You've made a lot of really good points in this video, about a topic that deserves discussion. But one comment really floored me: when you mentioned that people would dismiss sexual violence as "you're not the target audience," which implies that there IS a target audience is indeed troubling. Thanks for the video - it deserves more views.
I'm a tall, muscular, good-looking man. I have fortunately not had to deal with sexual violence but, through the years, I've been unashamedly stared at, objectified, groped, had to endure uncalled for advances, and had to suffer a few people in positions of power over me at work drooling over me. Mostly men, but also women. So, in line with your comment about people arguing "but this is realistic!", I have often wondered... Fantasy novels are usually jam-packed with hunks of one sort of another, yet none of the dozens I've read about has gone through an even remotely similar situation. The vast majority of them never have to deal with it at all. Nobody dares to grope them or even establish physical contact - where's the realism there. And when one suffers uncalled for advances, they just brush it off saying: "oh, another pervert, whatever...". Or their friends make jokes about it in the line of: "that's what you deserve for looking like that" - and the hunk "realistically" smiles on cue. Well, it is not something enjoyable. Not if it's a man, not if it's a woman - the gender is irrelevant. Not when a security guard is groping your ass with the excuse of looking for who knows what. Your ego doesn't get a gratifying boost as authors seem to believe. Just because you are a man doesn't mean it cannot affect you. You don't just brush it off or stay there flummoxed thinking: "Is this actually happening?". You know what is happening, you know why, and it disgusts you. It is extremely awkward and it puts you in very uncomfortable situations - specially when you do not want to or cannot use your actual physical capacities to "repel the repellent". Just thinking how my blood boils when something as "light" as this happens to me, like you I also fret whenever I see an author is going for the "shocking, realistic" sexual violence chapter because I can only imagine how much, much worse that would actually feel. How can they write so freely about it is something I'll never understand.
"unashamedly stared at, objectified, groped, had to endure uncalled for advances, and had to suffer a few people in positions of power over me at work drooling over me" Sorry to break it to you brother but you DID have to deal with sexual violence. It's coming from someone who survived through multiple rapes and incest. Don't downplay what you've been through! What you describe is part of rape culture, just because you are a man doesn't mean you can't be a victim of it. I hope you're okay. 🥺
Louder for the people in the back! I’m an ugly woman. The most attention I get is snickering laughter behind my back or complete ignoring. Versus my good looking counterparts. Any gender. The things said about them make my skin crawl to the point that I’m grateful I’m not attractive. And fantasy descriptions of men give me the same ick. Paragraphs(sometimes pages) dedicated to telling how perfect their bodies are. It’s creepy and voyeuristic. If such descriptions were made about women, there would be an uproar. And for good reason. If something can be gender-flipped and be disturbing then it was disturbing all along. And yes your personal experiences count as sexual violence. The comments are harassment and unwanted touch in such circumstances is assault. Please know that using such labels for yourself does NOT take away from the experiences of women victims. But it adds to the many, many drowned out voices of men experiencing the same thing. Women are often not believed when they report sexual harassment and men are believed even less. That doesn’t make any of their experiences less real.
@@littlestarshepherd Mate, I hope *you* are ok - you're the one who's been through really rough times. I'm ok. I've learned to handle or cope with these events, but because they happen (fortunately) months apart they always seem to catch me with my guard down - which makes me feel like a fool and only infuriates me more. Oh well... Work in progress!
@@dragletsofmakara1120 You raise a very interesting point. I once was in a bookshop browsing a book and suddenly jumped when someone pinched my butt. I wheeled around, half praying it was someone I knew, half wondering if I had the energy to make a scene if needed. I found myself looking down on an elderly lady, half my size, with a walker. The situation was so preposterous that I just laughed and asked her: "Really?". She just mischievously smiled at me and went on. Honestly, at that moment what I thought was: "Whatever grannie. Enjoy it". But on my way back home I thought that, were our genders flipped and an old man had pinched a young woman's butt, everybody would agree that it was something gross and inappropriate. But because I'm a strong man and she's a defenseless old lady then it's ok and even funny? Maybe it is, I really don't know. Most of all, I would want not to have to think about it in the first place! Also, thanks for saying that using such labels for myself does not take away from the experiences of women victims. I've often wondered if I'm just a whiner and what I have to go through sometimes is what half the population simply calls: "the everyday of a woman".
@@isaac_romanov oh geez! I cringed reading your story. That is 100% assault. But you’re right. That would socially be seen as comical. Old lady vs big handsome man. Kinda similar how a slap used to be portrayed in older tv. Man hitting woman - tense drama. Woman hitting man - comedy. Thankfully that has changed in recent years. And I can only hope that such harassment is taken more seriously for all genders. But my faith in humanity is in the dumps which is why I read fantasy. To get away from reality. And it’s not working.
Fantastic video Tori, I'm late to watching but you hit several key points here. The biggest ones for me are the shock value and romanticizing of it. I've a similar issue with spicy scenes in romance books. They often don't add to the the characters relationships/developments but rather rely on shock, or thrill and often include sexual violence with justifications. There are several books I've not attempted to read due to reviews including mention of sexual violence. It's very rarely done with purpose to the overarching story, character development, or empathy. No single event in one's life will define a person's story, but rather a vast collection of experiences and the individual's own choices in life as they grow. Some experiences can live with us longer, leave scars and make it harder to move forward. Using those horrible experiences as a form of entertainment with no value to a story feels cheap, repetitive, and oftentimes forgettable amid the grandeur of the tale. Again, fantastic video on the topic Tori and thank you sharing all this!
THANK YOU. The wish-fulfillment is something I see in (especially grimdark) fantasy and horror and it makes me immediately wary of the author and anyone who really champions that book. You mention that SV is experienced by all genders, and it makes me think of how few times I've seen it represented as against men in comparison to against women. It's one of the reasons the excuses of "it's just realistic" or "it's a grimdark world, bad things happen" always rang false to me. If it was truly either of those things, why is the balance so skewed? Thank you so much for talking about this despite the pushback and retaliation (which I've experienced as well.) I hope it helps open a more thoughtful discussion in the community, and one without the knee-jerk reactions we've all experienced. Also 100% with you on focusing stories more on the characters healing and coping with situations than presenting the situations for shock (or worse) value.
Thank you so much for your comment, Cal! There are so many facets to this topic, I could go on forever. The comments have been encouraging, and I'm glad so many people are continuing to talk about it.
It really hit me when you said you have to get emotionally guarded because you can just feel that the character is going to get SAed. Great video. Glad you made it, because if I tried it would be a much worse video
Thank you for watching, Jake. I spent a lot of time trying to figure out why I was always emotionally distanced from most female characters in the books I read, and I think that is a big part of it.
I loved this especially how you articulated it. This is a conversation that needs to happen. I see so many books where people don’t mentioned the issue in how women are portrayed or the sexual violence and it needs to be said
Fantastic video, Tori, glad you made it. The "its realistic" defense is honestly so crazy and is only trotted out for this specific thing. You know what else is realistic? All of your internal struggles being solved at the same time you defeat a big bad villain. But its the end of the book so I guess we got it figured out! Another thing that's realistic is shitting your pants in the middle of a battle but I have never seen that happen in a book (thankfully). Where are all the toxic commenters at who bemoan the lack of realism with pants shitting 😱😱
Thank you thank you thank you. Finally someone calling this out. The obsession that male fantasy writers have with women experiencing SA is straight up pathological. It’s like they’re compelled to put it in their stories at every turn. And to make matters worse, any time a female character goes through something traumatic, it /has/ to be SA, and on the flip side, male characters almost never experience SA for some reason. It’s literally only the women. Setting the insane prevalence aside (again, pathological obsession!!), the way it’s portrayed is horribly insensitive 99% of the time and either dwells on gratuitous detail for literally no reason, and/or focuses primarily on the feelings of the men close to the woman who experienced SA rather than on her own trauma. It’s incredibly misogynistic. People will of course defend these portrayals as “just being realistic” or “making a point about how bad life is,” but let’s just be honest, that’s bullshit. One in three women will experience SA in their life time, and half of fantasy readers are women. By writing SA in the gratuitous way they do, authors are effectively barring a good chunk of their potential audience from even being able to stomach the book. The problem is that books with a ton of SA against women aren’t written /for/ those women. They’re written specifically for men who haven’t experienced SA, without regard for any other audience, in some strange attempt to demonstrate how bad SA is to people who haven’t been through it. Meanwhile, people who have actually been through SA are left unable to engage in the work because it’s often too retraumatizing. It’s a decentering of the very people whose experiences they’re appropriating for entertainment value or to make some shitty point that nobody needed to be made. It’s gatekeeping, really.
I agree, it's incredibly prevalent. However I would say that this topic is not limited to male fantasy authors. I've seen it everywhere in fantasy, regardless of the author's gender, and often portrayed similarly. I intentionally kept my focus gender-neutral in the video because I think it's a widespread problem. You're absolutely right, a lot of SA scenes are not written with survivor experiences in mind, and I am hoping that we can have more conversations about how to handle scenes like this responsibly! I should probably do a follow up video to talk about fantasy novels that DO handle these topics intentionally and responsibly, because there are some really fantastic authors who have, and it's equally important to spotlight them.
Thank you, for this excellent video, Tori! I very much agree that we need to discuss this more and that as a community we need to gain more awareness how we talk about this topic. I made two videos on violence so far.One specifically on Erikson and Malazan and the other a discussion with Philip Chase and Varsha about violence and fantasy in general. Both touch on sexual violence as well but each time I had the feeling that maybe a separate discussion might be needed. So I'm very glad you made this video!
First of all, a BIG thank you for this video, you rocked this one 🤍 As someone who has (luckily) never experienced sexual violence myself, I always felt nervous about making statements about how events like these are depicted in my stories. And much as I hate to admit it, it took me a while to even realise how messed up it is that we have all been conditioned to think this is a normal/realistic part of a female character's journey. It's people like you speaking up loud and clear about these issues that have opened my eyes and helped me become more critical over the years, which I am so grateful for. So thanks again, you said it all beautifully. You are a true inspiration in so many ways, keep being you 🥰
Great video and thank you for talking about this. I started steering clear of grimdark when I read one too many books that used SA as "set dressing" to show that it was a rough part of town or some other kind of crap. And I have definitely gotten flack for DNFing a book because of it (luckily not from BookTube). I appreciate you spreading awareness that this is definitely a problem beyond being a simple cliché.
Thank you for this much needed video, Tori ❤ We share the same issues on this topic, and you put my own feelings into words perfectly. I love this genre, but the “you’re not the target audience” comments when it’s about my dislike of the portrayal of sexual violence in some books drive me crazy!
Finally you made this video! I always enjoy books that are able to write female characters that grow and change and have traumatic experiences without the need to resort to SA. LPQ is a fantastic inspiration and a shining example of this. I personally have some experience with reading books that don’t handle it super well, where the woman’s story is consumed by the horrific act, but that’s mostly because I stay away from books that I hear do it gratuitously, for the most part. At the very least they sink on my TBR. There are so many more ways to show the world is dark or grisly without resorting to this. And I’m working at how to write some of those now (ish).
I totally agree, Pete. And even if SA is included (because it is a reflection of something that people experience in reality), how do we portray it responsibly and give the character in question an arc and personality beyond the trauma they've experienced? Thank you so much for watching!
@@ToriTalks2 i feel like part of portraying it responsibly is giving the character time to grow beyond it, overcome it in their own way. So doing it at the end of a story is detrimental to this, typically.
I think that the reactions to people pointing out stuff like this, is incredibly interesting. This is not entirely on topic, but still related, so I wanted to mention it. Because i read rather widely and therefore also watch a variety of different subsections of BookTube, i get to compare the (adult high) fantasy side of BookTube to other niches. One thing that i have noticed, is that content warning are pretty much non existent on adult fantasy BookTube. In non-fantasy BookTube, it's really not uncommon that people give a list of content warnings in every review (either in the video itself or in the description), or at the very least, if a book deals with some darker topics, they say to look them up. I rarely see this in the adut epic fantasy spheres, even though (or maybe because???🤔) heavy topics such as sexual violence are incredibly prevalent. I've even seen multiple people actively speaking against the idea of content warnings, which is just incredibly interesting to me.
I think some of it is how people value the shock of those things that are triggering to others. or rather, people's opinions on spoilers. compared to other niches of booktube, I think the adult fantasy community tends to be more spoiler averse, and there are people who would argue trigger warnings are major spoilers. there's probably a better way to do it, but I personally haven't found a balance I like. The other part of it is that it doesn't register in their minds all of the time. Strange, but its true. it's definitely happened to me, it's happened to some people I was just talking to about this subject. I've read books where there's SA and I recoil in disgust, skip over the descriptor bits, move on, and then forget about it because I don't want to dwell on it. there are some books where I've had a more visceral, triggering reaction to these scenes, but that's not every time. But I try to make up for it by doing more listening to the thoughts and experiences of my friends and paying attention when I can in books. this has all been a gradual evolution over time, an interesting journey.
