"I don't want to get too deep into the weeds of metallurgy" and "Pedantry Overload Alert"s. Walter, we clicked a 20+ minute TH-cam Video. That's obviously what we're here for. Take us down the bloody rabbit hole.
@@lindboknifeandtool Simply, you're right and I would tend to totally agree.. This kind of comment seems very unusual for me. I almost never mind nuance. Without remembering the video, I must've been in some kind of off mood or something because i am a detail nut. From memory (other than maybe right here lol) i've never once been in a position where i got exasperated before the other people I'm around due to excessive detail. The most drastic changes in complexion can occur with the smallest changes in makeup and esp understanding. I'm always freaked out when I notice important service personnel (eg, mds in healthcare or mechanics with my car) have impatient personalities that seem prone to overlooking things.
As a fisherman I like high carbon, softer steel. It is easy to sharpen to very sharp for preparing the fish. Fish isn't exactly hard, so it also keeps the sharpness fairly well. Needs to be taken care, clean and dry well, since it rusts very easily (blood is bad man). Just putting extra emphasis to right tools for the task at hand. Good video, thank you!
@@JSGilbert you should definitely remind him of this, was telling my younger brother embarrassing things he did as a child just today, we both had a good laugh.
Finally someone with the education & experience to explain heat treating in all its value, not just hardness. I worked in a heat treat machine shop long before I knew that knives could be made in a back yard shop. There smart people who only know about hardness, do not know what RC hardness means. they use a file (62rc?) to test for hardness. They never heard of air or water harden steel, just oil harden steel. Thank you.
Mr Cow it's not supposed to be I love this man's vids I just thought like a blacksmith wouldn't be that much into the internet. I'm sorry dude calm ur ass tho.
So I am guessing that you would like a harder steel for a skinning knife for the edge retention and a slightly less hard steel for an outdoors/tactical style of knife or machete for the durability?
Travis Layh I do not skin many animals, but do you want edge retention, easy sharpening, flexibility, or chip resistance? Which is the most important? For my filet knives I want to be able to sharpen them to a razor edge and I will likely hone and polish before each use. I also want the metal to be flexible and springy. I wouldn't want this steel to be super hard with all the fancy edge protecting carbides because I can't bring a belt sander out with me to sharpen on a rowboat. (that last part was hyperbole, but I hope you get my point)
I do skin a number of animals. Filleting knifes have to be super thin a flexible to work properly but are also relatively easy to maintain. I am assuming that you would want a bit of a harder knife for big game skinning so it holds an edge longer and you are not running to the sharpener every 5 minutes. This would explain why so many hunting knives are stainless or have a higher carbon content. The grey area for me is more the outdoors/tactical knives. A harder knife would keep an edge longer but sometimes you end up abusing those knives more so a little softer might not hurt. Do you look for a knife with differential hardening for that use or would you err on the side of less hard for increased durability? So, 1095 or stainless for hunting knives, 1080 or something for tactical and I don't even think I would ever consider trying to make my own filleting knife. I have not looked into it but I would imagine that you would not even want to try hardening it due to its thickness and flexibility requirement.
Blade geometry and use vary, I've literally beaten the spine of one of my knives to the point of plastic deformation while cutting . Knife is D2 and 58-60 HRC. The truth is that you need to understand the limits of the knives/steels you use.
Makes sense, was hoping that there was a general direction to start in but maybe looking for some books and some more research into the finer nuances would be the way to go.
Rockwell hardness actually tells you a lot about the steel, particularly if you take the time to understand some basic differences between common types of steel.
@@adifferentangle7064 lmfao. No you just spouted of same old armchair bs just to make a comment. spent to many episodes of forged in fire and got your badge lmfao
From a guy that retired as a metallurgist doing Aerospace Research, I give you a big thumbs up. I was waiting on the toughness part... LOL. For knives, its all about the edge.
It should also be noted that some cutting applications call for a slightly softer steel for better edge holding. A job that may make a harder edge chip may may not damage a slightly softer edge.
I think the best summary starts around 17:30. HRC needs context. 1095 at 62 HRC, you have a slicer with no toughness. VS. M4 at 64 HRC, you still have a very tough knife. There are always considerations and trade-offs, HRC suggests more as your understanding increases.
Hey Walter, nice video. Very informative (if you read between the diplomacy). I think a very important point to have left people with is that the same HRC value will always give you the same metallurgical properties for the same piece of stock. The same value has different properties for different compositions of stock. The HRC test is an excellent scale measure in determining where your stock metal is at any point in time. Excellent tutorial.
I appreciate the more theory-driven video. I always enjoy your how-to videos as well, but knowing a little bit more of the behind the scenes knowledge is great too
liked and subscribed. this is what makes selecting a particular knife or steel interesting and necessary to determine what you can or cannot expect from the knife...
No joke about some steals shattering like glass when they get too hard. I've seen it. Not in a knife but in other applications. The strangest thing to see how the broken pieces fit back together with no bends in them.
