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team diffs in ow 2 not only feel much much worse but the happen crazy more often

defintly not peak ow. early dive with zen lucio for support wad peak imo

I love that there is a direct line from brig release to OW2

High quality footage and commentary. Thank you

I personally really like 5v5 (ow2 player), the synergies in the 6v6 test where 'cool', but if you weren't playing a tank that synergized well with your other tank, it just feels like shit. In OW2, you mostly pick tanks around the map, and in OW1, you pick tanks around what the other tanks picks, really reducing your individual agency. Also, angles feel SO crowded in the play test, everything is always contested, and it essentially becomes a sustain game of who deals the most pressure while taking the least amount of resources (which is how you play tank regardless of 5v5 or 6v6), but, in 5v5, you can take angles and stage WAY easier on tank OR dps, giving you playmaking ability and pressure spikes. Also, it might just be me, but 6v6 just feels a little less competitive and intense since mistakes don't get punished as hard

When are we gonna stop pretending that 6v6= OW1 Also 6v6 is better but 5v5 didn’t ruin Overwatch. Season 9 did.

When are we gonna stop pretending that 6v6= OW1 Also 6v6 is better but 5v5 didn’t ruin Overwatch. Season 9 did.

Ty truly for the thought out view on this subject. Instead of the normal scream and assume there is a silver bullet in 6vs6 as if it had no flaws. Secret hot take: I pick Echo mainly so every game I can combo with the tank as they push in with the enemy tank abilities. It feels amazing to copy Zarya and have a Rein on your team. It makes for one majorly OP situation. Shhhh..... don't let people know you can do it even in 5vs5.

im like 90% sure 2 tanks was better than 3 and the whole playerbase had a massive skill issue

A few things to talk about with your analysis here, speaking as someone who was mid masters during GOATs 1. Bash also dealt 50 damage with a wider angle (IE, MUCH more generous hitbox), AND IT HAD A FIVE SECOND COOLDOWN 2. Rally was also BUGGED so it blocked MORE damage than it should have, so every teammate with rally armor had that armor increase in effectiveness by basically 10-20% 3. Rally only gave Brig a speed boost, not the team 4. Even if you broke through that absurd 600 health shield, it was only on cooldown for THREE SECONDS. Oh yeah, and BASHING DOOM PUNCH AND REIN PIN WOULD STUN THE OTHER TARGET AND LEAVE YOU TOTALLY FINE! 5. I can't tell if it was intended to be mentioned cause I'm stupid, but rally armor was also INFINITE in duration, meaning it only went away when broken 6. Inspire also didn't have a healing penalty for Brig herself, so she was healing 100% of her passive healing for herself if it had to be harder to kill her 7. Bash also stunned for almost a FULL second and rally was CHEAPER 8. Shield health also regenerated faster btw there's just- there's so much

I was one of the few who loved the goats meta. Yes it was stale but it felt like chess. You stared down you opponent, waiting for them to fuck up and make a mistake. That was the winning condition. Playing it was fun, raw and intense. Alas this wasn't meant to last. I loved brig. She was too overpowered though, but it was the one time us healers can scream back at the dps cunts. Healing has always sucked in ow, you feel helpless and it's thankless. But in goats, i had a blast.

YES WHAT A GOOD OPINION

disagree heavily

Reminiscing about release Brig gave me some serious vietnam flashbacks. In all seriousness, I've only recently been able to play OW2 after not being able to since its launch, and I must say that 6v6 was better. Tank is my preferred role (unfortunately), and it feels like I have way too much responsibility in the team- Zen especially fucks me up, because his discord orb feels way more impactful. I think 6v6 is overall healthier, and in order to prevent stuff like Double Shields, maybe they could introduce a negative passive- if there's 2 shield tanks, their shields' health is only 60-75% of their full health; that way the team can still have two shields, but they are no longer impenetrable walls.

Your like a more concise Freedo.