I agree that content warnings can be helpful, but I also agree with the general sentiment that a laundry list of content warnings can get overdone and spoilery. I think including something generic in content warnings is okay, but I've also seen authors take it way too far and include every little thing that could possibly be questionable. It's a tough line to walk, for sure. Either way, I definitely think including relevant warnings in reviews when we talk about the books we read can be super helpful to other readers as well.
@@ToriTalks2 I wasn't trying to day one is necessarily better than the other, just stating something that i've noticed. I agree that some of the lists are waaaay too long. It's a tough balance, but one that we need to think about.
Very important and insightful video Tori, the idea I often go back to when I see the argument for sexual violence or homophobia in books is like you say "its realistic" - but if you're happy with elves and dragons and magic you can't believe a queernormative world exists?!
So well said, and such great and important points that I can really relate to and 100% agree with. I appreciate your talking about this openly SO MUCH, Tori! ♥
As a guy I avoid reading books with strong sexual violence. I find those books easy to avoid. I thought I read a lot of fantasy, so I do not understand this prevalence you're speaking of. I don't have as much time to read, so when I pick up a book or series I have thoroughly looked up reviews on it so I have an understanding of the themes.
Thank you for this video. Male writers using SA/SV in the name of 'realism' and 'grimdark' is straight out offensive. It's sad to see many male booktubers defend graphic sexual violence against women saying that "the author's intention is to sensitise male readers to the horrors of sexual violence." I've seen this defence used every time R. Scott Bakker's books come up! It's also infuriating when male authors use SV almost as a rite of passage into adulthood for female characters: "I never would've become this tough badass woman if i hadn't been sexually assaulted." I've never heard of a single woman IRL being grateful for SA in any form, much less claim that it was the making of them.
I have not read Baker’s books, but I have heard from reviews how they are set in a fictional but historically inspired Earth (centuries or maybe a millennium ago). Since sexual violence might have had a very different outlook on it back then compared to now in terms of morality, how would you prefer Baker to handle that aspect? To not have it included, to have it included but downplaying the rate at which it may have occurred, or something else? I ask this as a Male writer who is watching this video to understand how to approach this topic in a better way in any future stories I may write. I do not want to add to bad representations of this topic.
I think that generally pointing to "male authors" isn't necessarily helpful in this case. I know of quite a few male authors who handle this topic exceptionally well and with intentionality. And there have been some books I've dnfed by female authors for the same reasons. I tried to keep the video gender neutral in that respect. The core issue that you mentioned I absolutely agree with: using SV as a "rite of passage". That was a great way of putting it, and I think there are a lot of books that unfortunately lean into that.
Very well said Tori! I completely agree, the amount of this kind of content we see is just way too much. It’s a very important topic and should be explored, but it feels almost par for the course at times and often handled not completely in a nuanced way. My wife is always saying in out bookclub ‘why in these worlds where dragons, magic, spaceships, wormholes etc exist, must we always have women being abused, objectified and experiencing misogyny?! Is it so hard to think that women exist and at the same level as men?!’ And I couldn’t agree more!
I feel like it has almost become an emotional cheap shot to spark some kind of reaction in the reader. Either that , or authors think that experiencing “that” facilitates character growth and further strength. There are so many other ways to have an emotional moment with characters & so many ways to show character growth. ESPECIALLY in fantasy. You created this whole fictional world in your head. You have endless options. And this is what you go for? Can it be done “well” (& I use this term loosely) of course. But at this point, it’s become a given that female characters will most likely experience something like this.
Thank you for making this video. This is not any easy topic to put your opinion on the internet about, especially as a survivor. You stated your reasoning in a professional manner. Sexual violence is one of the main reasons I have DNF’d one of the most popular modern fantasy series twice. It’s not the only reason, but it played a significant role. Sexual violence bothers me, especially when it is not needed to tell the story in my opinion.
Thank you for sharing this video Tori. I do wonder if so much of poorly portrayed SA comes from a hamfisted response to the calls against "fridging." Regardless, a decision to include a scene like this ought to be contemplated with intentionality and understanding, rather than ever being "because it's easy." Thank you. You so very eloquently said it all.
Thank you for sharing this Tori. I recently read a very popular fantasy book and was taken back with the amount of SV and how it was portrayed. This is a needed discussion and I think you’ve done a great job with it.
Love this video, and love the responses I'm seeing from people in the comments. It's literally a trope at this point that in order to be a "strong female character" a woman must first be brought to her lowest possible state to build herself back up again... and for most authors that boils down to "she gets r*****." I totally hear you with the timer in your head. It's as if its a requirement of the Female Hero's Journey. What also surprises me is how it seems to be just as prevalently used by female authors. I don't know if that's supposed to make it more acceptable, or if its somehow "better" or more thoughtfully written, but at the end of the day its all the same. I hate that that's what "female trauma" is always reduced to. I don't want my daughter to learn that for girls "trauma" means one thing and one thing only. "Your greatest strength can only be attained after a man has forced himself on you!" Brilliant life lesson. Countless authors seem to REEEALLY wanna make sure we've learned it!
Great points, thank you so much for watching and commenting! I agree that while SV is a horrific experience and should be given the gravity that it deserves, it does far too often become the default for "character growth." And I also have noticed it in fantasy written by men and women, it's definitely not a single faceted issue.
What a great video! Thank you for being open and vulnerable and discussing this topic. I've never experienced SV in real life, but ever since i was a young teen, i noticed the prevalence of it in fantasy. I often find it's used to make a world or villain seem evil and dark and scary, which totally sidelines the character's emotions and experience. As a woman reading this in fantasy, it's exhausting. Yep, we get it, women are the target of SV in the real world a lot. Why do we need to be beaten over the head with it in fiction as well? Especially when it's just added for "flavor" or just tossed in there for shock value.
I’m very much with you in that it feels far overused as a shock value plot device. I cringe when it comes up and don’t blame anyone for not reading further unless it’s handled by a skilled writer that knows how to handle such an issue. This was something present in Sara Douglass’ novels, but she was one to not shy away from depictions of sex or violence. And it was obvious it wasn’t done for glorifying the act, but with an understanding that it is an act of evil.
I'd like everyone in the fantasy community to watch this. Maybe more than once to really let it sink it. Thank you for sharing your thoughts so eloquently.
Hey Tori thanks for the mature well thought out video. I especially appreciate the point that it’s not the topic it’s how it’s being covered by the author. I find the topic of the “male gaze” to be confusing and a bit frustrating because rarely do I see it applied consistently or in context, HOWEVER when it comes to SA in books there’s no excuse for romanticizing it or showing it in any way that makes it less of a crime.
Well done video - such a difficult topic. Handled with grace 👍👍👍 I sometimes wonder if them modern media penchant for making 'violence" cool and synonymous with action bleeds into portrayal of SA as well. The amount of people who get "icky" about on-page sex but call SA "realistic" makes me think this is a trained response from media. The video reminded me of some of the studies done for thrillers and procedurals especially where violence against women is highly sensationalized.
I'm glad you made this video. I hope it inspires some more authors to approach the subject with more sincerity. Definitely not something that should be taken lightly.
Thanks for sharing such articulate, considerate thoughts. I agree with it all. I don’t have much to add, as it’s emotional, but so glad you made this video
I hate SA as solely charcter growth, it normalizes trauma as "character building". Nope people can build character other ways. And it's rarely depicted well with nuance and grossly it's often framed through patriarchy ( my wife, my sister, my love interest yet often a male lead reaction is centralized and worse love is often the solution)
Thank you! A great video, with a lot of valuable and interesting perspectives. And also put very concisely and clear. It really invites to exploring the topic and how different authors as well as readers handle and experience the topic. I'm actually really sorry to hear that it is so prevalent that you cannot read a book without continuously having to steel yourself for what is coming. And I can totally agree that it is unnecessary to be this prevalent as well. Although I feel I'm quite aware when it happens in books, I'm always curious whether how that compares to the experience of others. So during the video I felt I really wanted some examples of books that fall into different categories to understand what you find well-handled, lazy or gratuitous, but I guess that is always subjective and therefore besides the point of the video. Personally, on a less physical and more emotional level, I also can get a really awful feeling from scenes or books that validate toxic, problematic and inappropriate relationship dynamics. And although their effects in real life may be less obvious and impactful than SA/SV, I feel they are also much wider and more easily embraced or in some subgenres of Romantasy, even revered. Anyway, I think it is so important to discuss and be aware how we handle different types of violence and I think this video is a very important contribution to the discussion of SA/SV in fiction.
Great video, Tori. I agree, i think its strange that sensitivity of any kind is now seen as an inherent weakness to a lot of people, I swear we're going backwards now. How do we grow as people if we can't be vulnerable with the people we trust, and more importantly, ourselves? Agreed on the importance of the HOW/WHY. There's an infamous and rightfully criticised scene in the Greatcoats series, that objectively speaking is S.A (female perpetrator, male victim whose slipping in and out of consciousness that explicitly says NO) but its never treated like a sexual assault nor explored that deeply from what I remember, and nothing like that (at least in a sexual sense) happens again, its so weird I'm still baffled by that decision to this day. It didn't even need to happen. The story would not have changed that much (if at all).
Totally agree, Rogue. Being aware, appropriately sensitive, and empathetic is a sign of a mature, healthy person. Vulnerability is not a weakness at all. Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts and watching!
Great video, Tori! For both authors and readers I think. I agree on all points. I personally feel violence of any type should be handled with care in stories, but sexual violence in particular hits so close to home for so many that it is an authorial responsibility to take it seriously and not make it gratuitous. Thanks for speaking on this.
Thank you for watching, Zammar! Totally agree. Heavy topics are important to include and express in any genre, but equally as important is handling them responsibly.
Thank you Tori! While I do occasionally include sexual violence in some of my works as a way of catharsis, I've kept it almost completely out of my fantasy because the prevalence in the genre is so frustrating. There's no need for it 90% (or more tbh) of the time it's included especially when it's described in detail to a point it feels gratuitous and cheap.
I think it's completely valid to include it when it's done that way or with very specific intentions that aren't just "character drama". And I know that you approach it with a lot of responsibility! We need more authors like you! I totally agree with you!
As an unpublished writer, I have never and will never write an SA scene. I'm someone who admittedly gets bothered by very little. I've read a few harsh scenes from certain series, I've seen some rough horror movies where that kind of content is shoe-horned in. I'll never put it in my stories, and I'll go out of my way to just NOT have it in my stories, even if by ten other authors it would be, even if "in historical context there would be." I have one project that's focused on Orcs. I think it's fair to say there'd be a lot of people who would assume "oh yeah, orcs, they'd totally be the type to...." but my reaction is like, hold up, no. In *my* world, Orcs have very different values than humans. Just the mere attitude of sexuality for them vs. humans is so vastly different that the very NOTION of SA is a foreign concept to an Orc, it just doesn't cross their minds - in their society you fight your enemy, you end your enemy, the end. Quick, efficient. I *get* why some authors include it, but it's quite easy to not have it. And like most sane people, my response to "maybe its not your target audience" is... "maybe the target audience needs social services called on them."
Thank you for making this video 😊. IMO this has been rarely done well and wish it wasn’t in the books I read. I understand it’s a part of society, and agree with you that alot of the time it is either glorified, or made to make the book “ Darker “. Lord of the Rings is probably one of the top selling, if not the most top selling books of all time… and none of that was in there
@@ToriTalks2 Well, almost completely, there are some dark implications about how the new breed of Uruk-hi came to be (and it's not being grown from pods in the earth) - but point taken, the reader is well removed from the experience. Tolkien did well for not putting the reader through awful experiences of war, while still dealing with many of the emotional consequences of it.
Great video, Tori. The implications of "you're not the target audience" really are jaw-dropping. On that same note - the "bUt ITs reALIstIc!!1!" argument is so transparently hypocritical. If it's all for realism's sake, then how come we hardly ever have to read about grown men being raped and sexually humiliated, which regularly happens in war and war-like scenarios as well? If an author is that committed to realism that he feels compelled to write about SA against a woman in every other chapter, why isn't he writing about the men as well? Could it possibly be because that wouldn't be as titillating to him and/or to the basement-dwellers that make up a big part of his readership? One can't help but wonder...
Ah yes! I'm so glad someone's finally talking about it...well ok, Bookborn has talked about this before too. But I'm glad to see you're talking about it. This is something I've wanted to address for a while myself, but A. I don't have the right words for it yet and B. I'd feel really awkward talking about it by myself since I am a straight white dude, and sure that doesn't mean I can't have opinions on this subject, but I think it would be valuable if I had a discussion with a woman about the subject. I digress though, this was a great discussion and video. Keep up the good work.
Bookborn has done some great content in this area, yes! It's hard to find the right words for it, that's why it took me so long to actually make the video. Thank you for watching, Britton!