The only steel that will shatter is high alloy tool steels. A-1 A-2 O-1 O-2 S-7 D-2 etc.. When you do the initial quench the steel forms the crystals. Then to be usably you must drew the temper to your desired hardness. The harder the temper the less tough the steel. If you take A-2 and just quench it you can get as high as 65 to 68 Rockwell. But that is not usable in that particular alloy. It must be drawn back to 55 to 57 max or it will fracture along the crystalline structure. Drawing starts around 325 degrees F. and goes to around 750 F. Cold rolled steel will not harden. It can only be case hardened with something like cyanide or some other solution rich in carbon. 1018 and 4140 are the lowest alloys that will temper to any degree.
FALpwn A common problem with files. They are made from cheaper alloys as a general rule. So to get the hardness up they are brittle. S-7 is a common alloy used in files. Now with China tools you are sing custom alloys that are just crap.
Finally! I've been preaching this same thing for years. All these guys blathering on about their Rockwell 60 knives as if my 56-58's aren't as good. But every time we go out to the bushcrafting events, mine always come back just as sharp and intact , and sometimes more so, than their store bought 60's. Thanks for having my back, Walter !!!
My opinion is it depend on the user.. if you gave knife to a "caveman type user" that dont know how to treat knife properly , even a maxamet will dull and chip in a second..
I was about to say “Ha ha, Walter, you didn’t test the Rockwell Hardness of that Play-doh.” But then you did! You always seem to be at least two steps ahead of my thinking.
Hi Walter, i am watching your video's for over 2 years now and learned a lot, thank you for sharing your knowledge!!! Kind regards from the belgian Ardennes, Yves.
MerkWares...your either a dumbass Or a smart ass. I'd like to think your not that freaking stupid, but just in case you are.... "it was a visual ad." Thing more.
I once worked for a wire manufacturer that specialized in heat resistant alloys. We had this one alloy that after being through the rolling mill was so brittle that if you dropped it, it would break into pieces. It was very hard to work with.
I made a knife out of a file, and I purposely just used the file as it is. Yeah, I used a bench grinder, belt sander, air sander, you name it. It was thee biggest pain in the ass to shape and polish, but after a few years (!) I finally was happy with it. The thing takes a razor edge and chops through small trees with ease. Nonetheless, I made damn sure never to drop it because i know it'll just shatter. But it looks really cool and to me, it's just a testament to doing something most people don't do, and I see why, haha. But this was worth every second of the 20 minutes. Thank you for making this video. :)
Good video, but would have liked to have seen more practical demo of toughness, such as rolling the edge of a knife with too high an HRC across a hardened steel nail and watching the edge chip and notch ... perfect illustration of the tradeoff between hardness and toughness. Anyone with a jeweler's loop and a disposable razor blade can mimic the result without ruining a knife too. Keep up the great work, and good tip on the technical data sheets.
I love my O1 but it's so tough that it's a pain to grind at times. It's nice and springy yet is still hard as anything I can find around. The Vanadium, Chromium and Tungsten carbides are very wear resistant and will destroy grinding belts very fast. Once sharp it only requires minor touch ups to bring the edge back.
Understanding steel alloys is VERY important for a knifemaker IMO. For example, I make these big bad cleavers out of 3v because its crazy tough even at 60 hrc and holds an edge due to the vanadium. 3v being known for its toughness makes that an obvious choice. However 3v is also fantastic for edc style folders because being so tough you can take the edge pretty thin without fear of failure.
Moreover - the desired qualites of the steel depends on what your gona do with the knife. A kitchen knife usual have different steel compared to a bush-knife.
Walter, it's not chromium carbides that make stainless steel stainless, it's the chromium oxide layer on the surface. In fact it's a challenge to alloyers to not form chromium carbides, so that less chromium can be used in the alloy as it is expensive. Great video otherwise.
Baleyg Also, if SS hold an edge longer than carbon steels it's because the edge doesn't corrode as quick as carbon steel. In fact corrosion is the reason razor blade dull not your hair.
I was going to say the same thing. for example D2 steel has around 12% chromium in it but most of that is tied up in the chromium carbides with very little "free" chromium, the result is that D2 isnt a true stainless steel and will rust fairly easily when compared to steels that have more free chromium. however If you lower the carbon content of d2 steel it will become more stainless since less of the chromium will form carbides which results in more free chromium.... I hope that makes sense to everyone
When people say hardest they are more than likely referring to toughness which is a better measure of strength as opposed to just Rockwell hardness which is more a measure of how brittle the steel is but you ideally want a mixture of hardness and malleability in order to prevent failure in the metal such as brittle fractures
My uncle overhardened some steel (idk what steel exactly) and it chipped if you hit wood so he tossed the one and kept the other and put a handle on it and put it in his kitchen, that was 7 years ago and he has never sharpened it and he has cut apart animals with it even
So what's the best steel for shock resistance at a 62 Rockwell? Dozer knives used to say they were 62 rockwell D2 steel, will D2 at 62 Rw snap easier that 5160 at 62?
I was surprised that I knew so much already. From all the chemistry classes ive taken, ive always just assumed how the different elements in a hard or soft steel worked. You have now confirmed all of my assumptions.
Though, they did under stand about the grain pattern. There is an old practice of hardening a test piece of steel and breaking the peiece to look the "grain" formations in the fracture.
