. A lot of metroidvania go for the gothic dark fantasy setting rather than strange alien worlds. All personal preferences, and it is an issue I'm working on so I can enjoy more games in the genre other than metroid and symphony of the night (which is an outlier for how overpowered you can get). The more they try to "balance" a metroidvania the less fun it is for me because the whole point of getting all these upgrades is to continously get stronger until you're an overpowered monster tearing through the world you were slowly creeping through before. All personal preferences I know, most metroidvania fans like the more Vania side. Just makes me wish we got more "pure metroid clones."" I've started my journey into other metroidvania with guacamelee, and while it does have the personal grievances I described above, I think I'm almost at the end and I'm about 4-5 hours in so it isn't such a drag. Although more recent metroidvania start to extend beyond their welcome imo when they get to around 15-20 hours or more for a first playthrough I think it's too much personally, especially if the world isn't interesting and the upgrades don't feel satisfying. Again, personal grievances, it's why I couldn't get into hollow knight when I tried it twice.

@@chozochiefxiii3298 Really appreciate you going into such detail! Discussions like these are why I make the types of videos I make :D It's interesting you point out the aspect of player character growth as such an important factor for what will scratch your "Metroidvania itch". Especially how the more unique that upgrades are affecting your enjoyment. It's an interesting perspective and one that makes me wrack my brain for examples of what might scratch that particular itch... have you tried / did you enjoy: Carrion, Axiom Verge, or maybe F.I.S.T. Forged In Shadow Torch (which I believe is free to keep from the Epic Games Store for the next few days)? I tend to prefer Metroid-Likes because of how spiky their power progression is. When you get something, you really feel it (when compared to the steady stat growth of consistent level ups and replaceable equipment of more Castlevania-Like games. How far did you get in Hollow Knight? I felt kind of bored the first 2 hours I played it but once I got a few upgrades, the momentum was infectious and now the game is in my top 3 favorites of all time and most days it's sitting in the top slot :)

@Plexicraft Thank you for the response. I did play Hollow Knight for about 2 hours and just didn't click (same with bioshock, but that's neither here nor there). Axiom verge I did put more time into but it was too "metroid 1" for my taste, looking to give it another shot, carrion I think I played on a whim, got stuck and quit but that game is really cool and I'm going to try it again. I find myself being way too picky on what game to revisit or try and get into because at the same time I'm trying to get into arcade racers, rts, more retro style games (shmup,run and gun, beat em up). Just want to have more options than replaying metroid games with randomizers forever. As much as I love metroid, I do want to explore other games. Metroid franchise (prime 1 and 2 included) have become crutch comfort games that I default to when I can't think of anything to play while trying to curb my youtube addiction. Sadly, no, I haven't played F.I.S.T. either. I didn't think I'd come across someone else who doesn't like the more rpg systems in the more Vania side of the genre.

@@chozochiefxiii3298 Hey, no problem at all. Like I said, this is why I spend the time to put videos together. I urge you to keep making progress in Hollow Knight! It definitely has a slow start and I think it resonates with every differently, but there is just so much there to love (especially aspects I think that you’d really enjoy after briefly talking it over) that I wouldn’t want anyone to miss out on… especially if they love the Metroid series. Have you played any of the Zelda games? I love the systems of Majora’s Mask and Link’s Awakening but if you’re looking for true openness, not much will compare to Breath of the Wild. Maybe Elden Ring would… I’m not sure. I’ve beaten both but they feel so different to me so they’re hard to compare in terms of openness. I’d argue BotW feels more open due to fewer places feeling like you’re in constant danger haha

@@ZILtoid1991 Haha I’m glad you clarified because meeting (or sequence break skipping!) Death in Symphony of the Night and Samus’s loot falling down the drain in Prime are what immediately came to mind. Can you give some examples of the other type of downgrades?

