Myths about Nonduality and Science
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 27 ส.ค. 2024
- Misconceptions about nonduality including a) that it requires levels, title and an endpoint, b) or religious teachings, c) that no practice is necessary, d) that mystical experiences can't be understood scientifically, e) that psychedelics can produce persistent nonduality, f) that nonduality is a psychotic state, g) that if there is no "I" you won't be compassionate, h) that all research on nonduality is reliable and i) that "no thoughts" isn't the goal.
Presented @ the Science and NonDuality Conference in San Jose, CA in Oct. 2015.
Blogpost "The Eight Myths of NonDuality" @ happinessbeyond...
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3) Into the Stillness: Dialogues on Awakening Beyond Thought (with Rich Doyle)
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The "shock" study discussed in minute 6, where people shocked themselves, that might just be due to curiosity rather than anything else.
Hi Krasbin. As described in the video starting @ 5:26, the folk who got picked for the "shocking" part of the study were those who specifically DID NOT like shocks.
This is all discussed in detail in the blogpost "Electric shocks rather than 'blah, blah'???...new research" @ happinessbeyondthought.blogspot.com/2014/08/electric-shocks-rather-than-blah.html.
stillness
Gary, thank your for an excellent prez, once again.
On expertism: Ericsson's studies (and many further repeats) show it takes c. 10 000 hours of paced (one needs to integrate, not just ram-it-in), deliberate (not just running through the motions) practise, usually at an progressively developing difficulty (at the edge of skill) - to start forming expertise.
It doesn't mean, guarantee or automatically follow that 10 000 hours is required or is guaranteed to reach expertise - not to say anything about mastery.
Often the 10 000 hours is bandied around way too easily and almost as a badge of honor, when in fact it can mean very little or a lot - dependin on how the practise is carried out and what level of mastery/expertism is achieved after those hours.
The application of direct biofeedback (neural and cardio) can significantly increase focus, deliberateness and results of effort - or so it seems at least - reading into the experiences from practitioners of biofeedback in meditation.
Hi +nanomyou5. Yes, the 10,000 hrs which Ericsson found, that Malcolm Gladwell publicized in his "Outliers: The Story of Success" needs a lot of clarification, which is why i wrote two blogposts on the issue: "Are 10,000 hrs needed for awakening? NO. How to practice 'better'" @ happinessbeyondthought.blogspot.com/2013/06/are-10000-hrs-needed-for-awakening-no.html and "10,000 hrs (meditation) isn't enough...genetics matters" @ happinessbeyondthought.blogspot.com/2014/01/10000-hrs-meditation-practice-isnt.html.
As the blogposts point out, the earlier work focused on violin mastery, which has a lot of subjective aspects to the judgment and the sample size in those studies were not large. They also cite the work of David Epstein in his book "The Sports Gene" and how it applied to athletics and training.
The most useful research, IMHO, is the highly detailed work on chess by two chess masters who are also psychologists, Gobet and Campatelli. Chess being, well, chess, there is a specific number of "Elo" points required to reach mastery. For their study, w/104 skilled chess players, this was reached in times from 3,000 to 23,000 hrs and with subsequent practice after achieving "mastery", some advanced and some did not.
It also works with grocery clerks as Philip Ackerman found in his studies.
It has been fascinating to see this unfold in achieving persistent nonduality in "myself" and w/many others. IME, there is no "free lunch"...it does require thousands of hours spread over some time. Variations depend on genetics, other activities and training, culture, etc. The brain evolved to establish its OS very slowly and carefully as discussed in the blogpost "Why we're 'complicated' from 12 to 30...recent research" @ happinessbeyondthought.blogspot.com/2015/05/why-were-complicated-from-12-to.html.
The large number of hours and many examples of the desired state are necessary to "convince" the brain that the new OS is really better and to give it enough time to make the required modifications, try them out, see what needs to be changed, try it out, etc. until it reaches the asymptote when it will stabilize it with neurochemistry that will make it very difficult to leave.
stillness
Gary Weber Thanks for the very detailed and thoughtful post. Will look at your blog posts.
Very useful, thank you, Gary.