Thank you for making this. I've been thinking about this topic a lot, as another survivor, especially since reading Deadhouse Gates last year. Most other fantasy that contains sexual violence, I have found severely wanting since. My first shot across across the bow is that using "it's realistic!" as an excuse in the context of a fantasy novel is just idiotic. If someone is fine with a magic system or a world-building structure that violates our laws of physics or whatever, and then use realism as an excuse for a gratuitous assault, after which the victim continues to have little agency or outlet for their suffering, then I question...a lot of things about that person, at the end of the day.
I'm sorry you have to carry that, Groofay. And I totally get what you mean about Deadhouse Gates setting a standard. If you haven't read Daughter of the Forest, I also recommend that one. Thank you for sharing your thoughts!!!
@@ToriTalks2 Thanks for reminding me of Daughter of the Forest! I've been meaning to read it ever since you did months ago, and I'm looking to some time this fall.
I liked the point you made around the 7:00 point. It’s almost like the they a defined by what they were and not by who they are. And I may or may not have “stolen” from The Chosen when Phillip was talking to Matthew as they were going to dry the wood.
Tori, thank you publishing this. I am interested in the subject because I definitely include this in my writing. I'm an equal opportunity offender, but it's there and it's intentional. Your perspective will make me better at what I'm trying to do. I don't want to revel in it. I do want to discuss the very ugly ends of the people I write about. I'll think on this for a bit. Again, thank you.
I think that's a good way to approach it. Layered and intentional approaches to every heavy topic we deal with in our books is the way to go. Thanks for watching!
You know, it would be incredibly helpful if you would’ve used the examples of what you’re describing. you’ve used the word prevalent so many times in this video and the whole time I’m sitting here thinking, we must be reading very different fantasy. I genuinely cannot think of a single example of what you’re describing, especially glorification of this heinous act. I know you probably don’t want to call out particular titles, but I am genuine at a loss… I read quite a bit of fantasy and I just can’t remember coming across what you’re describing… I don’t read the young adult at all, is that it? If it makes a difference, I am a woman and usually pretty sensitive to these issues
I made a conscious choice when making this video to avoid calling out specific authors or titles. I realize that makes things more vague, but that was an intentional choice because my goal with the video wasn't to point fingers, but to hopefully spark more conversation about this topic and how it can be handled within a genre that I love. I'm genuinely really glad that you've found so many great titles that don't lean on sexual violence! Young Adult does include a lot of very dubious SA and SA adjacent content, but it is also quite common in adult fantasy as well. There are, of course, authors who handle it really well, and I've really been grateful to find them. Juliet Marillier's Daughter of the Forest, and Steven Erikson's Deadhouse Gates are two examples.
@@ToriTalks2 thank you Tori for the answer. I do understand you not wanting to name names, I also don’t want you to feel that I doubt you’re very strong emotion on the subject. I’m simply trying to understand… Perhaps the age difference makes our perceptions so varied…. It certainly is an important subject, I’ll think on it much more.
The Warded Man. Female in a village, everyone loves her, she's a healer. She wanders out and is assaulted. A comic book writer once said he went to a lot of trouble of making a likable woman so when she was killed you would feel it more. So, it's a tool. Well, so what? I did not sit back after that moment in The Warded Man and think, "Damn those bad guys!" I stopped and wondered why the author thought that was needed. The author of Kick-Ass said of the villains and such actions, 'You're supposed to hate these guys." Well no we are not. I LOVE Darth Vader. But I would not if he had assaulted Leia in the cell. We love our villains. It's up to us to hate them or not. There was one rapey villain in a book where he was going to do the deed, then stopped and decided to keep her for afterwards. I thought maybe that was a step in the right direction. It did not have to happen and it didn't. I guess I would ask all authors to just stop and take a minute to ask themselves if they really need to do this in this moment. On a lighter note, though related, in Mad Max his wife and child are run over by a biker gang so Max freaks out, gets in his bad-ass outfit, in his bad-ass car and gets bad-ass revenge. I guess you are not going to get that reaction from unpaid speeding tickets. "Those bastards! I'll get those fines from them!" Even though tools are needed to set of the heroes so they will go get those villains, or else they just sit around working out, I think there are plenty to use that are not sexual assault. I do realize it's not real. But that does not mean I want to read it, nor does it excuse the fact that the violence against women in fiction FAR outweighs violence against men.
You're exactly right, Montie. Asking yourself, "what does this add to the character/story? Is it necessary? Why am I including it?" are all incredibly important questions during the writing process with any heavy topic.
Thank you for doing this, i have been in that room where someone says get over it, it's fact of life, just get on with it, stop expecting anything to change etc etc. By and large in the SyFy I have read its treated as just something that happens to a generally female character that propels her into the next story point. But we could equally say this about war injurys etc, they are something that happens. Yes it happens. But how it's handled in the story is important in the real world, I would prefer if authors talked through it more, beginning, middle and recovery so people who don't understand the bad experiences can feel the effects of SV, life altering injury etc. When it's just for effect I DNF and that's for female authors just as much for male.
Thank you so much for your comment! I totally agree. It happens on both sides of the aisle in terms of writing, and I love that you brought up the comparison to war injuries. I think oftentimes authors take more care to show the progression of overcoming and healing from injuries than they do when they include SV.
Thank you for talking about this uncomfortable and unfortunately personal topic. Fantasy is an escape, and while it's up to the author what is in the book, it is up to us to read it and enjoy it. Humans enjoy different things to different degrees, but magic, winning against all odds, slaying evil characters (y'know, fantasy) appeals to most fantasy readers, right? Even death to main characters and cliffhangers. These carry a heavy emotional response initially, but later resolve into anticipation. Will this character be avenged? Was their death in vain? What will the next chapter in this story hold? SA does NOT resolve into any positive emotion for most fantasy enjoyers, certainly not the aforementioned anticipation. A main character's death will circle around to evoking a positive response; a main character being SA'd is just putting putting poison in the medicine and ruining our aforementioned escape. If you DO enjoy content with SA, I would recommend taking a look within and see if that's something you need to address. Otherwise, there is a darker corner of the internet and the arts for you, but it does not need to be normalized in the very broad genre that is fantasy.
I think about this topic in the same way as other horrific violence, such as murder, torture, etc. etc. It's not like all other types of violence or torture is in one category of my brain, while sexual violence is a separate category to itself - (in my mind). If it serves a purpose (I think) it should be there - whether it's on the page or alluded to. Same as other terrible stuff. Of cause, if you don't like reading that, that is totally fair and understandable. I'm not your supervisor. And I can understand why this might be a sensitive topic to many people. After all, sexual violence is something far more people fear or have experienced compared to, say, having half your teeth meticulously removed with a tiny chisel, like Glokta from The First Law. I completely understand the part about it being super off-putting, if it feels gratuitous or is meant to be somehow "sexy". I bounce off of that immediately. (Except maybe with Song of Ice and Fire, if that counts as this kind of thing?). Although I still think such graphic gratuitous stuff is OK (though I would never read it), if it is very clearly presented as a form adult entertainment (or at least makes it clear that the work will feature this thing), from the get go. Like a book version of BDSM. I would assume that readers of such find it hot, only because they know it is fiction. The same way as practitioners of BDSM are no more likely to be actual sexual criminals, than people who have more vanilla sex - even if "consensual non-consent" is a part of the fantasy for them.
@@ToriTalks2 Thank you. I appreciate you replying. I know it's been a while, but I thought about this topic again, and wanted to add something. When it comes down to it, I think the "problematic" part, is when the book isn't.. aware of what it's doing. Like treating sexual assault too casually, too permanently defining for the person, as a cheap trick to ruse an emotion, or as some kind is messed up titillation for the reader (in a book that is not explicitly about that kinda thing). But this is true with all topics. For instance, including toxic relationships can be relevant, engaging and valuable - but genuinely framing toxic relationships as "romantic" or "passionate" (looking at you, Twilight), THAT is the thing I find problematic.
Thanks for this video essay. It has given me much to think about, and as a male reader, I know their is sexual violence, but it never sticks out to me.
Thanks so much for watching and adding to the conversation! I think it's important for any reader to be aware of the content choices in their reads and how these heavy topics are handled.
I'm male and asexual, so I'm very much a minority when it comes to the male experience. Reading sex scenes in general is a mixed bag for me (grimdark mostly,) but a shock value scene-especially if it's SA-is enough to make me quit an author entirely. The other thing that irks me is when SA is used as a device to show the heroic qualities of the MC when they step in and save the day. No follow up for the victim, no trauma to deal with; the story moves on. I'm writing a book with asexual themes, and unfortunately, SA is an issue that's prevalent in our community (mostly through coercion.) There is no way I could bring myself to address the issue directly, so I've used an analogy within the plot that I hope isn't lost on most readers.
Fantasy genre is essentially a genre that is obsessed with using extreme violence for thrills so it's not surprising it has lots of sexual violence too. It's sort of interesting that fantasy writers generally seem to be unable to not make their books about extreme violence. Like it makes sense there's lots of sexual violence in genre that is next to incapable of producing novels where a bunch of people isn't killed or if there isn't outright mass extreme violence like war.
I would disagree with a generalized statement that "fantasy is obsessed with using extreme violence for thrills". I do think that gratuitous content exists in the genre, but it also does in other genres. And I think oftentimes fantasy is a powerful genre that allows us to explore difficult topics in our history and world through a secondary lens, which can be beneficial in many ways.
I’ve actually been thinking about this kind of topic recently, how many sci fi or fantasy books are there that don’t have violence or death or assault as part of them? It feels like the entire genre has it in almost every story as a pre-requisite.
It is very prevalent, and unfortunately mirrors reality in many ways. And I think because fantasy often deals with stories about war or other major conflicts, violence and death are a natural byproduct of those kind of stories. And I don't think that's a bad thing, but HOW they are written matters. And I'm very grateful that we have more diversity in the subgenres of fantasy that is being highlighted. Stories without excessive violence are becoming more common, and I'm glad they exist for all the readers who love the genre but don't want such heavy content.
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Entertainment is so intertwined with fiction, that it's really hard to separate the subject matter of SA enough to present it in a way that elevates or justifies it being in the story. And that always makes me uncomfortable. The aim or goal of the book really frames that I guess. Is it exploitative or a genuine artistic attempt to illicit a certain response. I suppose we all have different thresholds and degrees though.
I suppose I choose literature that pretty much avoid such scenes. I read a lot of fantasy but I rarely encounter scenes of any kind of SV. There's a lot of literature that doesn't use that as a plot point. That said, I stopped reading one paranormal fantasy series where the female MC gets trapped and assaulted by a supernatural creature. That's where I draw my line. I also don't read crime fiction because of the depicted violence.
One of the cleverest ways i feel like sexual violence was portrayed was in the name of the wind, there's this scene in the book where Kvothe hears a child screaming while being raped, and while rationalizing why hes not helping him he implies that It happened to him once as well, and when the realization hit me i felt my stomach drop, mind you i was rereading it i didnt even catch it the first time
I unfortunately, cannot speak to the topic with a voice that offers any value (to me). When I read the castrations in Lonesome Dove-it made me actively queazy. And I imagine that the feelings are shared when referring to other forms of sexual violence prevalently committed on women in stories. I think you shouldn’t be judged for having your own personal taste, you’ve read wide and plenty to know what you do and do not like as a reader-and you are actively writing. As a writer myself, so far, it has been something I’ve stayed away from. If it comes up in my discovery, I always try to see if there are other avenues to go down first, but that is my personal choice. I can only think of one time it has, and I veered away and found something better. That said, I have had instances where violence in general feels gratuitous, but I tend to have a purpose for those sorts of things (aka a character getting their eyes stabbed out to communicate with another realm). It doesn’t make it right, but it does need to be handled with care. At the end of the day, you have your reasons for what you do and don’t enjoy. And it’s an interesting topic to bring up for discussion since the written word can reach levels of intimate detail and thought within a characters head that otherwise would be hard to convey. That alone offers new lenses to look at these hard hitting topics compared to other mediums. Great video-I know I likely didn’t add much to the discussion, but either way you brought up excellent points.
Thank you so much for watching and sharing your thoughts! Lonesome Dove has a lot of really uncomfortable scenes, for sure. I think being super intentional and aware of all the heavier content we include in our writing is important, regardless of the topic. And I agree too that a lot of violence in general can be used for shock value in fantasy, which isn't great either.
I've been reading fantasy books for a long time, but I'm getting more and more disappointed with the genre because of the amount of gratuitous violence authors have portrayed in their stories. I've been avoiding books classified as "epic fantasy" or "grimdark fantasy" because I already expect scenes like these (including violence against children, which is something that makes me quit reading immediately) to be inserted into the plot only as shock value or plot twists. As an aspiring male author, I've tried to be very careful about the way I approach heavier topics in my stories. Excellent video, excellent discussion, great arguments.
Thanks so much for watching! I definitely think these topics can be addressed in intentional, meaningful ways, and I want to continue to see that. But you're right, a lot of it is thrown in without the necessary gravity.
