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Constitution as a core stat is so weird. It is the only stat that has zero offensive capability. It is purely defensive and passive.

It seems like a fair amount of this could come down to someone's general opinion of Shadow of the Erdtree. I enjoyed it well enough but where here you're commenting a lot on the scale of the dlc compared to other games, while playing I was thinking about it compared to base Elden Ring in scale and regularly felt it was inadequate. The finger valleys and the abyss in particular felt very empty to me as ways to fill space on a map without having that density that made the base game's exploration so engaging to me -- regularly I was wondering if 2 years is simply too short of a development timeline to expect a "proper" expansion for a game like Elden Ring. But of course that's just my view on it, of course I wouldn't care for SotE to be a game of the year nominee because not only was it a dlc, but one that didn't fully capture the joys of the base game to me, and I'm curious if I'd be singing a different tune had the dlc blown me away. Similarly I wonder if GotY candidates in general should be expected to iterate in gameplay or whether it's just enough that it's enjoyable. I absolutely loved Metaphor and, setting aside the story, one of the main reasons was that it felt like a great iteration of SMT and Persona core mechanics. If it was literally *identical* in gameplay to another game in either series, and the presentation and story aspects were all that was new, would it make a good candidate, no matter how good those elements were? I dunno, either way great video, found your channel just recently and have been really enjoying it! Keep up the good work

If the content of the DLC is vast enough that people agree it could be its own game, I don't see why not. This discussion is only relevant for reddit.

I disagree with combining str and con. I don't want to have to roleplay as a strong character to have high hit points. I want my weak but hard-to-kill character

STR = Modifies the amount of damage your character can deal with an attack (DMG) while CON = Modifies the amount of damage you can take from an attack (HP); it's pretty straightforward. More hit points are universally useful and supremely important for character survivability but also under that blanket utility of staying alive: CON came into play anytime a SAVING THROW VS. DEATH was required also when disease, poison, paralyze, petrification or polymorph was employed against the character. Your thinking on this subject seems completely backward to me.

I think strength needs the same treatment of rework simply due to how dexterity shits all over it. Edit: Okay so in my opinion making strength and constitution a fused stat is a horrible idea because you'll just grant casters to an easily accessible means of boosting their own martial abilities. The honestly best or easiest way to fix Constitution is to make certain classes gain more from it. Issue is mutliclassing fucks this over so good luck.

I think constitution should be used in most crafting checks and i've heard of people running CON based Sorcerers.

yeah definitely look up Nimble 5e lol

Im getting strong vibes from this video that you havent played anything older than 3e, but most likely nothing older than 5e. Which isnt a bad thing, it just means youre missing half the picture of why Con currently makes no sense: Constitution was NEVER meant to be a proactive ability score to build around. WotC struggles to properly balance con as a stat because 5e wants every ability score to be proactive in the manner you describe, but Con just doesnt work that way. The whole point of Con is that it was just meant to be referenced for saving throws and hit point modifiers, especially for stuff like poison which was much more of a thing back in the day. Con iirc also referenced your "system shock" % chance to die from sudden physical trauma like petrification. But since 5e homogenizes everything, Con is basically pointless IF the rule system's goal is that every ability score NEEDS to be proactive and have a class that wants it for proactive class feature implementation. Incidentally, there's already a published 5e hack - Nimble - that combines Strength and Con, and for the most part this change has been well-received. It works for 5e and PF systems where the point is to game the hell out of character builds. IMO this is a better solution than to design a bunch of extra classes or subclasses that proactively use Con, especially considering that there already enough balancing issues as it is.