Hi +Duff Padmasana. Great that you found it so useful. Best with all of your efforts on the path. stillness
"I" haha, find that many creative/artistic ideas I have (not really "my" ideas of course, no free will etc.) these visions/ideas often don't really have an "I" characteristic to them, they are often very alien and non-personal... they are often extremely pleasurable to let wash over me... I have a bit of trouble with this concept of "I, me, my, thoughts" and the line between them and those thoughts that aren't those... Like everyone who is not fully awakened... I sense the inherent negativity to the "I, me, my" category of thoughts and can see why silencing them is the only appropriate and logical recourse... however, sometimes artistic visions and disassociative day dreams are quite beautiful and pleasurable and seem to take shape as a thought/idea.. and they are very fun... when you say your thoughts have stopped... what about non-self-reference thoughts?... like a surrealistic burst of imagination seems often to have nothing to do with the ego, or this reality even, many of my thoughts are like that, and those thoughts are very pleasurable... so how do I reconcile this being that the flow of thoughts is often fluid and there is this overlap between positive/negative thoughts... if one turns off the negative thoughts, do the rich impersonal and creative thoughts also cease? Your experience?.. to be more specific, the arrival of a beautiful idea/thought into one my mind... is pleasurable... it doesn't seem identical to a "flow state"... the actual "blah blah" of certain creative thoughts in this case actually feels good... do these thoughts even matter, do they also need to be stopped?.... My everyday disposition is often very happy... which I actually find to block meditative progress...because I already feel very content...how does one advance when one feels content already?
Hi Tom Collector. The video "What 'no thoughts' means? 3 different kinds of thoughts" has been useful for many folk to sort this out. Also, the videos "No Thoughts, No Time Part I" and "No Thoughts, No Time Part II" gives the neuroscience behind this.
The blogpost "Right-sizing your 'I', understanding confirmation bias...new studies" @ happinessbeyondthought.blogspot.com/2017/05/right-sizing-your-i-understanding.html gives the neuroscience behind why virtually all of our decisions and creativity are done off-line.
On your other questions on "already feeling very content", so why change?", and "why stop thoughts?" whether or not you will stay that way is predetermined, so it is totally "out of your hands".
As Ramana Maharshi said: "If one wants to abide in the thought-free state, a struggle is inevitable. One must fight one's way through before regaining one's original primal state. If one succeeds in the fight and reaches the goal, the enemy, namely the thoughts, will all subside in the Self and disappear entirely."
If you do not have a strong desire to end your suffering by stopping your
problematic self-referential thoughts, you will stay where you are.
Trust this is useful.
stillness
Everything is predestinated. There's no free will. We are robots designed to function fate. Cleared.
Thank you for this Gary! :)
Hi Trevor. Great that you found it so useful. stillness, love and letting go
Thank you.....
Hi Mamunur Rashid. Great that you found it useful. If you look under "Show More" above, you'll find links to all of my work, all free in some format. stillness
Hi Gary, I was just wondering if you think a profession such as acting would be detrimental to achieving "enlightenment" or a no thought state. I understand that you encountered questions about whether a practice like self-enquiry would interfere with your scientific career and am wondering the same as it applies to a profession like acting, where the work can require one to conjure "sense memories" or events in the past in order to illicit particular emotions. Other practices with the craft may include observing other people and sponging behavior to use in a particular acting role, as well as taking on the identity of a character etc. It just seems like a slippery slope and I was curious to hear if you had a response to this particular "dilemma" of mine . A lot of great acting requires one to have thoughts that your character would have. And as an aside other obstacles outside the actual craft of acting would include surrounding oneself in the highly materialistic and ego driven environment of Hollywood. Given this, would it be possible to still achieve a healthy spiritual life? Best, -Blake
Blake anthony Not Gary, but am wondering, would acting actually make insight into the ego easier? "You" is a narrative, an act that plays out with all the accompanying suffering. Taking on other "selves" as an act and dropping them when finished with the role could give a greater sense of freedom that the same can be done with the "real" I, which is in fact no more real than any other character you choose to perform. The details may change depending on the role, but the egoic structure is more or less the same. *I* am sad, *I* want x, this happened to *me*, I need to x in the future, I can't lose x, I need y, I must achieve z, I am an abc, my identity must be defended, I must be more or less x, I must stop them, etc. Of course all the forms that this egoic structure takes has some residue of suffering and struggle that always comes along with ego.
@@modo1896 I appreciate your insight. I have questions along these lines too and you have helped me, so thank you. 🙏🏻
@Blake anthony Your question is very relevant to me tho I am not an actor. 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼 I am curious what you have come to know now that years have passed.
Thank you ❤
Thanks for another great talk +Gary Weber
Speaking of hyperquiesence, have you come across much about sensory deprivation (flotation tanks, etc.) and meditation/self inquiry?