I really hate the "realism" angle (and I used to believe it when I was a teenager and I wanted to defend alan moore's weird obession with SA), it's not realistic if it's the only way many authors think they can create "interesting" female characters. it's not realistic when they don't write about male victims, or lots of other things we have in "real life" like lgbt folks, or non white people lol. let alone it's not realistic when they write about dragons.......
I am guessing one of your main issues with sexual violence against women in fantasy is not only that it makes you uncomfortable (understandably), but also because it doesn't serve the story in any meaningful way other than to have it? It is the issue I have with HBO, and their incessant needs to add sex and nudity to their shows (and inserted in scenes in adaptations where it was never in there) for the sake of the shock and awe and the belief it drives viewership, and they are "edgy." Thoughts?
Definitely a big factor. When SA is included in storytelling just to be there, or just to "make it more realistic", to me that is gratuitous and damaging. It cheapens the very real experiences of survivors and desensitizes the audience.
@@skippen it is in a show because it is not tv it is HBO aka we can show T&A. Back in the day HBO had a long running doc series called real sex and it was just an excuse to shew naked people. Showtime for years had softcore shows on late night along with softcore movies. None of it was about shock it wad about sex selling
Ok so I watched this video 4 times because I wanted to make sure I didn't misunderstand you. I think to have the discussion that you want to have you need to bite the bullet and either age restrict the video or be comfortable with getting it demonetized because you are dancing around what your actually trying to talk about. 1. The SV is the characters entire identity. And It's just thrown in there for shock value. You are absolutely right. It is a lazy storytelling and really doesn't add anything to the story. 3. Wish fulfillment This one is one that I REALLY think should exclusively only be in smut talking about it starts to get into kinks and how people feel about those are very different. With must smut the reader has a pretty good idea of what they're getting into and won't have that oh my god moment. Comments from the community 4. It's just realistic This is one that I laugh at because I hear this and it comes from a certain crowd (let's be real) but then they also complain when other topics like race, sexuality and stuff like that get brought up in stories and they say this is fantasy. I don't want to open a book and think about geopolitics or the struggles of the real world. So which is it? You want this to be realistic or escapism? 5. It can be Subjective and people can have different thresholds on handling some topics. This is the reason I said you need to have a deeper discussion about this than the one that you are currently having. You are absolutely right. I think this needs to be very nuanced conversation to be had. This specifically off the top of my head could stop so much book banning that is happening in schools and in public library's. But I'm not just saying you but a few other people are talking about it the same way you are and just leaving it there without ACTUALLY getting down to the meat and potatoes. I believe that we can have mature conversations about books that have come out without completely dog piling on specific authors That write the type of stories that you're talking about or scenes in the stories that they're talking about. Not giving any type of examples on what is too much for you or what is okay for you doesn't give anybody an in to what YOU think is ok and not ok. It's kind of frustrating to me, because I really want to have a conversation about this without judging anyone on what they think or how they feel. To be fair, this is the first video of yours I've seen. It just popped up on my feed so there is that but I hope you get what I'm saying. 6. Because your a woman you're to sensitive. As a black male in my 30s I can understand this And sympathize with you because I have been given that line my entire life also when talking about not having black main leads OR on the flip black characters being overtly hypersexualized. With that being said though I do believe that to things can be right at the same time. But this fits in with number 7. 7. You're not the target audience. (It use to be a way to connect a book to readers. But now it's a way to push readers away.) But gatekeeping isn't what you mean. So I love epic Fantasy that is my jam and I'm very comfortable in that genre. I like a little bit of grim dark and Don't care for low fantasy outside of the Dresden files and Harry Potter. So when I hear that there's this new genre that everybody loves called comfy fantasy I I knew the moment I heard about it. I had no interest in it. I'm fine with other people liking it and I'm cool with it getting a lot of attention right now. Personally to me that is an example of I am not the target audience for that specific genre. I wouldn't want any author to rewrite their story in that genre to accommodate towards me. This goes into the thing I was talking about earlier with me being a black male and as a kid or really as a young adult. Me wanting to see more black male leads and stories. As I got older though I realized that I need to look for the stories that have black leads in them instead of making authors shoehorn one into their story to make me happy. That's how we get horrible characters like Finn. Here's what I feel like is a fine example of SV is. In one of the later books for Malazan series there's a female soldier that gets SAed in a big battle. This doesn't happen from her perspective but from from one of her companions has he runs into a room after it happens. Somewhere on that chapter or the next chapter she finds and kills the man that did it. She talks with companion that found her about how she thought she was to strong to have something like that happen to her and how small she felt in the a situation. For the rest of that book she doesn't want to talk about it but then in the next book if I remember right its heavily implied that she talks about it with some of the other female soldiers. After that they go into another battle and she is a lot more brutal and vicious when fighting and it's clear that she's not enjoying it. Now she's not a main or secondary character in the story but I feel like that is a clear example of the horrible brutality of war. Now at this point in the series when this happens there has been so many other horrible things that have happened genocide the enslavement of whole cities and many other things. In my PERSONAL opinion someone should have known if this book series was a good fit for them or not so when that comes up I would be very surprised if that was the defining factor of this going to far or not. A bad example of SV is in the sword of truth is princess or queen that get kidnapped and SAed for a long time. Later she gets rescued and is understandably traumatized. If I remember correctly book or two later after a lot of healing treatment she starts to come back into her own to then be kidnapped again and have the same thing happened to her until her death. To me thats disgusting, gross and unnecessary. It fits with what you talked about in you first point. I stopped reading that book series before that happened however because I could see where the books where going and was like this is clearly not for me. With all of that being said I think it's more then fine with me not being the target audience because for most of my life I haven't been And I don't think you're trying to say that either. But again, because of how vague of a conversation I feel that you're having. I think some people are going to misinterpret what you said. Shit I could be misinterpreting what you say that's why I think you need to be more precise about what exactly you're talking about. Also there is a lot of gatekeeping happening here and it plays a big part into why a lot of this could be happening. 9. We should work on hearing others that doesn't have the same view as us. You're not wrong but a big problem with it is that everyone thinks they are right and doesn't want to give any ground to anything that doesn't align with their viewpoint. Which fucking sucks. I hate it and it makes it so a lot of people don't feel like they can be open and honest about how they feel and hearing out others. 9. Nobody has mentioned this before. You're video is the first that I have seen talk about it this way but there has been other book tubers that have touched on other aspects of this conversation not so much as when it comes to SV in Fantasy but other ways. Again I really want to have an open and judge free conversation about this and I like that you're video came across my feed and I'll subscribe to you to see the next couple videos you make. I just hope that you could dive deeper into this and talk more freely about it. I understand that this is also a difficult discussion for you as a survivor of SA and that plays a big role in how you feel. Thank you for sharing your thoughts. Also I have to add English is not my first language. It's not even my second so sorry for grammar mistakes and misspellings. I hope this makes sense.
Thank you so much for watching and for sharing so many great points! I know it would've been helpful to go into detail and delve deeper into this topic, and I may do that in conversations with other authors/readers in the future. I'm also sticking to what I'm comfortable with at the moment, and maybe I'll do more in depth ones in the future!
Good takes. It's not the "what". It's the "how". Staunch defenders of "wish fulfillment" portrayals of SV like to conflate criticism to suppression of SV depiction to muddy the waters. It's an attempt to deflate media literacy.
Thank you so much for watching. I really wanted to highlight the difference between what and how in this case, because I'm definitely not of the opinion that it should NEVER be included. I think when it is included, it should be handled intentionally and responsibly.
It can add to a story when it's handled well, but I can only think of one author I'd say did that, and I won't mention the name cause reasons. I'm typically averse to "misery porn" though so I don't encounter it much.
Who would want to read about SV unless you're sick. Tv shows come with disclaimers. Why shouldn't books? Or at list of books that contain SV, so you know what to avoid. Because the authors you describe don't sound worth reading if they truly write that way.
There’s some hesitation with content warnings for spoiler reasons, but I think there are lots of different ways to handle them. And all the more important for us readers to share in our reviews!
As a fantasy writer who does not shy from those very hard topics, an AFAB person and a survivor who's been through different sexual violence, including incest. I do have an issue with how those issues are usually portrayed. Oftentimes AFAB writers fantasize about them as much as AMAB writers, but it's always done differently, in a way that is actually worse and more damaging because the abusers are painted as the "good guys" and romantic partners but with a dark side to them. No, sorry but no. Edward Cullen (Twilight series) and Christian Grey (Fifty Shades of Grey) are RAPISTS. So are characters like Wonder Woman in Wonder Woman 1984 by the way. It feels like most people don't know what rape and consent are. And the horror victims go through is completely overlooked, it's often played in "stranger rapes" for shock value. Other rapes are portrayed as "not real rape" but "romance", which is a HUGE issue, it's perpetuating rape culture. But I'm tired of readers and AFAB fantasy writers pretending it's just an male writer issue. It's not! And yes, please, normalize trigger warnings for books!!! Edward Cullen (Twilight series) and Christian Grey (Fifty Shades of Grey) are RAPISTS. So are characters like Wonder Woman in Wonder Woman 1984 by the way. It feels like most people don't know what rape and consent are. And the horror victims go through is completely overlooked,
I agree that toxic romance that includes or borders on sexual violence is incredibly problematic in some genres, especially what I've seen of romantasy or even YA romance lately.
I don't really read that much fantasy and what little I have hasn't had SA but if there is as much of it as your video and the comment section suggested that is a bit weird. What happened to just putting good old fashion down a dirty sex in a book? I mean I have read a few sci-fi and just out and out trashy pulp novels were the Heroine who fights the baddies and bed handsome men and in some cases women. Now at least in fantasy which should be all about adventure is filled with SA I guess.
"It's realistic"...THAT is the wish fulfillment, not the objectification or glorifying language. "Realistic" in this context equals an excuse or at least a reason that sexual violence is socially acceptable. In fiction it's OK (OK meaning not criminal) precisely because it ISN'T real, but the translation to "real" isn't. Using the term "realistic/unrealistic" in a fantasy setting as a criticism or validation is fucking stupid anyway. Considering the gatekeeping from agents and publishers who created the market for this kind of writing, your emphasis on prevalence in the writing might be slightly misplaced? I don't know. I mean, if gun manufacturers didn't make weapons that shot 60 rounds in a minute, people wouldn't be able to buy them (not that I'm anti-gun, that's just an example). If there wasn't a market for sexual violence in fantasy, a market invented by the industry, we wouldn't be having this conversation. Thanks for your views on this. It's definitely something we don't talk about enough.
Thanks for watching! I don't think there's one entity we can blame fully for this prevalence, tbh. There's a lot of factors and involved parties to these scenes being published in novels, both in the traditional and indie spheres. And you're right, "unrealistic" is an ironic choice when talking about the fantasy genre.
You've made a lot of really good points in this video, about a topic that deserves discussion. But one comment really floored me: when you mentioned that people would dismiss sexual violence as "you're not the target audience," which implies that there IS a target audience is indeed troubling. Thanks for the video - it deserves more views.
Totally agree, Josh. It's disturbing.
I'm a tall, muscular, good-looking man. I have fortunately not had to deal with sexual violence but, through the years, I've been unashamedly stared at, objectified, groped, had to endure uncalled for advances, and had to suffer a few people in positions of power over me at work drooling over me. Mostly men, but also women.
So, in line with your comment about people arguing "but this is realistic!", I have often wondered... Fantasy novels are usually jam-packed with hunks of one sort of another, yet none of the dozens I've read about has gone through an even remotely similar situation. The vast majority of them never have to deal with it at all. Nobody dares to grope them or even establish physical contact - where's the realism there. And when one suffers uncalled for advances, they just brush it off saying: "oh, another pervert, whatever...". Or their friends make jokes about it in the line of: "that's what you deserve for looking like that" - and the hunk "realistically" smiles on cue.
Well, it is not something enjoyable. Not if it's a man, not if it's a woman - the gender is irrelevant. Not when a security guard is groping your ass with the excuse of looking for who knows what. Your ego doesn't get a gratifying boost as authors seem to believe. Just because you are a man doesn't mean it cannot affect you. You don't just brush it off or stay there flummoxed thinking: "Is this actually happening?". You know what is happening, you know why, and it disgusts you. It is extremely awkward and it puts you in very uncomfortable situations - specially when you do not want to or cannot use your actual physical capacities to "repel the repellent".
Just thinking how my blood boils when something as "light" as this happens to me, like you I also fret whenever I see an author is going for the "shocking, realistic" sexual violence chapter because I can only imagine how much, much worse that would actually feel. How can they write so freely about it is something I'll never understand.
"unashamedly stared at, objectified, groped, had to endure uncalled for advances, and had to suffer a few people in positions of power over me at work drooling over me"
Sorry to break it to you brother but you DID have to deal with sexual violence.
It's coming from someone who survived through multiple rapes and incest. Don't downplay what you've been through! What you describe is part of rape culture, just because you are a man doesn't mean you can't be a victim of it.
I hope you're okay. 🥺
Louder for the people in the back!