I think everybody would have liked to see more skills that use CON and STR, but combining them is straight up yet another buff to spellcasters, so i dont see how it helps much. Here is reason: atm spellcasters need to have high mental stat sure, but they need high con and decent dex as this 2 give them resilience to survive, to get AC from DEX things like mage armor and concetration saves from CON. With change to might, getting heavy armor proficency by starting fighter or other means, now you can get both platemail access and highest possible starting HP with just 1 stat. So you may think that it buffs martials but i would argue it buffs spellcasters just as much. O fear it's not one of the solutions at all. Weapon masteries where real change for the best, to help breach the gap but i would say they are not enough, giving martials even more battlefield control and out of combat utility (including with more STR and CON skills) i think is much wiser way to breach caster martial divide

Please understand before reading this: you were likely not there when this was happening, so you don't know the full situation. I am in a westmarch that once considered banning or nerfing Soul Catching Glooves because a character below level 10 managed to get them after earning the gold from the discord potluck event, winning the gold needed to craft the legendary item without materials. As a result, of that combined with a Belt of Giant Strength on a Monk, the character was able to solo content his level. Perhaps for melee characters, introduce a homebrew rule where they could regain health on a hit with melee weapons or unarmed strikes equal to their Constitution score? This could give Martials more staying power for staying in melee, and three of the four Martial classes are able to make 2 or more attacks in a single turn, so that could be 40+ health they get back with maximum Constitution.

I'm assuming you already know but just in case you don't, DC20 did remove the Con stat from their game. I haven't seen the rules, but since you're interested in game design you should take a look. Now, here's a couple things I thought about that merger as an idea: 1 - Str actually gives more AC than dex: At starting equipment, medium/heavy armor users start with 16/18 AC while dex characters typically start with 14. Str characters can max out their AC way earlier because all it takes is gold while dex characters need to max out their dex, not to mention full plate is better than 20 dex + studded leather, throw in a shield with full plate and you're way ahead on AC. Shields in particular are a great source of AC that's usually reserved for str, and a +1 shield is uncommon and stacks with a +1 armor. All of this is important because... 2 - You might actually be buffing casters with that merger. Casters need con for concentration checks, not just hp. With that merger, you're also giving them AC with the same stat because of the first point explained, so it's like for them you're merging dex and con and buffing melee damage (str weapons are better but not that it matters for casters). Clerics and druids in particular would win big with that merger. Melee bards and warlocks would also love that while everyone else could just be a dwarf to get proficiency with medium armor and win big too. A more thorough comparison between the rest of the martials would be needed but right off the bat I think this merger is good for casters, as you're just making them even less MAD. 3 - This merger would also diminish build varieties. With con as is, two characters of the same class could have different hp totals, plus you could at least make experimental builds with less con. I know these are usually not optimal but a lot of players don't go for optimal anyway, so at taking that away from them should at least be a consideration.

Caster and dex classes equally will invest in Migth for the same reason they invest in Con This is only a buff for those classes, now they can make all the str martials do and be better Giving str more uses like making Manuvers a general thing and bind them to str, buffing heavy armor (giving HA user more CA even if you invest full in Dex with a ligth armor) and nerf Dex with things like dont add in damage rolls (i dont understand why add dex in your weapons is a thing, if you want cut with a blade you need more str even if the blade is agile and make for skillful user) or make roll with other stats or withs skills a rule (example: in a chase you roll athletics or in a ambush you roll perception) Con is from definition a PASSIVE thing, literally is your inmune system and endure to enviroment, and from a logical perspective is not making sense that str and endure of a creature are the same, is not the same a short distance runner and a long distance runner, the first need MORE SPEED to do less time and the second need the endurance for sustain their speed The martial caster different is a great problem that can be solved by nerfing directly caster and spells or giving *EQUALLY GOOD* skills to martials, but that need a lot of rework, but a change of stat system practically need make from 0 the system because that is the base of how you interact with the world in game Sorry if i write some thing wrong, english is not my first or second language

This only apply for low lethality campaigns. If your dm is not a pussy and target downed pcs you don't want to be at 0 hp neither let some goblin break your concentration.

This video could not have come out at a better time, we're currently building our own TRPG and we do the thing you suggested, though we were inspired by Fabula Ultima. Something that game also does is merge Int and Wis into Insight, saving the confusion of what task to go to which.