Hi +Rodney Clang. Yes, am a big fan of sensory deprivation/flotation tanks. A great approach, particularly for a meditation like "I am not this body". we had a facility here but the University took away the space for it, so it shut down. The work was focused on each folk's experience, not focused on meditation, etc. Worth doing if you can find a facility. stillness
Encouraging, thank you!
This is basically default network atrophy. The brain is obviously still functioning, and thoughts like planning and tasks are still used, it is the “emotional charge” and blah blah as you say that is the issue. So you just watch it, question as necessary, and scientifically speaking there is no possibility of the DN not atrophying at some point.
Hi TheJooberjones. It isn't "atrophy", and you can't get there, as has been discussed with you in several other comments, by just hanging out, "watching" and believing it will go away. It's not going to happen.
The video "Does Mindfulness Lead to Persistent Nonduality?" and the 155 comments, currently, to it, demonstrate this.
stillness
Wow, how did I just now find this?
Hi derekplus. She who does it all wanted you to find it. stillness
Hi Gary. I noticed you referred to philosophy and education at certain points during this video. I was wondering, as an academic yourself, are there any areas of study which you feel can aid the development of spiritual growth? Similarly, do you think there is a crossover point between any particular topic(s) of study and Nonduality? Cognitive Science, Philosophy and Theology/Buddhist studies are some topics I personally am considering to study but I fear the latter options may be too dogmatic (also, I personally find studying Easterm philosophers like Krishnamurti and sages like Ramana Maharshi and Lao Tzu more interesting than Western Philosophers!) I would be fascinated to hear your input on the role academia can play - or has played - in yours, or anyone's spiritual development. Do you find them to be complimentary, or alternatively can it prove to be a hindrance? Peace.
Hi +Michael Devlin. The only useful "philosophy" i found was from folk who had experienced awakening directly, and were writing from that personal understanding. If they were iconoclastic, and were not speaking from any "lineage", that was a good indicator that they had a strong and real understanding.
i read no religious texts, nor anything written or said by anyone who was "a something" in a religion. i had been taught Christianity as a kid, but had turned my back totally on religion. i found J. Krishnamurti, Ramana, Lao Tzu, Osho, Bassui, and some of the Zen poets very useful. i did not find western philosophy useful or interesting, then or now. None of it, not even Spinoza, who was "Einstein's philosopher", is totally clear or "on point" re nonduality, IME.
Subsequent to the page turning, i have found the texts that Ramana strongly recommended, the Bhagavad Gita, and his own Upadesa Saram, useful as my primary advaita texts - they are used as basic texts in advaita centers. my second book, "Dancing Beyond Thought" is primarily the verses Ramana selected from the Bhagavad Gita w/some supporting verses. The Ribhu Gita was the text Ramana recommended most strongly, but it is not well known. (Amazingly, copies of the Ribhu Gita previously published by Ramana's ashram, are now selling on amazon for > $3,900, as they are currently out of print. Don't worry, they will publish more - i was in touch with the folk who does that @ Ramanasramam last week discussing the Ribhu Gita.)
As you can hear in the video "Upgrading Your Mental Operating System" @ th-cam.com/video/EK8pcUt4gio/w-d-xo.html, i was an empirical scientist and i used those teachings as places to get experiments i could run myself to see if they were "true" for me. i don't really consider an "academic". i spent my professional life doing and leading research in national laboratories and industry, and then went to a university as a research manager for four years, but not really as an "academic".
Trust this is useful.
stillness
+Gary Weber Thanks for the detailed response Gary. I'll definitely have to give some of those Zen poets a look at. Interestingly I was having a peek at the Bhagavad Gita today and once I got past the first chapter it started to become particularly interesting. Apologies if I've in any way undermined your position as a Scientist, I in no way intended to do so. Looking forward to more videos, they're always incredibly useful!
Hi +Michael Devlin. Yes, chapter one of the Bhagavad Gita is a "throw away" that almost no one reads or refers to. However, chapter two is an elegant summary of the entire text. i don't feel "undermined", only wanted to clarify that i am an empirical folk, not a philosophical one, and my journey was/is DIY. Great you're finding the vids useful. stillness
Hello Gary, do you have to maintain the same posture without changing it for min of 40 mins? and go beyond the body pain? as there is lots of numbness pain which makes me change my posture all the time... thank you
It's difficult for the mind to stop if you keep changing your body posture every time you get a sensation. Just try to let everything be, to the extent that you can.
@@c3realpt ok, thank you for your reply. ill try my best
@@argiayogadubai you can try meditating lying down. Do what's the most comfortable for you. good luck :)
HI gary, love your videos, but i want to admit that i can't sit for 40 minutes as i feel agitated after 15 minutes.