I’m an ugly woman. The most attention I get is snickering laughter behind my back or complete ignoring. Versus my good looking counterparts. Any gender. The things said about them make my skin crawl to the point that I’m grateful I’m not attractive.
And fantasy descriptions of men give me the same ick. Paragraphs(sometimes pages) dedicated to telling how perfect their bodies are. It’s creepy and voyeuristic. If such descriptions were made about women, there would be an uproar. And for good reason. If something can be gender-flipped and be disturbing then it was disturbing all along.
And yes your personal experiences count as sexual violence. The comments are harassment and unwanted touch in such circumstances is assault. Please know that using such labels for yourself does NOT take away from the experiences of women victims. But it adds to the many, many drowned out voices of men experiencing the same thing.
Women are often not believed when they report sexual harassment and men are believed even less. That doesn’t make any of their experiences less real.
@@littlestarshepherd Mate, I hope *you* are ok - you're the one who's been through really rough times.
I'm ok. I've learned to handle or cope with these events, but because they happen (fortunately) months apart they always seem to catch me with my guard down - which makes me feel like a fool and only infuriates me more. Oh well... Work in progress!
@@dragletsofmakara1120 You raise a very interesting point. I once was in a bookshop browsing a book and suddenly jumped when someone pinched my butt. I wheeled around, half praying it was someone I knew, half wondering if I had the energy to make a scene if needed. I found myself looking down on an elderly lady, half my size, with a walker. The situation was so preposterous that I just laughed and asked her: "Really?". She just mischievously smiled at me and went on.
Honestly, at that moment what I thought was: "Whatever grannie. Enjoy it". But on my way back home I thought that, were our genders flipped and an old man had pinched a young woman's butt, everybody would agree that it was something gross and inappropriate. But because I'm a strong man and she's a defenseless old lady then it's ok and even funny? Maybe it is, I really don't know. Most of all, I would want not to have to think about it in the first place!
Also, thanks for saying that using such labels for myself does not take away from the experiences of women victims. I've often wondered if I'm just a whiner and what I have to go through sometimes is what half the population simply calls: "the everyday of a woman".
@@isaac_romanov oh geez! I cringed reading your story. That is 100% assault. But you’re right. That would socially be seen as comical. Old lady vs big handsome man. Kinda similar how a slap used to be portrayed in older tv. Man hitting woman - tense drama. Woman hitting man - comedy. Thankfully that has changed in recent years. And I can only hope that such harassment is taken more seriously for all genders. But my faith in humanity is in the dumps which is why I read fantasy. To get away from reality. And it’s not working.
Fantastic video Tori, I'm late to watching but you hit several key points here. The biggest ones for me are the shock value and romanticizing of it. I've a similar issue with spicy scenes in romance books. They often don't add to the the characters relationships/developments but rather rely on shock, or thrill and often include sexual violence with justifications. There are several books I've not attempted to read due to reviews including mention of sexual violence. It's very rarely done with purpose to the overarching story, character development, or empathy.
No single event in one's life will define a person's story, but rather a vast collection of experiences and the individual's own choices in life as they grow. Some experiences can live with us longer, leave scars and make it harder to move forward. Using those horrible experiences as a form of entertainment with no value to a story feels cheap, repetitive, and oftentimes forgettable amid the grandeur of the tale.
Again, fantastic video on the topic Tori and thank you sharing all this!
Thank you so much, Kay. I appreciate your support. I completely agree with all of your points, thank you so much for sharing them!
THANK YOU. The wish-fulfillment is something I see in (especially grimdark) fantasy and horror and it makes me immediately wary of the author and anyone who really champions that book. You mention that SV is experienced by all genders, and it makes me think of how few times I've seen it represented as against men in comparison to against women. It's one of the reasons the excuses of "it's just realistic" or "it's a grimdark world, bad things happen" always rang false to me. If it was truly either of those things, why is the balance so skewed?
Thank you so much for talking about this despite the pushback and retaliation (which I've experienced as well.) I hope it helps open a more thoughtful discussion in the community, and one without the knee-jerk reactions we've all experienced. Also 100% with you on focusing stories more on the characters healing and coping with situations than presenting the situations for shock (or worse) value.
Thank you so much for your comment, Cal! There are so many facets to this topic, I could go on forever. The comments have been encouraging, and I'm glad so many people are continuing to talk about it.
It really hit me when you said you have to get emotionally guarded because you can just feel that the character is going to get SAed. Great video. Glad you made it, because if I tried it would be a much worse video
Thank you for watching, Jake. I spent a lot of time trying to figure out why I was always emotionally distanced from most female characters in the books I read, and I think that is a big part of it.
I loved this especially how you articulated it. This is a conversation that needs to happen. I see so many books where people don’t mentioned the issue in how women are portrayed or the sexual violence and it needs to be said
Fantastic video, Tori, glad you made it.
The "its realistic" defense is honestly so crazy and is only trotted out for this specific thing. You know what else is realistic? All of your internal struggles being solved at the same time you defeat a big bad villain. But its the end of the book so I guess we got it figured out! Another thing that's realistic is shitting your pants in the middle of a battle but I have never seen that happen in a book (thankfully). Where are all the toxic commenters at who bemoan the lack of realism with pants shitting 😱😱
There are definitely a lot of fallacies in the realism comeback XD Thanks so much for watching, Kyle!
Thank you thank you thank you. Finally someone calling this out. The obsession that male fantasy writers have with women experiencing SA is straight up pathological. It’s like they’re compelled to put it in their stories at every turn. And to make matters worse, any time a female character goes through something traumatic, it /has/ to be SA, and on the flip side, male characters almost never experience SA for some reason. It’s literally only the women. Setting the insane prevalence aside (again, pathological obsession!!), the way it’s portrayed is horribly insensitive 99% of the time and either dwells on gratuitous detail for literally no reason, and/or focuses primarily on the feelings of the men close to the woman who experienced SA rather than on her own trauma. It’s incredibly misogynistic.
People will of course defend these portrayals as “just being realistic” or “making a point about how bad life is,” but let’s just be honest, that’s bullshit. One in three women will experience SA in their life time, and half of fantasy readers are women. By writing SA in the gratuitous way they do, authors are effectively barring a good chunk of their potential audience from even being able to stomach the book. The problem is that books with a ton of SA against women aren’t written /for/ those women. They’re written specifically for men who haven’t experienced SA, without regard for any other audience, in some strange attempt to demonstrate how bad SA is to people who haven’t been through it. Meanwhile, people who have actually been through SA are left unable to engage in the work because it’s often too retraumatizing. It’s a decentering of the very people whose experiences they’re appropriating for entertainment value or to make some shitty point that nobody needed to be made. It’s gatekeeping, really.
I agree, it's incredibly prevalent. However I would say that this topic is not limited to male fantasy authors. I've seen it everywhere in fantasy, regardless of the author's gender, and often portrayed similarly. I intentionally kept my focus gender-neutral in the video because I think it's a widespread problem.
You're absolutely right, a lot of SA scenes are not written with survivor experiences in mind, and I am hoping that we can have more conversations about how to handle scenes like this responsibly!
I should probably do a follow up video to talk about fantasy novels that DO handle these topics intentionally and responsibly, because there are some really fantastic authors who have, and it's equally important to spotlight them.
Thank you, for this excellent video, Tori! I very much agree that we need to discuss this more and that as a community we need to gain more awareness how we talk about this topic. I made two videos on violence so far.One specifically on Erikson and Malazan and the other a discussion with Philip Chase and Varsha about violence and fantasy in general. Both touch on sexual violence as well but each time I had the feeling that maybe a separate discussion might be needed. So I'm very glad you made this video!
Philip and Varsha’s conversation was excellent, thank you for bringing that up. And thank you for watching!
First of all, a BIG thank you for this video, you rocked this one 🤍
As someone who has (luckily) never experienced sexual violence myself, I always felt nervous about making statements about how events like these are depicted in my stories. And much as I hate to admit it, it took me a while to even realise how messed up it is that we have all been conditioned to think this is a normal/realistic part of a female character's journey. It's people like you speaking up loud and clear about these issues that have opened my eyes and helped me become more critical over the years, which I am so grateful for. So thanks again, you said it all beautifully. You are a true inspiration in so many ways, keep being you 🥰
Thank you so much, Esmay. It's so easy to become desensitized to stuff like this. I appreciate you!
Great video and thank you for talking about this. I started steering clear of grimdark when I read one too many books that used SA as "set dressing" to show that it was a rough part of town or some other kind of crap. And I have definitely gotten flack for DNFing a book because of it (luckily not from BookTube). I appreciate you spreading awareness that this is definitely a problem beyond being a simple cliché.
Thank you so much for sharing. No one should ever get flack for dnfing a book based on their threshold with the content. 💜💜💜
Thank you for this much needed video, Tori ❤ We share the same issues on this topic, and you put my own feelings into words perfectly. I love this genre, but the “you’re not the target audience” comments when it’s about my dislike of the portrayal of sexual violence in some books drive me crazy!
Thanks so much for watching! It's so frustrating. Our perspectives are valuable in the fantasy genre.
We’ve talked and probably will talk about this again, so all I’ll say for now is, well done. 👌🏻 An important video.
Thank you, Matt.
Finally you made this video!
I always enjoy books that are able to write female characters that grow and change and have traumatic experiences without the need to resort to SA. LPQ is a fantastic inspiration and a shining example of this.
I personally have some experience with reading books that don’t handle it super well, where the woman’s story is consumed by the horrific act, but that’s mostly because I stay away from books that I hear do it gratuitously, for the most part. At the very least they sink on my TBR.
There are so many more ways to show the world is dark or grisly without resorting to this. And I’m working at how to write some of those now (ish).
I totally agree, Pete. And even if SA is included (because it is a reflection of something that people experience in reality), how do we portray it responsibly and give the character in question an arc and personality beyond the trauma they've experienced?
Thank you so much for watching!
@@ToriTalks2 i feel like part of portraying it responsibly is giving the character time to grow beyond it, overcome it in their own way. So doing it at the end of a story is detrimental to this, typically.
@@PonderingsOfPete agreed!!!
I think that the reactions to people pointing out stuff like this, is incredibly interesting. This is not entirely on topic, but still related, so I wanted to mention it. Because i read rather widely and therefore also watch a variety of different subsections of BookTube, i get to compare the (adult high) fantasy side of BookTube to other niches. One thing that i have noticed, is that content warning are pretty much non existent on adult fantasy BookTube. In non-fantasy BookTube, it's really not uncommon that people give a list of content warnings in every review (either in the video itself or in the description), or at the very least, if a book deals with some darker topics, they say to look them up. I rarely see this in the adut epic fantasy spheres, even though (or maybe because???🤔) heavy topics such as sexual violence are incredibly prevalent. I've even seen multiple people actively speaking against the idea of content warnings, which is just incredibly interesting to me.
I think some of it is how people value the shock of those things that are triggering to others. or rather, people's opinions on spoilers. compared to other niches of booktube, I think the adult fantasy community tends to be more spoiler averse, and there are people who would argue trigger warnings are major spoilers. there's probably a better way to do it, but I personally haven't found a balance I like.
The other part of it is that it doesn't register in their minds all of the time. Strange, but its true. it's definitely happened to me, it's happened to some people I was just talking to about this subject. I've read books where there's SA and I recoil in disgust, skip over the descriptor bits, move on, and then forget about it because I don't want to dwell on it. there are some books where I've had a more visceral, triggering reaction to these scenes, but that's not every time. But I try to make up for it by doing more listening to the thoughts and experiences of my friends and paying attention when I can in books. this has all been a gradual evolution over time, an interesting journey.
I agree that content warnings can be helpful, but I also agree with the general sentiment that a laundry list of content warnings can get overdone and spoilery. I think including something generic in content warnings is okay, but I've also seen authors take it way too far and include every little thing that could possibly be questionable. It's a tough line to walk, for sure.
Either way, I definitely think including relevant warnings in reviews when we talk about the books we read can be super helpful to other readers as well.
@@ToriTalks2 I wasn't trying to day one is necessarily better than the other, just stating something that i've noticed. I agree that some of the lists are waaaay too long. It's a tough balance, but one that we need to think about.
@@thefairylibrarian3282 totally agree! I definitely think there are ways to include them for people who would like to.
Very important and insightful video Tori, the idea I often go back to when I see the argument for sexual violence or homophobia in books is like you say "its realistic" - but if you're happy with elves and dragons and magic you can't believe a queernormative world exists?!
So well said, and such great and important points that I can really relate to and 100% agree with. I appreciate your talking about this openly SO MUCH, Tori! ♥
Thank you so much, Monique!
As a guy I avoid reading books with strong sexual violence. I find those books easy to avoid. I thought I read a lot of fantasy, so I do not understand this prevalence you're speaking of. I don't have as much time to read, so when I pick up a book or series I have thoroughly looked up reviews on it so I have an understanding of the themes.