If this is an issue with Martial vs Magic characters, you would also want to support dex based characters as well. A house rule called Martial Endurance could allow athletic based, non-magic casting characters to have their constitution stat mirror their dexterity or strength for bonuses.

stop whining

As a DM, I like asking players to add their con mod to death saves, which don't come often, but make having a high bonus seem extra valuable in their eyes. Also, casters do relay heavily on a high con for one simple reason casters seldom have to worry about: concentration checks. If you're smart with your tactics and map designs as DM, casters should never be allowed to be safe on the back lines, ranged attacks from enemies are our great equalizer.

Counter argument.... None of this actually matters 👍

This is a hilarious idea! Soon all casters will be buff and ripped. Why not just make HP scale with STR? That would really make them cry, wouldn't it?

It's an interesting idea, but I think the problem with the martial/caster divide goes much deeper. Even if a martial maxes out their strength completely, that basically seems to make them only as strong as an Olympic athlete or special forces soldier. You can see this with things like carrying capacity and jump distance. That might sound good, until you realize that casters are basically living cannons. I've seen fireballs destroy entire encounters in one turn. The same with spells like sleep and hypnotic pattern. No matter how good a martial is they're still only hitting one enemy with each attack. I think it would help to make your movement, jump height and distance, and carrying capacity based on your class instead of just your strength. Perhaps as you level up you can jump further, carry more, and move faster. This could create an issue, since monks already get movement, but I just don't think it makes sense that a fighter who spends all his time doing physical training has the same movement speed as a wizard who soends all his time with his face buried in his spellbook. We should also look to anime for inspiration. Anime characters will do things like strike the ground and shatter it, hitting every enemy within that area. This could be an ability that martials get to do AoE damage and create difficult terrain, while knocking enemies prone. Martials should be capable of feats of incredible strength, instead of being ordinary humans who lift weights. There's an image in the new phb in the fighter class section, page 93, you showed it in your video. A fighter uses their shield to protect their party member from a dragon's breath weapon. This is a super cool picture, and would be amazing to do on the battlefield. But you can't. Even if you take the shield master feat and the protection fighting style, no martial can shield his teammate from an AoE attack. But they should have that ability. The artist has a better idea of what martials should be able to do than Wizards of the Coast. That's my take on the martial/caster divide. Either nerf spells into the ground, both in terms of what they can do and the number of spell slots casters have, or buff martials to the level of anime characters.

I have to dislike the video, saying CON isn't useful for casters is just wild. Also saying CON is only usefull as extra HP when CON saves are extremely common is just wrong

One issue i see with merging strength and con is it make spellcasters better martials than martials So 1 concentration checks need constitution so casters that like casting concentration spells who already focused their spellcasting trait + constitution will now focus spellcasting trait + might That might sound fine except this makes your spellcaster tempted to play as caster martials. Because unless your class lets you use your spellcasting trait for your weapon attacks you have to rely on strength or dex. Meaning you in theory need to focus on spellcasting trait + con + str/dex Now we are reducing this to might + your spellcasting trait. Which means any caster who got a 20 at lvl 1 from rolling stat plus background can focus down feats that give them might and be godly in both concentration and martial fighting even if they had no plans to build that way before. Now yes doing this means they are not focusing on dex and ac but that is very easy to replace with a number of spells on offer.

As a Barbarian enjoyer, I'm really, really curious about how this goes in practice. Please do run that homebrew campaign/one-shot to test this around, I'd love a follow-up vid!

Have you seen nimble 5e? You might be a fan.

Con is arguably more important for casters that martials, what are you even on about

You touch on the issue that casters are SAD (single ability dependent) and so can/do invest well in Constitution, but suggesting a Might stat means revisiting that point. With this change, casters would regularly have a +2 or +3 modifier in Might - the optimal mage is now physically buff, which is pretty strange.

I went the opposite way. Instead of reducing the number of attributes, I increased it to 12.