So I'm planning on making some hunting knives for my Uncle and my father. Whats are some good steels/metals I should take a look at or which do you recommend? Price isn't really a factor but I also like getting the most bang for my buck. I plan on making the handle out of Kirinite or Micarta (that I will blend myself) and possibly acid etching a mural on it. I'm in no hurry as they will be hunting season gifts this fall or Christmas at the latest.
I enjoyed the video , but I've been testing my new knives by beating (batoning) the crap out of them, seeing how long the edge holds and whether it chips or rolls. If it doesn't hold up or sharpen well, I give it to a Grand Kid for Christmas. Keep the videos coming! Thanks.
list of important qualities of steel per application hardness - small knives usually cooking knives or knives that wont take much abuse toughness - large choppers or camp knives resilience - knives made for hard abuse like a survival knife (usually paired with toughness)
+Cameron Reid the ability to return to its original shape without deforming, toughness will not return to the original shape but is harder to fracture something tough
Walter great illustration. Also hardness can be illustrated comparing a cup of water and a cup of ice. I really enjoy and appreciate your videos, thank you!
I just wanted to say thank you, I have one of your short swords, 18 inch blade , with hammered copper...it has a Walrus tusk handle, really nice 👍 . The leather sheath is very good too. And it's very well balanced. , Brock Woodson is the only one that comes close to your caliber. Like I said, I just wanted to say thanks.
Hi Mr Sorrel.Question? I have an unlimited supply of sawmill circular saw blades and bandsaw blades. I can take the temper out of my knife blank, cut it with angle grinder, file it, but I can't drill the stuff! Tried high speed , Titanium coated, Cobalt bits . The best I could get was friction drilling a hole through it. Suggestions? BTW , love your educational videos. Myrt Nitz.
Myrton Nitz ANNEAL it. your fighting with hard steel. tempering only goes so far, heat the saw blade up to critical temp and let it cool slowly. the drills should have no problem.
how do you increase the Rockwell Hardness in a steel ? I mean there are knives in Vanadis 4E steel with HRC 60 and others with HRC 64 .how that's happening ?
LOL one of your best. Bill Clinton, Playdoh and HRC. And I know who the guitar player was (wink wink). Someday I hope to be a great knife maker and you are one of the guys who helps keep us improving our craft. Two thumbs up..
You are really awesone :) ... i am sad that my teacher of metallurgy make me this subject so hard and confusing. Now i can see that even metallurgy can be fun and useful :) thanks
Just wondering, I have some H-13 steel, have you ever used it to make a blade? How about S-7? We used S-7 for ejector pins on molds. I have some of the S-7 that has to be drawn down. RC scale is up around 72. It breaks like glass, LOL. Any ideas for these steels? Thanks.
Never used H-13 for knives or cutting tools. Used it for die cast cavities mostly. We bought all of our ejector pins, the were hard on the outside but would bend without breaking. The S-7 would not hold up in any cutoff dies even when brought gown to 60-61 RC. It made real good cold chisels, still have a few. I worked in a Tool room that had 330 people in it. Heat treat, which I ran had 12 furnaces of which 6 were salt bath. Knives people made were out of 0-1, 0-6, D2, 440C, and 1095. 440C at 60 RC worked real good but good old D-2 was best at holding an edge. When you have furnaces that hold the temperature within a few degrees it is easy to get the desired RC most all the time. I never got around to making a knife out of M-2, high speed steel you need a salt bath furnace that would run temp over 2000 degrees accurately. Good luck.
If I h/t my blades right, I test with a sharp file. When done right, the file don't even leave a scratch, just slides across. Temper for 1 hr x 2 in the area of 400F. (Dep on steel). Result about HRC 59 with good shock tolerance.
I think your videos are great but it's worth pointing out that the main thing that differentiates Rockwell from Brinell(and Vickers) is that instead of measuring the depth like with Rockwell, you're measuring the area of the indentation. Vickers is a little better than Brinell because with Vickers the indentor is square pyramidial and you take the average value of the two diagonals of the indentation to calculate a value.
Explain to me why I get a ghost line on my knives after I heat treat. its visible on the main bevel and it only shows up when I either polish or sandblast my blades. thanks, Joe.
I find myself confused as to the best hardness my first knife, currently being made of O1 steel DIN 1.2510. I've searched for technical data but can't find any more info than I already had. I am making two chef's knives. The stock is 3mm thick, and around 60mm deep. One is an 8" German (ish) style chef's knife, and another a 6.5" vegetable cleaver, both a flat grind. They're for normal daily use in our home prepping and cooking (not cutting through any bone, for what it's worth). What sort of hardness should I be aiming for with the temper? I assumed harder would be better - in that it would hold an edge longer. But I can't find much info with regards to brittleness - I obviously don't want it to break. Would tempering at 150C to get 63-62HRc be too hard?
here is my two cents on hardness, I received a SOG Sliptron for christmas last year, first time I took it in the bush with me I snapped the tip off the blade, I have been using folding knives of varying quality for 25+ years and this is the first time I have snapped a tip off a blade, my opinion is that the blade was too hard and brittle, a shame really as the knife looked pretty nice.