Thank you for this video. Male writers using SA/SV in the name of 'realism' and 'grimdark' is straight out offensive. It's sad to see many male booktubers defend graphic sexual violence against women saying that "the author's intention is to sensitise male readers to the horrors of sexual violence." I've seen this defence used every time R. Scott Bakker's books come up!
It's also infuriating when male authors use SV almost as a rite of passage into adulthood for female characters: "I never would've become this tough badass woman if i hadn't been sexually assaulted." I've never heard of a single woman IRL being grateful for SA in any form, much less claim that it was the making of them.
I have not read Baker’s books, but I have heard from reviews how they are set in a fictional but historically inspired Earth (centuries or maybe a millennium ago). Since sexual violence might have had a very different outlook on it back then compared to now in terms of morality, how would you prefer Baker to handle that aspect? To not have it included, to have it included but downplaying the rate at which it may have occurred, or something else? I ask this as a Male writer who is watching this video to understand how to approach this topic in a better way in any future stories I may write. I do not want to add to bad representations of this topic.
I think that generally pointing to "male authors" isn't necessarily helpful in this case. I know of quite a few male authors who handle this topic exceptionally well and with intentionality. And there have been some books I've dnfed by female authors for the same reasons. I tried to keep the video gender neutral in that respect.
The core issue that you mentioned I absolutely agree with: using SV as a "rite of passage". That was a great way of putting it, and I think there are a lot of books that unfortunately lean into that.
Very well said Tori! I completely agree, the amount of this kind of content we see is just way too much. It’s a very important topic and should be explored, but it feels almost par for the course at times and often handled not completely in a nuanced way. My wife is always saying in out bookclub ‘why in these worlds where dragons, magic, spaceships, wormholes etc exist, must we always have women being abused, objectified and experiencing misogyny?! Is it so hard to think that women exist and at the same level as men?!’ And I couldn’t agree more!
I feel like it has almost become an emotional cheap shot to spark some kind of reaction in the reader. Either that , or authors think that experiencing “that” facilitates character growth and further strength. There are so many other ways to have an emotional moment with characters & so many ways to show character growth. ESPECIALLY in fantasy. You created this whole fictional world in your head. You have endless options. And this is what you go for? Can it be done “well” (& I use this term loosely) of course. But at this point, it’s become a given that female characters will most likely experience something like this.
Late to this but i just wanted to thank you for putting out this video and handling this topic so thoughtfully.
Thank you so much, Tim! 💜
Thank you for making this video. This is not any easy topic to put your opinion on the internet about, especially as a survivor. You stated your reasoning in a professional manner.
Sexual violence is one of the main reasons I have DNF’d one of the most popular modern fantasy series twice. It’s not the only reason, but it played a significant role. Sexual violence bothers me, especially when it is not needed to tell the story in my opinion.
It sounds that there is no sex positive novels in fantasy.
That's not true. There are many fantasy books that showcase powerful, flawed, yet healthy relationships at all stages!
Thank you so much for watching, Chris. I've dnfed more than a few books for how they handled this topic as well.
Thank you for sharing this video Tori. I do wonder if so much of poorly portrayed SA comes from a hamfisted response to the calls against "fridging." Regardless, a decision to include a scene like this ought to be contemplated with intentionality and understanding, rather than ever being "because it's easy." Thank you. You so very eloquently said it all.
I think that's a really interesting point. Thank you so much, Andrew! I appreciate all your support.
Thank you for sharing this Tori. I recently read a very popular fantasy book and was taken back with the amount of SV and how it was portrayed. This is a needed discussion and I think you’ve done a great job with it.
Thank you so much, Matt. I appreciate you watching!
Love this video, and love the responses I'm seeing from people in the comments.
It's literally a trope at this point that in order to be a "strong female character" a woman must first be brought to her lowest possible state to build herself back up again... and for most authors that boils down to "she gets r*****." I totally hear you with the timer in your head. It's as if its a requirement of the Female Hero's Journey.
What also surprises me is how it seems to be just as prevalently used by female authors. I don't know if that's supposed to make it more acceptable, or if its somehow "better" or more thoughtfully written, but at the end of the day its all the same. I hate that that's what "female trauma" is always reduced to.
I don't want my daughter to learn that for girls "trauma" means one thing and one thing only. "Your greatest strength can only be attained after a man has forced himself on you!" Brilliant life lesson. Countless authors seem to REEEALLY wanna make sure we've learned it!
Great points, thank you so much for watching and commenting!
I agree that while SV is a horrific experience and should be given the gravity that it deserves, it does far too often become the default for "character growth."
And I also have noticed it in fantasy written by men and women, it's definitely not a single faceted issue.
What a great video! Thank you for being open and vulnerable and discussing this topic. I've never experienced SV in real life, but ever since i was a young teen, i noticed the prevalence of it in fantasy.
I often find it's used to make a world or villain seem evil and dark and scary, which totally sidelines the character's emotions and experience.
As a woman reading this in fantasy, it's exhausting. Yep, we get it, women are the target of SV in the real world a lot. Why do we need to be beaten over the head with it in fiction as well? Especially when it's just added for "flavor" or just tossed in there for shock value.
I love your comment about sidelining the character's emotions and experience to spotlight "how evil" a character or world can be. Absolutely spot on.
I’m very much with you in that it feels far overused as a shock value plot device. I cringe when it comes up and don’t blame anyone for not reading further unless it’s handled by a skilled writer that knows how to handle such an issue.
This was something present in Sara Douglass’ novels, but she was one to not shy away from depictions of sex or violence. And it was obvious it wasn’t done for glorifying the act, but with an understanding that it is an act of evil.
I look forward to reading Sara Douglass in the future! And I agree, I bounce off of shock value scenes very quickly.
I'd like everyone in the fantasy community to watch this. Maybe more than once to really let it sink it. Thank you for sharing your thoughts so eloquently.
Thank you so much for watching and sharing your thoughts! 🙏🏻💜
Honestly don't have anything to add, because you covered it. Appreciate this.
I appreciate you!
Hey Tori thanks for the mature well thought out video. I especially appreciate the point that it’s not the topic it’s how it’s being covered by the author.
I find the topic of the “male gaze” to be confusing and a bit frustrating because rarely do I see it applied consistently or in context, HOWEVER when it comes to SA in books there’s no excuse for romanticizing it or showing it in any way that makes it less of a crime.
Love this video! Proud of you Tori
Thanks so much, Wizard 💜
Well done video - such a difficult topic. Handled with grace 👍👍👍
I sometimes wonder if them modern media penchant for making 'violence" cool and synonymous with action bleeds into portrayal of SA as well. The amount of people who get "icky" about on-page sex but call SA "realistic" makes me think this is a trained response from media. The video reminded me of some of the studies done for thrillers and procedurals especially where violence against women is highly sensationalized.
I definitely agree, I think there are a lot of factors at play. Thank you so much for watching and commenting, Sal 💜
Hi Tori. Thanks for tackling this tough topic so thoughtfully. Definitely a lot to think about here and in the comments.
Thank you so much, Palmer!
I'm glad you made this video. I hope it inspires some more authors to approach the subject with more sincerity. Definitely not something that should be taken lightly.
Thank you so much for watching!
Thanks for sharing such articulate, considerate thoughts. I agree with it all. I don’t have much to add, as it’s emotional, but so glad you made this video
Thank you for watching!
I hate SA as solely charcter growth, it normalizes trauma as "character building". Nope people can build character other ways. And it's rarely depicted well with nuance and grossly it's often framed through patriarchy ( my wife, my sister, my love interest yet often a male lead reaction is centralized and worse love is often the solution)
👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
Thank you! A great video, with a lot of valuable and interesting perspectives. And also put very concisely and clear. It really invites to exploring the topic and how different authors as well as readers handle and experience the topic.
I'm actually really sorry to hear that it is so prevalent that you cannot read a book without continuously having to steel yourself for what is coming. And I can totally agree that it is unnecessary to be this prevalent as well. Although I feel I'm quite aware when it happens in books, I'm always curious whether how that compares to the experience of others. So during the video I felt I really wanted some examples of books that fall into different categories to understand what you find well-handled, lazy or gratuitous, but I guess that is always subjective and therefore besides the point of the video.
Personally, on a less physical and more emotional level, I also can get a really awful feeling from scenes or books that validate toxic, problematic and inappropriate relationship dynamics. And although their effects in real life may be less obvious and impactful than SA/SV, I feel they are also much wider and more easily embraced or in some subgenres of Romantasy, even revered.
Anyway, I think it is so important to discuss and be aware how we handle different types of violence and I think this video is a very important contribution to the discussion of SA/SV in fiction.
Great video, Tori.
I agree, i think its strange that sensitivity of any kind is now seen as an inherent weakness to a lot of people, I swear we're going backwards now. How do we grow as people if we can't be vulnerable with the people we trust, and more importantly, ourselves?
Agreed on the importance of the HOW/WHY. There's an infamous and rightfully criticised scene in the Greatcoats series, that objectively speaking is S.A (female perpetrator, male victim whose slipping in and out of consciousness that explicitly says NO) but its never treated like a sexual assault nor explored that deeply from what I remember, and nothing like that (at least in a sexual sense) happens again, its so weird I'm still baffled by that decision to this day. It didn't even need to happen. The story would not have changed that much (if at all).
Totally agree, Rogue. Being aware, appropriately sensitive, and empathetic is a sign of a mature, healthy person. Vulnerability is not a weakness at all.
Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts and watching!
Great video, Tori! For both authors and readers I think.
I agree on all points. I personally feel violence of any type should be handled with care in stories, but sexual violence in particular hits so close to home for so many that it is an authorial responsibility to take it seriously and not make it gratuitous.
Thanks for speaking on this.
Thank you for watching, Zammar! Totally agree. Heavy topics are important to include and express in any genre, but equally as important is handling them responsibly.
Finally someone is talking about this, thank you ❤
Thank you Tori!
While I do occasionally include sexual violence in some of my works as a way of catharsis, I've kept it almost completely out of my fantasy because the prevalence in the genre is so frustrating. There's no need for it 90% (or more tbh) of the time it's included especially when it's described in detail to a point it feels gratuitous and cheap.
I think it's completely valid to include it when it's done that way or with very specific intentions that aren't just "character drama". And I know that you approach it with a lot of responsibility! We need more authors like you!
I totally agree with you!
As an unpublished writer, I have never and will never write an SA scene. I'm someone who admittedly gets bothered by very little. I've read a few harsh scenes from certain series, I've seen some rough horror movies where that kind of content is shoe-horned in. I'll never put it in my stories, and I'll go out of my way to just NOT have it in my stories, even if by ten other authors it would be, even if "in historical context there would be."
I have one project that's focused on Orcs. I think it's fair to say there'd be a lot of people who would assume "oh yeah, orcs, they'd totally be the type to...." but my reaction is like, hold up, no. In *my* world, Orcs have very different values than humans. Just the mere attitude of sexuality for them vs. humans is so vastly different that the very NOTION of SA is a foreign concept to an Orc, it just doesn't cross their minds - in their society you fight your enemy, you end your enemy, the end. Quick, efficient.
I *get* why some authors include it, but it's quite easy to not have it. And like most sane people, my response to "maybe its not your target audience" is... "maybe the target audience needs social services called on them."
Thank you for making this video 😊. IMO this has been rarely done well and wish it wasn’t in the books I read. I understand it’s a part of society, and agree with you that alot of the time it is either glorified, or made to make the book “ Darker “. Lord of the Rings is probably one of the top selling, if not the most top selling books of all time… and none of that was in there
Thanks so much for watching, and for your thoughts! LOTR set a high standard for people who want to completely avoid SA in fantasy. :)
@@ToriTalks2 Well, almost completely, there are some dark implications about how the new breed of Uruk-hi came to be (and it's not being grown from pods in the earth) - but point taken, the reader is well removed from the experience. Tolkien did well for not putting the reader through awful experiences of war, while still dealing with many of the emotional consequences of it.
Great video, Tori. The implications of "you're not the target audience" really are jaw-dropping.
On that same note - the "bUt ITs reALIstIc!!1!" argument is so transparently hypocritical. If it's all for realism's sake, then how come we hardly ever have to read about grown men being raped and sexually humiliated, which regularly happens in war and war-like scenarios as well? If an author is that committed to realism that he feels compelled to write about SA against a woman in every other chapter, why isn't he writing about the men as well? Could it possibly be because that wouldn't be as titillating to him and/or to the basement-dwellers that make up a big part of his readership? One can't help but wonder...
There's a lot of factors to this conversation, for sure. And I agree, the "target audience" argument always makes me really angry.
Thanks!
Thank you so much!
Ah yes! I'm so glad someone's finally talking about it...well ok, Bookborn has talked about this before too. But I'm glad to see you're talking about it. This is something I've wanted to address for a while myself, but A. I don't have the right words for it yet and B. I'd feel really awkward talking about it by myself since I am a straight white dude, and sure that doesn't mean I can't have opinions on this subject, but I think it would be valuable if I had a discussion with a woman about the subject.
I digress though, this was a great discussion and video. Keep up the good work.