If you think that combining STR and CON is a good idea, I advice you to check DC20 system. It is one of the many DnD "not really clones" that tries to combat some of the issues of the newest edition. Combining STR and CON is one of them... and it literally is called "Might"

Your immune system and how well you hold your liquor

CON is a lot like Endurance in Dark Souls, it is just to good not to max out

GURPS has a dedicated HP stat. The Fantasy Trip (basically proto-GURPS) has your hit points scale with STR. In a system where STR also gatekeeps the equipment you can use, DEX affects your initiative and ability to succeed at most things and INT determines what proficiencies, feats and spells you have access to and start with, why wouldn't you just play a barbarian or amazon with good STR and DEX with just enough INT to use equipment, when a mage needs to somehow balance all 3 to some degree to be effective AND not die before they can grow stronger? Oh, and casting spells costs HP. Until you're INT is high enough to upgrade your staff spell to take some of that burden, you're making yourself more vulnerable every time you do the things that make you special.

Shadow of the Demon Lord already merged Constitution and Strength as a stat, and Shadow of the Weird Wizard has completely divorced HP growth through stats completely in favor of having preset HP increases based on the 3 Paths (Classes) you choose during character development. Cannot recommend enough that 5E players give Shadow of the Demon Lord/Weird Wizard a shot if they want a 5E experience in a better built system.

D&D has a glarong problem with stats: there is a clear difference between the name of the stat, it's meaning in real life, and its effects in the game. A lot of other issues with stats stems directly from this. Why are dextrous characters more likely to take initiative? What has wisdom to do with randomly spotting hidden doors?

Designing my RPG system atm, and I did exactly that. A Body stat is entirely sufficient to run a game, without differentiating between STR and CON. I also untangled Perception from weird WIS, and made it a stat that governs ranged combat. Agility handles everything from prehensility to dextrous movement and speed. Mind and Charisma complete the mundane stat spread in my system. Since magic should be something rare and special IMO, an optional Soul stat covers all those supernatural shenanigans in a fantasy setting. If different spellcasting stats float your boat, one can tinker around with different magic flavors and the five original stats. So far I’m pretty happy with my super versatile stat system. 😉

Con is a stat because D&D provides a simplified model of physical and mental characteristics, with constitution representing the ability of a character to withstand infection, survive systemic shock, poisons, potentially debilitating strikes etc. There is no other stat in the game that expresses this, so it was needed for both immersion and gameplay. Seems obvious but this is why. it is possible that it is not balanced correctly, but this is another story.

Con is a stat to make Martials weaker. Martials need it buffed to survive and most saves targeted by Martials is Con. Meanwhile Casters target everything.

I don't think that Constitution is going away in D&D. It an artifact in the game lest over from older editions that only made sense when most people still rolled their stats. Constitution being a stat in D&D is a tradition, one of the things that you think of when you think of D&D is the 6 stats. Even Though it's an artifact than don't made that much sense anymore, it's not something that hurt the game. I don't agree that it's a problem for the martial/caster divide. If the older edition wizards had a 1d4 dit dice, just make it 1d4 again, remove concentration from constitution to Wisdom and scale back most OP spells. I think that if you made a new systems you would try to go with fewer stats, but D&D just have some tropes that make D&D D&D, the stats, the classes, levels, spell slots, the d20 ect. and I don't think that will change them - at least not anytime soon. P.S. You forgot option 3: If you want Constitution to work it used to, determine stats like people used to do it, roll the stats in order with no option to rearrange.

What's kind of sad is that in retrospect Mass Effect had an amazing narrative excuse to lean more into Renegade as a more valid option. Paragon unlocks some interesting consequences, but what if it also got some NPCs you really liked killed? And what if you needed to make some Renegade options to get better endings, because the Reapers are that much of a threat that sometimes you need to compromise your morals to get an edge?

If you merge Str and Con then how do you differentiate between bodybuilders and marathoners?

On the topic of Con and the martial caster divide, why is Con responsible for concentration checks? This basically makes Con the second most important stat for any caster while working counter to the 'squishy caster' fantasy. If we used Int instead, it would make the stat a lot more relevant. If we used unique secondary stats for every class, like wis for wizards or int for druids for example, it would make casters dependent on more different stats and encourage them to be more squishy.