I work with aerospace ball bearings. As an example I use M50 which has a HRC requirement of 61-64. And 52100 with HRC 58-62. The hardest I've seen are ceramic balls with a HRC of 68.9
I thought knife makers got steel already heat treated. Is it only custom makers that do it themselves? Does, for example, Spyderco, do its own heat treat? If not, then how do they cut the blades from the hardened steel?
All the tea in China No, if the steel was already heat treated it would take forever to grind from bar stock to knife form. Makers get it in the softer annealed state, grind it then heat treat it (either in house or send it off) .
the soulpuncher You do not want anything over a 330mm kitchen knife in 440C realistically. Especially if you want it to hold well and not be prone to fracture.
Well done I do wish you had talked about Damascus steel and how it falls into that spectrum but I also realize that talking about how samurai swords have the softer metal on the inside for greater flexibility is what makes them so strong...but that would be a whole other episode wouldn't it. Tough topic I think you did a great job trying to at least impress upon us that steel hardness doesn't tell you all you need to about a blade.
D Rautio -When talking about the hardness of pattern welded steels (Damascus), there are a few things you'd have to consider. What steels have been folded together? What were their properties? How was it hardened? How was it tempered? If you made Damascus out of two very different steels, let's say one with very low carbon content, and one with a very high carbon content, you'd end up with areas of very hard steel and areas of very soft steel. The higher your layer count, the smaller both those areas would be.
The carbon migrates between the layers, certainly when having more than 3 layers. so I guess what you see with damascus is mostly not the carbon but the bigger atoms like nickel or whatever.
I just bought 3 denim shirts... My journey begins!!!!!!
Your penis is now Rockwell 62.
@@mcdermottpeter bill Clinton would deny that, lol
Hahahahahahahaa
ekvr
"I don't want to get too deep into the weeds of metallurgy" and "Pedantry Overload Alert"s. Walter, we clicked a 20+ minute TH-cam Video. That's obviously what we're here for. Take us down the bloody rabbit hole.
Yeah this is slow going. You can read all this remedial info in 5 minutes.
@@luceatlux7087yeah but to be able to understand comprehend and incorporate the information you need context.
@@lindboknifeandtool Simply, you're right and I would tend to totally agree.. This kind of comment seems very unusual for me. I almost never mind nuance. Without remembering the video, I must've been in some kind of off mood or something because i am a detail nut. From memory (other than maybe right here lol) i've never once been in a position where i got exasperated before the other people I'm around due to excessive detail.
The most drastic changes in complexion can occur with the smallest changes in makeup and esp understanding.
I'm always freaked out when I notice important service personnel (eg, mds in healthcare or mechanics with my car) have impatient personalities that seem prone to overlooking things.
Walter, I like it. My 7 year old grandson like it too. He asked me to buy him some Play-doh, I asked him to buy me some steel.
As a fisherman I like high carbon, softer steel. It is easy to sharpen to very sharp for preparing the fish. Fish isn't exactly hard, so it also keeps the sharpness fairly well. Needs to be taken care, clean and dry well, since it rusts very easily (blood is bad man).
Just putting extra emphasis to right tools for the task at hand.
Good video, thank you!
You are probably the first person in history to put Play Doh on a belt sander.
not to mention getting it red hot in the furnace!
My nephew did, about 20 years ago, among other inventive places.
@@JSGilbert you should definitely remind him of this, was telling my younger brother embarrassing things he did as a child just today, we both had a good laugh.
Finally someone with the education & experience to explain heat treating in all its value, not just hardness. I worked in a heat treat machine shop long before I knew that knives could be made in a back yard shop. There smart people who only know about hardness, do not know what RC hardness means. they use a file (62rc?) to test for hardness. They never heard of air or water harden steel, just oil harden steel. Thank you.
LN2 hardening is where it's at ;)
I like how he knows what click bait is😂
Its not exactly rocket science...
Pretty sure he's really in touch with internet culture. especially if hes uploading stuff to youtube. we dont give him enough credit.
Xx LelzXD420 xX wtf this is straight up insulting
Mr Cow it's not supposed to be I love this man's vids I just thought like a blacksmith wouldn't be that much into the internet. I'm sorry dude calm ur ass tho.
GoodmanDontLai yeah ur right
So I am guessing that you would like a harder steel for a skinning knife for the edge retention and a slightly less hard steel for an outdoors/tactical style of knife or machete for the durability?
Yes, the type of steel plays a large part in this too.
Travis Layh I do not skin many animals, but do you want edge retention, easy sharpening, flexibility, or chip resistance? Which is the most important? For my filet knives I want to be able to sharpen them to a razor edge and I will likely hone and polish before each use. I also want the metal to be flexible and springy. I wouldn't want this steel to be super hard with all the fancy edge protecting carbides because I can't bring a belt sander out with me to sharpen on a rowboat. (that last part was hyperbole, but I hope you get my point)
I do skin a number of animals. Filleting knifes have to be super thin a flexible to work properly but are also relatively easy to maintain. I am assuming that you would want a bit of a harder knife for big game skinning so it holds an edge longer and you are not running to the sharpener every 5 minutes. This would explain why so many hunting knives are stainless or have a higher carbon content. The grey area for me is more the outdoors/tactical knives. A harder knife would keep an edge longer but sometimes you end up abusing those knives more so a little softer might not hurt. Do you look for a knife with differential hardening for that use or would you err on the side of less hard for increased durability? So, 1095 or stainless for hunting knives, 1080 or something for tactical and I don't even think I would ever consider trying to make my own filleting knife. I have not looked into it but I would imagine that you would not even want to try hardening it due to its thickness and flexibility requirement.