Bookborn has done some great content in this area, yes! It's hard to find the right words for it, that's why it took me so long to actually make the video. Thank you for watching, Britton!
Thank you for making this. I've been thinking about this topic a lot, as another survivor, especially since reading Deadhouse Gates last year. Most other fantasy that contains sexual violence, I have found severely wanting since.
My first shot across across the bow is that using "it's realistic!" as an excuse in the context of a fantasy novel is just idiotic. If someone is fine with a magic system or a world-building structure that violates our laws of physics or whatever, and then use realism as an excuse for a gratuitous assault, after which the victim continues to have little agency or outlet for their suffering, then I question...a lot of things about that person, at the end of the day.
I'm sorry you have to carry that, Groofay. And I totally get what you mean about Deadhouse Gates setting a standard. If you haven't read Daughter of the Forest, I also recommend that one.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts!!!
@@ToriTalks2 Thanks for reminding me of Daughter of the Forest! I've been meaning to read it ever since you did months ago, and I'm looking to some time this fall.
Fantastic and very well articulated video Tori.
Thank you 🙏
I liked the point you made around the 7:00 point. It’s almost like the they a defined by what they were and not by who they are. And I may or may not have “stolen” from The Chosen when Phillip was talking to Matthew as they were going to dry the wood.
Exactly! Thank you so much for watching. :) (I love the portrayal of Matthew, btw)
Tori, thank you publishing this. I am interested in the subject because I definitely include this in my writing. I'm an equal opportunity offender, but it's there and it's intentional. Your perspective will make me better at what I'm trying to do. I don't want to revel in it. I do want to discuss the very ugly ends of the people I write about. I'll think on this for a bit. Again, thank you.
I think that's a good way to approach it. Layered and intentional approaches to every heavy topic we deal with in our books is the way to go. Thanks for watching!
You know, it would be incredibly helpful if you would’ve used the examples of what you’re describing. you’ve used the word prevalent so many times in this video and the whole time I’m sitting here thinking, we must be reading very different fantasy. I genuinely cannot think of a single example of what you’re describing, especially glorification of this heinous act. I know you probably don’t want to call out particular titles, but I am genuine at a loss… I read quite a bit of fantasy and I just can’t remember coming across what you’re describing… I don’t read the young adult at all, is that it?
If it makes a difference, I am a woman and usually pretty sensitive to these issues
I made a conscious choice when making this video to avoid calling out specific authors or titles. I realize that makes things more vague, but that was an intentional choice because my goal with the video wasn't to point fingers, but to hopefully spark more conversation about this topic and how it can be handled within a genre that I love.
I'm genuinely really glad that you've found so many great titles that don't lean on sexual violence!
Young Adult does include a lot of very dubious SA and SA adjacent content, but it is also quite common in adult fantasy as well. There are, of course, authors who handle it really well, and I've really been grateful to find them. Juliet Marillier's Daughter of the Forest, and Steven Erikson's Deadhouse Gates are two examples.
@@ToriTalks2 thank you Tori for the answer. I do understand you not wanting to name names, I also don’t want you to feel that I doubt you’re very strong emotion on the subject. I’m simply trying to understand… Perhaps the age difference makes our perceptions so varied…. It certainly is an important subject, I’ll think on it much more.
The Warded Man. Female in a village, everyone loves her, she's a healer. She wanders out and is assaulted. A comic book writer once said he went to a lot of trouble of making a likable woman so when she was killed you would feel it more. So, it's a tool. Well, so what? I did not sit back after that moment in The Warded Man and think, "Damn those bad guys!" I stopped and wondered why the author thought that was needed.
The author of Kick-Ass said of the villains and such actions, 'You're supposed to hate these guys." Well no we are not. I LOVE Darth Vader. But I would not if he had assaulted Leia in the cell. We love our villains. It's up to us to hate them or not.
There was one rapey villain in a book where he was going to do the deed, then stopped and decided to keep her for afterwards. I thought maybe that was a step in the right direction. It did not have to happen and it didn't.
I guess I would ask all authors to just stop and take a minute to ask themselves if they really need to do this in this moment.
On a lighter note, though related, in Mad Max his wife and child are run over by a biker gang so Max freaks out, gets in his bad-ass outfit, in his bad-ass car and gets bad-ass revenge. I guess you are not going to get that reaction from unpaid speeding tickets. "Those bastards! I'll get those fines from them!"
Even though tools are needed to set of the heroes so they will go get those villains, or else they just sit around working out, I think there are plenty to use that are not sexual assault. I do realize it's not real. But that does not mean I want to read it, nor does it excuse the fact that the violence against women in fiction FAR outweighs violence against men.
You're exactly right, Montie. Asking yourself, "what does this add to the character/story? Is it necessary? Why am I including it?" are all incredibly important questions during the writing process with any heavy topic.
Thank you for doing this, i have been in that room where someone says get over it, it's fact of life, just get on with it, stop expecting anything to change etc etc. By and large in the SyFy I have read its treated as just something that happens to a generally female character that propels her into the next story point. But we could equally say this about war injurys etc, they are something that happens. Yes it happens. But how it's handled in the story is important in the real world, I would prefer if authors talked through it more, beginning, middle and recovery so people who don't understand the bad experiences can feel the effects of SV, life altering injury etc. When it's just for effect I DNF and that's for female authors just as much for male.
Thank you so much for your comment! I totally agree. It happens on both sides of the aisle in terms of writing, and I love that you brought up the comparison to war injuries. I think oftentimes authors take more care to show the progression of overcoming and healing from injuries than they do when they include SV.
Thank you for your thoughts!
Thank you for talking about this uncomfortable and unfortunately personal topic. Fantasy is an escape, and while it's up to the author what is in the book, it is up to us to read it and enjoy it. Humans enjoy different things to different degrees, but magic, winning against all odds, slaying evil characters (y'know, fantasy) appeals to most fantasy readers, right? Even death to main characters and cliffhangers. These carry a heavy emotional response initially, but later resolve into anticipation. Will this character be avenged? Was their death in vain? What will the next chapter in this story hold?
SA does NOT resolve into any positive emotion for most fantasy enjoyers, certainly not the aforementioned anticipation. A main character's death will circle around to evoking a positive response; a main character being SA'd is just putting putting poison in the medicine and ruining our aforementioned escape.
If you DO enjoy content with SA, I would recommend taking a look within and see if that's something you need to address. Otherwise, there is a darker corner of the internet and the arts for you, but it does not need to be normalized in the very broad genre that is fantasy.
I think about this topic in the same way as other horrific violence, such as murder, torture, etc. etc. It's not like all other types of violence or torture is in one category of my brain, while sexual violence is a separate category to itself - (in my mind).
If it serves a purpose (I think) it should be there - whether it's on the page or alluded to. Same as other terrible stuff.
Of cause, if you don't like reading that, that is totally fair and understandable. I'm not your supervisor.
And I can understand why this might be a sensitive topic to many people. After all, sexual violence is something far more people fear or have experienced compared to, say, having half your teeth meticulously removed with a tiny chisel, like Glokta from The First Law.
I completely understand the part about it being super off-putting, if it feels gratuitous or is meant to be somehow "sexy". I bounce off of that immediately. (Except maybe with Song of Ice and Fire, if that counts as this kind of thing?).
Although I still think such graphic gratuitous stuff is OK (though I would never read it), if it is very clearly presented as a form adult entertainment (or at least makes it clear that the work will feature this thing), from the get go. Like a book version of BDSM. I would assume that readers of such find it hot, only because they know it is fiction. The same way as practitioners of BDSM are no more likely to be actual sexual criminals, than people who have more vanilla sex - even if "consensual non-consent" is a part of the fantasy for them.
It’s nuanced for sure. Thank you for watching and sharing your thoughts. :)
@@ToriTalks2 Thank you. I appreciate you replying.
I know it's been a while, but I thought about this topic again, and wanted to add something.
When it comes down to it, I think the "problematic" part, is when the book isn't.. aware of what it's doing.
Like treating sexual assault too casually, too permanently defining for the person, as a cheap trick to ruse an emotion, or as some kind is messed up titillation for the reader (in a book that is not explicitly about that kinda thing).
But this is true with all topics. For instance, including toxic relationships can be relevant, engaging and valuable - but genuinely framing toxic relationships as "romantic" or "passionate" (looking at you, Twilight), THAT is the thing I find problematic.
@@smokedmessias1607 I totally agree. Intentionality and awareness/understanding is a big part of it.
Thanks for this video essay. It has given me much to think about, and as a male reader, I know their is sexual violence, but it never sticks out to me.
Thanks so much for watching and adding to the conversation! I think it's important for any reader to be aware of the content choices in their reads and how these heavy topics are handled.
I'm male and asexual, so I'm very much a minority when it comes to the male experience. Reading sex scenes in general is a mixed bag for me (grimdark mostly,) but a shock value scene-especially if it's SA-is enough to make me quit an author entirely. The other thing that irks me is when SA is used as a device to show the heroic qualities of the MC when they step in and save the day. No follow up for the victim, no trauma to deal with; the story moves on.
I'm writing a book with asexual themes, and unfortunately, SA is an issue that's prevalent in our community (mostly through coercion.) There is no way I could bring myself to address the issue directly, so I've used an analogy within the plot that I hope isn't lost on most readers.
I couldn't agree more with your issues on these types of SV scenes. Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts!
Incredibly cogent. Thank you!!
Thanks for watching!
Fantasy genre is essentially a genre that is obsessed with using extreme violence for thrills so it's not surprising it has lots of sexual violence too. It's sort of interesting that fantasy writers generally seem to be unable to not make their books about extreme violence.
Like it makes sense there's lots of sexual violence in genre that is next to incapable of producing novels where a bunch of people isn't killed or if there isn't outright mass extreme violence like war.
I would disagree with a generalized statement that "fantasy is obsessed with using extreme violence for thrills". I do think that gratuitous content exists in the genre, but it also does in other genres. And I think oftentimes fantasy is a powerful genre that allows us to explore difficult topics in our history and world through a secondary lens, which can be beneficial in many ways.
@@ToriTalks2 Can you list 20 fantasy novels that don't feature lethal combat and where generally no one is killed?
I was going to add something but I really don't have anything to add.
Thank you for watching, Joe!
This is a valuable perspective brilliantly articulated as usual. Well done!
Thank you so much! I percolated on it long enough XD
I’ve actually been thinking about this kind of topic recently, how many sci fi or fantasy books are there that don’t have violence or death or assault as part of them? It feels like the entire genre has it in almost every story as a pre-requisite.
It is very prevalent, and unfortunately mirrors reality in many ways. And I think because fantasy often deals with stories about war or other major conflicts, violence and death are a natural byproduct of those kind of stories. And I don't think that's a bad thing, but HOW they are written matters.
And I'm very grateful that we have more diversity in the subgenres of fantasy that is being highlighted. Stories without excessive violence are becoming more common, and I'm glad they exist for all the readers who love the genre but don't want such heavy content.
I did not realize how curly your hair is. As a fellow curly haired book reader, what product do you use for/in it for haircare?
Hey! Yep, natural curly girl here. :D I use Innersense for conditioner (they also have a great clarifying shampoo, I think), and then a cream leave in product called Original Moxie that I just scrunch through the curls while they're still wet after the shower. They have a holding serum as well that you can use for more structure in the curls. :) Another great tip if you aren't using it already is to get a microfiber towel to scrunch dry after you wash your hair. It's less friction against the hair and doesn't add to frizz. Does that help?
Entertainment is so intertwined with fiction, that it's really hard to separate the subject matter of SA enough to present it in a way that elevates or justifies it being in the story. And that always makes me uncomfortable. The aim or goal of the book really frames that I guess. Is it exploitative or a genuine artistic attempt to illicit a certain response. I suppose we all have different thresholds and degrees though.
Yes, exactly. Thank you for watching, Matt!
I suppose I choose literature that pretty much avoid such scenes. I read a lot of fantasy but I rarely encounter scenes of any kind of SV. There's a lot of literature that doesn't use that as a plot point. That said, I stopped reading one paranormal fantasy series where the female MC gets trapped and assaulted by a supernatural creature. That's where I draw my line. I also don't read crime fiction because of the depicted violence.
That's completely valid. I know a lot of readers who choose to steer clear of SV completely in their reading.
One of the cleverest ways i feel like sexual violence was portrayed was in the name of the wind, there's this scene in the book where Kvothe hears a child screaming while being raped, and while rationalizing why hes not helping him he implies that It happened to him once as well, and when the realization hit me i felt my stomach drop, mind you i was rereading it i didnt even catch it the first time
Thank you for sharing! I haven't read Name of the Wind yet. That would definitely be a hard scene to read.
I unfortunately, cannot speak to the topic with a voice that offers any value (to me). When I read the castrations in Lonesome Dove-it made me actively queazy. And I imagine that the feelings are shared when referring to other forms of sexual violence prevalently committed on women in stories.