There are plenty of ways they could have ended goats, and the biggest way was insipre. Inspire is so ridiculously over powered that even adter role lock brig still was the best (or maybe second best to baptise) do you know the only time we had enough healing in overwatch to support 3 tanks was? Thats right! When anna nade healed like 100 hp on a 10 second cooldown. And all 3 tanks had ways to heal or take large amounts of damage while waiting for heals (vape, rein sheild, zaryas sheilds and bubbles) so yes goats woiluldve been counterable if big was actually nerfed properly, but all you know about are things that really didnt make her broken. (Rally, 600 hp sheild, health pack sheilds, etc)

[ edit: if you value your time just read the tldr/summary below. it’s 4am i rambled a lot] i love how you pointed out just how much GOATS showed you how to “look at” overwatch. i think that was a common thread for a lot of the playerbase. after GOATS, it was very noticeable just how much more “generally more coordinated” overwatch players were. When OW2 was coming out, a lot of creators were giving their long form retrospect on the game. A common thread there was how they would describe the T500 of OW1 Seasons 1-5 as something that was is more akin to Plat or low Diamond in the ending days of OW1. the playerbase learned a lot from the trickle down of knowledge. whether it was done the right way or not remained to be seen, but they were learning concepts 😂🤣 GOATS is my favorite time in the game for a lot of the same reasons. Back in 2020 it was a lot easier to play with a group of people because everyone was home and online. Playing coordinated matches was my peak enjoyment of the game. That said, I still like 5v5 more. My work schedule forces me to be a solo player, that plays long sessions during off-peak hours. Having individual agency is the most important thing to me because i play alone. I know why I like what I like, I know why the 6v6 crowd likes what they like. At the end of the day, it’s just trades. perfect summation. TLDR/Summary-- - Goats made playerbase more coordinated & influenced the playerbase into two groups. Group A: prefers big teamwork -6v6 Group B: prefer the ability to have greater individual impact within teamwork (5v5) - i liked big picture teamwork & enjoyed goats meta, irl job makes it hard to play in groups. i now prefer individual impact over teamwork. - conclusion: imo, 5v5 is the solo player’s dream. majority of players are solo queues. if you look at it like that, it makes sense that blizz has changed the game the way they have.

I think 6v6 with the overwatch 2 character design would help a lot, would alleviate how much team play is needed to play it. Like rein should be able to keep his pin cancel since it's qol but losing a fire strike is fine and zarya can keep her 2 bubbles. Keep the player choice, I think most people liked the tank combinations and just want those cause as you said in plat most people weren't pulling off goats, most didn't have the coordination for it

In the response from being team diff 6v6. you are getting rolled: "Great just 40 more seconds till the next game." You are the ones rolling:"I'M APPLYING FOR OWL RIGHT NOW"

the propper joke got me x) great vid !

Fantastic take honestly, and such a well produced video! 😊❤ I'm a 6v6 skeptic myself, because I joined in 2018, and my experiences of 6v6 were generally not positive ones. Lots banging heads against a brick wall trying to get through a choke and such making it feel like whatever you do doesn't actually make much difference. For me, 5v5 was (and still is) a breath of fresh air. Seeing the arguments on both sides over the years though, I can certainly see why people loved 6v6 - when your team WAS coordinated, there is nothing that compares to it in 5v5. At least in pub games though, that was a pretty rare thing at least in my personaly experience, which is why 5v5 feels so much better day-to-day for me. With all that said, I have ZERO issue with them testing it out, and I think they SHOULD bring back 6v6 as a seperate (but equal) mode, so that people who prefer that can enjoy that. I wouldn't want to be forced to play 6v6 as someone who prefers to play 5v5. But by that same token, I don't think it's reasonable for us to expect people who prefer 6v6 to be forced to play 5v5 with us. Why have OR, when you can have AND? "But it will split the player base!" <-- OW1 did just fine, and OW2's player base is several times larger. Even a split playerbase will still be bigger per section that OW1 had in total, so this really isn't the issue people think it is. "But queue times!" <-- Queue times are more of an issue of role lock than 6v6, although 6v6 does of course exacerbate the issue because the extra role is the tank which is the least played. But guess what the devs have also been playing with? Changes to role lock, and the "min 1, max 3" format will relax the role lock requirement a bit without getting rid of it entirely, so that would actually cancel out the advantage 5v5 has in this area. In fact it would actually have better queue times compared to 5v5 full role lock, because you can potentially have an extra DPS on your team in a 1-3-2 comp, so the DPS role will actually find it 50% easier to get games. So yeh, I have no isse with them doing this as an extra mode, and let the community decide as individuals where they want to spend their time. Heck, if the new encarnation of 6v6 brings back some of the teamwork people enjoyed, but ALSO manages to keeps a good chunk of the agency people like myself prefer ("threading the needle", so to speak), then players like me may even enjoy it too! The devs have the huge privilage of having a game that has been through both extremes, and they have all the data and lessons they can tap into, and the opportunity therefore to make something truly incredible that is better than current 5v5, and ALSO BETTER than the OLD 6v6. So yeh, I totally agree with you that Overwatch's best days are in front of it, not behind it 😊❤