Blade geometry and use vary, I've literally beaten the spine of one of my knives to the point of plastic deformation while cutting . Knife is D2 and 58-60 HRC. The truth is that you need to understand the limits of the knives/steels you use.
Makes sense, was hoping that there was a general direction to start in but maybe looking for some books and some more research into the finer nuances would be the way to go.
Rockwell hardness actually tells you a lot about the steel, particularly if you take the time to understand some basic differences between common types of steel.
word salad
@@tonymengela3575 If you don't know anything, sure.
@@adifferentangle7064 no, knowing the obvious is why I said what I did. Just masturbation of the obvious
@@adifferentangle7064 lmfao. No you just spouted of same old armchair bs just to make a comment. spent to many episodes of forged in fire and got your badge lmfao
You earned yourself a big thumbs up for the Bill Clinton joke.
Captain Caveman I came here for this comment
lol me to a ripper one lololol
I can't figure out if we are Clinton fans here or not
I think we're more Monica Lewinsky fans, aren't we? ;-)
Mike Morton Monica sucks..............
From a guy that retired as a metallurgist doing Aerospace Research, I give you a big thumbs up. I was waiting on the toughness part... LOL. For knives, its all about the edge.
Not only did I watch the whole video, but I actually enjoyed it. You have a gift of making the complex simple to understand. Thank You.
It should also be noted that some cutting applications call for a slightly softer steel for better edge holding. A job that may make a harder edge chip may may not damage a slightly softer edge.
Good stuff Walter, thanks for taking the time.
I think the best summary starts around 17:30. HRC needs context.
1095 at 62 HRC, you have a slicer with no toughness.
VS.
M4 at 64 HRC, you still have a very tough knife.
There are always considerations and trade-offs, HRC suggests more as your understanding increases.
you talkin' 'bout the Clinton bitch ?
robert marques HRC ( Hardness Rockwell C scale)
dispatcher7007 I disagree, M4 performs exceptionally well at low angles.
dispatcher7007 12 degrees per side, for most pocket knife users increasing to 15 per side is more than adequate leaving very little chance for damage.
Yeah, M4 can rust. I think for non stainless steel it's about the best.
Hey Walter, nice video. Very informative (if you read between the diplomacy). I think a very important point to have left people with is that the same HRC value will always give you the same metallurgical properties for the same piece of stock. The same value has different properties for different compositions of stock. The HRC test is an excellent scale measure in determining where your stock metal is at any point in time. Excellent tutorial.
I appreciate the more theory-driven video. I always enjoy your how-to videos as well, but knowing a little bit more of the behind the scenes knowledge is great too
liked and subscribed. this is what makes selecting a particular knife or steel interesting and necessary to determine what you can or cannot expect from the knife...
No joke about some steals shattering like glass when they get too hard. I've seen it. Not in a knife but in other applications. The strangest thing to see how the broken pieces fit back together with no bends in them.
The only steel that will shatter is high alloy tool steels. A-1 A-2 O-1 O-2 S-7 D-2 etc.. When you do the initial quench the steel forms the crystals. Then to be usably you must drew the temper to your desired hardness. The harder the temper the less tough the steel. If you take A-2 and just quench it you can get as high as 65 to 68 Rockwell. But that is not usable in that particular alloy. It must be drawn back to 55 to 57 max or it will fracture along the crystalline structure. Drawing starts around 325 degrees F. and goes to around 750 F. Cold rolled steel will not harden. It can only be case hardened with something like cyanide or some other solution rich in carbon. 1018 and 4140 are the lowest alloys that will temper to any degree.
Free Golem I dropped a file once and it shattered
FALpwn A common problem with files. They are made from cheaper alloys as a general rule. So to get the hardness up they are brittle. S-7 is a common alloy used in files. Now with China tools you are sing custom alloys that are just crap.
Finally! I've been preaching this same thing for years. All these guys blathering on about their Rockwell 60 knives as if my 56-58's aren't as good. But every time we go out to the bushcrafting events, mine always come back just as sharp and intact , and sometimes more so, than their store bought 60's. Thanks for having my back, Walter !!!
what model you got?
My opinion is it depend on the user.. if you gave knife to a "caveman type user" that dont know how to treat knife properly , even a maxamet will dull and chip in a second..
cant believe u actually took the time to get some playdo and fashion a knife out of it respect the dedication :)
Shut the fuck up uncle Rico
I was about to say “Ha ha, Walter, you didn’t test the Rockwell Hardness of that Play-doh.” But then you did! You always seem to be at least two steps ahead of my thinking.