Nice, you made the soundtrack for this one? It looks and sounds pretty rad. Tons of Castlevania vibes! (That walk cycle brings me back haha)

@@Plexicraft yessir! Thank you. We are the creators of the Castlevania The Lecarde Chronicles games, and Wallachia Reign of Dracula. Chronicles of the Wolf features guest appearances from former Castlevania creators such as Robert Belgrade (Alucard from sotn) guest music from Oscar Araujo (Lords of Shadow) and more tba! It will have tons of Easter eggs to offer CV fans! Hope you give it a try when it comes out!

@@jeffreymontoya9933 Looks pretty sweet, would you say it’s more similar to something like Castlevania 4 or Symphony of the Night?

@@hijster479 All I’m hearing is: Go spend dozens of hours farming Mephisto for “research”… which I would do in a heartbeat haha Goodness, action RPG is quite broad… when I think of it, what immediately comes to mind is Diablo 2 and Path of Exile but then there’s also Dark Souls and non-turn based JRPGs… Definitely could use some “research”…

@@Jaster.Lennon based

Interesting, does this leave room for Metroid Prime? I’m not fully clear on your second aspect.

@@Plexicraft Once things go 3D or even top down, from my perspective, they cease to be "Metroid-vania" style, and take on a demonstrably different aspect of gameplay. To me, this is obvious, but to others, basically everything is "Metroid-vania" if there are places, doors, or heights you can't visit until you explore, find something, buy items, or level up. If this were the case, then even "Might & Magic IV & V" (Clouds of Xeen and Darkside of Xeen) would be Metroidvania-esque. And that doesn't make sense. :) Well... not to me.

@@Novastar.SaberCombat I can certainly respect that take. It’s neat that the genre name evokes different feelings to so many people. Sure maybe some games may not exactly fit but it’s great to have them as curiosities to check out if you’re in the mood for something slightly different :)

@@marcoasturias8520 Hmm, I love how concise this is in terms of word count but including games like Sable and A Short Hike but leaving out games like Link’s Awakening seems odd to me. What do you think?

@@Plexicraft pretty sure there's platforms in Sable and Link's Awakening!

@@marcoasturias8520 See, I think it’s kinda funny to point out that there’s platforming in Link’s Awakening but I don’t know if I could call it a platformer with a straight face… As for Sable and A Short Hike, I honestly should have thought of different examples because thinking it through now, the collectibles in A Short Hike are essentially a utility upgrade! So that clears… And I haven’t played enough of Sable to confirm if it has utility upgrades. If it does, I’m all good there, but without them, I feel like the inclusion of platformjng isn’t enough to scratch my metroidvania itch. For example, there is more (maybe not as required but optional) platforming potential in a game like Skyrim than there is in Link’s Awakening. I wouldn’t call Skyrim a metroidvania… but maybe “Open World Game Focused on Platforming” would be much closer… but then how to we define Open World? Do games with hubs count? If Metroid Prime 3 is a Metroidvania by that definition, then so is Mario 64 right? This one’s interesting haha

So is Terraria a Metroidvania?

@@Orange_Swirl I haven’t played enough of it to tell honestly. Does it have utility gates / upgrades?

@@StrutTower Our numbers are rising!

I definitely prefer 2D metroidvanias, however metriod prime exists

@@jdarokhajiit9153 Makes sense to me, I love Prime but 2D metroidvanias do have their own distinct feel.

While I've made a similar argument as a thought exercise (in this comment section actually!) I'm not very absolute about it. Especially since language grows and evolves and I think the ship has sailed long ago. :)

But language evolves and grows and other ships can sail, it all depends on single users and their will to convey correct informations.

@@mauroaltieri8586 I suppose the question is, why this hill right? I see it as something that could be technically correct but... Lets say a significant amount of people of change their mind and agree Metroidvanias should be called Metroid-Likes. Where do we go from there? What would it take to make that happen? Is that amount of effort best spent on this task? Or is there a better way to progress the discussion on a topic we love? I don't have the answer but that's kinda how I got to my stance :)

Effort? Using the correct definition instead of the wrong one? 😶

@@mauroaltieri8586 I’m referring to the effort required to convince everyone who currently calls them Metroidvanias to instead call them Metroid-Likes.