Totally agree with you on every point! As a matter of fact, I am developing my own game, which started as a 5e overhaul, and at some point I've also got rid of Constitution, effectively combining it with Strength. There is a lot more nuance to that, then just deleting a stat, as you've said, and you've correctly identified the most of the problems! I'd just say, that, from experience, fixing pointbuy was the easiest part. Also, while we are on the topic of deleting attributes, I'd advise you to do the same with Wisdom, but this time divide it between the Int and Cha: everything that is tied to being observant and wise goes to Int, everything that ties to social skills goes to Cha.

For the barbarian example your assumption that a barb would invest in Dex is misguided. The barbs general role in combat is to be a damage sponge that diverts attention away from the weakest members. In fact a barbarian wants to be hit more than not to be able to sustain rage in the off chance you cannot get a hit on your turn (reckless attack for instance). The point of unarmored defense isn’t to try and get max 20 ac, it’s to be a compensation to have a generaly high ac without reliance on armor. For example a lv 5 barb may have put stats to have +5 STR +2 DEX and +4 CON. This gives an ac of 16 which is generally good for a front liners. Once the barb maxes CON though the only thing you can do is max DEX or take feats. You essentially want a good ac but not the best ac because your massive hit point pool plus damage resistance account for the need to be hit a lot. That’s why con is a main stat for barbarians. With that you can choose to invest in damage than defense so you might be able to ignore Dex entirely.

I have my own homebrew system that's only 5 stats, combining Strength and Constitution into Might... Might, Quick, Think, Sense, Charm... my system does make a lot of other changes though, like Sense governs shooting weapons to take away from Dex being way too useful. Think governs arcane magic, Sense is nature magic, and charm is divine magic... stuff like that.

Is that Gruul from MtG?

The non-physical stats are far more problematic, a player can only apply his own aptitude to a character irrespective of the characters statistics. a player with low "charisma" will struggle to play a charisma character effectively. how does one do a 20 intelligence(genius) level wizard justice if the player is "average" like most folk

I think CON is unecessary, you could move the entirity of CON to STR and the game works fine. Finally people won't dump STR at least. For saves just move CON saves to DEX or WIS maybe PC's choice. Every previous CON save is now STR save (they already shared similar saves). For starting ability scores just use point buy with 23 points instead (average would be 22.5 for 5 scores) and it works.

Seems great to combine with the suggestions to add a 7th stat like Sanity/Confidence, esp when the DM uses a lot of abilities that increase and decrease it, so it's a bit of a resource by itself. I've even seen some that let you spend it for bonuses on attacks like you would Inspiration, but the flip side is you must roll under it for Death Saves

In my home game, I add BOTH the CON and STR mods to hitpoints. This makes STR-based fighters much beefier, and makes combats take longer than 3 rounds, which makes it much more tactical and less alpha-strikey.

Maybe you should just play a different ttrpg? I mean, it's not like there aren't options. To elaborate, here's two examples that go in completely different directions: First, Tides of Numanera. Fantastic concept and I absolutely love the lore, not gonna lie about that. The game's ability scores (or pools) are boiled down to just three - Might, Speed, and Intellect. It does make some things easier, and makes a lot of the basic rolls for interacting with the environment or npcs very straightforward and simple. But it honestly loses some of the charm dnd has, because of that, because it's s broad. Next, is Shadowrun. Pretty much the inspiration for Cyberpunk 2077, but gods did they leave out a lot. Shadowrun is not quite as old as dnd is but its old, and it's in 5th edition now. It goes in the opposite direction, and has a lot of ability scores, but they're organized into three categories, like Numanera's: Body, Agility, Reaction, Strength, Willpower, Logic, Intuition, Charisma, Edge, Essence, Initiative, Magic, and Resonance. The fundamental difference with Shadowrun is it's a game about solving puzzles, *not* dungeon delving.