Hi +Kim Jong Fun. Then sit for 20 minutes. Try to keep "stretching" as you can, but move forward. Don't try to go all the way to 40 minutes. It will take time for the body, and the mind, to get accustomed to, and strong enough, for longer sitting. The biggest problem with stopping @ 15 minutes is that you never get the great rewards that will come if you can sit longer, all you see is the problems in your mind and body. stillness
Wonderfully explained 👍
Hi The Void. Great that you found it useful. If you look under "Show More" in any of my videos, you'll see links to all of my stuff, all free in some format. stillness
Hi Gary, thank you for this and your other valuable presentations. I have a question about spiritual practicing since you say it's necessary. A few things occur to me when I consider that: 1) There are prominent accounts (Eckhart Tolle, Ramana Maharshi) where practice seems to play no roll in their awakening. 2) How can practice be defined since no two experiences are identical? Doesn't there exist some window of difference between two people who are ostensibly both doing the same thing (meditating, yoga asana, etc.) 3) the problem of causality: what can be said to be the cause of a non-dual shift or enlightenment? Thanks again for your work and presentations 🙏🏼
Ramana Maharshi meditated full time for 9 years before achieving eternal liberation
@@voidisyinyangvoidisyinyang885 I thought he was liberated at 17 years old. That would mean based on ur comment he mediated at 8 years old?
@@ahmednasser9962 I wouldn't want to change what you "thought." I just go based on reading Ramana Maharshi directly. Yes the view promoted by David Godman is that Ramana Maharshi achieved eternal liberation when Ramana Maharshi first imagined what it would be like to die. But if you actually read Ramana Maharshi directly you discover that after nine years of nonstop meditation at the ashram then his heart stopped for over 15 minutes. During this period of 15 minutes of no heart beat he experienced nothingness - as formless awareness - and then a STRONG electrical shock on the right side of his heart which then caused his spiritual ego as light to remanifest on the left side of his heart. And that is what he called "cutting the knot" as his experience of "eternal liberation." If you really are not that interested in his teachings then by all means don't study his writing - that's all I can tell you. No need to take my word for it but please don't take someone else's word either. I would recommend studying Ramana Maharshi directly. thanks
@@voidisyinyangvoidisyinyang885 appreciate your response. What is the name of the book ur referring to that u read? I’d like to look deeper into this.
@@ahmednasser9962 Thanks for your interest. As far as books on or by Ramana Maharashi - pretty sure the main source I'm referring to is "Talks with Ramana Maharshi" - it should be searchable as a free pdf online. But most importantly is a 1948 book I discovered at our University South Asian Library - so when I took hold of that book self-published by the Ramana ashram of 1948 I literally got a Shakti transmission of electrical energy!!! Quite amazing. And that book - an edition of "Who Am I?" - has a photo of the necessary kundalini energy that needs to rise up from the base of the spine to the head and then down to the right side of the heart as the "secret pinhole" to the formless awareness.
That's another problem with the Westerners that Poonjaji pointed out - the Westerners would go to India to study with H.W.L. Poonja, the main protege of Ramana Maharshi - but the Westerners would just end up "shacking up." Whereas if you read Vivekananda's book series on yoga, his book on "Jnana Yoga" explains it's the highest level of yoga only after Raja yoga. So Ramana Maharshi assumed a person would be celibate and vegetarian, etc. - and the kundalini is a necessary foundation along with celibacy of the mind as well. So for example I discovered a traditional Brahmin priest training manual - in a used bookstore - and the book stated that if a Brahmin priest made EYE CONTACT with a female then 3 days of purification ritual was required. So obviously Westerners have no concept even of the necessary discipline required to achieve true Jnana meditation.
Interesting stuff. I wonder whether the brain changes from mindfulness meditation are lasting or require continual practice.
Hi Jan Miklaszewicz. The video "Does mindfulness lead to persistent nonduality?" and the 140 comments to it, discuss how "mindfulness meditation" doesn't lead to nonduality.
If you do self-inquiry, described in that video, and in the blogpost "What is the 'Direct Path' to nondual awakening? What is self-inquiry? @ happinessbeyondthought.blogspot.com/2012/08/what-is-direct-path-to-nondual.html
only then can you reach persistent nonduality.
BTW, if you look under "Show More" in any of my videos, you'll see links to books, blog, articles, website, etc., all free in some format.
stillness
What was that guy's question/comment about Einstein at 36:30?