I think you shouldn’t be judged for having your own personal taste, you’ve read wide and plenty to know what you do and do not like as a reader-and you are actively writing.
As a writer myself, so far, it has been something I’ve stayed away from. If it comes up in my discovery, I always try to see if there are other avenues to go down first, but that is my personal choice. I can only think of one time it has, and I veered away and found something better.
That said, I have had instances where violence in general feels gratuitous, but I tend to have a purpose for those sorts of things (aka a character getting their eyes stabbed out to communicate with another realm). It doesn’t make it right, but it does need to be handled with care.
At the end of the day, you have your reasons for what you do and don’t enjoy. And it’s an interesting topic to bring up for discussion since the written word can reach levels of intimate detail and thought within a characters head that otherwise would be hard to convey. That alone offers new lenses to look at these hard hitting topics compared to other mediums.
Great video-I know I likely didn’t add much to the discussion, but either way you brought up excellent points.
Thank you so much for watching and sharing your thoughts! Lonesome Dove has a lot of really uncomfortable scenes, for sure. I think being super intentional and aware of all the heavier content we include in our writing is important, regardless of the topic.
And I agree too that a lot of violence in general can be used for shock value in fantasy, which isn't great either.
I've been reading fantasy books for a long time, but I'm getting more and more disappointed with the genre because of the amount of gratuitous violence authors have portrayed in their stories. I've been avoiding books classified as "epic fantasy" or "grimdark fantasy" because I already expect scenes like these (including violence against children, which is something that makes me quit reading immediately) to be inserted into the plot only as shock value or plot twists. As an aspiring male author, I've tried to be very careful about the way I approach heavier topics in my stories. Excellent video, excellent discussion, great arguments.
Thanks so much for watching! I definitely think these topics can be addressed in intentional, meaningful ways, and I want to continue to see that. But you're right, a lot of it is thrown in without the necessary gravity.
I really hate the "realism" angle (and I used to believe it when I was a teenager and I wanted to defend alan moore's weird obession with SA), it's not realistic if it's the only way many authors think they can create "interesting" female characters. it's not realistic when they don't write about male victims, or lots of other things we have in "real life" like lgbt folks, or non white people lol. let alone it's not realistic when they write about dragons.......
I am guessing one of your main issues with sexual violence against women in fantasy is not only that it makes you uncomfortable (understandably), but also because it doesn't serve the story in any meaningful way other than to have it? It is the issue I have with HBO, and their incessant needs to add sex and nudity to their shows (and inserted in scenes in adaptations where it was never in there) for the sake of the shock and awe and the belief it drives viewership, and they are "edgy." Thoughts?
Definitely a big factor. When SA is included in storytelling just to be there, or just to "make it more realistic", to me that is gratuitous and damaging. It cheapens the very real experiences of survivors and desensitizes the audience.
I don't think sex is ever put in to a show for shock.
@@stephennootens916 well it is rarely put into any show I have seen to drive a narrative.
@@skippen it is in a show because it is not tv it is HBO aka we can show T&A. Back in the day HBO had a long running doc series called real sex and it was just an excuse to shew naked people.
Showtime for years had softcore shows on late night along with softcore movies. None of it was about shock it wad about sex selling
Ok so I watched this video 4 times because I wanted to make sure I didn't misunderstand you. I think to have the discussion that you want to have you need to bite the bullet and either age restrict the video or be comfortable with getting it demonetized because you are dancing around what your actually trying to talk about.
1. The SV is the characters entire identity. And It's just thrown in there for shock value.
You are absolutely right. It is a lazy storytelling and really doesn't add anything to the story.
3. Wish fulfillment
This one is one that I REALLY think should exclusively only be in smut talking about it starts to get into kinks and how people feel about those are very different. With must smut the reader has a pretty good idea of what they're getting into and won't have that oh my god moment.
Comments from the community
4. It's just realistic
This is one that I laugh at because I hear this and it comes from a certain crowd (let's be real) but then they also complain when other topics like race, sexuality and stuff like that get brought up in stories and they say this is fantasy. I don't want to open a book and think about geopolitics or the struggles of the real world. So which is it? You want this to be realistic or escapism?
5. It can be Subjective and people can have different thresholds on handling some topics.
This is the reason I said you need to have a deeper discussion about this than the one that you are currently having. You are absolutely right. I think this needs to be very nuanced conversation to be had. This specifically off the top of my head could stop so much book banning that is happening in schools and in public library's. But I'm not just saying you but a few other people are talking about it the same way you are and just leaving it there without ACTUALLY getting down to the meat and potatoes.
I believe that we can have mature conversations about books that have come out without completely dog piling on specific authors That write the type of stories that you're talking about or scenes in the stories that they're talking about.
Not giving any type of examples on what is too much for you or what is okay for you doesn't give anybody an in to what YOU think is ok and not ok. It's kind of frustrating to me, because I really want to have a conversation about this without judging anyone on what they think or how they feel. To be fair, this is the first video of yours I've seen. It just popped up on my feed so there is that but I hope you get what I'm saying.
6. Because your a woman you're to sensitive.
As a black male in my 30s I can understand this And sympathize with you because I have been given that line my entire life also when talking about not having black main leads OR on the flip black characters being overtly hypersexualized. With that being said though I do believe that to things can be right at the same time. But this fits in with number 7.
7. You're not the target audience. (It use to be a way to connect a book to readers. But now it's a way to push readers away.) But gatekeeping isn't what you mean.
So I love epic Fantasy that is my jam and I'm very comfortable in that genre. I like a little bit of grim dark and Don't care for low fantasy outside of the Dresden files and Harry Potter. So when I hear that there's this new genre that everybody loves called comfy fantasy I I knew the moment I heard about it. I had no interest in it. I'm fine with other people liking it and I'm cool with it getting a lot of attention right now.
Personally to me that is an example of I am not the target audience for that specific genre. I wouldn't want any author to rewrite their story in that genre to accommodate towards me.
This goes into the thing I was talking about earlier with me being a black male and as a kid or really as a young adult. Me wanting to see more black male leads and stories. As I got older though I realized that I need to look for the stories that have black leads in them instead of making authors shoehorn one into their story to make me happy. That's how we get horrible characters like Finn.
Here's what I feel like is a fine example of SV is. In one of the later books for Malazan series there's a female soldier that gets SAed in a big battle. This doesn't happen from her perspective but from from one of her companions has he runs into a room after it happens. Somewhere on that chapter or the next chapter she finds and kills the man that did it. She talks with companion that found her about how she thought she was to strong to have something like that happen to her and how small she felt in the a situation. For the rest of that book she doesn't want to talk about it but then in the next book if I remember right its heavily implied that she talks about it with some of the other female soldiers. After that they go into another battle and she is a lot more brutal and vicious when fighting and it's clear that she's not enjoying it. Now she's not a main or secondary character in the story but I feel like that is a clear example of the horrible brutality of war.
Now at this point in the series when this happens there has been so many other horrible things that have happened genocide the enslavement of whole cities and many other things. In my PERSONAL opinion someone should have known if this book series was a good fit for them or not so when that comes up I would be very surprised if that was the defining factor of this going to far or not.
A bad example of SV is in the sword of truth is princess or queen that get kidnapped and SAed for a long time. Later she gets rescued and is understandably traumatized. If I remember correctly book or two later after a lot of healing treatment she starts to come back into her own to then be kidnapped again and have the same thing happened to her until her death. To me thats disgusting, gross and unnecessary. It fits with what you talked about in you first point.
I stopped reading that book series before that happened however because I could see where the books where going and was like this is clearly not for me.
With all of that being said I think it's more then fine with me not being the target audience because for most of my life I haven't been And I don't think you're trying to say that either. But again, because of how vague of a conversation I feel that you're having. I think some people are going to misinterpret what you said. Shit I could be misinterpreting what you say that's why I think you need to be more precise about what exactly you're talking about.
Also there is a lot of gatekeeping happening here and it plays a big part into why a lot of this could be happening.
9. We should work on hearing others that doesn't have the same view as us.
You're not wrong but a big problem with it is that everyone thinks they are right and doesn't want to give any ground to anything that doesn't align with their viewpoint. Which fucking sucks. I hate it and it makes it so a lot of people don't feel like they can be open and honest about how they feel and hearing out others.
9. Nobody has mentioned this before.
You're video is the first that I have seen talk about it this way but there has been other book tubers that have touched on other aspects of this conversation not so much as when it comes to SV in Fantasy but other ways. Again I really want to have an open and judge free conversation about this and I like that you're video came across my feed and I'll subscribe to you to see the next couple videos you make. I just hope that you could dive deeper into this and talk more freely about it.
I understand that this is also a difficult discussion for you as a survivor of SA and that plays a big role in how you feel. Thank you for sharing your thoughts.
Also I have to add English is not my first language. It's not even my second so sorry for grammar mistakes and misspellings. I hope this makes sense.
Thank you so much for watching and for sharing so many great points! I know it would've been helpful to go into detail and delve deeper into this topic, and I may do that in conversations with other authors/readers in the future.
I'm also sticking to what I'm comfortable with at the moment, and maybe I'll do more in depth ones in the future!
Good takes. It's not the "what". It's the "how". Staunch defenders of "wish fulfillment" portrayals of SV like to conflate criticism to suppression of SV depiction to muddy the waters. It's an attempt to deflate media literacy.
Thank you so much for watching. I really wanted to highlight the difference between what and how in this case, because I'm definitely not of the opinion that it should NEVER be included. I think when it is included, it should be handled intentionally and responsibly.
It can add to a story when it's handled well, but I can only think of one author I'd say did that, and I won't mention the name cause reasons.
I'm typically averse to "misery porn" though so I don't encounter it much.
That's fair, and I am averse to those kinds of stories as well. Thank you for watching, Xyn!
Great video.
Thank you :)
Who would want to read about SV unless you're sick. Tv shows come with disclaimers. Why shouldn't books? Or at list of books that contain SV, so you know what to avoid. Because the authors you describe don't sound worth reading if they truly write that way.
There’s some hesitation with content warnings for spoiler reasons, but I think there are lots of different ways to handle them. And all the more important for us readers to share in our reviews!
As a fantasy writer who does not shy from those very hard topics, an AFAB person and a survivor who's been through different sexual violence, including incest. I do have an issue with how those issues are usually portrayed.
Oftentimes AFAB writers fantasize about them as much as AMAB writers, but it's always done differently, in a way that is actually worse and more damaging because the abusers are painted as the "good guys" and romantic partners but with a dark side to them. No, sorry but no.
Edward Cullen (Twilight series) and Christian Grey (Fifty Shades of Grey) are RAPISTS. So are characters like Wonder Woman in Wonder Woman 1984 by the way. It feels like most people don't know what rape and consent are. And the horror victims go through is completely overlooked, it's often played in "stranger rapes" for shock value. Other rapes are portrayed as "not real rape" but "romance", which is a HUGE issue, it's perpetuating rape culture.
But I'm tired of readers and AFAB fantasy writers pretending it's just an male writer issue. It's not!
And yes, please, normalize trigger warnings for books!!!
Edward Cullen (Twilight series) and Christian Grey (Fifty Shades of Grey) are RAPISTS. So are characters like Wonder Woman in Wonder Woman 1984 by the way. It feels like most people don't know what rape and consent are. And the horror victims go through is completely overlooked,
I agree that toxic romance that includes or borders on sexual violence is incredibly problematic in some genres, especially what I've seen of romantasy or even YA romance lately.
I don't really read that much fantasy and what little I have hasn't had SA but if there is as much of it as your video and the comment section suggested that is a bit weird. What happened to just putting good old fashion down a dirty sex in a book? I mean I have read a few sci-fi and just out and out trashy pulp novels were the Heroine who fights the baddies and bed handsome men and in some cases women. Now at least in fantasy which should be all about adventure is filled with SA I guess.
It is super prevalent, yes. Personally I'm not a big fan of most overt sexual content in books, but everyone has different thresholds.
"It's realistic"...THAT is the wish fulfillment, not the objectification or glorifying language. "Realistic" in this context equals an excuse or at least a reason that sexual violence is socially acceptable. In fiction it's OK (OK meaning not criminal) precisely because it ISN'T real, but the translation to "real" isn't. Using the term "realistic/unrealistic" in a fantasy setting as a criticism or validation is fucking stupid anyway.
Considering the gatekeeping from agents and publishers who created the market for this kind of writing, your emphasis on prevalence in the writing might be slightly misplaced? I don't know. I mean, if gun manufacturers didn't make weapons that shot 60 rounds in a minute, people wouldn't be able to buy them (not that I'm anti-gun, that's just an example). If there wasn't a market for sexual violence in fantasy, a market invented by the industry, we wouldn't be having this conversation.
Thanks for your views on this. It's definitely something we don't talk about enough.
Thanks for watching! I don't think there's one entity we can blame fully for this prevalence, tbh. There's a lot of factors and involved parties to these scenes being published in novels, both in the traditional and indie spheres.
And you're right, "unrealistic" is an ironic choice when talking about the fantasy genre.