The devs absolutely deserve the ridicule and 6v6 absolutely is the answer

Honestly as someone who plays alot of games that just never get patched and the meta is just what it is the hate for stale metas always baffle me. Something has to be the best so if what is the best is fun keep it that way let's not risk ruining it. In my mind if: A. The mechanics are balanced B. The king or queen of the game (top 1) encourages the game to be played in an postive way. Then the game is a viable competitive experience. This is for instance why folks hated Gotas far more than something like dive because the armour system was mechanically broken and the queen (brig) basically musculed DPS out of the game. Overwatch 2 as a whole very much suffers from the same problems as goats but way worse because of how mechanically broken gigatanks and counterswapping is and most of the top 1's or big meta drivers of the game either perpetuate riskless gameplay (Kiri, Bap, Orisa) or boil the game down into dynamics with very little or binary counterplay (Widow, Mauga). So the reason i perfer 6v6 is that at the very least it has produced multiple versions of the game that meet thoes 2 qualifers to me whilst OW2 simply has not depsite having better balalnce and understnading of what the game is. I guess I just like it more when overwatch was a more swingly polarised game because it led to interesting anti meta compositions and team vs team dynamics when the game was looser and less refined and I love when actual long term player discovery influences meta changes as opposed to artifcial balance patches, perhaps i'm just a contrarian idk. Kinda a rambly directionless mess of a post but that's sorta where my headspace is at.

This guy has the best take I have probably ever heard. I really hate the notion that either format is going to fix everything, there is always trade offs. Great video, well done!

I have not played ow1 before, I don't know how the game felt back then. But when the king maker mode came out, the games I enjoyed the most had me with a tank duo. I just loved the synergy's between the tanks, like zar and rein or doom and ball. It felt way better than most of my ow2 games. But that's most likely because it was a new game mode. I'm very excited for the 6v6 play test as well as the moth meta ow classic event, I want to play dps doom so baaaaad. I loved watching ow1 zbra doom montages :) and awesome video!

Goats would have been a good meta if it didn’t work on every map and I will die on this hill.

Nothing relevant to 6v6 role queue surely but I’ll walk with you

great take. 5dps on OW was terrible. BUT one time, i got 5 randoms in my lobby and we picked goats. we won like 13 games in a row from mid diamond to masters. This day is the reason i still play overwatch. it feels sooo good when the teams clicks.

thinking about macro genuinely will help me ty

What gets me is people will complainin about ult centric marco brawl metas and then glaze the goats era like, i guess both can be true but u are also completely dismisive of any new macro meta. I honestly blame this on the pro overwatch production jumping on the hate train instead of explaining why team A is better than team B. Drives me insane hearing people say something is no skill, when the best players and teams are still winning. Or the team thats historically good at a simular meta is good buut nooo its all luck and rng

13:40 In what you said about people wanting the teamplay back, this could be a way for OW to legitinately dofferentiate itself from Rivals, which, (at least from what I can tell) goes really far in the direction of OW2 with solo carry potential, with crazy high damage (multiple two shot heros and flankers/dive have the burst to keep up), hyper mobility, and lack of shields letting players not really need to worry as much about dead weight on their team ad they would've in GOATS

sorry but your devs take was dog5hit same with goats take

I love this. Ty for being sane, I’ll sub okay?