I like how you actually went and bought play-doh just for the sake of landing a joke. Now that's commitment.
maybe he has kids or grandkids... lol, I'm pretty sure, they'll be crying to their moms, mommy, grandpa took my play dough
cringes at weebness
@@Yonatan24 lol
Hi Walter, i am watching your video's for over 2 years now and learned a lot, thank you for sharing your knowledge!!! Kind regards from the belgian Ardennes, Yves.
How much for your custom Playdough knives? Can you do a pattern weld?
LOL. Yeah, sign me up for a 14" chef knife in tiger eye marble checkerboard damascus play-doh, hardened to HRC zero (0).
... which, after tempering, would be at what HRC ? ... xd
MerkWares...your either a dumbass Or a smart ass. I'd like to think your not that freaking stupid, but just in case you are.... "it was a visual ad." Thing more.
MerkWares is neither a dumbass or a smartass, he's a comedic genious
Don't kid yourself. He "borrowed" it from one of his grandchildren. And he didn't ask permission. ;)
I once worked for a wire manufacturer that specialized in heat resistant alloys. We had this one alloy that after being through the rolling mill was so brittle that if you dropped it, it would break into pieces. It was very hard to work with.
You’re a good teacher, which is actually pretty rare.
I made a knife out of a file, and I purposely just used the file as it is. Yeah, I used a bench grinder, belt sander, air sander, you name it. It was thee biggest pain in the ass to shape and polish, but after a few years (!) I finally was happy with it. The thing takes a razor edge and chops through small trees with ease. Nonetheless, I made damn sure never to drop it because i know it'll just shatter. But it looks really cool and to me, it's just a testament to doing something most people don't do, and I see why, haha. But this was worth every second of the 20 minutes. Thank you for making this video. :)
normally I hate clickbait but you did seem apologetic about it and the video was very interesting. good job
Well...that cleared up all of my questions...
Thanks to you, Mr. Sorrells, I am now going to include a Science Hammer in my daily carry.
Good video, but would have liked to have seen more practical demo of toughness, such as rolling the edge of a knife with too high an HRC across a hardened steel nail and watching the edge chip and notch ... perfect illustration of the tradeoff between hardness and toughness. Anyone with a jeweler's loop and a disposable razor blade can mimic the result without ruining a knife too.
Keep up the great work, and good tip on the technical data sheets.
I really like super hard Roselli UHC steel (66-68 HRC). Some Japanese hard knife steels are also really good.
Back in the 90's there was a hewhaw about molecular aligning the steel. Whatever became of that?
This video is so well put together. The philosophy here is deep!
This could be Knowledge to the infinite! At least it lenses perception for that...
I love my O1 but it's so tough that it's a pain to grind at times. It's nice and springy yet is still hard as anything I can find around. The Vanadium, Chromium and Tungsten carbides are very wear resistant and will destroy grinding belts very fast. Once sharp it only requires minor touch ups to bring the edge back.
Understanding steel alloys is VERY important for a knifemaker IMO. For example, I make these big bad cleavers out of 3v because its crazy tough even at 60 hrc and holds an edge due to the vanadium. 3v being known for its toughness makes that an obvious choice. However 3v is also fantastic for edc style folders because being so tough you can take the edge pretty thin without fear of failure.
Moreover - the desired qualites of the steel depends on what your gona do with the knife. A kitchen knife usual have different steel compared to a bush-knife.
And a piece of copper is no good for either one.
Walter, it's not chromium carbides that make stainless steel stainless, it's the chromium oxide layer on the surface. In fact it's a challenge to alloyers to not form chromium carbides, so that less chromium can be used in the alloy as it is expensive.
Great video otherwise.
Baleyg
Also, if SS hold an edge longer than carbon steels it's because the edge doesn't corrode as quick as carbon steel. In fact corrosion is the reason razor blade dull not your hair.
I was going to say the same thing. for example D2 steel has around 12% chromium in it but most of that is tied up in the chromium carbides with very little "free" chromium, the result is that D2 isnt a true stainless steel and will rust fairly easily when compared to steels that have more free chromium. however If you lower the carbon content of d2 steel it will become more stainless since less of the chromium will form carbides which results in more free chromium....
I hope that makes sense to everyone
@@ArtBrown06 I had seen something about storing the razor head in mineral oil in between shaves and making them last longer
When people say hardest they are more than likely referring to toughness which is a better measure of strength as opposed to just Rockwell hardness which is more a measure of how brittle the steel is but you ideally want a mixture of hardness and malleability in order to prevent failure in the metal such as brittle fractures
My uncle overhardened some steel (idk what steel exactly) and it chipped if you hit wood so he tossed the one and kept the other and put a handle on it and put it in his kitchen, that was 7 years ago and he has never sharpened it and he has cut apart animals with it even
actually you might know him, his name is Pete Gray from Gray Precision, heard that name by any chance
Thank you for all the great information in this video! Easy to understand when you explain it all!
So what's the best steel for shock resistance at a 62 Rockwell? Dozer knives used to say they were 62 rockwell D2 steel, will D2 at 62 Rw snap easier that 5160 at 62?