And yes you can make a video about this and I would definitely watch it lmao

Interesting, I get where you’re coming from but it’s too limiting for my liking to leave out games like Metroid Prime.

@@Plexicraft And I can see where you're coming from, but by expanding the term to being a subgenre of games as a whole rather than just of 2D platformers, either nearly every game can be considered a Metroidvania or a lot of games that would otherwise be considered Metroidvanias wouldn't be. I've seen people say that Banjo-Tooie is a Metroidvania and Cave Story isn't, for example. Heck, your definition could disqualify the first Metroid game, as the game is entirely open with no guiding hand pointing you to any sort of dev-intended direction, therefore voiding the "guided nonlinearity" descriptor.

@@fishactivation5087 That’s a great point and it makes me think of a couple things: 1. What amount and what type of guidance is acceptable to earn the aspects of “guided” in the definition? In other words, do we need a map or mission screen to give us hints to tell us where to go for it to be considered “guided”? Or does the fact that we can’t go right until we go left to get the morph ball as our first utility upgrade a valid form of “guidance”? (As well as each bottleneck thereafter) I’d argue it is and imo even preferable to most alternative forms of guidance. 2. Let’s say NEStroid doesn’t meet the definition of “guided”: are we in a better or worse place excluding it to include the Primes and other 3D games with guided nonlinear utility gated exploration?

Oh, and this is largely why UNSIGHTED feels like a Metroidvania to me even though it's superficially/aesthetically more similar to Zelda.

@@JediMB I need to get around to checking out Unsighted. Do you recommend it?

@@JediMB I definitely get what you mean about the world layout but there’s always the outlier right? Metroid Prime 3 with its planet hopping makes it feel more Zelda-esque to me!

@@Plexicraft I adore the game and got a physical copy for the Switch after finishing it on PC. The game has a system where every friendly character in the game is on a time limit, and it's up the player to distribute (or hoard) resources that grant extra time. Personally I found that immensely stressful, so I did what the game advised for that situation and disabled the system. Next time I play it, the plan is to first re-familiarize myself with the systems and environments during one playthrough, and then give the time-limited version of the game a proper go afterwards.

@@Plexicraft I suspect I'll agree with you about Metroid Prime 3. I really only played it once when it was new, so it's been 17 years [internal screaming], but the plan is to replay the entire trilogy before 4 comes out.

@@hoagieimpact9189 If I recall, Koji Igarashi said an inspiration for Symphony of the Night was Zelda so…

@@billlange9408 You’re the first person I’ve seen voice what I’ve been thinking about the name genre split and credit! While I love almost every “Igavania”, I don’t believe they bring anything significant to the definition that the Metroid series didn’t already bring long before. The level ups, armor, and changeable attack patterns via weapons that can be found equipped and switched are all awesome additions imo that make the game feel like its own thing… but none of of it really added anything to what became the most common definition of the genre. I agree with the sequence breaking aspect being core to the definition. It’s my way of ticking the “non-linear” box. And Super Metroid vs FF7 is such a golden age problem to have, wow I didn’t even think of that haha

@@AdamTheGameBoy That’s a really great addition to the definition. Games without some form of movement upgrade often do feel like they’re in a distinctly different camp than those that have them. And definitely love me some Ys 8, still making my way through it but every time I go out to battle I just get distracted and vibe to the music haha

@@plentyofpaper Love it so much! When I first checked out Toki Tori 2 I was floored to see how few reviews it had on Steam compared to other Metroidbrainias like Tunic and Outer Wilds. Toki Tori 2 is so tightly designed and underrated it doesn’t seem fair! While I consider it to be a ‘brainia rather than a ‘vania, I often wonder how much better it could have sold if it was marketed as a ‘metroidvania where upgrades you find are knowledge or information based’. It’s one of the earliest Metroidbrainias so I feel it deserves much more credit than it gets. I’m so glad Game Makers Toolkit brought some attention to it!