I honestly agree with a lot of this video and I’m personally not very happy with the direction of the game, that’s why I stopped playing. Nothing, not even going back to 6v6, will capture this era of OW. I stopped playing as soon as OW2 came out, doesn’t mean the game is bad, it’s just different and not what I payed for.

I think most people blame the balance team for most of the problems and the OW1 dev team for the switch to 5v5. I don't think this current dev team gets most of the blame.

As a Zarya offtank main at heart, I found that i simply miss the offtank experience, and nothing could quite fill that gap, despite my experimenting. So i really want 6v6 as a permanent gamemode, and unless it dilutes the player pool too much and everyone loves it, it doesnt need to replace 5v5.

Tanks now are at least a little fun to play. It was aids to get screamed at to swap to a barrier tank to pair with the barrier tank that was already on the field. And the fact there was a second tank means tank ults couldn't have quite the impact they do now, or else staggering them back to back would be far too powerful.

The lo fi is perfect 😂❤

This was a great video man, solid takes and laughed my ass off at Brigs shield having 600 hp 😂. You deserve more subs 👏

I don’t like how ppl talk abt the team play aspect of 6v6 like it was a fair skill dimension in a game we’ve been playing with randoms for almost a decade (duoing at max) it’s like they’re fetishizing a coin toss. In 2019 i was scrimming goats 2 hours a day and swapping back to ranked for more 2, under 6v6 ranked you’d literally lose because one of their offtank or main tank were just a little more agreeable to play with marginally better cohesion than ur no mic gamer randos, this dimension of the game in ranked was NEVER a “can you team play?” it was without a shadow of a doubt a “will you team play?” Like bruv, say what you will but what i see here it’s a personality test to see who can AGREE to access the teamplay FLOOR first. The fact i was out grinding to craft a good LFT on stinky competitive discords just to BEGGIN to access and work that part of the game with no bulls** consistently says A LOT guys. My prediction is that a lot of ppl just gonna throw combo-less ults like Lebron passing to the ball to Bronny james and quit the game to protect their hair line from the stress

Really good to see new channels about ow, wish u sucess

the emerald music was a nice touch

very good vid I started the game during the first anniversary event played it for years and years had pretty much every single skin on Genji including event legendries when I stopped i was missing only 1 legendary Genji skin from an event and I got them all without buying loot boxes I miss being able to earn everything then when echo came out and updates slowed down I took a break and then overwatch 2 happened and I was nothing but disappointed only interesting part of that game was the new default skins and the idea of PvE the rest was just a ruined game plus I didn't have a pc at the time and didn't remember my battle net account and realized they were charging basically the price of overwatch 1 for like 2 skins I used to own for free so I dropped that garbage excuse for a sequel but would always check in on the game through youtube to see how its doing now we have Marvel rivals an actual good hero shooter to take over I always wished we could get an overwatch like with marvel but gave up on the idea a long time ago but now its here and its great

Honestly, a really fresh opinion with a lot of hope in the whole 6v6 debacle. Thanks for the video!

Goated video.

ayo hit me up when u get ur veterans discount i want mine too

i feel like i got a systematic shock every time a meme from 2018 appeared

The best take on OW I’ve seen. You said it best. There are no fixes, only trades. And people think emotionally. I don’t think 6v6 will balance the game, and it’ll probably create problems. But maybe it’s for the better because OW was a better game when it was a broken mess.

your last point is objectively wrong. OW2 has more steam rolls than OW1 ever did. Even the devs acknowledged that. Why are you blatantly lying?

this video slammed. I've been feeling a similar level of reactionism in the game i play, and this was very sobering and refreshing. excellent all around, definitely earned a sub. please keep making more of this style.