What are the best measurements for making a hunting knife?
Jack Kerr most knives on the market comes at 58 to 62 RHC dependent on prefrence
Louis Buss thanks
I was surprised that I knew so much already.
From all the chemistry classes ive taken, ive always just assumed how the different elements in a hard or soft steel worked. You have now confirmed all of my assumptions.
It is an ancient skill set, it is not rocket science.
I don't think medieval blacksmiths knew about the crystal lattice formations in steel when they made their swords fam.
Though, they did under stand about the grain pattern. There is an old practice of hardening a test piece of steel and breaking the peiece to look the "grain" formations in the fracture.
Can you do a video on laminated steel and whether or not it really makes a difference?
Silver Seto It depends on the task at hand, but yes it's usually a beneficial thing.
So I'm planning on making some hunting knives for my Uncle and my father. Whats are some good steels/metals I should take a look at or which do you recommend? Price isn't really a factor but I also like getting the most bang for my buck. I plan on making the handle out of Kirinite or Micarta (that I will blend myself) and possibly acid etching a mural on it. I'm in no hurry as they will be hunting season gifts this fall or Christmas at the latest.
Thank you for the lesson!
I enjoyed the video , but I've been testing my new knives by beating (batoning) the crap out of them, seeing how long the edge holds and whether it chips or rolls. If it doesn't hold up or sharpen well, I give it to a Grand Kid for Christmas. Keep the videos coming! Thanks.
list of important qualities of steel per application
hardness - small knives usually cooking knives or knives that wont take much abuse
toughness - large choppers or camp knives
resilience - knives made for hard abuse like a survival knife (usually paired with toughness)
Film Factory define resilience?
+Cameron Reid the ability to return to its original shape without deforming, toughness will not return to the original shape but is harder to fracture something tough
Film Factory cheers
Walter great illustration. Also hardness can be illustrated comparing a cup of water and a cup of ice.
I really enjoy and appreciate your videos, thank you!
I know this isn't part of the topic but was wondering how to go about getting my own logo to place on knives
I just wanted to say thank you, I have one of your short swords, 18 inch blade , with hammered copper...it has a Walrus tusk handle, really nice 👍 . The leather sheath is very good too. And it's very well balanced. , Brock Woodson is the only one that comes close to your caliber. Like I said, I just wanted to say thanks.
Hi Mr Sorrel.Question? I have an unlimited supply of sawmill circular saw blades and bandsaw blades. I can take the temper out of my knife blank, cut it with angle grinder, file it, but I can't drill the stuff! Tried high speed , Titanium coated, Cobalt bits . The best I could get was friction drilling a hole through it. Suggestions? BTW , love your educational videos. Myrt Nitz.
Myrton Nitz ANNEAL it. your fighting with hard steel. tempering only goes so far, heat the saw blade up to critical temp and let it cool slowly. the drills should have no problem.
So what is the difference between 60 and 61 hrc. Like what percentage harder is 61 than 60? And 61 to 62?
how do you increase the Rockwell Hardness in a steel ? I mean there are knives in Vanadis 4E steel with HRC 60 and others with HRC 64 .how that's happening ?
LOL one of your best. Bill Clinton, Playdoh and HRC. And I know who the guitar player was (wink wink). Someday I hope to be a great knife maker and you are one of the guys who helps keep us improving our craft. Two thumbs up..
You are really awesone :) ... i am sad that my teacher of metallurgy make me this
subject so hard and confusing. Now i can see that even metallurgy can be fun and useful :) thanks
Walter, is there a source or chart that will show HRC vs Toughness for various steel.
Overall Length: 280mm / 11in
Blade: 15.5mm / 6in
Blade width: 4.25mm / 0.167in
Steel: Teflon Coated 80CrV2 Carbon Steel, tempered to RC 59.5
Handle: 127mm 5″ Tempered Rubber
Sheath: 3mm Leather or plastic with Rotating Rubber Retention lock
Weight 202 gr / 7.1 oz
15€ is this any good in steel quality?
Just wondering, I have some H-13 steel, have you ever used it to make a blade? How about S-7? We used S-7 for ejector pins on molds. I have some of the S-7 that has to be drawn down. RC scale is up around 72. It breaks like glass, LOL. Any ideas for these steels?
Thanks.
Never used H-13 for knives or cutting tools. Used it for die cast cavities mostly. We bought all of our ejector pins, the were hard on the outside but would bend without breaking. The S-7 would not hold up in any cutoff dies even when brought gown to 60-61 RC. It made real good cold chisels, still have a few. I worked in a Tool room that had 330 people in it. Heat treat, which I ran had 12 furnaces of which 6 were salt bath. Knives people made were out of 0-1, 0-6, D2, 440C, and 1095. 440C at 60 RC worked real good but good old D-2 was best at holding an edge. When you have furnaces that hold the temperature within a few degrees it is easy to get the desired RC most all the time. I never got around to making a knife out of M-2, high speed steel you need a salt bath furnace that would run temp over 2000 degrees accurately.
Good luck.
Very professional. A good source of info. Thanks for that.