@@Plexicraft Metroidbrania is a term I haven't heard before today. Listening to the other games you mentioned in the genre, The Witness and Outer Wilds (I haven't played Tunic yet) I feel Toki Tori 2 adheres to the ""guided" concept much more than the others. The Witness and Outer Wilds were basically sandbox open world games with some isolated gated off areas. Once you had the required knowledge, you could open that knowledge gate, and didn't really do anything else with that information. Basically, red key, red door. Toki Tori 2 felt like it had more of the essence of Metroidvania than the others. Once you figure out how different creatures respond to the presence or absence of light, you use that knowledge in a variety of locations throughout the game, and continue to use that knowledge to actively solve puzzles. That feels less like a red key red door, and more like a grapple beam.

@@plentyofpaper Fair points! I agree about the guided aspect in Toki Tori 2; I feel most games pale in comparison to how masterfully Toki Tori 2 provides an intricate guided world with its quantity of quality knowledge upgrades and knowledge gates.

@@malcolmmcwhirter3357 I can’t wait to play this one; I’ve heard nothing but good things! The jumping puzzles I’ve seen look really fun as well :) Hollow Knight was the last time I really felt lost and maybe in over my head in a metroidvania. Does Prince of Persia have quite a bit of non-linearity?

@@PlexicraftYes, I think there isn’t a defined order you need to acquire abilities. You have access to most of the map, but you will find yourself in some areas that seem a bit over your head. The best feature is that you can take screen shots that are marked on your map so you can take note obstacles or pathways you can’t access yet, and know where to go back to when you get the appropriate ability.

@@malcolmmcwhirter3357 I heard about that screenshot feature! Sounds really innovative, did you find yourself using it frequently?

@@PlexicraftI didn’t use it a ton, possibly because of my experience with Metroidvania’s I’ve developed decent recall, but you do have a limited number of screen shots, so I didn’t use all of them.

@@rikardandersson5582 Pithy!

@@Neutrico88 Hmm makes me think, by “slightly more important” do you mean more so than just how I covered it in the video or more so than another specific aspect of the definition given at the start? If the former, I definitely can see where you’re coming from. There is a clear distinction between how (for lack of a better phrase) “true” to the genre games that have platforming and those that don’t feel and I may have undersold that. If the latter, I’m curious to know which aspect :)

@@Plexicraft It's kind of difficult to explain, but basically the feeling and roots of platforming are present in the genre, and it may even be even more important depending on the game like Metroid, and maybe Castlevania (Inverted Castle my Nightmare) This is understandable because well, it was born from two franchises with a great emphasis on platforming, But anyway, I think platforming is underrated by the metroidvania community, I think it's a part that should at least be in a Metroidvania, literally the name of the genre has Vania, from a franchise that before sotn, was Primarily Platforming (and Very Hard)

@@Neutrico88 I can respect that. Are there any games you often see called Metroidvanias that you feel don’t meet the criteria due to a lack of focus on platforming?

I'm kind of poor so the games that potentially don't have the metroidvania feel I simply don't have access to, Third World Country Issues lmao I think there must be one for PlayStation 2, which is exactly what you said, I don't know if people consider "lament of innocence" a metroidvania, but I played curse a while ago and there's still a bit of platforming, It's not much because I think Koji Igarashi wasn't confident with 3D ​@@Plexicraft

@@Neutrico88 I haven’t played it myself but I heard Pseudoragalia is an excellent 3D Metroidvania with stellar platforming. It’s an indie title as well, so that might be one you’d enjoy if you haven’t checked it out already :)

@@DanielBonaker Thanks a lot! And regarding the definition and the discussion around it, I absolutely agree. What would you say is missing from the definition? I’m actually re-thinking my position on utility power ups vs upgrades. I figure there’s no real reason why they couldn’t work as the sole type of “utility key” in a Metroidvania game, I just haven’t seen it done.