Hi +Austin Hicks. Honestly don't remember other than i was already over-time because of the delays from the A/V fiasco up-front, which i largely edited out. i had more material to cover, and i knew we could cover it after the talk ended in a few minutes. Discussions went on for some time afterwards on many topics but i just don't recall specifically what his comment was. stillness
Gary Weber Hi Gary, is the footage of the Q&A available anywhere?
Thank you. I think this is an early taste of the evolutionary future of human culture.
Hi Strange Dog. Yes, IMHO, if it isn't that, i don't see a bright future for our species.
The video "Upgrading Your Mental Operating System" @ th-cam.com/video/EK8pcUt4gio/w-d-xo.html and the blogpost "Uninstall your outdated OS1, upload your new OS2" @ happinessbeyondthought.blogspot.com/2015/05/uninstall-your-outdated-os-1-upload.html give the logic and necessity for something like a new OS if we're going to continue to exist as a species.
Great you found it useful. BTW, if you look under "Show More" above, you'll see links to all of my "stuff", all free in some format. stillness
Than you
I think to a certain level you are right , I also was a polymath in my twenties then a range of hideous life( about 24 months all told of largactil and invasive psychiatric interventions largactil yuk who wants to be a lobster in a slow motion movies and continued very difficult experiences over the last 7-10 years , trapped in a ghetto psychologically "attacked" as the one who didn't drink , loss of all back teeth due to crown metal alloy poisoning and on but have recovered and moved .
I feel that what you are saying is a little like the pre 1940's type of scientific ideology ie an exclusive kind of "realization", that is yes abnormal states are part of it psychosis is a social construct and more so because the normal functioning fails or appears to actually the tenant of Jesus is happening because the desire for the "other"ie usually a pre God realized state , a state of unstable self realization is , this may or may not last but eventually is the person is surrounded or helped by accepting others this phase can and will give rise to realization proper ie No Self( "God- Realization").
As Upsani said I am a mad man , and Jesus as a child was seen even by his parents as one, the western materialist mind is the problem it is immature , the inconceivable isn't welcome because it cannot be known, autistic dilemmas are evident today because of this I feel rapid oscillation between self realization and fear contraction and re closure into intellectual; paradigms and on , mainly in males !
The mystical state if like the bridge the bridge which Odin welcomed Thor back through you are my son, or as Jesus "This- IS- MY Son", ie listen to him, the true the genuine real Mc coy. According to science being raised form the "dead state" is impossible!
But Science is very useful as Meher Baba said in and NOT outside the service of Spirit! That is not really in making endless distractions for a bunch of narcissistic rich kids, faster cars bigger Tv's and video games to play with or bombs and missiles to kill others with etc.
Infantile seems to sum up Western culture en mass at the moment, are we just going to "F...well grow up and stop all of this nonsense and just start being more open and more caring about those unfortunate enough not to have made it , or beleaguered in some way.
Thoughts ideas suggestions welcome.
I must say I'm surprised to find a schizophrenic in the comment section. Jokes aside, I have no idea what you just wrote.
Too much empirical mind is the Actual obstacle in the high quality of meditation practices. Western mind is always prone for this.. here, in India I have seen many uneducated people easily meditate without much of 'Practice' and thinking too much..
This works to the extent that blood pressure and focus are improved. Any so-called benefit of a spiritual/mystical nature is just wishful thinking. This mystical experience would also be a product of the subconscious mind. IMHO
Wow, can’t figure out how thoughts and ideas work from an empirical frame of view, big surprise
Hi Daniel Thompson. Great that you found it useful. If you look under "Show More" in any of my videos, you'll see links to all of my material, all free in some format, including website, blog, books, etc. you might find the popular video, What 'no thoughts' means...3 different kinds of thoughts" @ th-cam.com/video/WnWxCgiZfrc/w-d-xo.html useful. stillness
hmm its the bills that keep the blahblah alive for me.
Hi. Yes, stories about paying the bills does keep the "blah, blah" alive.
If you look at those stories, take them one at a time and see if they are 1) true, 2) can you be certain they are true, 3) how do you feel when you have them, 4) how would feel without them, and 5) is it just as likely they are completely false, i.e. 180 degrees out. This is the powerful work of Byron Katie.
stillness
@@GaryWeber Still trying to understand your guidance. Ultimately, jn the Real Reality, they are not true - understood. The mInd understands it. But in the "vyavaharika satyam" , the parmarthika sayam keeps getting drowned out. Need to ponder this some more. thanks. I'll check out Byron Katie.