5:20 in shop class we call the drill press Bill Clinton because it... drills things
Twenty minutes to answer a question that can be answered in a sentence, wow that's a special kind of skill
Amazing video. Well done.
If I h/t my blades right, I test with a sharp file. When done right, the file don't even leave a scratch, just slides across. Temper for 1 hr x 2 in the area of 400F. (Dep on steel). Result about HRC 59 with good shock tolerance.
Great Videos, sir. Actually I wouldn't have mind the rest of the in-depth explanation at all.
I think your videos are great but it's worth pointing out that the main thing that differentiates Rockwell from Brinell(and Vickers) is that instead of measuring the depth like with Rockwell, you're measuring the area of the indentation.
Vickers is a little better than Brinell because with Vickers the indentor is square pyramidial and you take the average value of the two diagonals of the indentation to calculate a value.
About titanium what grade can I use for knife making and sword making
Finally! some materials science :D
Explain to me why I get a ghost line on my knives after I heat treat. its visible on the main bevel and it only shows up when I either polish or sandblast my blades. thanks, Joe.
Have you found that multiple draws help to refine the grain structure more than a single one? With O1 at least that seems to be the case for us.
I find myself confused as to the best hardness my first knife, currently being made of O1 steel DIN 1.2510. I've searched for technical data but can't find any more info than I already had. I am making two chef's knives. The stock is 3mm thick, and around 60mm deep. One is an 8" German (ish) style chef's knife, and another a 6.5" vegetable cleaver, both a flat grind. They're for normal daily use in our home prepping and cooking (not cutting through any bone, for what it's worth).
What sort of hardness should I be aiming for with the temper? I assumed harder would be better - in that it would hold an edge longer. But I can't find much info with regards to brittleness - I obviously don't want it to break. Would tempering at 150C to get 63-62HRc be too hard?
Could glass be graded using the Rockwell unite of measurement? I would expect it would be much "harder".
Walter what is the optimal heat treat for play-doh?
I really enjoyed the video. I wanted to hear more :)
im anxious to see how these new alloys they are making turns out
here is my two cents on hardness, I received a SOG Sliptron for christmas last year, first time I took it in the bush with me I snapped the tip off the blade, I have been using folding knives of varying quality for 25+ years and this is the first time I have snapped a tip off a blade, my opinion is that the blade was too hard and brittle, a shame really as the knife looked pretty nice.
Should have kept your money for food instead.
sallymaggiespotty So many people just can't read, shame really, Read the second sentence of my comment again.
Its all one sentence though.
Mountain Fisher bahahahaha, Get 'im!
it made sense to me as you explained it.
i have a whole lot of a-8 tool steel chipper blades could these be used to make knives?
If you have Glock, look at the cruciform part of the trigger bar. Theres a small divet in the center. Thats from the factory QA hardness test.
So what's the HRC of a katana like the ones you make?
I work with aerospace ball bearings. As an example I use M50 which has a HRC requirement of 61-64. And 52100 with HRC 58-62.
The hardest I've seen are ceramic balls with a HRC of 68.9
I've gained more useful information watching your videos than any other. thanks for all the great tip
Very good explanation!
thanks for that low down on metallurgy. Must appreciated.
what is a good oil to use for quenching spring steel?
Have you tested a tungsten carbide knife?
Maxamet,rex-121,zdp-189
Excellent presentation!!
I thought knife makers got steel already heat treated. Is it only custom makers that do it themselves? Does, for example, Spyderco, do its own heat treat? If not, then how do they cut the blades from the hardened steel?
All the tea in China No, if the steel was already heat treated it would take forever to grind from bar stock to knife form. Makers get it in the softer annealed state, grind it then heat treat it (either in house or send it off) .
Great video....well explained and filmed very well.
You can only get so much hardness without brittleness and so much toughness without sacrificing hardness. it's always a compromise.
I believe that 440-C is good for any blade under 3ft and 1095 over 3 ft all around 1/4 inch
the soulpuncher You do not want anything over a 330mm kitchen knife in 440C realistically. Especially if you want it to hold well and not be prone to fracture.
How much for the Playdough knife?
The technical discussion is much appreciated. Thanks for the info an inspiration.
That was helpful thank you very much
I've seen where an old file was transformed into a dagger. Scary sharp.
Well done I do wish you had talked about Damascus steel and how it falls into that spectrum but I also realize that talking about how samurai swords have the softer metal on the inside for greater flexibility is what makes them so strong...but that would be a whole other episode wouldn't it. Tough topic I think you did a great job trying to at least impress upon us that steel hardness doesn't tell you all you need to about a blade.
D Rautio -When talking about the hardness of pattern welded steels (Damascus), there are a few things you'd have to consider. What steels have been folded together? What were their properties? How was it hardened? How was it tempered?
If you made Damascus out of two very different steels, let's say one with very low carbon content, and one with a very high carbon content, you'd end up with areas of very hard steel and areas of very soft steel. The higher your layer count, the smaller both those areas would be.
The carbon migrates between the layers, certainly when having more than 3 layers. so I guess what you see with damascus is mostly not the carbon but the bigger atoms like nickel or whatever.
May i know the liquid u used to hardened the blade